Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Just one quicky to throw in here -- there is resurrection, and there is
    rapture.  The two don't necessarily coincide.
    
    For an interesting reading of a former pre-trib now post-mid-trib
    rapture view, you might look at Marvin Rosenthal's "The Pre-Wrath
    Rapture of the Church" (I think that's the name of the book).
    
    Mark L.

>    Just one quicky to throw in here -- there is resurrection, and there is
>    rapture.  The two don't necessarily coincide.

Doesn't 1 Thess 4 say that the dead in Christ will rise along with those
Christians who are living?  That's where the confusion starts:

v.15: "According ot the Lord's own word, we tellyou that we who are still
alive, who are left til the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede
those who have fallen asleep.  For the Lord himself will come down from heaven,
with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call
of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still
alive and are left will be caught up [=rapturus] together with them [i.e. the
dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

So it appears that the rapture (at least the one spoken of in this verse)
coincides with (actually it immediate succeeds) the first resurrection.

Eric

>Naturally different people have different opinions of the details, but there
>does seem to be a strange agreement among evangelicals that the Rapture will
>occur sometime before the Second Coming, and I'm curious as to how this under-
>standing has come about.

Nit:  evangelicals that I know are rather well divided on the pre-trib,
mid-trib, and post-trib ideas about the rapture.  I think mid-trib has
gotten the least press.

I used to know the reasons people gave for this interesting study into the 
future, but something was said that fast became clich� that I've agreed with
and haven't given eschatology much study:  "Be ready for a pre-trib
rapture, but live as though the rapture won't occur until after the 
tribulation."  And what do you know, it is the same thought as going 
about your business not knowing when the Lord will return.

Yes, sometimes the world events cause a bit of anxiety.  I want to enjoy
as much of this earth as God will allow.  But God is God and I am not,
and His plans are inexorable.  And whatever plans He has are fine with 
me.  We should pray that the days [of tribulation] are cut short for the sake
of the elect.

    Personally, I hold to the "Pan-Trib" postion: It's all going to pan
    out in the end!
    
    I think there is ample evidence scripturally for nearly any position
    one chooses.  The clearest scriptural position is the one where we
    are told to be READY at any time, eh?
    
    Don/

    -1
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    I like that. :-) pan-trip.. hee hee hee , ho, ho, ho!
    
    Nancy
    

Wow, you guys are so irenic :-) Either everyone's been laid off, is working too
hard, or is weary of noting ... maybe I've been on Usenet too long!

Well I'm going to try to spark some more conversation, someone rebuke me if
this is a worn-out discussion, but I can't see any notes on it that have been
posted recently.  Related stuff in March, but that's it.

So anywhere, here goes.  Let's just call this a "Beta-Test" of "The End Times
Topic."  Maybe if there's enough interest we can move it to its own note :-)

Cf. Daniel 9.

Article 2348 of clari.news.bulletin:
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Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!crl.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: [email protected] (JONATHAN FERZIGER)
Newsgroups: clari.news.gov.international,clari.news.issues.conflict,clari.news.group,clari.news.features,clari.news.bulletin
Subject: Israel recognizes PLO, prepares to sign treaty
Keywords: international, non-usa government, government, war & peace,
	social issues, general ethnic, special interest
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
References: <[email protected]>
X-Supersedes: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 9 Sep 93 11:28:53 PDT
Location: mideast, israel
ACategory: international
Slugword: mideast-israel
Priority: urgent
Format: breaking, feature
ANPA: Wc: 794/808; Id: z3775; Sel: xpigf; Adate: 9-9-N/A; Ver: 9/2; V: 3rdld-writethru
Approved: [email protected]
Codes: yigfbxp., yixwbis., yijefxx.
Note: urgent
 (details, formal signing about 6 p.m. EDT)
Lines: 74

	JERUSALEM (UPI) -- Israel agreed Thursday to give formal recognition
to the Palestine Liberation Organization and prepared to sign a historic
agreement granting self-rule in stages to the 1.8 million Arab residents
of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
	Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's inner Cabinet voted to approve a
treaty worked out in secret negotiations that would end decades of
hostilities and provide for mutual recognition between the Jewish state
and the PLO. In Tunis, the PLO's executive committee was expected to
give its own approval.
	Rabin initialed the agreement in advance of a formal signing ceremony
later in the evening. Norwegian Foreign Minister Johan Jorgen Holst was
to arrive from Tunis with the documents signed by PLO Chairman Yasser
Arafat, which were then to be signed by Rabin.
	``The chairman of the PLO will come out publicly and will ask the
Palestinian people in the territories to cease any use of violence and
terrorism,'' Rabin spokesman Oded Ben-Ami said.
	``The PLO will declare that all the articles of the Palestinian
covenant that are contradictory to the existence of Israel will be
invalid and the PLO is to recognize the right of Israel to live and to
exist,'' he said.
	Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and his PLO counterpart, Farouk
Kadoumi, were expected to travel to Washington Monday to sign a formal
declaration of principles granting limited autonomy to residents of the
occupied territories, starting with the Gaza Strip, on the
Mediterranean, and the West Bank town of Jericho.
	``I think it's the opening of a new era,'' said Shulamit Aloni,
communications minister and leader of the left-wing Meretz Party.
	The approval of the treaty came from Rabin's inner Cabinet, a pared-
down version of the full Cabinet. The reason that the full body was not
summoned was to avoid a legal tangle that would have been created by the
presence of Interior Minister Aryeh Deri, who is resigning over
corruption charges.
	Earlier in the day, Rabin sought to explain to members of his own
Labor Party why he was reversing Israel's decades-old policy and talking
directly with the PLO.
	``You don't negotiate peace with friends. You make it with very
unsympathetic enemies. I will not try to make the PLO look nicer than it
is. It was an enemy. It is still an enemy,'' Rabin said.
	``But it is with enemies that one undertakes negotiations, and we
came to the conclusion that among the Palestinians we can either talk to
the PLO and its supporters who favor an agreement, or the Hamas, which
opposes one, or to remain in the current situation, because there is no
other partner.''
	Hamas, a radical Muslim movement centered in the Gaza Strip, has
vowed to undermine the pact with the PLO and wants to replace all of
Israel and the occupied territories with an Islamic state.
	Rabin needs to hold together his wafer-thin majority in the Knesset,
Israel's parliament, to see through the peace agreement negotiated
secretly with the PLO in Oslo. While he has the numerical strength for a
slim approval, the prime minister is trying to recruit members of the
opposition to vote for the pact in order to prove it has wide support.
	The right-wing has maintained that Rabin does not have popular
support to talk with the PLO and has called for a national referendum on
the matter before any agreement is approved.
	Until now, Israel has refused to talk directly to the PLO, which it
regarded as a terrorist organization, responsible for the killing of
hundreds of its citizens. During two years of Middle East peace talks,
Israel has insisted that the Palestinians be represented by a team of
delegates who live inside the occupied territories but are not members
of the PLO.
	Rabin said it was a charade that had not worked. ``From the beginning
it was clear that without approval from (PLO headquarters in) Tunis, the
Palestinian delegation would not budge a millimeter,'' Rabin said.
	Rabin said at least three agreements would be signed with the PLO
once it renounces the sections of its charter that call for the
destruction of the Jewish state.
	Among the agreements, he said, will be a declaration that the PLO
will continue to negotiate the future status of the occupied West Bank
and Gaza Strip and no longer engage in violence against Israel.
	Such a promise would put an end to the nearly 6-year-old uprising
against Israel, known as the intifada, which has claimed the lives of
more than 1,000 Palestinians and 100 Israelis.
	``We came to the conclusion that there was no partner but the PLO,
but only under certain conditions,'' Rabin said.

Ah, found it.

I'm going to break open note 58, Signs of the Times, again ... put in there
some of the stuff I'd like to talk about.

Eric

Re: .6  (Eric)

>Cf. Daniel 9.

Bzzzt.  No temple.  Also see Dan 11:31.

    I heard news reports that Israel now has everything they need to build
    the temple.  Even the golden (expensive) candlestick holders (name
    escapes me but I know it starts with M ;-)).

No temple yet, what's more crucial than the temple is the thorny issue of the
Dome of Rock where it would go, which is jealously possessed by the Muslims.
If they give THAT up, THAT would be a miracle.

Although I _did_ hear a rumor that some archaeologists have changed their mind
and decided that the location of the Temple was _really_ a couple of hundred
yards away from the Dome of Rock.

I'm taking a wait and see attitude.  We still have a month to go.�

Eric

�Cf. 58.35.

Hi Eric,  

I think most of us who've been involved in eschatology discussions from the 
pre-trib perspective are watching and waiting.  The basic expectations are 
pretty clearly understood, and although we see political manouvering 
moving into place towards what we anticipate, there has yet to be any 
definitive flag event to mark our place on the timescale.

Re 256.9
'Mike' begins with 'M', as well as Menorah ... ;-)

I've heard about the preparation for rebuilding the temple too, Eric, and
the idea that possibly the Dome of the Rock doesn't quite hit the spot. 
I'll wait and see; it's out of my hands, but it's the result that'll be
interesting, rather than speculation. 

Re the possible treaty; 

Note that the significant treaty of prophecy is ratified by the Anti-Christ
(Daniel 9:27).  His achievements on a world peace front, with false
miracles, a resurrection event, etc are so significant that the whole
(fallen) world acclaims him (Revelation 13:3-4,7-8).

The anti-Christ will certainly be recognisable before any rapture, from
Paul's instruction in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, which warns the Thessalonians
not to be deluded into thinking that the LORD has returned before the man
of lawlessness is revealed, recognised by his opposition to God, to the
extent of setting himself up to be worshipped in the temple (as also
referred to in Rev. 13:6-7 Daniel 7:25, 9:27, 11:36-37, Matthew 24:15,
etc.). 

My personal perspective on the current peace negotiations is that there are
such underlying conflicting agendas and difficulties, that nothing of
significance is likely to hold.  I believe that the very failure of such
initial attempts (even convincing ones, as we see now) is one factor which
impresses the world about the anti-Christ's competence.  He *is*
demonically possessed and inspired.

Meanwhile, we are exhorted to watch and be prepared.  And to be encouraged, 
as we recognise what our LoRD has foretold coming to pass.

� Well I'm going to try to spark some more conversation, someone rebuke me if
� this is a worn-out discussion...

I believe this is stuff we should be familiar with; especially now, when
there are significant indications that we are in the generation which shall
see the fulfillment.  Not to get obsessed by it, but looking for the LORD. 

You know, we can get pretty excited about potential fulfillment events, as 
if they themselves were what we were looking for [ people were actually 
asking if the Iran war was likely to become Armaggedon...! ] But what we 
mustn't lose focus on is *why* these things are exciting :
    � The fact that they are falling into a foretold, recognisable plan - ok
     � The fact that they are a witness to the veracity of God's Word - ok
	
But these aren't the main point.  The main point is that we are going to 
see Him and be with Him.  "When these things begin to take place, stand up 
and lift up your heads, for your redemption is drawing near." Luke 21:28.

You realise that, people, 

	JESUS IS COMING BACK TO THIS EARTH IN PERSON.

		PROBABLY WITHIN OUR LIFETIME.

THAT IS THE IMPORTANT THING WE'RE WATCHING FOR, THAT THESE SIGNS FLAG...

I might die this afternoon, and see Him quicker, but given a 'normal'
lifespan, I would anticipate meeting Him in the clouds, rather than going
through the death experience.  That's exciting.  It's the fulfillment of
all we're created for!  The ultimate experience.  And it's not just a
one-off; it continues for eternity; no separation from Him, a total absence
of sin, misery, pain, tears, etc - those are things of 'this life',
associated with the fall... (yes James, the one that started with Adam and
Eve). 

THAT's what makes the fulfillment of prophecy exciting.  Even though it 
portends big trouble, humanly speaking, the greater - greatest of all - 
significance - is that we are going to see the LORD Jesus, and be with 
Him....  How ever often I say *that*'s the real, living, eternal, truth, I 
still can't grasp the enormity of it, though it is more exciting every time 
I think of it....

							Andrew
		getting carried away there.... but not on the clouds yet ;-)

Amen Andrew,

Excellent note, I got really excited reading it.  

>I've heard about the preparation for rebuilding the temple too, Eric, and
>the idea that possibly the Dome of the Rock doesn't quite hit the spot. 
>I'll wait and see; it's out of my hands, but it's the result that'll be
>interesting, rather than speculation. 

There's a scripture that talks about the temple being built on a threshing
floor (i.e. flat rock) I wish I could remember the reference.  The Dome of
the Rock is just that it is on the pinnacle of the rock.  Apparently (this
information is from a friend of mine) there is a flat piece of rock about
100 yards from the Dome of the Rock, that could permit the temple to be
re-built and co-exist with the Dome of the Rock.
  
>	JESUS IS COMING BACK TO THIS EARTH IN PERSON.

>		PROBABLY WITHIN OUR LIFETIME.

>THAT IS THE IMPORTANT THING WE'RE WATCHING FOR, THAT THESE SIGNS FLAG...

Hallelujah! Maranatha!

Graham

 Great note Andrew...gives me goosebumps!  I'm taking a class on 
 Revelation in church and it is quite exciting too...



 One thing folks, something of which I  was reminded yesterday, lets 
 not forget that while the Lord is coming for us one day, there are people
 all around us who, were He to come today, would NOT be going with us because
 they do not know Him..





Jim

Hmmm.  I re-read Dn 9 and now i'm more confused.  This is the section:

"After the sixty-two 'sevens', the Anointed One will be cut off and will have
nothing.  The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the
sanctuary.  The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end,
and desolations have been decreed.  He will confirm a covenant with many for
one 'seven'.  In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and
offering.  And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that
causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
(vv 26-27)

"He" would seem to indicate "the ruler who will come".  This is ostensibly the
anti-Christ or the Beast. But the covenant -- whether it is a peace treaty or
no, it doesn't say here -- is with "many" and not with Israel alone. Or maybe
this refers to the anti-Christ making a covenant with Israel and the other
Arab nations, like is being talked about.

So far the peace treaty seems pretty boring, although I still think it has
_something_ to do with the end times, even if it isn't the "covenant with many."

Eric

    Re: .12
    
>There's a scripture that talks about the temple being built on a threshing
>floor (i.e. flat rock) I wish I could remember the reference.
    
    2 Samuel 24:16-25 (and 1 Chr. 21) is the account of the judgement as a
    result of David's sin in numbering the people of Israel.  In response
    to David's cry for mercy, the LORD tell's David to build an altar on
    the threshingfloor of Araunah (Ornan).  It was in this time of great
    trouble that David realized: "Then David said, This is the house of the
    Lord God, and this is the altar of the burnt offering for Israel." 
    (1 Chr. 22:1)  To me, this shows how *great* a desire David had for the
    house of God. (Ps. 27:4 -- One thing have I desired of the LORD, that
    will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the
    days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in
    his temple.)  2 Chronicles 3:1 "Then Solomon began to build the house
    of the Lord at Jerusalem in mount Moriah, where the Lord appeared unto
    David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the
    threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite."
     
    I know it is pure speculation, but I would not be surprised if the
    rebuilding of the temple on the site of the Dome of the Rock (one of
    the Muslim's most holy places) will be a major catalyst in bringing
    about the final wars against Jerusalem.
    
    Mark L.

re .14, Eric,

I think that the covenant of Daniel 9 is referring to a treaty. 
'Convenant' is just a will, or binding agreement, and between nations,
that's a treaty.  Usually for peaceful purposes...

� is with "many" and not with Israel alone. 

I understand the 'many' to indicate that it's with a majority of Israel's
leadership, rather than being unanimous.  Maybe there will be those who will 
point to Daniel 9, and say "No!", but be overruled.

� So far the peace treaty seems pretty boring, although I still think it has
� _something_ to do with the end times, even if it isn't the "covenant with 
� many."
A pointer of the way 'the world' is thinking, which is moving towards the 
end time world treaty.  Not there yet, though ... quite.

The twigs are getting tender on the fig tree, even if there's not many 
leaves yet...

							Andrew

I'll just but in here with this....

I've heard enough arguments about the rapture (is it pre-tribulation, 
mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation?) to make me come to this point of view:

I'll just keep serving God till he comes back.. I'm not going to waste what time
I have counting the toes and the horns of the beast.. 

Stevo...

Fed up with Christian Escapism...

re .17

Good idea.

Hi Stevo, 

Don't worry about labels.  His Word is given us for a purpose.  He doesn't
waste His inspiration.  Just study the Word, always getting to know Him
better.   You'll recognise what He wants you to recognise when it happens,
but listen to Him rather than people. 

He wants us to know Him; not just know 'about' Him (the devils believe and
tremble).  But knowing someone tends to imply knowing about them too... 

Ducking the issue (or listening to what 'people' say, rather than studying 
the Word) is what I would call escapism...  The fact that people come to 
different conclusions matters less than the fact that they make a fuss 
about it...  

							Andrew

re -.1
>Ducking the issue (or listening to what 'people' say, rather than studying 
>the Word) is what I would call escapism...  The fact that people come to 
>different conclusions matters less than the fact that they make a fuss 
>about it...  

I DEFINITELY agree with the last sentence!

Perhaps I need to clarify myself.. 

I was referring to the way some Christians behave. We'll just get into this holy
air-raid shelter, and have some warm fellowship and wait until Jesus comes
through the clouds. I just get so fed up with people who are `just holding on
till our sweet Saviour comes back'.. We have been told to `Go into all the 
world.. This was Jesus' last command to us, and as the army of God, we must 
fulfill the last command that we were given..

Christ will return when HE wills.. The timing is not important.. That He is 
returning IS important..

Stevo.

    While at Kroger today, before nabbing my lunch in the deli, I came
    across a new book, entitled 'Celestine Prophesy' (or prophesies). 
    
    Curious, I picked it up and paged throught it.  Though my opinions
    cannot be complete since I obviously didn't read the entire book, I
    couldn't help but get the feeling that this book was yet another sign
    that the rapture is near.
    
    Why, you ask?  I will try to explain.
    
    The first thing that caught my attention (I did page through it for
    about 15-20 minutes, so I got a general idea about it) in it was the
    obvious New Age connection.  Not only that, but New Age philosophy
    mixed with Biblical truths.  A frightening combination for confustion,
    with enough truth mixed in to be very convincing (at least in the parts
    I read).
    
    Basically, it is about a newly found set of ancient Perusian prophesies
    regarding the spirituality of man.  They compse of nine truths (at
    least what seemed to be covered in this book) that mankind has to find
    in order to achieve true spirituality.
    
    (note that in my quick perusal, I could not find the copies of the
    manuscript that I would expect to find in the book...all I could locate
    are references to it)
    
    The thing that stuck with me more than the philosophy combining the
    Bible with the New Age, was that, in effect, it gave an explanation to
    what will undoubtedly occur in this generation (IMHO), the rapture.  
    
    According to this book, when people make that final spiritual evolution
    to a higher vibration rate (those familiar with New Age philosophy will
    understand this terminology) and will in effect become invisible to
    those who have not achieved this final step of evolution.  It also
    states that those who are "raptured" will still think they are here,
    but will feel lighter (loose paraphrase from memory...may not be
    accurate).
    
    When I, as a Christian, came to understand the rapture, I wondered how
    the world would explain the disappearance of so many people.  I still
    wonder about it.  I always thought that it would be a time in which
    those who are left on the earth would re-evaluate their spiritual
    condition...after all, most everyone has heard about the rapture of the
    Bible.  I think now I see Satan's plan to lessen this great spiritual
    event for those who are left, by explaining it away with New Age
    spiritualism.
    
    I recently finished Hal Lindsey's latest book on prophesy- a new
    release in the local Christian bookstore.  He mentions an increase in
    books by New Age "gurus" that mention an event where many people will
    disappear from the earth (for various explained reasons).  I believe
    this book is another such subtle attempt to lessen the impact of the
    rapture on those who will be left behind, and actually turn them
    towards the New Age philosophies that will become dominant in the last
    days.
    
    It is my feeling that the increase in such books and explanations
    point towards the immenant return of our Lord, Jesus Christ.  These
    books are preparing the psyche of the world to accept such an
    incredible event, and take away the glory of God in the process. 
    Though no one knows the day or the hour, we do know the season...we
    know what to look for.  I think we are experiencing more and more such
    signs every day, in increasing frequency.
    
    All in my opinion, of course.  
    
    As far as the book in question is concerned, in all honesty I could be
    wrong on certain parts of it since I did not read the entire work.  I
    may have to see if the local library has it, and if so, read it to
    confirm my views.
    
    
    -steve

    Is the Rapture concept taught outside of the U.S. or is it mainly an
    American belief?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

 Re Rapture Theory :

 supposedly it (rapture theory) started in Scotland circa 1830 by a woman 
 named Margaret McDonald (I think), she claims it was given to her "by 
 utterance" it very quickly spread to the Plymouth Brethren (Darby) in Great 
 Britain who concatenated it with dispensationalism, later CI Schofield became
 the chief promulgator of the theory. It is world-wide but most popular in the
 states. Generally covenant and reformed theology systems to not accept it as
 scriptural.

 Hank

    Hank:
    
    is .23 referring to the pre-trib rapture theory as opposed to rapture
    in general?
    
    I read a book that sounds awfully familiar to what you wrote in .23.
    
    While "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible, the idea of being "caught
    up together with Him" is, as is the idea that "we'll not all sleep, but
    some will be changed in the twinkling of an eye...".
    
    Just trying to clarify your entry there.
    
    Thanks :-)
    
    Steve

    Re: Note 256.23 by 18024::DALELIO_HENR
    
� supposedly it (rapture theory) started in Scotland circa 1830 by a woman 
    
    I have neither the time nor the desire to get into another rapture
    debate, but those of us who subscribe to this belief would claim that
    the "rapture theory" started in the first century, seeing as how it was
    taught by the New Testament writers. :-)
    
    	BD�

    Rapture is in the Bible - the Latin Vulgate.

   Re .24 Steve

   Hi Steve, the book is called the Incredible Coverup. I forget the author's
   name. I can get it for you if you want. Mary McDonald promulgated the 
   pre-trib rapture and started (according to the book) the modern charismatic
   movement.

   The so-called "rapture" as it is currently defined by CI Scofield and
   Dwight Pentecost is not accepted by many christians.

   Re .25 Barry

   Hi Barry, I'm not trying to be divisive, this is just another place 
   where christians disagree. I don't know of any early church writings
   which teach a secret per-trib rapture. The I and II Thess passages
   have various modern interpretations. Personally, I believe the "gathering"
   (a more biblical word) theory as opposed to the "rapture" theory.
   Basically the Lord will come at the last trump (the seventh trump of Rev)
   we will gather to him in the air (aer-lower atmosphere) with the OT
   saints and christians who have gone on before us, proceed to the Mt of
   Olives with Him to witness the destruction of the unregenerate and the
   establishment of the millenium or chiliad (reformed theology word).

   Re .26  Rapture - in the Latin Vulgate

   Thats interesting, what is the word? rapturo? where is it used?

  Hank D

>   Re .26  Rapture - in the Latin Vulgate
>
>   Thats interesting, what is the word? rapturo? where is it used?
    
    I Thessalonians 4:16-17 says we will "be caught up."  Rapture is taken 
    from the Latin word for this Greek translated phrase which is "raper�."  
    It is from the Vulgate Latin translation of the New Testament.  "Vulgar" 
    meaning common, which was the common Latin of the time.  
    
    Mike

    re: .27
    
    Hank - I remember now.... the Incredible Coverup - I believe the author
    may have been Ian MacPherson (does that ring a bell?) - this is
    definitely the book I read that sounded like your earlier note.   
    
    .27 clarifies that you're speaking about one view of "the rapture", 
    i.e., the pre-trib rapture (which was, I believe, the point of that
    book).
    
    As I said earlier (and I believe Barry echoed), the Bible *does* speak
    about being gathered & changed.  These concepts are "neatly" (?)
    covered by the word "rapture" as we understand its use today.  I'm
    fairly sure the word "rapture" as applied to being with Him forever was
    used well before the Plymouth Brethren came on the scene.   Whether the
    believers' being gathered to Him would happen pre-, mid-, or post-
    tribulation is, as they say, "a whole 'nother kettle of fish".
    
    Steve
    
    

  Re .29 Ian MacPherson - yes thats him, do you watch The Shepards Chapel?
  Arnold Murray? He's on G4-6 satellite. He is VERY anti-rapture, hardly
  a broadcast goes by, that he's not running down the "rapture".

  You can watch him turn progressive shades of red. One of these days
  he's going tom have a stroke (the Lord forbid) he gets so bent out of shape
  about it.

  Hank

    There are pictures of the rapture in Enoch and Elijah as well.  I don't
    understand why it's so hard to grasp.  As Steve said before, even the
    New Agers are writing about it and already have the excuses made up.

    .31
    
    I'm interested like what are the NAers saying?

re 'secret, pre-trib rapture'
256.31 � I don't understand why it's so hard to grasp.  

Mike,
Not hard to grasp; hard to justify Biblically.  Most representations
superimpose a wedding scenario which presumes a particular format not
explicitly identified in the Bible, and conflicting with the plain
interpretation of most passages where either the rapture or the LROD's
return (usually both) are referred to.  Barry & I have started discussion
on aspects of this, offline a few times, but I guess other commitments
haven't let him respond ....

It's not a big deal, but it concerns me that the 'pre-trib' principle has
people putting an awful lot of importance on escaping worldly discomfort /
persecution / tribulation.  This is directly against Biblical teaching, and
undermines in the same sort way as the health & wealth emphasis. 

								Andrew

    Andrew,
    
    "Spot on" as they say in your neck of the woods :-)
    
    I believe we'll be "raptured" (i.e., caught up to be with Him), but I
    am not convinced that this will happen such that we'll "escape" any
    tribulation (though we will most certainly not experience G-d's
    *wrath*).
    
    
    L-rd is my Shepherd, I want for nothing.  You make me to lie down in
    green pastures.  You restore my soul!  You lead me in paths of
    righteousness for Your great Name's sake.
    
    Even though *I walk through* the valley of the shadow of death, I fear
    no evil!  For You are *with* me (Immanuel)!  Your rod and Your staff; 
    they comfort me!   You prepare a table for me *in the presence of my 
    enemies*.  You annoint my head with oil - my cup runs over!!  Surely 
    goodness and mercy will pursue me all the days of my life; and I will 
    dwell in the Your house forever and ever!
    
    Steve

  The following is a small addition to Steve's observation. Hopefully, and
  if anyone wants to discuss this (work and time permitting) we can share our 
  views in the spirit of learning our differences.


  For there shall be *Great Tribulation*, such as has not been since the
  beginning of the world until this time, no , nor even shall be.
  And unless those days be shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the
  elect's sake those days will be shortened.  

  Matthew 24:21-22 NKJV

  To the Thyratiran church :

  Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman
  Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce my servants to
  commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
  And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality and she did not repent
  Indeed, I will cast her into a sickbed and those who commit adultery with her
  into *Great Tribulation* unless they repent of their deeds.

  Revelation 2:20-22 NKJV.

  A comparison of these two scriptures show the possibility that at least 
  certain unsanctified Thyratiran type saints are going into the Great 
  Tribulation. ???

  Sometimes a case is attempted to be made by the absence of the definite
  article (the) in the Revelation citation, however you will see that the 
  definite article is missing in the "Great Tribulation" proof text in 
  Matthew 24.

  Hank D

    Re: Note 256.33 by ICTHUS::YUILLE
    
�Barry & I have started discussion
�on aspects of this, offline a few times, but I guess other commitments
�haven't let him respond ....
    
    I'm sorry, Andrew; I didn't realize that I was supposed to respond to
    something. (It's quite possible that I was, but I don't recall.) If we
    were talking about something to which I was supposed to respond, please
    send me mail. Thanks!

    
    	BD�

Hi Barry, 

I sent you a summary approach towards the end of discussions last year some
time.  I thought you intended to make reply, but I guess other things took
priority.  I'm not sure of I can find that original mail now, as I've have
problems with my node here....  I'll see if I can find it, and revert to mail. 

							God bless
								Andrew 

    God's Tribulation <> World's Tribulation
    
    We as Christians experience the World's tribulations and persecutions,
    but we will not experience God's wrath.  There are many other things to
    think about too:
    
    - The antichrist won't be revealed until He who hinders is taken out of
      the way.  God's Holy Spirit is omnipresent and must remain during the
      tribulation for the possibility of tribulation saints being saved. 
      So who is He that hinders?  It has to be the Church.  What else could
      it be?  In each believer's heart the Holy Spirit resides, but He must 
      remain to save souls that will be martyred.
    
    - Jesus is accompanied by *all* the saints in the 2nd Coming to wage
      war against the antichrist.  There must first be time for the rapture of
      the church, revelation of the antichrist, Bema Seat of Christ,
      presentation of the Bride to the Father, and the Wedding Supper of the 
      Lamb for *all* saints to be with Christ at the 2nd Coming.  If the
      rapture is post-trib, there won't be time for Daniel's 70th week,
      Bema Seat, Wedding, and Wedding Supper before the 2nd Coming.
    
    - Jesus will not present a battered, abused, and wounded Bride to His
      Father.  His Bride will be perfect, without spot or wrinkle.
    
    - The Antichrist can't reveal himself with the Church still here.  We
      know the signs to look for and will hinder his plans to lead all to
      destruction.  The Church will set off all the alarms and people won't
      be fooled.  Of course this is generally speaking, some will be fooled
      no matter what.
    
    more as they come to mind...
    
    Mike

    Usually, when the Bible speaks of Christians, it calls them saints.
    
    When, in Revelation, it says that the days of the Great Tribulation
    will be shortened for the sake of the "elect", I believe it refers to
    those of the 12 tribes that will share the gospel with the world. 
    
    I could be wrong, but why else would He choose to use "elect" rather
    than "saints" in the verbage?  Saints are a much more common reference
    to members of God's Church.
    
    -steve

    Yabbut :-)
    
    The saints are also referred to as the elect in some epistles (i.e.,
    the words appear interchangeable to me...).
    
    Not "fighting" here - just pointing out anudder perspective.
    
    Let's face it, our Heavenly Father is the *only* one (One!) who knows
    the exact time.  That there are still multiple views on the matter is
    evidence that He was right! :-)
    
    Best advice I've heard:
    
    	Prepare for post- and if it's pre-, no harm/no foul.
    
    Steve

 Ultimately, all that matters to me is one o' these days, I'm going to
 be with Him, and I have plenty of friends/loved ones/strangers I'd love
 to see there as well..




 Jim

    Look for other references to the "elect" in the Bible for context. 
    There are quite a few in the NT.
    
1_PETER 1:2  Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through
 sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of
 Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

COLOSSIANS 3:12  Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, 
    bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

MATTHEW 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, 
    and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end 
    of heaven to the other.

    More clues can be found in Romans to find out who exactly is elected to
    be the elect ;-)
    
    8:33  Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God
    that justifieth.
    
    9:11  (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or
     evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not 
     of works, but of him that calleth;)
    
    11:5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant
    according to the election of grace.
    
    11:7  What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
    but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
    
    Interesting how the above distinguishes Israel from the elect so it
    can't be the 12 tribes.
    
    11:28  As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but
    as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    
    Mike

    Okay, okay...I forgot those passages.  Elect/saint does seem to be
    interchangable.
    
    Ignore my mail, Steve...my memory has been jolted into reality.  8^)
    
    Doesn't prove I'm wrong, either.  8^)
    
    -steve

    - The Imminent return of Christ caters to a pre-trib rapture.  With a
      mid-trib or post-trib rapture, there is much less uncertainity in
      pinpointing the timeframe due to the all the known events that will
      occur.  Christ said that no man knows the hour.  Paul said it would
      happen as a thief comes in the night.  This imminency could only
      happen in a pre-trib rapture.
    
    - The Thessalonians' reactions that necessitated Pauls letters to them
      show that they were taught pre-trib, not post-trib.  Their
      persecution led them to believe that they had missed the rapture and
      were experiencing the day of the Lord.  If the rapture was post-trib,
      they wouldn't have reacted this way.  This is also more proof that
      the rapture doctrine originated with the early church, for this is
      how they were taught.
    
    Mike

Hi Mike,

Do you really want to re-raise all the old discussions on pre/post trib 
rapture?  If you like, I can clarify these points for you  ;-), but not 
until September at the earliest, as I'm on vacation 8th-12th August and 
22nd-26th August, and don't anticipate having time to get deeply into 
anything in the intervening week.  Though, of course, there's others who 
can defend the truth ( ';-)', of course ...) equally well, I'd hate to miss 
the party....  Or the rapture, but I have more confidence in being included 
in *that* one! ... ;-)

						Andrew

    Andrew, I'm just tossing out thoughts.  I didn't realize they were
    already hashed out.  If you want to respond, that would be great. 
    Maybe I can bring a different perspective to this old debate.
    
    Mike