Conference yukon::christian_v7

You can find this exchange on Atlana::Christian_v6, if you wish to see 
    the whole string.  It was quite an exchange.  
    
    In the below I attempted to answer the question as to whether or not 
    a self image is important to a Christian. We went round and round on that
    definition, I believe, to conclude that semantics was about 80% of the
    banter.  However, I will be attempting an Inner Healing circle
    in my home for women in my church. These women are part of an outreach 
    program to the inner cities. God gave me an outline near 2 years ago and 
    I'm finally putting it into a teachable format, one page at a time...
    s l o w l y... but s u r e l y.
    
    For those of you who don't know my testimony, my father molested me
    from the time I was very young, I believe it started around age 2 until
    I was 13 and placed in a foster home.  However, I was placed in the
    foster home because I had become so rebellious towards my mother [my
    parents divorced when I was 2] that she declared me incorrigible after
    I kicked her in the stomach and used every swore word *she* knew.
    
    I met Christ as Savior when I was 14 in the foster home after having
    read the book Run Baby Run by Nicky Cruz and although that gave me more
    hope then I'd ever known in my life, my past still effected my every
    day life... to the point that at 16 when I was placed back in the home
    with my father to once again experience his perversions, I quit on God
    and spent near 8 years running from the Holy Spirit [which doesn't
    work].  My life has been in restoration now for near 8 years, with the
    last 3 being very key in my inner healing.  You see I suffered a
    divorce from an alcoholic abusive man and had to face my ugliness, my
    sin once again.  God is *so* good, nothing is wasted with Him.  I
    praise Him and give Him the glory for all that he has done in my life
    and continues to do.  The abuse I suffered was severe, though I won't
    go into details here.  But anyone who knows me or has met me can tell
    you that I do not show scars of this abuse in my countenance, God truly
    restores and heals.  
    
    I don't believe in man-made psychology, God's word has all we need,
    it's all there and soon I hope to have my outline with its meat able
    to publish in here.  Pray for this as I only want God's words, not mine
    as I begin this chapter of my life.  
      
    My prayer is that someone will read this and be encouraged, that they
    too can find victory and become whole through Jesus' healing power.  He
    truly loves as no other can... but *we* must be willing to go through
    the purging which is painful, as the result is a soul that sours as an
    eagle over the mountain tops.   Gee, I shore do get mushy.
    
    Nancy
================================================================================
Note 374.26               Self Image and the Christian                  26 of 96
JULIET::MORALES_NA                                   75 lines   4-AUG-1992 11:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sandy,

I still believe that self image is important.  

When our lives have been thrown out of balance by sin/shame everything changes 
and that which appears lucid becomes tainted, like looking through a dirty 
window.  What you see behind, is still the *same* thing, but the view is dirty 
from the stains on the window.

I see shame producing different results, as it affects our self image and 
ability to have a loving relationship with Christ:

1. shame - guilt - humility - salvation
2. shame - guilt - humility/humiliation - salvation
3. shame - guilt - humiliation - lost

Shame leads to guilt, and that guilt can lead to humility and eventually to 
salvation.  For others, the shame leads to guilt, humiliation and a sense of 
being completely and unreachably lost.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christ needs to be the center of our 
lives, I propose to you that the process in getting there (based on childhood 
experiences), can be a long, difficult haul for the child that suffers from 
humiliation.

Our self image or mirror comes from:

    Parents / Authorities

In the Old Testament, God ordained by the law that if a man is caught 
breaking a law that the sons would bear the humiliation for generations and 
oftimes the consequences. (Cain banished and his people would be marked.)
Exodus 34:6-7

Children mirror their image in their parents.  If a parent is neglectful, 
unstable, deceitful, physically or sexually abusing, then the child has the 
"God-given shame" to know that is wrong, but the wounded child takes the 
parent's shame or sin and applies it to themselves.  When one of these 
children (it could be an adult who comes from this environment) accepts 
Christ as Savior, their salvation spawns hope beyond measure.  

The disconnect is that they are still carrying the sin/attitude of the 
parents.  Yes, God forgave them of their sin, and that is a miracle on its 
own merit.  But the wounded child cannot be forgiven for their father's 
(lineage) sins.  So once again that image can be tainted by sin (that which 
is not their own).

Howe��ver, if salvation occurs while the child is still under the direct 
influence of their parents, who are abusive or dysfunctional, the child can 
grow into an adult who rarely has victory in their Christian walk.  They will 
become active in the church for a while, then temptation comes and due to the 
shame of their inability to overcome their father's sin, they abandon 
Christianity.  But, like a see-saw the desire to "do right" will bring them 
back and forth through churches, temporarily serving God, but never 
victorious for consistent Christian service.  

The condemnation of their self image creates an aura of "I'm not good enough 
to serve God."  Negative self criticisms like, "I don't deserve a place of 
service for God" or "I'll never be enough for God" mirrors and the image 
becomes distorted as to how God views his children.

Granted *we* never are enough.  But there comes a point in ones life when 
acceptance of *never* being enough is balanced by the grace and mercy of our 
Lord Jesus Christ, and not the knot deep within the pit of our stomachs that 
reeks havoc in the heart.  (Romans 7 & 8)

With this in mind, Sandy, can you really assert that a person's self image is 
not important to the very vitality of Christianity?

Nancy




    
    
    

    
    Thanks for sharing that, Nancy.
    
    
    Peace and Love to you,
    
    Mike

RE.1

Nancy,

	thanks for sharing that. I would never have known it. The Lord has 
brought you a long way. I can taste Him in your speaking.

ace

    This note is posted anonymously for your input, encouragement,
    experiences and scripture references ...  Take the time to read,
    empathize and share.   Thanks Nancy
    ***************************************************************
    
Nancy,

You are one that I feel confident in asking for some advice, direction, comment
I am not certain what I want or can expect.

I have been justified and sanctified.  I know that Jesus died for me.  He can
forgive my transgressions and all that "stuff".  This is intellectual as well
as sensed realization of the truth.  But, this is my problem, "What about me?"

You know that I am almost as old as dirt, and as such, am entitled to reflect
upon my life to date.  Some parts of it are positive, so are negative, and 
some are downright distressing.  The latter episodes are the ones that bother.
Some specifics might help:

	Positive: Decision for Christ, work in the church, work with children,
	          my first marriage, etc....

	Negative: Eat too much, don't pray enough, don't study the Word enough,
	          don't give enough, etc...

	Distress: My divorce and re-marriage; not emphasizing my faith enough
		  with my children; some of the rotten things I did after 
		  losing my first wife etc...

Christ forgives me, but does I?  It is hard to think about my children not
having life eternal with me.  What about my botched marital status, etc.?  Is 
there a place I can go to make me feel better about myself?  I try to 
address the "Negative" and occasionally make progress, but the final category
embaresses me, depresses me, etc.  Christ is perfect and can forgive me, but I
am a long way from that status...  Do you understand what I am trying to say
and what I am looking for??

Point me if you can;else forget it.

    

    If I may....
    
    Your anonymous friend's struggles are not "uncommon to man" (1cor
    10:13), but let me say that I'm really sorry for his pain...
    
    When you (anon) speak of "feeling forgiven", you've really got somewhat
    of an oxymoron there, in that the two are not necessarily related. 
    Being forgiven and being guilty are two diverse factual states of
    being; regardless of how one feels about it.
    
    Let me give an example.  A convicted criminal stands before a judge
    who, after hearing all the evidence and the jury's verdict, pronounces
    the criminal "guilty" and asks, "Do you have anything to say to the
    court?"
    
    The criminal responds, "I just don't feel guilty."
    
    Well, the fact is, no matter how he feels, he *is* guilty.  His
    feelings may not line up with reality, but he did it, and he's guilty.
    
    Now let's look at another scenario.  A person makes a mess out of his
    life and spends it trying to meet his own needs without consideration
    for G-d.  Somehow, G-d makes Himself real to this person and he becomes
    a believer, confessing his sin and trusting in G-d and the Work He did
    on his behalf through Yeshua.  The person *is* forgiven.
    
    Now, the evil one throws out these accusations in this person's brain
    and it sounds just like that person is reminding himself of the
    horrible things he's done in his life, that even though they were
    confessed - they're not *really* forgiven - and in that same voice
    (that sounds just like the believer's voice, but is actually a whisper
    from the evil one) he hears, "and frankly, I don't forgive myself for
    this mess either" - and the person *feels* unforgiven.
    
    But you know what?  It doesn't matter that he *feels* unforgiven, any
    more than it mattered that the truly guilty criminal didn't *feel*
    guilty.  The fact is, for the believer, he *IS* forgiven, even when his
    feelings don't line up with that truth.
    
    As for pointers, I would say, without at all trying to be trite, spend
    as much time as possible in the Word, reading the truth about who you
    are in Messiah and how He is living His life out through you (Romans
    5-8, Gal 2:20), how you were chosen from before the foundation of the
    world for a life of good works (Eph 2) etc. etc.
    
    "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind."
    
    Renew your mind by washing it in the Word and believe what the Word
    says about you, even if you don't feel it.
    
    Lastly, beloved, memorize Romans 8:1, rest in Him, and have His grace.
    
    
    shalom,
    
    
    Steve

>	Negative: Eat too much, don't pray enough, don't study the Word enough,
>	          don't give enough, etc...

What is enough?

Quantity in and of itself is no guage.  "Quality time" without sufficient
quantity time is also a problem.  Where is the balance?

When the driving force in one's life becomes pleasing God, for that is
what love does, and we are commanded to love God with everything, and
seek His kingdom and righteousness first, then "all these things" will
be added unto us.  Toward this end, I have this verse to help me.

Romans 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that
ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is
your reasonable service. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And this is no burden.  Why?  Because love is the driving force, not
compulsion to jump through "hoops" to *earn* God's approval.

You may almost be as old as dirt, but we all need to take stock and reassess
wherever we are on the spiritual road.  The evil one may accuse you, 
but he does so falsely - of sins that are covered by the blood already.
On the other hand, the Holy Spirit will prompt us in areas where we need
to grow, move on, get off our duffs and start walking.

I once had someone tell me that the person who prays for just one minute
prays a minute longer than the defeated person who doesn't pray because
they don't think they can "do" prayer properly.  This can be exaggerated 
when a person compares their prayers and prayer life to another.  STOP
COMPARING YOUR RELATIONSHIP TO OTHER PEOPLE.  Let me share with you 
one of my most liberating passages:

John 21
 21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that
to thee? follow thou me.                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Realize that God so loved the world that He gave his life for YOU and
that His love relationship is personal - not to be shared with people you
may or may not compare to (favorably or unfavorably).

Let me also say, that I do sympathize, having things in my past that I 
would like to completely disown and am ashamed of.  It pangs me at times,
but I have a job to do now, and dwelling on those things which have been
covered robs time from my best Friend, and hinders me from being what He
wants me to be, which plays right into the hands of the wrong person.
Because I want to please god, I don't want to be hindered, hampered, or
harried by anything, least of all old ground.  Claim redemption by 
God's promise and press toward the mark.

Mark

    I just picked up a book I would highly recommend in your situation.
    
    From what I have read so far, it addresses several of these issues.  It
    is Finding God, and I forget the author right now.
    
    Sparky

Nancy,

Thanks sis for putting in my letter in the Notes file.  As I read the responses
I recognize that I did not convey what I was feeling as well as I wanted.

While they can see pain, they do not understand how and where it is coming.
There was a discussion in Christian regarding divorce and remarriage.  I had a
hard time with that discussion, because I have divorced and re-married.  As
people  pointed out their beliefs and feelings, it was almost as if I had no
way out - I know better and I feel Jesus has totally forgiven me for my errors,
but I know I would have been far happier had I not gotten the divorce and if I
had not remarried if I did get the divorce.  I must live with that realization,
I must daily here people advise that divorce is wrong, and I have given that
advice myself.  Each time, it hurts.

Another case and a very painful one.  Each month, I write a check  for child-
support payment.  It is a drain on me and my wife, which is a reminder on a 
monthly basis.  When my son was playing Little League, I got to see a picture
several months later of him in uniform.  I never got the opportunity to take
him to get his baseball shoes, or work with him on areas he needed special
practice, or got to spend time with him in anticipation of opening day or a
"big" game, or to go with the kids after the game for ice cream or piazza.  I
don't get to know his "buddies" or help him address his problems.  Yet every
month I am reminded of this.  When he visits, we have such a wonderful time
together.  When he steps on the plane to return, there is an emptiness in me
much like that we feel when a loved one dies - we are happy for the time we got
to spend with them, but we miss them and we recognize that we will  continue to
misss them - it hurts.  Yes, I know that all things work together for our good,
but it still hurts at the time.  How do I help myself in these areas?

It is not a case of comparing myself to others.  That has never been a problem
for me.  I am a very competent and confident person.  God has blessed me with
many talents, and I share them.  I now umpire Little League games having done
this professionally and I get a reward for my volunteered effort.  I spent two
years coaching Senior Big League kids, which was again rewarding.  But, after
the game, I realize that I cannot share those things with my son.  Yes, he
has visited when I was coaching and umpiring, but that has been one game per
year.

I know I can't question the decisions that led to this situation.  But, does it
need to hurt this much, for the rest of my life here and possibly for eternity?
As pointed out, the judge said I was guilty, I said I didn't feel guilty, but
I must face the daily pain of incarceration for five years.  Certainly during
that time, I'll pray, read the Word, improve my physical well-being, write
and receive letters from loved ones and still hurt, because I am in jail!

Have I clarified what I was trying to say?

    

Dear Anon,
  I'm sorry if my note was not directed only at you; I often deal in 
broader applications.  I apologize.
  The application I did want to make is that while you will have reminders
all your life, yes all of it, God calls each of us from where we are to
"go and sin no more."  It's like the wedding vow that promises "from this
point forward I take You."  You can't change the past, but the past does 
not have to have complete rule over the future.  Yes, there is cause and
effect, action and reaction, action and its consequences.  There is a 
cliche that says "You can't unscramble broken eggs, but you can make an 
omlette."  While we can regret not having the original intent for the
"eggs," we can determine what we have and what we can do now.
  As you know, there are a lot of opinions on divorce and remarriage.
We know the intent from the beginning, and tragically for some us too late.
But again, God calls us to sin no more -> forward looking.
  Self-examination: what are you doing now and for the future?  How long
will the past hinder your progress and relationships (to God and to people)?
How much should it hinder what you can do from now on -> forward looking.
  God is in the redemption business.  He redeems people and makes them
into what they ought to be; (never thought of God as a 'garbage picker' -
hope I haven't been sacreligious).  We may be junk when He finds us, but
when He redeems us, we are junk no longer.
  And one more thing, I have found.  The Lord is a whole lot more kind on 
us than we are even to ourselves.  He loves you and wants to heal you of
the past.  It won't erase it; it won't unscramble the eggs; but maybe
with a little bit of this and that, voila! an omlette!

Mark

P.S. I think I should be spelling it omelette, right?

{ from "The Bible, Psychology, and You - An Abridgment" by Wendell E. Miller,
  Biblical Counseling Association }

Bob and Jane have just discovered that their daughter has been sexually abused
for several years.  They are distraught.  Bob is angry.  Where should they go
for help?  Where would you go for help?  Would you seek help from a counselor
who uses psychotherapy, from someone who relies on the Scriptures for counseling
principles, or from an integrationist (a counselor who uses a mixture of
psychological theory and the Bible)?

Sufficiency for Problems of Mind and Behavior
---------------------------------------------
The Scripture declares that God "has given us all things that pertain unto life
and godliness..." (2 Peter 1:3).  "Godliness" includes both mind and behavior.
Therefore, God says that the Scriptures are sufficient for structuring both mind
(thoughts) and behavior (actions) in godliness - as 2 Timothy 3:16 also teaches
("instruction in righteousness").  Is God able to give Bob, Jane, and their
daughter peace in their hearts (John 14:27)?  Is He able to take away Bob's
anger (Ephesians 4:31-32)?  Is He even able to use the sexual abuse of their
daughter to make her a more godly woman (Romans 8:28-29)?

Psychology and the "Natural Man"
--------------------------------
The roots of psychotherapy (psychological counseling), and its "great" teachers,
are unsaved men.  God says that the "natural man" (unsaved) cannot know the
things of God because spiritual truth must be spiritually discerned
(1 Corinthians 2:14).  How can the *unsaved* help believers grow in godliness of
mind and behavior?  God says that the unsaved mind is hostile to Him (Romans
8:7).  Should Christians expect to find help in pleasing God from *those who
oppose Him*?  And yet, generally speaking, integrationists accept and teach that
the theories of the unsaved are necessary for making changes in mind and
behavior that are pleasing to God.

Truth vs. Diverse and Mutually Contradictory Systems
----------------------------------------------------
There are more than 250 secular psychological counseling systems!  These secular
systems contain mutually contradictory theories, teachings, and techniques.
Logically, all but one must include error.  Is there any reason to believe that
any of them is free from error?  How could *anyone* expect to select truth from
error while searching through this maze of mutually contradictory systems?

Psychological "Truth" is Changeable
-----------------------------------
With integrationists, as well as with other psychologists, "truth" is
changeable.  New "truth" replaces old "truth" as new "truth" is theorized,
conceived, or discovered.  Are you willing to depend upon "truth" that is
changeable?

With Integrationists, "God's Truth" Becomes Contradictory
----------------------------------------------------------
With integrationists, "truths" of psychology are "anointed" by saying, "All
truth is God's truth."  Then, when the "truths" of 2 integrationists are
mutually contradictory, "God's truth" of one integrationist contradicts "God's
truth" of another integrationist.  Do you believe that contradictory "truth" is
God's truth?

Dangers of Integration
----------------------
How can an integrationist add *his* "truth" to truth which God says is
sufficient, without being in grave danger of neglecting, replacing, or
contradicting some of the truth that is a part of God's sufficiency?  Is there
not danger of weakening Christianity by attempting to integrate (mix) "truths"
of man with God's Word (1 Peter 2:2)?  Could it be that attempts to integrate
psychological "truth" with the Scriptures have weakened Christianity?

Self-Satisfaction and Integration
---------------------------------
Integrationists have promoted the secular concepts of self-esteem, self-worth,
self-image, and self-love.  If the unsaved are taught to "feel good" about
themselves, can we expect them to respond to the Gospel?  If carnal Christians
are taught to "feel good" about themselves, will they feel the sense of guilt
that God designed to lead them to repentance?

Self-Awareness and Integration
------------------------------
Some integrationists, using Freudian [editor's note: this guy was a pervert!]
theory, teach that self-awareness of subconscious motives is the path to
Christian growth.  If Christians look within themselves, will they find truth
and light (John 17:17, Psalm 27:1)?  Is self-awareness the route to Christian
growth (Philippians 1:6, 2:13)?

Eternal Rewards and Integration
-------------------------------
If problems from the past hamper one's Christian growth, which would be more
effective, the "truth" of psychology - or the Word of God?  Are you willing to
risk future rewards for yourself, and for those whom you love, by relying on
human theories rather than the Word of God (2 Corinthians 5:10)?

Awesome Implications of Integration
-----------------------------------
If growth in the Christian life (overcoming problems of mind and behavior)
depends upon psychological "truth," then Christianity had to to wait hundreds of
years for psychology to do what God failed to do!  Did God lie when he said,
hundreds of years before Freud, that *He had already given us all that is
needed* for godliness of mind and behavior (2 Peter 1:3)?  Do humans have the
awesome knowledge and wisdom: 1) to contradict God's declaration that His Word
is sufficient; 2) to select theories from secular and often ungodly sources that
"correct" supposed deficiencies in God's Word; and 3) to "make" these theories
equal to God's Word by declaring, "All truth is God's truth"?

Integration and the Religion of Self
------------------------------------
Biblical truth is God-centered (theocentric) whereas psychological counseling
systems are man-centered (anthropocentric).  The focus of Biblical truth is
*God*.  The focus of psychology is *self*: self-esteem, self-worth, self-image,
self-love, self-awareness, and self-actualization.  With centers of importance
that are opposite ("God" or "self"), would you expect God's will in believers'
lives to be helped, or hindered, by "integrating" the theories of psychological
counseling systems with God's Word?

Integration, The Glory of God, and "Other gods"
-----------------------------------------------
The Scriptures teach that man was created for God's glory (Isaiah 43:7).  If
Christians turn from God's truth and to psychologists and *their* "truth," will
God received the glory, or man?  Is it possible that God looks at this rejection
of His truth in favor of secular "truth" as having other gods before Him (Exodus
20:3)?

Integration and the Holy Spirit
-------------------------------
The Scriptures teach that "it is God who works in you both to will and to do His
good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).  Thus, God's provisions for overcoming
problems of both mind and behavior, and for becoming godly persons, include both
the Word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit.  If a person rejects, replaces,
or adds to the truth that God has given in His Word to accomplish His well, and
that God says is sufficient, is the work of the Holy Spirit helped - or
hindered?

Integration and Prayer
----------------------
Biblical counseling relies on principles that God has provided in His Word, on
the Holy Spirit, and on the power of prayer.  When Christians reject, replace,
or add to truth God has given and declared to be sufficient, should they
expect God to honor their prayers?

Inspiration of the Scriptures
-----------------------------
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God."  More literally translated, "All
Scripture is God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16).  Human authors wrote in their
individualistic styles, but these "holy men of God spoke as they were moved
along by the Holy Spirit" (2 Peter 1:21).  Do you believe that the autographs
(original manuscripts) of the Scriptures were inspired by God?

Inerrancy of the Scriptures
---------------------------
Knowing that the original manuscripts were "God-breathed" (inspired of God), it
follows that the original manuscripts were inerrant.  Do you believe that the
original manuscripts of the Bible were without error?

Inspiration, Inerrancy, and the Authoritative Word of God
---------------------------------------------------------
Over the centuries God has superintended the preservation of the content of the
original Scriptures to an amazing degree of accuracy, so that the Scriptures are
still the authoritative Word of God on every matter or issue which they address
(Matthew 4:4).  Do you believe that the Scriptures are today the authoritative
Word of God on every matter or issue that they address?  If the Scripture are
not the authoritative Word of God, *every* doctrine of Scripture (*even*
salvation) is open to question and doubt, and faith in the original
inspiration of the Bible is *meaningless*!

Authority and Sufficiency
-------------------------
If you do accept the Scriptures as the authoritative Word of God, then,
logically, you must also accept what God says about His Word.  God says that the
Scriptures are sufficient for structuring our minds and our behavior in
godliness (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:3).  Do you believe this?

Logical and Illogical Choices
-----------------------------
Will you choose to believe God's claim about the sufficiency of the Scriptures?
Or, will you attempt to hold the illogical position that the Scriptures are
indeed the authoritative Word of God, but wrongly claim to be sufficient for
godliness of mind and behavior?  Or, will you attempt to hold the equally
illogical position that the Scriptures are indeed the authoritative Word of God,
but that, in order to succeed in the Christian life, the "truth" of psychology
is needed?  Logically, you must accept God's claim to the sufficiency of the
Scriptures regarding godliness of mind and behavior without any help from
psychology, or else you must acknowledge that you do not really believe that
the Scriptures are the authoritative Word of God.

Which Will You Choose?
----------------------
Will you choose to believe God's claim that the Scriptures are sufficient for
structuring both mind and behavior in righteousness, or will you disbelieve God?
 Will you choose the Scriptures as your source of truth for living, or will you
search for psychological "truth"?  Will you choose pastors, biblical
counselors, and other theologians as your teachers of truth, or will you look
to those who teach a mixture of biblical truth and psychology?  Will you choose
to test all of the teachings of everyone to see if indeed they teach biblical
truth (Acts 17:11)?  Or will you accept whatever is taught by Christians who are
held in high esteem?  Will you choose, as God gives you influence, to promote
*unity in God's Word* by helping others understand the Scriptures, and by
helping them become perceptive to error?  Which will you choose - for yourself,
for those whom you love, and for those for whom God gives you the oversight -
the Word of God, or an amalgamation of the Word of God and theories of
psychology?  The Bible or psychology?  Your choice has awesome and eternal
implications!