Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Lorenzo,
    
    Are you looking for a physical description of Satan?  The Bible says he
    was the most beautiful angel.  An angel of light....
    
    Nancy

    ??? Who *wants* to see him?  Better run!
    
    Better to be curious about things less dangerous.
    
    Don/

    I have heard that the best way to train a bank teller to recognize
    counterfeit money is to let them handle the real thing *a lot*.  Then,
    when the fake thing shows up, it stands out like a sore thumb.
    
    In a similar vein, I believe that the best way to recognize satan
    (probably not literally, but his tactics) is to apply ourselves to know
    the Lord and His Word.  Not only will this help to recognize the enemy,
    but it will equip us to withstand him.  "Put on the whole armour of
    God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."
    (Eph. 6:11)
    
    Mark L.

    If memory serves, our only direct command on how to deal with the enemy
    is to resist him (James 4:7). As for how to recognize him, the better
    we know the Truth the more obvious the counterfeit.
    
    	BD�

    I guess I'm speaking more of an appearance in the physical.
    
    Many young men and women were tripped up in life because, they thought
    that they were in love with someone who ended in being the devil in
    disguised. Then they would try to justify the person's wrong, by
    saying: "He or She is REALLY a nice person - I don't know what went
    wrong. He or she was very NICE in the beginning, and then they all of a
    sudden changed". Did they REALLY change, or was he or she really an
    devil converted into an angel of light?.
    
    How can we know him when we see him?
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

Those who have had physical encounters with Satan describe him as a hideous,
black or dark being, often with talons.  When physically present, a Christian
can _feel_ his presence, often in the form of coldness (like a cold wind) or
an extremely negative feeling. Some have reported eyes that glow like at
cat's eyes, and clawed hands and sharp teeth. 

Of course, he does appear as an angel of light, too.

anyway he's no doubt a frightening sight when you see him face to face.

    
    
    I really dont think we have to worry about seeing Satan face to face.
    
    Eric,
    
      I think you have been reading too many scary novels.
    
    ;-) dan

>      I think you have been reading too many scary novels.
    
No, I've been reading first hand accounts of demonic confrontation . . .

Such descriptions aren't merely limited to overactive imaginations.  
Throughout the years of the church, and, yes, even today, people have had
encounters with physical manifestations of the demonic.  People have even been
raped by demons, and have even suffered physical harm.  I subscribe to a list
on visions, and here is a quote from one of the posts (n.b.: the person who
experience this account is the author of the note):

1972 ... Contact and Awareness

We had gotten married in 1977.  The band started in 1982.  But before I go into
this, let's walk down memory lane to 1972, I was 18-19 and had just gotten into
Grahm Jr. College for film production in Boston Mass. (Kenmore Square).  I had
been attending college for a while when I walked into the Paperback Booksmith
in Kenmore (I think).  I was strangely attracted to a book on the occult.  It
was an incredible compendium of knowledge spanning the centuries concering the
hierarchy of demons, witches, invocations, spells, structures....the whole 13
(pun pun!) yards.  After a while though, I found I was beginning to have
nightmares of "something black and deadly" chasing me.  So I hid the book under
my clothes in a drawer.  That didn't work so I wrapped it in plastic and hid it
in the garage, which was removed physically from the house.  That didn't work
so, one night on a full moon, I went out back and dug a pit.  I prtayed for
forgiveness and burned the book.  Finally I could get some sleep....I couldn't
tell if it had been my imagination OR if some sort of gateway had opened simply
due to my bringning the book into the house. A few weeks after I had burned the
book, I had just come out ofo the now-defunct Wax Museum on Boylston Street
when I was stopped by a man with back-length brown hair, 6'8" tall, wearing
black pants ... black turtleneck ...... black cloak.....black boots.....wearing
an antique silver crucifix UPSIDEDOWN on a chain positioned around his heart.
He stopped me and looked me straight in the eye and said, "Lenny I know you,
we'll meet again".  The look in his eye terrified me.  I found out that when
properly motivated, one can run from the Boylston Street subway stop all the
way to Kenmore Square - nonstop! ;^) That's when I found out that I was "known"
by something or someone I had never met before.  . . .

After I moved in with my parents I started to have a recurring dream.  I would
fall asleep and then "wake up" in my dream.  I would actually know that I was
dreaming and then proceed to explore my dream world.  It was a beautiful world.
The sky was gold, the sun was gold-green.  The plants and birds ... I have
never seen them in any book of any country.  Even the plants were different
colors ... everything was pastel shaded.  It was paradisical.  While I would be
walking thru this world, a Darkness would begin to appear from the east and
cover the sky, then the land until I could see nothing.  I couldn't even feel
the ground I had been walking on.  Out of this Darkness a deeper darkness would
coalesce into taloned claws.  Each talon would be 6' feet long, the clawas were
monsterous!  It would begin to chase me and I would run from it walking up in
my bedroom chanting prtions from the Bible out loud!  One night I resolved that
there would be no more running.  That night resolved to destroy "It" or die in
the attempt.  I went to sleep and woke up in my dream, everything happened as
usual only this time when the clawsbegan to reach out to rend my apart, I took
one step backwards ..... extended the palms ofmy hands and began to scream (in
my "dream") something in ancient Hebrew.  A pure white beam of flame descended
from above into the crown of my head .... the fire surrounded my body as 2
brilliant white beams of solid light poured continuously from my hands in the
claws.  As the light poured out me, the claws had already grabbed my left shin
and my left shoulder, the arms of those claws bled black blood when the Light
hit them.  Something screamed in the blackness, I could see it was
disintegrating ....... suddnely I woke up and sat upright in my bed, turned and
noticed the time and wroite it down on paper then looked oiut of my bedroom
window.  I saw the complete outlines of a "man" floating in a crouched position
outside my window.  "It" had cat's eyes and sharply pointed ear with clawed
hands and rather sharp teeth.  As it smiled, it vanished ... sort of poofed out
of existence.

I was rattled.....terrified actually!  I turned on the light.  On my left shin
was an 8" freshly made deep cut bleeding freely.  On my left shoulder was a 3.5
inch black/purple bruise.  These are the two areas the thing grabbed me by in
my "dream".  I was so terrified I didn't leave my bedroom for 3 days.

========== [end of quote]

So how can we discern when a particular human form is a demon?  My answer
would be, by a sense of evil surrounding the "person" -- maybe an unsettling
feeling or a strangeness.  Such an entity would have a hatred for things holy:
a church, a cross or crucifix, a Bible, or whatever.  (Don't laugh, it's true.)
The other sign is: what is the "person" leading someone to?  Does s/he lead the
human into sin or impure things?

I recall a story in _The Way of a Pilgrim_ by an anonymous 19th-century Russian
Orthodox pilgrim about a man who became friends with another man, and they
would go out and do things, although the man's friend would encourage him to do
some things a holy person shouldn't do, not necessarily anything really bad,
but he began to seduce him into small sinful things.  Well, this friendship
continued for a while, until one time they were in the man's house in the
library.  His friend seemed very uncomfortable in the room, and eventually
asked if they could go elsewehre.  The man wondered why, and his friend said
that there was a book bothering him in the room, and pointed to it.  The man
said, "Oh, that's the Bible" and took it down and opened it.  POOF! His
"friend" disappeared instantlyu, and the man realized that he had befriended a
demon who was leading him astray.

While there are incarnate demons who sometimes attempt to court someone to
lead them astray, I should think that this is extremely rare.  More often than
not, a person's infatuation simply blinds them to the evil of the one they are
infatuated with, and it may take a while for them to see how evil the person
really is.  People can get pretty evil.  There might even be a matter of
demonic obsession/oppression/possession, rather than an outright demonic
incarnation.

Eric

There is a good book out by an evangelical that is the result of very careful
scientific research and case-study, and also a very modern study, on 
demonology, and it's called simply DEMON POSSESSION.  It's been a while since
I've read it but I'll glance over it again tonight.

I've also read accounts of demonic manifestations plaguing folks who were
trying to escape the New Age movement.  Mike Warnke and Frank Peretti books
aside!

    
    
     Eric,
    
      You dont have to convince me of that demonic activity is real and
    active in today's world.  The problem I have is that Satan is unlike
    God in that he is not omnipresent.  What does Satan look like? I dont
    think anyone here has seen him personally.  Dreams and novels about
    satan are one thing, demonic activity and satan are quite another.
    
      I am not discounting the story told in your previous reply, if
    someone plays around with the occult they can expect to be demonically
    attacked, was the description that of satan himself or of a demon?? 
    
      Dan  

> What does Satan look like? I dont
>    think anyone here has seen him personally.  Dreams and novels about
>    satan are one thing, demonic activity and satan are quite another.

I don't have on hand accounts of physical encounters with Satan himself, but
I have read them, and it has happened, I only wish we had a person on this list
so holy as to merit a physical encounter with Satan.  (Those I have heard who
have encountered Satan are mostly a handful of extremely holy people throughout
the years.)

No, Satan is not omnipresent, but he's got 1/3 of all the angels created, and
I'm sure they can keep tabs on us pretty well.  I have no clue if there are
more demons than there are human beings.  My guess is that while they are not
omnipresent, they _do_ have a supernatural means of instant communication,
such that they can alert Satan to prey he might be interested in.  And, not
being in the material plane, I'm sure they can zip around the world in zero
time, although they are probably limited to a certain location in space, which
is why we can pray against them to leave us.

I wonder if they multitask ;-)

Eric

    Malichi Martin's book "Hostage To The Devil," has five documented
    accounts of people being possessed and saved through an exorcism.

    Demonic possession just doesn't happen in a flash, it is a process. The
    thing Satan wants most from the person, is the greatest gift God has
    given them and that is their free will. Once the person surrenders their
    will the demon is  able to take over the person. 

    I would recommend praying and reading Scripture in order to avoid being
    tricked by a demon. Jesus said, "pray unceasingly." Even if your not
    conscious of your prayers, Satan is and will stay away.

    
     Jim

    Malichi Martin's book "Hostage To The Devil," has five documented
    accounts of people being possessed by  evil spirits. The author, a
    former Jesuit Priest, gives in depth detail of demonic possession 
    as well as the details of the possessed persons life prior to possession. 
    He also gives a detailed report on the priests who perform the exorcisms
    and the exorcism itself. The book is quit scary !

    Demonic possession just doesn't happen in a flash, it is a process. The
    thing Satan wants most from the person, is the greatest gift God has
    given them and that is their free will. Once the person surrenders their
    will, the demon is  able to take over the person. 

    I would recommend praying and reading Scripture in order to avoid being
    tricked by a demon. Jesus said, "pray unceasingly." Even if your not
    conscious of your prayers, Satan is and will stay away.


     Jim

    "Let brotherly love continue.  Be not forgetful to entertain strangers;
    for thereby some have entertained angels unawares."  Heb. 13:2.
    
    I wonder what this means and if it means what it appears to say, can
    you also entertain demons.
    
    Interesting way God spoke to me in this string.  
    Speaking of the man who had his fathers wife.
    "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh,
    that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus." 1st Cor
    5:5.
    
    The most miserable time of my saved life was June, 1983 when I decided
    to take a vacation from walking with God.  I fell into sin at that time
    and then God brought another person into my life.  She was a young lady
    whom I befriended and spent the whole summer with.  It was actually a
    fairly innocent relationship and I simply fell in love with her. 
    Early September, she left for school.  We both cried as she was going
    900 miles away.  We wrote for about a month.  I kept writing, she
    suddenly stopped.  She became very cold to me and when I saw her at a
    mall during Thanksgiving, she wasn't the same woman.  The woman I knew
    was as if dead to me.  Broke my heart for the whole year.
    
    Moral of the story - When we decide to take a vacation from God, He
    finds interesting ways of showing us how we treat Him.  God in a way
    delivered me over to Satan for a small taste of living without Him.  I
    have never fallen into that mindset again.  I stumble on occasion but I
    sure Love Jesus now!  I confess, he forgives and forgets!!
    
    Jack-Who-Now-Has-A-Wonderful-Wife/Life!!!!

Hi Eric,

The sort of reading matter you mention is sipritually destructive.  It 
focuses the mind on the enemy, and his 'apparent' power, rather than upon 
the LORD, and his real strength.

Philippians 4:8 says:
 "Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is
  right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable
  - if anything is excellent or praiseworthy - think about these things."

Bear in mind that the devil is a defeated foe.

 "If the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed"
							John 8:36

 "...now the prince of this world will be driven out.  But I, when I am 
  lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."
							John 12:32

 "Take heart, I have overcome the world"
							John 16:33

 "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work"
							1 John 3:8

 "The One Who is in you is greater tha the one who is in the world"
							1 John 4:4

If it sometimes seems that the enemy has a lot of say in what goes on, bear 
in mind that Jesus has not yet returned to fulfil all righteousness, 
because when He does, there is no room at all left for sin.  That implies 
final judgement, and doom for many.  The fact that sin still exists is 
merely an indication that this is still the day of grace; there is still 
room for people to come to salvation.  There is still room for the 
Christian to progress in sanctification.

Meanwhile, the devil is already a defeated foe.  he has to ask permission 
even to tempt us (cf Luke 22:31), and also to affect us materially or 
physically (Job 1:9-12, 2:4-6).  The trouble is that we tend to walk too 
near the edge of minimum holiness...  And require a merciful discipline 
which moulds our spirits for eternal holiness (Hebrews 12:6-11).  However, 
such discipline doesn't include a physical walk with the devil, unless the 
individual has gone so far from the LORD that their conscience is seared, 
amd they are deaf to His voice; and can only be impacted by a shock of 
realisation of how far they have gone from the LORD, as in 1 Corinthians 
5:5 and 1 Timoyty 1:20.  The ultimate in this *Christian's* rejection of 
his own growth is in 1 John 5:16, the 'sin that leads to death', as per
James 1:15, where the LORD has completed all the spiritual development a
person will accept, and all that can be done is to remove them from earth,
as per Ananias and Sapphira, in Acts 5. 

In the above, I've been referring to the position of the Christian only.

						God bless
							Andrew

> The sort of reading matter you mention is sipritually destructive.  It 
> focuses the mind on the enemy, and his 'apparent' power, rather than upon 
> the LORD, and his real strength.

Our focus should be on the Lord, as a soldier's focus should be on his 
commander, but a solider is only partially effective if he has no clue about
the tactics of the enemy and the dangers in the battle.

> Bear in mind that the devil is a defeated foe.

The war is won, but the battle continues.

"For we struggle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against
the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the
spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Eph 6)

1 Peter 5:8: "Be self controlled and alert.  Your enemy the devil prowls around
like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.  Resist him, standing firm
in the faith, becaue you know that your brothers throughout the world are
undergoing the same kind of sufferings."

Our first task as Christians is to rid ourselves of sin and conquer temptation.
I have found that spiritual warfare is essential in the battle against
temptation, and in many cases, without conducting spiritual warfare, freedom
from sin cannot be achieved.  Once I began studying the ways and tatics of the
enemy -- by the very wise and holy words of the Eastern Desert Fathers, who
were hermits who lived in the 4th to 7th century who were on the front lines of
the spiritual battle -- I was no longer at a disadvantage in the battle against
sin but rather was able with the grace of God to defeat the enemy's attempt to
destroy me.  (Many of these Fathers had physical encounters with demons and/or
Satan, although they are not the only ones.)

While a morbid curiosity and fascination with the demonic is destructive,
those who fight the battle and desire to be pure must study the tactics of
the Enemy so that they may escape them and fulfill our obligation to "put to
death the misdeeds of the body" so that we might live (Romans 8:13).

There are two errors one can make concerning Satan: Either to ignore him, or
to give him too much credit.  We've gotta walk the line between those two
things.

Eric

    Another thought with regard to the believer and satanic/demonic
    encounter.  I beleive that a believer who is walking in the light
    (i.e., in true fellowship with the Lord) is protected from such powers.
    "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated
    us into the kingdom of his dear Son:" (Col. 1:13).  "For this purpose
    the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the
    devil." (1 John 3:8)  "...but he that is begotten of God keepeth
    himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18).
    
    This doesn't mean that the enemy won't try to discourage us or bring
    fear into our lives.  We need to be watchful and careful, lest we,
    through carelessness, allow the enemy to gain a foothold in our lives.
    
    1 Peter 5
      8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as
        a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom hemay devour:
      9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same
        afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in
        the world.
     10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal
        glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while,
        make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
      
    As Andrew said, the lion may roar, but if we are looking with spiritual
    vision and utilizing our spiritual armor and weapons (Eph 6), we can
    see that he has no teeth.  "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist
    the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)
    
    Mark L.

� There are two errors one can make concerning Satan: Either to ignore him, or
� to give him too much credit.  We've gotta walk the line between those two
� things.

Agreed.  The delicate balance is quite where that line is!  However, I 
believe that certain of your examples in earlier replies focus too much on 
the enemy, and not enough on the LORD.

I believe it was Smith Wigglesworth, who woke up one night to find the 
devil seated at the fireside in his room.  He sat up and looked at him, 
and said "Oh! It's only you!" and turned over and went back to sleep.

I believe that showed Smith's confidence in, and closeness of walk with the
LORD.  No preoccupation with what sort of combustion was going on round the 
fire.

I haven't heard of the "Eastern Desert Fathers", but I do not believe they 
found essentials of spiritual warfare that we need, but which are not in the 
Word of God.  If they found a deeper understanding of the Word, and how to 
apply it to our hearts to be effective, that's something that might benifit 
us all...

If the LORD takes you into areas which most people do not encounter, it is
between you and Him.  To most, who are not involved with anything like such 
areas, focussing on the enemy's activity in this way is more likely to 
arouse that 'morbid curiosity and fascination with the demonic' which you 
recognise as destructive...  Better to concentrate upon the LORD, so that 
He can equip us to occupy whatever area He has for us, and we can maximise 
our effectiveness there.

							God bless
								Andrew

	Eric, do you know Greg Griffis by chance?



Glen

I know enough about Eric and Greg to know that this is probably not an innocent
nor complimentary question.  May be it is time I checked back in to SOAPBOX.
I knew it was getting too Christian in here.

Mark

re .17 

	You do not believe "True Christians" can have a demon.

One only has to look at the Bible to attain the lengthily list of those afflicted
with demons. We'll start with Peter "get the behind me Satan" and Judas "I have 
not lost one except the one vexed of the Devil"

The best thing we as Christians could do for Satan is not believe we can be
bothered by him 
" I beleive that a believer who is walking in the light
    (i.e., in true fellowship with the Lord) is protected from such powers."
Statments like this guarantee you a free ride because you are of no value to
the army of God when you have your head stuck in a hole. We need to wake up and
smell the coffee and then get in the battle. The enemy has nothing to do but 
give us grief. Why would he want to torment those he allready owns. They cause
their own problems by not accepting the salvation offered. We are the main focus
of the attack IF we are in the battle. All the enemy has to do for the lost is
provide oppertunities for sin and they will do it willingly. That is their 
nature. He must purposly attack us to get us to stray if we are focused on Christ
and what he is asking of us.

Dave

    Dave,
    
    I make a *clear* distinction between being involved in spiritual
    warfare and being under satanic/demonic oppression/possession.  The New
    Testament is quite clear that believers are battling on a spiritual
    realm, that we are not to be "ignorant of his devices", and that he is
    seeking to devour.  On the other hand, I believe that the Lord will
    protect His own, who are walking in obedience to Him.  How do you
    interpret "he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked
    one toucheth him not." (1 John 5:18)", or, "And every spirit that
    confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:
    and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it
    should come; and even now already is it in the world. Ye are of God,
    little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is
    in you, than he that is in the world." (1 John 4:3-4).
    
> You do not believe "True Christians" can have a demon.

    Absolutely correct.  Where the Spirit of God is indwelling and in
    control, there is none stronger that can take control.
    
    Mark L.
    

    
    Thanks Mark, I whole hearted agree.

re .22

I would recommend "Defeating Dark Angles" by Kraft. To hold that you are unable
to be 
	>under satanic/demonic oppression/possession.
		 because you believe in Jesus Christ is wishfull thinking at 
best. Evan the demons believe in Jesus, remember that one. What about Job? Who
do you think was at the helm when David "a man after Gods own heart" comitted
Adultry and then had her husband killed to cover it up? Do you think Jim Baker
and Jimmy Swagert started out not believing? Get real man. The enemy is out
to snag any Christian he can with any weakness he can find. It only takes
one leak (secret sin) left unattended in the diving bell to sink it. Jesus spent
40 days being oppressed in the desert and if God did not spare him from it He 
sure won't spare you from it. You or I never will be anywhere near as "True
a Christian" as Jesus.

It just makes good sence not to ignore your emeny's abilities Just in case
God decides to say to Satan "Have you noticed my servent Mark Lovik." You
will at least be aware of where the attack is comeing from and not be lost in
the "How can this be happening to me" syndrome. That has scuttled more
"True Christians" than anything I know of. 

Dave

    
    
     There is NO evidence that a Christian can be POSESSED by demons
    whatsoever.  On the contrary there is more evidence that we CANNOT be.
    I think we already discussed this somewhere else.  We certainly can be
    attacked by the the evil one, but lets not give credit to demons when
    we should be recognizing that committing SIN (as in Jimmy Swaggart et
    al) is a willful desire of the heart!!!  Was David demon posessed when
    he committed the sin of adultry? It is not recorded that he was.  He
    did purpose in his heart of that which he did.  That is why the
    scriptures say; Thy Word have I hid in my HEART that I might NOT sin
    against thee.  Is all sin a result of temporarily becomming demon
    posessed? I think not. 

    
    >Evan the demons believe in Jesus, remember that one. 
    
      Yes, so how does that speak to demon possession?
    
    >What about Job?
    
      God was in control here NOT satan.
    
    >Who do you think was at the helm when David "a man after Gods own
     heart" comitted Adultry and then had her husband killed to cover it
     up?
    
     David was, not God. Think about it.
    
    Dan 

    Well, I believe that Christians can be demonized or demon influenced...
    but not possessed.
    
    This possibility would negate my salvation.  Let's take a look at this
    from the OSAS view and the YCLI [You Can Lose It] view.  Those of us
    who believe OSAS can look at the statement above and even understand
    backsliddenness without loss of salvation.  The YCLI group says well
    when a person loses their salvation [though once saved] they can become
    demon possessed.
    
    The reason I believe that Christians can be demon influenced reflects
    in scriptures that have already been referenced here i.e., "the "Get
    the behind me Satan" verses.  The conversation that Jesus had with
    Satan shows that Satan was trying to influence Christ.
    
    Nancy

    re: .24
    
    Well, I forgot some things I needed for my trip this evening, so I had
    to stop by the office.  Thought I'd answer a couple of things here:
    
> To hold that you are unable
> to be  >under satanic/demonic oppression/possession.
> because you believe in Jesus Christ is wishfull thinking at best.
    
    Please go back and see if I *ever* made such a statement.  I have said
    that it is a believer *who is walking in subjection and obedience to
    the Lord* who will be protected.  A believer who is walking carelessly
    and/or in sin is another story completely.
    
> Do you think Jim Baker
> and Jimmy Swagert started out not believing? Get real man.
    
    Let's be real.  Do you think that Baker and Swaggert were walking in
    obedience and submission to the Lord during the time of their blatant
    sins?  I would say that they were walking in disobedience and
    carelessness, and indeed, such give ample opportunity for the enemy to
    work.  I will not say that they were demon possessed, though.
    
>Just in case
>God decides to say to Satan "Have you noticed my servent Mark Lovik."
    
    There are few honors that I would consider being lesser, than to have
    God say this of me to Satan, as He did of Job.
    
    Mark L.

Not every human failing is the fault of your parents.
And not every sin is the fault of being demonically attacked.
Sometimes human failings are the fault of our own selfishness.
Someties sin is the result of self gratifications, without any
help from outside of ourselves. The carnal nature is built
in since Adam and we need no assistance to commit sin.

Demon possession is specific and distinct from temptation and influence.
I would not used the word "influence" for Satan's tempatation of Christ,
for Jesus was not influenced to continue his mission; he was tempted
to abort it, taking the easy way out.

"The devil made me do it," won't be a viable excuse on judgment day.
All of us are culpable for our decisions, and very few are given over
to demon possession.

Mark

I agree that the closer you get to God, the more easily you'll 
recognize counterfeits.

My encounters with the evil one have not required much discernment
to recognize him (or one of his messengers).  They have come in the 
form of satanic attacks through dreams and "half-dreams", by which I 
mean a strange state between sleeping and waking that I am unable to 
describe any more clearly.  Maybe there's already a note on dreams?

In any case, they were NOT fun.  Pray that you aren't put through 
such trials!  I won't go into any details as to what the attacks are 
like, but in hearing others share their experiences in this area, a few
similarities are worth sharing as relate to the original noter's
questions.

Satan, or a messenger, brings with him an aura of malevolence,
evil, and fear.  You find that your flesh is no help to you in such 
encounters, no matter whether you're a Christian or not (see previous 
replies for scripture references about the powers we struggle against).

The only way I've been able to overcome the evil presence, which
comes from without as opposed to within as New Agers would argue,
is to invoke the power of Jesus.  His very name seems to be endowed
with great power to which "all knees in heaven and on earth will
bow".  Its really amazing, but just speaking the name Jesus has been
sufficient for me.  Satan seems to have given up bothering me since
he's discovered that the Jesus in me is greater than he is.

There's an interesting book written by Warren Smith entitled 
"The Light that was Dark" that describes his journey through the 
New Age/Metaphysical religions to a discovery that the name of Jesus 
was his only escape from such malevolent spirits, that were "channelled"
by fellow New Agers, and is how God called him to a saving faith in Jesus.

I believe that any encounter with the evil one, no matter what form
he comes in, can be handled by speaking the name of Jesus.

Hope this helps,
Steve

    In her book, Something More, Catherine Marshall relates two separate
    incidences of great similarity that were told to her by two close and
    trusted friends. They actually prompted her to explore more thoroughly
    her own beliefs and knowledge about Satan. Thought they might be of
    interest here.
    
    
    
    >The first incident was in a letter from Lamar.
    
    ...On this particular Saturday, an acquaintance afflicted with a
    creeping paralysis so that he was mobile only in his wheelchair had
    been visiting in our home.
    
    Dick attended services in our church and had been prayed for often at
    his own request at healing services - with no apparent results.
    
    Dinnertime approached and my wife asked him to stay to dinner. Ten
    o'clock came, ten-thirty. Still our guest made no move to leave. By
    then I had shared everything I knew to share with him.
    "Dick," I told him, "tomorrow's another day." Reluctantly, our guest
    left and my wife and I went to bed.
    
    During the night I dreamed that I was still talking to Dick.  This was
    one of those crystal-clear things; even the words I spoke to Dick,
    "Have you ever heard a word, Dick, that comes down to us in many
    churches -'exorcism'? Do you know what it means?"
    
    I woke up with a start and my voice not only had awakened my wife, but
    she actually jumped about a foot off the bed.
    
    As I opened my eyes, my attention was drawn to a figure standing in the
    opening of the closet, the door having been left widely ajar. He was
    tall and lean with the statuesque, stately figure of a young man. His
    silhouette was sharp because he seemed to be dressed all in black.
    
    But it was his face to which my attention was drawn. He had cropped
    black hair, high cheekbones, a pointed chin - clean shaven - piercing
    eyes that were glowering at me with rage. It was a face full of evil. 
    Instantly, I knew this was Satan.
    
    I was chilled and frightened. All I wanted was to get him out of that
    room. From somewhere deep in me came the words, "In the name of Jesus
    Christ, begone! Satan, go!"
    
    Even as I stared within a few seconds he disappeared.
    
    Later on, I went to see Dick and found out that he had been deeply
    involved in the world of the occult. He even had two spirits whom he
    called by name and who were now so familiar that they would wait upon
    him in various ways. When Dick flatly refused to submit to exorcism, I
    began to see why no amount of prayer effort or caring had worked for
    him: while he wanted to be healed physically, he did not want to let go
    his love affair with the occult. The last I heard of Dick, he had
    stopped coming to church.
    
    You know me so well you'll realize that I'm not the type given to
    visions. But this experience has done one thing: since then I've never
    had any slight doubt about the existence of Satan."
    
    My instant reaction was "How wild!" The experience may have settled the
    matter of Satan as an incarnate spirit for Lamar, but for me it raised
    a lot of questions. Was Lamar telling me that he had actually seen a
    creature - Satan?  If I hadn't know Lamar for some years and eaten many
    a meal in his home, I might have written his "vision" off as the
    hallucination of a disturbed person. But this particular friend's
    level-headedness and love for life were in total contrast to the
    strange, dark, and unappealing world of his nocturnal experience. I
    wanted nothing so much as to slam the door on that world.
    
    But the very next week while in the midst of a long recorded interview
    with Jennie (whom I have know well for five years or so) came another
    story. Here it is as I took it from the tape:
    
    On a particular night I went to bed, then later was awakened by a light
    coming in my room. At the foot of my bed stood this man about six feet
    two. He had a black butch haircut and dark features and eyes. He just
    stood there looking at me.
    
    Now since I came to know Jesus eight years ago, I've had many problems,
    yet I've never known such an out-and-out fear as I knew it at that
    moment. Through my mind went the thought, "Oh my God, who is that?"
    
    The thought had no sooner crossed my mind that I knew that Jesus
    Himself was standing beside me protectively on the right-hand side of
    my bed. And strange thing, He had His staff in His hand. As if in
    direct answer to the question in my mind, He explained the dark man
    standing at the foot of the bed. "He is the personification of Man."
    
    Well, I'd never heard that word before, but I knew what it meant. My
    immediate reaction was, "I've got to get up out of bed and call someone
    to pray for me."
    
    That too, brought a response. It was like the Lord saying, "No, you've
    got to face him sooner or later." Only please understand that this was
    not in external words - it was all interior.
    
    So I stayed in bed and screwed up my courage to look at the dark man
    again. He stood there unmoving, radiating - what shall I call it? -
    the personification of evil. I couldn't have been more grateful for the
    feeling of Jesus' presence and the security of that staff in His hand.
    Then Jesus said, "He has to appear to you personally so that you can
    learn that everything that the devil and man can do to you are not
    going to harm you as long as you stay close to Me. Don't ever again let
    any of his life live in you or have any power over you."
    
    As I began letting my mind roam over all the wonderful changes that had
    come to me in the last eight years and the fullness of my life in
    Christ, that personification of evil standing at the foot of the bed
    was instantly gone. Then I went to sleep, peacefully and lovingly.
    
    Two details of my friend Jennie's description struck me especially: the
    phrase "the personification of Man" and her insistence that in her
    vision Jesus was holding a staff. I wondered if a staff in His hand had
    significance in connection with moments when we face evil?
    
    Beyond that, my emotional reaction to Jennie's confrontation with Satan
    was the same resistance I had felt to Lamar's experience. Still - here
    were two friends whom I knew to be wise and solid persons. I trusted
    them completely, yet they had presented me with what I regarded as
    "far-out" stories...<
    
    Catherine Marshall goes on to do research on Satan, starting with
    Scripture, and taking the stance that his appearance is of less importance 
    than his character. Some of what she discovered has already been entered 
    in the Spiritual Warfare topic, note 42.38.
    
    I agree with what has already been said here by various folks, that we
    are to be aware of Satan, but not to give him more credit for strength
    and power than he merits. He is a dangerous spirit, and we need to put
    on the full armor of God to deal with him. However, he is also a
    spirit defeated by the power and sacrifice of Jesus Christ, and as
    Christians, we need not fear him.
    
    Rebecca
    
    
    Excerpt from Catherine Marshall, Something More, (New York, Avon Books,
    1974), pg. 103-106.
                                                        

Thanks Rebecca.  Appreciated.

						Andrew

                    
    There is a very good book entitled "People Of The Lie", by M.Scott
    Peck, M.D.  He is Christian - albeit a liberal one - and writes about
    his participation in an exorcism.    
    
    Mostly though, he writes about the less-known and less-seen evil that
    exists in our society today, in many cases he has seen through his
    practice in psychiatry over several decades.  Parents deliberately
    abusing children, and how this affects their lives, and so on. 
    
    Peck is also the author of "The Road Less Traveled", "What Return Can I
    Make?" (a Christian-specific work, and quite good), "The Different
    Drum", and he has just come out with yet another book that talks about
    civility as a way of life vs. the current material, superficial society
    that still prevails in our culture.
    
    The conclusion that he comes out with at the end of the book "People Of
    The Lie", is that the only way we will overcome evil is through Love. 
    Or, as the Bible puts it, "Be ye not overcome with evil, but overcome
    evil with love."
    
    Cindy

>    Or, as the Bible puts it, "Be ye not overcome with evil, but overcome
>    evil with love."
    
    Obligatory mis-quote correction: :-)
    
    Romans 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

    Mark L.

    If I may speak from my experience, I have seen the enemy, and it was
    me, while I was looking in the mirror. Although I do not believe 
    Christians can be "possesed" by Satan, and any other of his fallen angels, 
    I do believe we (if we allow) can be seriously influenced by them. For
    the example given earlier when Jesus spoke to Satan (Not Peter),
    although it was Peter's voice, it seems Peter in a moment of weakness
    yielded to Satan.
    
    Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servents in
    obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin to death,
    or of obedience to righteousness.
    
    I have been "used" by the adversary many times in this life. It has
    caused much pain, and suffering to others. I did not intentionally do
    anything to hurt anyone. I have also allowed God to minister to others
    through me, causing even at times, souls to be saved by grace.
    
    Romans 7:18 For I know in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth no good
    thing; for to will is present with me; but (how) to perform that which
    is good I find not.
    
    As in heaven, where God has an order to things, so it is also in the
    realm of this world. There is the leader, aka Satan, with his order of
    things. He has his generals, majors, etc...
    
    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
    principalities (Privates-Master Sergeants?) against powers, (next rank
    up), against the rulers of darkness of this world (next rank up)
    against spiritual wickedness in high (or heavenly) places.(next rank).
    
    So it seems we, the body of Christ, soldiers as it may be, also have
    our ranks. Jesus is the head, and we are the body. I think I am the
    toe, which is used in kicking devil butt. As I have an anger, but not
    at God, as it was for the years when I shook my fist at the heavens,
    and swore vehemently at the one who loves us so. I thank God for His
    great forgiveness, as if he had done as I had asked (Go ahead! Hit me
    with a bolt of lightening!), I would not be here today.
    
    I could go on for hours, with what the Lord has taught me, even in the
    years when I was backslidden, but will wait to see what response comes
    from this note.
    
    In His love, grace, and protection! 8^)
    
    Bob

    .36
    
    Unlike the PC crowd, you have taken responsibility for your actions and
    not *blamed* them on someone else [most popular, a parent].  
    
    Oftimes I think we give Satan too much credit in this life.  I believe
    that most of the time it is *SELF* that penetrates our walk with God,
    as Romans 7 indicates.  
    
    Ownership awareness is a key issue to victorious Christian living.
    
    Thanks for the entry Bob, very insightful.  Beware, there are YCLI [You
    can lose it] proponents who participate in this file. :-) :-)
    
    Nancy

    Bless you Nancy, and thank you for your words of encouragement. For
    many years I placed the blame on my father, until God brought me to the
    place of "Forgive them for they know not what they do".
    
    YCLI? Did they not read Jude 1:24: Now to Him who is able to keep you
    from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His
    Glory with exceeding joy.
    
    Or: John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy
    name that thou gavest to me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but
    the son of perdition, that the scriptures might be fulfilled.
    
    God knows who are His, and hasn't lost any yet, that He didn't already
    plan on loosing. If I were a YCLI, I'd be wondering where I stood.
    
    Praise God for his faithfulness to his own, of which I am, but
    certainly not because of anything I have done. Only by His grace,
    amazing grace alone.
    
    Bob

    
    Earlier in my walk (or should I say constant stumbling) I was taught 
    the importance of submitting one's self to the authority God has ordained
    us to be under.
    
    Romans 12:1-2
    
    I beseech thee therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye
    present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God,
    which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world,
    but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove
    what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God.
    
    Colossians 1:10-14
    
    That ye might walk worthy of the Lord, unto all pleasing, being fruitful
    in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;Strengthened
    with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience, and
    longsuffering with joyfullness; Giving thanks unto the Father, which
    hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in
    light; Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath
    translated us into the kingdom of his dear son.
    
    So, in submitting ourselves under the hand of God, and subjecting
    ourselves to the authorities, he has placed over us (minister, husband, 
    boss, law officials, government officials etc...) in obedience to God, He 
    keeps us out from under the powers of darkness.
    
    There is (to the unbelievers, or children of disobedience) the powers
    they are subject to. One, or many fallen angels over the individual,
    one or many over the houshold, one or many over the neighborhood, one
    or many over the town/city, one or many over the county/state, one or
    many over the country, all reporting to Satan. He is not omnipresent,
    therefore must rely on the chain of command, for information, for
    planning his attacks/counterattacks. I know not what the number of
    fallen angels that are under his command, except 1/3 of all the
    heavenly host. So, he is first of all, outnumbered, and as Christianity
    continues to flourish, he is very strained, trying to do all things at
    once.
    
    Unlike our commander, who has no end to his power, or end to his means,
    Satan does. So let us walk in the victory Jesus provided for us,
    praising God, and being thankful at all times, doing the will of the
    Father, as he instructs us to do, through his word, and the
    instruction, and discipline of God in the person of The Holy Spirit.
    
    For we are more than conquerers in Him who loves us so.
    
    In his love, by his grace,
    
    Bob