Conference yukon::christian_v7

.41  Andrew...

More words and definitions.  I'm not disagreeing with you Andrew, but I think
we are articulating better the non-differences between us so that we begin
to understand the same language we're using to convey separate ideas.

On being perfect....

Exerpts from _Apostles_to_Welsey_, William Greathouse

     The evidence, therefore, points to a double meaning of perfection.  A
christian may be both perfect and imperfect, depending on the sense in which
the words are used.  A relative perfection is now a possibility through faith
and the Spirit, but final perfection awaits the resurrection (Phil 3:11-12,
20-21).

 a.  Perfection in love.  One of the most important sections on perfection is
Matthew 5:43-48, climaxing with the Master's command, "You, therefore, must be
perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" (RSV).  "Therefore" is the key to
this text.  Jesus is saying, in effect, "As your Father is perfect in love,
sending His blessing upon friend and enemy alike, you must be perfect in your
love toward all men."  It is evident that thislove is the love of agape -
spontaneous, undefeatable good will, arising from the inner life of the person
indwelt by the Spirit.  As such, perfect love is both the gift (Romans 5:5;
8:3-4; John 4:13-17) and command of God (Mark 12:29-31; 1 John 4:21).

     When this love is expressed the law is fulfilled (Matthew 22:40,
1 Timothy 1:5).  "Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who
loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law... Love does no wrong to a neighbor;
therefore love is the fulfilling of the law" (Romans 13:8-10, RSV).  Christian
perfection is perfection in love.

 b.  Perfected Christlikeness.  The final goal of perfection is completed
Christlikeness, which will be God's gift at the coming of Christ (1 John 3:2).
In view of this future goal every Christian must confess with Paul, "Not that I
have already attained, or am already perfected (Philippians 3:12, Wesley's
translation).  "There is a difference between one that is perfect," Wesley
explains, "and one that is perfected.  The one is fitted for the race; the
other, ready to receive the prize."

     ...Just before He was martyred, Ignatius exclaimed, "I that Thee, Lord,
that Thou hast vouchsafed to honor me with a perfect love toward Thee."
Clement of Rome wrote, "Those who have been perfected in love, through the
grace of God, attain to the place of the godly inthe fellowship of those who in
all ages have served the glory of God in perfectness."  And Polycarp, speaking
of faith, hope, and love, wrote: "If any man be in these, he has fulfilled the
law of righteousness, for that his love is far from sin."  Such words as these
contain the germ of the doctrine of Christian Perfection: it is the perfection
of love within the righteousness of faith.  The Epistles of Ignatius speak
again and again of a perfect faith, of a perfect intention, and of a perfect
work of holiness...

     ...The Homiles breathe this spirit of expectancy and confidence in the
sanctifying grace of God.  Quotation upon quotaion could be cited to prove
Marcarius taught the doctrine of inward sanctification whichanticipates at
almost every point the Wesleyan teaching.....

More later...

...Gregory comments:

  Drawing from Him as from a pure and uncorrupted stream, a person will show
in his thoughts such a resemblance to his Prototype as exists between the
water in the running stream and the water taken away from there in a jar.
For the purity of Christ and the purity seen in the person who has a share
in Him are the same, the one being the stream and the other drawn from it.
  "This, therefore, is perfection in the Christian life,... the participation
of one's souls and speech and activities in all the names by which Christ is
signified, so that the perfect holiness, according to the eulogy of Paul,
is taken upon oneself in the whole body and soul and spirit, *continuously
safeguarding against being mixed with evil.*" (emphasis mine)
  The Christian life which is being perfected is one in which the Christian
is exchanging "glory for glory, becoming greater through daily increase, 
ever perfecting himself, and never arriving too quickly at the limit of
perfection.  For this truly is perfection, never to stop growing towards what 
is better and never placing any limit on perfection..."

MM

    Love is the bond of perfection (Colossians 3:14), since it binds the
    other virtues together in perfect unity.  This love is not natural; it
    is a gift of God. ... It is primarily and specifically God's own love,
    which He communicates to man by the infusion of the Holy Spirit.  The
    Spirit Who indwells the Christian community is the Spirit whereby the
    Father loves the Son and the Son the Father.

    Is perfect love possible in this life?  In answering this question,
    Aquinas appeals to the precept of Jesus: "You, therefore must be
    perfect, as your heavenly Father who is in heaven is perfect."
    (Matthew 5:48, RSV)  The Divine Law, he says, does not prescribe the
    impossible.

    But what does the word perfection mean?  Aquinas' answer takes into
    account the two meanings of the Greek word (telios) used in the New
    Testament: (1) completeness, or totality from which nothing is lacking,
    and (2) "fitness to purpose," or "the conformity of a thing to its
    end."

    With respect to the first meaning, only God is absolutely perfect.  But
    Aquinas speaks of human perfection in which a soul loves God as much as
    it possibly can.  Nothing is lacking to the love that can ever be
    there.  Since the possibilities of the soul cannot be fully developed
    in this life, this kind of perfection is not for us as long as we are
    on the way.  We shall have this only in heaven.

    The third perfection refers to the removal of obstacles to the movement
    of love towards God... Such perfection may be had in this life, and in
    two ways.  First, by the removal of man's affections of all that is
    contrary to love, such as mortal sin; and there can be no love apart
    from this perfection, and therefore it is necessary to salvation.
    Secondly, by the removal from man's affections, not only of whatever is
    contrary to love, but also of whatever hinders the mind's affections
    from tending wholly to God.  Love is possible apart from this
    perfection, for instance in those who are beginners and those who are
    proficient.

    This third perfection is a matter of "fitness to purpose," the
    conformity of man to God his true end.

    -- Quoted from the Summa (Question 184, a. 2).

    However, in De perfectione, Aquinas gives a more popular exposition of
    his idea of perfection.  In this work he makes the same distinction
    between the perfection which is necessary to salvation (love excluding
    mortal sin) and perfect love (directing all our affections,
    understandings, workds, and works to God) whichis possible for all and
    incumbent upon all of us as Christians...

    ...Although Aquinas taught a perfection possible for all Christians,
    his ideal lent itself to the secluded life of the monatery.  Those who
    took his teachings seriously would withdraw from the world to live a
    life of quiet contemplation.

    Prior to the Reformation, Francis of Assisi had established "the Third
    Order" and had brought the ideal of holiness within the reach of those
    who are married and involved in the common activities of life.  The
    implicit aim of the Friars Mino was the belief that perfection is
    possible to all Christians, "to awaken in Christian souls everywhere a
    striving after holiness and perfection, to keep the example of a direct
    following of Christ before the eyes of the world as a continuous living
    spectacle, and by self-sacrificing devotion to become all things to
    those who were spiritually adandoned and physically destitute."

    ...For Felenon, then, Christian perfection means perfect love.  God
    cannot be satisfied with a divided heart, or a life of mere lip
    service.  He is concerned about "what is real in our affections."

    "He is a jealous God, who wants no reservations.  All is not too much
    for Him.  He commands us to love Him, and explains it thus: Thou shalt
    love the Lord thy God, with all thy heart, with all thy soul, with all
    thy strength, and with all thy mind.  We cannot, atfer that, believe
    that he is satisified with a religion of only ceremony.  If we do not
    give Him everything, he wants nothing."

Exerpts from _Apostles_to_Welsey_, William Greathouse

    This demand of God for single-mindedness touches the most minute
    details of our lives.  "That's nothing, we say.  Yes, it is nothing,
    but a nothing which is all for you; a nothing which you care enough for
    to refuse it to God; a nothing which you scorn in words so that you may
    have an excuse to refuse it, but, at bottom, it is a nothing which you
    are keeping back from God, and which will be your undoing."  The Love
    of God must bring us to the point where we are entirely His.  "It is
    this detachment from its own will in which all Christian perfection
    consists."  What God wants is a "pure intention, a sincere detachment
    from ourselves."

    Positively, the perfect life is the imitation of Jesus.  "To live as he
    lives, to think as he thought, to conform ourselves to his image is the
    seal of our sanctification."  But Felenon has a word of caution here.
    "Let us not pretend to be able to reach this state by our own strength.
    But... let us say with confidence, I can do all things through Him who
    strengthens me."

    (He brings this chapter to a conclusion with a prayer.)  "I want to
    follow, O Jesus, the road which Thou hast taken!  I want to imitate
    Thee; I can only do so by Thy grace... O good Jesus, who has suffered
    so many shames and humiliations for me, print respect and love of thee
    deeply within my heart, and make me desire their practice!"

    Excerpts from _Apostles_to_Welsey_, William Greathouse

    ...The two initial crises of Christian experience are essential to
    spiritual life.  The uncoverted man must be born anew before he can
    have life in God.  The justified man must be baptized with the Holy
    Spirit if he is to know fullness of life.

    To be regenerated and sanctified wholly is to live in the Spirit; but
    "if we live inthe Spiritl let us also walk in the Spirit."  It is
    imperative that we cultivate the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
    Ceasing from self-effort, we must learn to live and work in the power
    of the indwelling comforter.  Yielding ourselves moment by moment to
    His Lordship, we must learn what it is to love a Spirit-controlled
    life.  Sensing our dependence upon Him, we must discover the privilige
    of being led by the Spirit.  Recognizing our spiritual poverty apart
    from Him, we must learn to pray in the Spirit.  Keeping our hearts open
    to His tender searching, we must permit Him to examine our lives, to
    prune and cultivate them, that we may bring forth the fruit of the
    Spirit...

    Excerpts from _Fullness _of_the_Spirit_, William Greathouse

    ...Many modern Christians are members of First Church, Ephesus.  They
    betray by their walk and by their talk a woeful ignorance of the Holy
    Spirit.  The gift of the Spirit is the lost note in modern
    Christianity.  "Today's church lacks something that the New Testament
    church had.  And that lack is somehow tied up with the Holy Spirit - so
    abundantly mentioned on every page of those records, so manifestly
    present with a power in the life of that church; but so seldom even
    named in modern Christianity, so strange to our everyday experience."
    These are the words of a contemporary Protestant preacher.  It is time
    again that we strike again the New testament note.  As Paul moved into
    Ephesus with instruction and prayer until the little band of Christians
    was baptized with the Spirit, so must the modern church pay the price
    in faithful preaching and prayer until He comes in blessed fullness to
    sanctify and empower His people.  "And when He is come, He will reprove
    the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment" (John 16:8).

    Have you received the Holy Spirit since you believed?  Do you know Him
    in His intimate and precious presence within?  Have your futility and
    failure been swallowed up in His fullness?  Has He come to abide within
    your heart?  If you know that you are His child but are conscious of
    the lack within, the promise is for you.  "If ye love me, keep my
    commandments.  And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you
    another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit
    of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not,
    neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and
    shall be in you" (John 14:15-17)...

    -- Excerpts from _Fullness_of_the_Spirit_, William Greathouse

    To be baptized with the Holy Spirit is to be purified in heart.

    At Pentecost, the disciples of Christ were marvelously transformed from
    fearful, overly sensitive, selfish persons, to fearless, united, and
    Christlike witnesses.  We have the circumstantial evidence in the
    Gospels and Acts, but we are not left to circumstantial evidence.
    Twenty years after Pentecost, Simon Peter is on the witness stand.
    Recounting his recent experience at the home of Cornelius, he says:
    "And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the
    Holy Ghost, even as He did unto us; and put no difference between us
    and them, purifying their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:8-9).

    Here is a most significant and far-reaching Scripture.  Peter, telling
    of an incident at the home of Cornelius, tied this epochal incident
    into a parallel with the Day of Pentecost.  In other words, he made it
    clear that God had put no difference between the Jew and the Gentile,
    doing the same for one that He had performed for the other.  The same
    witness that came on the Day of Pentecost came as well on the household
    of Cornelius.  The same vital results appeared in the new Gentile
    believers as had appeared the Day of Pentecost.  What was it?
    "...purifying their hearts by faith."

    Peter make no reference to the passing phenomena of Pentecost.  Not a
    word concerning the wind, the fire, or the gift of languages.  As
    meaningful as these symbols were, they were but passing manifestations
    of that hour.  The permanent pattern for all time for Pentecost was
    purity of heart through the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

    --  Excerpts from _Fullness_of_the_Spirit_, William Greathouse

    To be baptized with the Holy Spirit is to be empowered.

    "But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and
    ye shall be my witnesses..." (Acts 1:8, ASV).  These words hark back to
    the promise of Jehovah given through Ezekiel: "I will put my spirit
    within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes" (Ezekiel 36:27).
    Power for witnessing, power for life - the two are really inseparable.

    The full blessing of Pentecost is the sure way of becoming a blessing
    to other.  "He that believeth on me," said Jesus, "From within him
    shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38, ASV).  This He said of
    the Holy Spirit.  A heart filled with the Spirit will overflow with the
    Spirit.  It is not your power, but His power.  It is not abstract power
    under your control, but it is a Person, whose presence with you is
    necessary to your possessing and retaining the power.  He has the power
    and you have Him.  When He abides, futility and failure are swallowed
    up by His glorious fullness.

    --  Excerpts from _Fullness_of_the_Spirit_, William Greathouse

    re: 271.56 Mark
    
    Hi Mark,

     I thought to move this over here even though 271 spoke some of
     perfection.
    
     Please excuse the length.  Boy, long already!
    
    �Welcome back, Tony.
    
     Thanks.  It was good for me to stay away for awhile.  I'm not
     sure if its good for me to be back!  ;-)
    
    �I do not think we will be perfected this side of heaven, but we will be
    �continually perfected until we get to heaven.  During that time, we may
    �be tempted, and relying on the Spirit, He has promised that we can
    �endure it.
    
     Yeah, I do think the last generation will be perfected and must be 
     perfected this side of the second coming.

     I started a real nice study on the resurrection.  I've gone through
     every text from Romans to 2 Thess. and wrote down every one that
     refers to the resurrection.  (I expect to get through the entire
     NT.)  Anyway, I found that part of the context of the vast majority
     of texts is _sanctification_.

     Scripture links resurrection and sanctification.

     This was/is a wonderful find (for me) and has been a wonderful study.
     It concurs well with Ezekiel 36 and 37.  Ezekiel 36 is a beautiful
     promise of God sanctifying a group.  Chapter 37 typifies that promise 
     with an illustration which is RESURRECTION, i.e. the dead bones being 
     raised to life.

     The following are reasons why I believe there will be a perfected
     body prior to the physical resurrection:

     1) This promise of spiritual renovation "sanctifies God's name"
        Eze 36:23.  The context is a demonstration involving the right act
        of the will and not bypassing it which God would effectiveley do
        at the physical resurrection.

     2) The Ezekiel passage speaks nothing of changing our flesh from 
        sinful to glorified.  One would think such an important item, if
        a part of the event, would not go unnoticed.
                                                  
     3) Ezekiel 36:26,27 refers to God causing a people to walk in His 
        statutes as a result of a changed heart (again no mention of a
        changed flesh) and also suggesting the act of the will is involved.
  
     4) Ezekiel 36:23 mentions God's people as being sanctified "in you
        before their eyes" thus describing an event wherein both saved
        and unsaved are present which then must precede the physical 2nd
        coming for the unsaved will be destroyed at His appearing.

     5) If I am right about a 'spiritual' resurrection preceding the physical
        resurrection, one would expect references to a 'spiritual' coming
        of Christ in the hearts of His people coincedent with the spiritual
        resurrection and preceding the physical resurrection.  (See for
        example Hosea 6:1-3, 2 Corin 3:18,4:6).  Indeed there are references
        to a 'coming' of Christ which is purely spiritual and whose completion
        coincides with a spiritual resurrection, i.e. one of heart.

     6) The physical resurrection will be (for all practical purposes)
        instantaneous while Ezekiel 37 paints the picture of a spiritual 
        resurrection which is continous (see again Hosea 6:3).

     7) Hebrews exhorts "Let us go on unto perfection" thus if we have some
        perfection presently, the book must refer to a perfection that yet
        awaits.  The whole context of the book does not include any sense
        of a break, i.e. the physical resurrection.  Rather the book is
        filled with allusions to perfection as something attained for examples,
        perfectly entering Christ's rest and being prepared to inhabit Mount
        Zion.

     8) Much of the context of Hebrews with regard to the above-mentioned
        preparation is exhortation.  This implies that our will is involved.

     9) If it is seen that there are biblical references to a resurrection
        other than the physical, one would expect that at the time of the
        completion of such a resurrection, perfection would be accomplished
        (by God in the group) _in the spiritual_ (nonphysical).

     For some resurrection texts, see...

     Rom 1:4,5;1:17;4:13-25;7:4-6;8:10-13;8:31-34;10:9,10;11:11-16;12:1,2;
         13:11-14;14:8-12
     1 Corin 6:13,14;15:1-58
     2 Corin 1:3-11;4:5-5:21;6:1-4,9;7:1-11;13:3-9
     Gal 1:1-5;2:16-21;2:27;5:25,25;6:8;6:14
     Eph 1:15-2:13;2:16;4:7-24;5:1,2;5:8-14;5:25-27
     Phil 2:1-13;2:16,17;3:7-21
     Col 1:19-29;2:11-3:17
     1 Thes 1:8-10;4:13-18;5:1-11

     Some might not relate to directly to resurrection or the link might be
     obscure or I might have thought there was a link when there really
     isn't one!  But, many are fraught with allusions to a body growing
     up and becoming sanctified.

    �Are we in agreement (since you say the "free choice to choose to sin 
    �is not denied")?  Have we articulated the difference sufficiently
    �between Christian perfection and sinless perfection to understand how
    �we each understand the idea?
    
     Excuse me Mark, but I have not read much of the perfection topic (time
     demands).  My reference to perfection equates to perfectly resting in
     Christ and having all unbelief removed from the heart.  The prayer
     "Lord I believe, help Thou mine _unbelief_" would no longer apply in 
     the heart.

                                                       Tony

Note 266.10  38113::BARBIERI
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    �I do not think we will be perfected this side of heaven, but we will be
>    �continually perfected until we get to heaven.  During that time, we may
>    �be tempted, and relying on the Spirit, He has promised that we can
>    �endure it.
>
>     Yeah, I do think the last generation will be perfected and must be
>     perfected this side of the second coming.

  I just want to be clear that when you say "Christian Perfection"
  and when I say the same words "Christian Perfection" we mean two
  different things.

>     The following are reasons why I believe there will be a perfected
>     body prior to the physical resurrection:

  I did not see your reasons as conclusive evidence of what you believe.
  I could easily apply these reasons to what I mean by Christian Perfection
  without being UNABLE to sin, this side of heaven.  I'm sorry, Tony.

Mark

      No need to be sorry Mark!
    
      Still, I thought it worthwhile to share the blessed insight of
      the Word relating resurrection to spiritual renovation.
    
                                                Tony