Conference yukon::christian_v7

	"Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will
	not turn from it."  (Prov 22:6)

	"Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not
	forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your
	heart as long as you live.  Teach them to your children and to 
	their children after them."  (Deut 4:9)

	"These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts.
	Impress them on your children.  Talk about them when you sit at home
	and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get
	up."  (Deut 6:7)

	"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.  For what do righteousness
	and wickedness have in common?  Or what fellowship can light have with
	darkness?  What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?  What does
	a believer have in common with an unbeliever?  What agreement is there
	between the temple of God and idols?  For we are the temple of the
	living God.  As God has said:  'I will live with them and walk among
	them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.' 'Therefore,
	come out from them and be seperate, says the Lord.  Touch no unclean
	thing, and I will receive you.'"  (2 Cor 6:14-17)

	"Now the overseer must be above reproach...He must manage his own
	family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect.
	(If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he
	take care of God's church?)"  (1 Tim 3:2-5)

	"If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his
	immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an 
	unbeliever."  (1 Tim 5:8)

Several points to consider regarding the education of our children:

1.  The education and upbringing of our children is our responsibility as 
parents, and we will be held accountable for what they are taught.  If we
delegate the responsibility for the education of our children to someone else,
we are still the ones accountable for what our children are taught, because it
was our responsibility to begin with.  When we as parents decide to marry and
consequently have children we take it upon ourselves the responsibility of
raising them in the knowledge and wisdom of the Lord. 

	- It is a poor example to set, by delegating major parental 
	  responsibilities to others, especially those we scarcely know.

	- It is a poor set of priorities to place job, "ministry", etc. above
	  the upbringing of our children.

2.  By sending our children to worldly institutions, we are demonstrating to 
our children by our actions that we approve of everything they teach.  It is
not enough to "tell" our children that many of their teachings, ideologies,
value systems, and philosophies are wrong: 

	- "Telling" them that what their teachers are teaching is wrong while 
	  at the same time expecting them to be obedient to their teachers 
	  and excel in their studies is contradictory. 

	- "Telling" them that what their teachers are teaching is wrong while
	  continuing to submit them to that teaching is hypocritical.

3.  Instilling the fear of God and imparting the knowledge and application 
of God's word is more significant than the learning of secular knowledge and
skills.  A less educated man of good character might be capable of doing 
less educated things, yet can always learn more on his own initiative.  In
contrast, a more highly schooled man of bad character will misuse the fruit
of his learning and become a liability to society.  Therefore, a teacher's 
character is more important than his scholastic qualifications and hence it
is shortsighted to consider a child's potential secular scholastic achievement
while neglecting to give greater consideration to the educator's spiritual
character.  It is negligent at best to place our children under the influence
of role models (the educators and the classmates) who profess no fear of God. 

4.  It is hypocritical to claim that we the church are to be a "light" to a
world that is living in darkness, while depending on the world to provide
"light" to our very own children. 

5.  It should be noted that those who are in leadership positions in the church
are under even greater scrutiny, and must be careful to provide the correct
role model for others to follow within the church.  In any case, attending to
the needs of one's family takes priority over time spent on church ministries. 
It is of great importance that a church leader who has children provide the
model example of how to raise children, so that others may follow in this
example.

Social skills are learned most effectively in an age-integrated and one-on-one
environment and least effectively in an age-segregated setting.  Children need
social role models who are older and more mature, rather than peer role models
who exhibit the same level of immaturity, and consequently have little of value
to contribute.  Mass education primarily involves peer interaction and one-way
communication by the teacher.  At-home instruction involves two-way interaction
by the teacher, and an age-integrated environment where older children and
adults can be observed as models.  The age-segregated environment is also not
representative of real-world social scenarios, whereas the age-integrated
environment is.  Mass education isolates children from the real world and
hinders their social development. 

Children are individuals with different scholastic strengths and weaknesses.
The model of an "average child" cannot be expected to fit every child.
Personal instruction allows scholastic achievement at different "grade" levels
for different subjects, and tailoring of educational methodologies and programs
to fit each child in each subject.  Mass education caters to a child fitting
only a particular theoretical model.

Personal instruction allows each child to progress at their optimal rate in
every area.  Mass education imposes an average rate of progress for all 
subjects across all students in a "class".  Every student will either be
held back by too slow a rate of instruction or not be able to keep up with 
the rate of instruction.

Home instruction is highly efficient, compared with mass education.  Children
do not wait in line, travel to and from the institution, go from class to 
class, fill out forms, sit in "study hall", have recess or extended lunch time,
etc.  Structured lessons at home can typically be accomplished given 2-3 hours
a day of instruction, compared to 6-8 hours at an institution. 

Parental instruction brings families closer together by increasing the amount
of time and interaction between family members.  Parent-child bonding and
sibling bonding is consequently greater.  Family team effort is encouraged.

Parental instruction encourages respect by children for their parents as
authorities, and allows parents to have more control over their children.
Children are supervised more closely by the instructor, and the instructor
is the parent himself.

Home education (in the U.S.) provides children with immunity from arbitrary
intrusion and interrogation by social service agencies.  A social worker or
other state official needs no parental permission to interrogate a child in a
public school setting, and no search warrant to take custody of the child from
the parents.  A social worker or other state official needs a search warrant to
enter your home without your permission.  To get a search warrant, they have to
appear before a judge and demonstrate probable cause that criminal activity is
occurring on your property.

Home instruction accomodates and is not impacted by family schedule needs, such
as vacations, major illnesses, off-shift work schedules, etc.  Mass education
is not planned around the schedules of those educated, or their families.

It's legal.  Home schooling is legal in all 50 states of the U.S.  A national
organization (HSLDA) is available to defend the rights of member homeschool
families against the occasional adverse contacts and legal problems that
continue to occur in each state, and is extremely effective in doing so.

It works.  Home-schooled children as a group perform scholastically better than
non-home-schooled children as a group, typically in the 70-80th percentile
(where 50th percentile represents the average over the population.) 

You can do it.  Studies have shown no correlation between the academic 
qualifications of the parents and the scholastic performance of the
home-schooled children as a group. 

You can afford it.  Even the most expensive and elaborate curriculum materials
and supplies cost only a few hundred dollars per year.  This and your "lost"
salary (from staying at home) will be more than offset by the additional time
and dedication your children will have towards your family's economic
interests.  Your children are "pearls of great price".  Sell your home and move
into a slum if need be.

You have help.  There are more home-based curriculums available than you will
have time to peruse through.  There are conferences, support groups, magazines,
and books on home-schooling.

Point:  They need exposure to the real world, not isolation from it.

Counterpoint:  Public school and mass education is not representative of the
real world.  It is in fact there where children are isolated from the real
world and placed in a highly artificial, concocted environment.  The mass
education environment is an environment that is only representative of other
mass education environments. 

Point:  They need to be exposed to evil, so they know how to deal with it.

Counterpoint:  This is absolutely contrary to the scriptures.  Were the
Israelite children sent to the Philistine camp to learn there?  In fact, were
any Israelites sent to the Philistine camp or the nations surrounding them to
benefit there?  "Don't be misled: 'Bad company corrupts good character.'" (1
Cor 15:33).  "'Therefore, come out from them and be seperate, says the Lord. 
Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.'" (2 Cor 6:14-17). 
"...overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:21)  Constant exposure to only good
makes one so accustomed to good that evil is recognized immediately as deviant.
Constant exposure to evil causes one to be accustomed to evil and dulls one's
senses to it, besides providing unnecessary temptations to embrace it and
participate in it.  Woe to those who put evil for good and good for evil! 

Point:  We need to be a light to the world.  Our children can be a good 
witness.

Counterpoint:  Are your children ready for the mission field?  If so, then
send them off to Africa and be done with it.  In reality, your children are
still learning and are not ready to teach.  In reality, your children will be
influenced more than they will influence.  Then, when they grow up, they will
pass on these ungodly values that they learned as children and consequently
turn people away from the path of righteousness.  Don't be fooled!

Point:  They are learning non-spiritual things at school, like math and etc.  
We teach them about God at home.

Counterpoint:  Firstly, this is a double standard, that they get a godless
education at an institution and then a godly education at home.  Secondly, it
is naive to suppose that they are not learning spiritual principles from their
teachers and classmates at school along with the targeted educational skills. 
Thirdly, home instruction is better and more effective than mass education. 
In summary, education should involve the whole person and integrate spiritual
principles along with the practical ones.  Don't sit on the fence!

Point:  So-and-so went to the public school, and he turned out okay.  

Counterpoint:  Did so-and-so turn out okay because of the public school, or in
spite of the public school?  Rather, you should say, 'So-and-so turn out okay,
by the grace of God.'  Survivors do not justify the system they survived.

Point:  I send my children to a Christian school.  It is a good Christian 
school.

Counterpoint:  You still scarcely know the teachers, you have little control
over the teaching, you have no control over the peer influences, you still have
all the problems of mass education vs. personal instruction, you are delegating
a major parental responsibility to others... At the very least, it is safe to
say that they will do better at home.  Why settle for less?  They deserve the
best you can give them.  They are *your* children. 

Point:  Easy for you to say.  I am a single parent, and must earn my own
family's living with my full-time job.

Counterpoint:  This is an issue for which I confess I do not have a good
answer.  Ideally, the church is supposed to support widows and those in need. 
As it is written, "There were no needy persons among them.  For from time to
time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the
sales, and put it at the apostles feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he
had need."  (Acts 4:34-35).  And, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure
and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and
to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."  (James 1:27)  In practice,
the contemporary church is devoted more towards putting on Sunday morning
worship and collecting money than aiding those in need -- that is the sad
reality.  My advice is this:  Knowing that God intends for you to raise your
own children and not send them off to the Philistine camp to be raised by
others, make up your mind that this is your goal, no matter what the cost, pray
for a way out, and I believe God will honor your faith and make provision for
you.  And by the way, have you considered a home business? 

Point:  I hear what you are saying and know that you have a valid point.
However, I and my children are doing well, and I currently choose to continue
the way we are going.

Counterpoint:  Have you not read the following scripture?:  "...When such a
person hears the words of this oath, he invokes a blessing on himself and
therefore thinks, 'I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way.' 
This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry.  The Lord will
never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man.
All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot
out his name from under heaven." (Deut 29:19-20) 

    re .1-.4 (by KALI::WIEBE)Garth
    
    My wife and I have been looking into home schooling (of our not-yet-
    school-age children), having given it serious consideration for many of
    the reasons you have cited.  For what it's worth, there was even a
    series of feature articles in Awake! on the subject that made many of
    the same points [though it didn't conclude that home schooling was
    obligatory for Christian parents -- just that they had to seriously
    consider their options and trade-offs while pursuing the goal of
    raising godly children].
    
    One thing you said raises a question in my mind, however:
    
>Home education (in the U.S.) provides children with immunity from arbitrary
>intrusion and interrogation by social service agencies.  A social worker or
>other state official needs no parental permission to interrogate a child in a
>public school setting, and no search warrant to take custody of the child from
>the parents.  A social worker or other state official needs a search warrant to
>enter your home without your permission.  To get a search warrant, they have to
>appear before a judge and demonstrate probable cause that criminal activity is
>occurring on your property.
    
    Do you really feel that loving, balanced, Christian parents have reason
    to fear having their children interogated by social service agencies,
    and possibly even taken into custody?  
    
    Being honestly sensitive to government pressure against families on the
    basis of religion [though, perhaps -- as a Witness -- for different
    reasons], may I ask, what practices of Christian families would attract
    the interest of government agencies in such a way?  Can you cite
    examples of the sort of intrusion you are alluding to, and the reasons
    for them, that would have been avoided if the children involved had
    been home-schooled, and thus had been kept hidden from the 'prying
    eyes' of the secular authorities?
    
    I ask because, as I'm sure you know, there are religious groups that we
    could both agree on as being 'unhealthy' that have made the news for
    having practiced truly abusive behavior against children of said
    religious parents -- with one notable feature of the situations being
    isolation of the children (i.e., home schooling), which is just the
    sort of thing that makes home schooling for religious reasons look bad
    to its critics.
    
    My feeling is that by saying what you do, here, you make it sound as
    though Christian parents have something truly bad to hide, as opposed
    to merely having a genuine desire to 'hide' their children from the bad
    influences of the world (as much as is reasonably possible, that is,
    short of living in total isolation).  Do you see what I mean?
    
    Just to keep things in pespective, however, I do agree with a lot of
    what you've written.  (How's that for a change? :-)
    
    -mark.

>Home education (in the U.S.) provides children with immunity from arbitrary
>intrusion and interrogation by social service agencies.  A social worker or
>other state official needs no parental permission to interrogate a child in a
>public school setting, and no search warrant to take custody of the child from
>the parents.  A social worker or other state official needs a search warrant to
>enter your home without your permission.  To get a search warrant, they have to
>appear before a judge and demonstrate probable cause that criminal activity is
>occurring on your property.
    
    ++Do you really feel that loving, balanced, Christian parents have reason
    ++to fear having their children interogated by social service agencies,
    ++and possibly even taken into custody?  
    
    Hi -mark,  Yes, I do. [I know I'm not Garth].  From what I've been
    reading at least two states Colorado and Massachusetts have agencies
    that snatch children for *reported* child abuse before checking the
    substance of the accusation.  And spanking your child is considered
    abuse.  Most Christian homes that I know of spank their children.  And
    not abusively either.  Although there are those who do.
    
    This places every Christian home in jeopardy if we carry out God given
    principles for raising our children.
    
    Nancy

    
    I agree with Garth, less vehemently however.
    
    We homeschool our child for most of the reasons Garth states.  It is
    true that the amount of time required is only 2-3 hours per day four or
    five days per week.
    
    Christian school is better than public school but does share many of
    the problems Garth mentions.  Unfortunately, Christian school's expense
    usually limits attendance to upper middle class to wealthy families. 
    And I imagine that most Christian schools do not have any (or have very
    little) requirements concerning the religious beliefs of parents of
    children attending.  Even at a local Christian school I am familiar
    with where the parents' religious commitment is mandatory, the children
    in many respects reflect the world's values in terms of materialism and
    cruelty.
    
    So, I'm a proponent of homeschooling.  We have many friends who
    homeschool.  Some of them, in our estimation, are doing a good job and
    some of them aren't.  But I bet all of the children will do better
    scholastically than the average public school child and will be
    significantly more mature, godly, and loving than their public school
    peers.
    
    jeff
    
    

    >significantly more mature, godly, and loving than their public school 
    >peers.
    
    I dont believe that maturity,godliness or their ability to love, is
    even a part of the equation with regards to the question to homeschool
    or not.  These attributes and qualities are learned at home regardless
    of whether the child is 'homeschooled' or not.  You see the problem
    with public school and even christian school is that the unaware parent
    believes that the child is receiving all the he/she needs. The only
    advantage in homeschooling is that there is the one on one attention
    given between child and parent; this is a necessity that is too often
    disregarded when a child is sent to public or private school.  The
    bottom line is that we as parents need to be an active part of our
    child's lives and not let the world's influences dictate their
    morality.

    
    It is a part of the equation Dan!  A parent has approximately eight
    more hours a day to instruct and influence the child in every sphere of
    life.  Children that interact with their parents primarily are naturally 
    going to be more mature are they not?  Children without the worldly
    influence of public school and with the added instruction should be
    more godly (in the sense of demonstrating godly behavior more
    regularly).  Maybe its a stretch to say they will be more loving as
    that would be hard to measure anyway.  If love is an action and
    attitude the love of the parent demonstrated in homeschooling should
    affect the child very positively and does as far as I can tell,
    especially when compared to public school children without any
    Christian influence in their lives.
    
    jeff

    Hi Jeff,
    
    You know my Pastor feels somewhat like you do about our Christian
    School.  You see our Christian School is a members only environment. 
    Only those who attend our church can have their kids in the school and
    believe it or not, it goes one step further, you must attend all the
    church services... Now there are no gustapo enforcements that if you
    don't your kids are kicked out of the school.  However, its written up
    front and it's an agreement that you make when you put your child in
    the Christian School [at my church].
    
    I think that this environment is great!  I believe that the other kids in
    the school come from homes that are just like mine, desirous of serving
    God and raising godly children.  
    
    Nancy

    I'm trying to find out some info on Outcome-Based Education (OBE).  Has
    anyone heard of it or know where I can access more info on it?  From
    what I gather, it's a New Age-styled program, originating out of
    Oklahoma, that is seeping into the public schools.
    
    any info would be appreciated,
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    I don't have any information on this... BUT, last night I attended a
    school board candidate forum.. At this event, there were several
    candidates talking about "Outcome-Based Education". This was the first
    time I'd heard of it... Now, your topic is the 2nd.. I guess it's
    growing faster than thought.
    
    BTW.. in case you're wondering, I'm in colorado Springs...
    
    Bob G.
    

    From what I have gathered so far:
    
    - they stress the use of a mentor.  Obviously the aim is the shrink the
      parents' role in the child's life.
    - Sex education will be taught starting at Kindergarten on up.
    
    The amazing thing about it, is a program I was told about that recently
    aired on the local PBS station.  I have yet to verify this, but the
    host of the show (don't have a name yet either) was a major advocate of
    OBE.  He arrogantly announced that they will seep into your schools and
    take control without you ever knowing or hearing about OBE.  The
    attitude was presented to me as being sinister and smacks of New Age
    drivel.
    
    Mike

    BTW - I checked the online libraries at Arizona St. and there isn't a
    single listing with the OBE keywords in the title.  It may be under a
    different name but I haven't had any luck yet.

I don't understand OBE very well, but from what I do understand the basic
problem seems to be not with the idea itself, but from what the "outcomes" that
are chosen are.

As I understand it, the basic idea is to determine what you want to the kids to
know when they're done with school, and then base curriculum on that.  So an
"outcome" could be "they know how to read at X complexity level."

The problem is that some of the "outcomes" tend to be things like "valuing
differences," which is generally taken way beyond that, and in practice
translates to "accept anything and everything and make no value judgements." 
As has been discussed here at length, that concept is not very popular with
many of us.

Paul

Article 26782 of soc.religion.christian:
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From: [email protected] (John Emery)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Outcomes Based Education
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 22 Oct 93 07:25:01 GMT
Sender: [email protected]
Organization: Fluke Corporation, Everett, WA
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Approved: [email protected]

In article <[email protected]> [email protected] (Bill Hamilton) writes:
>One of the education buzz-words we hear these days is Outcome(s) Based
>Education (OBE).  Quite a few Christians seem to be up in arms over it,
>and I'm sorry to say I don't know what it is.   A battle over reforming
>education is heating up in the MI legislature, and OBE seems to be one of
>the issues.  Any pointers to more information would be very welcome.
> 
>Bill Hamilton | Vehicle Systems Research               
>GM NAO R&D Center | Warren, MI 48090-9055          
>[email protected] | (313) 986 1474
>-----------------------------------------------
>If God is for us,  *who* is against us?  Romans 8:31


Outcome based education (OBE) is the key method of education in the reform
movement that is sweeping the nation.  Presently, 49 out ot 50 states have
adopted OBE in some form or another.  OBE also goes by the names mastery 
learning or performance based education.  Under this type of education,
students must master certain "outcomes".  A hypothetical example might
be that all students must attain a B in Algebra.  It isn't enough for the
 student to pass the course.  Rather the student must be able to
demonstrate that he has mastered Algebra.  Under this type of educational
method, time limits are taken away (quarters, semesters, years, etc).  If
someone is not a strong math person, he would be remediated over and over
again until he can finally demonstrate mastery.

The curious thing about OBE is that is has a track record of failure.
Great Britian tried OBE and found it a failure.  A report by Robert E.
Salvin of Johns Hopkins University critical of the results of this technique
states that it failed to increase student scores on standarized tests.
Programs in many states tried OBE and rejected including Montana, Tennessee,
Michigan, New Mexico, Arkansas, Pennsylvania, and Washington.  The Chicago
independent School District unanymously agreed to dump OBE when they found
that after investing $7.5 million over five years, their students were falling
behind on standardized tests.  Then Secretary of Education William Bennett
called the Chicago school system the worst in the nation.  In Pasco, 
Washington, after adopting OBE, SAT scores dropped and the dropout rate
increased.

To understand why it fails, consider that fact that each student must master
each outcome.  An outcome is an educational goal which the student must
*demonstrate* that he has "mastered".  Since in each subject, there is a
distribution of performance levels, in order for OBE to be practical, the
level that is defined as "mastery" must be lowered in order for ALL the
students to master the outcomes.  This is precisely what the Johns Hopkins
University report discovered.  The very lowest achievers benefitted from it
however the performance of the rest of the students decreased.  Since we have
fixed standards such as the SAT, this is easy to see.

Why in the world would these same states and others ever think about adopting
OBE then?  Because while OBE decreases academic achievement, it is shown to
BE ABLE TO CHANGE BEHAVIOR AND ATTITUDES.  OBE uses B.F. Skinner's model of
repetition to change the subjects values and attitudes.  OBE is a control
issue!  Benjamin Bloom, the father of mastery learning, defines good teaching
as "challenging the student's fixed beliefs".  This practice is also coined
as "critical thinking" or "values clarification".  Bloom, a professor of
education from the University of Chicago and a long considered guru of 
educational restructuring said, 

"The purpose of education and the schools is to change the thoughts, feelings,
and actions of the students...The curriculum may be thought of as a plan
for changing student behavior."  He has also said, "We give the student 
information intended to change his attitude...What we call 'good teaching' is
the teacher's ability to attain affective objectives through challenging the
students' fixed beliefs and getting them to discuss the issues."

In education reform pushed by the education establishment, it is universally
being declared that the teacher's role in the classroom is changing.  Under
OBE, the teacher becomes a facilator or what is more commonly referred to
as a "change agent".  State-defined attitudes, values, and beliefs become 
the "outcomes" that students must master.  Those who don't reach the goals
are remediated.  If they don't master then after this, they are remediated
over and over again.  It is a form of indoctrination or brain-washing.   

For instance, in Pennsylvannia, the state uses what is called the Educational
Quality Assessment (EQA).  The goal of the EQA is to assess whether students
are meeting what are called the "minimum positive attitudes".  Local school
district funding is based upon how students do on the EQA and also how school
districts write their long range plans so that they students will meet the
"minimum positive attitudes".  Of the 415 questions on the EQA only 30 are
academic and all the rest are attitudes!!

For instance, under Locus of Control, the correct attitude is
to go with the flow.  Under citizenship, students are tested for "threshhold
of behavior".  For instance one of the questions asks the students under
what conditions they would join a hypothetical group called the Midnight
Marauders that going around spray painting walls at night.  The student has
to answer yes or no.  The question reads:

I would join the group if:
	a. My best friend asked me to join (y or n).
	b. Most of the popular students were in the club (y or n).
	c. My parents would ground me if they found out I joined (y or n).

The correct state-defined answers? a. yes, b. yes, c. no.

When a former teacher and gubernatorial candidate started to research
this new education, she expected to find in the OBE goals stuff like
geography, history, spelling, and reading.  Instead she found adaptibility
to change, ethical judgement, family living, self-esteem, proper environmental
attitudes, etc.  On the EQA, under "adaptibility to change", the proper 
minimum positive attitude turne out to be:

"Rapid emotional adjustment to change without protest".

When the goals from 26 states were pulled, they all turned out to be the same!
Many of them word for word!  Consider Ohio's outcomes and ask yourself if
the goals are about academics or about creating state indoctrinated robots:

1. Participate in civic and community service activities.

2. Function as a productive and responsible citizen of a GLOBAL SOCIETY.
   (emphasis mine)

3. Exercise basic rights and responsibilities of citizenship in a democratic
   society.

and on and on.  From state to state it's all the same.  The "values" being
promoted include those like flexibility, adaptibility to sudden change, 
tolerance,  multicultural understanding, understanding others who are 
different, diversity, sociability, positive view of self, empathy and 
politeness in group settings, taking responsibility to save the earth,
interpersonal skills, ability to reach a group consensus,  cooperation over
competition, viewing the world as a single interdepent community, etc.

The overall model is that of a compliant, nonprotesting worker who accepts
sudden changes, goes along with the group, does what the state tells him
to do.  The social model is one of a global, interdependent community.
For instance in a local school district in my state a committee for student
outcomes came up with the following ideas as possible outcomes:

*Learn to live in a global environment, and accept responsibility for
 waste management.

* Ability to cope successfully with economic and social issues of a global
  society.

* National to global economy.

* Understanding other cultures--smaller world, world citizen.

* World school--controlled by corporation.

Remember under OBE, students must not only acknowledge that they believe
these values, they must demonstrate it!  Under OBE, our current assessment
standards such as standardized tests (SAT, etc) will be replaced.  This makes
sense, otherwise we would all see how academic peformance was dropping with
the implementation of OBE.  However with NEW standards of assessment, we won't
have past history to compare to so no one will be able to tell if OBE is
actually working.  

Under OBE in the restructured education, report cards are replaced with
electronic portfolios that follow the student into the work place.  Instead
of diplomas, students receive "Certificates of Mastery", once again computer-
ized.  There is cooperation between the education establishment and big 
business concerning education reform.  The U.S Department of Labor has put
out a report by its committee called SCANS that is telling education what
labor expects.  They recommend that student's not be hired for work without
a certificate of mastery.  Colleges and Universities are also being challenged
to accept this in place of transcripts.

Heres how it works in the classroom.  Textbooks are replaced with computers
that serve up the student what is called "learning nuggets".  If the student
doesn't master the particular learning nugget, a central database is accessess
what is called a Student Information Module to remediate the student.  The
Student Information Module contains biographical data and learning styles
that have been gathered on computer under a what is called EXPRESS
(Exchange of Personal Records Electronically for Students and Schools).

Yes information is being gathered in a centralized databank on an individual
level.  Included is a whole array of information on the child including 
personal information.  Remediation is done on computer by "validated programs"
from all over the country that have been tested on the federal level and
proven to change behavior of students in specific subgroups.  The Student
Information Module matches up a validated program to the biographical data
and learning styles stored on the individual student.

If you would like more information, e-mail me.

God bless,

John Emery
-- 
John Emery		
[email protected]      
			
			



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From: [email protected] (Gregory Kainz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Outcomes Based Education
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We in Colorado are facing Outcome-based education in Jefferson county, at 
least.  My understnading is that seniors will be graduated based on their
achievement of certain outcomes, rather than proven performance on the
arts and sciences.  These Outcomes are as nebulous as "social interaction",
"self-esteem", and other ***real*** :-< important issues in which to 
spend our tax dollars (bet you can't guess ***MY*** opinion of Outcome
Based education.....)  Next time we vote for school vouchers, stand by
to hear from me....

Greg



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From: [email protected] (Andrew W Steiner)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Outcomes Based Education
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
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Hello!
Excerpts from netnews.soc.religion.christian: 21-Oct-93 Re: Outcomes
Based Education by Michael Covington@aisun3 
> In article Oct.20.04.39.38.1993.982 (Bill Hamilton) writes:
> >One of the education buzz-words we hear these days is Outcome(s) Based
> >Education (OBE).  Quite a few Christians seem to be up in arms over
it > Real information is scarce and I, too, would welcome some.
> > The rumor mill around here says that one of the problems with OBE is
> that it attempts to impart "politically correct" attitudes and
> opinions rather than just knowledge.

    I am a freshman at Carnegie Mellon University and have freshly
sprung out of high school as my class implies. My high school is
considering implementing more Outcome Based Education, and there are
enough disadvantages to lead me to believe that overall OBE is not a
good idea.
    These anti and non-Christian themes do not come from the basic
philosophy of Outcome Based Education, but from the attitudes with which
teachers, as members of secular society, are imposing on the Outcomes
that design. 
    OBE is inherently not a bad idea, especially for the "lower 75%" of
the students. The concept is that one measures the success of the
student by the completion of certain outcomes. When a student gets a
unacceptable grade on a test, instead of simply continuing on with the
next topic, the student is encouraged to retake the test in until s/he
can demonstrate an acceptable level of knowledge of the material. This
has worked well in My high school's entry-level Chemistry class for most
of the students. However, the flaws in the basic idea stem from the
situations of the students that exceed the normal expectations of
children their age. OBE is designed to give the mid-range student an
interesting environment while providing those with extra needs, extra
practice on the material. For the student who excels, OBE often provides
NO REASONABLE METHOD of making the class INTERESTING or USEFUL for them.
    Now to the creation of the outcomes themselves. This is the part of
OBE that often teaches ANTI AND NON-CHRISTIAN ideas. Many teachers have
resolved to create the outcomes that model society, and live with their
own definition of ethics. Instead of the school being an example to
society, OBE teaches students to use society as their example for a
place to acquire learning. This is, to put it lightly, a very bad idea.
Although this is essentially unrelated to OBE (basically the same
problem occurs in traditional style teaching), this is still an issue
that needs to be considered. Unfortunately instead of separation of
church and state, we have taught the state to accept only one religion:
the religion that has no values except that which are held by the
majority of society. Sometimes, in the effort to stop teaching
Christianity too much, teachers teach atheism. Some examples of this are
the following ideas that I have been told during my secondary education:
    1) You can do anything you put your mind to.
    2) If you just work hard enough you can achieve you dreams, whatever
they may be.
    3) God and Christianity can only enhance your life, and is only a
method for doing so like any other religion
    4) Having an opinion that somebody else is wrong about a specific
thing is discriminatory.
    5) To believe in hell is to believe in racism.
BOTTOM LINE: OBE teaches values that society has in spite of the fact
they are often contrary to Christianity, not because it is a bad idea,
but because teachers want to teach values, no matter how they teach them.

My dad, an agnostic, also thinks OBE teaches too many values.

Hope this helps...

Andrew Steiner.
--------------------------------------------------
Andrew Steiner                [email protected]
1 Cor 13:1-3 "If I have not love.....I am nothing"
--------------------------------------------------



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From: [email protected] (Rulane Merz)
Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Outcomes Based Education
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The only thing I have heard on Outcome(s) Based Education
is that it does away with grades, and instead gives the
students certain goals to meet.  It is becoming an issue
in education.  The teachers I have talked with, though
(not very many, actually, so this is a *small* subset
of all teachers!), feel that it is a "fad" which will
eventually die away -- hopefully without hurting the
education of the children.

    Another thing I forgot to mention, in an educational sense, is their
    reading techniques.  They stress whole reading (memorization) over
    phonics.  My kids have always done poorly with whole reading.

    For my friends that are a little more paranoid, they dislike the
    reading programs/contests.  For instance, they have reading contests
    twice per month.  If the teacher calls your house at night and the
    child is reading, the child gets a prize (usually a coupon for free
    pizza or something).  Many view this as an invasion of privacy and the
    school's attempt to dictate what goes on in the home.

    Mike

� If the teacher calls your house at night and the child is reading, the child 
� gets a prize (usually a coupon for free pizza or something).  

Does it matter *what* the child is reading? .... the Bible, for instance... ?

 - just a point of interest, though I would agree that it is an intrusion, 
and I would suspect that any normal teacher would find it intrusive on 
their own time also.  And they'd need the hide of a rhinoceros to blitz it 
through for long...

								Andrew

    No there are no restrictions on type of book.  If I wasn't so
    determined to fight this, I'd make sure that was the only book around
    when they called ;-)

 Here's one I came across recently..Odysee (sp?) of the Mind..what is
that all about?  My youngest son's school is apparantly into this 
program.




Jim

Odessey of the Mind is a great program.

It's basically a program for bright kids.  They are given "problems" to solve
and they have to, as a team, design and create a solution.  Such as create a
wind-powered vehicle, and the teams from various schools compete as to whose
solution works the best.

It is mainly centered around encouraging creative thinking and teamwork.  Folks
from our church who are very sensitive to any new-age stuff have been OM
coaches and have raved about the program.

Paul

    I agree with .21s explanation of "Odessey of the Mind" except for the
    part "It's basically a program for bright kids."
    
    This program is for any child who wants to be involved. YES, there is
    teamwork and such, necessary to complete the task... BUT most kids can 
    "design and create a solution, as a team"... 
    
    It is a great program that has been in operation here in Colorado
    Springs district 20 for about three (or more) years...
    
    Bob G.
    

    I've come across more info and you'll find a list of articles below.  
    ==========

    Beyond Traditional Outcome-Based Education by Willeam G. Spady and
    Kit J. Marshall.

    The HIGH SUCCESS PROGRAM on Outcome-Based Education by the same
    authors.

    On Outcome-Based Education: A Conversation with Bill Spady by Ron
    Brandt.

    Outcome-Based Education: Another Educational Bandwagon? by James
    M. Towers.

    Avoiding Hucksters, Fakirs, Gurus, and Other Academic Heretics: 
    Analyzing Outcome-Based Educational Programs by Thomas P. Ruff

    OBE, Effective Schools and NCA's OA:  Romance or Feud? by Robert L.
    Armstrong.

    Strengthening World Studies:  The Challenge of Conceptualization
    by Robert B. Woyach and Richard C. Remy.

    Can We Achieve Outcome-Based Education? by Sean A. King and Karen
    M. Evans.

    Restructuring to Achieve Outcomes of Significance for All Students
    by Kathleen A. Fitzpatrick.

    Outcomes:  Shifting the Grading Paradigm that Pervades Education
    by William G. Spady.

    It's Time to Take a Close Look at Outcome-Based Education by
    William G. Spady.

    The Politics of Assessment Reform:  Implications for Educators by
    Kathleen Plato.

    An Analogy for Reviewing Promotion/Retention And Minimum
    Competency Decisions by J. Michael Palardy.

    Innovation or Enervation?  Performance Assessment in Perspective
    by Gregory J. Cizek.

    A Response to Cizek by Grant Wiggins.

    The latest FamilyWatch from CWA has an interesting blurb in it about a
    recent Education Bill passed by the U.S. Senate.  It basically allows
    for the implementation of a national education board from which
    education standards can be dictated.  An alternate bill to this
    Education bill was one which would outlaw OBE and was shot down.

    A school here in California was given permission to develop its own
    curriculum between teachers and parents.  They have been given Xmillion
    dollars of a budget in which to do this.  It's a pilot....
    
    Nancy

    What irks me is that I'm fairly busy as it is with my own education and
    it would be nice if my kids' elementary education was safe.  But NO! 
    Now I have to go to PTA meetings and do some hand holding for a little
    peace of mind.

    >   -< don't get me started, Nancy >-
    
    open throttle, vroom vroom... a little kick start never hurt anybody!
    :-) :-) :-)

    Re: Note 236.27 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
>   open throttle, vroom vroom... 
    
    Modern cars with engine management (EFI) do not need throttle open or
    vroom vroom to start... watch the ozone layer... ;-) ;-)

The National Center for Home Education reports that the U.S. Department
of Education estimates the number of children educated at home to be at
least 350,000.  This is up from 15,000 ten years ago.

It is also estimated that 80% of the parents are conservative christians.

Source of information:

	-1  CRONIC::HOME_SCHOOLING note 106.5  7-DEC-1993
	-2  Michael Moy (QUEK::MOY) 
	-3  Richard Wasserman ([email protected])
	-4  [email protected]  4-DEC-1993
	-5  National Center for Home Education
	-6  U.S. Department of Education

So... if I take the U.S. population to be 200,000,000, and assume that children
ages 5-18 represent 1/6 of an evenly age-distributed population from ages 0-78,
then I figure that something on the order of 1 in 100 school-age kids are now
being taught at home instead of at an institution.  This would be compared to
something like 1 in 2000 ten years ago. 

    ...and this will be the next area of attack from the enemy via
    politicians.

    
    Well, I'm in the beginning stages of starting to think about
    home schooling.  So, for those of you that have home schooling
    homes.  What made you come to the decision?  Was it an 
    easy decision?  How in the world do you do it?  and How
    do your children feel about it?
    
    I asked Nathan yesterday what he thought about home schooling
    yesterday and all he said was, "Why?  Do I have to be home
    schooled?"  (in a kind of ambivalent tone) and he left it at
    that.
    
    
    Any pros and cons would be very helpful.
    
    Oh yeah.  And for the men whose wives are homeschooling.  Did
    you come to the decision together or she make the decision and
    bring it to you?  I am not sure how J. will feel about this.
    I thought I'd do a little research before I bring it up.
    
    Pam

        I don't have much to offer in this area and we had thought at one time
    of home schooling Bob Jr. and Billy... BUT, neither Peggy or I have
    what it takes to give them the *best* education.

    Also (and this isn't meant as a cut on those that do HS), it seems to
    me home schooling is counter to what we Christians should do, as
    disciples. We should be out among people, making attempts to change
    things for the better.. Seems to me home schooling is walking away from
    our descipleship/responsibility.
    
    Again, this is just my thoughts. I do understand the reasons for home
    schooling, but this kinda naws at me from time to time....
    
    

    
    Bob,  I know I have what it takes to be a teacher because
    I have a degree in Education and am a certified teacher
    of k-3rd grade.  So that's not a problem.
    
    But, in regards to dicipling others.  I don't think a child
    knows enough of the truth of the Bible to be a true diciple
    and I don't think they have what it takes to suffer the
    prosecution that comes to disciples - especially in the
    public school system.  Nathan does talk to his friends about
    Christ and what He did for us but he does not have answers 
    to all of the questions that he is asked.  Besides, he gets
    the opportunity to get that all of the time and I am beginning
    to think that being in the public school system is doing more 
    harm to him as opposed to the good he is doing the school.
    He is my first responsibility.  If I mess up now, there will
    be no evangelist to evangelize when he has the ability to
    do it properly.
    
    Well, just rambling.  Thanks for the input Bob.
    
    Pam

    We've been mulling over the same issue.  I'm sure Phoenix is more
    advanced in the way of the world (crime, etc.) than Colorado Springs. 
    My kids are exposed to things in the 4th grade that I never experienced
    until high school.  I'm trying to protect their innocence for as long
    as I can.  They have volunteer parents on the recess playgrounds to
    keep away drug pushers, child molesters, and gang recruiters.  This is
    a school for K-6 and we don't even live in a bad part of town!
    
    To give you an idea, I have a good friend that's a 5th grade teacher
    and he's even thinking of home schooling his own.  My neighbor came to
    us the other night because she is suffering from the same problems.  They 
    aren't believers either and they recognize the seriousness of the
    problems.  The other day, a classmate of her 3rd grade boy called and
    asked, "Do you not play with me because I'm g*y?  Why don't you like
    me?"  There's a girl in my oldest daughter's 4th grade class who has
    just been caught for the 3rd time in the ladies room, completely
    stripped of her clothes, and attacking/stripping/fondling another poor
    screaming girl.  My kids come to me and say, "Daddy, what's 'g*y'?"  
    
    I'm not ready for this aggravation.  Children this age are too innocent
    to be exposed to this stuff.  They don't need to know about it until
    they're older.  And it's a real crime for the parent(s) of these
    other children to bring them up in an environment like that.  These
    kids are far too young to even know about this lifestyle or even act
    out what they see.  They're not even sexually functional yet!
    
    Mike

Re: .31  (Pam)
    
>    home schooling.  So, for those of you that have home schooling
>    homes.  What made you come to the decision?  Was it an 
>    easy decision?  

See replies .1 and .2

>    How in the world do you do it?  

See reply .3

>    and How do your children feel about it?
>    
>    I asked Nathan yesterday what he thought about home schooling
>    yesterday and all he said was, "Why?  Do I have to be home
>    schooled?"  (in a kind of ambivalent tone) and he left it at
>    that.
    
I wouldn't bother asking them how they feel about it.  After all, you are
the discipler and they are the disciplees.  You are mature and they are not.
You are their parents and guardians, and they are under your stewardship and
authority.  If you have any questions about their ability to make wise
long-term decisions, ask your child if today he would like to eat only cake
and ice-cream for his meals.  Or, ask him if he would like to sleep in, skip
school, and play all day long.  I'm sure you get the idea.
    
>    Oh yeah.  And for the men whose wives are homeschooling.  Did
>    you come to the decision together or she make the decision and
>    bring it to you?  I am not sure how J. will feel about this.
>    I thought I'd do a little research before I bring it up.
    
I asked my wife if she would commit to homeschooling *before* I married her.
If she had said no, I wouldn't have asked her to marry me.


Re .33  (Pam)    

>    Bob,  I know I have what it takes to be a teacher because
>    I have a degree in Education and am a certified teacher
>    of k-3rd grade.  So that's not a problem.
    
You have what it takes because you are your son's mother, and you care for
him and love him more than any teacher in school.  You also know his
personality and his strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else.

In fact, I would be suspicious of your qualifications, *because* you have
graduated from a college of education.  The reason is because you have 
probably learned the same techniques that the majority of teachers in the
schools now practice, which is resulting in falling test scores and rising 
illiteracy.  The teachers don't know better, for they are only teaching the way
they were taught to teach.  (For example, do you know the difference between
the look-say approach to reading and phonics?)

>    But, in regards to dicipling others.  I don't think a child
>    knows enough of the truth of the Bible to be a true diciple
>    and I don't think they have what it takes to suffer the
>    prosecution that comes to disciples - especially in the
>    public school system.  Nathan does talk to his friends about
>    Christ and what He did for us but he does not have answers 
>    to all of the questions that he is asked.  Besides, he gets
>    the opportunity to get that all of the time and I am beginning
>    to think that being in the public school system is doing more 
>    harm to him as opposed to the good he is doing the school.
>    He is my first responsibility.  If I mess up now, there will
>    be no evangelist to evangelize when he has the ability to
>    do it properly.

I'm glad you recognize this.  So many people don't.

I don't mean to come down on you, but just to encourage you.  

Give it some serious thought.

Re: .32  (Bob)

See .4

Re: .34  (Mike)

>       -< this will probably be my oldest's last year in public school >-

What are you waiting for?  Pull them out now.

There is a homeschooling notesfile, by the way.  It is located at 
501CLB::HOME_SCHOOLING.

(How do you do that KP7 thing??)

    I understand all the arguements/issues surrounding home schooling. 
    
    Yes, we are their parents, BUT I feel I have fallen short of myown
    education, thus don't feel I would be able to teach them well enough.
    
    Don't get me wrong... I graduated high school, I've received additional
    education/training through the military and other schools. My education
    since high school has been specifically focused on my career with no
    degree, no advanced math skills to speak of... How could I possibly
    give my two boys a quality education.
    
    The rest of the reasons for home schooling I agree with. With all the
    trouble my two boys have gotten into, just by being there is argument
    enough for going with home schooling... BUT, I am concerned they would
    be short changed in the quality education...
    
    I'd be willing to home school if I could only be sure they'll get the
    proper skills/training. 
    
    I know, having faith that the Lord will provide is key, but...!
    
    Bob
    

    Bob, many parents in your position are able to home school find up to
    at least the jr. high level.  Either you or your spouse could take
    night courses to fill the gaps, or let them return to public/private
    school for high school.
    
    Mike

 I don't know about homeschooling, but this will be the last year my youngest
 son is in public school.  I'll have him in a Christian school next year.




Jim

    So, it sounds as though home schooling isn't for high school aged kids?
    
    If that be the case, it's to late for me to home school. Bob Jr. is in
    high school now (freshman) and Billy will be in high school in another
    year....
    
    I'll just have to pray for my boys and also pray the Lord will bring
    us back to New England.
    
    

    I'm sure you have Christian High Schools in your area.  My boss teaches
    part-time at Phoenix Christian High School.  He told me once that they
    commonly see parents bring their children there after home schooling
    them through junior high.
    
    Mike

    
    Pam,
    
>    Well, I'm in the beginning stages of starting to think about
>    home schooling.  So, for those of you that have home schooling
>    homes.  What made you come to the decision?  Was it an 
>    easy decision?  How in the world do you do it?  and How
>    do your children feel about it?

Do pray and struggle over this decision, Pam.  It is not one to be taken
lightly by any means.

We came to the decision because of our strongly held belief that our children
would be forever molded by the experiences, good and bad, of their pre-
adolescent lives. we believe strongly that sending a child into the world
(school) for any reason, however noble, before their values are firmly 
developed is like sending lambs to the slaughter (this is figurative).
some folks will say that we are to be salt and light.  this is a very poorly
thought-out and wrong position when applying it to a small child.  we also
decided that we could provide a better education to our children than they
would normally receive in a public school.  we did not believe we could afford
private Christian school nor did we have any convenient choices of schools in
our area.

Was it an easy decision for us?  relatively, yes. my wife cares for our
children in our home.  we made the decision prior to any of them being
school age so a lot of complexities were not present (like taking them out of
school).  we were also rather naive about what was entailed.  so our ignorance
made our decision simpler.

how do we do it?  we use a very good curriculum which is very structured. my
wife is well-organized and serious.  we agreed to let some of those things we
have cared about (like a very clean home) drop in relative importance.  we have
established relationships with other homeschooling families (actually, every
family in our church homeschools).  we have perservered when the going gets
tough.

how does my son feel about it?  he's never known anything else.  he likes
being at home but frankly dislikes alot of subjects.  and frankly my wife
and he have many very difficult days with lots of bickering over lessons and
attitude.  but we knew to some degree that it would be difficult.  and we
understand the alternative.

i agree with garth.  this is not something you necessarily ask your child
to participate in.  you must be certain of why you are doing it and be able
to clearly articulate that to him and others.  your extended family members, 
if they are like mine, will be among your harshest critics.

>    Oh yeah.  And for the men whose wives are homeschooling.  Did
>    you come to the decision together or she make the decision and
>    bring it to you?  I am not sure how J. will feel about this.
>    I thought I'd do a little research before I bring it up.
 
you are wise to do research.  no family can be successful without the ultimate
agreement of their parents.  and homeschooling has the potential to change your
lives in very apparent ways so this must be an agreement.  my wife and i came
to our conclusions together.  it could not work any other way.

i must share with you though a recent decision that elaine and i have made.
we have graham, who is 6.5 years, austin - 19 months, and next week eden -
a newborn.  my wife cannot successfully nurture (to our expectation) all of 
these children and homeschool graham.  it is our intent to place graham in
private Christian school next year.  indeed, if that cannot happen for several
reasons, he will go into our public schools.  we can do this (the public
school thing) because we do believe we have given him a firm foundation of 
Christian morals and virtues and we are fortunate to have many Christians
teaching in our schools.  it is still difficult for us to do it but we have
faith in God that our efforts will pay off (and this faith should also be
placed in God by those whose children are not homeschooled).

homeschooling can be very rewarding for all if the conditions are right.
seeing the innocense of my son is so fulfilling.  he has a terrific life in
that he does not carry the mental and spiritual baggage thrown upon many
publicly-schooled children.  he's happy and very mature.  he's a pleasure in 
general and "superior" in behavior and knowledge to non-homeschooled children.

jeff

>We came to the decision because of our strongly held belief that our children
>would be forever molded by the experiences, good and bad, of their pre-
>adolescent lives.

We've concerned ourselves with what happens in public schools.  Our kids are
publically schooled, and though the concern has caused us to talk about home
schooling, we've left them in.  The molding begins from birth.

Our kids are well-rooted in an openly Christian home.  They have a lot of
social exposure through the church organization, and for most of my kids, 
this is their primary source of social interaction.  (Note: the church doesn't
always provide better friends than people outside the church - who may be 
members of other churches - we're not the only one's, though it is sometimes
hard to believe).

I applaud these men and their families for home schooling according to
their convictions and I know their children will do well.  However, home
schooling is not a panacea for Christian children and not all whose children
are taught at public schools will wind up in the ash can.  Parenting in 
both cases plays a pivitol role in BOTH cases.  You can have good parenting
of publically schooled kids and rotten parenting of private and home schooled
kids.

Children ARE molded.  There ARE forces in the world (such as Alan Dershowitz)
who believe that parents should not be allowed to influence their own children
in the way they believe.  (What a hypocritical position!)  As parents, we need
to be ever attentive and actively involved in training a child in the way
that he should go.

Mark

    
    i can't quite understand the act of defending one's decisions when no
    offense is intended.  this happens so frequently when this topic is
    addressed.  but your approach to a response is better than most, 
    if not all, that i've encountered, mark.
    
    to add to another comment mark has made, there are poorly parented and
    educated homeschool children.  they are a very small minority, however.
    
    jeff

It's an emotive subject, Jeff.  Mark didn't come over to me as too
defensive, but I know that people on either side can very easily feel that
their position is being threatened just because reasons for the other side
are presented.  As Mark implied (if he didn't actually put it), you can
have good and bad teaching in either method.  

As well as individuals having different criteria and decision points 
which sway their decision, there are also different country, state, and 
even neighbourhood situations which ,ake the decision for each individual 
different.  As well as the personalities of the parents and children 
affected.  Even there, we should not be judging too easily. What we may
look on as a weakness, the LORD may know as a spiritual strength - a 
tenderness - where He can bring forth treasure...


						Andrew

    AND... dispite the what you may think, the percentage of poorly
    educated, publicly schooled children isn't that large a figure either.
    
    There are many successful results from both styles of schooling.
    
    I know my two boys have been in much trouble. I also know they've learn
    some valuable lessons from their experiences.. You might say they've
    taken their lumps.... I'm not sure if these are lessons they
    necessarily "have" to learn in life, but they've learned them. I have
    three great kids who've taken a beating and keep on believing. They are
    strong believers... We have taught them our moral values. Other than 
    a couple of sidetracks by the boys, they've always maintained those
    values...
    
    They are products of the public school system. I'm not always happy
    with that, but I do believe they've learned things that will help 
    them in the future.
    
    Bob
    

>    i can't quite understand the act of defending one's decisions when no
>    offense is intended. 

None taken, whatsoever, Jeff.  And I certainly was NOT commenting on
the frequency of poorly home schooled kids.  Rather, my point was to 
elaborate on the essential factor of good and faithful parenting,
regardless of whether one home schools, private schools, or public
schools their children.  I see benefits to each, but ultimately I
place the greater weight on the parenting and not the method of
schooling.  I merely intended to provide balance, not defense.

Mark

    
    well, bob, i didn't mean to offend you.  and you won't mind if i
    disagree with you, will you?
    
    jeff

    I'm not offended and wouldn't mind at all if you disagree. As stated
    many times, public school isn't for everyone nor is home schooling.
    
    

    Come to think about it, I'm not sure what point/issue you're 
    disagreeing with..
    
    

    Bob I disagree with your statement about there being a "small
    percentage" of poorly educated public school children.  
    
    I read the newspapers and often attend the School Board Meetings in my 
    area [even tho' my kids are in private school] and those meetings often
    address the academic testing results of students in "certain areas"
    versus students in "other areas". 
    
    It also has deemed that discipline is probably the culprit for lack of
    learning, not lack of education in many schools.

Re: .40  (Bob)
    
>    Yes, we are their parents, BUT I feel I have fallen short of myown
>    education, thus don't feel I would be able to teach them well enough.
>    
>    Don't get me wrong... I graduated high school, I've received additional
>    education/training through the military and other schools. My education
>    since high school has been specifically focused on my career with no
>    degree, no advanced math skills to speak of... How could I possibly
>    give my two boys a quality education.
    
I'd like to address this area:  The perception by many that they have not
the academic qualifications to teach their own children beyond a certain
level.

When your children are very young, most of what they learn is spoon-fed
instruction and training, which any parent can do.  Basic reading, writing
and arithmetic skills are an example.  But more important is the training
in self-discipline and character values that will lead to maturity and
independance on the part of the child.

As the child grows older, the parent becomes less of a teacher and more
of a coach, administrator, and overseer of the child's education.  This
is because the child has learned fundamental study skills and has been
instilled with the drive to learn on his own.  

There is not a subject which one who can read cannot gain knowledge about.
In fact, by the time a child reaches the high-school level, he ought to
be prepared to research and test the teachings of people who lecture on
various subjects.

So to summarize, I can't think of why a parent must exceed his child's
academic training in every or any area.

As I mentioned in my essays at the beginning of this note, there is *no*
correlation between the academic qualifications of parents and the 
academic achievement of their homeschooled children.

	Hi, all.  Thought I'd add my two cents here, just to relate our
experiences and decisions about our kids' educations.  My wife's two
daughters (my stepdaughters) have attended public schools exclusively,
until recently.  My wife says that all of these educational experiences
with public schools have been generally okay, except that some of the
schools did not "push" the kids to learn and excel in some subjects.

	My wife, principally, homeschooled Holly for the fourth grade
year, mainly because our neighborhood elementary public school got a new
principal with "politically-correct" aspirations to higher administrative
office.  Apparently, in order to make it appear to his superiors that his
school has no discipline problems, he has actively discouraged the teachers
from sending kids to him for discipline, and from using any punishment to
enforce discipline.  He has also made curriculum changes, so that
"politically-correct" propaganda is now taught in place of American
history, and ability grouping has been eliminated (everyone "learns" the
same thing in every subject at the same *slooooow* pace).  Thus, the kids
who behave like bullies, or have learning problems, have begun to run
the show at that school, and academic standards have seriously suffered.

	This year, for fifth grade, Holly has attended a Christian private
school, which has an affordable tuition and good academic and moral standards.
Holly does whine about working too hard, as she did during her home-school
year, but this is like "music to our ears".

	Robin is in eighth grade this year.  She attended our neighborhood
elementary public school before it went downhill, and has attended all
three grades (6, 7, 8) at our local public middle school, which is an
outstandingly good public school.  The teachers are encouraged to enforce
discipline, to group students according to need and ability, and even to
support and reinforce the parents in teaching morality and religion.
Even the academic standards are pretty good.

	Robin has been taking a geometry class at the nearby public high
school this year.  In this course, she is sometimes expected to perform
at a higher level than her grounding in math will allow, e.g. to develop
and write her own proofs to mathematical theorems.  But, again, it's like
"music to our ears", and I can sometimes help her with the math.

	Unless we inherit a fortune, and can enroll Robin in a Christian
high school across town with a good reputation, she will be attending the
aforementioned local public high school, and gradually taking more and more
classes at a junior college.

	Holly will most likely attend the same local public middle school
as Robin next year, unless there are drastic negative changes made to it.
If this happens, we can keep her in her current Christian school for at
least sixth grade.

	This is the third year for our son Jimmy at a very good Christian
preschool and prekindergarten at a local church.  He is learning a lot of
neat stuff at home and school about biology (animals, digestion) and physics
(magnets, etc.).  He avidly watches the kids' science shows (Beakman and
Bill Nye) and nature shows (Marty Stouffer only, because he doesn't overly
emphasize animals devouring other animals).  We do watch these shows with
the kids, and provide them with info to help counter the (relatively) small
amount of evolution dogma presented on those shows.  We plan to enroll him
next year at the same Christian elementary school Holly attended this year.
He is mentally ready to start learning to read, although he hasn't showed
a lot of interest in reading on his own until recently.  We will continue
reading to him and encouraging him to develop his own reading skills.  He
has also had music lessons for three and a half years from the girls' piano
teacher, who is also the Christian music director of a church.

	All of the kids love to play "educational" computer games.  We
have many of the game titles from "The Learning Company", and a few from
"Davidson".  We have one they like from "Ark" about the seven days of
creation.  We have a "Berenstain Bears Learn About Letters" game that
Jimmy will occasionally play, though he prefers "action/arcade" games.
This usually means he depends on his parents and sisters to answer the
problems that require reading and math skills.  We are interested in
hearing from you about any reading programs for DOS that you have found
to be effective.

	Bottom line for us is that, even though we have been fortunate
to enroll our kids in several good public schools, the U.S. public school
system is becoming less and less reliable, especially for Christian families.
So, we must take a very active role as parents to supplement and safeguard
our childrens' educations.  This is likely to involve home schooling and
Christian schooling for more and more kids as the situation continues to
deteriorate.

						Bob Sampson

    Well, I prayed about this for 2 weeks and asked the Lord to confirm
    that this is what he wanted us to do by opening J.'s heart and 
    mind t the idea.  Well, J. is adamently opposed to home schooling
    Nathan.  He says it is fine for other people but that Nathan 
    needs to learn how to get along with others.  I totally disagree
    but will go along with his decision.  
    
    I read in the book, "Survivor's Guid to Home Schooling", that if
    your husband does not want you to home school that God probably
    doesn't either.  
    
    I am disappointed.  Like someone else already said, I feel like I 
    am sending my little lamb off to the slaughter.  We are having a 
    lot of the same problems as in the previous reply:  bullies
    seem to be rewarded for bad behavior, teachers do not seem to
    discipline at all,  well behaved children are pretty much ignored
    and they are teaching to the lowest common denominator.
    
    Well, our solution is after-schooling and Nathan is pretty keen
    on the idea.  We will spend an hour after school each day doing
    extracurricular things.   We will have a different subject for
    each day:  science, american history, grammar, math and general
    interest (this month it is map reading).  Each day we will also
    have devotion time and the ever present reading at bed time.
    
    Hopefully this be enough to fill in the gaps.
    
    Thanks for all of your input everybody.
    
    Pam

    Sorry to hear about this Pam... but I agree if your husband is not for
    it, don't do it.  There is enough in life to divide homes without this
    struggle.  I pray God would give you an affordable Christian school in
    your area soon.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

Re .58  (Pam)

You've done the right thing, for your husband is head over your household, and
it would be hypocritical for you to usurp his authority. 

My wife and I will pray for you and your husband, that your husband's heart
would be turned from folly to prudence, and that you will be granted the
strength to persevere, despite this hardship.

In the meantime, do what you can to instill values in your son, teaching him
after school as much as you can, and doing what you can to counteract the
godless instruction he is getting.  You have a tough job ahead.

Do what you can to influence your husband's way of thinking, with respect and
propriety.  And keep your heart and your mind set on the goal.  Don't let the
present circumstances change your heart from what you know is right.

    .60
    
    My only concern with your note Garth is that you have placed a judgment
    on a situation that has no right and wrong.  It is not wrong for her
    son to a public school... it may not be what we deem as holy or
    righteous, but is not wrong.
    
    Perhaps God's plan for her young son requires the tribulation, struggle
    and grounding of his faith as he meets head on the adversaries.
    
    Perhaps God's plan is to raise a warrior for himself that has faced
    opposition and WILL make a difference in the last days before Christ
    returns to take his church.
    
    Let God be God...
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    I'm catching up on this string from Friday and today.
    
    Well said Nancy.  I think we need to be very careful as Christians not
    to judge others as less spiritual for following a different course.  I
    have perceived a spiritual pride on the part of some Christians-- 
    Attitudes like, "it's more spiritual to have numerous children" or
    "it's more spiritual to home school".  God has many different parts of
    his body.  They don't need to all follow the same course in life.  For
    some God might lead them to home school; for others to put their kids
    in private school; still for others to have their kids in public
    school.  We need to respect each others' ability to discern God's voice
    in regard to these very individual specific decisions.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    
    we must also not be afraid to admit that there are "best" things and
    lesser things, regardless of where we find ourselves in the spectrum. 
    even when we place graham in private or public school, we will have the
    courage to say that homeschooling is best for quality of education and
    parental oversight.  this may also be saying that we don't have the
    courage or conviction to follow through with our beliefs...but that is
    another story.
    
    i find it pretty astonishing that Christians can't come to terms with
    good, better and best any longer.  As with our culture, individualism
    seems to reign in the church.  its a tragedy.
    
    jeff

    .63
    
    That's because our God deemed it so, Jeff.  He fulfilled the law
    through the choice of Christ.  He made salvation and accountability 
    individual.
    
    

    
    nevertheless, we should be able to agree what is bad, good, better and
    best. at least some of the time on some important subjects, in
    generalizations.
    
    jeff

    >we will have the courage to say that homeschooling is best for quality of 
    >education and parental oversight.
    
    I would disagree with this statement.  It is best for some people but I
    also believe that public school is best for others.  There are a
    multitude of factors that must be weighed in making this decision.  A
    lot of it has to do with the individual school which the child attends
    and which teacher the child gets.  A lot also depends on the parent who
    will be doing the predominant amount of teaching.  What kind of
    personality does that person have?  How many other children are in the
    household?
    
    For us we go on a year by year basis.  We homeschooled our oldest (now
    9) in kindergarden.  He was very well prepared for 1st grade.  Not only
    that, but our middle son (now 7) was reading by the time he was four
    (from learning phonics).  There was also another person to consider
    here-- my wife.  Sheila was totally stressed out (she is a very high
    "I", or sanguin (sp?) personality).  We have been very fortunate to
    have our two oldest sons in public schools where the majority of
    teachers are christians.  We prayed about the teachers that they would
    get this year.  We even laid out a fleece that if our oldest didn't get
    one teacher in particular -- that we would home school.  He got the
    teacher we wanted.  If our situation was different, we would probably
    home school, but I believe that it is God's best for our kids to attend
    public school this year.
    
    Someone had mentioned earlier the evangelistic aspect.  I don't believe
    anyone should put there kids in a bad situation in order to share
    Christ with others.  At the same time, we have had an opportunity to
    reach kids (our childrens friends from school) for Christ, who
    otherwise would not have been affected.  We have had these kids in our
    home, taken them to AWANA, etc.
    
    Again, I think it is a very individual thing.  God deals with each of
    us.  I believe that it is overly simplistic to say that God has one
    BEST way for everyone when it is possible to live according to His
    Truth and take more than one route to the finish line.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing
    
    

    hmmm asking for change???

The decision of how/where to school your children is just part of the huge,
multi-faceted decision of how to balance protecting your children from the
world, and teaching them how to live in the world.  Mistakes can be made from
either end of the spectrum.

If I were to plant my tomato seeds outside in March in New Hampshire, they
wouldn't do too well.  In my climate at least, when they are young and small,
they need a protected environment, safe from extremes of temperature,
disease, and pests that would devour and destroy them.  Planted outside in a
March environment, they'd never make it.  The only thing to do is start them
inside.  But if I keep them inside too long, allowing them to develop only in
a protected environment, the shock of putting them outside may be too much
for them.  Having grown without wind, they will have grown too tall without
strength in their stems.  They aren't used to temperature variations, either.
When put outside, the shock may knock them over and kill them.  Even if it
doesn't kill them, it will severely weaken them.  In their weakened state,
they are easy prey for pests, not having the strength to fight them off. 
Even if they survive the pests, it will take them a long time to become
healthy again.

The trick is to start them inside, then put them outside at just the right
time, and to begin by exposing them to small doses of being outside, then
bringing them back into their sheltered environment.  This allows them to
thrive outside in a way better than planting them outside or keeping them
inside too long.

How to do this depends very much on the climate.  In a tropical climate, the
seeds could just be planted outside.  In an arctic climate, they couldn't be
put outside at all.  It also depends on the type of vegetable being planted. 
Peas THRIVE on being planted outside in March in New Hampshire.  It would be
foolish for a gardener in tropical Brazil to berate a gardener in Alaska for
starting his tomatoes indoors, and equally foolish for the Alaskan to berate
the Brazilian for planting them outdoors.  To say nothing of the peas.

Our kids are different, and have different levels of sensitivity.  And the
school climates that exist out there are different.  There are many kids that
could thrive on being Christ's light in many public school environments. 
There are some school environments that no sane parent would send even the
boldest kids into, there are some school environments that are nearly
tropical for christian kids.

I will agree that the climate is generally colder out there than most of us
are willing to believe, though.  I'd agree that there are a lot of christian
kids in public schools that would do much better in home schooling.  But I'm
not willing to make any "The only right decision" proclamations about this
particular issue. 

Paul

    All this talk about planting, seeds, harvesting, wind blowing, strong
    stems, makes me hungry for green beans! :-)
    
    Good anology Paul!
    
    Nancy

Pam,

I was talking with my wife about your situation at dinner this evening, and as
I was talking, she/we made the brilliant observation (I can be pretty dense)
that you were a Digital employee.  She said something like, "Wait a minute. 
If she is writing notes in a Digital notesfile then she must be an employee,
unless she is logging in under her husband's account."  I said, "No, her
account name is 'P_So', and she refers to her husband as 'J.'"  She said,
"Well, there you have it.  It probably comes down to a financial issue.  She
would have to quit work to homeschool her son, and her husband doesn't want to
lose the income." 

Well, my wife does quickly jump to conclusions.  What have you to say about
this?

Jeff,

You know, the following from .7 has been bothering me for over a year now:

>    I agree with Garth, less vehemently however.
    
And now I see from .45,
    
>i must share with you though a recent decision that elaine and i have made.
>we have graham, who is 6.5 years, austin - 19 months, and next week eden -
>a newborn.  my wife cannot successfully nurture (to our expectation) all of 
>these children and homeschool graham.  it is our intent to place graham in
>private Christian school next year.  indeed, if that cannot happen for several
>reasons, he will go into our public schools.  

And from .63,

>    even when we place graham in private or public school, we will have the
>    courage to say that homeschooling is best for quality of education and
>    parental oversight.  this may also be saying that we don't have the
>    courage or conviction to follow through with our beliefs...but that is
>    another story.
    
Now, why is it that we have families like the Farris family, with him a 
full time lawyer fighting legal battles all across the country, and she at
home, with 9 kids, all homeschooled?  Or consider the McKim family recently
featured on the cover of _The Teaching Home_, with, what was it, 13 kids, all
homeschooled and he drives a truck for a living?  In fact, family after family
featured on the cover tends to be large. 

In general, it seems that homeschool families tend to be large, probably for
two reasons.  First, they view children as assets rather than liabilities in
the grand scheme of things, and second, convictions about homeschooling
probably correlates well with a dim view towards contraception, since both
involve a particular outlook regarding God's providence towards those who trust
in Him. 

I am compelled to believe that your having 3 kids doesn't necessitate putting
one of them in an institution.  So why your decision?

I know I'm getting into presumption, but I wonder if there is something going
wrong at home, for you to be about to break under a load of 3.

Now, this is total presumption on my part, but I'm bringing the following
up because maybe someone else can identify with it, even if it doesn't apply
to you: 

Did/do you demand-feed your children as babies, or put them on a schedule?  How
many weeks after birth was it that you had them sleeping through the night?  Do
you "baby-proof" and "child-proof" your house so that they don't get into
trouble?  Do you let them have free run of the house all day long, or are their
daily routines highly structured, with tight boundaries imposed?  Are your
children characterized by first-time obedience, or do you have to threaten and
repeat yourselves, "count to 3", or even manipulate the situation to get them
to obey?  What do you do when they don't obey?  Do you impose corporal
punishment as described in Proverbs, or do you do the "time-out" thing or "take
away privileges"?  If your child gets into something he shouldn't, do you
restrain/remove him from the situation or tell him "don't..." and expect him to
obey? 

My wife and I have been learning all these things the hard way, and are 
acutely aware of the impact we are having on our children's character, even
at their young ages.  We see that we will only be successful at homeschooling
our children if they are manageable and well disciplined.  It is hard, because
we have almost no role models in our christian friends who are further along
in this child-raising business than we are.  

In any case, you are clearly not happy with the prospect of your oldest being
educated in an institution.  You know that home education is the better choice,
but there is some obstacle in the way of managing three.  What is it?  You've
got to find it.

And when and if you find it, tell us, so we too can learn from it.

    Garth,
    
    Regarding the money issue.  I only work part time, from 6 am to 10 am
    so, in order to home school I would not need to quit work. We could
    simply start at 10:30 when I get home.  J. is home in the day time
    so there is no need for daycare while I work.  This would not effect
    J. in any way because he sleeps until I get home anyway and Nathan
    does not need any particular supervision when he wakes up.  He plays
    quietly in his room.  
    
    Actually, J.  didn't even think about it when I spoke to him
    about this.  He basically went on a rampage about how Nathan is
    an only child. (J. is the youngest of six)  He thinks Nathan is
    spoiled and thinks the world revolves around him and that I 
    shelter him too much.  I don't think I do but sometimes we don't
    see our own actions very clearly.  He is afraid that Nathan will
    be that plant that was raised indoors and will quickly die in 
    the cold outdoor climate.  
    
    I know that God answers prayer and He has worked many miracles
    in our lives.  He has done things that I thought could never be
    done.  He has opened the hearts of family and friends who said
    they would never be a Christian.  He can do this too if it is His
    will.  I prayed for Him to work through J. as a confirmation that
    His will for my family was home schooling.  J.  does not want our
    family to home school I think this is the Lord's word on the 
    subject.  He is saying, "Not now."  That does not mean that this
    will not change in the future.  I will continue to pray about it.
    
    I really feel that God has big plans for my son.  Nathan loves
    the Lord with an open heart and wants to serve Him.  God is in
    control and He will work wonders, whether Nathan is home
    schooled or in public school.  I will do my best to instill
    values and morals in Nathan and I will continue to grow in
    the Lord with my child.
    
    Hope this clears it up a little,
    Pam
    
    
                         

>Did/do you demand-feed your children as babies, or put them on a schedule?  

We demand fed Graham for several weeks.  when we realized it simply was not
working, God provided an answer - our 97 year old pediatrician (she was 91 then)
who quickly straightened us out on this subject.  Graham and then the rest of
our children were placed on a schedule - demand feeding went in the toilet
where it belongs.

>How many weeks after birth was it that you had them sleeping through the night?

two to four weeks.

>Do you "baby-proof" and "child-proof" your house so that they don't get into
>trouble?  

yes.

>Do you let them have free run of the house all day long, or are their
>daily routines highly structured, with tight boundaries imposed?  

there is no such thing as free run of the house at our house.  we are very
disciplined in this area.

>Are your children characterized by first-time obedience, or do you have to 
>threaten and repeat yourselves, "count to 3", or even manipulate the situation 
>to get them to obey?  What do you do when they don't obey?  Do you impose 
>corporal punishment as described in Proverbs, or do you do the "time-out" 
>thing or "take away privileges"?  

our children are characterized by first-time obedience, generally.  we do not
threaten nor have we ever used a "time-out".  we follow the wisdom of Proverbs.

>If your child gets into something he shouldn't, do you
>restrain/remove him from the situation or tell him "don't..." and expect him to
>obey? 

generally, after instruction, we tell him "don't" and expect obedience.

>My wife and I have been learning all these things the hard way, and are 
>acutely aware of the impact we are having on our children's character, even
>at their young ages.  We see that we will only be successful at homeschooling
>our children if they are manageable and well disciplined.  It is hard, because
>we have almost no role models in our christian friends who are further along
>in this child-raising business than we are.  

would you be interested in the book my pediatrician has written?  i do not
particularly agree with her concerning discipline but her practices around
feeding, eating, sleeping, etc. are incredibly wise and effective.

>In any case, you are clearly not happy with the prospect of your oldest being
>educated in an institution.  You know that home education is the better choice,
>but there is some obstacle in the way of managing three.  What is it?  You've
>got to find it.

>And when and if you find it, tell us, so we too can learn from it.

part of the consideration for us is having very young children and Graham, the
disparity in ages. part of the consideration for us is the time we desire to
nurture our younger children - and this in some small part is influenced by
the death of our two-year old, Caroline.  part of the consideration for us is 
my wife's temperament.  part of the consideration for us is my extensive 
absence from home due to work-related travel. part of the consideration for us
are the other non-educational responsibilities we have as a family (e.g. 
caring for parents).  part of the consideration is the fact that graham can
get an adequate education in a traditional school setting. part of the
consideration is the commitment we have put into practice and intend to
continue in training our children in the way they should go.

we are a growing family, spiritually and physically.  we may change our minds 
on many subjects with new developments and as we grow in the grace and 
knowledge of God.

jeff

	How does one get a 2.5 year old to listen the first time ?

	Mail is an acceptable media for a response...

	Karen

    .75
    
    Really depends on the child and the parent.  My oldest listened the
    first time... after a few disciplinary actions.
    
    My youngest still challanges my authority.

�                <<< Note 236.75 by CNTROL::JENNISON "No 'ell" >>>
�	How does one get a 2.5 year old to listen the first time ?
�	Mail is an acceptable media for a response...

? they'd have to be able to log on .... read .... know some rudimentary DCL ?
						;-) apologies ;-)


But seriously, try mixing the command with something they wouldn't want to
miss occasionally.  That might be bribery, but a 2� year old can respond to
it ... sometimes.  As well as the corollary, where the condition of
disobedience is highlighted, but that must be fulfilled sharply as
promised, or afterwards they'll tend not to believe anything they don't
want to believe. 

There are phases when a child is testing its range of command, and has to
be taught instant obedience, or it will continue to push further into 
forbidden territory, progressively losing respect, trust and moral balance.

The younger they are when they learn obedience, the less painfully it has 
to be administered, and the better the lesson is learned - future trials of 
strength are mere tests by comparison, as they know they can trust your 
word.

Ugh!  Looking back at the top of my reply, it doesn't look as though I was 
kept in my place nearly enough as a child.  Still, I'll leave it there to 
work on my humility ....  You'll understand if this reply mysteriously 
disappears some time... ;-)

							Andrew

	Thanks for your replies, here and in mail.  

	Emily is very good, but has lately been requiring 3 tries
	to get a response (usually with my voice increasing each time :-( )

	This past week, I've been telling her that she must listen the first
	time or will get a time-out.  This has resulted in ZERO time-outs
	all week.  She has been complying on the first try, but I was
	concerned it wouldn't last.  With Andrew nearing the walking stage,
	she seems to vie for attention, and the testing seems to have
	increased.  I'm sure this is not at all unusual for a 2 year old,
	but I want to lay a solid groundwork now for the future.

	Thanks again,
	Karen

Re: .73, .74  (Pam, Jeff)

Well, so much for my fishing expedition.  My wife and I never were good at
jumping to conclusions.

Re: .78  (Karen)

"Time-out"s are like the prison system.  Neither produce lasting results.

I would highly recommend _What the Bible Says About Child Training_, by 
J. Richard Fugate.  In fact, let me know and I'll send you a copy at my
expense.

I appreciated Paul's response using tomato seeds.

Not every case can be generalized into good, better, and best until we 
can narrow the complexities of this issue into manageable pieces.  Then 
we might say, under these circumstances, home schooling might be best.

We take a close interest in our children's public schooling and do not
find it to be godless instruction in every case.  And we have indeed 
found some godless instruction and moved to ensure that our values are
protected in the children.  Some of the instruction that my children
have received has been God-like at times, too.

In my church, I know of several persons who are employees of the public
school system, working their Christian witness in the world.  Yes, they
have contraints put on them and sometimes will venture out of them to
give a badly needed hug or whatever. 

I think there are very good reasons to home school and some conditions
where home schooling should not prevail, or at least is not a negative
option; that is, it will not have overall detrimental results.

I think a Christian in good standing can have children in public schools
without guilt of causing their child to be short changed somehow.  But,
as Paul illustrated, climate and circumstance may determine the best
course for eachparent to take with regard to schooling their children.

Mark

	Thanks, Garth.

	So far, the threat of a time-out has been enough.  We started
	them around age 1.  Emily went through a round of them then, 
	and since has responded to just the warning.  My problem was
	I was giving her three warnings.  

	I very much appreciate the book recommendation - sort of along
	the lines of what I was looking for (so why didn't I say so ?).

	I also very much appreciate your offer, but the recommendation
	is enough - I'm sure I'll find it at my local bookstore.

	Thanks again!
	Karen

	PS - In the car at lunchtime, Emily was pulling on Andrew's
	strings (the ones that tie his hood on his head)!  I told her
	to let go, and she did immediately.  I praised the dickens out
	of her, and told her she made me smile by obeying so well.  She
	then had the biggest grin on her face for the rest of the ride ;-)

	

    I just wanted to add to what's already been said about discipline &
    obedience.  I think its important to always discipline in love (not
    anger).  Also to major on the majors and minor on the minors.  The
    bible says that we are not to exasperate our children.  We need to give
    them freedom to grow (within the bounds of their maturity).
    
    I bring this up because my wifes family came to mind when reading some
    of the earlier responses.  My wife's dad was a strict disciplinarian. 
    When he said "frog" all the kids would jump.  But their relationships
    became very competitive as they perceived that their father's acceptance  
    of them was based on their performance.  Kids need discipline, but they 
    need an even greater quantity of affection.  They need to be hugged on and 
    kissed.  They need to know we love and accept them, not because of their 
    performance, but because they are ours.
    
    Just wanted to add some balance to the equation.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

The University of Minnesota did a study on the effectiveness of four
common parenting styles. The researchers found two factors to be the
most influential in parenting: Parental Control and Parental Support.

o  Parental Control is the ability of parents to manage a child's be-
   havior.

o  Parental Support is the ability to make a child feel loved.

The following chart that shows the major parenting styles. It is likely
that your parents didn't fall into the extreme corners of this chart
but fell somewhere where all the dots represent the various mixes of
support and control. You can determine how you feel your parents did
at parenting by assessing how much support they gave you and how much
control they had over you. The mix of the two helps to plot a point
on the chart. More difficult is assessing ourselves as parents. Where
do we fall in terms of supporting our children, and in terms of con-
trolling our children?

                                High Support
      |-------------------------------------------------------------|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |..............................|..............................|
   L  |..............................|..............................|  H
   o  |..............................|..............................|  i
   w  |..............................|..............................|  g
      |.......Permissive.............|.......Authoritative..........|  h
      |.........Parenting............|.........Parenting............|
   C  |..............................|..............................|
   o  |..............................|..............................|  C
   n  |..............................|..............................|  o
   t  |..............................|..............................|  n
   r  |-------------------------------------------------------------|  t
   o  |..............................|..............................|  r
   l  |..............................|..............................|  o
      |..............................|..............................|  l
      |..............................|..............................|
      |.......Neglectful.............|.......Authoritarian..........|
      |.........Parenting............|.........Parenting............|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |..............................|..............................|
      |-------------------------------------------------------------|
                                Low Support

You can find the full text of this information in a note on parenting
somewhere in this conference.

Re: .74  (Jeff)

Well, from the looks of your response, I certainly can't find fault in your
management of your children at home.

But from your response it sounds like you are letting circumstances rule over
what you know is best for Graham. 

Don't fall into the trap that Solomon did.  He ruled his kingdom in
righteousness and saw peace and prosperity.  But in his later years, he turned
to idols.  Why?  The scripture says that he married unbelieving wives who then
led him astray.  We don't know the circumstances that led him to marry them,
but we know that he was foolish to yoke himself up with unbelievers.  Remember
what the scripture says:

	"Do not be yoked together with unbelievers.  For what do righteousness
	and wickedness have in common?  Or what fellowship can light have with
	darkness?  What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?  What does
	a believer have in common with an unbeliever?  What agreement is there
	between the temple of God and idols?  For we are the temple of the
	living God.  As God has said:  'I will live with them and walk among
	them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.' 'Therefore,
	come out from them and be seperate, says the Lord.  Touch no unclean
	thing, and I will receive you.'"  (2 Cor 6:14-17)

Now, I assume you have a believing wife.  But your child will not necessarily
have a believing teacher.  Or, regardless of the teacher's faith, he will be
yoked up with "The Kids His Age", to use Boyer's phrase from this month's _The
Teaching Home_.  (Boyer and his wife have 12 homeschooled kids.)

I cannot believe that a 6.5 year-old is ready to enter the mission field as
an evangelist, prepared to give a defense for the hope that is in him to the
adults and children he meets at random.  I can believe that yoking him up with
unbelievers can lead to him shipwrecking his faith.

I am convinced that if you establish your desire to homeschool as a conviction,
as it ought to be, rather than as a preference, that God will see to the
circumstances and considerations that you mention.  Many a man of God in the
scriptures committed to doing what was right even though the circumstances
seemed humanly impossible to them at the time.  Certainly your plight couldn't
be worse than theirs, humanly speaking.

Is there anything else I can say to persuade you?

    re .86
    
    Sarcasm on?
    
    I believe that like you intimated, the fact that Solomon had multiple wives
    and concubines had negative implications.  I have a hard enough time
    just dealing with one relationship, much less hundreds 8^).
    
    Bing

    Many of Solomon's wives were pagans.  Marriage has a spiritual aspect
    that can strengthen the relationship when its commonly bonded, or will
    destroy you if it isn't.
    
II Corinthians 6:14
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath
righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with
darkness?

II Corinthians 6:15
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth
with an infidel?

II Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of
the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I
will be their God, and they shall be my people.

II Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and
touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

II Corinthians 6:18
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the
Lord Almighty.

Even more pertinent to the Solomon situation is Deuteronomy 18:17,18-20

These give the instructions for the kingship - how the king should behave.
Verse 17 includes :
 "He must not take manyu wives or his heart will be led astray."
	- exactly what did happen to Solomon.

Verses 18-20,which he should know as part of his inaugurative instruction 
from the priests knocks any other excuse out from under his feet :

 "When he takes the throne of the kingdom, he is to write for himself on a 
  scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites. 
  It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that 
  he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the 
  words of this law and these decrees and not consider himself better than 
  his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left."


He broke the other instructions in that chapter too.  Heartbreaking, when 
you consider the spiritual heights the nation had reached, and the material 
blessings and spiritual privileges Solomon received, that he should fall so 
far and so soon... 


					God bless
							Andrew

Re: .88  (Mike)

Your repeat of the very same passage that I quoted in .85 makes me wonder
if you read .85, which is where I started the Solomon/wives thread.

In consideration of your note in .34 describing the problems in your son's
school, I'll ask again, as I did in .37, why you don't just pull him out now.
Clearly, you are beyond considering the theory and principles that I argued in
.0-.4, since you are convinced that your son is in a bad situation.

So why don't you act now?

    Sorry Garth, I didn't see .85.  Too many NEXT UNSEEN's.
    
    As for my children in school, we're praying about it.
    
    Mike

    	Garth --
    
    	I've just read through this whole string since Pam's resurrection
    	of the discussion.  I really expected that I was going to do
    	some replying to Pam, but instead I am moved to speak to you.
    
    	We homeschool.  We see it as proper for us, and what our kids
    	need at this time.  From time to time we have put one or more
    	of our 4 into the public school system, and will probably do
    	so again depending on the circumstances.
    
    	As I homeschooler I found some of your participation in this
    	discussion to be uncomfortable for me.  I think you are a bit
    	pushy, and while I can personally apply what you are saying,
    	I think you can be overwhelming to those who are not as fervent,
    	and you may actually be doing a disservice to the concept of
    	homeschooling!  The best way I can describe my reaction (out
    	of sympathy for those whom you are trying to "convince") is
    	the way I feel when being pressured by a vacuum cleaner
    	salesman.  I think you need to step back and give others some
    	room to make their own decisions.  Don't smother them.  Doing
    	that will only cause them to recoil and run away.  Let me
    	provide some examples:
    
.60>My wife and I will pray for you and your husband, that your husband's heart
>would be turned from folly to prudence, and that you will be granted the
>strength to persevere, despite this hardship.
    
    	Here you seem to have made the judgement that anything other than
    	what you see as right is folly.  You also deem her husband's
    	recalcitrance as "hardship".

.72>Now, why is it that we have families like the Farris family, with him a 
>full time lawyer fighting legal battles all across the country, and she at
>home, with 9 kids, all homeschooled?  Or consider the McKim family recently
>featured on the cover of _The Teaching Home_, with, what was it, 13 kids, all
>homeschooled and he drives a truck for a living?  In fact, family after family
>featured on the cover tends to be large. 
    
    	You are laying an unfair guilt trip on others here by comparing
    	them to the superstars of the homeschool movement.  Everyone is
    	in a different place.  Everyone has different motivations, energy
    	levels, ambitions.

.72>I am compelled to believe that your having 3 kids doesn't necessitate putting
>one of them in an institution.  So why your decision?
    
    	More pressure salesmanship.

.85>I am convinced that if you establish your desire to homeschool as a conviction,
>as it ought to be, rather than as a preference, 
    
    	"As it ought to be"?  According to whom?  Declaring ought-to-be's
    	is more of what I'm uncomfortable with.  Yor entries would be much
    	less overwhelming if you would simply identify your opinions more
    	often rather than state them as if they were gospel.
    
.85> Is there anything else I can say to persuade you?
    
    	Speaks for itself.
    
.90> I'll ask again, as I did in .37, why you don't just pull him out now.
> ... So why don't you act now?
    
    	How do you feel when the car dealer says that you have to buy
    	the car today, or the deal might not be available tomorrow?
    	"Buy it now!  You just can't beat this deal!"  More times than
    	not such tactics encourage me to put on my coat and walk out
    	the door.  Or kick the encyclopedia salesman out of my house.
    	Most people are not so impulsive that they can comfortably
    	do it NOW.  People need to really think it over and work out 
    	the details before leaping -- especially when they are leaping
    	into a countercultural concept that involves the future of
    	their children.  If they can't yet see the tremendous benefits
    	that you and I have witnessed, they have no basis for taking
    	such a leap.
    
    	So, Garth, I ask you to think about giving some room and not 
    	smothering those who are considering this idea.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

Re: .92  (Joe)
    
Let me start off by pointing out that a few of your statements about me are
self-refuting in principle and -- I hate to use this word, but -- hypocritical.
Your opinion is that I am merely stating my opinions.  You are a bit intolerant
of my intolerance.  You are putting a bit of pressure on me to not pressure
others. 

With regard to my entries, clearly I am being pushy.  I can't deny that.  But
since it is a conviction of mine that homeschooling is catagorically the best
way to go, and that it is irresponsible for believers to put their kids in a
public school, then how can I say or do otherwise? 

From the following statement, I can assume that homeschooling for you is not
the result of a conviction of principles, but a preference that depends on
particular circumstances:

>    	We homeschool.  We see it as proper for us, and what our kids
>    	need at this time.  From time to time we have put one or more
>    	of our 4 into the public school system, and will probably do
>    	so again depending on the circumstances.
    
I would urge you to reconsider.

Your analogy to a used car salesman is fair in regard to zeal, but unfair
in regard to motive.  Keep in mind that I have nothing to gain from any other
person's decision in the matter.  The salesman has his own interests and 
profit in mind, whereas I have the interests and profit of others in mind.

And isn't this the way it should be?  Shall I not apply the golden rule, and
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?  There are a great many
issues in which I wish that someone had cornered me and beaten me over the head
with the bible.  

I believe the scriptures are clear.  The upbringing of our children is our
responsibility as parents, and we should not yoke our children together with 
unbelievers, as bad company corrupts good character.  Therefore, I believe I
can speak with confidence on the subject. 

I will admit, however, that tact is not one of my strong points, particularly
in notes.  You are not the first to exhort me regarding the way I am coming
across.  Perhaps some of my statements and approach include some "shock value"
-- a bit of rhetoric to get people's attention.  I don't know that this is 
necessarily good.

In any case, you have given me some food for thought, and I do appreciate your
concern. 

    >                     -< the way I'm coming across >-
    
    Been there.  Done that.  
    
    MM  ;-)

    .94
    
    ME TOO!!

>Let me start off by pointing out that a few of your statements about me are
>self-refuting in principle and -- I hate to use this word, but -- hypocritical.
>Your opinion is that I am merely stating my opinions.  You are a bit intolerant
>of my intolerance.  You are putting a bit of pressure on me to not pressure
>others. 
    
    	I see no hypocrisy at all.  I liberally laced that reply with
    	"I think" and "It seems to me" and "my reaction was..."
    
    	I think it was perfectly clear that I was giving my opinion.
    
    	At least,  I think...  :^)

>since it is a conviction of mine that homeschooling is catagorically the best
>way to go, and that it is irresponsible for believers to put their kids in a
>public school, then how can I say or do otherwise? 
    
    	By making it more clear that it is YOUR conviction and not gospel.

>From the following statement, I can assume that homeschooling for you is not
>the result of a conviction of principles, but a preference that depends on
>particular circumstances:
>
> ...
>
>I would urge you to reconsider.
    
    	Homeschooling *IS* a matter of convictions.  However in some
    	things for us practicality outweighs idealism.  Now if you
    	disagree with that statement, recall that I already stated
    	in .92 that believe everyone is different, and that we all
    	have different ambitions, drives, convictions, etc.  This is
    	where my wife and I are.  You can choose to disagree with that,
    	or rejoice in whatever level of alliance you can still draw from 
    	me in spite of our differences on some matters.  I hope you can
    	see that we are closer in ideology than we are apart.

>Your analogy to a used car salesman is fair in regard to zeal, but unfair
>in regard to motive.  
    
    	Agreed.  However (as I said in .92) not too many people share the 
    	motivational experiences as we homeschoolers.  While I understand 
    	(and share) your motive, I am sensitive to those who are seemingly 
    	recoiling from a "hard sell" here.
    
>Keep in mind that I have nothing to gain from any other
>person's decision in the matter.  The salesman has his own interests and 
>profit in mind, whereas I have the interests and profit of others in mind.
    
    	I suspect we have quite a bit to gain in more general acceptance
    	of the educational path we have chosen for our children.  So I
    	disagree that we have nothing to gain.
    
    	Therefore the reason that I am addressing you here is that we
    	have much to LOSE by overwhelming people who are considering this 
    	course of action.  If we turn them off, if they see us with the 
    	same disdain that non-Christians hold for evangelists, then we are
    	doing ourselves mor harm than good.  We have much to lose or gain
    	in the way we conduct ourselves in these matters.

>And isn't this the way it should be?  Shall I not apply the golden rule, and
>"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?  There are a great many
>issues in which I wish that someone had cornered me and beaten me over the head
>with the bible.  
    
    	The key is in being able to recognize when that "beating" crosses
    	the line from remedial to harmful.  We will gain more "converts"
    	to the concept by lovingly welcoming them instead of beating them
    	over the head or kidnapping them into the fold.
    
    	I'd also venture to guess that you wish you had been beaten only
    	now in retrospect, and that had the beating occurred at the time
    	of the incidents, you may very well have been turned away.
    
>I believe the scriptures are clear.  The upbringing of our children is our
>responsibility as parents, and we should not yoke our children together with 
>unbelievers, as bad company corrupts good character.  Therefore, I believe I
>can speak with confidence on the subject. 
    
    	So by this can I assume you would place a Christian school
    	on equal footing with homeschool on this point?

>Perhaps some of my statements and approach include some "shock value"
>-- a bit of rhetoric to get people's attention.  I don't know that this is 
>necessarily good.
    
    	Perhaps I was moved to respond because I saw in your notes 
    	my own behavior and my tendency to do exactly the same thing
    	at times!  :^)
    
    	Peace to you, bro Garth!
    
    	Joe

    >>I liberally laced
    
    Joe is a liberal
    Joe is a liberal
    
    :-)

	Nancy, I don't think you got that Right. :-)

    Sure I do!

    SNARFFFFFFfffffffffffffffff

Re: .96  (Joe)

I'll let you have the last word on our discussion about the discussion.  The
key issues are whether I am in fact right, and whether I am prudent in the
way I present things.  Only the facts will resolve the former, and I can't
speak with confidence on the latter, so I'll just have to try to do the best
I can.

>    	So by this can I assume you would place a Christian school
>    	on equal footing with homeschool on this point?

As I said in my introduction, in .0,

>This is my first attempt in notes at putting together an apologetic for
>parental responsibility in educating their own children.  In the replies that
>follow, I argue that public schooling is the wrong choice, and home education
>is the right choice, with private christian schools somewhere in the middle. 

Christian schools fall into a whole range of catagories.  At one end of the
spectrum we have institutions that are little different than their public
school counterparts, except for the label "Christian school" that they apply to
themselves, for one reason or another.  At the other end of the spectrum might
be a cooperative and intimate arrangement between a group of parents who have
chosen to share responsibilities and work together towards the education of
their children, calling themselves a "Christian school", for one reason or
another.  In fact, in some states a homeschooling family must register
themselves as a private christian school, as a technicality of the law. 

Likewise, there are better vs. worse public schools, and surely there are some
public schools out there that are better than some christian schools out there.

    	Garth --
    
    	I agree with you in your assessments.  I also agree with so 
    	very much of your initial entries when you started this topic.
    	The facts as I understand them *do* support you.
    
    	My sole purpose in addressing you was concerns over your
    	"delivery" of your message.  I hope I didn't come across as
    	too overbearing myself.  I tried to do it in as friendly and	
    	loving manner as I could.  I'm not sure that I could have
    	delivered my concerns in any other way.
    
    	What's done is done.  Let's move forward from here in support
    	of each others' (and anyone else's) choices to partake of this 
    	countercultural educational method!