Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Sensitive stuff this ; heres my 2 pence worth anyway.
    
    Concerning your first question ; there are two things that come to
    mind. Gods national choosing of the Jewish nation did not guarantee
    the individual salvation of every Jew . Individual Jews had to become 
    circumcised in their hearts to become spiritual Jews and external
    circumcision was never enough to be saved; though Pharisiac Judaism 
    did teach this. Paul teaches this in Romans 9 where he explains that
    "not all Israel are of Israel" (v6) ie; not all spiritual Israel who
    are Israel in the natural sense . Also , the entire nation did not
    reject the claims of Jesus to be the Messiah just as there are Jews
    today who believe that Jesus is their promised Messiah (sometimes
    called Messianic Jews) . Paul explains in Rom. 11v25 that the blindness
    is only in part and there is a remnant of Jews (and always has been) who  
    believe.
    
    
    Concerning the second question, I presume you mean what happened to
    those in Old Testament times; I don't think Jesus experienced rebirth
    as we sinners did when we came to faith. I believe that O.T. believers
    or saints were kept in a part of Sheol called Abrahams bosom until Jesus 
    came at His death to bring them to be with the Father.
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    Tom.
                        

    I believe that if a persons heart is truely after God than God will
    make provisions for that person. I know of many a Jewish person who
    have a more powerful and closer relationship with God, though not
    knowing Yeshua, than some who claim to be strong Christians. It's all a
    mystery and we'll only know in the end. I've heard wonderful stories of
    how Yeshua has presented himself to a Jewish believer just as they were
    leaving this world...he removed their blinders. If your heart is after
    God he'll provide the lamb!
    
    It's kind of like the story Dani related last night in our Bible study.
    When she finally went into DBM to begin the job hunting process she
    asked to see if they had a list of others who'd been laid off. Much to
    her surprise there were many good people who Digital's TFSO'd.. made her
    self esteem rise. Likewise when we see God I think we'll all be
    surprise at who we meet (or don't) there in his presense.

    Hi (didn't catch the first name...)
    
    1)  For what are the Jewish people chosen?  
    
    Short answer is to be a light unto the goyim, the nations.
    
    Along with that is the bringing forth of the Torah and the Prophets,
    and of course, the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth.
    
    This does not mean that Jews, by their birthright, are granted
    salvation.  It simply (and wonderfully!) means that there is a calling
    on the Jewish person's life individually and nationally.
    
    Your first question assumes that all Jews have not trusted that Yeshua
    is the Messiah.  That's not true.  Many Jews believed in Him 2000 years
    ago and a small number has continued to do so throughout the centuries. 
    There is a rapidly growing number of Jewish people who believe that
    Yeshua is indeed the long-awaited Messiah.
    
    But for those that don't, this is not so easy to answer.
    
    If Yeshua is to be believed, He said that He alone is the Way, Truth,
    and Life, and that no one would come to the Father but by Yeshua.
    
    I believe Him.
    
    However - one must ask *what* "gospel" has been preached to the Jews
    for the past 1800 years or so.
    
    A "gospel" of earning one's salvation by works, a "gospel" of throwing
    away anything that has to do with Judaism, a "gospel" of 'believe in
    this goyish Jesus or die' - is *not* The Gospel.
    
    While I wouldn't want to suggest anyone hang his eternal destiny on
    this thought, I suspect that those Jews who heard only these kinds of
    "gospels" and rejected them *but* kept their faith in G-d and His
    Promise of Salvation will spend eternity with G-d.
    
    Millions of Jews in not-too-distant history were sent to their deaths,
    in some ways, under the banner of "chrisitianity".  That this
    "christianity" was false and bore no resemblance to what Yeshua taught
    is irrelevant.  Many Jews rejected this "christianity" (and rightly
    so!), and went to their deaths proclaiming "Sh'ma Yisrael, Adonai
    Eloheynu Adonai Echad!"
    
    Salvation is by G-d's gracious gift of faith and that alone.  If the
    above is not evidence of faith, I don't know what is.
    
    I don't blame Jewish people for rejecting false "christianity" and the
    "Jesus" that is usually presented.  However, if one is intellectually
    honest and studies the Gospels and letters of the B'rit Chadesha, one
    will usually find that this Yeshua of Nazareth is not the enemy of the
    Jews "Jesus" is painted to be.  At that point, perhaps one is able to
    make a real choice to either accept or reject the true Gospel.
    
    2) What happened to those who died before Yeshua came.
    
    Great question (as was your first, in case you were wondering ;-).
    
    Yeshua is spoken of as the (Pesach) Lamb slain from before the
    foundation of the world.
    
    Immediately after Adam and Eve sinned, the first Messianic promise was
    made (Gen. 3:15 I think?).  Since that time, the Messianic Hope was
    passed on from age to age and generation to generation.  None who put
    their hope in this Promise would be put to shame.
    
    Before the Eternal stepped into time and the physical event of His
    death and resurrection took place, people could only put their hope in
    what was to come - the Promise that was to be fulfilled.  After
    Yeshua's death and resurrection, people can put their hope in what has
    been accomplished for us - the Promise that has already been fulfilled.
    
    Those who died before Yeshua's death and put their faith in G-d for
    their Salvation, trusting in G-d's Blessed Messianic Promise, are spending
    eternity with G-d.
    
    G-d's Blessed Promise has been, since before the creation of the world,
    Yeshua.
    
    Those are long answers to your quick questions.  Hope they are of some
    help.
    
    Steve  
    

	Well, I'm not the basenoter, but that was greatly helpful to
	me, Steve!!

	Karen

re.2

>I know of many a Jewish person who
>    have a more powerful and closer relationship with God, though not
>    knowing Yeshua, than some who claim to be strong Christians.

 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except
through me"

	This would indicate to me that no one can know God without knowing
Yeshua. This is the benchmark. That some who claim to be strong christians
are further away from God than those Jews who claim to know God but who don't 
know Yeshua is irrelevant. That would just mean that they all don't know God.

	The acid test for knowing God is to know Yeshua.

ace 

    re: .3
    
    Thanks Steve - that was helpful to me also!
    
    Rebecca
    

    Thanks for the answers everyone.
    
    		-Jim-

Hi Jim,

    I've been keen to get my input here too...!  Good points to raise.
    Though Steve has done a masterly job in addressing it.

    I think we should stress that salvation at any time - Old or New Covenant
    - is through the Blood of Jesus alone, and applied on a personal and
    individual basis.  The sacrifices of the Old Testament anticipated this,
    but the sins of the people could not be cleansed by those sacrifices. 
    The sacrificial system was:.
	� A picture of the real fulfillment of salvation God was going to
	  provide at the right time. (Hebrews 10:1).
	� A reminder that sin is a serious problem which needs drastic
	  measures - the  shedding of blood,and taking of life (Hebrews 9:22,
	  10:3).

    Hebrews 11 tells us of many who 'pleased God' by their faith in Him (v6).
    All these lived by faith,  anticipating a fulfillment still to arrive when
    they died (v13) - which God will not disappoint (v16).

    ie salvation for then, as for us, now, is through Jesus' blood, according
    to the individual response goven.  This also applies to any who die
    without ever hearing the name of Jesus - as I understand Psalm 19:1-3 and
    Romans 1:19-20 to indicate.  If all they see of God is their physical
    experience of the world He created, there is an implicit acceptance of
    rejection response which identifies their eternity.

Psalm 19:1-3 :
	"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His 
	 handywork.  Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night
	 sheweth knowledge.  There is no speech nor language, where their
	 voice is not heard."

Romans 1:19 :

	"Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for
	 God hath shewed it unto them.  For the invisible things of Him 
	 from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood 
	 by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so 
	 that they are without excuse.."

    There are also a lot of verses which indicate that the faithful in the
    Old Testament were aware that the sacrifices were only of value if they
    reflected true heart repentance.  A selection of these is:

	Psalm 51:16-17, 40:6, 1 Samuel 15:22, Micah 6:6-8, 7:18-19, 
	Proverbs 15:8, Hosea 6:6

    There are some Old Testament versses which indicate an even greater
    vision of God's provision of mercy:

Job 19:25-27

	"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the
	 latter day upon the earth, And though after my skin worms destroy
	 this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God, Whom I shall see for 
	 myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins
	 be consumed within me.
 
    [ I find it interesting to compare this with Martha's testimony
      concerning Lazarus, in John 11:24 ]

Job 16:19
	"Also now, behold, my witness is in heaven, and my record is on high"

Psalm 51:14
	"Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation
	 and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.



                                                       Andrew

Jim, in your second question:

�    2. What happened to everyone's soul that died before Jesus's
�    rebirth?                 

    I presume you meant to put "...before Jesus' resurrection" - rather
    than rebirth ?   I'll assume so, in my reply.

    As Tom said in .1, the area of Sheol called 'Abraham's bosom' and
    'Paradise' was where the souls of the faithful dead stayed until the full
    cleansing was available.  ie while they were merely 'covered' via the
    Old Testament sacrifices, and until the application of Jesus' blood
    fulfilled the work and Paradise was taken into heaven.

    'Abraham's bosom' is described in Luke 16:19-31.  Some regard this as a
    parable, but it has distinctive features which many believe indicate that
    it is a description of the actual situation.

    It is significant to note from the passage that:
	� There is an unalterable separation between the saved and unsaved
	  dead (v23, 26).
	� The place for the saved is a place of comfort, while the place for
	  the unsaved is a place of agony (v23, 24, 25).

    That the sheol situation has changed can be seen from Philippians 1:23,
    where Paul indicates that the alternative to being 'in the flesh' 'on the
    earth' is 'being with Christ, which is far better'....

    The opening of Paradise into heaven is seen in Ephesians 4:8-9, and in
    the opening of the graves of *holy* man at the crucifixion, as recorded
    in Matthew 27:52-53.

	                                                       Andrew