Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Try this on for size: EVENTS are fated, but PEOPLE aren't
    
    Jesus said "It must be that the Son of Man be betrayed, but woe
    unto the one who betrays Him." (Not an exact quote, of course)
    
    Seems that Jesus said that the event of betrayal was fate, but
    that the position of betrayer was up for grabs.
    
    Man has a free will.  It's basic to our relationship with God.
    Blaming choices on fate doesn't fly.
    
    Don/

Hi Jim,

God has chosen His children from before the creation of the world, but He 
still woos them into accepting salvation in 'their' time, which is also His 
time, known from before time....  He doesn't violate our free will in this.

Our free will, chosen to be given to Him is the expression of love He 
desires from us.  Can you imagine the guy who grumpily says he "Has to be 
saved 'cause it's fated...:-[".  No - he yields up his life to the LORD 
with a thrill of gratitude and excitement because he has realised Who the 
LORD is, and what He has done for him.

� Did Judas have no choice to do what he did? 
Judas walked with Jesus for 3 years, just as the other apostles did.
Jesus didn't slam the door on him - even let him be the group treasurer, a 
job after his own heart.  That was Judas' type of choice.  [ To overlap 
another topic - do you think Judas tithed, like the priests did? ]

At the end of the time, Judas had clung to his own heart attitude instead 
of letting what Jesus had been witnessing to him all that time affect his 
own personality.  Judas opted to entertain satan instead of Jesus (Luke 
22:3-6), go to the chief priests etc, and negotiate betrayal.

Jesus knew people's characters.  And knew what Judas would do.  In John
13:27,  Jesus sees the change, knows the time has come, and says to Judas,
effectively "It's time NOW"....  Not Judas' time specially; certainly not
the chief priests time, but God's time. 

I know that's not directly relevant to the question, but it's exciting.  
Just how God brings Romans 8:28 into effect even when it looks as though 
the enemy is having a field day.  I rather suspect  that the devil thought 
he'd won game set and match (or whatever term of total completion you want 
to use), when he got these puny deluded mankinds to actually turf their 
Creator out of the environment He had given them.  I'm sure that the 
devil didn't know that this very act was going to be the one by which hell 
would be broken open, and those little characters in the image of God 
actually freed from his grip, perfected, and brought into heaven....!

Remember Acts 4:28, 

"Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people
 of Israel to conspire against Your holy servant Jesus, Whom You anointed.  
 They did what Your power and will had decided beforehand should happen.

	That last line just makes the devil a born loser all the way...

I've wandered off the topic (already!), 

We think in terms of precise actions and deeds.  But these only reflect the
character and spirit within us.  That's on the individual scale. It also
works on the international scale.  That's one reason why God knew - and
still knows - the overall direction He has appointed will be fulfilled.  As 
well as the detail.

The existance of our free will means that we want to behave in a certain
way.  To obey Him - or to disobey Him, up to certain limits...  As the
obedience or disobedience becoomes apparent to our human spirits, it
confirms or denies the way we take.  Until in some cases the very
disobedience is starkly recognised, and rejected, so that the life is 
changed into one of obedience....

Similarly, fallen mankind is progressively in the grip of spirits who would 
reverse the protection of Babel, and set up earthly empires in opposition 
to God.  He knows that a time of ultimate fulfilment of evil will be the 
expression of the man of sin.  Man cannot help himself, when he gives 
himself into the power of evil....  And God gave the prophets a limited 
perception of this, as indicated in 1 Peter 1:10-12, Hebrews 11:13,39...

� If people have seen the future can it be changed? 
If I offer you a glass of water to drink when you're thirsty, without 
saying when, how - or even whether - you're to drink it, who is determining 
what's going to happen to that water?

Wish I had time for more, but the UK is timing out right now....

						God bless
								Andrew

    Watch out for the predestination trap. Although God can see the end
    as well as the beginning, we can not. Therefore, although God has
    ordained those that believe in him from before creation, I have the
    free choice to either accept or deny that prophecy upon me "now", that
    I have believed. (God knows my fate, but I do not).
    
    Therefore Kate, no matter WHAT you do, God has a plan. He knows ALL the
    angles to our lives, all the turns and twists. No matter what path WE
    CHOOSE, He is right there with us. He holds the fabric of our lives
    securely in his hands.
    
    PDM

    PDM Who's Kate...

 Hay, I know her!  :-)

    Shut up Jim H. ! 8^)  Its been one of those days!
         SSShhhhhheeeeesssshhh  you guys! 8^)
    
      PDM_Blushing_and_smiling

    When Jesus said to Peter "Tomorrow you will deny me three times"
    or something to that effect what was this? Was it ESP?
    If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and lose his soul didn't
    he have an obligation to help him NOT lose his soul? Wasn't
    Jesus Omnipotentbefore he was crucified? Didn't he know
    what he was getting into? Thanks.
    
    		-Jim-

RE:     <<< Note 246.6 by MKOTS3::MORANO "Skydivers make good impressions" >>>
                            -< what?! no slack... >-

   . Shut up Jim H. ! 8^)  Its been one of those days!
   .      SSShhhhhheeeeesssshhh  you guys! 8^)
    
    


    :-)

    >> When Jesus said to Peter "Tomorrow you will deny me three times"
    >> or something to that effect what was this? Was it ESP?
    
    	That was a prediction based on Jesus' knowledge of Peter's
    	spiritually imature heart.  It wasn't a *directive*.  
    
    >> If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and lose his soul didn't
    >> he have an obligation to help him NOT lose his soul?
    
    	I've always believed that Judas *didn't* have to lose his soul!
    	There's a parallel between Judas and Peter.  Both betrayed Jesus.
    	Peter repented, Judas did not.
    
    >> Wasn't Jesus Omnipotent before he was crucified? Didn't he know
    >> what he was getting into? Thanks.
    
    	Jesus knew *exactly* what he was "getting into" and did it anyway!
    	He certainly had the power to refuse the cross, in fact He
        struggled with that temptation in the Garden of Gethsemane the
        night He was arrested!  In His omnipotence, he *chose* the way
    	of suffering. That's why He is worthy of our love and praise, eh?
    
    Don/
                      

    	Jim,
    
    ! If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and lose his soul didn't
    ! he have an obligation to help him NOT lose his soul? Wasn't
    	By telling Peter, of this possible event, Jesus was forewarning
        Peter of his lack of faith.
    
    ! Wasn't
    ! Jesus Omnipotentbefore he was crucified?
    	yes, absolutely. 
    
    !                                          Didn't he know
    ! what he was getting into? Thanks.
    	Yes, absolutely. More than we ever will know even after the event.
    
    PDM
       

RE:           <<< Note 246.7 by GLDOA::KATZ "Follow your conscience" >>>

   .    If Jesus knew that Judas would betray him and lose his soul didn't
   . he have an obligation to help him NOT lose his soul? Wasn't
    

     Just like you and me, Judas had the opportunity to save his soul.  And
     Jesus did all He could to help him save his soul...just like you and
     me, Jesus can't make the choice for him.


.Jesus Omnipotentbefore he was crucified? Didn't he know
.    what he was getting into? Thanks.
    
 
  Absolutely...amazing isn't it? 




 Jim

Re: Note 246.9   Don.

>>    	I've always believed that Judas *didn't* have to lose his soul!
>>    	There's a parallel between Judas and Peter.  Both betrayed Jesus.
>>    	Peter repented, Judas did not.

Matthew 27:3 - 5 states:

"Then Judas, which had betrayed Him, when he saw that He was condemned,
 repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the 
 chief priests and elders, saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the
 innocent blood.  And they said, what is that to us?   And he cast down
 the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged him-
 self."

 How does this passage correlate with your statement above?  It would appear
 that Judas was convicted and confessed his sin initially.  Moreover, Peter
 wept bitterly and was remorseful as Judas was.  However, Judas went to the
 extreme and hanged himself.

 -Jack    
    
 

    Judas tried to assauge his guilt by giving the money back.  He
    "repented" of taking a bribe, not necessarily of betraying Jesus.
    He copped out and hung himself.  Had he stuck around, there might have
    been an account of Judas and Jesus by the sea chatting about "feed my
    sheep" the same as Peter and Jesus.
    
    ? Mebbe ?
    
    Don/

    What a touching testimony of forgiveness it would have been had Judas
    and Jesus spoke together at the end of John!  Too bad it happened that
    way.  I agree with your teaching of Judas' motives.  Is it actually
    indicated in the original greek or hebrew, vis-a-vi the word "Repent"
    in the passage as opposed to say the word "repent" in other passages
    such as Acts 2:38?
    
    -Jack

�    When Jesus said to Peter "Tomorrow you will deny me three times"
�    or something to that effect what was this? Was it ESP?

Jesus *knew what was in the heart of man* - John 2:24-25

What you are shows.  Like Ann's last line in 14.5830....

And Jesus gave Peter all the help He could without violating Peter's
personality.  He prayed for him, and told him how he needed to be prayed
for (Luke 22:31).  He also told him to pray himself so that he wouldn't
fall into temptation (Matthew 26:41).  And when Jesus said "it's time to
pray NOW" ..... Peter went to sleep.  And after the event, wept bitterly... 

One way the LORD teaches us is by the failures which are so grievous we're 
more careful for a while not to repeat them...

I understand Judas to have had only remorse (as in other translations),
rather than true repentance.  As if, on review, he realised that his act
was socially incorrect or illegal (and, maybe, politically hasty), rather
than the ultimate spiritual rejection. 

Also a comparison;
Judas' betrayal was premeditated and deliberate.  He formed the plan even
while continuing in Jesus' company, and even as a negative reaction to
Jesus' wisdom and love (John 12:4-6, cf Mark 14:1-10). 

Peter's denial was a hot-headed reaction out of a temporary fear.  Far from 
premeditating it, he was resolved that it wouldn't happen (Matthew 26:33).  
And it's significant to see that his grief was awakened not only by the 
reminder of the crowing cock, but also by the direct regard of the LORD 
(Luke 22:61).

I'm not making excuses for Peter, or comparing sin for sin;  I'm saying 
that the evidence we are given indicates that Judas had rejected Jesus in 
his heart, while Peter still had a heart for the LORD.  All of us are
fallible, and have weaknesses (cf Galatians 6:1), but falling does not take
us out of the place of repentance (1 John 1:9).  A consistent lifestyle of
persistent and unrepented falling might show that we were never in the
place of repentance.  God knew Esau's heart, which was why He could 
indicate that there was no place of repentance (Hebrews 12:17).

It's important that God knows the heart.  Judas had not reached the limit
of God's patience, but the limit of his own spiritual measure.  Remember
the Amorites, of Genesis 15:16.  Even their sin had to reach full measure
before it could be quenched, and judgement fell. 


						God bless
								Andrew

    Andrew:
    
    Then Judas was an apostle but he was not a disciple?  He was chosen by
    Jesus as one of the twelve  yet he did not follow Christ in his heart.
    
    -Jack

      jack,
         My friend you have it a little backwards here:
    
    ! Then Judas was an apostle but he was not a disciple?
    
       Judas was a disciple, not an apostle.
    
    !                                                      He was chosen by
    ! Jesus as one of the twelve  yet he did not follow Christ in his heart.
    
    	Almost 100%. Jesus, called him to follow, Judas did for a while.
    Then the Earthly temptations of money (which was his nature),
    called too. Judas CHOSE to deny God and for 30 pieces of silver turn
    the Christ, (Master) in.  Judas may never have fully comprehended
    the Christ, and therefore only saw personal gain and not spritual gain.
    (If Judas had not betrayed Christ, something else would have happened
    such that Jesus would be slain. Judas' act is not pivitol to the story
    of salvation other than 'he' was the one. It could have been any one
    else. It could have been another event. What IS pivotal is the fact
    that Christ Died for the sins of the world. This Christ knew, from the
    start, I doubt he was pleased with Judas, but I am certain he would
    have taken him back had he repented.
    
     PDM
    

    If he was not an apostle, then the phrase "the twelve apostles"
    commonly used is inaccurate.  I thought an apostle was somebody who was
    actually called by Jesus. (This is why Paul was called an apostle out
    of season).  Since Judas is listed in the gospels as having been called
    with the other eleven, it would stand to reason he was in fact an
    apostle.  A disciple is one who follows Jesus wholeheartedly and is
    built in the faith to be set apart (Holy) from the world.  Judas as you
    indicated did not emulate this.  This is how I drew my original
    conclusion.
    
    Psalm 41:9 - "Yea, mine own familiar friend in whom I've trusted, which
    did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
    
    Matthew 26:23  "...He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the
    same shall betray me.:
    
    It is true that Judas is in the equation as "the culprit", but
    according to the prophecy above, it would have to have been somebody
    who was close to Jesus, somebody in a position of trust.  I would
    deduce that the betrayer had to be an apostle since they were the 
    immediate branches of Christ's ministry.
    
    -Jack
         

    This discussion has gotten off topic...
    
    Let's get back on track..
    
    I will be moving the Apostle discussion to the appropriate topic.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    Co-Mod CHRISTIAN
    
    

    Notes 246.19 - 246.40 have been moved to topic 127 on Apostles.
    Please continue that discussion there. 
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    Co-Mod Christian

    
    So is there a difference between 'Fate' and 'predestination' ?
    
    It seems to me both are similar in meaning. I was once told that
    what 'fate' is to an unbeliever is 'predestination' to a believer.
    
    Can someone explain further?
    
          Mike
    
    

I would distinguish between the two this way:


Predestination is something that is going to happen to you no matter
what you do.  Fate is something that is going to happen to you because
of what you do.

Sometimes your fate could be to be in the right place at the right time
or vice versa.  With Predestination, you are always in the right place,
even if it is the wrong place to be.

That's the difference to me, anyway.

    
    
      <<< Note 246.22 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

I would distinguish between the two this way:


Predestination is something that is going to happen to you no matter
what you do.  Fate is something that is going to happen to you because
of what you do.

>>> What is your definition of "right" & "wrong" places? >>>
    
Sometimes your fate could be to be in the right place at the right time
or vice versa.  With Predestination, you are always in the right place,
even if it is the wrong place to be.

>>> So 'fate' could be either for or against oneself but 'predestination'
    is always a win-win situation.>>>
    
That's the difference to me, anyway.
    
    >>> Any sriptural references to give the diff between 'fate' &
    'predestination'?  >>>
    
    
              Mike

>Predestination is something that is going to happen to you no matter
>what you do.  Fate is something that is going to happen to you because
>of what you do.
>
>>>> What is your definition of "right" & "wrong" places? >>>

I use the terms right and wrong places inthis context very loosely.
Someone wrote a story in the conference about a person who was having
good luck and bad luck (so it seemed), but each time the person would
answer "who knows?" and what seemed like bad luck turned out to be fortunate
(breaking a leg prevented a son from being drafted by the army. etc.).

>Sometimes your fate could be to be in the right place at the right time
>or vice versa.  With Predestination, you are always in the right place,
>even if it is the wrong place to be.
>
>>>> So 'fate' could be either for or against oneself but 'predestination'
>   is always a win-win situation.>>>

Again, I use the terms lightly.  Strict predestinationists would say that
some are predestined to destruction.  It is the right place, because it
is the correct place; it is the wrong place because it is destruction.

I think there is little difference between the definitions of predestination
and fate, but those are the shades of meaning that I see.

>    >>> Any sriptural references to give the diff between 'fate' &
>    'predestination'?  >>>

Nope.  Even a search of the online Bible shows no occurrences of the word
fate.

.21>    what 'fate' is to an unbeliever is 'predestination' to a believer.

Back to this statement: I think that you'll find that what a believer understands
about predestination can vary from believer to believer.  I believe in
predestination, but I am decidedly of the Wesleyan Arminian persuasion
of free will to choose.  I see predestination as seeing the outcome
from the beginning, and fate as determining an outcome from beginnings.

Mark

    Some might respond, "Predestination is what delivers you from fate." :-)
    
    Mark L.

   ;-)