Conference yukon::christian_v7

I have extracted the note and will look at it, though I am no expert, and some
in here would be the first to admit it.  However, I would like to comment on
the opening.

"The earth has an orbiting satellite called the moon."
"The earth does not have an orbiting satellite called the moon."

Two diametrically opposed views that on the surface cancel each other out.
One might point to the sky and say "see? there it is" while the other 
looks and responds, "No, I do not see it.  It is not there."

On new moon and clouded nights, the other may "prove" that the moon 
does not exist by supporting evidence, cancelling out the supporting
evidence of the illusion on clear nights.  "It is some reflection or 
some man-made projection."

To such opposing views, going to the moon may not be sufficient proof
to someone who will not believe after they've assimilated another 
conclusion based on the "evidence" they've accumulated.

Mark

I'll try to get to the note sometime today.

 To start, who is Jim Leppard (named as the author), and what is his
 background.

 



Jim

    From a quick reading of this, I surmise that the author is Jewish, from
    the constant "proofs" that messianic prohesy is about the nation Israel
    rather than the person Jesus.
    
    Bo

    Loosely quoted from Corinthians as I don" have my Bible here,
    "these things are Spiritually discerned and the man without the Spirit
    cannot discern the things of the Spirit.
    
    Therefore I wouldn't get too involved in hashing this thing out. Those
    of us that are in Christ have revelation on this topic and the rest can
    argue these diametrically opposed views forever.
    
    Orval
    

    Re: .3  ICS::KAUFMANN "Life is short; pray hard"              

  >>  From a quick reading of this, I surmise that the author is Jewish, from
  >>  the constant "proofs" that messianic prohesy is about the nation Israel
  >>  rather than the person Jesus.
    
    Isaiah 53:6

    "All we like sheep have gone astray.  Each has turned to his own way, but 
    The Lord laid upon Him the iniquity of us all. "
   
    A few verses later.

    vs. 10 - "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; he hath put Him to grief.
    when thou shalt make Him a sin offering..."

    The Book of Leviticus makes it clear that a Sin Offering must be without
    blemish.  This alone negates ANY possibility whatsoever that the nation 
    of Israel is the messiah.  In fact, the book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel,
    and others condemn Israel because of their blemishes (sin and iniquity)

    -Jack

>"I have examined all the passages in the New Testament quoted from 
>the Old, and so-called prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, and I 
>find no such thing as a prophecy of any such person, and I deny 
>there are any."
>	-- Thomas Paine (1925), p. 206


  Gee,  I wonder if this guy has come across any new evidence since
then to make him change his mind?

>	-- Thomas Paine (1925), p. 206

Isn't he the Paine furniture guy?

RE:             <<< Note 230.6 by GLDOA::SLOMIANY "Commander Data" >>>
                     -< I'm not partial to intellectuals. >-


.>"I have examined all the passages in the New Testament quoted from 
.>the Old, and so-called prophecies concerning Jesus Christ, and I 
.>find no such thing as a prophecy of any such person, and I deny 
.>there are any."
.>	-- Thomas Paine (1925), p. 206


 . Gee,  I wonder if this guy has come across any new evidence since
.then to make him change his mind?



 I bet he did, a bit late, however :-(




 Jim

� Do you mean the Old Testament has been updated to include new evidence?

I think that Bob's surmise there is that if Thomas Paine was writing in 1925,
he may by now have gone to where the significance of that same evidence is
undeniable. 

I guess there's a number of us would like to address the base note, but as 
it's 754 lines, it will take us some time to review.  Rather than just give 
any slick or simplistic response, it may take a few days to get a 
considered view.

								Andrew

    I wrote a research paper on this last year (i.e., was Jesus the
    Messiah).  Here's some information from it that you might find useful
    (there are 332 Messianic prophecies in the OT):
    

                                Messianic Prophecies

    The historic completion of the Old Testament is 450 B.C., so all 332 
    Messianic prophecies were first recorded before then.  The Septuagint, 
    which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, was initiated in 
    the reign of Ptolemy Philadelphius (285-246 B.C.). To initiate the Greek 
    translation in 250 B.C., the Hebrew text had to have been already written. 
    There is at least a 250 year gap between the Messianic prophecies and the 
    birth of Jesus Christ!

    Prophecies Concerning His Birth                 Prophecy Fulfilled
    1. Born of the Seed of Woman - Genesis 3:15  Matthew 1:20, Galatians 4:4
    2. Born of a Virgin - Isaiah 7:14            Matthew 1:18-25, Luke 1:26-35
    3. Son of God - Psalms 2:7                   Matthew 3:17
               I Chronicles 17:11-14             Matthew 16:16
              II Samuel 7:12-16                  Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35, 22:70, 
                                                 Acts 13:30-33, John 1:34,49
    4. Seed of Abraham - Genesis 12:2-3          Matthew 1:1
                         Genesis 22:18           Galatians 3:16
    5. Son of Issac - Genesis 21:12              Luke 3:23,34, Matthew 1:2
    6. Son of Jacob - Numbers 24:17              Luke 3:23,34
                      Genesis 35:10-12           Matthew 1:2, Luke 1:33
    7. Tribe of Judah - Genesis 49:10            Luke 3:23,33
                        Micah 5:2                Matthew 1:2, Hebrews 7:14
    8. Family Line of Jesse - Isaiah 11:1        Luke 3:23,32
                              Isaiah 11:10       Matthew 1:6
    9. House of David - Jeremiah 23:5            Luke 3:23,31
                     II Samuel 7:12-16           Matthew 1:1,9:27,15:22
                     Psalms 132:11               20:30-31,21:9,15,22:41-46,
                                                 Mark 9:10,10:47-48, 
                                                 Luke 18:38-39, 
                                                 Acts 13:22-23, Revelation 22:16
   10. Born at Bethlehem - Micah 5:2             Matthew 2:1,4-8, John 7:42, 
                                                 Luke 2:4-7
   11. Time of Birth - Daniel 9:25,              Luke 2:1-7
                      Genesis 49:10
   12. Presented with Gifts - Psalms 72:10-15    Matthew 2:1,11
                        Isaiah 60:6
   13. Herod Kills Children - Jeremiah 31:15     Matthew 2:16

   Prophecies Concerning His Nature              Prophecy Fulfilled
   14. His Pre-Existence - Micah 5:2,            Colossians 1:17,
                   Isaiah 9:6-7,41:4,            John 1:1-2,8:58,17:5,24,
                                                      44:6,48:12,         
                                                 Revelation 1:17,2:8,22:13
                   Psalms 102:25,
                   Proverbs 8:22-23
   15. He Shall Be Called Lord - Psalms 110:1,   Luke 2:11, Matthew 22:43-45
                                Jeremiah 23:6
   16. Shall Be Immanuel - Isaiah 7:14           Matthew 1:23, Luke 7:16
           (God With Us)

   17. Shall Be a Prophet - Deuteronomy 18:18    Matthew 21:11, Luke 7:16,
                                                 John 4:19,6:14,7:40
   18. Priest - Psalms 110:4                     Hebrews 3:1,5:5-6
   19. Judge - Isaiah 33:22                      John 5:30, II Timothy 4:1
   20. King - Psalms 2:6,                        Matthew 27:37,21:5,
            Zechariah 9:9,                       John 18:33-38
            Jeremiah 23:5
   21. Special Anointment of - Isaiah 11:2,42:1,  Matthew 3:16-17,12:17-21,
          Holy Spirit        1:1-2, Psalms 45:7   Mark 1:10-11, Luke 4:15-21,43
                                                  John 1:32
   22. His Zeal for God - Psalms 69:9             John 2:15-17

   Prophecies Concerning His Ministry             Prophecy Fulfilled
   23. Preceded by Messenger - Isaiah 40:3,       Matthew 3:1-3,11:10,
                               Malachi 3:1        John 1:23, Luke 1:17
   24. Ministry to Begin in - Isaiah 9:1          Matthew 4:12-17
             Galilee
   25. Ministry of Miracles - Isaiah 35:5-6,      Matthew 9:32-35,11:4-6, 
                                     32:3-4       Mark 7:33-35, 
                                                  John 5:5-9, 9:6-11,11:43-47
   26. Teacher of Parables - Psalms 78:2          Matthew 13:34
   27. He Was to Enter The - Malachi 3:1          Matthew 21:12
             Temple
   28. Triumphal Entry into - Daniel 9:20-27      Mark 11:1-11
          Jerusalem
   29. He Was to Enter - Zechariah 9:9            Luke 19:35-37, Matthew 21:6-11
        Jerusalem on Donkey
   30. "Stone of Stumbling" to - Psalms 118:22,   I Peter 2:7, Romans 9:32-33
                  Jews       Isaiah 8:14,28:16
   31. "Light" to Gentiles - Isaiah 60:3, 49:6    Acts 13:47-48, 26:23, 28:28

   Prophecies Concerning Events After His Burial   Prophecy Fulfilled
   32. Resurrection - Psalms 16:10,30:3,          Acts 2:31,13:33,
                           41:10,118:17,          Luke 24:46, Mark 16:6,
                            Hosea 6:2             Matthew 28:6
   33. Ascension - Psalms 68:18                   Acts 1:9
   34. Seated at the Right Hand - Psalms 110:1    Hebrews 1:3, Mark 16:19,
              of God                              Acts 2:34-35

   Prophecies Concerning His Crucifixion Events    Prophecy Fulfilled

      The following prophecies in this section were all 500 years old
      on the day of the crucifixion and were all fulfilled within a 24
      hour period.

   35. Betrayed by a Friend - Psalms 41:9,55:12-14  Matthew 10:4,26:49-50, 
                                                    John 13:21
   36. Sold for 30 Pieces of - Zechariah 11:12      Matthew 26:15,27:3
          Silver
   37. Money to Be Thrown in - Zechariah 11:13      Matthew 27:5
          God's House

   38. Price Give for Potter's - Zechariah 11:13    Matthew 27:7
          Field
   39. Forsaken by His - Zechariah 13:7             Mark 14:50,27,
           Disciples                                Matthew 26:31
   40. Accused by False - Psalms 35:11              Matthew 26:59-60
          Witnesses
   41. Dumb Before Accusers - Isaiah 53:7           Matthew 27:12
   42. Wounded and Bruised - Isaiah 53:5,           Matthew 27:26
                          Zechariah 13:6
   43. Smitten and Spit Upon - Isaiah 50:6,         Matthew 26:67,
                                 Micah 5:1          Luke 22:63
   44. Mocked - Psalms 22:7-8                       Matthew 27:31
   45. Fell Under the Cross - Psalms 109:24-25      John 19:17, Luke 23:26, 
                                                    Matthew 27:31-32
   46. Hands and Feet Pierced - Psalms 22:16,       Luke 23:33, John 20:25
                             Zechariah 12:10
   47. Crucified with Thieves - Isaiah 53:12        Matthew 27:38, Mark 15:27-28
   48. Made Intercession for - Isaiah 53:12         Luke 23:34
          His Persecutors
   49. Rejected by His Own - Isaiah 53:3,           John 7:5,48,1:11,
              People   Psalms 69:8,118:22           Matthew 21:42-43
   50. Hated Without a Cause - Psalms 69:4,         John 15:25
                              Isaiah 49:7
   51. Friends Stood Afar Off - Psalms 38:11        Luke 23:49, Mark 15:40, 
                                                    Matthew 27:55-56
   52. People Shook Their Heads - Psalms 109:25,22:7  Matthew 27:39
   53. Stared Upon - Psalms 22:17                   Luke 23:35
   54. Garments Parted and - Psalms 22:18           John 19:23-24
            Lots Cast
   55. To Suffer Thirst - Psalms 69:21,22:15        John 19:28
   56. Gall and Vinegar - Psalms 69:21              Matthew 27:34,
         Offered to Him                             John 19:28-29
   57. His Forsaken Cry - Psalms 22:1               Matthew 27:46
   58. Committed Himself to God - Psalms 31:5       Luke 23:46
   59. Bones Not Broken - Psalms 34:20              John 19:33
   60. Heart Broken - Psalms 22:14                  John 19:34
   61. His Side Pierced - Zechariah 12:10           John 19:34
   62. Darkness Over The Land - Amos 8:9            Matthew 27:45
   63. Buried in Rich Man's - Isaiah 53:9           Matthew 27:57-60
               Tomb

    There are 269 more, all fulfilled by Jesus Christ against incomprehensible 
    odds.

Could we persuade you to post the others?

Paul

>     <<< Note 230.12 by FRETZ::HEISER "beat them until morale improves" >>>
>                           -< Messianic Prophecies >-

>   46. Hands and Feet Pierced - Psalms 22:16,       Luke 23:33, John 20:25
>                             Zechariah 12:10

    I once heard on a tape (can't remember the speaker) that the 22nd Psalm
    was written during the tenth century B.C., which is nothing spectacular
    in and of itself.  However, the speaker went on to point out that
    crucifixion as a form of punishment was not begun until the 2nd century
    B.C.  Can anybody verify this?

    Ron

 I've heard that too..







Jim

Harumph.  The NRSV translates the Psalm verse as "My hands and feet have
shriveled" and marks it as "Meaning of Hebrew uncertain".

Can someone check the Greek?

/john

    Well there's more to it than that. 

    I just read this in a book by Frank Sheed, "To Know Christ Jesus."

      When Jesus spoke from the cross, "my God, my God, why hast thou 
      forsaken me ?" These words were not a cry of anguish from Jesus,
      but they were a quotation which every Jew standing at the cross
      would have been started to hear. For they would have known 
      Psalm 22.

     Treat yourself and read it. I was awed, myself !

    Jim

    Hi,
    
    I haven't read the entire basenote or all of .18 yet.  I really must
    extract them.
    
    Just a couple quick comments though on ALMAH being translated VIRGIN,
    and IMMANUEL.
    
    Almah *can* be translated virgin, which is only logical if you think
    about it from the perspective that a young unmarried woman in those days 
    was expected to be a virgin.  Betulah is more specific, but it is not a
    stretch to see Almah in that light.
    
    Keep in mind also that this was to be a *sign*.  While unmarried women
    were expected to be virgins, they *did* marry young and it was fairly
    common for a young woman to give birth.  What's the sign?
    
    You are right in pointing out the human aspects of this prophecy, but
    I'm assuming you're aware of some of the types and styles of
    interpretation of Hebrew Scripture.  Three that come to mind are:
    
    	P'shat - the plain meaning
    	Remez - a "hint"
    	Drash - application through sort of "digging in"
    
    The p'shat of the Isaiah passage is clear as you pointed out (on behalf
    of the author of the basenote).  But is it possible that there is also
    a remez (hint) to this prophecy as well?  The writers of the Gospels
    certainly thought so.
    
    Another remez is in the name/title Immanuel, meaning, of course - with
    us is G-d.
    
    There are myriads of hints, but the title Immanuel being applied to
    Yeshua is incredibly fascinating!
    
    The Scriptures say
    
    	"Hine El Yeshuati" - behold, G-d is my Salvation, my Yeshua
    
    When Yeshua is born, it is indeed understood that G-d is with us
    (Immanuel) and He (G-d) is our Salvation (our Yeshua).
    
    Just some quick thoughts here.  I really haven't studied the arguments
    put forth in this string. Hope this is of some help.
    
    
    Steve 

    It's quite obvious the root of this person's view is that Jesus was not
    God and that the Bible isn't the infallible word of God.  This may have
    to be established first.
    
    Mike

    .20
    
    Or that the root of this person's view is searching for answers.
    
    Nancy

>Note 230.9                   Jesus: myth or reality?      

>> Gee,  I wonder if this guy has come across any new evidence since
>> then to make him change his mind?

>Do you mean the Old Testament has been updated to include new evidence?


   No, as Andrew guessed, I'm sure the guy has been personally updated 
with the correct information. I'm sorry I confused you. I'm also sorry 
I took so long to respond, I'm not currently working at a DEC office so 
I just modem in from time to time....

	God bless,

	Bob

>> as Andrew guessed, I'm sure the guy has been personally updated 
>> with the correct information. I'm sorry I confused you. 
>
>It still doesn't make much sense but we'd better get past to it.

He's dead.  He met the Lord after his death.  Wherever he is now, he has a full 
understanding of the correct information, and of the consequences of his
rejecting that information here on earth.

That's all that was meant by this.

Paul

� Since he (Thomas Paine) is long dead, it's highly unlikely, at least on
� earth, that he (Thomas Paine) "has come across any new evidence since then
� to make him change his mind". 

Hi Marcos,

On the contrary, that's explicitly *why* Thomas Paine is no longer in any
doubt.  He's no longer limited to the 'on the earth', or 'under the sun' 
aspect.

The conjectured update came from meeting his Creator.  But you realised....

As to the article, God is not interested in giving us logical definitions;
He is interested in awakening love for Him within us. To respond purely to 
logic would make us robots; devoid of personality and character.   Man has 
declared himself as separate from God, through the rebellion at the fall.  
He doesn't undo that by signing a truce, but by heart repentance and 
individual and voluntary submission to the authority of the Creator.

It takes faith for the heart accept what God is saying to us - as Orval
quoted in .4 from 1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not 
accept the things which come from the Spirit of God, for they are 
foolishness to him., and he cannot understand them, because they are 
spiritually discerned."

So as I presume that this article represents your view, we are not going to
change your mind.  That will only happen if you are sincerely asking God to
reveal Himself to you.  It has to come from inside and work out, takes
payer and commitment, to step into what is effectively seeing something
from the culture it's written in, rather than limiting it to one's own
experience.

Meanwhile, we can look at the individual points - rather than trying to
address the whole article in one go (especially as it's 7* the maximium 
length guideline... ;-).  

					God bless
							Andrew

    I'm disappointed at some of the responses to this note.  Yes, it's true
    that many things are spiritually discerned, and yes, people approach
    the Bible skeptically and with predispositions.  
    
    However, the basenote raises some assertions that could be dealt with
    by reference to scholarship that has probably been done, or by methods of
    interpretation, and that needs to be done here.  I'm not qualified, but
    someone must be.  Christianity isn't intellectually bankrupt;  it's
    only Christians that give that impression.  Rejecting the basenote
    summarily isn't exactly convincing, even to me, who holds the Bible to
    be inerrant....
    
    Thanks  - Don Randall

re: .23

Hi (I didn't catch your first name either...am I missing something? ;-)

>It still doesn't make much sense but we'd better get past to it.

I think subsequent notes have addressed this.  No doubt, since Thomas Paine 
is dead, he now knows whether Yeshua really is the Messiah.  Jim Lippard 
may still have some research to do.  May G-d be merciful and give Jim as 
much time as he needs to see the truth.

>Hopefully someone in this notesfile can produce such evidence so that Jim
>can be "updated with the correct information".

;-)

Well, I took a stab at it with the almah/betulah argument.  But this isn't 
evidence I dug up myself.  This argument, as well as the entirety of the 
arguments posted in .0 is old and has been hashed out many times by 
scholars with many different perspectives.  Evidence exists that 
contradicts the assertion in .0.  So.....?

In many ways, it's like we're on a jury and evidence from the Accuser and 
Defender has been put before us.  How do the scales balance?

Most of .0 seems to be based on Sigal's book (at least, that's the sense 
Lippard left me with).  This class of writing, known commonly as 
"Anti-Missionary" literature is readily available.  Levine's "You Take 
Jesus, I'll Take God" was the first I encountered and studied with great 
fascination.

One can also find Orthodox Jewish scholars who accept Yeshua's resurrection 
as fact, such as Pinchas Lapide (I may have spelled his name incorrectly).  
But Mr. Lapide doesn't consider His resurrection, factual though it is, to 
be a necessary qualification for Yeshua's Messiahship, and therefore, he 
doesn't believe Yeshua to be the Messiah.

This is very important:

That anyone can have such confidence in the fact that *anybody* died, laid 
in a tomb for 3 days, and then resurrected bodily; yet *still* not believe 
He is who He said He is, is evidence that even the best facts alone will 
not convince!

Perhaps the greatest "anti-missionary" that ever lived was Rav Sha'ul of 
Tarsus.  Here was a man, a contemporary of Yeshua of Nazareth, who was 
violently opposed to Yeshua's message.  So much so, he presided over and 
participated in the killing of many of Yeshua's early followers.

He had the facts.  He lived in the time and place of Yeshua's ministry.  He 
had all the facts he needed, but he was not convinced.  No Josh McDowell, 
no John Ankerberg, no Walter Martin, not the best apologist would convince 
him.

Until he came face to Face with the Risen L-rd Yeshua the Messiah.  His 
presence literally knocked Sha'ul off his high horse and put him face down 
before the L-rd.

Having facts isn't enough.  Having Him meet you right where you are is 
another story.

All of us who have become believers have had to get knocked off our own 
high horses and come face to Face with Him.  Just as Ya'akov (Jacob) did 
when he wrestled with the Angel of the L-rd and had to confess who he was.  
With his name changed from Ya'akov to Yisrael, he realized Who he was 
wrestling with and called the place Peniel because he had seen G-d face to 
Face and lived.

I hope these facts are of some value to Mr. Lippard.  But facts and 
evidence alone aren't enough.  And frankly, I don't think the L-rd is 
looking to win over our intellectual mind...I think He wants our love.

I also think He deserves our love and perhaps in that surrender, we can use 
our intellect for His glory.  I just don't think it happens the other way 
around.

But then again, I'm not G-d!  He can do what He likes with whomever He 
likes.

FWIW,

Steve

    In addition to what Steve said, some of us don't have the time nor the
    desire to rehash this.  700 lines of text will take some work to
    refute.  There are scholarly works that present the facts much better 
    than we ever could.  But as Steve says, he has to meet God first because 
    McDowell, Martin, or Ankerberg couldn't convince him.
    
    regards,
    Mike

Hi Don,

We haven't rejected the idea of discussing these issues by any means.  In
fact there are two aspects in particular I was hoping to get into
imminently, but I'm swamped at the moment (though I'm not competent in all
these areas, and for many of them can only recall lectures by those who
are...).  The trouble is that each area is so big that it demands a lot of
time for input, which isn't readily available for many of us just now -
witness my lack of participation recently, for which I am extremely
sorry...  My previous was just preparatory, because the anticipation of the 
sort of approach offered in .0 is usually for a cut-and-dried conclusion, 
which is obviously impracticable.  We're talking spiritual mattters here;
not temporal.

						God bless
							Andrew

	bottom line - just keep watching this space ... ;-}

    The characteristics of prophecy are significantly different from that of
    ordinary communication.  The prophet is not speaking on his own behalf;
    he is relaying a message which is a burden from, not just a higher being,
    but One Whose presence, integrity and authority are from outside the
    limitations of our existance.  His creative authority extends to knowing
    the very activity of our minds (Genesis 7:5).  The authority that the
    prophet is under is demonstrated in Amos 7:14-15 and 1 Peter 1:21.  The
    scrutiny that the prophecy is under is indicated in 1 Corinthians 14:29
    and Deuteronomy 18:20-22.  However, there is also a responsibility on the
    hearer, as indicated in Deuteronomy 18:19.  If you have read the Bible,
    you are directly responsible to God for your stance in that respect.

    The language of prophecy is frequently couched in general or indirect
    terms.  This is understandable in view of the awesome responsibility it
    represents, where the prophet fears lest he should inadvertently express
    something of himself where he wishes only to represent the LORD.  This is
    due not to the inaccurcy of the channel, but to the humility which makes
    the channel suitable.  A measure of the restraining of self - cf Isaiah
    57:15.

    It is difficult to specifically lay down limitations and demands upon the
    fulfillment of prophecy before the event.  However, when a prophecy
    reaches it's complete fulfillment, the significance is unmistakable to
    those who are watching with an open heart to the LORD.  This is part of
    God's interaction with mankind, which is non-simplistic.  I don't want to
    side-track into that aspect here, other than to say that His primary
    purpose for mankind is *not* to give them a knowledge of what's to come;
    rather to establish a relationship with Himself.  The awareness of what
    God is doing through prophecy is rather to reveal Himself further where
    an awakening relationship can be developed.

    So, when mysterious passages take on an extra dimension of reality in
    fulfillment, confirming God's truth all along the line, scripture has to
    be examined against scripture for validation and verification - cf Acts
    17:11, Galatians 1:8-9.

    Events which are prophesied indicate the results of a spiritual
    progression.  The world is moving towards a climax.  Cycles of empires
    were prophesied in Daniel, each of which met their end being overwhelmed
    by an empire more rigid and less glorious.  Some prophecies meet with a
    partial fulfillment, before another cycle of world activities, a
    spiritual resurgence or revival of some type.  An instance of this is the
    prophecy in Daniel 9:27 concerning the abomination of desolation in the
    temple had an approximate fulfillment under Antiochus Epiphanes in 168
    B.C.  Other prophecies go into more detail on this (eg Daniel 11:36-45),
    showing that Antiochus Epiphanes was only a precursor, as the LORD Jesus
    confirms in Matthew 24:15, referring to the event as one which had a
    future complete fulfillment.

    Similarly there are statements which the LORD Jesus identifies as
    prophecies about Himself, which no-one would presume to identify
    beforehand.  However, the evidence of the life and works of the LORD
    Jesus are a witness to the genuineness of His identity.  This is a matter
    of principle.  Jesus did not claim His authority before those who He knew
    would reject it, bringing them into condemnation.  He wasn't interested in
    persuading minds alone, but in reaching hearts,which is achieved by the
    accumulation of evidence and experience over time.  Their are various
    prime examples of this.  

    One example is where He is challenged by the unbelieving  Jews as to His
    authority, in Matthew 21:23.  He does not attempt to confuse spiritually
    blind men with spiritual realities, but rather refers them to His
    presursor, John the Baptist.  Their authority was linked. The leaders
    were not willing to consider the question honestly, and thought more of
    their personal pride,and their reputation amongst the people (John 12:42)
    than of where this authority actually came from.  So they hedged and
    retreated.  Meanwhile, there were some priests, for instance, who over
    time, admitted the truth of the evidence which had been presented to them
    (Acts 6:7).

    Another example is where the imprisoned John the Baptist is beset by
    doubt and depression, and seeks reassurance from the LORD Jesus, in
    Matthew 11:2-5.  A mere "Yes" or "No" can be the claim of any man.  Jesus
    sent the disciples of John back with a living picture of fulfillment,
    which John would have recognised as pictured in Isaiah 45:4-5 and Isaiah
    61:1 if he had had chapter and verse divisions....  

    The sum of this is that for anyone who is determined NOT to see the
    fulfillment of the Messiah in the LORD Jesus, they can satisfy a
    superficial conscience indefinitely by querying the limitations of man's
    understanding.  The one thing they will not reach that way is the
    revelation of God's truth.  The magnification of the smaller spiritual
    'block'  is fed upon to prevent any further development (Luke 7:29-30,
    and the hardening of Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 7:13, 8:15,19,32, 9:12,35,
    10:27,11:10).

    The question of Biblical dating is one I am not generally equipped to
    address, but the claim that even portions of the Old Testament were
    written other than around the times the events occurred (given that the
    Pentateuch was collected for writing in Moses' time) raises more problems
    than it can solve.  I believe that Paine's information nay be
    significantly out of date here, as it used to be in vogue to denigrate
    little understood areas which were later found to be true.  This is so
    with the accuracy of the gospel of Luke, for instance.

    The most significant example I am aware of on the dating front concerns
    the book of Daniel.  The prophecies of chapter 11:1-34 were so precisely
    fulfilled that Bible critics insisted on postdating the book by some 200
    years, to after the main events, as well as calling it inaccurate in
    detail.  Daniel started to write in the Babylonian empire, much of whose
    culture was lost by the subsequent defeat by the Medo-Persians, and then
    by Greece.  Recent excavations have revealed details which confirm
    Daniel's accuracy, and make it impossibly unlikely for him to have
    written at any other date than the time of the Babylonian empire.

    Daniel 1:1 refers to Nebuchadnezzar's siege of Jerusalem as starting in
    the third year of the reign of king Jehoiakim of Judah.  Jeremiah 25:1
    refers to the same event, but places it in the fourth year of Jehoiakim's
    reign.  Measuring dates is a complex matter (I'm half way through 'The
    Mysterious Numbers of the Hebrew kings', by Thiele), but critics presumed
    to decide that Daniel was in error.  In fact, he knew Jeremiah's
    writings, including the significance of dating precision, as indicated in
    Daniel 9:2, referring to Jeremiah 29:10.  But Daniel was writing in and
    for Babylon, not in Judah.  In Babylon the first year of a king's reign
    was his accession year.  The next year was considered the first year of
    his reign.  This was not so in Judah at that time (though it was during
    other reigns).  So Daniel gave the correct dating according to the local
    chronology.  Anything else would have been incorrect.  So, far from
    invalidating Daniel, this helps to validate not only his accuracy, but
    also the prophetic significance of his writings.

    I have to stop there, but hope to consider other aspects as time permits.

					God bless
                                                       Andrew

I agree with Don Randall in 230.26 & have extracted the base note to look at.
As others have said though, it may take some time to provide the counter
arguments.  

I am one of those persons, who having been convinced of something, and having 
tried it out and found it to be true, then tends to forget some of the 
particulars that convinced of me of its truth in the beginning to move onto 
deeper things without rehashing the foundation all the time.  I can talk about
why I belive what I believe, but I cannot argue it defensibly like a law case 
unless I dig into the research side of it all over again and it takes time to
do that.  For those who have not looked at these things sufficiently, I think 
one can benefit from doing so.  Truth should not be afraid of scholarship.


Leslie

    re:.33
    
    I just recently listened to a teaching by Dr. Louis Goldberg (Prof at
    Moody Bible Instit.) who addressed many of the questions raised in .0.
    I will endevor to get them in here, but only as time allows. 
    
    To add to what Andrew has said. It was a very accepted practice in 1st
    century Judaism (and actually in the Older Testament times as well)
    when listing geneologies, to only include the key people the Rabbi
    deamed important. This was due to the fact that most people new the
    geneologies of key people (eg. they knew Abraham was decended from Noah
    so way include all those in between) and that those geneologies were
    available through the scriptures themselves or within the temple
    system. Dr. Goldberg referenced several times in the T'nach of where
    shortened geneologies were listed. If requested, I'll site those later.

    I guess I wanted to spur some good answers to the base note, and
    Andrew, you did some great work.  I learned a few things.  Thanks!
    
    I would add a few things, from a conceptual basis.
    
    First, prophesy is one indicator of truth of Christian doctrine.  There
    are many others.  The first and foremost is the person of Jesus.  He
    made claims and other parts of the Bible made claims about who He is. 
    Those have to be dealt with, by anyone seeking to critique
    Christianity.  Stott's and C.S. Lewis' explanation of the basic
    doctrines of the faith are best and simplest to my taste, although
    people like Josh McDowell's Evidence that demands a Verdict.  Anyone
    who wants to question Christianity should start with Christ, which is a
    dangerous thing to do - losing one's skepticism is the only honest
    response to a genuine confrontation with the Lord!
    
    Second, there were two points made late in the base note that to me are
    easy to deal with.  First, it says that there is prophesy about the
    Messiah "healing the land".  Not an exact quote.  It goes on to say
    that only God can do that, and gives the reasoning, the point being
    that Jesus didn't do this, and so can't be the Messiah.  Well,...  the
    Bible asserts that Jesus is God, John 14:5-14, John 1:1-14,and others. 
    So, the consistant view would be that Jesus is Messiah, is God, and
    heals the land. 
    
    Second, the prophesies call for the Messiah to be a king.  The basenote
    says that Jesus was not a king, and therefore not the Messiah.  Again,
    this is contradicted by the Gospels.  Jesus said He was king of the
    Jews (Matt. 27:11) and gave quite a bit of detail about His kingdom. 
    Trouble is, it's not an earthly kingdom as David's was.  Jews of the
    time of Christ missed that point, as did the writer of the basenote.
    
    Anyway, thanks for the constructive dialog..
    
    Regards
    
    Don

    Well after feeling guilty about avoiding the challenge, I decided to
    address some points.  Don't expect too much though...
    
>the past.  Given our present knowledge of the chronology of the 
>Bible's writing, however, in most cases it cannot be demonstrated 
>that the prophetic statements do not post-date the events being 
>predicted.  In the case of the Old Testament prophecies of the 

First of all, the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't the only documents that pre-date the
life of Christ.  The historic completion of the Old Testament is 450 B.C., so
all 332 Messianic prophecies were  first recorded before then.  The Septuagint,
which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, was initiated in the
reign of Ptolemy Philadelphius (285-246 B.C.). To initiate the Greek
translation in 250 B.C., the Hebrew text had to have been already written.
There is at least a 250 year gap between the Messianic prophecies and the
birth of Jesus Christ!  Jim Lippard misses with the first swing of the bat.

Unger's Bible Dictionary provides these dates for the prophetic books:

Amos            800 BC  (2nd quarter)  p.46
Daniel      605-583 BC                 p.491
Ezekiel     592-570 BC                 p.336
Hosea       748-690 BC                 p.501
Isaiah      783-738 BC (1st)
            735-719 BC (2nd)
            719-704 BC (3rd)           p.534
Jeremiah    626-586 BC                 p.568-570
Joel            300 BC                 p.1149
Leviticus 1520-1400 BC                 p.760-762
Matthew          50 AD                 p.706
Micah       738-690 BC                 p.726
Nahum       661-612 BC                 p.774
Obadiah         300 BC                 p.1185
Zephaniah   640-621 BC                 p.1185

>many have noted, the Hebrew word translated as "virgin" in this 
>verse is "almah," which is more accurately translated simply as 
>"young woman."  The Hebrew word "bethulah" means "virgin."  In the 
>book of Isaiah, "bethulah" appears four times (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 
>62:5), so its author was aware of the word.  In the New American 

I believe Andrew or Steve touched on this already, but I'll see if I can add to
what they said.  Unlike today, a maiden of Isaiah's or Mary's day was probably
a virgin 99% of the time.  You can't look at past cultures with your modernistic
glasses on.  In addition, McDowell says, "The Holy Spirit through Isaiah did not
use 'bethulah', because both the ideas of virginity and marriageable age had to
be combined in one word to meet the immediate historical situation and the
prophetic aspect centering in a virgin-born Messiah."  Lastly, virgin in Greek
is 'parthenos.'  This is translated as a virgin, a marriageable maiden or young
married woman, pure virgin (Matt 1:23, 25:1,7,11, Luke 1:27, Acts 21:9, I
Corinthians 7:25,28,33, II Corinthians 11:2).  When the translators of the
Septuagint translated Isaiah 7:14 into Greek, they used the word 'parthenos.'
They also understood that the Messiah in Isaiah 7:14 was to be born of a virgin.

>	Another problem is that nowhere in the New Testament does 
>Mary, Jesus' mother, refer to him as "Immanuel."  Thus we have no 
>evidence that one of the conditions of the prophecy was ever 
>fulfilled.

Emmanuel and Immanuel are the same.  They are both translated "God With Us."
See Matthew 1:23.

>	But the most serious problem with this alleged messianic 
>prophecy is that it has been taken out of context.  Looking at the 
>entire seventh chapter of Isaiah, it becomes clear that the child 
>in question is to be born as a sign to Ahaz, King of Judah, that 
>he will not be defeated in battle by Rezin, King of Syria, and 
>Pekah, son of the King of Israel.  Jesus' birth was some seven 
>centuries late to be such a sign.

I disagree.  Take Isaiah 6, 8, and 9 into context as well.  In accordance with
Daniel's prophecy in chapter 2, the Lord is revealing through Isaiah the coming
judgement and persecution of Israel at the hands of the Roman Empire.
Emmanuel's birth is a sign of spiritual deliverance.

>Barrett's evidence is that in 1 Timothy 1:3-4, the writer (who may 
>or may not be the apostle Paul) advises that his audience

FWIW, Timothy and Paul are separate people.  It would be rather schizophrenic of
Paul to refer to himself as Timothy.  You only need to read I Timothy 1:1-2 to
realize this.

>which is by faith."  The earliest gospel, Mark, lacks an account 
>of Jesus' birth, as does John, the latest gospel.  Virgin birth is 
>obviously quite relevant to genealogy, and both Matthew and Luke 
>present Jesus' genealogy in close proximity to the story.

The theme of Mark's gospel is servanthood (Mark 10:45) and is focused on
Jesus' ministry.  The theme of John's gospel is Jesus the Eternal Son, the
Word, the I AM.  The virgin birth doesn't necessarily have to be repeated
more than twice to be valid.

>	A second claimed birth prophecy is that Jesus would be born 
>in the city of Bethlehem, cited in Matthew (2:1-6), Luke (2:4-7), 
>and John's (7:42) gospels.  Of these, Matthew and John 
>specifically refer to prophecy in the Hebrew scriptures.  The 

The one thing that escapes you here is John 7:42.  The Jews were well aware of
the scriptures and never doubted that the Messiah would come from David's family
and would be born in Bethlehem.  This was common knowledge among the Jews and is
indisputable.

    more later...
    
    Mike

    The article in .0 exhibits some confusion about the genealogical trees in
    Matthew and Luke.  It claims that both of these go through Joseph, the
    husband of Mary.  There are several significant points about the family
    trees recorded :

    Matthew is written from as Hebrew perspective, to show the Jewish regal
    inheritance of the LORD Jesus.  As such, it starts from Abraham, and
    selects the majority of people in the line down to Joseph, who, it
    specifies, was the husband of Mary, of whom ('whom' is singular feminine
    in the Greek), was born Jesus, who is called Christ (Messiah).  This tree
    departs from Jewish tradition in that it includes mention of 4 women
    in the tree.  It also specifies that only 14 generations are included for
    each of three sections of the tree (verse 17).  By comparison with the
    Old Testament records, it can be seen that some kings are omitted from
    this record, but it shows the lineage.  Notably it includes Jehoiakin
    (Jeconiah, v11), who is explicitly excluded from the blood line in
    Jeremiah 22:30.  None of his blood-line descendants were kings, although
    that was the legal line.  After him, his uncle (Zedekiah) was put on the
    throne, until the final exile.  After the exile, the rulers were
    governors under the subsequent empires, not kings.  So the adoption of
    the LORD Jesus by Joseph gave him the legal right to the throne, but
    bypassed the forbidden bloodline.  Adoption required two actions: Naming
    - until I found this, I wondered why *Joseph* was given the
    responsibility of giving the LORD Jesus His Name in Matthew 1:21.  The
    other action was giving him his job.  Jesus was referred to as both 'the
    carpenter', and 'the son of the carpenter'.  Matthew records the line of
    the kingship, and how it avoided the tainted blood.

    Luke 3 gives us the line through Mary, the human mother of the LORD
    Jesus.  He adheres to the Jewish tradition by not including any women in
    the line, but instead, mentioning the husband (v23).  "He was the son, so
    it was thought, of Joseph".  I have heard that the original Hebrew
    qualifies Joseph separately from the rest of the line, but my Hebrew
    doesn't cover that!  Luke's record demonstrates Jesus' humanity, tracing
    back to Adam.

    Significantly, the two genealogies diverge - or unite, depending on your
    perspective - in David, the last one to receive the promise that he
    would have the Messiah as a descendent (2 Samuel 7:11-12, Jeremiah
    33:20-26).

    Joseph's line then comes through Solomon (Matthew 1:6-7), and the
    subsequent kings, as already discussed.

    Mary's line comes from another son of David and Bathsheba, called Nathan
    (Luke 3:31, 2 Samuel 5:14, 1 Chronicles 3:5).

    There is another interesting point to do with genealogies, which concerns
    the care taken in Israel over their accuracy.  Genealogies were preserved
    in the temple at Jerusalem.  Each Israelite child's name was entered
    there at birth.  When some priests didn't have legal confirmation of
    their lineage, on returning from exile, they were banned from serving until
    it could be positively verified (Nehemiah 7:63-65).  The real
    significance of the records was in that it identified the Messiah.  After
    A.D. 70, when the temple was destroyed, the records were destroyed also.
    Except the significant portions preserved in Matthew 1 and Luke 3....

    re Zerubbabel and Shealtiel :

    It is a common practice to give a child the name of a relative or
    respected person.  My four sons include reference to a number of our
    relatives in their secondary names.  For a number of generations, the
    oldest sons in my father's family line were named alternately 'John' and
    'Robert'.  This sort of practice is not recent, as can be seen from Luke
    1:61, where the neighbours and relatives clearly expected John the
    Baptist to be named after a relative.  In the genealogy of Luke 3, there
    are several names which are more familiar from elsewhere.  For instance,
    Luke 3:29 includes the names Joshua, Levi, Simeon, Judah and Joseph, none
    of whom (in this case) are 'well-known'...  As well as the 'Noah' of
    Genesis 6-9, there is a woman called Noah referred to in Numbers 26:33,
    27:1, 36:11, Joshua 17:3.

    So I find it surprisingly naive and groundless to presume that the
    'Zerubbabel's and 'Shealtiel's of Matthew 1 and Luke 3 are the same
    people, against the straightforward evidence of the listings.

    I don't know about the descendants of Zerubbabel as recorded in Matthew
    as against 1 Chronicles (the different 'Zerubbabel' of Luke 3 doesn't
    come into this).  I do know that some people - especially in the royal
    line - received more than one name, and different names could be used
    exclusively in different contexts, as also could a title.

    - eg 'Uzziah' of 2 Chronicles 26 is clearly the same person as 'Azariah'
    of  2 Kings 14:21-15:7 .

    King Solomon was also given the name Jedidah, both names being given by
    the LORD - 2 same 12:24-25, 1 Chronicles 22:9

    The apostle Judas son of James (Luke 6:16) gets (understandably)
    referred to as Thaddaeus (Matthew 10:4, Mark 3:18).

    Others have changed their names, or had them changed for them - from Mark
    9:9-13, Mark 2:13-17, Luke 5:27-32 it is understood that, for some reason
    unrecorded, Matthew changed his name from Levi on following the LORD
    Jesus.

    From Acts 4:36, a man named Joseph is called by his nickname of Barnabus
    (cf Acts 11:25-26, 13:2)...

    etc etc - instances could be multiplied up.  Enough to reserve judgment
    on a situation where we do not have full knowledge, rather than close the
    mind to possibilities, and declare the evidence false.

################################################################################
Leaving genealogies and names, there's a few minor points I could mention here:
################################################################################

1.  There is a reference to Malachi 3:1, where the 'Elijah to come' is to
    'clear the way' for the LORD.  This topic has extensive implications,
    which are interesting, but of limited relevance, and I doubt if I will
    have time to enter it anything like thoroughly, but a reference which is
    pertinent is Luke 7:29.

################################################################################

2.  As regards Matthew 27:9-10, referring to 'Jeremiah', as containing the
    prophesy about the silver in the temple, actually found in Zechariah,
    that's a simple matter of cultural organisation.  The Old Testament was
    held in a number of separate scrolls, frequently referred to by the book
    with which they started.  Zechariah came under the scroll of Jeremiah.

################################################################################

3.  Matthew 2:23 "He shall be called a Nazarene" ... Another cultural one.
    Jewish popular perception of people from Nazareth was somewhat negative.
    A Nazarene was someone who tended to be despised by people from other
    parts, as it was regarded as a cultural backwater.  Certainly my country
    has similar quirks about some areas, and I have even heard hints of such
    a geographically elitist view in the U.S.  But I won't be specific in
    case anyone feels vulnerable ... ;-)

    So Matthew 2:23 generalized passages like Isaiah 53:3.  Certainly nothing
    to do with being a Nazarite, which is a totally different thing altogether!

################################################################################

    I hope this is of some help, or at least interest....  We (at least,
    especially 'I') are not experts, as referred to in .0 .  To be such
    an 'expert' would require full time occupation.  There's a lot more
    ground in .0 still to cover, in particular, some basic principles which
    need more concentrated time and attention than I have yet afforded.
    Though because of their importance, I would have liked to have covered
    them first...


					God bless
                                                       Andrew

On reviewing .33 I found rather a lot of typos, and in particular, a 
'Nazarene' instead of a 'Nazirite' which made nonsense...  So I've 
corrected it (hence the out-of-sequence date).  No changes other than those 
typos.

						apologies
								Andrew

>the Messiah.  Daniel 9:24-27 says:

This is the most amazing prophecy in the Bible to me.  Our God actually predicts
Jesus Christ's triumphal entry into Jerusalem down to the day!  Needless to say
I don't agree with your analysis of it.  Here's how I view it:

The Hebrew word for weeks ('shabua') can also be interpreted to be sevens.
This we pretty much agree on.  For another interesting use of this concept in
the Bible, refer to the story of Jacob and how he obtained Rachel for his wife
(Genesis 29:18-30 - served Rachel's father for 2 weeks or 14 years to gain her
hand in marriage).

The Jews followed a lunar calendar at that time, which consisted of 360 day
years (30 day months).  They would add a month when necessary to keep up with
the celestial bodies.  If you refer to Genesis 7-8, you see that the flood
lasted 5 months or 150 days (2nd month to the 7th month).  If you refer to
Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 12:6 you see that all the books of the Bible
refer to a prophetic month as 30 days.

The 70 7's are 490 years applied to the nation of Israel.  The 70 weeks are
divided into 3 groups: 7 weeks, 62 weeks, and 1 final week at the end.  It 
does not apply to the church as some suspect.  Look at what's going to be
accomplished in these 3 verses:

1. Transgression will be finished (v. 24)
2. End of sin will be made
3. Atonement for iniquity will be made
4. Everlasting righteousness will be brought in
5. Vision and prophecy fulfilled
6. The Most Holy (Holy of Holies) will be anointed

As of today, 4 of these 6 have been fulfilled.  All prophecy has not been
fulfilled to date.  The Holy of Holies in the true temple of God has not yet
been anointed.

In Daniel 9:2, God is referencing Jeremiah's desolation of Jerusalem.  In verse
25, the starting date of the prophecy is given.  We have to find the decree to
restore and rebuild Jerusalem and we know that there are 4 of them.  Only 1 of
the 4 fulfills prophecy because the other 3 had to do with allowing Jews to go
back to their homeland and/or rebuild the temple.  The emperor declared that
the temple always had to be rebuilt before the city was rebuilt so that the Jews
wouldn't rebel again.  No other decree besides the one in Nehemiah authorizes
the rebuilding of the temple *AND* the city.

The decree we want was issued by Artaxerxes in March 5, 444 BC (Hebrew calendar
is Nisan 1, 444 BC) and is referenced in Nehemiah 2:1-8.  The first 7 week
period is 49 years and the second 62 week period is 434 years.  In those first
49 years years, Jerusalem and the temple was rebuilt as prophecied.
Afterwards, we have 434 years before the Messiah would come into Jerusalem.

Going back to the beginning of the prophecy, which is the decree to rebuild
Jerusalem, we have 483 years (173,880 days) to the arrival of the Messiah in
Jerusalem (Zechariah 9:9).  The difference between 444 BC and 33 AD then is 476
solar years.  If you multiply 476 by 365.25 days (365 days, 5 hours, 48 minutes,
45.975 seconds in an official year), the product is 173,855 days, 6 hours, 52
minutes, and 44 seconds.  We'll stick to 173,855 days for clarity's sake.  This
leaves only 25 days to be accounted for between 444 BC and 33 AD.  If you add
the 25 days to March 5 (of 444 BC), you come up with March 30 (of 33 AD) which
was Nisan 10 in 33 AD.  Jesus Christ was crucified that same week on April 3, 33
AD.

Did it happen?  Look at Luke 19:29-44.  This is the triumphal entry of Jesus
into Jerusalem.  We see Jesus weeping over Jerusalem because they didn't even
recognize "this their day" as He entered Jerusalem as their Messiah.

After the 62 weeks, the Messiah will be cut off or killed.  After this Jerusalem
will be destroyed again, the people will be scattered, and Jerusalem will 
continue to be the center of conflict until the very end of time.

Now we have the final 1 week period left and it deals with the nation of
Israel.  There is a gap between verses 25 and 27 and this isn't unusual in
prophetic writings.  Look at Ephesians 3:4-9.  Paul talks about how the OT
prophets saw the Messaianic writings as a straight road, without seeing the dips
in the road.  God had to work through the Gentiles and bring them into the
church as well and the OT writers never anticipated that.  Luke 4:14-21
elaborates on this.  Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1-2, but if you read verse 2
you noticed that He stopped at the comma.  The Jews saw it as 1 event in the
same day.  This was probably one of the reasons why they reacted so strangely
to Him reading that text.  The first coming was for forgiveness, grace, and a
way out of the coming wrath.  The second coming (rest of verse 2) was the time
of wrath.  There's a gap between the 2 events.  This is why those that feel the
final week should've happened 7 years after the Messiah's entry into Jerusalem
are wrong.

We've been waiting some 2,000 years now while God is bringing more into the
church (the Church Age).  In Acts 1:3-8, the disciples knew Jesus had
established Himself as the Messiah by rightfully asking about the next step.
Jesus answer in Acts 1:7 is the key hear and supports the verse that "No man
knows the day nor the hour..."  This final week will have an idefinite gap and
will be fulfilled in God's timing only.  Before this last week can happen, the
temple and Jerusalem had to be destroyed.  This first time this happened after
Messiah entered Jerusalem was in 70 AD (~40 years later).  This final week is
where the Antichrist will make a firm covenant with Israel, stop sacrifices in
the temple, and will defile the temple and begin the Great Tribulation
(Matthew 24:15-28).  This couldn't have happened in the first century AD.

    The sources I used are:
    
    Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict - Volume 1" (1979)
    Calvary Chapel Pastor Chuck Smith, tape 4977 (might have to double
           check the number)
    Calvary Chapel Pastor J. Mark Martin, tape DA015
    
more later...
Mike

 Yow!  I remember hearing this on a radio program one time and i almost had to
 pull off the road..amazing.






 Jim

Ministry Prophecies

>(Isaiah 9:6-7) speak of a child to be born who will be king, whose 
>"name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal 
>Father, Prince of Peace."  Jewish tradition says that this refers 
>to King Hezekiah, not the Messiah (Sigal 1981, pp. 29-32).  Isaiah 

How can King Hezekiah be considered "Mighty God, Eternal Father,..."?  There's
no way this isn't a Messianic prophecy.  In addition, Jesus never laid claim to
an earthly kingdom.  His kingship was declared in John 18:33-38.

>will be unstopped") but also, in verses 7-8, describes land being 
>"healed."  There is no clear indication here that these healings 
>have anything to do with the Messiah, rather, it is God himself 
>doing the healing.  The gospels contain no account of Jesus 
>healing land.

And it was God in the flesh presenting the gospel of His kingdom in Matthew
9:35.  His kingdom was healed.

>(19:28-38), and John (12:12-19), Jesus entered Jerusalem riding on 
>a donkey.  But Matthew 21:1-11 has Jesus riding on both a donkey 
>and a colt, indicating his misunderstanding of the prophecy.

Isn't a small donkey also called a colt?  What's the original Greek say?
Zechariah 9:9 tends to support my question, "...even on a colt, the foal of a
donkey."  A foal is a young member of the horse family.

Betrayal Prophecies

>being betrayed by a close and trusted friend.  Yet Jesus already 
>had foreknowledge of his betrayal by Judas (John 13:21-26), and so 
>must not have trusted him.  When the gospel of John (13:18) quotes 
>from Psalm 41:9, it tacitly admits this problem by omitting the 
>phrase "in whom I trusted."  Neither verse from the Hebrew 
>scriptures gives any indication of being intended as prophetic.

You're putting a sinless man into our sinful box.  He knew what would happen,
yet trusted Judas as an act of ministry to him.  Regardless, the bottomline of
His mission on earth was to be a sacrifice on the cross.  There was no stopping
that.

>	Matthew 26:14-15 states that Judas Iscariot was paid thirty 
>pieces of silver by the Jewish priests as payment for his 
>betrayal.  Matthew 27:9-10 claims that this is done to fulfill a 
>prophecy of Jeremiah:
>
>The problem here is that the quoted verse appears nowhere in the 
>book of Jeremiah.  There is a verse which is quite similar in the 
>book of Zechariah, but there the prophet Zechariah is speaking

I believe the prophecy in regards to the 30 pieces of silver is in Zechariah
and the actual field's owner (potter descendant) is prophesied in Jeremiah.
However, I haven't researched this and am not 100% sure of this.

Crucifixion Prophecies

>pierced my hands and my feet."  This is a psalm of David which 
>gives no indication of being prophetic and which describes the 
>speaker being hunted down and killed rather than being crucified.

There's no way you can claim that you've read all of Psalm 22.  This exact
description of the crucifixion wasn't never experienced by David and has to be
prophetic.  The amazing fact is that this was written over 500 years before
death by crucifixion was ever invented.  Read Psalm 22:14-18.  

>Gerald Sigal (1981, p. 98) argues that the Hebrew word translated 
>here as "pierced" is "ariy," which means "lion," and so a more 
>accurate translation would be "like a lion [they are gnawing at] 
>my hands and feet."  Gleason Archer (1982, p. 37), however, argues 
>that "they pierced" is correct, based on the Septuagint's 
>translation and other considerations.

So bottomline is "pierce" is correct.  In addition, a lion's fang would do the
job just as nicely if the author was using a figure of speech.

>	Zechariah 12:10 says "they will look on me whom they have 
>pierced; and they will mourn for him, as one mourns for an only 
>son ...."  The gospel of John (19:37) takes this as prophecy 
>fulfilled by Jesus' crucifixion, but there is no indication that 
>this speaks of crucifixion.  Further, the "him" being mourned for

Taking verses Zech. 12:10-13 into context, it's obvious that Jesus is the only
member of the House of David that experience such a piercing.

>	Zechariah 13:6 speaks of "these wounds between your arms," 
>spoken of one who claims not to be a prophet and to have been sold 
>as a slave in his youth (Zechariah 13:5).  Wounds between one's 
>arms are not characteristic of crucifixion, and Jesus was neither 

But he was severely flogged (at least 39 lashes) on the back and his side
pierced.  Last time I looked, our back and sides are between the arms.

>casting of lots for his tunic (John 19:24).  It appears that John 
>created a story in an attempt to provide a fulfillment for his 
>misunderstanding of a verse which gives no indication of being a 
>prophecy in the first place.

Well we've already proven it's prophetic.  As for the rest, I think you're
picking a nit.  If you look at the scene at the cross, it doesn't contradict
Psalm 22:18.  It's 2 events in Psalm 22:18 as well: "They divide my garments
among them, *AND* for my clothing they cast lots."  The vesture or tunic was
awarded by casting lots after the rest was handed out.  Read John 19:23 as well.

>	Matthew (27:34) speaks of Jesus being given "wine to drink 
>mingled with gall" and Mark (15:23) says he was offered "wine 
>mixed with myrrh."  These are both taken to be references to 
>Psalms 69:21, which says "they gave me gall for my food, and for 
>my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink."  The Hebrew word here 
>translated as "gall" is "rosh," meaning poison or gall, and 
>referring to some poisonous plant.  The verse says that poison is 
>being put into food, which does not apply to the crucifixion.

He was offered the vinegar drink twice.  He only accepted the second time after
they took the myrrh out (see also John 19:28, Matthew 27:48).  Myrrh caused those
being crucified to suffer in a state of stupefaction, which He refused to do.
It was given to criminals out of kindness, but was an insult to the Holy One.
John 19:28 also fulfilled Psalm 69:21, 22:15 when he uttered the words, "I
thirst."

>miraculous that Jesus would make such a statement.  Presumably 
>Jesus was familiar with the Hebrew scriptures.  Such a remark, 
>however, is inconsistent with Christian theology.  Why would 
>Jesus, supposed to be God incarnate, speak of being forsaken by 
>himself at all, let alone at the culmination of his plan for human 
>salvation?  It is also not apparent that Psalms 22 is either

Jesus was the physical manifestation of the Godhead.  The expressive repetition
of the cry "My God", implies that Jesus clung firmly to this truth.  God was
still His God, in spite of all contrary events.  This cry turned the attention
of the people back to Psalm 22.  Christ was quoting the first verse of the Psalm
and this Psalm is a clear prophecy of the crucifixion.

>	A final prophecy I wish to examine relating to the 
>crucifixion is that Jesus' bones would not be broken.  It is only 
>the gospel of John (19:32-36) which tells of soldiers breaking the 
>legs of the crucifixion victims to hasten their deaths, yet 

See also Psalm 22:14,17.  The disjointing of bones while on the cross by the
hands and feet easily happened.  All His bones could easily be seen whiling
hanging on the cross because of the extension of His body.

>paschal lamb (e.g., John 1:29, 36).  A requirement of the paschal 
>lamb is that none of its bones be broken (Exodus 12:46, Numbers 
>9:12).  But this analogy fails for several reasons:  the paschal 
>lamb was not for the atonement of sin, and Jewish sacrifices were 
>required to be completely without blemish, sore, or injury 
>(Leviticus 22:20-25) while Jesus was scourged and mutilated (John

Jesus Christ was spiritually pure and the only possible sacrificial Lamb that
could solve a spiritual problem.

Conclusions

>possibility of intentional fulfillment.  (For example, a Messiah 
>claimant might hire a John-the-Baptist-style messenger to precede 
>him, or intentionally ride a donkey into the city of Jerusalem.)

Jesus Christ didn't have the finances to hire someone to help out in fulfilling
all 332 prophecies.  Only God could pull off something of this magnitude in a
single person.

>Jesus.  Instead, the purported prophecies appear to be the result 
>of deliberate attempts by the gospel writers and Christian 
>apologists to find post hoc similarities between events described 
>in the New Testament and the Hebrew scriptures.  Messianic 
>prophecies, contrary to apologists, do not provide evidence for 
>Christian faith.

That's quite a leap of logic there.  

>[1] It could be argued (and has been argued by Jews at least since 
>the third century) that Jesus led Jews astray from their religion and was 
>therefore a false prophet.  See Sanhedrin 43a in the Babylonian 
>Talmud (Epstein 1935, p. 281).

but the fact was that He came to abolish the Law and initiate the New Covenant.
His resurrection proved it.

>[3] The gospel of John says nothing about Jesus being from 
>Bethlehem, but instead says that he is from Nazareth in Galilee.  
>See John 1:45-46 and 7:41-42,52.

He was born in Bethlehem during the census.  You were required to return to the
House of your ancestors for the census.  He was raised in Nazareth, where they
returned after the census.  The genealogy was already addressed.

This is my final installment on this debate.  Hopefully, it was beneficial to
you and/or answer some of your questions.

regards,
Mike

    Is there a passage that describes Jesus as being able to be in heaven
    and on earth simultaneously?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    From what my current understanding is, only in the person of the Holy
    Spirit, so in a sense, He is both here, and in heaven at the same time.
    But at the same time, He is also seated at the right hand of the Father, 
    awaiting the moment the Father tells Him to return.
    
    John 14:16, John 14:26 John 15:26, and John 16:7, all where Jesus
    speaks of His leaving, and the Holy Spirit, (Comforter) being here,
    that He may abide with us forever, teaching bringing all things to
    remembrance, testifying of Jesus, and much more than I could ever begin
    to expound upon.
    
    Hope that helps.
    
    Bob

    How about John 3:10-13?

    Do you mean specifically...?
    
    Vs 13. And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that came down from
    heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.
    
    Was he talking in present-future tense? The word "in" in the original
    greek gives reference to the present participle. But at the same time,
    he actually was physically on the earth, speaking these words. 
    
    Could be, but is this somehow a reference to the Trinity? Jesus often
    spoke of "The Father and I are one", and "If you have seen me, you have
    seen the Father". I'm not going to try to explain that which I don't
    think it is given unto men to understand. Good one! I'll research this
    one further over the weekend. The laptop version of On-line Bible is
    getting an "abort/retry/fail" error on trying to find the cross
    references on this verse. Perhaps God would be willing to "shed
    some light" on this question, using the version on the home PC, and
    especially some prayer!
    
    Bob                    
    

    Mike,
    
    After doing some research, these are the cross-reference verses
    associated to John 3:13. Please pardon me for not entering all the
    text, but there were too many to type them all.
    
    John 1:18 John 6:46 Deuteronomy 30:12 Proverbs 30:4 Acts 2:34 Romans 10:6
    Epesians 4:9 John 6:33 John 6:51 John 6:62 John 8:42 John 13:3 John 16:28
    John 17:5 1 Corinthians 15:47 Matthew 28:20 Mark 16:19 Acts 20:28
    and Ephesians 4:10.
    
    Not all of these seem to relate to what you're looking for, but many
    do. This search took me off on another path, as in Colossians 1:27,
    Christ in us, the hope of glory. This, and the others I'll list below,
    speak of the manifestation of Christ, in our own personal lives. Surely
    these are Jesus, both on earth, and in heaven, where we know He is, at
    this moment, awaiting the command from God the Father to return.
    
    John 6:56 Ephesians 3:17 Romans 8:10 Galations 2:20 Galations 1:16
    John 14:20, and John 14:23.
    
    There are more, but these seemed the most relevant. This brings me to a
    question I've wanted to discuss, but have waited until what seems to be
    Gods timing in the matter.
    
    Jesus Christ. His first name (Greek) Iesous, (ee-ay-sooce) means
    Jehovah is salvation. His last name wasn't Christ. (Greek) Christos
    (khris-tos), meaning "anointed". Back in those days, he was called "Jesus 
    of Nazereth" He is Lord of Lords, and King of Kings. We are Christians. The
    term was first used in Acts 11:26. (Greek) Chrisianos (khris-tee-an-os),
    therefore we are the "anointed ones, in Jesus". The American Heritage
    dictionary defines anoint, as 1) To apply oil, ointment, or a similiar
    substance to. 2) To put oil on as a sign of sanctification or
    consecration in a religious ceremony. The Holy Spirit is often called
    the oil, as in us, the oil of our lamps.
    
    God's desire, is to transform us into the image of His dear son. Jesus said
    "greater things shall we do, because he goes to the Father". Do you 
    currently know of anyone who is doing "greater things" than Jesus did? I 
    think God is in the process of raising up an army of "Jesus people", who 
    will, in God's timing, be used mightily, as God's desire and will, is 
    carried out on the earth, and the devil, and the gates of hell, shall not 
    prevail against them. Thoughts?
    
    In His love, by His Grace,
    
    Bob           

>    God's desire, is to transform us into the image of His dear son. Jesus said
>    "greater things shall we do, because he goes to the Father". Do you 
>    currently know of anyone who is doing "greater things" than Jesus did?

I'll guess that most people see this largely from the scope of walking
on water, feeding many with little, healing withered limbs, and the like,
I wonder if this is the focus Jesus meant.

Jesus also said, "He who would be greatest among you, must be servant of all."
And proceeded to live out this declaration by "being among you as one who
serves."

Mark

    One interesting verse is John 17:5.  Reference it with Isaiah 42:8 and
    it's pretty obvious that Jesus is God.

Good thing to wonder about. Let's see what the original text says.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do
shall he do also, and greater works than these shall he do, because I go to my
Father.

Well, we know we fit the criteria, as we are those that believe on Jesus. This
word, in the original is pisteuo (pist-yoo-o) meaning: 

To think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in.

Works, or ergon (er'-gon) has these three meanings:

1) business, employment, that which any one is occupied.
 1a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, or anything accomplished by hand, art, industry, or
mind.
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that
which is than work

shall he do, poieo (poy-eh'o)

1 to make
 1a) with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc
 1b) to be the authors of, the cause
 1c) to make ready, to prepare
 1d) to produce, bear, shoot forth
 1e) to aquire, to provide a thing for one's self
 1f) to make a thing out of something
 1g) to (make, i.e.) render one anything
  1g1) to (make, i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain
       one that
  1g2) to (make, i.e.) declare one anything
 1h) to put one forth, to lead him out
 1i) to make one do something
  1i1) cause one to
 1j) to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about)
2) to do
 2a) to act rightly, do well
  2a1) to carry out, to execute
 2b) to do a thing unto one
  2b1) to do to one
 2c) with designation of time: to pass, spend
 2d) to celebrate, keep
  2d1) to make ready, and so at the time to institute, the celebration of the
       passover
 2e) to perform: to a promise

And that brings us to vs 13,

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be 
glorified in the Son.

Pretty heavy stuff. If we ask anything, (according to God's will) He will do it.
So, I would say yes, it does have to do with the healing, casting out of devils,
and (maybe) even walking on water. I have a friend who said he would believe
if he saw someone walk on water. Or other things in the realm of the miraculous.
And I know the verse that said something like "no signs will be given to this
evil and perverse generation", but that was then, this is now.

Recommended reading, John 17, the prayer Jesus asked of the Father. Does anyone
think God the Father would NOT answer such a prayer? Especially considering who
prayed it? Perhaps it is close to time that He does just that.

Glory to God!

Bob

>Recommended reading, John 17, the prayer Jesus asked of the Father. Does anyone
>think God the Father would NOT answer such a prayer? Especially considering who
>prayed it? Perhaps it is close to time that He does just that.
    
    ...or perhaps His glory was returned to Him at the resurrection.

    BTW - how do you answer those that don't support the Trinity concept
    and ask, "Why would Jesus pray to Himself?" 

re -1

>>    ...or perhaps His glory was returned to Him at the resurrection.

I don't think so, seeing John 17:22:

And the glory which thou hast given to me I have given to them; that they may be
one, as we are one.

Imagine that!!! Jesus prayed we would have the same standing in God's eyes that
He did. Kind of gives backing to the teachings I've heard in the past of God
loving us just as much as He does Jesus. Absolutely phenomenal.

John 10:30

I and my Father are one.

One - Greek = heis ((hice)

1) one

The Concise American Heritage Dictionary defines one as:

1) Being a single entity or being; single;individual
2) as a single kind or nature, undivided
3) Designating an unspecified person or thing
4) single in kind, alike or the same

Only God could do such a great and marvelous thing. And I believe he will, 
perhaps even in our lives, depending on the level of commitment we have made
to God.

>>  BTW - how do you answer those that don't support the Trinity concept
    and ask, "Why would Jesus pray to Himself?"

I'd tell them they err, not knowing the scriptures. The trinity can be explained
in this way. We were made in God's image. We ARE a spirit, we have a soul, and
we live in a body (like an "earth-suit"). 

If God had decided to express Himself in 30 ways, it is His business. For the
purpose of His relationships with mankind, He decided to be 3 in 1, or/and 1 in
3. Although He is known by many names in the Old Testament, depending on the
need of the moment.

Also, Jesus said the Father is greater than He is, in John 14:28.

Gratefully in His service, as His son (adopted), and by His grace, a servant of
all.

Bob

�>>    ...or perhaps His glory was returned to Him at the resurrection.
�
�I don't think so, seeing John 17:22:
    
    If Jesus is God (and I believe He is), why wouldn't he have the glory
    he prayed for in John 17:5?

Oh, I'm sure He does. In many songs, most in mind is "to God be the Glory", God
receives the glory from His Children. And in prayer..."and thine is the kingdom,
and the glory, and the power, forever." And in service of His children, as in
Matthew 5:16:

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and
glorify your Father who is in heaven.

Let's look at what glory is.

Glory (greek) doxa (dox'-ah")

1) opinion, judgement, view
2) opinion, estimate, whether good or bad concerning someone
 2a) in the NT always a good opinion concerning someone resulting in praise,    
     honour, and glory
3) splendor, brightness
 3a) of the moon, sun, stars
 3b) magnificence, excellence, preeminance, dignity, grace
 3c) majesty
  3c1) a thing belonging to God
    3c1a) the kingly majesty which belongs to Him as supreme ruler, majesty in  
          the sense of the absolute perfection of the diety
    3c2)  a thing belonging to Christ
      3c2a) the kingly majesty of the Messiah
      3c2b) the absolutely perfect inward or personal excellency of Christ
    3c3) of the angels
     3c3a) as apparent in their exterior brightness
4) a most glorious condition, most exalted state
 4a) of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised 
      after He had acheived his work on earth.
 4b) the glorious condition of blessedness into which is appointed and promised
     that true Christians shall enter after their Saviour's return from heaven

It's just like Jesus to share his glory, love, faith, hope, and all else He is
with those who love Him.I hope that helps you, because it sure helped me!

Bob

The following is a collection of scriptures that I originally put together in
1986 for a bible study on the Deity of Christ.  The discussion in note 650
motivated me to post this. 

(Moderators, please feel free to move this if appropriate.)

NOTE:  The following reply is 727 lines long.

           ------ Notes on the Deity of Jesus Christ ------

[All quotes from the New American Standard Bible (NASB).  Tetragrammaton
rendered as YHWH in this study (where NASB normally substitutes "the LORD") 
for emphasis in distinguishing between the divine name for God in the Old
Testament, and the Hebrew <adonai>, which literally means "lord".] 

Ultimately, God is incomprehensible to human minds

	"'Can you discover the depths of God?  Can you discover the limits
	of the Almighty?'"  (Job 11:7)

	"'For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Neither are your ways My 
	ways,' declares YHWH.  For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
	So are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your 
	thoughts."  (Isaiah 55:8-9)

	(Also see Job 42:2-6, Psalm 145:3, Isaiah 40:13, Romans 11:33)

But we must not put limits on what God can do

	"...all things are possible with God."  (Mark 10:27)

	"'I know that you can do all things...'"  (Job 42:2)

Jesus Christ was either God, or not "good" -- we must choose.

	"And as He was setting out on a journey, a man ran up to Him and
	knelt before Him, and began asking Him, 'Good Teacher, what shall
	I do to inherit eternal life?'  And Jesus said to him, 'Why do
	you call me good?  No one is good except God alone.'" (Mark 10:17-18)

Jesus Christ is God.

	"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the
	Word was God"  (John 1:1) 

He was the original Creator of the heavens and the earth.
 
	"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came
	into being that has come into being." (John 1:3)

	"For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and the 
	earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers
	or authorities -- all things have been created by Him and for Him.
	And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
	(Col 1:16-17)

Jesus lowered Himself, was exhalted.

	"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us..." (John 1:14)

	"...who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard 
	equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself [i.e. 
	laid aside His privileges], taking the form of a bond-servant, 
	being made in the likeness of men.  And being found in appearance
	as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of 
	death, even death on a cross.  Therefore also God highly exhalted
	Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that 
	at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in
	heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue
	should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
	Father.  (Phil 2:5-11)

Jesus' position on earth was of voluntary submission to the Father, setting 
aside many of His privileges to act as God.

	"'...the Father is greater than I.'"  (John 14:28)

Jesus' nature and equality with God is not denied, even by Jesus

	"For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill
	Him, because He was not only breaking the Sabbath, but also he was
	calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18)

	"'I and the Father are one.'  The Jews took up stones again to stone 
	Him.  Jesus answered them, 'I showed you many good works from the 
	Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?'  The Jews answered
	Him, 'For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and
	because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.'  [Rather
	than correct them, Jesus then proceeds to reinforce his claim,
	followed by the Jews again seeking to seize him]  (John 10:30-39)

	"'I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father
	except through Me.  If you had known Me, you would have known My
	Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.'  Phillip
	said to Him, 'Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.'
	Jesus said to him, 'Have I been so long with you, and yet you have
	not come to know Me, Phillip?  He who has seen Me has seen the Father;
	how do you say, "Show us the Father"?  (John 14:6-9)

	"For in Him all the fulness of Deity dwells in bodily form"  (Col 2:9)	

	"Thomas answered and said to Him, 'My Lord and my God!'  Jesus said
	to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed?  Blessed are
	they who did not see, and yet believed."  (John 20:28-29)

He resumed his position of "all authority" after the resurrection

	"'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'" 
	(Matt 28:18)

Jesus' name implies Deity

	"'Behold, the virgin will be with child, and shall bear a Son, and 
	they shall call His name Immanuel' [Isaiah 7:14], which translated
	means, 'God with us'".  (Matt 1:23)

Old Testament prophecies of coming Messiah imply Deity

	"...His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."
	(Micah 5:2)

	"...And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
	Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  (Isaiah 9:6)

Jesus is YHWH, the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 (<EGO EIMI> of NT and Greek Septuagint)

	"Then Moses said to God, 'Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel,
	and I shall say to them, "The God of your fathers has sent me to you."
	Now they may say to me, "What is His name?"  What shall I say to them?'
	And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, 'Thus you shall
	say to the sons of Israel, "I AM has sent me to you."'  And God, 
	furthermore, said to Moses, 'Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel,
	"YHWH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
	and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you."  This is my name forever,
	and is My memorial-name to all generations.'"  (Exodus 3:13-15)

	"'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless
	you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'"  (John 8:24)

	"'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'  
	Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him..."  (John 8:58-59)

	"Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him,
	went forth and said to them, 'Whom do you seek?'  They answered Him,
	'Jesus the Nazarene.'  He said to them, "I AM."  And Judas also who
	was betraying Him, was standing with them.  When therefore He said
	to them, "I AM", they drew back and fell to the ground."  (John 18:4-6)

References in Old Testament to YHWH find fulfillment in Jesus of New Testament.

OT	"A voice is calling, 'Clear the way for YHWH in the wilderness; make
	smooth in the desert a highway for our God."  (Isaiah 40:3)

NT	"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb 
	of God who takes away the sin of the world.'"  (John 1:29)

OT	"'In that day YHWH will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem... they
	will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him,
	as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him,
	like the bitter weeping over a first-born.'"  (Zech 12:8-10)

NT	"Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him,
	even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will 
	mourn over Him.  (Rev 1:7)

OT	"Then YHWH will go forth and fight against those nations, as when
	He fights on a day of battle.  And in that day His feet will stand
	on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east..."
	(Zech 14:3-4)

NT	"And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were
	looking on, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.  And as they
	were gazing intently into the sky while He was departing, behold, two
	men in white clothing stood beside them; and they also said, 'Men of
	Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky?  This Jesus, who has
	been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as
	you have watched Him go into heaven.'  Then they returned to Jerusalem
	from the hill called the Mount of Olives, which is near Jerusalem..."
	(Acts 1:9-12)

OT	"'And it will come about  that whoever calls on the name of YHWH will
	be delivered.'"  (Joel 2:32)

NT	"...that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in
	your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved...
	for whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
	(Romans 10:9,13)

Also, see

	Psalm 23:1, Isaiah 40:11 --> John 10:1-14, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 2:25,5:4
	Psalm 50:1-6 --> 2 Thess 1:7-10
	Psalm 68:15-18 --> Eph 4:8
	Psalm 102:1,12,25-27 --> Heb 1:10-12
	Isaiah 8:12-15 --> 1 Pet 2:8
	Isaiah 43:3 --> Acts 3:14
	Isaiah 44:6 --> Rev 1:7,8,17,18,2:8,22:13
	Isaiah 45:22,23 --> Rom 14:9-12, 2 Cor 5:10, Phil 2:10
	Isaiah 62:11,12 --> Rev 22:12
	Jer 11:12,17:10,20:12 --> Rev 2:23

Jesus was called "God" by apostles

	"...and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)

	"Thomas answered and said to him, 'My Lord and My God!'"  (John 20:28)

	"No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the
	bosom of the Father, He has explained Him."  (John 1:18)

	"'Be on guard for yourselves and all the flock, among which the Holy
	Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He
	purchased with His own blood.'"  (Acts 20:28)

	"But of the Son, He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and
	the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.  Thou hast loved
	righteousness and hated lawnessnesss; therefore God, thy God, hath 
	anointed Thee...' [Psalm 45:6-7]" (Hebrews 1:8-9)

	"...looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of
	our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave Himself for us, that
	He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a 
	people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."  (Titus 2:13-14)

	"...by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ." 
	(1 Peter 1:1)

	"And they said, 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you shall be saved, you
	and your household.' --> ...and rejoiced greatly, having believed in
	God with his whole household."  (Acts 16:31,34)

	"But the man from whom the demons had gone out was begging Him that
	he might accompany Him; but He sent him away, saying, "Return to your
	house and describe what great things God has done for you."  And he
	went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things
	Jesus had done for him.  (Luke 8:38-39)

Both Jesus and God are the "First and the Last"
	
YHWH:	"This is what YHWH says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, YHWH Almighty:
	 I am the first, and I am the last; apart from me there is no God."
	 (Isaiah 44:6)

YHWH:	"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called:  I am he;  I am
	 the first and I am the last.  My own hand laid the foundations of
	 the earth,..." (Isaiah 48:12-13)

Jesus:	"Do not be afraid.  I am the First and the Last.  I am the Living One;
	 I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever!"  (Rev 1:17)

Jesus:	"...These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died
	 and came to life again."  (Rev 2:8)

Both Jesus and God are the "Alpha and the Omega"  (first and last letters of
the Greek alphabet)

God:	"I am the Alpha and the Omega", says the Lord God, "who is, and who
	 was, and who is to come, the Almighty."  (Rev 1:8)

God:	 He said to me:  "It is done.  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the
	 Beginning and the End.  To him who is thirsty I will give to drink
	 without cost from the spring of the water of life.  He who overcomes
	 will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son."
	 (Rev 21:6-7)

Jesus:	"Behold, I am coming soon!  My reward is with me, and I will give to
	 everyone according to what he has done.  I am the Alpha and the Omega,
	 the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."  (Rev 22:12-13)

Both Jesus and God are the "Savior"

God:	"'For I am YHWH your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior...'"
	(Isaiah 43:3)

God:	"'I, even I, am YHWH; And there is no savior besides Me.'" 
	(Isaiah 43:11)

God:	"'And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior'" (Luke 1:47)

God:	"For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our
	hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
	believers."  (1 Tim 4:10)

Jesus:  "And she will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for it
	is He who will save His people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)

Jesus:	"for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior,
	who is Christ the Lord."  (Luke 2:11)

Jesus:	"'...for we have heard for ourselves and know that this one is indeed 
	the Savior of the world."  (John 4:42)

Jesus:  "'And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name
	under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.'"
	(Acts 4:12)

Both Jesus and God are the "King"

God:	"For YHWH is a great God, and a great King above all gods."
	(Psalm 95:3)

God:	"'I am YHWH, your Holy One, the Creator of Israel, your King.'"
	(Isaiah 43:15)

God:	"But YHWH is the true God; He is the living God and the everlasting
	King..." (Jer 10:10)

God:	"And YHWH will be king over all the earth; in that day YHWH will be
	the only one."  (Zech 14:9)

Jesus:  "'Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?'"  (Matt 2:2)

Jesus:	"...He who is the blessed and only Soveriegn, the King of kings and
	Lord of lords..."  (1 Tim 6:15)

Jesus:	"These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome 
	them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings..." (Rev 17:14)

Jesus:  "And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF
	KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."  (Rev 19:16)

Both Jesus and God are "Judge"

God:	"...For God Himself is Judge."  (Psalm 50:6)

God:	"Before YHWH, for He is coming to judge the earth..."  (Psalm 96:13

God:	"...For we whall all stand before the judgment seat of God." 
	(Rom 14:10)

Jesus:	"'For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all 
	judgement to the Son,"  (John 5:22)

Jesus:	"For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ..."
	(1 Cor 5:10)

Both Jesus and God are the "Light"

God:	"For Thou art my lamp, O YHWH; and YHWH illuminates my darkness."
	(2 Sam 22:29)

God:	"YHWH is my light and my salvation..."  (Psalm 27:1)

Jesus:	"In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.  And the light
	shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
	(John 1:4-5)

Jesus:	"There was the true light which, coming into the world, enlightens
	every man." (John 1:9)

Jesus:	"Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, 'I am the light of the
	world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall 
	have the light of life.'" (John 8:12)

Both Jesus and God are the "Rock"

God:	"'For I proclaim the name of YHWH; ascribe greatness to our God!  
	The Rock!  His work is perfect..." (Deut 32:4-5)

God:	"'For who is God, besides YHWH?  And who is a rock, besides our God?'"
	(2 Sam 22:32)

God:	"'He will cry to me, "Thou art my Father, My God, and the rock of
	my salvation."'" (Psalm 89:26)

God:	"'It is YHWH of hosts whom you should regard as holy.  And He shall be
	your fear, and he shall be your dread.  Then He shall become a 
	sanctuary; But to both the houses of Israel, a stone to strike and a
	rock to stumble over.  And a snare and a trap for the inhabitants of
	Jerusalem.'"  (Isaiah 8:13-14)

Jesus:	"Therefore says YHWH God, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a 
	tested stone, a costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed.
	He who believes in it will not be disturbed.'" (Isaiah 28:16)

Jesus:	"...upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades
	will not overpower it." (Matt 16:18)

Jesus:  "He is the stone which was rejected by you, the builders, which became
	the very cornerstone."  (Acts 4:11)

Jesus:	"...for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them,
	and that rock was Christ." (1 Cor 10:4)

Both Jesus and God are the "Redeemer"

God:	"'Thus says YHWH, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel..." 
	(Isaiah 48:17)

God:	"...And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel..."  (Isaiah 54:5)

Jesus:	"In Him we have redemption through His blood..."  (Eph 1:7)

Jesus:	"...He entered  the holy place once for all, having obtained
	eternal redemption."  (Heb 9:12)

Both Jesus and God are "Husband"

God:	"'For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is YHWH of hosts;...'"
	(Isaiah 54:5)

God:	"'And it will come about in that day,' declares YHWH, 'that you 
	will call me Ishi [i.e. my husband] and will no longer call me
	Baali [i.e. my Master].'"  (Hosea 2:16)

Jesus:	"'Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins,
	who took their lamps, and went out to meet the bridegroom.'"
	(Matt 25:1)

Jesus:	"'...So long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot
	fast.  But the days will come when the bridegroom is taken away 
	from them, and then they will fast in that day'" (Mark 2:29-20)

Jesus:	"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed
	you to one husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure
	virgin."  (2 Cor 11:2)

Jesus:	"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church
	and gave Himself up for her"  (Eph 5:25)

Jesus:	"'Let us rejoice and be glad and give the glory to Him, for the
	marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself
	ready.'"  (Rev 19:7)

Jesus:	"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven
	from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband."  (Rev 21:2)

Jesus:	"'Come here, I shall show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb'"
	(Rev 21:9)

Both Jesus and God are the "Shepherd"

God:	"YHWH is my shepherd.  I shall not want."  (Psalm 23:1)

God:	"Oh give ear, Shepherd of Israel..."  (Psalm 80:1)

God:	"Know that YHWH Himself is God; it is He who has made us, and not
	we ourselves.  We are His people and the sheep of His pasture."
	(Psalm 100:1)

God:	"Like a shepherd He will tend His flock, in His arm He will gather
	the lambs, and carry them in His bosom; He will gently lead the
	nursing ewes."  (Isaiah 40:10)

Jesus:	"'I am the good shepherd; and I know My own, and My own know Me'"
	(John 10:11)

Jesus:	"Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great 
	Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant,
	Jesus our Lord"  (Heb 13:20)

Jesus:	"For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have 
	returned to the Shepherd and Guardian of your souls."  (1 Peter 2:25)

Jesus:	"And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading
	crown of glory."  (1 Peter 5:4)

Both Jesus and God are the "Creator"

God:	"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."  (Gen 1:1)
	
God:	"'Of old Thou didst found the earth; and the heavens are the work of
	Thy hands.'"  (Psalm 102:25)

God:	"...The Everlasting God, YHWH, the Creator of the ends of the earth..."
	(Isaiah 40:28)

God:	"'...I, YHWH, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens
	by myself, and spreading out the earth all alone.'"  (Isaiah 44:24)

Jesus:	"All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came
	into being."  (John 1:3)

Jesus:	"For by him all things were created, both in the heavens and the 
	earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers
	or authorities -- all things have been created by Him and for Him.
	And he is before all things, and in Him all things hold together"
	(Col 1:16-17)

Jesus:	"Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth.
	And the heavens are the works of thy hands;"  (Heb 1:10)

Jesus:  "For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so
	much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house.  For
	every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God."
	(Heb 3:3-4)

Both Jesus and God are the giver of life

God:	"'See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me; it is
	I who put to death and give life...'"  (Deut 32:39)

God:	"'YHWH kills and makes alive; He brings down to Sheol and raises up.'"
	(1 Sam 2:6)

Jesus:	"'For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even
	so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes." (John 5:21)

Jesus:	"...I myself will raise him up on the last day."  (John 6:40)

Jesus:	"...and I give eternal life to them..."  (John 10:28)

Jesus:	"I am the resurrection and the life"  (John 11:25)

Jesus:	"'...and you are unwilling to come to me, that you may have life.'"
	(John 5:40)

Jesus had authority to raise even Himself from the dead

	"'Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up'...He
	was speaking of the temple of His body." (John 2:19,21)

	"'For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life
	that I may take it again.  No one has taken it away from Me, but
	I lay it down on My own initiative.  I have authority to take it up
	again.  This commandment I received from My Father.'"  (John 10:17-18)

Jesus has authority to forgive sins -- only God can forgive sins

	"And Jesus, seeing their faith said to the paralytic, 'My son, 
	your sins are forgiven.'  But there were some of the scribes sitting 
	there and reasoning in their hearts, 'Why does this man speak that
	way?  He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?'"
	(Mark 2:5-7)

	"...He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all 
	our transgressions,"  (Col 2:13)

Jesus received worship -- only God can receive worship

	"'...For it is written [Deut 6:13] "You shall worship the Lord 
	your God, and serve Him only"'"  (Matt 4:10)

	Barnabas and Paul rebuked people for worshipping them (Acts 14:11-18)

	Angels refuse worship (Rev 19:10, Rev 22:9)

	Angels commanded to worship Jesus (Hebrews 1:6)

	"'Where is He who has been born King of the Jews?  For we saw His
	star in the east, and have come to worship Him.'"  (Matt 2:2)

	"...and they fell down and worshipped Him; and opening their treasures
	they presented to Him gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh."
	(Matt 1:11)

	"And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them.  And they came up and 
	took ahold of His feet and worshipped Him."  (Matt 28:9)

	"And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him..."  (Matt 28:17)

	"And he said, 'Lord, I believe.'  And he worshiped Him." (John 9:38)


Jesus is omnipresent (Is present everywhere at the same time)

	"'For where two or three have gathered together in My name, there 
	I am in their midst.'"  (Matt 18:20)

	"(Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that
	He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?  He who 
	descended is Himself He who ascended far above all the heavens, that
	He might fill all things.)"  (Eph 4:9-10)

Jesus is omniscient (Is all-knowing)

	"'Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone
	to question You; by this we believe that You came from God.'"
	(John 16:30)

	"'...Lord, you know all things...'"  (John 21:17)

Jesus is omnipotent (Is all-powerful)

	"'All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth'"
	(Matt 28:18)

Jesus is pre-existant (Existed before all things)

	"'I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am
	leaving the world again, and going to the Father."  (John 16:28)

	"He was in the beginning with God."  (John 1:2)

	"'And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the
	glory which I had with Thee before the world was.'"  (John 17:5)

Jesus is eternal (beyond the limits of time)

	"...And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
	Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace."  (Isaiah 9:6)

	"...His goings forth are from long ago, from the days of eternity."
	(Micah 5:2)

	"'Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.'  
	(John 8:58)

	"...and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His 
	kingdom will have no end."  (Luke 1:33)

	"Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither 
	beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God,
	he [Melchizedek] abides a priest perpetually."  (Heb 7:3)

Jesus is immutable (does not change)

	"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes and forever."
	(Heb 13:8)

Jesus spoke with authority

	"Truly, Truly I say unto you..."  (not "Thus saith the Lord")

	"'Consequently, the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.'"
	(Mark 2:28)

	"'Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and
	scribes...'"  (Matt 23:34)

	"'If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.'" (John 14:14)

	"follow Me."  (not just "follow God")

Disciples prayed to Jesus

	"And the went on stoning Steven as he called upon the Lord and
	said, 'Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!'  And falling on his knees,
	he cried out with a lound voice, 'Lord, do not hold this sin 
	against them!'  And having said this, he fell asleep."  (Acts 7:59-60)

	"Concerning this I entreated the Lord three times that it [thorn
	in flesh] might depart from me.  And He has said to me, 'My grace
	is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.'  Most
	gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, that
	the power of Christ may dwell in me."  (2 Cor 12:8-9)

	"These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the
	Son of God, in order that you may know that you have eternal life.
	And this is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we
	ask anything according to His will, He hears us."  (1 John 5:13-14)

	"'Therefore repent of this wickedness of yours, and pray the Lord
	that if possible, the intention of your heart may be forgiven you.
	For I wee that you are in the gall of bitterness and in the bondage
	of iniquity.'  But Simon answered and said, 'Pray to the Lord for 
	me yourselves, so that nothing of what you have said may come upon
	me'" (Acts 8:22-24) [In verse 16, Jesus is the "Lord"]

Problem scripture:

	"Hear, O Israel!  YHWH is our God.  YHWH is one!"  (Deut 6:4)

Expl:	Hebrew word for "one" is <achad>, which means "united" one, rather
	than <yachid>, which means "only" one.  <achad> is same word used 
	in Gen 2:24 "For this cause a man shall leave his father and his
	mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one
	flesh"

Problem scriptures:

	"the Father is greater than I"
	Jesus didn't know "day or hour" of his return
	Jesus prayed to the Father
	etc.

Expl:	Jesus lowered Himself while on earth, giving up many of his privileges
	as God.  Jesus provided example to men about how to lead a perfect
	human life.  Jesus was both perfect God and perfect man.

Problem scripture:

	Jesus was "begotten"

Expl:	"begotten" does not mean "created".  What God begets is "God", just as
	what man begets is "man" and what animal begets is "animal".  What
	God creates is not God (e.g. man, angels), and what man creates is not
	man (e.g. house, computer).

Problem scripture:

	Jesus was the "firstborn of all creation" (Col 1:15)

Expl:	Word used for "firstborn" is <prototokos>, not <protoktistos>, which
	means "first-created".  "Firstborn" can mean either literal "first 
	person born", or "pre-eminent" one.  In Jewish culture, the literal 
	"firstborn" male normally inherited the position of pre-eminence 
	("heir", "first in rank").  [See Jeremiah 31:9 -- "Ephraim is my
	first-born".  Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim, and Manasseh
	was the literal firstborn (Gen 41:50-52).  In Genesis 48, Ephaim is
	given title of "firstborn".  Also see Psalm 89:27 which says that 
	God will appoint Jesus as "firstborn" -- verb is future tense, thus
	Jesus "firstborn-ness" must have been bestowed upon Him after Psalm
	was written.

Problem scripture:

	Jesus said he was the "beginning of the creation of God" (Rev 3:14)

Expl:	Greek word for "beginning" is <arche>, which can also mean "source"
	or "origin".  <arche> is used in Rev 21:6 "I am the Alpha and the
	Omega, the beginning and the end", and in John 1:1 "In the beginning
	was the Word...".

Problem scripture:

	"God said, 'Let us make man in Our image'..."  (Gen 1:26)

Expl:	The word for "God" in the Hebrew is <Elohim>, which is plural.  We
	know that no "seperate being" participated with God, because Isaiah 
	44:24 teaches us that YHWH was alone when He created the universe, that
	He did it by Himself.  

Problem scripture:

	"No man has seen God at any time..."  (John 1:18)

Expl:	Careful examination of the passage yields one of two possible
	interpretations:  1.  It is the "Father" being referred to in the
	first part of the sentence.  2.  The passage is stating that no one
	has seen God in His entirety.  Remember that God manifested Himself
	physically to men many times in the Old Testament.

Problem scripture:

	"Why do you call me 'good'?  No one is good except God"  (Mark 10:18)

Expl:	Jesus was 'good' -- there was nothing 'bad' about Him.  Therefore he
	must be either be God, or He is not 'good'.  Jesus is challenging us 
	to evaluate what we think about Him.  Perceiving Him as a "good 
	teacher" is not good enough.  We must believe that He is God.  And 
	following "God" is not good enough.  Jesus said in verse 21:  

		"...follow Me"

    I did a dir search and a key word search and couldn't find Shroud of
    Turin references. This topic, perhaps, came closest. Posted in today's
    Vogon News, was an article on how the 8th century date of the Shroud
    and it's not being the actual burial shroud of Christ may be in error.
    I can't post the whole article, but the gist was that over time
    microbial buildup and a secretion these microbes give off, may have
    coated the Shroud and that the date given was not the actual age of the
    Shroud, but the age of the mixture of the cellulose (main structure of
    linen) and the microbe stuff. The scientists would like to retest the
    shroud after cleaning the samples with a type of "bleach" common to
    that time period. They would get a better idea of the true age of the
    Shroud itself. Just an interesting article that I thought folks in here
    might like to read.
    
    Vogon News is available on VTX (VTX VNS to access) Then the numerical
    selection for June 16, 1995 and then the Technology Watch selection(s)
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

    I saw it, but it doesn't matter to me.  When you stand on the
    foundation of God's Word instead of traditions not much else seems to
    matter.
    
    Mike

    Mike, I understand your statement about it not mattering. When one has
    the utmost faith in Jesus and through him, God, then these things don't
    matter. I thought it was interesting from the POV of the doubt cast on
    the authenticity of the Shroud and now possible proof to refute that
    doubt or show the error in the doubt may come to light. That's if more
    samples of the shroud are allowed to be used to test. I understand that
    it took years to obtain the first samples. Just interesting is all. No
    great revealations, especially for those who believe.
    
    Bright Blessings,
    
    PJ

Thanks for sharing the information on the shroud of Turin PJ.

Leslie

VNS TECHNOLOGY WATCH:                     [W. Stuart Crippen, VNS Correspondent]
=====================                     [Marlboro, MA, USA                   ]

		      Microbes muddle Shroud of Turin's age
		      -------------------------------------

        From Science News, June 3, 1995, Vol. 147, No. 22, Pg 346
	Author - J. Travis

    In the interplay between science and religion, science usually sides 
    with the skeptics.  But now a bit of microbial science suggests that
    skeptics have too quickly dismissed the possibility that the Shroud of
    Turin might be the burial cloth of Jesus Christ, as many believe. 

    In the 1980s, researchers examined samples from the shroud for the 
    presence of carbon-14, a radioactive atom that decays over time.  The
    amount found, they concluded, pegged the linen cloth as medieval, less
    than 700 years old. 

    But microbes may have interfered with those dating results, making the 
    shroud appear younger than it actually is, asserts a research team led
    by Stepthen J. Mattingly and Leoncia A. Garza-Valdes of the University
    of Texas at San Antonio. 

    The group has for years studied how various microbes can coat artifacts 
    and natural objects with "biogenic varnishes," plasticlike coatings
    synthesized by bacteria or fungi.  From microscopic examination of small
    samples of the shroud, they recently concluded that some of these same
    varnishes coat the line fibers. 

    Further examination of bits of fabric by two techniques, infrared 
    spectroscopy and mass spectroscopy, indicated that the samples were not
    pure cellulose, linen's main constituent.  The Texas team next found
    that their samples harbored a number of microbes - specifically, ones
    that have been found to grow in natron, a bleaching agent that may have
    been used on the cloth in the past. 

    Past radiocarbon dating, suggest Mattingly and Garza-Valdes, could not 
    distinguish between the linen's cellulose and the microbes and their
    coating, which may be of much more recent origin.  "What you are
    reporting is the age of the mixture, not the age of the linen," says
    Garza-Valdes. 

    To resolve the shroud's true age, the researchers hope to obtain another 
    sample and process it with an enzyme that breaks down cellulose - and no
    other suspected contaminant - into glucose.  They could then date the
    glucose by cabron-14 analysis.  "If we can isolate the glucose, that
    will be the answer," says Mattingly. 

    
    
    Ah the dating game...scientists love to play it.  ;')
    

    too bad it was taken off the air.