Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Dave,
    
    Since no one else has given you an answer, I thought I'd at least tell
    you what I can, and perhaps it will spur someone else to provide more.
    
>    I am looking for info on the Lost Tribe or Tribes of Israel. Is this
>    real or is my memory playing tricks on me.
    
    The phrase "Lost Tribe of Israel" rings a bell in my mind, but I can't
    place the source.  I somehow connect it with a movement of questionable
    (from a Christian perspective) nature (perhaps a cult of some sort, or
    some other religion), but I can't be certain.
    
    I'm sorry I can't give you anything more definative?  Anybody else?
    
    Mark L.

    Dave,
    
    This expression is actually incorrect. Scripture clearly tells us that
    the 9.5 tribes living in Israel (Judah, Benjamin & 1/2 of Levi being
    the ones i Judah) were dispersed into the lands to the North and East
    of Israel. Many also were already existing (never having returned from
    the previous time of Exile) in Babylon where there was a large Jewish
    community. The expression Lost Tribes has been used by various cult and
    Christian sects to validate their connectedness with Judaism or the
    further their definition of Replacement Theology. 
    
    nancy
    

There was a group of angry young black men in Central Square in Cambridge
two weeks ago with signboards up and making speeches proclaiming that all
twelve tribes were lost, and that various groups of blacks were those
tribes: Judah was the American blacks, another tribe was the Caribbean
blacks, etc.

/john

Curiouser and curiouser....

    I heard the them a long, long, time ago, I guess when I was a kid. I
    could not recall where or when or If it was based on anything from the
    Bible. Thanks for the info.
    	Dave

    
    You can find the story of the 12 (or 13 if you count Mannasseh) tribes
    of Israel in 1 Kings 11:30. Before this time all of the tribes were
    under one king, but God tore 10 tribes out of Solomon's hand,
    
    "See I am going to tear the kingdom out of Solomon's hand and give you
     ten tribes."
    
    The tribe of Benjamin and part of the Levites today are associated with
    the tribe of Judah (Jews for short) and have not lost their Identity.
    These tribes were aligned with Jeroboam and the other 10 tribes were
    aligned with Rehoboam.
    
    In 2 Kings 17:5 shows that the 10 tribes were taken captive by assyria
    who deported them from their own land and replaced them with people
    from Babylon.
    
    Their Identity has been lost, thus the term "Lost 10 tribes of Israel."
    They still exist however. Nations are only families that have grown
    large.
    
    There is circumstantial evidence that Ephraim is England and
    Manasseh is the United States. Gen 48:17 shows that Ephraim was to
    become a group of nations and that Manasseh was to become a single
    great nation. The blessing they were to have was double, since Jacob,
    the second born had stolen the birthright. Britain, with it's
    commonwealth of nations fits Ephraim and the U.S. as a single great
    nation fits Manasseh. They have been the most prosperous nations.
    
    In history they are the only two nations that can fit the
    descriptions of Joseph.
    
    Like I said before, the evidence is circumstantial and there is no way
    to prove this with hard facts. But if you observe the behavior of
    Britain and the U.S., they do act like brothers. There is even a society
    in Britain called the British Israelite society. This whole concept has
    become known as "British Israelism."
    
    'Carl
                         

Hi Carl,

Thanks for the 'British Israel' perspective you have given us. It's a long
time since I've seen Don Black, who used to note in previous versions, from
the same position. 

'Most' Christians see the ten tribes which split off under Jeroboam as 
being deported into Babylonia, where their replacements came from, and 
where they were later joined by Judah.
    
The nation of Israel is referred to as being re-united as one indivisible 
people on restoration.

� Britain, with it's commonwealth of nations fits Ephraim ....
btw, if you looked recently, it really hasn't any more....

								Andrew

	I have heard of groups who believe in British Israelism and
	they end up tying this belief into the fact that they (the 
	british, the americans, WASP's, white supremacists, 	
	whomever) are the "new" Chosen People of God, that Israel 
	(and the Jews)have been passed over (no pun intended), and 
	that God favors these new chosen ones now in the way that 
	He promised to do forever for the Israelites.

	Besides, if British Israelism is a fact, I find it quite
	fascinating the way the "old" tribes of Israel (Zionists
	and Holocaust survivors) kicked the "new" tribes of Israel
	(Britain) out of the Promised Land in 1948.  Who was God
	favoring at this time?

	Or is someone going to tell me now that America and England
	are the new Promised Lands? 	:^)


	Bob West

The following note entry was "lost" due to a difficulty with a conference
maintenance procedure.  It has been reposted to avoid loss of entries.

Mark Lovik -- co-mod


================================================================================
Note 229.9                    Lost Tribe of Israel.                       9 of 9
EEMELI::ROUHU "Marana tha!"                          88 lines   6-SEP-1993 16:34
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
           -< The tribes are alive and about to start their exodus >-

Remember what God promised to Jacob and his seed: (Gen 28:15)

        "Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go,
        and will bring you back to this land; for I will not
        leave you until I have done that of which I have spoken
        to you."

Also Isaiah wrote about this: (Jer 30:3-4) Remember, here Israel = the 10
tribes, Judah = Judah + Benjamin.

        "For behold, days are coming, says the LORD, when I will
        restore the fortunes of my people, Israel and Judah, says
        the LORD, and I will bring them back to the land which I
        gave to their fathers, and they shall take possession of
        it. These are the words which the LORD spoke concerning
        Israel and Judah"

So God promised to take care of both Judah AND Israel and also to bring THEM
BOTH back to the promised land. Further, reading Ezekiel 37:21-23 explains
that the separation of Judah and Israel will end in the last days and when
Israel will be brought back to the promised land - Judah will already be
there! (No mentioning of Judah in verse 21)

So where are the ten tribes now?

2 Kings 18:9 tells us that they were brought to Assyria and Medes. Josephus
Flavius tells in his writings further that the ten tribes became an enormous
nation spreading to all directions (See Gen 28:14!).

Also in our days research is being made to locate all the pieces of the ten
tribes. E.g. the second president of Israel - Jizhak Benzwi - had a dream to
locate them. Today there is an institute carrying his name (Benzwi Institute)
in Jerusalem which is performing this work.

I heared about a recent report the institute has published and one of the
interesting findings they have done is the Bashtu (sp?) tribe living in
Afghanistan and West Pakistan. Some of the characteristics of this tribe
(which officially are moslems) are:

        1. They do the circumcision in the age of 8 days, not 13 years as the
        moslems do.

        2. Their wedding seremony is hold under an israelian 'hupa' roof.

        3. They have several jewish sexual laws.

        4. They have kosher food

        5. They have sabbath

        6. They pray towards Jerusalem, not towards Mecca

        7. They have books of the generations showing that they have been
        moved to Assyria from Samaria (!)

        8. They call themselves "the sons of Israel"

        9. etc...


Also other groups calling themselves "The sons of Israel" have been located
all around the world (India, Burma, Thailand, Zimbabwe, China...). One
interesting book to read - if you succeed to obtain it somewhere is "The
Jews in Ancient China: A Historical Survey" by a chinese historian Pan Guam
Tan (sp?), published 1983. Not seen it myself but i know a pastor in Finland
who is having it.

The paper "Jewish Week" (published in New York) writes in an article
"Finding the ten lost tribes of Israel" (May 11, 1990) that as the tribe of
Judah counts for some 13 to 14 milllion people worldwide today, some 22
million people belonging to the northern tribes have already been located
around the world. (And what is interesting to know - their exodus back to
the promised land has already started!)

The "Jewish Cronicle" (published in London) should also have an article
about the 10 lost tribes on March 6, 1987.

If some of you can get access to the articles in Jewish Week and Jewish
Cronicle e.g. from a local library i would appreciate if you could pass a
hard copy for me, too. I'm preparing a small presentation about the subject
in my church and it would be nice to have some "authentic" material to
show.

So anyone living in London or N.Y. and being tuned into this channel and
willing to visit the library microfiche room...? ;-)

		+- ilpo.

Hello Ilpo,

I have come across claims that various countries are 'ten lost tribes', 
which I have not felt were valid, because 
	� They generally identified people groups with identifiable genealogies 
	  not coming from Israel
	� They appeared to have a vested interst in the proponent's 
	  identifying with the group
	� There was absolutely no cultural memory of any link with Israel 
	  or Judaism

However, the cases you bring are different from these.  I haven't come 
across them before.

I certainly agree with your Biblical understanding of a massive return of
Jews from all over the world to be one nation towards the end of this age.
There's a number of places where this is indicated.  One chapter which
focuses on it is Jeremiah 30, which stresses that the return will be in
distress, a prophecy which has not yet been fulfilled, and which those who
subscribe to replacement theology (taking Israel to be the church) do not
seem to claim.... 

btw, the omission of 'Judah' in Ezekiel 37:21-23, where only 'Israel' is 
referred to reverts to the terminology of the combined nation in the days 
of David and before.  In verse 22,  the whole land is referred to as Israel.
I do not think that this indicates the return of people from the northern 
kingdom alone (as distinct from those of the tribe of Judah)
 
A lot of the faithful from the northern kingdom actually up and moved down
to Judah at various points in Israel's apostacy. (eg 2 Chronicles 11:16,
15:9, 29:6-11).

With the other tribal references in Ezra / Nehemiah (where 'Israel' is
referred to quite frequently, in the NIV), and also in the New Testament, I
understood Judah and Israel to be effectively merged, as they were
deportated to the same area.

Thanks for entering this; I'll be interested to hear more, though I would 
regard very carefully any claim that a culture came from Israel.

							God bless
								Andrew

>btw, the omission of 'Judah' in Ezekiel 37:21-23, where only 'Israel' is 
>referred to reverts to the terminology of the combined nation in the days 
>of David and before.  In verse 22,  the whole land is referred to as Israel.
>I do not think that this indicates the return of people from the northern 
>kingdom alone (as distinct from those of the tribe of Judah)

Your explanation may well be correct. The other way to interpret this would be
to note that in verses 15-19 when Israel is mentioned it always refers to the
northern tribes (Judah excluded). This would imply that also in verse 21 where
Israel refers to people it means the northern tribes. In verse 22 Israel refers
not to people but to the land which is of course always "Israel".

>With the other tribal references in Ezra / Nehemiah (where 'Israel' is
>referred to quite frequently, in the NIV), and also in the New Testament, I
>understood Judah and Israel to be effectively merged, as they were
>deportated to the same area.

There are some verses which lead me to think that perhaps Judah and Israel
are not yet effectively merged; rather that this merge would take place 'in
the last days'. For example:

        "For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will
        bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah,
        saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the
        land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess
        it." [Jer 30:3]

        "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will
        take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of
        Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will
        put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make
        them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand...

        And I will make them one nation in the land upon the
        mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them
        all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall
        they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all" [Eze 37:19,22]

        "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall
        assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the
        dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
        The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the
        adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not
        envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim." [Isa 11:12-13]

        "...So Israel was exiled from their own land to Assyria
        until this day -- -- And in that day a great trumpet will be
        blown, and those who were lost in the land of Assyria and
        those who were driven out to the land of Egypt will come
        and worship the LORD on the holy mountain at Jerusalem." 
        [2 Kin 17:23, Isa 27:13]

>Thanks for entering this; I'll be interested to hear more, though I would 
>regard very carefully any claim that a culture came from Israel.

I agree with you 100% that we have to be very careful when studying the claims
about the lost tribes. That's why I was interested in obtaining copies of the
original articles published in Jewish Week and Jewish Chronicle. However when
and if these claims prove to be true I think they are great signs showing what
time we are living.

So want to hear more? I still have a couple of examples but so far I have not
been able to verify their validness myself - so be careful...

I have heard that one Swedish paper published an article about a group of
the northern tribes returning back to Israel from India. And they even
pulled down their synagogue in India into pieces, brought it to Israel and
builded it up again because they didn't feel at home in the Israelian
synagogues (The stick of Joseph and stick of Judah are not even yet!)

The most hair rising story is the most difficult one to verify:

In southern Saudi Arabia there should be an area called "The empty quarter".
The story goes that a jewish investigator named Wolf entered the area in the
30's and found in the middle of all the beduins a group of people who had a
very special fixed idea:

They had a tower which they never could leave unoccupied. There always had 
to be a man up there praying for the God of Israel.

The story goes on: The Empty Quarter is an area where the entrance is
prohibited from foreigners. For a few years ago there was a message coming
from the Empty Quarter to Jesuralem (Maybe to Benzwi Institute, cannot
recall it any longer) telling that there is something special going on
within this group of people...

They have got a idea that their own land is somewhere and the time is coming
for them to leave the Empty Quarter and to go to their own land. They have
also heard that "a big eagle" has already come and taken their brothers from
the other side of the border against Jemen and taken them to their own land.

The group calls themselves Rechabians. Remember Jeremiah 35:18-19 ?

        	+- ilpo.

    Also see 575 and 579.
    
    There are genealogies that were uncovered from different nations that
    back each other up in making a genealogical tie between European
    royalty and Israelite royalty(house of David).
    
    .7  Andrew, Don Black is doing Ok.  He has had it a bit tough
    financially since leaving Digital but he's all right.
    
    Rich