Conference yukon::christian_v7

	It doesn't sound silly to me.  It's great that you're interested in
starting this discussion.

	One thing to keep in mind is that we, as Christians, are having
God's law written on our hearts.  This is not an excuse for a cop-out.
It actually means that Jesus can hold us to a much higher standard (by his
Holy Spirit within us) than the letter of the law (by trying to keep it).

	God owns us.  All that we are and have, are rightfully his.  He
allows us access to wealth, so that we can use it for his purposes.  We
can't just "pay off" God with 10%, and squander the other 90% on ourselves.
A very important part of God's plan is for us to provide for our families.
Yet, isn't it strange how some of the least wealthy families can be the most
generous to others?  It's a "loaves-and-fishes" kind of paradox.

	The law of God and most churches teach that a 10% tithe should go
to the place of worship.  It is important to share fellowship often, to
stay accountable to pastors and other Christians within a local church.
This helps us to avoid pitfalls of lying to ourselves that we really mean
well, and will start tithing and contributing to God's work, just as soon
as we feel we can afford it.  I'm preaching to myself on this topic.  Sure
hope I'm listening...

    
    	The 10% would be considered from your gross earnings.
    
    	What do I think ?  I think the principal of the tithe
    	comes down to trust.  If I give God 10%, do I trust Him
    	to meet my needs ?  If my bills suddenly double, do I cut
    	back on the tithe ?  If so, why ?  Is it that I no longer think
    	God can meet my needs ?  Or, is it that I never really put the
    	trust in God that went along with my tithing, but rather thought
    	I could "afford" it , so I would.
    
    	I guess I believe we should tithe regardless of the circumstances,
    	and that 10% is a minimum, not a maximum.  Offerings and charitable
    	contributions would be in addition to the 10%.
    
    	Karen
    

    On payday I withdraw all my earnings in cash and then toss it all up
    into the air. Whatever God wants he keeps, whatever falls to the ground
    is mine.
    
    ;-)

Although our society is somewhat godless, the fact is, a significant
portion of our taxes (unlike the Roman Emperor's taxes) go to do God's
work of serving the poor, providing for orphans and widows, and otherwise
benefit the community.

What effect this has on the 10% we owe to God is a matter of individual
conscience.

/john

    
    God doesn't need our 10%.

    No, he wants MUCH MUCH more. 
    

 I'm always saying as soon as I get my finances in order I'm going to
 start tithing..I suppose we all do that, not only with tithing but other
 areas of our spiritual walk that require committment.  I've wrestled 
 and fooled around and felt guilty over not tithing, and guilty over the
 weeks when I could only put a measley amount in the plate.  I've recently
 arrived at an amount that I can give each week and maintain the financial
 committments I have.  

 Sounds crazy and disobedient perhaps.  But I know I can remain faithful 
 to the amount I've committed for each week (which is a bit less than 10%)
 til things are back on track.  I will continue to toss in more as I can
 and also help out some of our kids who are leaving for Bible college this
 week when I can.  God, as well as my local church, has blessed my life
 so much that 10% is too little to give.




 Jim

    I agree with .5 and .6 .  God doesn't *need* anything from us.  But
    He wants us to yield *everything* to Him.
    
    Mark L.

    Markel,
    
    Can you expound on what you mean by God doesn't *need* anything from
    us, but wants us to yield *everything*?  This sounds contradictory to
    me.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

>    Can you expound on what you mean by God doesn't *need* anything from
>    us, but wants us to yield *everything*?  This sounds contradictory to
>    me.
    
    Psalms 50:7 Hear, O my people, and I will speak; O Israel, and I will
        testify against thee: I am God, even thy God.
      8 I will not reprove thee for thy sacrifices or thy burnt
        offerings, to have been continually before me.
      9 I will take no bullock out of thy house, nor he goats out of thy
        folds.
     10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a
        thousand hills.
     11 I know all the fowls of the mountains: and the wild beasts of the
        field are mine.
     12 If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine,
        and the fulness thereof.
     13 Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats?
     14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High:
     15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and
        thou shalt glorify me.
    
    God has no need of what we give, as He possesses everything in the
    universe.  However, God will use what we willingly give to Him, and the
    gifts that are made in faith mean the most.
    
    Mark 12:41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld
        how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that
        were rich cast in much.
     42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two
        mites, which make a farthing.
     43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them,
        Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more
        in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:
     44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her
        want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.
     
    Notice it is not *what* was cast in, but *how* it was cast in that
    matters to the Lord.  "Every man according as he purposeth in his
    heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth
    a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7)  He wants us to give, but in a willing
    way.  I believe that all I have belongs to God; He has committed to me
    to be a faithful steward.  Thus, I yield everything to Him.
    
    Mark L.
        

    Thanks Markel,
    
    This makes it more clear to me.
    
    Nancy :-)

	No offense intended, but .5 and .6 don't really say much.

	Dan, want to expand on your reply ?  Are you agreeing with the
	principal of the tithe, disagreeing, or just tossint in a comment ?

	Phil, I agree with you, but you haven't addressed tithing either.

	Karen

	

    
    
    I think Mark stated it quite well, the only point I was trying to make
    was that God does not need our 10% tithe.  We sometimes get hung up on
    this 10% tithe thing.  What is a tithe? Isn't it simply being obedient
    to God?  Doesn't God ask us to 'surrender all'?  You see some people
    give their 10% and feel that they have done the job....you see God
    doesn't need our 10%, he wants our 100%, when we realize that it is
    better to give 100% then the 10% will seem small

I just happened to get out the figures.

Of the 19% of my gross income that went to federal income tax,
14% went to Physical, human, and community development,
14% went to medicaid, food stamps, AFDC, SSSI, health research and public
    health, unemployment compensation, assisted housing, and social services
32% went to social security, medicare, and other retirement

Of the 5.5% of my gross income that went to Massachusetts income tax,
45% went to health and human services

This means that my voluntary contributions to church and other charities
(hunger relief, flood relief, homes for unwed mothers, etc.) are after
the 14% contributed for the welfare of my neighbors through the federal
and state government.  (This doesn't count debt service on programs that
were deficit financed.)

But it's still not enough.

"When ye have done all that is commanded of you, say, `We are still
unprofitable servants.'"

/john

    My comment was in alignment with that of Dan. I feel that the 10%
    number is a beginning and not sufficient. God requires 100%. If we give
    all we have to God, then God in His infinite wisdom will know what to
    do with it. For me, the thought behind tithing is "TRUST". Trust in
    God for all things and give to God all that which has been placed in
    my care.
    
    PDM

    And I kinda figured what both you guys were saying, so that's why I
    agreed with you both. :-)
    
    Mark L.

    yea, I agree with Markel. 8^)

	Thanks, I wasn't trying to be dense (it just happens, at times).

	I agree with you both.

	(that's Dan, Phil, and Markel ;-) )
	
	Karen

    I understand what you are saying... but in my church alone, the
    statistics show that near 42% of the congregation are *not* tithing. 
    To say that God doesn't need our tithe without explanation, can be a
    bit misleading... because God does command us to tithe and sometimes
    even if it's just out of obedience and not necessarily with the *right*
    spirit, God *will* bless and His work will be done.
    
    I believe sometimes our loyalty and obedience, though may seem cold at
    times is commanded and rewarded regardless of the emotional state
    behind them.  
    
    If we served God only when we felt like it, the church would get very
    little done, don't you think?
    
    Nancy

    God's Word is pretty clear on the subject of Tithing.  It's a
    requirement from both the Old and New testaments.
    
    Here's a few things to think about:
    
    	Why is it that $100.- seems so little at the grocery store each
    	week, yet looms so LARGE in an offering plate?
    
        If you fail to tithe (or even "give a little") you are saying to
    	God that every OTHER purchase you made this week was MORE important
    	that supporting his kingdom.  BTW, this logic works with personal
    	devotions: If you don't spend time today with your Heavenly Father,
    	you're telling Him that everything *else* you did today was more
    	important than spending time with Him! (Works with spouses too, but
    	I digress!)
    
    	A woman aked my father (he's a pastor): "Pastor, when I'm
        figuring my tithe and it comes out to a half-cent, is it okay to
    	keep the half-cent or am I supposed to put it in with my tithe?"
    	He told her she might as well stop tithing, because she "just isn't
    	getting the idea." The Lord loves a cheerful giver...
    
    So... HOW do you START tithing? 
    
    	It's just like excersize: Give until it hurts, then keep giving
    	until it *stops* hurting.  Then give until it hurts again.
    	That's the same way you build up for a marathon, right?
    
    	Start this month giving 1%.  Give it *every* week right off the
    	top of your paycheck.  ("First-fruits") Next month, give 2%, in
    	ten months, you'll be a tither.  Don't let anything pre-emp it.
        The point is, you're giving God a budget-line-item priority.

 Thank you for that.






 Jim

    .20
    
    That was a great encouragement. :-)  Now if I could only get *that*
    joke!
    
    Nancy

242.13 Dan Yackel

>God doesn't need our 10%, he wants our 100%.

This caught my eye.  I want to add to it.
God doesn't need our tithe, but he does want it.  Why?

Why does God want our tithe?  (I have thoughts and have been over this topic
many times - isn't it in this version of the conference already? Oh, well. 
- I'll let it hang there for someone else to answer for now).

I'll repeat a story I entered in here a short while ago.

Billy Graham was sitting in church with his wife whenthe offering was being
collected.  Billy took out a ten and a five and tossed the ten in the plate.
When he realized what he had done, he went to get it out of the plate which 
had been passed to his wife by that time.  She smacked his hand and asked,
"what do you think you're doing?"

"I meant to throw in the five instead," came his explanation.

"Don't worry," she said passing the plate and his ten along with it.
"It was a five to God."
-------------------------

.0 Michael Lee

If the Lord is speaking to you about tithing, be sure to quiet yourself
before the Lord after listening to all the voices here as to whether
tithing is legalistic and not required, or a biblical principle of trusting
in God.  After all, if the is the Lord's opinion in the matter that matters.

    
    
    Thanks to all who replied.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Mike

    I was going thru a couple of the other Christian notes and I came
    across the topic of "Tithing".      It is located in   
                      Atlana::Christain_v4 
                         under note 95.
                      There are 64 replies.
     Even though the entries were done in March of '92, it shares some good
     comments.      
    							~Richard~

    Hello Mike, 
    
    
    I have the following to add:
    
    
    1)  "Test me in this and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of
    heaven and pour out so much blessing that you have no room enough of it"
    
   -------   Malachi 
    
    
    2) Statistics said that 20 percent of the typical congregation contribute 
       80 percent of the tithes. It is therefore a tremendous blessing that 
       we belong to the 20 percent group who tithe.
    
    3) I am yet to hear from any person who overtime get poorer after tithing
       faithfully. I was having a bank overdraft of almost a third of my annual
       salary for 15 long years (what a financial bondage)and when I started 
       to tithe progressively towards the 10 percent guess what ? 
       Just barely in 6 months my bank account amount turned positive.
    
    
    4) Tithing is a way of worshipping God and also reflect on our faith in
       God. I know and also had experienced how ironical it is when you were in
       debt and yet you start to tithe. 
    
    5) I agreed with John Covert that God is not picky about the absolute
       percentage but rather what's in the heart. 
       If you want to go into the absolute 10 percent how to you reconcile 
       the fact that in Abraham's times the 10 percent collection would include
       the tax plus the tithe. We, in the modern days have to pay tax on top
       of the tithes. 
    
    6) I have a friend who is earning a good income and yet always for some
       reasons cannot make ends meet. However, once he tithes faithfully, his
       financial situation improve tremendously. That very month he put in the
       bag and that very month he receives 2 teaching contracts which
       brought in much more than he puts in the bag.
    
    
    In summary I believe folks in this Note have plenty of testimonies to
    share.
    
    
    Praise God,
    
    Jeffrey
                                  
     
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
     
    

	Thanks Jeffrey,

	that scripture from Malachi was roaming around in my head this
	morning, but I couldn't recall it fully...

	Karen

    Good stuff on the tithing question!
    
    I've distinguished between the OT teachings and NT teachings.  In the
    Old Testament, the tithe was 10%, and was a sort of tax/tithe.  But
    that was the minimum.  On top of that, many specific offerings were
    brought to the Temple for feasts, etc.  In addition, there was the
    Jubilee year, where all debts were forgiven...  This was giving for
    those under the Law.
    
    In the NT, the governing principle is 2 Corinthians 9:6-7, "Remember
    this:  Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever
    sows generously will also reap generously.  Each man should give what
    he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under
    compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."  The rule under Grace is
    to give what God lays on your heart to give, and to do it generously
    and cheerfully/joyfully.  So, I'd answer that there is no tithe - that
    makes it too easy.
    
    The real challenge is twofold:  What needs is God presenting to me, for
    me to meet?  and What do I need to live on?  For the first, we need to
    examine our responsibilities to support our church, others that
    minister to us, and to those in need.  It's pretty free form, but puts
    the responsibility on us to give to meet needs.  For the second, I've
    known people that decided early on, what standard of living they needed
    (not wanted).  When they met that standard, they gave the rest away. 
    That led one anesthesiologist to give over 50% of his income.  Chuck
    Colson gives all of the proceeds of his books, speaking, etc. to Prizon
    Fellowship, and takes a salary adequate to meet his needs.  
    
    The great part about living under Grace, not the law, is that we're not
    limited to obeying the letter of the law!
    
    Hope that helps.
    
    - Don Randall

Just a nit.  Don't say "OT vs NT" because there is no incongruity between
the two!  The New Testament is a FULFILLMENT of the Old Testament and NOT
a change in it!

OT into the NT
Action into Attitude

So while the letter of the law passes to the spirit of the law, the letter
is hinged upon the spirit.  

Matthew 22 (note verse 40)
 37  Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy
heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
 38  This is the first and great commandment.
 39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as
thyself.
 40  On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The law and the prophets are NOT abolished, yet the letter is bound up
in the spirit of the law.

As someone said earlier, if we're thinking about how much I should be
giving so that I can split the penny, then we're bound by the letter
of the law and not the spirit of it.  But if we're looking for a baseline
from the spirit of the law (that is, what does God WANT [not need] from me?),
we can see historically what He has asked of His people and go from there
according to the blessing and abundance He bestows upon us!

Mark

    The Lord has really worked in my heart over the last year on tithing
    and what a lesson I have learned.  God is so good, and no matter what
    situation you are in he will provide your needs.  
    
    I was in debt to the point I thought there was no way out.  I did not
    feel I could tithe at the time because I could not afford it.  So over
    time and much nudging from the Lord I put total trust in him and began
    to tithe.  I can say today I am debt free, and he has also blessed my
    husband who is not a christian and does not tithe with a great job, but
    the real praise is that my husband feels that all of these good things
    came from God.
    
    I don't feel that one should tithe to get out of debt, or that if you
    tithe you will come into a lot of money, but if you tithe with a
    cheerful heart, not expecting anything from God because you tithe he
    will bless that sacrifice of giving with fulfilling your needs.  
    
    In His Love,
    
    Sasha

    Sasha,
    
    Thanks for writing that.  The thing that stands out in my mind, is that
    you tithe even though your husband, who isn't a Christian doesn't. :-) 
    Sasha that is faith.  I pray that it hasn't been too sore a spot in
    your marriage.  My ex absolute had a fit if I put $5.00 in the offering
    plate.  But from the allowance that I had each week, I managed to put
    something in... God blessed richly the small amount given. :-)
    
    Thanks again,
    Nancy

The specifics of tithing as I see it.

  OR My Financial Testimony.

	I have journeyed on both sides of this issue during my 
walk with God. Due to the events listed, I find that it is
impossible to out give God. I also find that any tithe is
against the gross and not the net income. (all income) And
the last statement is, if you do not or can not give whatever
you decide with a cheerful hart and not due to duty it 
profits you nothing.

	When I accepted God I was strapped with bills and always
robbing Peter to pay Paul. I started to tithe $19 a week and it
hurt. Or did it? All of my tithing life I have made it a point 
to write out the tithe check first. It was a decision I made
up front that God would always get his first. I saw immediately
money left over at the end of the month in my checking account.
Some because of proper money management and other because of
opportunities to make more income that was not there previous
to our decision to tithe. As my tithe amount grew so did my
income. I also made it a point that a percentage of my tithe
would be in cash as love offerings and not tax deductions.
One of those times I had written my tithe check but did not
put it in the plate. The following Monday on the way home
from work I stopped to help a van on the highway. The folks
were from a Christian 12 step program in Lodi California. As
it turned out they had just left a meeting and were headed 
back to Lodi when the van ground to a halt. The starter drive
had not disengaged and froze up stalling the engine. Well I
drove them all in my van to my house and picked up some tools.
Went back and fixed the van, filled it up with gas and guess
how much it cost. The amount of my tithe that I did not put
in the plate. They could not believe that I would do that
even though they were a Christian organization. Time after time
God has proved his covenants in the Bible to me on giving.
We have not just survived the DEC transitions ( my wife after
16 years ) but come out the other side better off financially
and spiritually. 

	The most recent evidence of God's hand on our
finances was last Christmas. God had warned Sally and I that
we were going to go down to one wage in two years. Not 
knowing which wage it would be we chose to live off of the
lesser of the two, mine. So in two years we went from $100k
a year to $42k. A substantial hit in anyone's book. At this
time we were supporting a Pastor in N.C. during the startup
of a new church to the tune of $340 month. When Sally was
transitioned last September we told Joe that we would 
no longer be able to maintain the level of support we were
currently sending. So we gave him a lump sum out of Sally's
severance to make up for the difference of what we were
currently giving and what we could now maintain of $90
per month for the next 9 months. We re evaluate the need
every June as we all should do when we are deciding where
God's money should go. However this just did not sit right
with me. When we went to visit Joe during Christmas we were
talking of this and Joe stated and asked that the money 
was just not there to give. I said "I know but it doesn't
make it feel any better". I truly felt that Our level of 
support was to continue and not to diminish even though
we had made a lump sum tithe to hold him over. As we 
cried out to the Lord we got no response, or so we thought.
Upon returning to work my manager called me into his office
and stated that he had tried to get to me before I left
on Vacation. He then handed me the largest raise I have ever
received. 14% in a time of austerity and transitions. I had 
nothing to say except Thank You. As I left his office, I 
wondered what the net increase to my check would be just
out of curiosity. I had been tithing $340 to Joe. I was
now tithing $90. The net increase to my monthly take home
pay was $250.24. God had started to answer a cry from the
heart of Sally and I 3 months prior to it being uttered. 

	This is not book learning in my life. It is a way
of life that cannot be disputed or denied for us. I have
never gone without during my tithing years. I cannot make
that statement for the years prior to coming to the Lord
or during the 13 years of backsliding prior to coming
back to God 4 years ago. It is not a tool to wave in front
of God but another way to touch the Father Heart of God
when we submit our finances to the Lord.

	I hear the 10% thing allot and I remember that Jesus
gave it all on the cross. It doesn't seem to wash that we 
get to keep 90% and get everlasting life too. Quite a deal
in my eyes.


In Christ

David

    David,
    
    God is *so* good. Praising Him for your faith and His faithfulness.
    
    

Thanks to all who encouraged us in these notes.  I remember the discussion in
the last conference, but this is one I think should be entered anew each time.
There will always be someone like me who has more recently started a direct
program of tithing, and this always helps.  

I also have a question.  Why do you interpret tithing as giving only to the
local church?  I have always intrepreted "The Church" and/or even my fellowship
as extending beyond a congregation or even a denomination.  Furthermore, the
10% left in the field was directly taken by the people in need.  I have never
heard this discussed seriously at all, so am quite open on this, in spite of
what the above may sound like.

Lew

Hi Lew,

We tithe in chunks - partly via "the plate" in church, partly by sponsoring 
missions, partly by anonymous gifts to those we know need it.

Chele

    Hi Lew,
    
    
    I believe that we should tithe to the church that gives us the 
    spiritual food and the accountability of our well being as member. 
    Next, the 10 percent that we turn in belongs absolutely to God and we 
    have no say as where it should go. In fact we said to be robbing God if 
    we do not tithe faithfully in the book of Malachi. 
                
    However, on top of the 10 percent which we call it offering, you may have
    choices as to dictate whether it goes into the church mission fund,
    anonymous gifts or any other charitable organisations that the church 
    are sponsoring.
    
    Jeff
     
    
    

For us

The famous 10% goes to the "churchs" Sally and I go to/support in the ratio
we get fed. Our faith offerings go th the various radio/tv evangelistic 
ministries we support.(faith in that they will do God's work with the offerings)
And our love offerings go to wherever God tells us the need is.

Another point I am amazed no one has jumped on yet is not tithing because "THEY"
just misuse the funds therefore I'll not send any of mine. Well good try but
not scriptural. We are all only responsable for what we do with our stuff. It 
doesn't mean we are not to check it out as best we can, but we will never be
asked about what "X ministry" did with our money when standing before the
judgment seat of God. Only if we were faithful with what God asked us to to.

My two "mites"

Dave

	Yes, Dave.  We went through a bit of turmoil in my family
	when some of the ministries we'd been supporting came under
	fire.

	I think my husband felt cheated.  I felt that the Lord would
	bless our giving, and that if those ministries that we had
	supported misused the funds, that God would deal with them.

	In giving to those ministries, we felt we were giving back to
	God, not to XXX ministries, so the dispensation of the money
	was not ours to reckon with.  (Which is not to say we don't
	or shouldn't exercise wisdom in our giving, only that when
	we give in a right spirit and someone betrays that with
	misuse, we are not accountable.)

	I'm sure this didn't come out right, but I'm off to a meeting...

	Karen

Thanks for the answers.  All are helpful.  In fact my next
question might well have been about how we should view those to
whom the money is going.  The particular point in that regard
is with respect to the denominations which fund the world
council of churches.  You have presented a side that I had
not heard or though of before.

Lew

    
    To continue the discussion of where should your tithing go.  I realize
    that we should not be concern, but as in previous notes, we are to be
    wise.  
    Our church has just started pushing the "value" of tithing. (I don't
    want to get into the reasons why, we have or havenot).  But our Pastor
    made the comment, If everyone tithed, than no one would be in need of
    anything, using the scripture in the Acts of the Apostle where everyone
    was of one mind and one heart.  And what was mine was yours, etc.  If
    there was a need it would be taken care of through the congregation.
    
    Can that be one area, where tithing can be used and people know that
    this is where the money is going.
    
    I am just concerned.
    
    Leslie
    
    BTW, thanks for bringing up this subject.  It has been a major subject
    in our discussions at church lately.  I am sharing some of your
    thoughts with others.
    

Just my opinion  re .40

the same tithing we talk about today. In Acts everyone sold all they had and
gave it to the church and were in one accord. If infact we returned to that
frame of mind and had church leadership that resembled the Apostles his 
statment would hold true. However I have met few individuals that had the
same apostolic integrity spoken of and displayed in the Bible.

	I do know that according to nation wide polls in America today, less
than 20% of church attendees tithe. Astounding as it may seem it is true.
Your pastor has a ligitimate beef. However arm twisting is not the answer. I
wish it was. As the lives of myself and our leadership do not reflect the 
qualities of the Apostles, why do we think we can make the same requests of 
our church as they did in Acts. Simply put, We cannot. If however we as 
leadership would fall on our faces before the Lord and repent of our gluttony,
God would hear from Heaven and heal our land. In this area of my life, I lead
by example for it is much easier to pull a chain than push it.

David

I've been buried at work and home of late so I've not kept up with the
numerous notes so if my note is repetitive, sorry. 
When I look at the examples regarding "giving" I see a clear message.
Consider the example the apostle Paul gave. He tried very hard not to 
bring an undue financial burden on the congregation. This is shown in
Acts 18:3 were it points out he worked as a tentmaker. Also 1 Thess 2:9
shows he worked hard and didn't want to burden others financially. 
That's not to say there was never a need to help support Paul. He
certainly deserved support. As 1 Timothy 5:18 brings out"..The workman 
is worthy of his wages." But Paul certainly didn't abuse any financial 
support he was given.
As for how much to give.. Christians are encouraged to support the
ministry both via their own activity as well as by material contributions.
2 Corinthians 9 touches on this, especially verse 7 "Let each one do
just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion,
for God loves a cheerful giver." The importance isn't really upon the
amount given. The account I think really shows this is the account of the
needy widow who gave two small coins of little value. It's found at
Luke 21:1-4 and Mark 12:41-44. Read it and notice Jesus' observation.
There is truth in Jesus's words "There is more happiness in giving than
there is in receiving." Acts 20:35. If we give with the right attitude
and purpose we'll be happy and have God's blessing. Proverbs 3:9
tells us to honor God with our valuable things. This is of course not
just material things but also our time and energies. Verse 10 tells
us we'll be richly rewarded for this.

    To add to -1 and my criticism of tithing in the last version of this
    conference, I wholeheartedly agree that grace giving is in.  There are
    no NT examples of tithing.
    
    The outline of Christian giving is in I Corinthians 16:1-4.
    
    Mike

================================================================================
Note 242.34  MIMS::GULICK_L
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Why do you interpret tithing as giving only to the local church?
>I have always intrepreted "The Church" and/or even my fellowship
>as extending beyond a congregation or even a denomination.
          --------------------------------------------------

I do interpret tithing as going to the local church.  "Bring your tithes
into the storehouses..."  Where are the stroehouses located except locally?
Secondly, tithing has a pragmatic purpose, such at the functioning of the
physical church - electric and heat, welfare of the clergy, materials for
education and evangelizing.

What do you want your church to be doing?  If your congregation provides
only as much as to support a Pastor, what ministries will be funded?

Now some of you send some of your tithe to other ministries.  I don't know
how your church structure is set up, but my church sends some of my tithe
to other ministries.  The argument is who can make the better choice, I
suppose, the church body or the individual, and to be sure both have their
share of stewardship foibles.  Some external ministries absorb most
contributions as overhead, sometimes 85� on the dollar.  Some ministries
through the collective strength of a denomination (or collection of
independent churches) can flip that ratio putting 85� on the dollar into
the mission field or other ministries.

Let me illustrate why it is important to give locally.  What some people
consider to be a terrible thing - siphoning some of the local money off to
support the larger church on a district and worldwide level - can be
thought of in the same way taxes are in the secular government.

Taxes are not bad; bad taxes are bad.  Taxes provide essential services
that a local body cannot. Imagine if everyone was responsible to pave the
road in front of their street.  In one sense we are, but we don't go out
and get the materials and pave 100 feet of road.  The money goes into city
coffers and (if things are done right) the whole road gets paved when it
needs it.  By giving to many ministries (in the name of stewardship, of
course), it is like paving your section of the street and telling the city
that you'll deduct that from your taxes.

Perhaps I should not have used something as diskliked as taxes, but in
giving to the local church, new churches can be started through the help
of many small churches that could not afford to do so on their own.

In our church, a group of people are elected each year to deal with the
pragmatics of running a church and ministries.

================================================================================
Note 242.40 JUPITR::LCLARK
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>But our Pastor made the comment, If everyone tithed, than no one would be
>in need of anything, using the scripture in the Acts of the Apostle where
>everyone was of one mind and one heart.
================================================================================
Note 242.41 CIM1::FLOYD
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Your pastor has a ligitimate beef. However arm twisting is not the answer. I
>wish it was.

          --------------------------------------------------

If every *member* (let alone attenders) tithed in my church, we would jump
from an operating revenue of $230,000 to $630,000.  What ministry
opportunities are lost because some people are not "bringing their tithes
into the store house"?  What could be done with another $400,000?  And for
those not tited to the "legalism of the tithe," where is the spirit of the
law found in the giving?  If this were so for all of the members of *my*
church we should be seeing much more than $630,000, not less!

I agree that arm-twisting is not the answer.  The answer is a change of
hearts in the people, individually.  However, simply because a Pastor
preached tithing and giving doesn't constitute arm-twisting.  let each man
examine his heart in the matter.  It is the resposibility of the minister
to declare the robbing of God and the responsibility of the individual to
react as the Spirit moves and not as the root of bitterness embitters.

Mark

re. .44

Thanks, Mark, for the direct answer I was looking for.  I need to think
and pray about this aspect of giving now.  I may have more questions
later.

However, it does lead to a related question.  Should the church have a
function of support of members who are poor, lost their jobs, etc.  In
a way, this is the corollary to an earlier observation about part of
the original tithe being for things now performed by govt. or other
programs.  I, as many others, have concluded that we should largely
ignore the government existence in this regard when making the tithe.
Now there are 2 parts to the corollary: Should we also ignore the
services offered by government as unsuitable theologically (e.g. the
way Roman Catholics have always ignored the public schools)? and: Should
we ignore these services now that many have proved to be of dubious
value, while sometimes imposing restrictions we can't live with?

To use a blunt example, it bothers me that we do not directly care for
orphans as we once did; and that we would probably run afoul of most
of our government if we did.

Lew

	Lew,

	I do not consider what the government does for people when
	giving.  When I give at my local church, I believe I am giving
	directly into the hands of God.  If he uses the money to bless
	someone that may also benefit from the government, it's moot to me.

	Karen

Let me echo Karen's sentiments about giving into the hands of God.
I know that any organization won't be perfect, but we are given
talents and are to manage them as wisely as possible (not burying
them).  (Putting them at the bank with interest is better than
burying them.)

Helping the local church body has a more direct result of your giving.
Consider an independent church (lest I be accused of merely supporting
the denominational model).  I would venture to guess that if "all
the tithes were brought into the storehouse" for a local congregation,
there would be enough to share among those people so that none would
have any lack (let alone having the wherewithal to also perform acts of 
charity outside the local organization).

Bringing the denomination back into the picture, it simply multiplies
the effect, because (in most all cases) a denomination is simply a
collection of like-minded local congregations, pooling resources for
the greater good.

I also keep the government's contribution (taxes) distinct from my tithe.
Whatever charity the government provides, I am assured that it is grossly
mismanaged, no matter how inept a local congregation might be at dealing
with collective finances.  Further, though my denomination, I am supporting
charity and missions as part of a pooled resource on a global scale, which
I am assured is done to maximize the ministry dollar.  (Would you
rather buy 85 meals for $50 or 15 meals for the same amount of money?
If my organization can provide that kind of difference, then good stewardship
is an easy descision.  [the numbers inthe above example are made up])

Mark

re. last 2.

I must not have been clear.  I was already in agreement with that, and
that became the jumping off point.

Please return to mine (.45, I believe) and review.  I am asking how we
should treat the corollary, directly _in_view_of_ the fact that we
agree to ignore government when tithing.  My question is whether or not
we (as churches) should also ignore their so called "benefits".

Please especially see the orphanage example.

Lew

>My question is whether or not we (as churches) should also ignore 
>their [the government's] so called "benefits".

If you mean to eschew orphanages or gov't sponsored soup kitchens and
do it ourselves, I don't think so.  Rather, let us help those who need 
help.  The Salvation Army says "heart to God and hands to man."  Not
a bad philsophy.  I would hope we have Christians infiltrating and 
permeating all levels of society and leave the mark of the [true] Christianity
with those others who participate in charitable functions within society.

MM

Mark,

Sorry I didn't get back to this sooner.  The Salvation army is a reson
for me to question our acceptance of allowing government to take over
these things.  They are very effective as a counter example to the
official welfare state.

There is a significant history here.  Schools are a prime concern.
Before there was a "public" school system, almost all schools in this
country were started and sponsored by the churches.  It is very safe
to say that we have suffered greatly by allowing schools to slip over
into the government arena.  This is also very relevant to tithing,
since many higher level schools (SMU, Baylor, Duke, ...) have virtually
severed church ties for purely financial reason, particulary state and
federal money.

This matter has come very close to critical at times in the last 20
years or so when courts have decided that any involvement of federal
funds allows federal control.  What will happen if the federal courts
decide that any hospital which accepts any medicare or medicaid patients
must allow abortions?

I have no disagreement with your remarks in .49.  However, there is
some point at which we would be rendering to Ceaser that which is God's.
Have we passed that point, or do you think we are still safe?

Lew

P.S. Will be gone all next week.

Matthew 5:13  Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his
savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but
to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
 14  Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be
hid.

>I have no disagreement with your remarks in .49.  However, there is
>some point at which we would be rendering to Ceaser that which is God's.
>Have we passed that point, or do you think we are still safe?

There is one pendulum swing that wants to spearate the church from the world
like oil and water.  Let them do as they wish and let us do as we wish and
let's not bother each other.  And in fact, this is the [hypcritical] message 
of the world, to leave each other alone, when they're doing anything but 
allowing Christians to do as they please.  The failure of today's Christians
is in buying the message and separating themselves from the world, thinking
it was some sort of truce or something like that.

I am glad and support the idea of church sponsored charities and would
sooner put my money with just about any church charity before a secualr 
one.  However, as Christians, we should be "in the world, but not of it."
We need to be in the secular world to influence the public school system,
in politics to influence the law-makers of our government, and in the
every day world, to show Christ to a dying world.

We need to also keep sight of Who sets up governments and how they are affected.
If government fails, it is certainly the failure of the people who make its
foundations.  And if a government succeeds, it is likewise a result of the
people - who have humbled "themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn 
from their wicked ways."   See example after example in the Bible and in 
history of the rise and fall of governments and study the why's and hows
they fell.

If we think we've begun to render unto Caeser that which is God's, we
need to begin to be salt, be light, humble ourselves (those of us *who are
called by His name!*) and  C H A N G E  the world by our saltiness, our
light, and the power of prayer.

Mark

    The NT mode of giving is addressed in I Corinthians 16:1-4.
    
16:1  Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to
 the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
16:2  Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store,
 as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
16:3  And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I
 send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
16:4  And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.

    1. Giving should be practiced.  It isn't optional and nobody is
       excluded (16:1-2).
    2. Practice planned and predetermined giving.  It should be weekly and
       you need to apply the principle of first fruits.  (16:2)
    3. Giving should be proportionate to, not a percentage of your income.
       Also see Acts 11:29 and Deuteronomy 16:17.
    4.  a.) Giving should be pressureless.  Paul didn't take up collections nor
            use heavy-handed salesmanship.
        b.) Give as the Spirit leads; from the heart.  See also II Corinthians
            9:7 and 10:13-14.
    5. Give with precautions or checks & balances in place (16:3-4).  For
       example, in our church, the person who fills out the checks is not
       allowed to sign them.  There are always at least 2 people involved in
       designating the Lord's funds.
    
    hope this helps,
    Mike

.52 is indeed well worth reading... for giving - offerings.
To say that this precludes or excludes tithing is a presumption.


Mark

>.52 is indeed well worth reading... for giving - offerings.
>To say that this precludes or excludes tithing is a presumption.
    
    I guess you can say I consider those guidelines to be a replacement for 
    tithing under the New Covenant.
    
    Fretz$ conc -s"tithe" matthew 1:1
    
    Matthew 23:23
    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of
    mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
    matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to
    have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    
    Luke 11:42
    But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all
    manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these
    ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    
    Luke 18:12
    I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
    
    Hebrews 7:5
    And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the
    office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the
    people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though
    they come out of the loins of Abraham:
    
    Hebrews 7:6
    But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of
    Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
    
    Hebrews 7:8
    And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of
    whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
    
    Hebrews 7:9
    And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in
    Abraham.
    
    Number of occurances of search: tithe  -  7.

    ...and to remind others why I follow those guidelines in Christian
    giving:
    
The first mention of giving in the Bible is done where Abel made the first
acceptable freewill offering to the Lord.  The next is where Abram  gave a
freewill tithe to Melchizideck.  The next is where Jacob promised a freewill
offering to God based on how he is blessed (he bribed God following his dream
at Bethel).  All of these were spontaneous, one-time events.
    
This shows that Tithing was not practiced until the Law was given.  When the
Law was given, giving/tithing became *required*.  Under the Law, it was not
only mandatory, but complex.  There were many different tithes that had to be
practiced under the law:
    
1. The Lord's Tithe - Leviticus 27:30; wholly to the Lord and used to support
   the priesthood and the temple after it was built (Numbers 18:24).  Malachi
   3:8 refers to this tithe.  10%
2. Festival Tithe - Deuteronomy 12:10-11, 14:22-26; This was a celebration
   fund used to help the Hebrews get to Jerusalem for the feasts and to
   purchase whatever their heart's desired.  You never hear this preached
   today!  10% - 20% running total.
3. Poor Tithe - Deuteronomy 14:28-29; used as a type of social security system
   and had to be given every 3 years.  3-5% - 23-25% running total.
4. Temple Tithe - Nehemiah 10:31-32
5. Sabbatical Tithe - Exodus 23:10-11; rest your fields on 7th year
6. Jubilee Tithe - every 50 years, property returns to original owner.
7. Gleaning (Profit-Sharing type) Tithe - Leviticus 19:9-10; leave food for
   poor in addition to the Poor Tithe.
    
On top of all this, they still wanted to give Father Abraham's way.  This all
easily exceeds 30% of your income.  Freewill giving didn't die out, but was
pushed to the side under the Law.
    
Giving/Tithing is conspicuously silent in the New Testament.  There are only 3
places that address it:  Matthew 23:23 (Luke 11:42 - same passage where Jesus
commends their diligence to the Law but rebukes their heart problem); I
Corinthians 16:1-4; II Corinthians 8 & 9, and the epistles commend Abraham's
freewill method.  There is only 1 passage in the NT that addresses
compenstation of pastors and elders: I Timothy 5:17-18.
    
No percentages are ever declared because a fair and equitable God would not
require us to follow an unfair and inequitable tithing system.  Consider 2
families:  one makes $5,000 per month, the other $500 per month; both tithe
10%, which one benefits?
    
Grace Offerings are the way I believe God wants us to give, according to His
Word.  Tithing in the NT is neither condemned or commended, but we  are called
to give according to what we have.  Grace Giving is counter-culture in today's
church, but tithing as we know it is unscriptural.

    
    re.55 Mike Heiser
 
       
>Grace Offerings are the way I believe God wants us to give, according to His
>Word.  Tithing in the NT is neither condemned or commended, but we  are called
>to give according to what we have.  Grace Giving is counter-culture in today's
>church, but tithing as we know it is unscriptural.
    
    
    In the NT, giving is commended, the woman who put the two coins ALL she
    had in,  Then are you saying that you will give ALL you have?

    
    I agree with Mike Heiser.
    
    jeff

>    In the NT, giving is commended, the woman who put the two coins ALL she
>    had in,  Then are you saying that you will give ALL you have?
    
    Actually, this proves my point more than it does yours.  Jesus
    commended this woman and condemned the Pharisees tithing practices. 
    She gave what she had out of the joy of her heart for what God's grace
    did in her life.  Fits what Paul wrote in I Corinthians like a
    proverbial glove.

    RE - .58
    
    So does your giving of X% bring joy to your heart.
    
    My giving slightly more than 10% does NOT bring joy to my heart. 
    Actually it brings sadness because I want to do more for His glory and
    work.  God does not need my money to do His work, what He wants is my
    obedience.  Tithing has nothing to do with the money but worlds to do
    with being obedient.  
    
    You didn't answer my question.  If the woman proves your point, then I
    assume you give all you have.  Correct assumption?  It has been my
    experience, most of the people who have a problem with tithing and
    claiming ( to the point of all they bring up is the Phariseeism) it no
    longer is relevant are ones who have a problem with obedience to God
    and financially will NOT give to the church.  If His church is so
    important to them, that they are called by His name (Christian) why is
    it so hard to give the 10%.  I have found for my life the 10% is His
    and should go to my local body for distribution.   
    
    I am not here to argue over the 10% because I have read the notes over
    the past 3 years that continually argue over whether or not you should
    tithe and as most of the notes in the conference go are a circle.  But
    your note sparked a once in a while urge to respond.  
    
    I am copying what you said below and based on this, I assume that you
    give all you have to the treasury of your church, because you said it
    proves your point.  The woman did not use the money for God through
    several different ways but left the money at the local treasury. 
    Great! -- Because you must want to see your local congregation see
    people's lives change and be a minister in your community, and worship
    God, and grow in His likeness.
    
    
    >>    In the NT, giving is commended, the woman who put the two coins ALL she
    >>    had in,  Then are you saying that you will give ALL you have?
    
    >    Actually, this proves my point more than it does yours.  Jesus
    >    commended this woman and condemned the Pharisees tithing practices.
    >    She gave what she had out of the joy of her heart for what God's grace
    >    did in her life.  Fits what Paul wrote in I Corinthians like a
    >    proverbial glove.

.54 Mike Heiser

>    Matthew 23:23
>    Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of
>    mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
>    matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to
>    have done, and not to leave the other undone.
    

An excellent quote from Jesus.  Please note what Jesus says: "these
ought ye to have done," (tithe) and not leave the other undone.

But these notes are repeating themselves.

MM

    re.55 Mike Heiser


>Tithing in the NT is neither condemned or commended, but we  are called
>to give according to what we have.
>...but tithing as we know it is unscriptural.

How do you reconcile these two statements in one paragraph?

    
    Maybe Mike means as a Christian doctrine tithing is not doctrinally
    correct based upon what the Scriptures say about giving.
    
    But maybe he doesn't mean that at all!
    
    jeff

Note 242.58    FRETZ::HEISER

>>    In the NT, giving is commended, the woman who put the two coins ALL she
>>    had in,  Then are you saying that you will give ALL you have?
>
>    Actually, this proves my point more than it does yours.  Jesus
>    commended this woman and condemned the Pharisees tithing practices.
>    She gave what she had out of the joy of her heart for what God's grace
>    did in her life.  Fits what Paul wrote in I Corinthians like a
>    proverbial glove.

Actually, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their inattentiveness to mercy and
justice ("weightier things") but told the Pharisees that while they *SHOULD*
attend to the requirements of the law, they should also not neglect the
weightier things.

I have no problem with a "giver" who gives beyond the 10% figure, but I have a
problem with someone who gives LESS then 10%.  Why?

When we move from OT to NT, from action to attitude, nothing is ever
diminished.  Jesus did not come to abolish the law; He came to fulfill it.
Therefore, we move from the practice of tithing to the Principle of tithing.

What is the principle of tithing?   Think on it.

Mark

    In accordance with I Corinthians 16:1-4, I give weekly, usually more
    than 10%, and because I want to, not because I have to.  I am not under
    the Law, I am under Grace.  I don't believe we are required to tithe
    under the Law as it is scripturally defined in the OT.  In essence we
    may agree on giving, but I don't feel "tithe" is the proper term for
    it.  As previously stated, Abraham gave out of grace before the Law was
    given.  I don't believe the context or theme of the widow's offering is 
    saying we have to give all we have.  It is addressing the attitude of 
    giving.
    
    Mark 12:41-44 (NAS):
    
    "And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the
    multitude were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people
    were putting in large sums.  And a poor widow came and put in 2 small
    copper coins, which amount to a cent.  And calling His disciples to
    Him, He said to them, 'Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more
    than all the contributors to the treasury; for they all put in out of
    their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all
    she had to live on.'"

>Actually, Jesus condemned the Pharisees for their inattentiveness to mercy and
>justice ("weightier things") but told the Pharisees that while they *SHOULD*
>attend to the requirements of the law, they should also not neglect the
>weightier things.
    
    See I always saw that passage as Jesus commending the Pharisees for
    their diligence because they even tithed on their plants.  However, in
    the next sentence he condemns them, as you say, for ignoring the
    "weightier things."

�>Tithing in the NT is neither condemned or commended, but we  are called
�>to give according to what we have.
�>...but tithing as we know it is unscriptural.
�
�How do you reconcile these two statements in one paragraph?
    
    Maybe it was a poor choice of words, but the OT tithe consists of 7
    different tithes (previously listed) amounting to 30+% of your income.  I 
    don't believe the Bible says anything about a strict 10% tithe, no more, 
    no less, as it is practiced in many of today's churches.

    Mr. Wright,
    
>    My giving slightly more than 10% does NOT bring joy to my heart. 
>    Actually it brings sadness because I want to do more for His glory and
>    work.  God does not need my money to do His work, what He wants is my
>    obedience.  Tithing has nothing to do with the money but worlds to do
>    with being obedient.  
    
    I agree with this, a noble desire.
    
>    You didn't answer my question.  If the woman proves your point, then I
>    assume you give all you have.  Correct assumption?  It has been my
    
    I don't believe that's the message Jesus was trying to get across. 
    I just explained a few replies back what I thought He was trying to
    teach us.
    
>    experience, most of the people who have a problem with tithing and
>    claiming ( to the point of all they bring up is the Phariseeism) it no
>    longer is relevant are ones who have a problem with obedience to God
>    and financially will NOT give to the church.  If His church is so
    
    That's doesn't apply here.  Thus the dangers of generalizing.
    
>    important to them, that they are called by His name (Christian) why is
>    it so hard to give the 10%.  I have found for my life the 10% is His
>    and should go to my local body for distribution.   
    
    There's another passage in I Timothy 5:17-18 that addresses support of
    the church.  Actually, all money (100%) is God's and He has called us 
    to be wise stewards of His money.  As needs arise, we should be wise
    enough to pray for God's will and where/how much we should give.  Those
    blessed with the Gift of Giving (Romans 12:6-8) must realize this more
    than anyone.  God blesses those with that gift of the Holy Spirit
    because they are in tune with God's will and the needs of the church. 
    But that's another rathole...

    re .67
    
    I think we agree (??>>?>?), I understand what you are saying exactly. 
    I perceive that you are believing that the tithe was according to
    Jewish (before) tradition and thus we have a cultural gap.  I
    acknowledge the truths you use and agree with what you have said.  My
    point of the tithe, (fear of being accused of taking out of context) is
    today we still have a storehouse of God's that needs to be kept up.
    So......I have a wonderous opportunity to be a part of God's work by
    GIVING.  (As you have shown).  Hence, I don't believe it is a cultural
    gap interpretation problem.  
    
    In any event as you have stated, 100% is God's.  Problem is most of us
    (including myself) tend to treat the 10% only as God's. 
    
    You accuse me of generalizing in .67 on my statement earlier of saying
    many who have problems with tithing give very little.  Just to note...I
    did preceed this with "In my experience"  which is not generalizing but
    factual.  This may or may not be the case universally.
    
    I believe that you give what you give not out of giving but in
    obedience to giving as well as the blessings that are promised.  You
    sound as if you are blessed by your giving as well as seeing God's work
    done.
    
    I do not (although I may sound as if I do) condemn someone for not
    tithing.  If asked I would say, where you are and what you are giving
    is ok, but I would also recommend growth in giving.  Simply put just
    like every other area of our life we need to grow.... Consider your
    storehouse and give to it.  Many of the notes in the conference talk to
    how terrible the world is etc, if we (Christians) gave in the spirit
    that you seem to advocate, we could meet the needs of those around us
    and by meeting the needs share the message of Christ. 
    
    Summary..No problems with what you have stated.  But as MM put it a few
    back .... giving in the NT does not obsolete taking care of the
    storehouse or tithe which means tenth.  You may not agree, with that
    but if what you stated about your giving, you practice it (or so it
    appears to me).
    
    -Robert
    You

>    is like every other area of our life we need to grow.... Consider your
    
    Robert, I absolutely agree.  In fact, Paul says to give in proportion
    to your income in I Corinthians 16:1-4.
    
>    storehouse and give to it.  Many of the notes in the conference talk to
>    how terrible the world is etc, if we (Christians) gave in the spirit
>    that you seem to advocate, we could meet the needs of those around us
>    and by meeting the needs share the message of Christ. 
    
    You know I've seen this in action in the church I've been involved with
    the past 2 years.  We "pass the plate" only once per week in our church
    (Sunday AM - 10:30 service only).  Visitors are always encouraged NOT
    to give from the pulpit at that time.  We've held many crusades in the
    local arenas (15,000+ venues).  We were the main sponsoring church
    behind the Luis Palauu and Chuck Smith crusades here last year.  As a
    sponsor, we made it clear that no offering was to be taken (based on
    the premise that the Gospel should be free).  Given all this
    background, our church is in very solid financial shape.  God always
    provides.  It appears believers are more moved by God to give when not
    badgered.  They see the grace of God in action, and desire to be a
    contributing factor.
    
    It has am absolutely astounding effect on the unsaved.  My family
    members and friends who don't know the Lord personally, are absolutely
    shocked when no offering is taken.  It was the very first thing my
    father noticed and was floored by it!
    
    Mike

    
    Can anyone describe the context of the tithe in the OT?  Was it part of
    the Law for example?  If so, which part of the Law; God's commands or
    man's interpretations (traditions).  Or was giving not a part of the
    Law per se?
    
    jeff

    re .69 Mike
    
    Agreed, I would never expect, offering to be encouraged by someone who
    is not a member of that body.  I admire your pulpit for the courage to
    encourage visitors etc not to give as they have nothing to do with the
    storehouse.  Rather ... like your crusade you mention, the folks that
    are in the local body should offer the Gospel freely ( as in $$, the
    Gospel applied is not free - agreed?)  
    
    In our youth group at church, we also have activities that we try to
    get friends and non-christians to that are no cost to them but present
    the message of Christ.  We have retreats, programs, etc.  Many times it
    costs us financially but the benefit is well worth the bucks.  The past
    three years, the youth have raised the $$ for summer camp for everyone
    to go.  This camp is $94 per person and has enabled us to bring others
    without cost.  I hope that the non-Christians/non-members get a picture
    of the work that the youth did to raise the money so that they may
    attend also.  Some of the work is not always "cheerful"  but the giving
    of time and energy is "cheerful".
    
    -Robert

Everyone talks about tithing "money".  What about Time, Talents, Tithes and 
offerings?

Let me share a story with you that I heard several months ago.  It uses the  
American Indians as the example and no offense is intended.  I used 
feel bad about using the American Indians as the example until I found out 
that my 3rd great grandfather on my dad's side was a full blooded Cherokee.

AND NOW THE OTHER STORY:

Long ago when North American was being settled and going west.

There was a preacher who started a church in a little western town.  The town 
was not too far from some Indians.  The preacher had made several calls on 
this tribe and had converted several of them to Christianity.  Well, one day 
one of the tribe came to Sunday worship.  About the middle of the service the 
preacher decided it was time to pass the plate.  He was preaching quite 
emphatically for people to give.

The usher finally came to the Indian and held the plate before him and the 
preacher began saying to the Indian, dig deep brother, give everything that
you have to the Lord.  The Indian began searching in his belongings but found 
no money, only beautiful beads, hides and a few other items, but no money.

The preacher said again very adamantly, brother dig deep, give all that you
have to the Lord.  Well this went on for a few more minutes.  The Indian 
(newly converted Christian) was getting very frustrated.

While the preacher was saying to him again to give all that he had to the
Lord, with both hands the Indian grabbed the offering plate from the usher.

He took the plate, walked into the center of the isle, faced the preacher, 
placed the plate on the floor and stood in it.  


THE END (strong message huh?)


Once I worked with a brother in Christ who was attending a church who sent
him a bill at the end of the year for what they thought was 10% of his annual 
earnings.  He even got a second and third delinquency notice.

After much dialogue between him and the church, he left the church.  That was 
about 18 years ago.  I haven't spoken to him for a while but he wasn't going 
to church when I last saw him.  He and his family worshiped at home and did 
work in the community as well as helping people when they could.

I know several people who are not able to tithe because of income levels.
But they do "give till it feels good to them" not till it hurts.  They are 
also very active within their churches.

Too many times people place emphasis on the material, when the Lord wants and 
deserves so much more.  What about our time, our love, our talents, 
spiritual gifts, our lives.

Please forgive me for soapbox approach.  I didn't mean to preach at you.

Yours in Christ Jesus,

Julian

Some sporadic comments:

 o Mike talks about the Jewish tithe accumulating to about 30%.
 o Julian asks about tithing other than money.
 o The word tithe means tenth.  "Bring your tithes (tenths) into the
   storehouse..." A tenth of this, a tenth of that, maybe up to
   30 percent when you add in time, talents, love, and tithes;
   maybe even more.

These can go hand in hand.

I asked a while back about the PRINCIPLE of the tithe.  Jeff asked about
its origins.  

When we move from OT to NT we NEVER DIMINISH, but ALWAYS INCREASE 
responsibility.  How so?  Jesus said that it is not only if you murder
your brother, but if you hate them in your heart that you are guilty 
of murder; that if you lust in your heart (attitude) that you are
guilty of adultery.  The principle of hatred supersedes the action of
hatred.

So too with the positive things.  Action is replaced with attitude.
Jesus hinges all the law and the prophets on TWO commandments.
These two commandments DO NOT give a list of things to do, but in
actuality require everything!

So we come to the tithe.  In the OT it was a tithe of this, a tithe of
that.  God says in Malachi that He will pour blessings upon those who
trust in Him with their tenths.  (Not preaching health and wealth, here, folks;
just laying a foundation.)  The tithes represented dependence on God for their
supply, their needs, and their bounty.

Coming into the New Testament, what is the principle of the tithe?  What
lesson has the action of the law dictated for the attitude of the law?
Less?  Never!  More? Always!

Learning the principle of the tithe is a good thing for Christians to do
and as they begin to experience its blessings, they will take it to heart
in their attitude and it will no longer be the act of measuring out 10%
to the least decimal place, but an act of love and reliance upon God
exceeding the letter of the law into the law of love.

Mark

      <<< Note 242.73 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>
>Learning the principle of the tithe is a good thing for Christians to do
>and as they begin to experience its blessings, they will take it to heart
>in their attitude and it will no longer be the act of measuring out 10%
>to the least decimal place, but an act of love and reliance upon God
>exceeding the letter of the law into the law of love.

Mark, I like your entire response.  However, this really felt good.

Julian

    Re: -1

    
    >God says in Malachi that He will pour blessings upon those who
    >trust in Him with their tenths.  (Not preaching health and wealth,
    >here, folks;just laying a foundation.) 
    
    
     Just a nit, I know you were not trying to convey this, (in fact you
    summed it up quite nicely) but we sometimes think of God's Blessings in
    the material sense, when in fact God chooses to bless us through other
    means.
    
    
     Yak

    Re: Mike "sounds like grace giving"
    
    "A rose by any other name will still smell as sweet."  - William
    Shakespeare.
    
    If it sounds like grace giving, then those who give by grace should not
    balk at the term "tithe" and those who tithe "on the principle" (pun
    intended, of course) should not balk at the grace givers.  To
    strain a gnat (exacting 10%) or to make excuse to give less (because
    "God would not want my children to go without milk [when they spend
    dough on other things that are questionably unnecessary])  are both not
    within the spirit of the law.
    
    Teaching tithing as 10 percent of the income is not unscriptural, as
    the principle demonstrates, and as Jesus himself said ("these ought ye
    do").  Growing into grace giving is not unlike growing into any other
    more mature area.  We can teach a new driver to drive in a restricted
    parking lot, teaching the princples within the boundaries set by the
    law.  When the driver learns the principles, he is free to drive
    wherever the road may take him.  The training was not essential but 
    lends itself to making smooth transitions.  The balance (there's that
    word) is between the legalism and the liberty.
    
    The tithe that the pharisees ought to continue is a good thing and
    Jesus said so by telling them that they should continue it.  That it
    had become a legalistic reason to cheat the family (a different
    reference to corban), demonstrated that they had neglected the
    weightier things.  When liberty takes over, and the weightier things
    are taken care of, so also are the things we "ought to do."  To some,
    who have taken the step to give ten percent, it's a major step.  To
    those who give beyond the 10, they look back to when they gave less and
    wonder why they ever thought it was such a big step.  Like any process
    of growth, instruction, baselines, structure, and examples in history
    are good teachers of principles.  
    
    This is why I ask to see what the principle of the tithe is, for the
    principle does not abolish the tithe, but fulfills it!  And the letter
    of the tithe is part of the principle of the tithe, and a beginning
    point to giving out of what we have; and we, like the poor widow (for
    we are all poor in God's eyes) can give our all to the treasury of
    heaven.  Do not seek to tear down those who preach the tithe, for it is
    the beginning to "grace giving" and the teacher of the principle.
    
    Mark

Have appreciated the experiences people have entered in this
note w.r.t. tithing.

Okay, here's a senario? Supposing Jim is up to his head in debt.
Due to the unforseen circumstances which were out of his control
he is now in a position where his (bare nessesity, non luxurious)
outgoings are greater than his incomings. Should he be tithing/giving?

Now if he is tithing in the above circumstances he is surely having
faith that God is going to see him through and pull him out (could
be interpretered as puting God to the test).
Also, is it not irresponsible to give money to God when
it's not even your money but the banks that you are giving to God?
Does God ask us to give him money even though it isn't ours ?
    
Excuse my spelling,
Erich
    

>Does God ask us to give him money even though it isn't ours ?

No.  We cannot give what is not ours.

Let's get an overview of this, though.  A person enters a contract
with the bank and promises to pay them money for the money they loan.
Now, the person owes the bank money.  

If the person "owed" God money before he entered the contract, what does this
say about the priorities he has placed in his life?  In the strict context,
he owes both God and the bank money, now, but the sum of both cannot be 
supported by the person.

We reason that God owns the cattle on a thousand hills and is forgiving
therefore I will postpone payment to Him and the bank.  The same reason 
might be given to the bank: "The bank owns several billion is assests,"
but they are not very forgiving.

In such a case, I would consider paying the bank what I owed without
inceasing my debt.  Further, I would keep a record of that which I
"owe" God (note I am not using the term tithe, here), as the Lord lays
it on my heart.  When the bank was paid off, I would also begin to pay
off my debt to God.  

By the way, the OT says that when you borrow from the treasury of God 
you are to return it with an extra fifth (20%).

But, add to all this the freedom from the law into the attitude of the law
and thatGod does forgive debt, and you have a mixture that says, what 
actually happens depends on what He tells you to do.

Mark

    Re: .78
    
    There are many matters involving our individual lives where the
    Scriptures do not give absolute direction.  I believe this is because
    in the new covenant, we are no longer under law, living according to a
    list of do's and don'ts.  We have been set free to live according to
    the will of God.  In the matter of individual finances (and
    giving/tithing), I believe that the vital thing is for each individual
    to find out what the will of God *for them* is in their situations.
    "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give". 
    It is their responsibility to seek the Lord for their direction.  It is
    our responsibility to show others how the Scriptures might guide them
    in their decision, and perhaps to help them if we feel their decision
    might be contrary to Scriptural principles.
    
    Thus, in the hypothetical case you give, I believe it is quite possible
    that the Lord might direct the individual to clear himself of his
    unwise debts.  Or perhaps the Lord would burden the individual to
    continue giving, but in a reduced way until the debts are cleared.  Or,
    perhaps the Lord would want the individual to be giving a full "tithe",
    in faith of His provision.  You (or I) should not be the ones making
    this choice for the individual.  It's between them and the Lord.
    
    Mark L.

 I'm sure its coincidental that the name "Jim" was used in this example,
but this is a predicament I find myself in right now.  In an earlier
reply I stated how I had made a committment to God for a certain amount
until I got things straightened out.  It lasted for several weeks, until
I managed to allow things to get out of control.

I went through a stuggling time over the last week or 2 during which the
Lord got ahold of me and made it clear that I need to change some things..
So, I sat down, worked out a budget to get my financial affairs straight.
For the last 2 weeks I have lived pretty cheap, while getting my bills
on track. I've stopped all long distance phone calls, stopped all unnecessary
expenses, stopped most eating out (which should be eliminated altogether)
and made a few other cuts...and prayed.  If all goes the way I think it will
I'll have all my bills on schedule, paid on time and will be able to resume
my committment to the Lord, and support a few folks that need it.  In fact
if I can knock off nickle and dime spending here and there I may be able to
do all this and double payments on bills.


It can be done...I'd commit it to prayer and make the effort to get the bills
cleaned up ASAP and take a real look at where your money goes.




Jim

Jim, 
  You are an encouragement and example of setting priorities straight.
God bless you.

Mark

>But, add to all this the freedom from the law into the attitude of the law
>and thatGod does forgive debt, and you have a mixture that says, what 
>actually happens depends on what He tells you to do.
    
    Amen!  

    
    Not to stray from the topic, but this is an area that the Church has
    sorely forgotten.  The Church should be cognizant of the difficulties
    of it's members and make an effort to 1. financially help the
    individual and 2. counsel to help gain control of the financial
    situation.
    
     There seems to be such an emphasis on missionaries,building funds and
    the like, when we should be focusing on the support of the local body
    first.\
    
    
    Dan

 Thank you, Mark.





 Jim

    >Jim,
    >You are an encouragement and example of setting priorities straight.
    >God bless you.
    
    This bore repeating.  
    
    Nancy

>     There seems to be such an emphasis on missionaries,building funds and
    
    ...and preachers with Armani suits, Rolex watches, and Mercedes asking
    for more.

RE: <<< Note 242.78 by AYOV11::EWHITE >>>

Erich,
    
You managed to describe rather well the position I have been in since late 
1990.  The replies have been good and to the point; the person must work
this out thoroughly between themselves and God.  Anything else is following
a rule for the rule's sake.  What I wish to add is that I, like some others,
actually began doing better with tithing.  I can't point to any single
thing that happened or came my way, but it's a fact.  I also wouldn't tell
another that their experience would be the same, and it shouldn't be the
reason for tithing or not in any case.  I only offer it, as many others
have, to point out that we have to be very leary of our ability to declare
that we shouldn't in a given case.

Let me add that anyone in this position should take an extremely hard look
at "through no fault of their own", preferably with help from a Christian
counselor.  Causes can extend far beyond money management itself.  Being in
such a position is not likely to have been caused by God's will for the
person, or as a result of completely following his will.  Anyone inclined to
take offense, see sentence 1 of paragraph 1 above.

Lew

    Thanks all for answering my questions in .78, especially Jim and Lew
    who have testified to their experiences.
    
    |Note 242.84                          Tithing
    |DECLNE::YACKEL "and if not..."
    | There seems to be such an emphasis on missionaries,building funds and
    | the like, when we should be focusing on the support of the local body
    | first.
    
    Dan,
    How would define your meaning of "support" ? Do you mean the church
    should bring all members up to the same standard of living, or
    become a kind of "safety net" or "insurance company" when say for
    example a member of the fellowship goes bankrupt?
    
    Sorry for asking all the questions, it's maybe cos I don't really
    know the answers.
    Erich

    I've been looking around a little and was sorry I had missed the
    discussion on tithing.  Stewardship is an area I have learned to
    care very much about because of the faithfulness of my parents
    to God and His church over the last 24 years.  In want and in
    plenty I saw my parents give tithes and offerings (gifts above
    tithes).  There example has laid a strong foundation for me and
    I have been richly blessed because of it.  I firmly believe that
    you can never out give God.
    
    My current church is different than any other church I have ever
    been in.  When they set up there budget they actually have the
    stewardship committee pray for God to show them the needs He wants
    us to meet, then they figure out how much money it will take to
    meet those needs and then it's presented to the membership to
    vote on.  While there is some discussion around clarification,
    I have not seen any "heated discussion" and the budget passes
    easily.  The budget is over $40K-60K higher than the last year's
    budget and people don't even flinch!  This last year we didn't
    meet budget but we did meet the needs that God had laid on our
    leadership's hearts.  In my old churches people would worry about
    raising the budget because how would they ever meet it, they were
    being selfish and also showing little faith in a God who is capable
    of providing.  God is in control.  How often we forget that!
    
    A quick note on the 10% tithe.  This is an O.T. command.  I believe
    in the N.T. that God freed us to give liberally of ourselves.  As
    others said...10% is a starting place but with faith God can free
    you to trust in Him to provide and for you to give more.  I like to
    look at strong examples of tithing to see what God is doing in
    there lives.  It's amazing and it encourages us to give more of what
    God has entrusted to our care.  Invest those talents people, don't
    bury them!  That goes for your money as well as the other abilities
    God has blessed you with.  OK...I'm stepping down off my soapbox now.
    I just got excited there for a second.  :-)
    
    Jill

I'll take more bars of soap from your box, Jill.  Thanks and God bless.

    Jill,
    
    Thanks for your perspective.  I have a difficult time believing that
    God freed us from the "tithe" as being a "tenth" for believers today.
    Perhaps because it's what I've been taught all my life...and because
    I've seen it work well with the financial running of churches.
    
    I don't know ... but I just can't let it go.

>    I don't know ... but I just can't let it go.

I don't think you have to.  10% is the place to START.
OT to NT is "action to attitude" and everything gets supercharged, not
discounted.

    
    Don't get me wrong Nancy.  I don't believe God freed us FROM giving
    a 10% tithe.  I believed he freed us to give BEYOND the 10%.  A
    friend's giving encouraged me as he was giving upwards of 30% of
    his gross earnings to God.  He gave a tithe to church plus supported
    many missions.  It was inspiring.  In the past years I've made it
    a yearly goal to give beyond a tithe and ends have always met.  
    Please be encouraged out there if giving a tithe seems scary.  God
    will bless you (although it may not be monetarily).  You have His 
    guarantee on that!
    
    Our singles group does monthly fund raisers to earn money to go to
    the Southern Baptist Convention Singles retreat on Labor Day.  We've
    gotten in the discipline of giving a 10% to general fund as a tithe 
    and an additional 10% offering to the benevolence fund.  Often we've 
    even giving a 100% of our monthly fundraising money directly to 
    someone in need or a visiting evangelist.  God has blessed this group 
    greatly.  We need to be setting these kind of examples in our church
    groups so that people coming to those groups learn what giving is
    all about.  I don't believe tithing is just something you tell 
    someone to do, you need to show it to them too.
    
    Jill 

    	Hey, don't forget that not only is your voluntary offering
    	pushing you over the 10% tithe watermark, but your government-
    	sponsored giving (aka taxes to support social programs) is
    	pushing you even further!
    
    	:^)

    
    I don't count my "government-sponsored" giving.  It's not given 
    with a cheerful heart.  I kind of see that as giving unto Caesar 
    what is Caesars.  I don't think Caesar uses that money all that 
    wisely either, so I need to help with the needs God lays on my heart.  
    
    Jill

    	I wasn't serious, of course.
    
    	I said it with a smiley.
    
    	:^)

    
    RE: -1
    
    Don't worry...I didn't take your comment seriously.  But I felt
    like making a statement based on my previous readings in this
    string.  Sorry I should have made that more clear.
    
    Jill

    
    UMMMMMM...

    
    SNARF!
    

You're gettin' the hang of this right quick.

:-)

Paul

 She'll be snarfing with the best of us real quick like..




 Jim

WILL be?

I think it is generally recognised that tithing doesn't only apply to 
finance - eg in Matthew 23:23 :

 "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint
  and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law,
  judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave
  the other undone."

Time is a common one.  The 'one day in seven' (not sidetracking on that!) 
etc is incomplete, because during our day set aside, we also eat, sleep,
and talk about everyday matters.  The common application seems that every
moment of our time is involved with the LORD, just as _every_ thought is
taken captive to Him - not just one in ten.  So, even our most mundane 
activities are done for His glory, in that we do them as people, created in 
His image, fulfilling the things that people are designed to do.  We do all 
things with Him reigning in our hearts, in contrast to those who do 
everything explicitly for their 'own' good, and hence their own glory.  
This doesn't preclude us from committing specific moneys or activities to 
the support of the church, or the furtherance of a specific gospel or 
kingdom project, but it does emphasise that *all* we do is for His glory,
and when we forget that, we are the losers.  It also emphasises why *our*
righteousness is something offensive in His sight (Isaiah 64:6), because it
glorifies us, who are not worthy of glory; it steals what is His alone. 

But just *how* do you tithe


					a snarf? 

								Andrew

    
    Excellent point Andrew.  Tithing is only a part of stewardship.
    
    We could claim a snarf for God I guess, but do you think He 
    really wants it.  ;^)
    
    Jill

� We could claim a snarf for God I guess, but do you think He really wants it

It's a part of His creation .... I guess if we're possessive about it, and
take it for 'my' honour, and crow about it, it goes back to Isaiah 64:6,
but if we're humble, realising that any good thing is a gift from Him, we
can enjoy sharing it with Him ... or Him sharing it with us .... ;-) 

								Andrew 

    	Perhaps we should give a tenth of the snarfs to God.