Conference yukon::christian_v7

Re: .0  (Jim)

>    What gives anyone the right to judge others? Who among us
>    is so wise that they can understand what and why others
>    believe as they do and judge them wrong for believing so?
    
Suppose I believe that I have the right to judge others?  Are you so wise that
you can understand what and why I believe as I do and judge me wrong for
believing so? 

Admonishing, advising, pointing out wrong is not judging.

/john

Jim, I very much agree that sometimes some people judge others when they should
not.  However your question as posed is very absolute, suggesting that we can 
*never* judge anything that anyone does.

Taking an extreme for a moment, do you judge that Hitler was wrong?  If you
maintain consistency in the "we can't ever judge" position, you'd have to say
that we can't judge him because we can't understand what and why he believed as
he did.  We can't say he was wrong, just that we disagreed with him, and perhaps
not even that.

If you *DO* judge that he was wrong, then you agree that we have the right to
judge others, you just disagree about when we can exercise that right.  In that
case, your "What gives anyone the right to judge others?" question is far too
stringent.

This subject has been discussed a lot in the past, but before people give you
long replies about judging, I'd like to ask you to flesh out your question a bit
beyond a one-liner by answering a couple of other questions:

Do you judge that Hitler was wrong?

If so, what right are you claiming by which you have the authority to judge him,
and in what situations is that right applicable?  Specifically, what situations 
are you referring to in the base note where you perceive people to be judging 
where they should not be, and why is the right by which we can judge Hitler to
be wrong not applicable to those situations?

If not, could you explain that, and explain how you would deal with the 
implications of welcoming Hitler into your church - remember, you can't judge
that anything he says or does is wrong, you must accept him into full fellowship
without judging him.

Paul

I think the key to determining the righteousness of any judgement is the
MOTIVE behind the judgement.
i.e. WHY did you make that judgement rather than what is your authority
of judgement.
Whether you take the bible or your own personal values as your authourity 
of judgement is irrelevent. 
Whether you are judging someone for employment, appraisal, church membership,
marriage, there must be a POSITIVE reason for that judgement.
When I judge whether Hitler (or Joe Smith) was good or bad I need to ask 
why I am judging him. Is it to build up my self esteem by putting others 
down or is it for positive reasons such as developing my own belief system
or wondering if I should hire him ? 

The reason why I say that you cannot BASE your reason for judgement on any 
authourity is because WE WILL NEVER understand what is right or wrong until
we reach our eternal destination. Yes, you need to base the verdict of your
judgement on a source of laws or rules but not the REASON for your judgement.

There are areas like church membership where judgements have to be made.
Yes my church would welcome Hitler into the church but could not let him
become a member. In this case the MOTIVATION behind the judgement is
positive, as there are many practical and scriptural resons why Hitler
could not become a member of my church.

Erich
    

    The judge not phrase is often used by non-christians *at* Christians to
    "put them in their place" so that they will "practice what they preach"
    admonishment.
    
    Paul, what you wrote is dead on track with judging.  However, I'd like
    to clarify judging doesn't always mean execution or condemnation.
    
    Most non-christians believe that Christians are condemning them when
    they choose to reject Christ.  It's an understandable emotional
    reaction, after all, they've been told it's Christ or eternal
    damnation.  And as long as people reject Christ, there will be this
    dilemma.
    
    I've learned this past year, that when someone rejects my faith or
    Christ, it is their *God-given right* of free will to do so.  I can
    minimize the impact of that emotional reaction by not crossing their
    boundaries any further.  When someone says no, respect their rights and
    continue to pray that God will use someone else to reach them.
    
    Nancy

    Always good to read the replies in this notesfile.
    
    
    For all the people that thought Hitler was wrong there was/is
    still a lot that believe he ws right. If Germany had won
    WW2 wouldn't Hitler's point of view have been the RIGHT one?  Yes
    in the society that he would have formed. Morally would the churches
    in that society follow him? Those that didn't would not be
    allowed to exist so you would have a different morality.
    Rules/morality change to fit the power structures and the times
    as does the interpertation of the law. Today we do not stone people
    for commiting adultery. Instead, if we are smart, we welcome them
    back into our families and try to help them carry on. 
    
    Just because something is right in our society does not mean
    its right in other societies. We might judge others wrong 
    because they differ from us but who are we to judge them?
    
    Perhaps acceptance is a better path?
    

Re: .6  (Jim)
    
As long as there is no absolute authority to determine right vs. wrong, we will
argue endlessly. 

When God says something or someone is evil, it is He who has passed judgment,
and that judgment is not open to question.  "Judge not lest ye be judged" does
not apply to God, because no one has the right to pass judgment on God.

In the most straightforward cases, we say that some action or person is 
immoral and evil because God said so, and we are just reiterating a judgment
that God has made.  Hence it is not us passing judgment, but God.  

For example, God says that having sexual relations with animals is detestable.
If you have sexual relations with animals, then I can say that you are doing
something detestable, and it is not I who passes judgment on you, but God.

In the less straightforward cases, I can pass judgment on you if I am in a
God-given position of authority to do so, and don't contradict God's higher
authority in the process.

For example, if I am police officer, I can pull you over for a moving violation
and either give you a ticket or let you go because of what I judge to be some
extenuating circumstance.

I'm very surprised that you take as far a position as you do.  I assumed that 
you would agree that we must judge Hitler to be dead wrong, and that we could 
work from there as to how we can judge other people and other situations.  But 
it seems that you are advocating a completely flexible morality, which has no
grounding anywhere other than what the majority of people in a given group 
happen to think at any given time and place.  I think that you will find that 
most participants of this file utterly reject that concept of morality.

Who are we to judge?  We are followers of the God and Creator of the Universe,
who built the concepts of right and wrong into the very fabric of creation, and
who has very specific ideas about how things should be.  We are people who
know that good exists, and the evil exists, completely beyond any human
determination, and that God has told us parts of that eternal and immutable 
truth.  We are people who are called, to the best of our ability, to hold to 
that which God declares to be good.

Of course I recognize that we might be wrong.  But recognizing that absolute
truth exists while simultaneously recognizing our fallibility in knowing what 
that absolute truth is, is a far different cry from declaring that there is no
such thing as absolute truth.

Personally, from a purely logical standpoint, I think that any world view which 
is unable to say anything about Hitler beyond "I don't think that was nice, but 
maybe he was right" is remarkably bankrupt.  If we can't say that a man who 
herded millions of people into gas chambers for no better reason than he didn't 
particularly like them was wrong - wrong with no possibility allowed that he was
right - we might just as well toss the concepts of right and wrong as completely
useless and prepare for the mob rule we've just declared is the only way things
can be.

If your view leads you to believe that "acceptance" of the murder of millions of
innocent people is a "better path" than fighting against it with every resource
available as a hideous, unspeakable, undebatable evil, then you can have it.  I
want no part of an "acceptance" that would just as soon eat a plateful of
arsneic and strychnine as a plateful of healthy food.

Paul

    I was waiting for someone to say that GOD would be the
    final and absolute judge. IMHO our beliefs, no matter how important
    we think they are, are actually quite trivial in the grand
    scheme of things because actions speak louder then words.
    
    When Jesus asked for forgiveness for his accusers  he did so because
    he believed they were ignorant, not because they were wrong. That,
    to me, is a better way to live.
    
    

>    I was waiting for someone to say that GOD would be the
>    final and absolute judge. IMHO our beliefs, no matter how important
>    we think they are, are actually quite trivial in the grand
>    scheme of things because actions speak louder then words.
    
    Hmm, well from your .0, that didn't seem to be a problem.  At least as
    I read it.
    
>    When Jesus asked for forgiveness for his accusers  he did so because
>    he believed they were ignorant, not because they were wrong. That,
>    to me, is a better way to live.
    
    Is that the only way Jesus forgives in your opinion?
    
    Nancy

RE:           <<< Note 241.9 by GLDOA::KATZ "Follow your conscience" >>>

   . I was waiting for someone to say that GOD would be the
   . final and absolute judge. IMHO our beliefs, no matter how important
   . we think they are, are actually quite trivial in the grand
   . scheme of things because actions speak louder then words.
    

     perhaps you could expound on that a bit, with a definition of the
     "grand scheme of things"?



    Jim    

    >he did so because he believed they were ignorant,
    
    Wrong. He did so because He loves and is faithful even when they were
    wrong.
    
    That, to me, speaks volumes of the greatness of God's love towards us.

    Grace is free , but NOT cheap!  God judged us in righteousness and
    truth. Truth beyond our understanding. Why? Dan got it right, 'LOVE'.
    Not ignorance, but pure 'LOVE', love that we as "fallen" from grace
    can not fully comprehend.
    
     PDM

>    I was waiting for someone to say that GOD would be the
>    final and absolute judge. 

So this was a test?  I was going to say earlier, but I guess I will now, that
your original note struck me as quite judgemental. You sort of pop in and with
no context pose a question that very much implies that you are addressing it to 
people who are "judgemental," and are passing judgement on them that they 
shouldn't be that way.  I think that Garth's original response in .1 was right 
on.

Of course God will be the final and absolute judge.  If you believe in God at 
all, that's a given.  If you don't believe in God, then no one is a final and
absolute judge, and nothing is final or absolute.  So your question, as you
posed it and as it logically must be, is not "Who is the final judge," but 
"given that God is the final judge, to what extent are we fallible humans called
to judge while here on earth?"

Your position, as I take it, is that since God will be the absolute judge, we
shouldn't judge anything since we can't know anything for sure.

My position is that since God will be the absolute judge, we are called to
align ourselves with that which is good in God's eyes (and is thus absolutely
good) and distance ourselves from that which is evil in God's eyes (and is thus
absolutely evil).  I recognize that we might be mistaken, but we are far better 
off doing the best we can than sitting back and accepting everything "just in 
case."

I used to believe that Jesus's call for us to love everyone, including our
enemies, meant that we were to show complete tolerance for anything they might
believe and embrace anything they might claim is truth.  But even if you don't
believe the Bible is God's perfect word but just a historical account of Jesus's
life, a closer examination will show that it just ain't so.  Love is not the
same as tolerance.  In fact, in the account of thousands of years of the history
of the people God chose as His, "tolerance" of that which is outside his will is
the primary cause of the judgements that were brought upon them by God.  The
Israelites kept "tolerating" idol worship because that's what other people 
thought was right.  God didn't view that "tolerance" as a positive thing.  And
neither do I.

Paul

    re .14
    
    Actually I posted the note in .0 because I like to see the
    replies of the other noters. Many are very well thought out
    and I can learn from them. Forgive me if I sometimes play 
    the devils advocate but I have found it a very good way
    to learn. Have a great weekend everyone.
    
    		-Jim-

    Hi,
    
    I believe the key is to judge the ACT as good or bad, not the INTENTIONS
    of the person for committing the act. 
    
    j

    "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge
    others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be
    measured to you." (Matthew 7:1,2 NIV)
    
    Jesus makes it abundantly clear that we are not to judge. He emphasizes
    examining ourselves first, and he emphasizes the importance of a
    certain equality (for lack of a better word) - Loving your neighbor as 
    yourself; acknowledging the plank in your own eye instead of focusing
    on the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye; letting the one without 
    sin cast the first stone, doing unto others as you would have them do 
    unto you. Whatever measure we use to judge another, will be the same 
    measure used to judge us. That's a sobering thought.
    
    However, with reference to the world's view of the judgmentalism of
    Christians, two things. As Christians, we believe that Jesus, as He has 
    stated, is the Way, the Truth and the Life. And He has given us a command 
    to share that Good News. Out of obedience to our Lord, we must share our 
    faith. What we must not do is judge or condemn another for not accepting 
    it. We must present it to them, that's all. It is the work of the Holy 
    Spirit to convict. We must learn to respect free will as our Father in 
    Heaven respects it. It may grieve us, but it grieves Him more, and yet he 
    will not force anyone to accept Him. The second has do to with the 
    point made in .16, hating the sin but loving the sinner. We are called to 
    love our neighbor; this commandment is second only to loving God. In 
    loving our neighbor, which I read as all mankind, we will have occasion 
    to see individuals and groups engaged in self-destructive and 
    other-destructive behavior. The loving thing to do is to reach out to them 
    and/or those being harmed. It's a fact that there are harmful behaviors.  
    But again, we must not condemn that person. We must look to the cross and 
    see God's justice, and love that person as Christ loved us when he hung 
    there and died for us all.
    
    Rebecca  
    

People who are sinning will probably always see rebuke as judgment.
Yet Jesus tells us we must rebuke our brother if he sins.

Luke 17:3 (RSV): "Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him,
and if he repents, forgive him;"

Now the KJV does say "trespass against thee", but even if that is a more
correct translation of our Lord's original words, all sins are sins against
the entire Body of Christ.

We are, in this case, talking about fellow believers.  We don't seem to be
told here to rebuke pagans.

/john

	It is important to make our meanings clear when we use words like
"judge".  It is always wrong for one person to try to utterly condemn
another, to act as judge, jury, and executioner.  Two examples that come to
mind are the millions of ("legal") abortions, and the (illegal) instances
of lethal and injurious attacks on two abortionists (one in Florida, the
other recently in Kansas).  Jesus goes further, warning us not to speak,
act, or even allow ourselves to think in ways that harbor our own personal
hatred, contempt, or prejudice against another.

	However, it is certainly necessary to exercise good judgement; that
is, to wisely discern (under God's direction) the behaviors and attitudes of
ourselves, and of others.  This is what Jesus did, and is willing to do through
us today.  He knew what was in people's hearts before they even spoke.  He was
able to determine everyone's true needs in order to meet them.  He was able
to keep himself and his disciples out of danger from attackers when necessary.
He was willing to speak out against sin, even though it offended people,
simply because he cared enough to offer us his life in exchange for sin.

	Keep an open mind, but not so open that the cranial contents keep
spilling out.  Know what you believe, and why you believe it.  Maintain
your intellectual honesty and integrity.  Carefully uncover and examine all
relevant facts, and keep revising your conclusions to fit the objective
truth, as needed.  I honestly believe that a real Christian has the best
hope of achieving this ideal in Christ.  It does not come naturally to our
fallen human nature, and we are prone to put others down; to run away from
the hard truth about ourselves.

Re: .17 (Rebecca)

To add to what you said,

>    stated, is the Way, the Truth and the Life. And He has given us a command 
>    to share that Good News. Out of obedience to our Lord, we must share our 
>    faith. What we must not do is judge or condemn another for not accepting 
>    it. We must present it to them, that's all. It is the work of the Holy 

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save
the world through him.  Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever
does not believe stands condemned already..."  (John 3:17-18)
                 ______ _________ _______


As can be seen, we don't judge.  God has judged and condemned already, and we
are witnesses of that fact. 

    re .17
     
    Great answer.
    
     -Jim-

    We're called to judge righteously.  If you read the rest of that
    chapter, you'll see us called to discern among the people ('casting
    pearls before swine').  You can't determine swine without righteously
    judging.

    In my studies this past week I came across these verses and it reminded
    me of this topic...
    
    John 12:44  
    Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth
    not on me, but on him that sent me.
    45  And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
    46  I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me
        should not abide in darkness.
    47  And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not:
        for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
    48  He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that
        judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him 
        in the last day.
    49  For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he
        gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
    50  And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I
        speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

241.7 Garth Wiebe  "Appeal to authority"

Garth is correct.

In determining what is right and what is wrong, authority determines.
If Hitler had won, he would have won the right to define the right
and good (absent a higher power [authority] over him).  While we blanch 
at this idea, for we know Hitler was wrong in our hearts, even if he
won WWII, if there was no greater power to overrule the definition
of good and right, then the greatest available power will define
what is right and what is wrong.

We can look at this mathematically:

  X + 2 = Y

For any given X value, we can determine what Y is.

If Hitler was the greatest power (X) and (the constant "2") greater power
defines right and wrong, then (Y) Hitler defines what is good and right 
and those who stand in opposition to this are judged to be bad and wrong.
The judgment may (or may not) bring enforcement of the definition, usually
expressed by Hitlers SS or armies eliminating opposition until all that is
left is the definitions that agree with the greatest powers definition.

Having said that, if (X) is the God of the Bible, and (the constant "2")
greater power defines right and wrong, then God, being the greatest power
defines what is good and right.  

The Bible says that those who stand in opposition to the definition will
be dealt with at some time, and that everyone will ultimately know the
truth of right and wrong. "Every knee shall bow, every tongue shall confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord."  If God is Who He says He is, then there is
no greater power and all of our definitions of right and wrong must 
either measure up to His definitions or be responsible for our choices
of opposition.

See also Note 31.* about Morality and Authority.

Mark

    Hi there! Yesturday I shared some things, but lokking at this file, it
    somehow didn't add on. I still care to share, hope I remember the
    things I shared.      When I read this topic on judging, I starterd to
    think about some of the things that God was/is dealing with me on this
    as well as some of the things that my girlfriend and I were conversing
    about judging (dealing with things of our past/present). The world
    teaches us that we have to judge others, to compare. We get conditioned
    without even realizing that we do. Becomes part of our lifestyle. When
    self enters, or even when we get hurt by someone or angry, we tend to
    judge them and allow our emotions to take over. Sometimes even say
    things that we shouldn't (the tongue can bless or curse). Even effect
    our attitude.   When we become Christians, God shows us thru His Word (
    that's the Bible you know...) how we are to start Now with a new life-
    style.  '....You are a New creation in Christ. "Old" things are to pass
    away, "New" things are to come.'  There's a change, Tranformation that
    happens (a lifetime one). We are to check things out, even a person
    that somehow effects us. Not to judge him, but rather the spirit behind
    whatever the person is saying/doing.  The Word shares with us that we
    are to check out every spirit to see if it is of God or not (There's
    more than just the Spirit of God out there. But Praise God that His
    Spirit is mighter than all).  He shares with us thru the Word how to
    live a new lifestyle. No longer ours, but His (even though we do/say
    somethiing, it should be from the new things that we learn from Hin
    flowing out/thru us). He shares with us (I'm still learning to engraft
    scripture. So forgive me for not able to share the exact wording at
    this moment) about a parable that makes it easier to understand/relate.
    A peach tree is known by it's fruit. A peach tree will produce peaches
    (and a thorn bush will produce thorns).  There are verses that shares
    with us about qualities/charictoristics of what "Good" friuts are.
    There are also verses that goes into examples of 'bad' fruits. So we
    are not to judge a person (for that is Gods' postition), but the spirit
    of the person and by the fruits that he bears at that moment(s). 
    	An example of what my girlfriend and I have been talking about in
    regards to this, is like when we were talking about if we were married
    and we knew that a particular person was a drug addict, a thief or just
    came out of jail/prison, would we invite the person into our home ( my
    lady has 2 girls, 11 and 14)? Would we even be assosiating with them.
    This can also include Christians who are going thru seperation/divorce,
    or a single Christian lady/girl who is pregnat. For we Christians tend
    to put these people into catagories/judging.  One thing that Kathy and
    I realize is that even if a person is having bad fruits at that
    particular point in time, God can make a change, can transplant good
    fruits. 
    				                ~Richard~     
    
    
     

We judge at times because God commands us to judge.
(Romans 13, God grants authority to governments, for
example, which includes not only the right but the
*responsibility* to judge between right and wrong.)

We do not judge at times because God commands us not to
judge. (Matthew 7)

We judge at other times in sin.

I typically distinguish between judgment and discernment.
Judgment implies the application of a penalty whereas
discernment does not.  We are to be discerning as
individuals, but judges only in particular roles
(government, church or family authority for example).

Discernment, however, must not be abused either.  It is
perfectly correct to try and discern in all things whether
it is right/wrong.  However, it is not the responsibility
of the individual to rebuke that which is wrong - that is
the responsibility of God-given authority (typically the
church).  Of course, God has recorded his rebukes in the
Bible against much of which is wrong and it can be quite
appropriate to refer to those when confronting a similar
situation today.

Collis