Conference yukon::christian_v7

 What is it and is there a scriptural basis for it?







 Jim

    Evidently you make positive affirmations and write them down.  You read
    them then close the eyes and picture yourself already skinny (or what
    ever) and looking at yourself in the mirror.  Affirmations should be in
    the present tense, positive, and personal to you.  You evidently need
    to see yourself a part of the picture when you visualize, not looking
    at yourself. (I am a valued person- I like myself--and then you
    visualize that you are smiling at yourself in the mirror)
    
    Thats about all I know.
    
    
    Donna

 Well, I'm no expert, but I don't think it sounds like a good thing 
for Christians to be messing with..sounds kinda "new agey" to me.
I don't know of any scriptural basis for such a thing.





Jim

    My view: painting pictures to help you see or understand something is
    in my opinion fine. However, there's a fine line between that type of
    activity and using visualization to control, manipulate, or make happen
    a situation you want. Here's an example..you want to loose weight.
    
    OK Visualisation: You see yourself as thiner, wearing a certain
    outfit. It's a goal for you and a means to try to achieve. You can also
    use it to help you see yourself in tough situations and help you develop
    gameplans, ways of coping. 
    
    Wrong Way: You believe by thinking yourself as thin you will be able to
    stop yourself from eating, stop others from offering you food, etc. In
    other words you see the visualization as having an impact on the
    "spirit" of a person to make them change their actions. To me that's
    pure and utter "witchcraft".
    
    

    So, your saying that a "right" way would be to visualize a goal--seeing
    myself thin, etc.
    
    And the wrong way would be what?  Trying to manipulate someone into
    doing something you want them to do?  I'm a bit fuzzy on what you would
    consider the wrong way.  If I visualize my friend as being a nicer
    person, would that be considered bad?
    
    
    dh

 I would think it would definitely be wrong to visualize someone being
 thin, whereby one expected that person to become  thin as a result of
 that visualization.


 I like to think about myself being a bit thinner, or a better Bible scholar
 or with a beard again so I don't have to shave..but expecting that to happen
 as a result of my thinking about it, or repeating affirmations, etc..I can't
 see that as being Christian and I believe it is a tenat of the new age 
 movement.





Jim

    Hi Donna,
    
    This is a *GREAT* question and one in which I will take time write
    about later using scripture to back up the position I take on this type
    of thing... However, am backed to the wall with Digital Business
    [everybody say a hardy AMEN!] :-) right now.
    
    Thanks for starting this,
    Nancy

    If you've ever tended a garden, or attempted to make something, you
    begin by visualizing or imaging the end result. If you couldn't imagine
    the plant that was going to grow, it's likely you'd never plant the
    seed. I can see my need to lose weight and tone up, but I can also see
    in my mind my goal of my thinner, healthier self, if I couldn't, I'd 
    probably not bother. Given that, it would seem that "visualization" is a 
    natural occurence, a gift of God that enables us to take the first step 
    towards a goal. I think it occurs naturally when we set a goal. Now, my 
    understanding of the New Age movement is extremely limited, but, it seems 
    to me that Visualization (with a capital "V") takes this natural gift and 
    sets it apart and magnifies it in importance.  It's used to affirm an 
    assertion that man is whole in and of himself, and can achieve by the use 
    of his mind, anything he wants - a formula for "success" in life. 
    And a glorification of man. Therein lies the danger of Visualization 
    (with a capital "V"). That a man might think more highly of himself than 
    he ought, to think himself self-sufficient. As Christians, we know that we 
    are nothing apart from Christ, that we are insufficient unto ourselves. 
    Our lives are to be led for the glory of God. God has created a masterful 
    work in man, and has given man what he needs to serve and to live a 
    productive life in Christ. I believe you'll visualize naturally, God will 
    aide you and guide you toward achieving those goals that are in His will 
    for you.  He helps us - He's immensely practical. I guess what I'm saying 
    is, beware of Visualization (with a capital V) and aware of the difference 
    between that Visualization and the tool of visualization or imagination
    that God has provided for our practical use and help.
    
    Hope this makes sense....
    
    Rebecca

    Rebecca,
    
    This hits the nail on the head!  I couldn't agree with you more.  
    
    I will still keep my promise and add to what Rebecca has written and 
    also draw a parallel between Visualization, Ron Hubbard and the Bible.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, I look forware to "hearing" what you have to say on the subject,
    and .8---A big thank you.  That does make sense to me.  
    
    At this point, I've decided against doing it.  Mainly because in doing
    it you are trying to control circumstances around you.  (ie I will win
    the lottery, the man on the corner will wink at me) I exaggerated, but
    it does seem to reek of the new age stuff my mother -in-law is into. 
    That they are gods within themselves, and can create their own
    circumstances.  We got on the topic of adultry the other day--I forget
    who we were talking about--and she started saying things like "who's to
    say whats right or wrong, or if anything is wrong.  etc etc"  The way
    some people I've come in contact with spit in the face of God (pardon
    my expression) makes me afraid for them and sad too.  They don't even
    realize what theyr'e doing.
    
    
    
    Donna

	Thanks, Rebecca!

	Donna, if your talking about the affirmation and visualization
	techiniques that were discussed recently in another conference,
	I'd say be wary.  They really tend toward Visualization with
	a capital "V".

	The suggestion was made to use affirmations and visualization to
	get you motivated to do something.

	My take is this.  If you have something about you that you 
	want or need to change, take it to God.  Present it before,
	ask Him to guide you, to light your path, to change your heart
	(if that's the need).  No matter what techniques you use to
	get you motivated to make the change, if you try to do it without
	God, failure is imminent.
	

	FWIW, I have a hard time "visualizing" anything anyway.  I never
	was much of an artist ... ;-)

 Speaking of New Age, Dr David Jeremiah has had an excellent series on
 this movement on his radio program the last few weeks.  If I could swing
 the $50 I'd buy the tapes from it.  Pretty scary stuff in there.






Jim

	not to rathole, but Donna reminded me of something...

	Yesterday afternoon, I was "zapping" as I rested a bit on
	the couch - I had a headache and needed to just sit.  I
	heard a woman being interviewed on a talk show mention
	that she had a "God-given gift".  I paused a moment to 
	listen, and the woman is a "psychic" who has supposedly
	helped doctors, police, etc.  find medical problems, lost
	people, murders...  She said she didn't charge these people,
	because it was her duty to do "pro bono" work for the common
	good if God gave her the visions to find these people.
	
	The interviewer asked her how she ever got any rest if she's
	constantly flooded with images, and she said, "Because this
	comes from God, he allows me to filter out the images so I
	can sleep."

	AACCKK!

	ZAP!

	Karen

    Hey, Karen!  Nice to see you here!  I haven't popped my head in this
    conference for at least a month, but I was thinking about the
    visualization stuff mentioned in the other file, and it really bothered
    and confused me.  I let the note go untouched--for now anyway.  I'd
    have to find the note again, but have considered putting a disclaimer
    on it.  What are your thoughts on this?  Catherine did this in one of
    the files and I got the impression the user didn't consider it new age
    and thought we were being stick in the muds.  I don't want to start a
    riot.
    
    Ah, the psychic's.  They say its a gift from God.  One has to wonder. 
    A lot of it sounds like a lot of demonic activity to me.  
    
    
    I've totally lost my train of thought--that happens when you're
    interrupted.  Anyway, guess its time to get back onto the subject at
    hand.
    
    
    Donna

I'll just throw this in ...

`As a man thinks in his heart, so is he..'

I'll echo what was mentioned in an earlier note.. If it is changing yourself, 
and adding `goodness' or `positive change' into your life, then I can see no
harm in it (but please accept that I have NIL experience with the application
of any of this.) 

Stevo...

    Visualization has been a part of Christianity since creation.  Our God
    visualized the world and spoke it into creation.  Moses' exodus was
    based on God's Promised Land where the milk and honey flow and grapes
    of eschcol grow.  Visualization has been tainted by humanistic
    philosophy.  Humanism has taken God's principles and made them their
    own, as if it is some *new* psychological break through.
    For instance, Ron Hubbard's Dianetics and the Power of Positive
    Thinking by [can't remember] are two examples.  
    
    However, God's word commands us to meditate on the things of God
    through the Word of God.  I find nothing wrong visualizing what God has
    promised us or described to us as Heaven.  How many times have you
    heard from the pulpit, "Picture this, streets of gold, mansions..",
    etc.?  
    
    God's word teaches us that we should "set our minds
    on things above" and to " *think* on *these* things, whatsover things
    are pure, just, lovely", etc.   I believe that mediatation and
    visualization are KEY to inner healing.  But inner healing through
    meditating on God, not ourselves. This begins a purification of our
    souls so that we can be holy and abide in Christ [John 15].  And
    abiding is what we are commanded to do in order have our prayers
    answered, joy in our hearts and victory in our Christian walk.
    
    One of the most useful visualizations that helps me in my relationship
    to the Lord, is when I pray.  I visualize myself approaching boldly ��
    God's throne and seeing Jesus standing on His right side and�� I as a 
    little child crawl into His lap to tell him my requests and to know 
    His presence.
    
    When folks talk about affirmation, talk about God's promises, when
    folks talk about visualization, tell them about Christ's crucifixion
    and then about heaven.  Today the humanistic new age cultists are
    perverting God's truths and wisdoms and scaring Christians from the
    fullness of their salvations [imho].
    
    Oh and just one more thing...about psychics... I do believe that God
    through the Holy Spirit can give discernment to people.  Some would
    call this psychic... for instance how many of us have picked up the
    phone and called someone spontaneously only to have them answer the
    phone and say, "I was just thinking about you." :-)
    
    As far as the woman on the talk show, it reminds me of the woman in
    Thyatira, Acts 16.  Paul cast the spirit of divination from her,
    as it was a demon.  But she was telling the *truth*. 
    
    We must be careful and not be sucked in... 
    Just because there is *truth* in something, doesn't mean that it's holy
    or of God.  Many New Agers grasp born-again Christians with their truth
    and confuse them in their faiths.  
    
    As far as losing weight, God's word commands us to treat our bodies well
    as they are the *temple of the Holy Ghost*, visualize that and then ask
    yourself if your temple is fit for God. :-)
    
    [This topic made me think of this... so it means I need to start doing
    that very thing] :-) :-)
    
    Let me close with with this,
    
              "Draw nigh unto God and He will draw nigh unto you."
               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                            VISUALIZE THIS :-)         
                  
    In Him,
    Nancy
    
    
    
    
    

Hi Donna,

    Some good things been said here since I went home last night and took a
    bit of time on it, but I'll put my 2� in anyway :-)

    Basically 'V' type Visualizations are dangerous in that they are
    apparently endeavouring to harness and manipulate spiritual power to
    control the physical world.  This is typified, as represented in.2 by:
    targetting at building up self - the ego - without God, His view or
    perception of us.  The sort of 'positive image' they strive for is one
    which conceals and denies the existence of sin, rather than dealing with
    it.

    To insist "I am the greatest" (in whatever way or area) is to exclude
    God from that part of my heart; to worship self.  ... "I like myself".
    It is built on a false premise of personal adequacy which is in conflict
    with the revealed truth of God.

    God's Word tells us to confess our sins to Him, for the forgiveness that
    removes guilt, and frees us to be the people we are individually designed
    to be (eg 1 John 1:9, 4:16-18).

    The practice of visualization is 'humanly' satisfying, in that it
    appears to achieve temporal goals.  However, as it turns a blind eye to
    personal reality - particularly sin - it allows the enemy to foster
    places in our lives.  Blind areas, which we have effectively denied to the
    LORD.  In an extreme case (maybe not so extreme), this could neutralize
    a person's effectiveness for the LORD, be a channel for serious
    (prolonged) backsliding, substituting the spiritual appetite, or even
    worse...

    Note that the mindset - attitude - inherent in this is opposed to the
    Christian perspective.  It upholds self-promotion instead of humility,
    and personal determination of humanistic ideals instead of submission to
    the LORD and seeking His way.

    Whether there is any application of visualization which can be compatible
    with Christianity - whether there is a neutral 'spiritual principle'
    at root - or not is another matter.  Yonghi Cho (pastor of the immense
    church in Korea) describes something along these lines, in obtaining a
    desk, chair and bicycle.  Not that any of these were extravagant in
    personal lifestyle, not the type of thing to feed personal pride.  In
    fact, his personal reputation with his congregation was in some doubt
    while waiting for the fulfillment.  Is it faith, or is it occult control?
    there are those who would say that Yonghi Cho's experience was outside of
    grace.  That's between him and the LORD.

    If in doubt, stand well back.  In fact, stand well back unless the LORD
    clearly moves in the matter, because He would need to teach it's
    recognition and use all the way through...

						God bless
								Andrew

    -1
    
    Great point Andrew.  
    
    Nancy

Nice response Rebecca.  

Leslie

    It seems we are mixing many things into the discussion of
    visualization.  I have had a great many benefits of visualizing and
    know that it not to be feared.  At the present, I am undergoing
    physical therapy for tear of the lateral miniscus in my knee.  A part
    of that therapy is to visualize the contracting of the leg muscles
    along with an electronic device that displays the realative contraction
    of different muscles to learn to control the movement, so that I may
    relieve pressure on the minisus, distributing the weight a different
    way so that the pain is relieved.  If this is wrong, I cannot see how,
    since all of the Biblical admonitions are to keep my body as a temple
    and improving its working cannot be bad.
    
    I improved my golf swing with two types of visualization.  First, I
    visualized the correct swing, which is something I do all of the time
    to insure that my body is making the correct moves.  Second, when I am
    about to hit a ball, I visualize a successful shot, which helps me
    "shut off my mind and concentrate on the body movement".  I used this
    technique as a basketball player in college, achieving as much success
    as I could from the tools that God gave me.  If I had done less, I
    would have been a lesser man in God's evaluation of me.
    
    It seems, that many are getting into "New Age" crap(that's a technical
    term for PC doublespeak) and your ability to control the situation.  We
    know that God is in control, but to use less of ourselves than is
    possible is just as bad in my opinion.  Some "New Agers" go further and
    use witchcraft to affect the spiritual, which is obviously wrong for
    us.  But, to foresake visualization because the "NA" has perverted it,
    borders on the foolish in my opinion.  
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl 

    
    
    Daryl,
    
     >If I had done less, I would have been a lesser man in God's
     >evaluation of me.
    
     Interesting comment, what do you mean by it?

    I believe that God judges us on a constant basis.  He then gives us
    those learning experiences that we need to grow.  He is obviously
    displeased when our performance is poor.  Please note, that I do not
    believe we need passing grades to make it to Heaven.  But, I do believe
    that there will be some evaluation with Him and He will point out those
    areas that our performance was lacking.  
    
    Daryl

!                                                          But, I do believe
!    that there will be some evaluation with Him and He will point out those
!    areas that our performance was lacking.  
    
    Daryl,
    
      You present an interesting relationship with God. What are you trying
    to express? I do not think I am following you. You used the verb "was"
    between performance and lacking. Is this to indicate personal judgement
    before God? If so, please tell me how it would serve God's purpose to
    blemish your name in the Book of Life, if indeed you are saved? My
    understanding is that the page that contains my life will be as white
    as snow.
    
    PDM
    

    Hmmm... I think there are some semantics issues..
    
    Is it not true our works will be tried by fire?  I think I see where
    Daryl is coming from.  As it says, I believe our works will either burn
    or come forth pure as gold, but even if they burn our bodies will be
    saved.
    
    Daryl is this what you meant?

    It seems that in lots of areas of our lives we are being confronted
    with  various types of "visioning" methods. It's used in stress
    reduction, weight  loss programs, quit smoking programs, sports
    medicine, etc. I've even had  it used while attending a NEEA Congress
    8? meeting in one of the workshops. 
    
    Along the way I've had it drummed into me that certain types of
    visioning (such as those taught by EST) are not of God because they
    incorporate control and manipulation. It's even been said that any type
    of visioning is of Satan. However, I can see value in some of the
    vision exercises  that have been presented but I've always been
    cautious and questioning on  the rightness of them. I've struggled for
    a long time with this issue and  have finally decided that it might be
    helpful to get your views on this. My question is what types of
    visioning activity, if any, is OK and what is something that should be
    avoided? It would probably be best to give examples of OK or stay away
    from methods. Also if there are things to look for in such methods that
    give clues to it's "wrongness" please bring those forth.
    
    I hope that this will be an educational discussion from which I and
    others can walk away with a better knowledge of this subject matter.

Thanks,

nancy 
    

    Ok, I'll get this going by describing a typical visioning exercise. Let
    me know you thoughts on whether it's ok to "practice" this.
    
    You're listening to a stress management tape, they are playing quiet
    gentle music in the background, you hear the roll of waves. The person
    on the tape tell you to breath deeply several times, then asks you to
    see yourself in a calming setting. She asks you questions to help you
    perceive how you feel. She then moves you to several stressful
    situations such as work or home. She helps you identify how you feel in
    those situations and encourages you to transfer the calming exercises
    she worked with you on in the calming setting to this stressful
    setting. Things such as deep breathing, or maybe pleasant thoughts. 
    
    What do you think of this?

Have fun.  Reduce stress.

If they begin to tell you to that god is within you and in everything
and you should become at one, then you've likely strayed out of 
relaxation technique (permissible and proper) into the New Age
consciousness.

Remember that the most dangerous lie is the one that is closest to
the truth.  In fact, the deadliest lies have elements of truth in 
them.  But the whole truth is obscured.  (See note 31.16 about how
some lies have the truth in them.)

Good is the proper application of things and attitudes; bad is the improper
application (or misuse) of things and attitudes.  For example:

  Using a drug to heal is generally thought of as a good thing.
  Using a drug to kill is generally thought of as a bad thing.

So how does one apply visualization?  Remember who is God and who is the
creation.  Ensure that you understand the truth so that the lies (even 
couched with terms of truth - Satan used Scripture to tempt Jesus) do
not take you off course.  If you are flying from Boston to LA, a 1� difference
in your course can put you in San Fransico.  Know the Truth, and then be
free to apply things to your benefit.

Mark

I think you are right to be cautious and prudent regarding what appears to be
a strong New Age influence throughout our culture.

My opinion is that danger lies primarily when we are asked to use such visions
as tools for manipulating reality, and probably not in visioning itself
(or "visualization" which I think is the more common term).  It is this use
of visualization that is the basis for sorcery.  For example, suppose you are
asked to form an image of Jesus in your mind with open arms, smiling at you
and welcoming you.  This is a good thing and should not be feared.  However,
suppose you are asked to form an image of Jesus in your mind, and interact with
him, asking the image for advice and asking the image to teach you.  Or
suppose that in order to heal you emotionally of something, you are asked to
visualize a situation and take control over it, interacting in the image and
doing things, being told that by manipulating this image, you are healing 
yourself and changing something within you. This is the fundamental form of 
the various New Age occultic techiques.  I think "est" and other techniques
of sorcery work by visualizing real world situations you want to change and
then manipulating them in your mind, believing that by doing so you are
changing reality, just like a voodoo doctor takes an image of a person and
believes that afflicting that image produces a corresponding change in
reality.  Only in this case, the image you are manipulating is purely mental,
but much more lucid.

To apply this to your stress management tapes, I think it's probably OK to
imagine yourself in various situations and work out your feelings and learn
things which you can apply to real life.  The danger would come (in my
perception) if she asked you visualize a situation where you are now being
stressed and asked you to act out in your visualization the means of
resolving that stress which you desire, or visualize taking control over that
situation and being victorious and unstressed, and promising that by such 
visualization you will relieve your stress and improve your psyche.

Or say a weight-loss tape that instructs you to "visualize fat being carried
away" or "visualize your metabolism increasing", promising that by doing
this fat will actually go away or metabolism will actually increase.

This is the distinction I see.  Visualizing images itself is not bad, but if
you believe that you can affect reality, whether it's external or internal,
by manipulating these images, therein lies the danger.

Eric

    Notes 384.0 - 384.3 have been moved to this topic on the same subject.
    
    Nancy
    Co-Mod