Conference yukon::christian_v7

>    Well..?  For those men that participated at Promise Keepers this year -
>    How was it?  (I was impressed by what I heard broadcast on the radio
>    from there this weekend.)

	It was best described as AWESOME!  Over 50,000 men from around the 
	world (all 50 states and EVERY continent were represented).

	The fellowship was great.  I drove from Omaha with 5 other men 
	(3 of which were ex-Digits from this area).

	The speakers were excellent: Dobson, Hayford, Hendricks, Trent, 
	Smauley, etc...  all very good messages.  We were instructed, 
	encouraged and challenged.  The majority of the focus was on being 
	men of integrity in our Christian walk and to perform in our 
	responsibility areas as husbands and fathers.  I'm sure you were
	able to get the sense of the messages by listening to the radio, 
	but to be there, to be part of the fellowship, to pray with other 
	men, to feel the closeness and sense the true Christian brotherly 
	love that was there was really significant.  

	The most memorable part of the trip was the music.  Excellent music 
	provided by the Continental Orchestra and singers, Steve Green, etc.
	But over 50,000 men singing songs like Amazing Grace, Face to Face 
	(the theme song), etc. is almost to much to describe. It was great.  

	Imagine the warfare taking place with 50,000 men praying, seeking 
	God, worshipping the Lord on their knees, praying for their families, 
	their country and for each other.

	I could go on and on.  Overall, if you couldn't sense, it was an 
	excellent trip.  Well worth the time and investment.  Depending on 
	how they do it next year (we over-filled the stadium so it couldn't 
	be held there, alone, next year) I'll be back.  There are some 
	plans to take this around the world and have over one million men
	(by the year 2000) take part in it at once using satellite 
	transmission, etc.  It will be exciting to see it grow.

		--chas

    Incredible testimony Chas!
    
    I'd love to have been surrounded by 50,000 men singing Amazing Grace.
    
    Nancy

Face to Face
  - Carrie E. Breck 1898

Face to face with Christ my Savior,
Face to face - what will it be
When with rapture I behold Him,
Jesus Christ who died for me?

  Face to Face I shall behold Him, 
  Far beyond the starry sky,
  Face to face, in all His glory,
  I shall see Him by and by!

Only faintly now I see Him,
With the darling veil between;
But a blessed day is coming, 
When His glory shall be seen.

What rejoicing in His presence, 
When are banished grief and pain,
When the crooked ways are straightened
And the dark things shall be plain

Face to face - O blissful moment!
Face to face - to see and know;
Face to face with my redeemer,
Jesus Christ Who loves me so!

  Face to Face I shall behold Him, 
  Far beyond the starry sky,
  Face to face, in all His glory,
  I shall see Him by and by!

    Thanks Mark... I couldhear the harmony.....ahhhhhh :-)

Sorry to disappoint you, Mark. The theme song of the conference was a slightly
newer song of the same title. The conference also achieved a Guiness Book World
Record by feeding breakfast, lunch and a full barbeque dinner for 50,000.

Leonard

FACE TO FACE
Words and Music by
Buddy Owens and Bill Batstone

Face to face brother to brother
Face to face one friend to another
Growing together we're building the kingdom of God

Man to man shoulder to shoulder
Man to man serving each other
Working together we're building the Kingdom of God

Brother to brother we'll strengthen each other
And stand for the truth side by side
Brother to brother we'll honor each other
As men of the kingdom on high

Back to back, warrior to warrior
Back to back, defending each other
Standing together we're building the kingdom of God

Face to face shoulder to shoulder
Back to back younger and older
Growing together we're building the kingdom
Working together we're building the kingdom
Standing together we're building the kingdom of God

c 1993 Maranatha! Music
ARR ICS

    
    	Where was this event held?  Is it annual?
    	What did it cost?  Who sponsors it?
    
    	Sounds fabulous!  I'd would have loved to
    	pass on to men in my church - I wish I 
    	paid more attention.
    
    	Any further information would be great -
    	Who to write to...
    
    
    	Thanks
    
    	Cynthia

 There was some info in 13.59

 It was held in Boulder Colorado and sponsored in part by Focus on the Family
 Ministries.






Jim

Only mildly disappointed, Leonard.  The song I know is a bit older...by 95 years!
In any case, it was a good memory!

Face to face!

 Ever since you folks started talking about Face to Face I keep having
 "We shall Behold Him" running through my mind..



 Jim

    How long was the onference and would it be possible to get cassette
    copies of some of the sessions?

� I keep having "We shall Behold Him" running through my mind..

Me too....
						Andrew

RE:            <<< Note 222.11 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "Thou God seest me" >>>

.� I keep having "We shall Behold Him" running through my mind..

.Me too....



 Which then brings to mind years ago when I was in the hospital for back 
 surgery (ouch).  Our Pastor's wife (who has a lovely voice) brought me in
 a tape of her singing and on this tape was a beautiful version of this 
 song..I still have the tape.




Jim

RE:                    <<< Note 222.10 by SOLVIT::DESMARAIS >>>
                                  -< Tapes? >-

   . How long was the onference and would it be possible to get cassette
   . copies of some of the sessions?



   I believe the conference was a weekend thing.  You may want to contact
   Focus on the Family Ministries in Colorado Springs, CO.  Or, if you 
   have opportunity to catch Dr Dobson's radio program I would think that
   they would be offering tapes in the near future.


   Jim

			[Some info from the 1993 PK program]

What is it?

	Promise Keepers is a Christ-centered ministry dedicated to uniting
	men through vital relationships to become Godly men who influence
	their world.

Organization:

	note: Promise Keepers is not directly affiliated with Focus on the
	Family ministries, although Dobson certainly supports it via
	his programs and literature.  Dobson is NOT on teh Board of
	Directors.

	Promise Keepers is a serperate organization with a board, etc.
	The founder is Coach Bill McCartney of the Univ. of Colo. in 
	Boulder.  There is Board of Directors, an executive board and
	some staff.  He relies heavily on volunteers to pull off the
	actual yearly event.

History:
	March 1990: Bill McCartney and Dr. Dave Wardell met to discuss the 
	need to disciple men.

	June 1990: Bill McCartney presented their idead to 71 friends who 
	promised to fast and pray once a week for the men of Colorado.

	July 1991: 4,200 men assembled in the Events Center @ Univ. of Colo

	July 1992: 22,000 men converged on the Univ of Colo Folsom Field

	July 1993: over 50,000 men came together @ Folsom Field!

Conference:

	There is a leadership conference that meets during the week prior 
	to the conference.  I'm not sure of the numbers who attend, but
	would *guess* up to 1,000 or so.  

	The main coference is two days (July 30/31 this year) and was held
	at the Univ of Colo Folsom Field.  They literally filled the 
	entire stadium, including thousands on the field itself.

    Friday, July 30: Half day - two main sessions: 

	"Face to Face with the Father"		Greg Laurie
	 "How toMake the Enemy Run"		Rev. E.V. Hill

    Saturday, July 31: All day	   - general sessions in the morning,
				   - workshops in afternoon
				   - general sessions in evening

	"Transformed! Seeing eye-to-eye with God"	Pastor Jack Hayford
	"A Mandate for Mentoring"			Dr. Howard Hendricks

	Workshops: 15 different workshops, each about an hour, Three time
		slots with five sessions running concurrently

		Some of the speakers: Smalley, Trent, Canfield, Cole, Biehl

	Evening general sessions: Dobson was going to speak on "When God 
	Doesn't Make Sense" but felt the need to change it shen seeking the 
	Lord.  He spoke on women - primarily what our wives would want us 
	to learn!  

	"Face to Face, Back to Back, Shoulder to Shoulder"	Bill McCartney

Mail/Tapes:

	Mailing address for Promise Keepers, including for tapes, T-shirts, 
	hats, videos, etc. can be ordered from:

		Promise Keepers
		P.O. Box 18376
		Boulder. Colorado  80308

		Phone: 303-421-2800
		Fax:   303-421-2918

    
    chas almost said it all.  it sure is nice to hear some other
    digits talking about this event this year.
    
    in 1991, the 4200 met in an all day session.  at the conclusion,
    they prayed and committed to return the next year with 12 men
    each - targetted 50,000 which would fill the stadium.
    
    1992, there were 2 events - the leadership conference started
    tuesday evening and went through thursday, 10pm.  it was open
    to anyone, although targetted pastors and church layleaders.
    there were 1200 men present and a list of great speakers.
    (see archived notes Christian5).  
    on friday evening, 22,500 arrived for the stadium event.  also,
    after 3 days of hot weather, the rain arrived too.  have you
    ever seen 22,500 men singing praises to God, sitting in the
    rain with garbage bags, rain parkas and umbrellas over them
    and doing the umbrella wave around the stadium?
    
    1993 - same agenda.  the leadership conference held just over
    3000 men, and you've heard about the weekend already.
    
    write the address that chas gave you and ask for a copy of the last
    newsletter.  they produce a quarterly newsletter which lists all
    the presentations from each of the 3 years.  you can order audio
    tapes (individually or sets) for $5 aand video for $10-13.  get 
    as many of the bback issues you can; it will give you a flavor of
    what promisekeepers is all about.
    
    thanks, chas, brother,
    jim.
    

    
    forgot to mention.  the plan for next year is to have regional
    events.  when you write, ask for the name of the regional 
    pk coordinator in your area.
    
    there will be different kinds of events, depending on what gets
    accomplished locally.  some areas will have 1-2 day leadership
    trainings prior to the big event the last weekend of july.
    
    then, the last weekend of july, there will be another national
    conference in boulder and the intent is to have simultaneous
    events in stadiums in portland, anaheim, indianapolis, dallas,
    and orlando (or atlanta - i don't remember).  anyway, these 
    are all dependent upon the regional people pulling them off,
    so if you are in one of those areas, i know they would appreciate
    the help.  like chas said, it's all pretty much volunteer.
    
    if the simultaneous stadium events happen, they will be linked
    by satellite together so some speakers will be live and others
    remote.  they tested the giant tv screen this year at boulder
    and it worked great - right chas?
    
    anyway, boulder stadium and events center are booked through
    the year 2000, when the plan is to have 50,000+ men in stadiums
    in every city in the nation linked together on the last weekend
    of july, praising God and lifting up His Name.  somebody has
    to take notice by then.
    
    a side note, last year there were 4 foreigners at the national
    conference - south africa, austria, australia, new zealand.
    
    this year, there were men from every continent - every - even
    2 men from antartica, and over 70 men from canada.  it was
    amazing.
    
    guys, this is the best way to spend a week of your vacation,
    and my wife says your wives will agree.
    
    stand up, men.  it's time for us to start doing the praying.
    the women have held the fort long enough.
    
    jim.

Yep, I was there for the weekend. Un----Be-----lievable!

It rained just prior to the start on Friday evening and was very pleasant.
Saturday was !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Was praying for rain, but it never happened. Anything to cool it off
some. The clouds finally gave a little relief and for a city that usually
has a real wind problem, the air was dead most of the day.

Elaine and Laura came and we stayed in the motorhome about 1 1/5 miles away
from the stadium. They shopped and touristo'ed while I was at the meet.

They said that they could hear us singing and cheers at times and around 
9:50 when we sang "Face to Face" the last time, they could hear it.

Amazing weekend.

John I.

    Does anyone have the 800# for Promise Keepers?
    
    I keep hearing it on the radio but I'm always in the
    car at the time..
    
    Thanks!
    
    Pam

    there's a (303) number in .14, dont' know if still good...
    

 You might try calling 1-800-555-1212 and see if they can give it to 
 you...




 Jim

    So Bob, Did you have a great time or what?!
    
    J. got home yesterday afternoon and is totally filled with the
    spirit.  He seems a different man and is full of joy!  
    
    Hope you had as wonderful an experience as he did!
    
    
    pam

    [This is worth repeating here]
    
    What a glorious weekend in Boulder Colorado, at Promise Keeper's. I
    have never seen or been to anything like that before in my life. WOW!!
    
    It was a great weekend of praise, prayer, singing and fellowship. 52000
    men in one place at the same time WOW! Impressive speakers, impressive
    messages, incredible fellowship opportunities. WOW!
    
    I learned a great deal this weekend. I learned that I have a lot to
    learn. I also learned that I am READY to learn and do what it takes to
    become a good husband to my Peggy and a good father to Christine, Bob
    Jr. and Billy. I've got a lot to learn and a long row to hoe, but I
    will succeed with the Lord at the controls.
    
    It was incredible..... when 52000 men sing acapella at the top of their
    voice, it is said you can hear them at least 3 miles away. At the
    church where we camped, the Lady that stood watch over our things while
    we attended the conference said she could hear us clearly. The church
    was approximately one mile from the stadium. Praise the Lord!!! WOW!
    
    In 1995 they plan on having PK meet in 12-14 places with an attendance
    of approximately 800 thousand. In 1996 they are planning on having only
    one PK meeting.... in Washington DC, in front of the Capital with a
    planned attendance of 1 million men! WOW!!! I will plan on attending in
    1996... with the Lord's help!
    
    If there are men out there that have not been to a PK conference yet,
    do yourself a favor, ATTEND next year. Start saving you pennies now.
    You will not regret it! If you don't think you can attend in 1995, at
    least try planning on attending in 1996. No date has been set yet, but
    it will happen. 
    
    If 52000 men can rock a city the size of Boulder, what will
    1,000,000,000 men do to a city the size of Washington DC. WOW, WOW!!!
    
    I'm ready to except my responsibilities in Christ as a husband and
    father!!!
    
    Bob
    

    Saturday I went to a men's 'pep rally' for the upcoming Billy Graham 
    Crusade.  Steve Lawson was the featured speaker and Lee Haney gave his
    testimony.  It was announced that they had concluded the preliminary 
    negotiations to host Promise Keepers in the Georgia Dome in the late 
    spring/early summer of 1995.

>>>Steve Lawson was the featured speaker and Lee Haney gave his
>>>    testimony.  

	And did Lee flex his muscles for you ??

	;-)

    I got there late so my son and I had to sit way up in the balcony but
    even from that distance he is BIG.  It was fun (can we have fun in
    church) to watch Lee Haney but Steve Lawson delivered a challenge that
    stirred me deeply.
    
    Kent
    

    Hi,
    
    Can anyone tell me if the Denver date is sold out yet? I think it
    is June 16 & 17.
    
    Thanks,
    
    -John

	Re: .-1:

	I'm not sure, but there was a Promise Keepers' table staffed
between services at our church last week, complete with a video tape
playing of one of last year's sessions.  Might be worth giving them
a call, though :-).

    It was announced last week that all 70,000 seats for the Georgia Dome
    PromiseKeepers meetings on June 30th and July 1st have been sold.

The Minneapolis, Detroit, Indianapolis, Atlanta and Washington, D.C. conferences
are sold out. I hope the Denver conference does not sell out before they process
my mail-in registration. I could not use the automated 800 registration because
I threw out the envelope which was the only place where my constituent number
was printed. I just received a postcard with my number on it and the following
phone numbers, but now I don't want to make a duplicate registration either.

Automated Registration	1-800-239-7028

Product Orders		1-800-456-7594

Conferences & Leadership
Seminar Brochures	1-800-888-7595

Customer Service	1-800-888-7595


Leonard

    are they coming to Phoenix this year?

Sorry, no Phoenix. The conferences that are still not sold out are:

Los Angeles	May 5,6

Houston		June 2,3

Denver		June 16,17

Seattle		July 7,8

St. Petersburg	August 4,5

Oakland		September 29,30

Dallas		October 27, 28


Leonard

    Hey All,

    Plan _now_ to attend the PromiseKeepers '96 conference in Washington,
    District of Columbia; start saving those pennies, etc.

    PromiseKeepers is projecting upwards of 1 MILLION men in DC!  Imagine!

    Don't look now, but revival is hitting the men! ;-)

    
    YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    re: .27   "call em up"
    
    I did but sat on hold for 15 minutes...then gave up...wouldn't have
    minded so much but they had a message just about every 38 seconds
    saying all reps were busy but hangon the line...guess they didn't want
    ya falling asleep listening to the music...
    
    re: 29   "I hope not"
    
    Hey Leonard! think Garth will let two from the group go on that Friday?
    it's not a busy time is it (ie, V2.5???)
    
    Guess I'll try calling again next week...
    
    Thanks all for the info...
    
    -John

John,

Two will be just fine. I wish everyone would go. You want to go together? A
friend of mine and I are trying to find a place to park his tent trailer near
the stadium, sleeps five.

Leonard

    re: <<< Note 222.36 by SSDEVO::LAKE >>>
    
    sounds great Leonard. talk to ya more in a few weeks...
    
    -John

    Praise God!! I just last night got a ticket for tomorrow night's and
    all day Saturday's PromiseKeepers meeting here in Atlanta!!  I'll be
    joining Bing "Cherry Coke" Hunt and 70,000 other men at the Georgia 
    Dome as we "raise the standard" ...

    In Christ's love,

	Ron

	Have a wonderful time, Ron!

	Karen

    
    Thanks wonderful Ron!   May God bless and encourage you!
    
    Jill

    So is it true that the largest denominatin in PK is the LDS church?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    
    Didn't you already ask this Mikey?  Sorry, no more info this week than
    last week.  My friend was not aware of an large LDS presence.  But
    regardless of who was there, they heard the gospel and praise God
    for that!
    
    Jill
    

    I don't hear of any massive revival or salvations among LDS members and
    wonder what attracts them to this ecumenical movement to begin with.
    
    Mike

Hey, Ron

if there's only 70,000 others, besides you and Bing, you should spot him
instantly!  Especially with that other clue - Mike Heiser will be the one
not there.  

Oh - sadly, so will I.

								Andrew

    So Mike,
    
    Where did you hear this RUMOR anyway?  I know of NO ONE involved with
    LDS who is involved with Promise Keepers (I'm talking about
    leadership).  ANY ADULT MALE is welcome/encouraged to register and attend a 
    PK conference. The first message of the conference is an evagelistic 
    message (I know the person -Al Whitinghill (sp?)- who is giving this 
    message in Atlanta.  He is a VERY SOLID CHRISTIAN).  The purpose of PK,
    as I understand it (I can bring in a more definitive purpose statement
    on Wednesday), is to encourage men to be the followers of Christ/husbands/
    fathers that God would have them to be and to break down racial boundaries 
    within the body of Christ.
    
    Does that answer the question?
    
    Do you know of any evidence to support this rumor?  If not, why taint a
    ministry with a excellent reputation?  Everything should be measured
    against God's word, but I don't believe in questioning the validity of
    a ministry based on hearsay.
    
    In Christ,
    
    Bing
    
    Bing

    re: LDS and PK
    
    I heard something about this on one of the local Christian radio
    stations last week.  Seems someone high up in the LDS Church read the
    seven promises and said "these are right in line with our beliefs and
    practices - let's look into this" (or words to that effect).  
    
    Someone from PK (sorry, don't remember who) said that all are welcome,
    but that he thought that the LDS folks would be uncomfortable with our
    views of the divinity of Jesus.  He made it very clear that ALL of the
    people in PK administration are Evangelical Christians, and that ALL
    the PromiseKeepers events are Evangelical in nature.  
    
    The general sense was that our good friends in the press had blown this
    all out of proportion and seemed to be trying to generate an issue that
    would sell more papers (or TV ads, or whatever...)   Actually, to me
    their motive seems to be more in line with discrediting anything that
    does not meet their Standards For Political Correctness guidelines,
    rather than good old-fashioned greed.  
    
    Bottom line - not to worry about PromiseKeepers current direction
    (although here, as elsewhere, eternal vigilance is the price...)
    
    Regards/John

   re: <<< Note 222.30 by OUTSRC::HEISER >>>

    are they coming to Phoenix this year?

  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Hey Mikey,

  Isn't Dallas about the closest location to Phoenix on this year's schedule?
  Why don't you go to the Dallas convention on October 27th and 28th and 
  determine for yourself what PK is about ... 8^)

  In Christ's love,

	Ron

    I would attend one if they were local.  They are supposed to have one
    next year.  The weekend of our men's Spring retreat they were in L.A.
    which is an 8-hour drive from here.  Forget Dallas, that would take a
    full 24 hours on the road.
    
    I can assure you that this is not a rumor and is not a reflection on
    leadership.  It is a reflection on attendees.  Even Greg Laurie, pastor
    of the 2nd largest Calvary Chapel in the U.S., gave the evangelistic
    message in Denver and I think L.A. too.
    
    Mike

    For some documentation of the LDS influence among attendees, see volume
    16, no. 1, and the recent special report of the "Media Spotlight." 
    This is a newsletter put together by Albert James Dager which presents
    a Biblical analysis of religious & secular media.  You can get your
    copy from:
    
    Media Spotlight
    PO Box 290
    Redmond, WA 98073
    
    Mike

		Jesus Christ = 68,696		Satan = 0

    What a WONDERFUL experience!
    
    Friday night approx. 1000 men came forward to receive Christ.  
    
    Jack Hayford got things started Saturday morning.  He used the scripture of
    Moses taking off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. 
    Jack said it was symbolic of "stepping out" of dependance on self and
    stepping into dependance on God.  Then we all slipped our shoes off,
    kneeled and worshipped our heavenly Father. 
    
    Ron Blue then spoke on Christian finances and how God owns it all.
    
    Wellington Boone spoke on men trying to out serve their wives. 
    
    Crawford Loritts gave an excellent talk on Christian fathering.  He
    talked about how his own father had passed down "the character of God
    and content of scripture" to him, even though he had never attended a
    Christian conference in his life.  He shared how his great grandfather
    was a slave, yet he passed down to his son that he had a heavenly
    Father who would meet all of his needs.  Near the end of his talk
    Crawford shared how his own dad was dying in the hospital and only had a 
    couple of days left to live.  He further shared that it was great for a
    father to spend time with his children (being involved in every aspect
    of their lives) but it was not enough, unless we were teaching them
    that God's Word was the objective standard that we should measure
    ourselves by and that they can have assurance that their heavenly
    Father will provide for them, even if something happened to us (mom &
    dad).
    
    Tony Evans inspired us to bridge the gaps that exist between black and
    white Christians in the U.S.  He encouraged the predominately white
    crowd to build a relationship with a black brother (building trust) and
    bring him back with us next year, so maybe some of us white guys won't
    be able to get a ticket next year 8^).  [the conference sold out
    several months ago].
    
    Coach McCartney wrapped things up Saturday night.  We had about a 30
    minute honoring of all the pastors there.  They all went down front as
    the rest of us showed our appreciation and love for them by cheering. 
    I have never heard it as loud in the Georgia Dome before.
    
    It was a GREAT, Christ centered experience.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Clarification around some of the "problems" in PK seem to center around
    the "encounter" follow-up groups, the book entitled "Masculine
    Journey," and the tendency toward ecumenism.
    
    If some of you would like a copy of the latest Media Spotlight, let me
    know.
    
    Mike

	Mike,

	Just my two cents.  I think an organization like Promise Keepers
simply has to decide on (and make clear) how vital (or optional) some key
doctrinal issues are to them.  They are also free to set different
standards for their leadership than for their general membership and/or
participants.

	Do you think PK should actively *discourage* Mormons, Jehovah's
Witnesses, etc. from participation in the rallies?  Or, are you simply
concerned that the doctrinal message from the leadership might be diluted
or tainted by doctrines or materials from these other groups?

    Well this is just part of the problem that has led to this: PK has *NO*
    doctrinal stances.  That's why there are several non-Christian groups
    find no problems in attending.
    
    Mike

...otherwise, they might just fall for anything!

    re .54 
    
    PK is not about doctrine, its about encouraging men to LIVE CHRIST
    centered lives.  In fact, they DO have a doctrine of sorts in the seven
    promises of a Promise Keeper.  I'll try to remember to bring my
    conference booklet in tomorrow, so I can put them in.  Its about taking
    some of the knowledge we have from our heads and letting it impact our
    hearts - That we might live what we say we believe.  
    
    They teach and preach Jesus Christ as the ONLY way to God.  They ARE
    sound doctrinally.  It was stated several times that God's Word is the
    objective standard.  The theme of the conference was "Raise the
    Standard".  
    
    One of the promises IS to bridge the gap between racial and
    denominational barriers, but NOWHERE is the Word of God compromised. 
    The denominations they refer to are CHRISTIAN denominations (Methodist,
    Pres., Baptist, Pentecostal, etc.).  The bible tells us that we will be
    known by our love for one another (not by our doctrinal perfection).  IF 
    people within the LDS want to hear the Word of God preached, then they 
    should not only be allowed to, but encouraged to (we wouldn't turn folks 
    from another faith away from our church doors, would we?).  
    
    Why criticize a movement of God, that you have no personal experience
    with?
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing
    
    

Everything I've ever heard about Promise Keepers, including first hand
reports from men who've attended has been very positive.  If this group
impacts more men in America to take their responsibilities to their wives
and children and communities more seriously, let's not undermine them with 
rumors or gossip.  If they are encouraging people in the wrong direction, 
away from God, away from their families, and away from wholesome work, then 
take them to charge on that, but not on heresay about not being exclusive.

Leslie

    This isn't hearsay.  I have documented evidence from other attendees. 
    I guess I'll just have to type this stuff in and show you, or mail
    copies to you.
    
    Bing, what do you know about the "Masculine Journey" and finding your
    phallic center that is taught at the encounter groups?  Did you know
    Bill McCartney is affiliated with Vineyard which is the main advocate
    and proponent of the laughing revival?  
    
    Mike

    
    RE:  McCartney and Vineyard
    
    I don't know if Coach Bill does attend a Vineyard church.  But please
    realize that not all Vineyards are advocates of the 'laughing and/or
    roaring' in the Spirit activity.
    
    If he is indeed a member of such a Vineyard church, does that diminish 
    his ministry through Promise Keepers?   And if so, how does it 
    diminish his ministry?
    
    I was able to participate in a worship and praise service this past
    Sunday evening.  It was a service that was proposed by a group of 
    pastors from Colorado Springs who see the needs to bring Christians
    together on the basis that JESUS IS LORD! rather than concentrating
    on all our doctrinal differences.  We had at least 12 different 
    churches of different backgrounds (Messianic Jews, Methodists,
    Vineyard, Baptists, Pentecostals, Presbyterians, ...).  
    
    What a joy to praise the LORD together in one voice, as one body.
    (It just happened that a few parts of the body were a little more 
    'active' than others ;-} ).
    
    It demonstrated to me that the LORD is big enough for all to worship 
    HIM and put aside our differences and not constantly criticize
    doctrine.   As was quoted -- "The Lord is returning for his Bride, 
    not a harem..."
    
    Mary Jo    (Colorado Springs)
    
    
    

    	I don't understand why this movement needs to be exclusionary.
    	I think it is better to be a little more fuzzy in the doctrine
    	area, and allow participants to translate the messages into 
    	each ones' own faith expression.  The purpose of the PK movement
    	is to attract men back into a sense of responsibility and
    	morality and human compassion.  These principles are practically
    	universal among common religions.
    
    	I have not attended PK yet.  Yet.  I intend to do so some day.
    	I know many people from various Christian denominations who have
    	gone, and I have yet to hear of follow-up groups encouraging
    	phallic centering or whatever that was.  And I'm SURE that most
    	of the attendees I know would never go for such stuff!

	Sorry, I didn't mean to ask divisive questions.  I'd
just like to find out more about PK and what they're all about.

    re .59
    
    Amen!
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing

  RE: .61 and others wanting to find out more about PK, here is (without
  permission) the opening letter in the Promise Keepers conference 
  brochure. I will enter the definition of "What Is a Promise Keeper" and 
  the text of the "Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper", and the Promise
  Keeper commitment to help men become godly men text in succeeding replies.

  I hope this information will help dispel some of the concerns raised in
  previous replies.

  In Christ's love,

	Ron



  Raise The Standard 1995

  Dear Men,

  On behalf of the board and staff, welcome to Promise Keepers '95!

  As we come together this conference season to answer Christ's call to
  {Raise the Standard} (in italics), it seems a good time to revisit an 
  important aspect of our spiritual heritage. Throughout history we see a
  definite Biblical precedent for the Promise Keepers Men's Conderences. In
  both the Old and New Testament God regularly brought together people of
  different tribes, languages, and distinctive backgrounds for the purpose
  of blessing them.  Travelers periodically arrived in Jerusalem from distant
  lands to set aside their cultural differences, their different styles of
  worship, to express their love collectively to a common, Almighty God.
  Clearly, special gatherings and celebrations were designed by God to unite
  His people in devotion to Himself. By participating, His people recognized
  their need for one another. It was part of God's strategic plan to impart a
  broader vision of interdependence, unity, and purpose in the Lord.

  It was during such a celebration - Pentecost - that the church of our Lord
  Jesus Christ was birthed. God poured out His Spirit as the disciples "were
  all together in one place," and "Jews dwelled in Jerusalem from every nation
  under Heaven." (Acts 2:1&5) God chooses to move among His people when they
  are gathered in His Name. It says in Psalm 133, :How good and pleasant it
  is when brothers live together in unity...for there the Lord bestows His
  blessing, even life forevermore."  In pursuing God's call to Raise the 
  Standard in 1995, let us remember out Biblical heritage, and meditate on 
  how God pours out His Spirit and blessings as the brethren find unity in 
  time, place, and spirit.

  As Christian brothers dwelling this day in united worship to our common 
  God, let us anticipate - and expect - His powerful presence. But it isn't
  enough. If we are to see God's standard raised for our generation, it will
  require us to surrender ourselves totally to Jesus Christ, to offer 
  ourselves as living sacrifices at His feet, and to cleve faithfully to His
  word. God has ordained that as we surrender completely to His Son we become
  one with Him - and with one another. We can only raise the standard as we're
  willing to bow to His majesty.

  As we leave the conference, let us pursue Christ with all our hearts. Let 
  us also be diligent to adhere to the Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper:
  to put God first, maintain accountable relationships in small men's groups,
  and to be committed promise keepers to our families, churches, brothers in
  Christ - and to the world. The world is waiting to see how real men - godly
  men - will help raise the spiritual standard in our desparate times. We
  pray that God will bless you at Promise Keepers '95 so that you will become
  a flag bearer for God's higher standard.

  Your brother in Christ,

  Randy T. Phillips
  President

			What Is Promise Keepers?

  Promise Keepers is a Christ-centered ministry dedicated to uniting men
  through vital relationships to become godly influences in their world.

  Promise Keepers
  ---------------
  We base our commitment to become promise keepers in the covenant-keeping
  nature of God.

	"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he
	should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he
 	promise and then not fulfill?" (Numbers 23:19) "The Lord is faithful
	to all his promises and loving toward all he has made." (Psalms 
	145:13)

   God is our model. Consequently, a promise keeper chooses to reflect the
   trustworthy nature of His Lord. This character is summed up in the word
   integrity.

   Integrity by definition is "a strict adherence to a moral set of values":
   (1) utter sincerity, (2) honesty, (3) candor, (4) not artificial, (5) not
   shallow, and (6) no empty promises. Actually, one could say that a man of
   integrity is a "promise keeper".

   Wives, children, churches, and communities all seem to agree that what we
   desparately need today are men who are promise keepers: men who won't 
   compromise the truth, men who are true to their word, men who are 
   trustworthy. This is why we have chosen Promise Keepers as the name for
   this ministry.

   Christ-centered Ministry
   ------------------------
   We adhere to the foundational truths of historic Christianity which are
   centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ. Above all, we are devoted
   to honor Him in our gatherings, bringing prominence to His name. "For no
   matter how many promises God has made, they are 'Yes' in Christ"  
   (2 Corinthians 1:20) Additionally, we are committed to the absolute,
   inchanging directives in God's written Word.

   As a ministry, we intend to serve the leadership of local churches and
   their men by offering six ministries and resources that are designed to
   help men become promise keepers:

   1. Conferences: These catalytic events (which include Leadership Conferences)
   unite men to honor Jesus Christ in the context of celebration, providing 
   motivation, teaching, and fellowship with men of diverse heritages.

   2. Educational Services: These equipping seminars train pastors and leaders
   to equip their men to become promise keepers.

   3. Field Ministry: Our field ministry team is available to directly assist
   the local church to develop its men's ministry.

   4. Productions: These resources include all forms of electronic media -
   audio and video.

   5. Publications: Includes all written resources.

   6. Resource Center: This is a clearing house for serving any man or church
   who requests information, product, or resources pertaining to the above 
   items.

   Dedicated to Uniting Men
   ------------------------
   We believe that we have a God-given mission to unite men who are separated
   by race, geography, culture, denomination, and economics.  We refer to
   something much greater than humanistic unification and more powerful than
   political equality. Rather, we are compelled to pursue Biblical 
   reconciliation: loving our brother as an expression of our love for God
   (1 John 4:19-21).

   We believe that reconciliation is clearly the hear of God.

	"All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ
	and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling
 	the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
	And he committed to us the message of reconciliation."
	(2 Corinthians 5:18-19)

   Therefore, we are compelled to proclaim the message of reconciliation:
   unbeliever to God, brother to brother, husband to wife, wife to husband,
   parent to child, child to parent, church to church, and people to people.
   Jesus undoubtedly envisioned a united church when He prayed:

	"I pray also for those who will live in me through their message,
	that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am
	in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that
	you have sent me...and loved them even as you have loved me."
	(John 17:20-23)

   We are dedicated, then, to addressing the division that has separated the
   body of Christ for too long. We are committed to call men to reconcile in
   Christ, to live as one.

   Biblical reconciliation requires that we come together in our common 
   spiritual poverty in order to receive God's riches, strength, and grace 
   - together. It means that we allow God to replace our personal prejudice
   with His perspective. It compels us to accept the essential value of every
   believer, understanding that we need each other to be complete.

   Through Vital Relationships
   ---------------------------
   Biblical unity spawns vital relationships: life-changing, interdependent,
   living, dynamic, face-to-face covenant relationships. Through vital 
   relationships we can embrace one another's pains and triumphs. BY this we
   can express our honor for each other as equals while respecting our
   diverse heritages. We believe that vital relationships among men are the
   foundation for helping one another become promise keepers. We contend that
   this is best accomplished when a small group of men agree to pursue God 
   - face to face, shoulder to shoulder, and back to back - and establish
   covenant relationships with each other to affirm, to be available for, and
   to pray for each other; to be honest with, to preserve confidentiality 
   with, and to be accountable to each other.

   In the contect of covenant relationships, a man willingly grants other men
   the right to inquire about his relationship to God, his commitment to his
   family, his sexuality, and his financial dealings. Together they form a
   team that is committed to advance God's kingdom.

   To Become Godly Influences In Their World
   -----------------------------------------
   Because God does not default on any of His promises, through His power we
   have the resources to make and keep Spirit-led, Biblically-based promises:

	"His divine power has given us everything we need for life and
	godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own
	glory and goodness. Through these he has given us his very great
	and precious promises, so that through them you may participate
	in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused
	by evil desires." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

   With this understanding, Promise Keepers is dedicated to calling men to 
   the ongoing process of godliness.

   Promise Keepers heeds Christ's directive to be "the salt" and "the light"
   of the world (matthew 5:13-14). We are committed to motivating men to "call
   on the name of the Lord and serve Him shoulder to shoulder" (Zephaniah 3:9),
   thus advancing His Kingdom.

   We believe tha men can significantly influence their world for Jesus 
   Christ by making and keeping promises that last a lifetime to:

   o Jesus Christ, who is the only source of forgiveness, hope, and strength;

   o Families, through exercising honor, care, and spiritual initiative;

   o Friends, through supportive and purposeful relationships;

   o Church, through active giving of time and resources;

   o Community, through commitment to the Great Commandment (love) and the
     Great Commission (evangelism and discipleship).

   By God's grace, the end result will be a world-wide movement of men who
   have been stirred by God to pray, repent of their sins, reconcile to God 
   and others, walk in newness of life, and advance the Good News of Jesus
   Christ. Revival!

	"Yes, LORD, walking in the way of your laws, we wait for you;
	your name and renown are the desire of our hearts."
	(Isaiah 26:8)

		    "Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper"

   "Be very careful, then, how you live - not as unwise but as wise, making
   the most of every opportunity, because the days are evil." (Ephesians 5:15)

   Promise Keepers believes that Christian growth starts by making some
   promises - promises we intend to keep. That's why we've identified seven
   promises and written the book :Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper".

   These promises are not designed as a new list of commandments to remind 
   us of how badly we're doing with respect to the often-competing demands
   of home, work, and the church. Rather, they are meant to guide us toward
   the life of Christ, so that He may transform us from the inside out. Only
   then can we be godly influences in our relationships and world.

   We understand that this kind of change is a process, and that we need the
   grace and strength of the Holy Spirit. Only then will we be in the process
   of becoming more like His Son, Jesus Christ - a Promise Keeper.


   1. A Promise Keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through worship,
      prayer, and obedience to His Word, in the power of the Holy Spirit.


   2. A Promise Keeper is committed to pursunig vital relationships with a 
      few other men, understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep
      his promises.

   3. A Promise Keeper is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical,
      and sexual purity.

   4. A Promise Keeper is committed to building strong marriages and families
      through love, protection, and biblical values.

   5. A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting the mission of the church
      by honoring and praying for his pastor and by actively giving his time
      and resources.

   6. A Promise Keeper is committed to reaching beyond any racial and 
      denominational barriers to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.

   7. A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing his world, being obedient
      to the Great Commandment (see Mark 12:30-31) and the Great Commission
      (see Matthew 28:19-20).

		"Our Commitment to  Help Men Become Godly Men"

   Consider what it takes to bring just one more man to Christ and to
   encourage and equip him to become a man of conviction, integrity, and
   action:

     We must maintain contact with him so that he has access to various
     opportunities and resources.

     We must serve the local churches by providing training for men's 
     ministry leadership.

     We must produce resources that enable and challenge men to become 
     godly men.

     We must interact with men throughout the year by equipping volunteers 
     and local staff.

     We must make conferences available throughout the nation and help keep 
     the tuition costs affordable.

   RE: .51 - Let me add to Bing's recap ...

   Indeed, "What a WONDERFUL experience!"
    
   Friday  evening began with praise singing - almost 69,000 men united
   in singing praises to our Father!  (Check your local Christian music
   outlet for "Raise The Standard" Promise Keepers Conference Edition of
   28 praise songs; 88 minutes singing time!)

   Al Whittinghill (Minister-at-large, Ambassadors for Christ International 
   of Marietta, GA) talked on the topic of "Jesus Christ Is The Standard".     
   Some of his points include:

     o let God be God in your life rather than trying to do the job alone;

     o man is not designed to live apart from God (see Gen 1:11; Gen 1:20,
       Gen 1:26; Gen 2:7; and Proverbs 7:27)

     o life is not "attaining something" it is "containing someone" - Jesus

     o be a promise seeker!


   After a half-hour break, we sang more praise songs, then Isaac Canales, a
   pastor and assistant professor from Pasedena, CA spoke to us on the topic
   of "Becoming a Man of God's Word". He is an impassioned speaker who fired
   up the conference by exhorting us to have a hunger for God's word! He 
   encouraged us to change our bad habits and _make_ time for the Word, to
   give God the time due the King of the Universe! (God provided an awesome
   sound and light show as a severe thunderstorm with heavy rains boomed
   around the Georgia Dome, providing emphasis to Dr. Canales' words!!)

   The evening closed (is it 10:00 already?!?!?) with approximately 1,000 
   men coming forward to receive Christ as their Saviour!!!! 


   Saturday morning began with more praise singing (just can't get enough!),
   then Pastor Jack Hayford of Church On The Way in Van Nuys, CA taught us 
   on the topic of "Becoming a Man of Worship and Prayer". He used Exodus 
   3:1 as his text, and described how God is looking our way, full of hope
   for each of us. He stated that the point in worship is for something to
   happen between God and us, that we are to learn a daily walk with God,
   and that we are to let our heart bring focus on God's word to melt down
   some of the knowledge that fills our head so it can fill our heart. We
   are to want what God wants for our life!  God has given you and me the
   daily call to worship so that in the environment of worship He may infuse
   you and me with His love and His Spirit!

   As Bing wrote, then Pastor Hayford had all of us step out of our shoes and
   kneel and pray, then we worshipped our Father!!


   After another half-hour break, we sang more praise songs, then Ron Blue
   of Ronald Blue & Co. of Atlanta spoke on "Raising the Standard In Our 
   Personal Life" regarding Christian finances.  Some of his points include:

     o God owns it all!

	- He can take whatever He wants whenever He wants to!
	- Every spending decision is a spiritual decision.
	- You can't fake stewardship (your checkbook reveals it!)!

     o The more you have (the more choices) the more difficult life becomes.
  
     o Economic uncertainty is certain, therefore, for financial security:

	- Spend less than you earn (the government refuses to learn this!)
	- Avoid the use of debt (credit card spending)
	- Maintain liquidity
	- Set long-term financial goals

     o A wife's intuitive advice is usually correct. (AMEN!)

     o If you don't understand "it" enough to explain "it" to your wife,
       then you don't understand "it" enough to do "it"!!

     o You don't "become" a steward, you "are" a steward, and we all must
       learn to hold whatever God gives us with an open hand.


   We then ended the morning sessions, and began a very interesting exercise
   in the logistics of successfully feeding 69K men lunch in 90 minutes. The
   PK folks have obviously done this before as it all worked very well!


   The first Saturday afternoon session featured Wellington Boone, President
   of New Generation Campus Ministries of Richmond, VA, who spoke to us on 
   the topic of "Raising The Standard for Our Marriages". Several of his
   points were:

      o Change the agenda; be a "worm" to your wife (Psalms 22:6)

      o Pray for all people the same

      o The Word of God must be absolutely #1 in your house!

      o 4 ways for you to personally raise the standard:

	- In the morning, lay hands on your wife and pray for her, and 
	  bless her, and encourage her (!)
	- Every day, let your wife know (verbally and by your actions)
	  that you love her
	- Give her your time (special time), give her money that she can do 
	  with as she wants without having to account to you, and every day
	  give her your listening ear
	- Out-serve your wife (be her servant!).

   Let your children know that if they "mess" with your woman, they will 
   have to deal with your wrath!


   After another half-hour break, we sang more praise songs, then Crawford
   Loritts, National Director of Legacy Ministries of Union City, GA spoke 
   on "Raising the Standard For Our Children". Bing's description is spot-on,
   but let me add that at the conclusion of this message, there was such an
   outpouring of love for this man and his family! The MC prayed beautifully
   for the Loritts family, then we all praised God for His faithfulness to
   His servant!


   This concluded the afternoon sessions, and again PK proved the efficiency
   of their planning by successfully feeding 69K men supper in 90 minutes. As
   the men trickled back into the Dome, playfulness became rampant as beach
   balls were bounced from tier to tier, paper airplanes sailed everywhere,
   and the "wave" went on for round after round after round, with four 
   going on at one time!

   We then sang more praise songs, then Pastor Tony Evans of Oak Cliff 
   Bible Fellowship of Dallas, TX spoke on "Raising the Standard In The 
   Brotherhood of Believers".  In addition to Bing's comments, let me add
   that Pastor Evans pointed out:

     o We may have all come here on different ships but we are all in the
       same boat now;

     o Being Christian is more important than skin color or creed (!)

     o Racism is sin.


   We then had a special visitor, Holly Phillips (wife of the PK President),
   who took a few minutes to thank us and to point out to us that our wives
   may act differently once we return home, e.g.:

     o Wondering who this strange guy is who walked in your door;

     o Cautioning us to help our wives deal with the change in us because
       many wives have an uneasy time with change because of the familiarity
       with their own comfort zone;

     o Asking us to be patient and humble while our wives deal with any 
       changes;

     o Asking God to help both husbands and wives not to give up or get 
       discouraged; and

     o Reassuring us that our wives will catch our fire, and that we should 
       forgive them and affirm them.


   After a half-hour break, we sang more praise songs, then Coach Bill 
   McCartney, Founder of Promise Keepers (and no longer affiliated with the
   University of Colorado, now full-time in Promise Keepers) spoke to us on 
   the topic "The Power of a Promise Kept". Coach reminded us:

     o The glory of God is in a man, fully alive, living life to its limits;

     o Forgive and you will be forgiven (whoever will not forgive will not 
       be forgiven);

     o Every man must bring his wife to splendor in Jesus Christ;

     o Give and it will be given unto you - give away love and trust and 
       loyalty and resource - learn to give greatly (2 Corinthians 9:7) -
       give to family and friends and church and work (Romans 5:5)

     o Success is when the people that know you the best love you the most;

     o Great living depends on great giving;

     o Forgive, give, and live!


   Coach then called all of the pastors present to come forward while the 
   crowd cheered and cheered and cheered for more than half an hour. Coach 
   then prayed over these men, encouraging them in their walk, then thanked 
   us all for coming to Promise Keepers and exhorting us to take what we have 
   heard and learned during this conference home with us an begin applying it 
   to our lives.

   It was indeed a super, Christ-centered and honoring experience!

   Some random observations:

     o No one complained because of standing in long lines ...

     o A local AM radio station broadcast the whole conference, and 
       reported taking a call from a woman who had driven in from Montgomery,
       AL Friday afternoon on I-85 and reported the awesome sight of a 
       caravan of over 50 buses beinging escorted by the Alabama State Police!

     o Talking and fellowshipping with folks from Alabama, Florida, Georgia 
       (of course!), North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky,
       Indiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Kansas, West Virginia, and other
       states with an instant kinship in Jesus Christ;

     o Singing praise songs on the MARTA (rapid transit system) platforms
       while waiting on the trains, then singing on the trains all the way
       to our destinations ...

     o If there is to be revival in America, it must begin with each of us.

    Only 1 man in here has been concerned enough about the truth to request
    the article(s) that show the problems with PK.
    
    Mike

        re: the letter

>  important aspect of our spiritual heritage. Throughout history we see a
>  definite Biblical precedent for the Promise Keepers Men's Conderences. In
>  both the Old and New Testament God regularly brought together people of
>  different tribes, languages, and distinctive backgrounds for the purpose
>  of blessing them.  Travelers periodically arrived in Jerusalem from distant

    One important difference is that they all believed in and worshiped
    the same God.  This is not the case with PK.

    Mike

    The promises are noteworthy, but they are still written in a way that
    they could apply to any church as well as cults.
    
    Mike

	Mike,

	I think we're all interested in the truth.  If you have any truth
to share, please post it here.  Assertions and rumors don't establish the
truth of the matter.

						Thanks,
						Bob Sampson

    For those interested in further investigation I suggest you might want
    to buy and read the book.
    
    Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper
    edited by Al Janssen
    ISBN 1-56179-222-5
    BV4400.S48  1994
    248.8'42--dc20
    Published by Focus on the Family Pubishing
    Colorado Springs, Co 80995
    Dsitributed by Word Books, Dallas, Texas

           <<< Note 222.70 by OUTSRC::HEISER "will pray for food" >>>

>    The promises are noteworthy, but they are still written in a way that
>    they could apply to any church as well as cults.
    
    	And is that so bad?  It seems to me that the purpose of the
    	Promise Keepers is to re-instill in men the sense of virtue,
    	morality, spitirual leadership.  These things are nearly
    	universal among religions.  They will help to apply the brakes
    	to the downward spiral of society, and it shouldn't matter
    	whether the principles can apply to any church or even any
    	cult.  
    
    	We may very well have a vehicle by which we can recapture a 
    	sense of right and wrong among members of society, and to
    	dismiss it because it doesn't follow a certain precise doctrine 
    	is terribly shortsighted to me.  Maybe it's crass of me to
    	suggest this, but suppose, Mike, that it is those who do not 
    	share your particular interpretations who are the ones who need 
    	PK the most!  (I have no basis for this suggestion.  It is only
    	posed for a matter of discussion.)  And what of the possibility
    	that those from "cults" might, through their exposure to 
    	Christianity at PK, convert to Christianity?
    
    	I think that a movement like PK that is trying to reach out 
    	to as many as they can, *SHOULD* be somewhat loose doctrinally, 
    	and that will allow the participants to filter and translate 
    	the messsage into their own religious practices.  Again, the 
    	purpose of the movement as I understand it is not to promote 
    	any particular religious denomination (though it is clearly 
    	Christian) but rather to awaken virtue among men.  Participants
    	who are thusly affected will bring that back to their families
    	and homes and friends and workplaces.  How can this be bad?

    .73
    
    If the Gospel message isn't the central theme of Promise Keepers than
    it's extrabiblical and therefore should be questionable amongst born
    again believers.  Teaching men to be men Biblically who don't know
    Christ as their Savior is like teaching trigonometry to a 6th grader. 
    They'll catch some principles, but it won't lead them to problem
    solving.  Without Christ you are only providing bandaids for a
    amputated leg.
    
        
    
    
    

I'd like to see whatever you have, Mike.

Paul

    Bob, Paul, others...  If you want a copy, mail me an address.  It's too
    long for me to type and I don't have the time to attempt it right now.
    
    Mike

    Mike,

    if you think it should be 'on-line' - mail a copy to me (sno1-3/c3) and
    I'll scan/ocr it and post it for you.

    The copy needs to be of 'good quality' (reduces errors :')

    Harry

Subj:	Promise Keepers outdraw Final Four - co.cos.general #27


It is reported in the Saturday, July 8th, 1995 edition of the Boulder
Daily Camera that "Kingdom Come came to the Kingdome -- and outdrew
the Final Four".

Robert Holguin of the Associated Press also writes:

At $55 a ticket, a crowd of 64,000 men jammed into the Kingdome, home
of the Seattle Seahawks and Mariners, surpassing the all-time attendance
record for that facility, including last year's Final Four college
baseketball tournament won by UCLA.

One man, Kevin Watters, drove 14 hours from Alberta, Canada, maneuvered
through tangled downtown traffic and hunted exhaustively for a parking
space to "be with his brotherhood" and hear former University of Colorado
football coach Bill McCartney speak.

Coack McCartney had some words for his critics regarding the supposed
suppression of women by his group, "Here's a message to the ladies,
'Ladies, there's hope. Don't give up because these men who never had
a clue, they're starting to get a clue,'" McCartney said.

"They're starting to figure it out. They're starting to become the kind
of men you always wanted when you married the guy."

McCartney said the lack of spirituality in contemporary society is to
blame for many of its woes and said the group's followers can change that.

    It is my understanding that, as an ex-Catholic, Bill McCartney has been
    excommunicated from that church.  Why are current Catholics now
    embracing and adopting his program?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    	I never heard that McCartney was previously a Catholic, nor
    	has been excommunicated.
    
    	There is a lot of Protestant teaching that is at odds with
    	Catholic teaching (and vice versa).  That does not mean that
    	either cannot benefit from the other's teaching.  Much is
    	still quite common, and that which differs can be translated,
    	filtered, or rejected (if necessary.)  There is nothing from
    	Promise Keepers that I've seen or been warned about so far 
    	that conflicts with Catholic teaching.
    
    	Many people (myself included) pray for the reunion of all
    	Christians.  I see things like Promise Keepers as being a
    	good vehicle for facilitating that hope.

 The Worship Chanell, on many cable systems, carried some of the PK
 gathering from St. Petersburg, FL last night.  I wasn't able to 
 watch much of it, however.   I haven't followed PK very much, other
 than what Bing and others have posted in here.  However, with so many
 men today abandoning their families and responsibilities in their home,
 I can't help but think that PK is a positive movement, if for nothing
 else than to get men to commit themselves to being *men*, and living
 up to their responsibilities.


 Jim

    From the back of their conference pamphlet:
    
    Seven Promises of PromiseKeepers:
    
    -A promise keeper is committed to honoring Jesus Christ through
    worship, prayer, and obedience to His Word through the power of the
    Holy Spirit.
    
    -Is committed to pursuing vital relationships with a few other men,
    understanding that he needs brothers to help him keep his promises.
    
    -Is committed to practicing spiritual, moral, ethical, and sexual
    purity.
    
    -Is committed to building strong marriages and families through love,
    protection, and biblical values.
    
    -Is committed to supporting the mission of the church by honoring and
    praying for their pastor and by actively giving his time and resources.
    
    -Is committed to reaching beyond any racial and denominational barriers
    to demonstrate the power of biblical unity.
    
    - Is committed to influencing the world, being obedient to the great
    commission, and the great commandment (Mark 12: 30-31)
    
    

    While I was in vacation in Tampa, I was able to attend a 
    sunday service at a local church.  They had a contingency of
    men just back (the day before) from the Promise Keepers event.
    Their testimonies were amazing, the emotion they displayed was
    great.  In fact they never got to do a sermon that day.  The
    men just kept coming up and talking!  I thank God for letting
    me see the works of PK first hand (which by the way was something
    I'd been praying for, for a long time.  Now we need one in Boston!)
    and I praise Him for finding a way to reach today's men.
    
    Jill2

    I'm sorry for procrastinating and not mailing out the information on
    PK, but Jim keeps forgetting to send me his address ;-)

    Seriously, I can see where the PK movement with become like the church
    at Sardis: they profess Christ, but don't possess Him.  For every good
    thing in PK, there's a bad thing.

    Mike

    Hello?  I'll try again to change the direction of this
    note...
    
    One thing that most of the men mentioned was the need for
    shield bearers.  By this they meant that men need to have
    male friends who they can share with and be open with.  Men
    they can share their fears with and their struggles.  Men who
    will stand by them and protect them and pray with them.  Today's
    society tends to make men feel that they have to be strong
    and never show emotion.  Also that they always need to compete
    with other men which makes it harder to share openly.
    
    Well, coming from a woman this should stir up some comment I 
    would think...
    
    Jill2

re: .117

Jill2, I think you've hit a big nail right on the head - the
stand-alone model that we men have been molded into by society
rather than working together & helping each other in our walk.

Be tough, be the man, don't cry, don't ask directions, don't
accept anyone's help.
	-soceity

Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfull the
law of Christ.
	-Galatians 6:2

>    Hello?  I'll try again to change the direction of this note...

I know, it's hard sometimes to keep things on track.  Thanks for your efforts.

I've never been to a PK meeting and haven't been involved in the movement at
all.  But I stand by all seven of the promises they proclaim.

And yes, I understand the need the men you saw spoke of to have other men to
pray with and talk with.  There are some things that are just better
understood by another man, just as for women there are some things better
understood by another woman.  Besides, except in groups, it's not wise for
obvious reasons for anyone to seek out close friends of the opposite sex
outside marriage, at least not to have any private deep sharing with. 

Historically, women have been reasonably good at seeking out other women for
this support, while men have usually been abysmal at it, being taught by
example that they should go it alone, as stoic, monolithic, isolated
entities.  The number of men who could not name a single close friend other
than their spouse with whom they share any of their life struggles or
triumphs is incredible.  Men's interaction tends to be about surface things
like sports.

If Promise Keepers encourages men to find other men to share their lives
with, both in peer-to-peer relationships and mentoring relationships, that
alone would be a worthwhile thing.

Paul

| <<< Note 222.122 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>



| And yes, I understand the need the men you saw spoke of to have other men to
| pray with and talk with. There are some things that are just better understood
| by another man, just as for women there are some things better understood by 
| another woman.  

	I have to agree with the above. It is 100% true. That is until you open
yourself up for another to understand. My belief is if you catagorize who you
will discuss things with, it is taking away a message that God might have for
you. Why couldn't God use a woman to convey His message? By excluding women
from certain areas, you possibly exclude God using an individual.

| Besides, except in groups, it's not wise for obvious reasons for anyone to 
| seek out close friends of the opposite sex outside marriage, at least not to 
| have any private deep sharing with.

	I guess if one were weak in the flesh, this would be an accurate
statement for that person. But I do not believe this should be applied
universally. I don't believe that for most this would be a problem. But, if one
were weak in the flesh, I agree.

| Historically, women have been reasonably good at seeking out other women for
| this support, while men have usually been abysmal at it, being taught by
| example that they should go it alone, as stoic, monolithic, isolated entities.
| The number of men who could not name a single close friend other than their 
| spouse with whom they share any of their life struggles or triumphs is 
| incredible. Men's interaction tends to be about surface things like sports.

	Paul, I am glad to say that this doesn't seem to apply to the friends I
have. Yeah, with some of us we do talk about sports, but when we have a
problem, or a triumph, we share. But your analogy does ring true with many men
though. I think fewer now than 10-15 years ago.

| If Promise Keepers encourages men to find other men to share their lives with,
| both in peer-to-peer relationships and mentoring relationships, that alone 
| would be a worthwhile thing.

	I agree, if they did not take a further step and say it has to be with
men only. At that point, I would have to disagree, and that ties in with what I
said earlier about God using people.



Glen

    Another thing that was mentioned on Sunday was that there
    was a group of woman protesting the event.  In response the
    Pastor said that one of the women from their church was invited
    to the event to talk.  She talked on what the men could expect
    when they returned home and told their wives that they had
    really changed.  He said that she wasn't the only woman that
    spoke. 
    
    Jill2

>| If Promise Keepers encourages men to find other men to share their lives with,
>| both in peer-to-peer relationships and mentoring relationships, that alone 
>| would be a worthwhile thing.
>
>	I agree, if they did not take a further step and say it has to be with
>men only. At that point, I would have to disagree, and that ties in with what I
>said earlier about God using people.

Where are they saying that it has to be with men only?  I'm in about the
same camp as Paul, never been to a PK meeting (though only because my
family was on vacation out of town that week) nor "involved in the movement",
though I've read a couple of PK-related books.  I've not seen any such 
exclusion, certainly not in the seven promises (see .90).  I don't *know* that
it has never been said, only that *I* havn't seen it anywhere.

-Steven

	Paul is right.  It is not wise for people of the opposite
	sex to be the soul counsel to one another.

	Glen, weak in the flesh ?  We're all weak in the flesh!  We
	do best to err on the side of caution.

	Even marriages "thru God (sic)" are made up of people who
	sin.  Any person can be tempted.  

	Karen

 I offer my personal testimony as to the truth and wisdom in Paul's statement.
 I've known many strong men and women who also have fallen.




 Jim

    <I offer my personal testimony as to the truth and wisdom in Paul's
    <statement.
    <I've known many strong men and women who also have fallen.
    
    I've seen it too - satan only needs a tiny hole to get into a situation
    and then bad things start to happen. It is only by the grace of God
    that I'm still standing with regard to this subject.
    
    Love
    Ben

| <<< Note 222.142 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Revive us, Oh Lord" >>>


| Glen, weak in the flesh? We're all weak in the flesh! We do best to err on the
| side of caution.

	Karen, there is NOTHING wrong with doing that. Really. But there is
NOTHING wrong if someone is able to bond with someone of the oppisite sex. 

| Even marriages "thru God (sic)" are made up of people who sin. Any person can 
| be tempted.

	If a marriage through God is there, then the love you have for your
spouse would counter temptation. 



Glen

| <<< Note 222.143 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Learning to lean" >>>


| I offer my personal testimony as to the truth and wisdom in Paul's statement.
| I've known many strong men and women who also have fallen.

	And I've known many who have not. 


Glen

    	The existence of supporting examples will show that something
    	can occur.  The absence of supporting examples does not show
    	that something cannot occur.
    
    	The discussion never said that it will occur in all cases --
    	just that it can happen, so therefore should be avoided on
    	for that reason.

    Naivety is not something for which one can apologize to a spouse who
    has been betrayed.  The pain of infidelity is very real, very painful
    and oftentimes ends the marriage.
    
    I agree that caution is the best medicine.  I have a taped series that
    my Pastor taught on infidelity, part of it is in this conference. 
    Anyone who would like this series sent to them let me know.
    
    

| <<< Note 222.147 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Wanna see my scar?" >>>

| The existence of supporting examples will show that something can occur.  

	I acknowledged that. But I also gave an example of how it would not.

| The discussion never said that it will occur in all cases -- just that it can
| happen, so therefore should be avoided on for that reason.

	Which could prevent God from using someone to help you. In other words,
you are basically letting your free will overide God's Will.


Glen

| <<< Note 222.148 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Naivety is not something for which one can apologize to a spouse who has been 
| betrayed. The pain of infidelity is very real, very painful and oftentimes 
| ends the marriage.

	I agree with the above. But I agree if a marriage is of God, it isn't
likely to happen. Why? Because you would be more aware of what you should or
should not do. You would be thinking of your spouse much more than a marriage
that isn't of God. Think about it.... how many of you in here are first to
point out what is or isn't sin? Are you now saying that you can't do that for
yourselves? 



Glen

Promise Keepers.  That's the name of the topic.  If a marriage exists, 
there is no room to question whether it is 'of God' or not.  The marriage 
has been established via a promise - a contract - between the two people 
and God.  The marriage is the commitment by both parties.

Even an 'ungodly' marriage, contracted in disobedience to God, say between
a believer and an unbeliever (not the case when one is converted after 
marriage) is still a marriage in God's eyes; the commitment has been made, 
and the oath to the LORD has to be held.  This is parallel to Joshua's treaty 
with the Gibeonites, when he did not enquire whether this was ok by the 
LORDM, and later found that they had lied about their conditions.  Israel 
was committed to a permanent treaty with them even so, and breaking this 
brought judgement on Israel which had to be dealt with (2 Samuel 21:1-14).

Only a side issue, but a very important one.  Just because a marriage is
difficult, or going through apparently insuperable difficulties, it doesn't
mean that it was 'a mistake', either in man's eyes or in God's.  If He
permits us to tread a difficult path, it's ultimately for our greater
sanctification to glory for eternity.  The promise remains a promise.

								Andrew

    ( I promise this ties into the topic ;-) ).
    
    First, let me state the premise from which I'm working: we are
    created beings, created by God as revealed in the Bible, and as such we
    have attributes, tendencies, and roles that were ordained by God and
    which shape our natures, whether we like it or not, whether we're aware
    of them or not, whether we're fighting against them or not. They were
    instilled in us by the Creator for our benefit, and for the ideal
    functioning of ourselves and the world as a whole, as God saw fit to
    create it. Therefore any functioning we attempt to do outside of that
    God ordained ideal will be fraught with problems, resulting in greater
    or lesser evils, which any attempt to correct outside of the framework
    of God's law will only result in a steady spiral away from God and from
    the solutions we so desperately seek.
    
    I see many ideologies from this perspective. For instance, was the
    fight for women's rights a legitimate and necessary one? Yes it was,
    but only because laws which, understood in God's light, were intended
    for equality and respect, were through man's darkness, distorted and
    used for the oppression and abuse of women. I personally do not believe
    that women demanding their rights, from a purely societal
    perspective, will ultimately resolve anything. Their rights are God
    given, not man given. Feminism and all of its ilk are, to me, damage 
    control, heroic human attempts to right obvious wrongs, which are doomed 
    to failure because they are reactions to the surface symptoms of a 
    pervasive, insidious and fundamental perversion of God's creation. Men 
    are not the enemy; they are simply the other half of the human race lost 
    in a world askew, and if it seems that they have had the upper hand from 
    a worldly perspective, I would submit that it has been to no one's 
    benefit - not in God's scheme of things. To me the answer lies in 
    returning to God's Word, again, following the premise that we are His 
    creatures and He has provided us with an instruction manual (so to speak) 
    - to use it as a guide and as an attempt to understand who we were
    created to be as men and women, what God intended for us to be 
    individually and one to another, what our true roles, male and female are. 
    God's roles can only provide the freedom we seek, not the restrictions we 
    fear and have experienced. As far as Promise Keepers goes, though I know 
    little more about it than what has been posted here, I cannot help feeling 
    hopeful if its aim is to educate and help men to understand and live as 
    God originally intended.
    
    Rebecca           

Amen, Rebecca

	Rebecca,

	You've got a wonderously large signal-to-noise ratio.

	Thank you!

	Karen

    Amen, Karen!  I enjoy Rebecca's articulate responses.
    
    Mike

    Amen Rebecca!!!  

 Amen indeed...thanks for that!

Me too.  I just don't think anything else is needed!
								Andrew

   Replies which were not substantially concerned with Promise Keepers have 
   been moved to topic 771.

							Andrew Yuille
							co-moderator

  I heard on our local Christian radio station yesterday morning that there
  is planning underway for three (3!) PromiseKeeper conventions in ...

			A u s t r a l i a  (!)

  during the month of October, 1995.  If any of you good folks "DownUnder"
  are at all interested, please take this opportunity and attend and
  participate - you _will_ be blessed.

  In Christ's love,

	Ron

	I got together with a friend not long ago, and she
	told me that one year ago, she was "at bottom" with her
	marriage.  Things were going terribly, and she had reached
	a state of apathy towards her husband, who was never home.

	Her husband attended Promise Keeper's in DC in May, and
	she said he came home a changed man.  She feels that God
	has worked a miracle in her marriage!  The biggest thing that
	PK did was reveal to her husband that he had abandoned his
	responsibilities and neglected his wife and 2 children.  Today,
	their marriage is strong, and growing stronger.

    re: PK in Oz....

    "Input! Need more input!"

    *I* for one, am interested.

    Well!

    The best way to find out, is to look for myself ;')

    I called Focus on the Family in Melbourne (+61-3-9558-2977), who put me
    in contact with Promise Keepers in Melbourne. (+61-3-9544-2155) who
    then (after adding me to the mail[male?]-list ;') gave me the number of
    the office in Sydney (+61-2-982-9437).

    The information I have is sketchy at this time, but it appears that
    there are 'ministers' mini-conferences in October in Melbourne, Sydney
    and Brisbane. A larger 'do' is planned for April '96, with a
    "full-blown" Promise Keeper's Conference in October '96.

    Now to see what transpires ;')

    
    Go to them all Harry dear!  :-)
    
    Jilla

    Mike H,
    
    re: .76 (which was re: your .58) - I repeat my offer in .77 - *please*
    send me a copy of the stuff on PK that you have (sno1-3/c3).
    
    a - I will read it
    
    b - I will ponder it and prayerfully consider it
    
    c - I will (if you desire) scan and OCR it and mail it back to you
    
    I am interested in finding out information about Promise Keepers. And I
    don't mean just their promotional material. If you (Mike) have
    something that will warn me away from something that will be damaging
    to my spiritual health, then I implore you to send that to me.
    
    I assure you that I will read it with an open mind, and if you like, I
    will pass back my critique of it, being as I am, an interested person
    in this group, but not yet a part of them.
    
    Gid Bless you,
    
    Harry

    Hi,
    
    below is the information I received from Promise Keepers Australia. I
    scanned it in, and spell checked it - but any errors are probably mine
    ;')
    
    On reading this I would say that this is a group that I could become
    involved with!
    
    Mike - I am _still_ interested in reading what you have ;')
    
    
    
    
				    PK
			      PROMISE KEEPERS
			      MEN OF INTEGRITY

			      PURPOSE STATEMENT


Promise Keepers is a Christ-centred ministry dedicated to uniting men
through vital relationships to become Godly influences in their world.

<ff>

A call to all Christian Men to pray for their families and city.

				WHO ARE WE?

Promise Keepers is a men's movement which started four years ago in the USA
and has experienced explosive exponential growth of 500% per annum.  It has
been described by leaders and theologians of all Christian persuasions as a
move of God amongst men, rather than a men's move of God.  In 1994 across
the USA six conferences were held drawing 50,000 - 60,000 men to each
gathering.

It is not a para-church Organisation and does not claim "ownership" of
those who participate.

			    OUR AIM IN AUSTRALIA

To raise up men of God, men of integrity for our nation of Australia; to
reclaim and redeem this "Great South Land of the Holy Spirit" for God, for
our families, our children and our grandchildren.


			       WHAT WE BELIEVE

1.	We believe that there is one God, eternally existing in three
	persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

2.	We believe that the Bible is God's written revelation to man and
	that it is verbally inspired, authoritative and without error in the
	original manuscripts.

3.	We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, His virgin birth, sinless
	life, miracles, death on the cross to provide for our redemption,
        bodily resurrection and ascension into heaven, present ministry of
        intercession for us and His return to earth in power and glory.

<ff>

4.	We believe in the personality and deity of the Holy Spirit, that He
        performs the miracle of the new birth in an unbeliever and indwells
        believers, enabling them to live a godly life.

5.	We believe that man was created in the image of God, but because of
        sin, was alienated from God.  That alienation can be removed only
        by accepting through faith God's gift of salvation which was made
        possible by Christ's death.

			   CHRIST-CENTRED MINISTRY

We adhere to the foundational 'truths of historic Christianity which are
centred on the person and work of Jesus Christ.  Above all else, we are
devoted to honour Him in our gatherings, bringing prominence to His name,
"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are 'Yes' in Christ" (2
Corinthians 1:20).  Additionally we are committed to the absolute,
unchanging directives in God's written Word.

As a ministry, we intend to serve the leadership of the local churches and
their men by offering six resources that are designed to help men become
promise keepers:

1.	Conferences: These catalytic events (which include Leadership
        Conferences) unite men to honour Jesus Christ in the context of
        celebration, providing motivation, teaching and fellowship with men
        of diverse heritages.

2.	Educational Services: These leadership seminars help pastors and
        leaders to equip men to become promise keepers.

3.	Field Ministry: Our field ministry team is available to assist
        directly in the local church to develop its men's ministry.

4.	Productions: This resource includes all forms of media - audio and
        video.

<ff>

5.	Publications: Includes all written resources.

6.	Resource Centre: This is a clearing house for serving any person or
        church who requests information or materials.

			   DEDICATED TO UNITING MEN

+	We believe we have a God given mission to unite men who are
        separated by race, geography, culture, denomination and economics. 
        We refer to something much greater than humanistic unification and
        more powerful than political equality.  Rather, we believe we are
        compelled to pursue biblical reconciliation: loving our brother as
        an expression of our love for God. (1 John 4:1921)

+	We believe that reconciliation is clearly the heart of God. (2
        Corinthians 5:18-19)

+	We believe that we are compelled to proclaim the message of
        reconciliation: unbeliever to God, brother to brother, husband to
        wife, wife to husband, parent to child, child to parent, church to
        church and people to people.

+	We are dedicated to addressing the division that has separated the
        body of Christ for too long.

+	We are committed to call men to reconcile in Christ, to live as
        one.

Biblical reconciliation requires that we come together in our common
spiritual poverty in order to receive God's riches, strength and grace -
together.  It means that we allow God to replace our personal prejudice
with His perspective.  It compels us to accept the essential value of every
believer, understanding that we need each other to be complete.

<ff>

	          THE SEVEN PROMISES OF A PROMISE KEEPER

1.	A Man and His God: A Promise Keeper is committed to honouring Jesus
        Christ through worship, prayer and obedience to God's Word in the
        power of the Holy Spirit.

2.	A Man and His Mentors: A Promise Keeper is committed to pursuing
        vital relationships with a few men, understanding that he needs
        brothers to help him keep his promises.

3.	A Man and His Integrity: A Promise Keeper is committed to
        practising spiritual, moral, ethical and sexual purity.

4.	A Man and His Family: A Promise Keeper is committed to building
        strong marriages and families through love, protection and biblical
        values.

5.	A Man and His Church: A Promise Keeper is committed to supporting
        the mission of his church by honouring and praying for his pastor
        and actively giving his time and resources.

6.	A Man and His Brothers: A Promise Keeper is committed, to reaching
        beyond racial and denominational barriers to demonstrate the power
        of biblical unity.

7.	A Man and His World: A Promise Keeper is committed to influencing
        his world, being obedient to the Great Commandment (Mark 12:30-31)
        and the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20).

<ff>

NSW Office
PO Box 302
Dee Why NSW 2099
Ph/Fax : (02) 982-9437

National Office
PO Box 5211
Clayton Vic 3168
Phone:	(03) 544-2155
Fax: (03) 540-0116
    

    the following reply is 179 lines long - to the DECwindows guys - sorry
    ;'}
    
    I felt I should not split the document into two, as the point where
    the break would take place was not really a 'logical' point.
    
    God Bless.

    Will do Harry.  I finally got a copy to Jim last week.
    
    btw - I found out recently that Bill McCartney had a daughter get
    pregnant, not once, but twice, by his own players while coaching at the
    University of Colorado.  Here I thought a Promise Keeper had some
    control over his household.
    
    Mike

Not necessarily so, no more than any other Christian man.  I believe the
Bible says we should be leaders of our household, not dictators.

    I'm willing to acknowledge that Coach made his decision for God late in
    life so his children weren't raised Biblically.  I know he was raised a
    Catholic, but I'm not sure when he converted.  However, we know the way
    to avoid such trials is to secure the Biblical foundation in your home
    with all family members.  I'm also surprised that his players would
    disrespect him enough to do that with his daughter.
    
    Mike

    re:  .170, 172
    
    Mike, 
    
    I need to let you know that I perceive these statements as harsh 
    and judging.  I hope I am interpreting your statements incorrectly
    and that you did not intend them to be so. 
    
    I would hope that Bill's sin, and his childrens' sins, and his 
    players' sins are not viewed as worse or more severe (or worth 
    more 'demerits') than my own sins or your own sins or anyone 
    else's. 
    
    Mary Jo 
    

re: .170-172

>   ...However, we know the way
>    to avoid such trials is to secure the Biblical foundation in your home
>    with all family members.

Agreed.  My .171 was just trying to point out that being a member of PK
dosn't guarantee that your famlily will behave any differently than if you
are a Christian but not a member.  Promise Keepers will help (as any good
Christian organization will), but every family is different of course.
 

    	I wouldn't be surprised to find out that McCartney's experiences
    	with his daughter and what he learned from them were major
    	influences in the formation of Promise Keepers.

Sorry I'm late to this topic.  Hard to keep up on notes when work is busy.  But

Two comments:

PK in Seattle was awesome, as it undoubtedly was in all cities.  Knowing the local people 
who were involved, and seeing Howard Hendricks (President of Dallas Seminary) on stage 
this year and last (in Portland) and others that I know are solid Evangelicals, I have to ask 
M. Heisler what is the point of his notes?  I'm certain that these people investigated PK 
before putting their reputations on the line.  It's well and good to question movements, to 
guard truth closely, but come on.  PK is about  as mainstream Christian as you can get, and 
its goal - that of building up men in Christ - is one of the most needed tasks I can think of in 
America.  The gospel is the main message of PK, and it is clearly presented at each 
conference.  What is the point of spreading rumors, picking at its inclusivity, and stirring up 
unfounded controversy?  What happened to the Ephesians 4 calls to unity?   It's better to 
act positively to influence those around us for Christ than to snipe from the sidelines.

Second, I'd hoped in this note to hear of the ongoing impact of PK.   What kind of things are 
men doing now?  I know that our church has been sending people to the leadership 
meetings, and our men's retreat is picking up on the theme of men assuming Godly 
leadership, to go deeper.  What are others doing - things we can all pick up on and learn 
from?

Don Randall
Seattle

Thanks, Don.

Yes, can anyone tell of how Promise Keepers has influenced their church?

No one in my church has gone, at least that I'm aware of.  But someone is
starting a bible study in two weeks to study the book, which I'm going to go
to.  So stay tuned.

Paul

re: ongoing effect

I've not been (was out of town on vacation during the Atlanta
event), but have read their bi-monthly magazine for the least 3
issues as well as some other PK literature.  One co-worker of
mine went; he, I, and one other co-worker are joining as a small
support group and will be starting through the "Seven
Promises..." book together on Friday.  I'll note here how it goes.

Oh yea, and I told my wife "next year's vacation gets planned
around the PK event" ;-)  -- and she agreed.

-Steven

>   Hendricks (President of Dallas Seminary) on stage  this year and last
    
    Hi Don, 
    
    I thought Chuck Swindoll was president of Dallas Seminary, that he had
    left the E-Free Church in Fullerton to take that position.  Has he left
    Dallas so soon? 
    
    /John

I had heard that Charlie Swindoll had become the president of Dallas Seminary, which 
Howard Hendricks had been for many years.  I also heard that he was moving back to the 
Fullerton church.   Bottom line, I don't exactly know.  Dr. Hendricks was president for quite a 
while, and may be Emeritus now.   Still an active guy!

- Don R.

    Don check your word wrap margin.
    
    Mike

<<< Note 222.177 by PAULKM::WEISS "For I am determined to know nothing, except..." >>>

> can anyone tell of how Promise Keepers has influenced their church?
    
    	We have a significant core of men from our Catholic parish,
    	including our pastor, who have become very involved with Promise
    	Keepers.  Our long-standing men's group has been revitalized.  
    	Recently our pastor did a 4-week Sunday sermon series on violence,
    	and one of those weeks focused on what the Promise Keepers program
    	does to address violence.  The pastor invited all in the
    	congregation -- male and female, young and old, married and single,
    	in short everyone -- to adopt the essence of the 7 promises in
    	their lives.  (Though the wording of 7 promises is written for men, 
    	it is easily translated for women too -- if you don't want to get
    	hung up on politicizing the fact that this is a men's movement...)
    
    	Various men have given testimonies about the movement and the
    	effect it has had on their lives.  One in particular was quite
    	moving.  He carried a duffel bag of rocks to the front of the
    	church.  Seven large rocks.  Then he went on to talk about needing
    	support of others, and as he went through the 7 promises, he handed
    	a rock to various random people for each promise.  This symbolized
    	others carrying his burdens -- his rocks.  On the way into church
    	each person was given a small rock, and at a certain point in his
    	talk he invited us all to place our rocks at the foot of the cross
    	in the front of the church.  The seven who now carried his large
    	rocks were also asked to place those at the foot of the cross.  The
    	message was that not only are we to place our own burdens at the
    	foot of the cross, but we are called to carry others' (and ask
    	others to carry ours) and place them at the foot as well.
    
    	I'll be attending Promise Keepers next summer, as will a large
    	contingent from my church.

	Just found out yesterday that the men will be studying
	"The Seven Promises of a Promise Keeper" this year during
	their monthly Men's Growth Seminars.

	They'll kick it off with a talk from Jack Hayford next month.

	I'm very encouraged (and am trying to convince Jamie he
	doesn't want to miss this!) ;-)

    amen Sis, amen

    
    My church has very committed men in it.  It's one of the things 
    that impressed about this church.  PK has sparked our men on to 
    holding each other accountable.  There are several small groups 
    include one started by the single guys.  It's really encouraging
    to see men living for God.  We've had a group of around 30-40 men
    go for the last two years.  
    
    Jilla

    	Isn't there supposed to be a Promise Keepers' pastors conference
    	of some sort in Atlanta in Feb 1996?  I heard they were expecting
    	75,000 pastors!

    	Hey, Mike.  GREAT NOTE!
    
    	:^)

    Mike,
    
    care to expand on that "-< How sad >-" ? I have been waiting a while to
    see the info. you have re: PK's. I have contacted them here in Oz, and
    I have all I need to see from their 'side'. You have expressed in here
    your reservations, and made a few comments, but nothing really
    'substantial' (this is not an accusation). You asked if anyone was
    interested quite a few back, and I raised my hand.
    
    I *know* I need some help in becoming the husband my wife deserves, and
    the father my children need and deserve. If PK can help me achieve
    that then I will be attending.
    
    But! Your comments have got me in a 'holding pattern', and until I read
    your material, I ain't going another step further (for a while).
    
    Mike, I respect your opinion. _Especially_ after your prompting me to do
    more research in the the Toronto thing (no, I _don't_ want to open that
    rat-hole here).
    
    waiting...

    Harry, send me your address.

    {sigh}
    
    it's in my Intro. ;') but, 'cause you're a Brother, I'll cut you some
    slack ;') :') :') :') :'D :'D
    
    infernal - SNO1-3/C3
    
    or 
    
    PO Box 31
    Umina Beach
    NSW 2257
    Australia

    I would like to have a copy of that PK info as well.  Could you
    send a copy to:
    
    Dana Brown
    225 Secretariat Ct.
    Ashland, VA  23005
    
    Thanks

and I

Steven Vore
8560 Birch Hollow Drive
Roswell GA USA 30076-1175

I would like a copy, Mike

Paul Weiss
26 Marblehead Rd
Windham, NH 03087

    as I
    thomas Dawson
    1425 McArthur
    Colorado springs, CO 80909

    
    And me
    
    Mary Jo Hoepner
    8250 Mustang PLace
    Colorado Springs CO  80908
    
    

    me too!
    
    Nancy Morales
    880 Keith Lane
    Santa Clara, CA 95054

 Not me, but I will be a...

snarf

 Rats!

Jim!  You deleted your first entry of .201!  I really wanted to see the time
stamp to see how close it was.  I saw this note up to .198, thought "should I
snarf it? Naw." and kept on NEXT UNSEENING.  I popped back to this note to
see your preparatory .199, and entered a note as fast as I could.  When it
entered, even as it came up it said it was note .200 of .201, so yours was
right on its heels.  Next time, leave it so we can see how close it was.

Gotcha!

Paul

 Yeah you got me alright ;-)




 didn't think anybody was watching..

    Jim already has his. ;-)

    Mike,
    
    before you reel of a zillion copies. Is this stuff typewritten? (or
    computer printed).
    
    If so, I can have an electronic copy of the material available to you
    within 2 days of having received it. I can then send that to you, to
    forward out to whomever whenever.
    
    H

    
    	Jamie went to a men's breakfast on Saturday featuring
    	Jack Hayford as a speaker.  For members of our church,
    	it was a kick-off to the year's study - The Seven Promises
    	of a Promise Keeper. 
    
    	Gavin Mcleod also spoke, and told of how he led Ted Knight to
    	the Lord shortly before he died.
    
    	Joe Fitzgerald of the Boston Herald also spoke.
    
    	Jamie really enjoyed it.
    

 I enjoy reading Joe Fitzgerald's columns in the Boston Herald..interesting
 about Gavin Mcleod and Ted Knight!




 Jim

    
    	yes, especially (from what I gather), since Ted's wife was
    	an atheist at the time !
    
    	Karen
    

    Dear friends,
    
         I also had the pleasure of being at the Promise Keepers meeting
    saturday morning. Although it was raining out side, the SON was
    shinning in that meeting hall. The morning started with some great
    praise and worship music and as we all (aprox 1000 men) sang I looked
    around and said to myself "look whats going on here". Men from Maine,
    New Hamphsire, Mass, Conn and Rhode Island all of one accord... JESUS!
    Not to mention many denominations...all of one accord ....Jesus Christ!
    It was wonderfull also to hear this number of men laugh, I mean really
    belly laugh at some of speakers (Jack Hayford,Daven Mcloud, and Haddon
    Hayden's) humor. Men's worship, men's laughter, men's tears.
    
    
                            All BEST IN CHRIST.....JACK PERRY