Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hi Jim,
    
    I was wondering have you been reading Soapbox? :-)  You know almost all
    your questions have been discussed in that forum.  I have no problem
    with you asking here, not at all, but was a little surprised.
    
    BTW, most of the folks that answer the questions over there live over
    here too. :-)
    
    Nancy

    Hi,
    
    Although a lot has been covered,within years,about 
    those questions,I will try to give some quick answers.
    Maybe this will result into some in depth discussions
    about those items ,who can be very interesting when looked
    from another point of view.
    
    
    >>>Who wrote the bible?
    
    40 men.  They vary from farmers up to kings.
    
    >>>Was it divinely inspired or the work of men trying to
       understand their world?
    
    It was divinely inspired. In the 66 books that form the canon
    you will find sentences like "The Holy Spirit convey me......"
    
    >>>Who today has the right to edit it?  No-one!!!
    
    >>>Is there a bible that has not changed since
       it was written?
    
       It depends on the definition from your point of
       view, "not changed since it was written"
    
        You have to have to know that the bible is
        divided into the Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures,Nowaday
        called the old testament.
    
        And the Greek Scriptures called the new testament.
    
    
    >>>I understand the bible was written over many hundreds of 
       of years, is that true?
    
       Well the bible is many thousands years old.
       The first five books were started About 1513 B.C.E.
       That is on the one dimensional line ==> (-1513).
    
    >>>finally, does the old testament have precedence over
       the new when it comes to religious questions?
    
       No. The new testament can't live without the old testament.
       And vica versa :The old testament can't live without
       the new one.
    
       They refer constantly to each other.
    
       I hope that these answers will led to a better understanding
       of the bible.
                                                alex.

Hi 
If you are humoungously serious about getting an indepth answer
to your questions I would recommend reading "Evidence that demands
a verdict" by Josh McDowell. I got it on paperback for ten quid
(approx $15). Okay it's written by a Christian but if I'm correct
this guy became a Christian after failing to disprove parts of 
the bible.

Erich
    

    re .1 Yes I do read the soap but I NEVER expect to get a serious
    answer to a religous question there.
    
    re.2 Thank you
    
    re.3 I will look for that book this week. Thanks.

Jim,
  See also notes 144 (especially reply 3 about the various versions of
the Bible - King James, New International, New American Standard, etc])
and 71.

71 deals with Bible difficulties
144 deals with versions of the Bible.

Mark 

I believe that Josh McDowell was always a believer.

The person who wrote "Who Moved the Stone?" (if that was
indeed the title :-) ) became a believer in his attempt
to disprove Christianity as a reasonable religion.

  >Was it divinely insipired...?

This conference is founded on the belief that the Bible was
divinely inspired.

This belief comes from the claims of the writings themselves
which claim to be from God.  The claims (both explicit and
implicit) are extremely numerous and, in my opinion, are so
intertwined in the writings that to deny their validity is to
deny that these authors had *any* authority from God (or
true knowledge of God)

In this conference and in past versions, there are numerous
discussions about this point.  Hopefully, someone will provide
a reference (I don't have much time right now) so you can
look at them.

  >WHo today has the right to edit it? Is there a bible that
  >has not changed since it was written?
  
We have over 5,000 manuscripts and fragments of the Bible.
No two are exactly the same.  The words that are in question
in the Bible are well under 1%.  No major doctrine is in
doubt because of these differences in manuscripts.

  >Finally, does the old testament have precedence over the
  >new when it comes to religous questions?

What God has said is true regardless of whether it was before or
after Jesus' birth.  However, much of what was said was specific
to a specific time or specific situation (e.g. the nation of
Israel).  But guiding principles are present throughout both the
Old and New Testament.

Some argue that the New Testament has precedence over the Old
on some issues.  I prefer to view it as the principles never
changing but the responses changing in different situations
when applying the principles.

Collis

� The person who wrote "Who Moved the Stone?" (if that was indeed the title :-)
� became a believer in his attempt to disprove Christianity as a reasonable
� religion.

I recently re-read "Who Moved the Stone?" by Frank Morison, and was most 
impressed by its thoroughness.  Not only in examining the superficially 
evident material, but in applying an awareness of what personalities, 
expectations and responses were involved in the events of the time.

Frank Morison did, indeed, start writing the book with the definite feeling
that the life of Christ rested on very insecure foundations, as he
expresses it in the first chapter (the book is in my hand just now - I'm
typing single-handed). 

The penultimate paragraph of that chapter reads 
 "...I will only say that it effected a revolution in my thought.  Things
  emerged from that old-world story which previously I should have thought
  impossible.  Slowly but very definitely the conviction grew that the drama
  of those unforgettable weeks of human history was stranger asnd deeper than
  it seemed.  It was the *strangeness* of many notable things in the story
  which first arrested and held my interest.  It was only later that their
  resistible logic of their meaning came into view."

A book well worth reading.  He focussed on the crucifixion week, because 
 1. It did not hold miracles, which he suspected scientifically, initially.
 2. All the gospels contributed information to this time which was 
    generally in agreement
 3. The trial and execution of Jesus was a reverberating historical event, 
    attested indirectly by a thousand political consequenses and by a vast 
    literature which grew out ofthem.

This, he felt, would lead to the truth of the matter.  Which he found as 
recorded in the Bible.

							Andrew

 Josh McDowell became a Christian after hanging around a bunch of college 
 students who were Christians and he couldn't figure out why they were happy
 and peaceful..they talked to him about the Bible but he didn't believe it, and
 set off to prove the Bible was wrong..the results are the 2 (?) editions of
 Evidence that demands a verdict.





 Jim

    I too read "Who Moved the Stone". I found it difficult to follow (I
    believe Frank Morison is/was a lawyer - not that that has anything to
    do with my being unable to follow the book). I believe I will make
    another attempt at reading it - hopefully I'm a bit smarter than I was
    several years ago :-).
    
    Mark, thanks for mentioning 71 (Bible Difficulties). I am just putting
    the finishing touches on a class I'm teaching on Bible Difficulties. It
    starts this Sunday! We'll be discussing all that have been mentioned in
    71.* as well as many others than have bothered myself or others over
    the years. If anyone has any more to contribute I'll be glad to add
    them to my class to be discussed in V2.
    
    	BD�

Re .0 (Jim)...

>    Who wrote the bible?

    God is the ultimate Author:

         2 Tim. 3:16 -> All Scripture is inspired by God and
         profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for
         training in righteousness.

         2 Pet. 1:19-21 -> And so we have the prophetic word made more
         sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp
         shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning
         star arises in your hearts. But know this first of all, that
         no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own
         interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of
         human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

    God revealed His message to the human writers, who form a select group
    of about 40 men & women (Esther and Ruth were written by women) over a
    period of about 1500 years.
    
>    Was it divinely inspired or the work of men trying to
>    understand their world?

    It is divinely inspired (see first answer).

>    WHo today has the right to edit it? Is there a bible that
>    has not changed since it was written?

    Since it is God's message, man does not have the right to edit the
    Bible. However, the science of textual criticism combined with the
    discovery of more ancient documents have worked together such that
    scholars can suggest (minor) changes to correct the documents we
    have today in order to bring them more in line with what is theorized
    to be the original text. Additionally, I believe man has a
    responsibility to maintain the Bible in the common languages so that
    everyone can understand it.

>    I understand the bible was written over many hundreds of years,
>    is that true?

    Yes. The first books were probably written around 1400 BC, and the last
    book was written shortly before AD 100.

>    Finally, does the old testament have precedence over the
>    new when it comes to religous questions?

    If anything, the New Testament has precedence over the Old. This is
    because (1) God reveals Himself more fully throughout the Scriptures,
    as His people are taught, as it were, to crawl, walk, then run, and (2)
    Jesus is the complete fulfillment of the Old Testament. Of course, in
    areas related to God's immutable nature, e.g. the moral code of the
    Old Testament, this hasn't changed anyway. The things that have changed
    are usually related to the old sacrificial system, which was a shadow
    of the ultimate Sacrifice.

	BD�

| <<< Note 257.8 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>





| they talked to him about the Bible but he didn't believe it, and set off to 
| prove the Bible was wrong..the results are the 2 (?) editions of Evidence 
| that demands a verdict.


	Hey Jim, I guess he didn't talk to me.... :-)



Glen

>	Hey Jim, I guess he didn't talk to me.... :-)

    Perhaps you should consider talking to him. :-|
    
    Mark L.

RE:               <<< Note 257.11 by JURAN::SILVA "Memories....." >>>




.	Hey Jim, I guess he didn't talk to me.... :-)



        No, but you have no evidence to support what you believe, just
        like he had none to support what he believed (which was quite similar
        to what you believe, btw).  He set out to prove what we as Christians
        believe is non supportable by evidence..and has spent much of his life
        publishing his findings..




       I highly recommend his books.




 Jim