Conference yukon::christian_v7

I started this topic because of Mike Heiser's assertions that Finis Dake
supports a Tri-theistic doctrine (three Gods).  I have used the Dake's
Annotated Reference Bible (DARB) for some study topics and found it to be 
more than adequate to the task.  However, this one point has bothered
Mike enough to call Dake a heretic about Dake's supposed tri-theistic
doctrine.  I have found some notes in the DARB about the Trinity and
will be entering them in here as time permits.

In the meantime, how do you view the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
And I'm primarily interested in people who believe in the Trinity and
not a rehash of those arguments as to whether there is a Trinity or not.
Thanks.

Mark

P.S. to .1

To summarize, the Trinity doctrine (that I understand) says that God
is Three Persons, One God.  Each Person is distinct from the other;
each person is God; they are One God.

  Are they also considered equal? or is one greater then another?

  opinions?  

         robin

Quicunque Vult

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold
the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt
he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:  That we worship one God in Trinity,
and Trinity in Unity,

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another
of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one
uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost
Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every
Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, There be three Gods,
or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created,
nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one
Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less
than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity
in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of
the substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God, and perfect Man:  of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father,
as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood into God;

One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, So God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third
day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty; from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give
account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that
have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he
cannot be saved.

>  Are they also considered equal? or is one greater then another?

In some ways, yes.  In some ways, no.

Yes, in that it would have not been robbery for Jesus to be equal with
God but he didn't grasp it, but instead made himself submissive to Him.

They are One, yet in the Godhead, The Father is the head of Christ and
the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

(I'm nearly done with transcribing Dake's view and you can see whether
you think his head is twisted or if it is rather orthodox.)

MM

The following Note is 417 lines long.  Fair warning...

DARB p. 280 NT

_89 Proofs of a Divine Trinity_

What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and
distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal Spirit
body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human
being, angel, or any other being that has his own body, soul, and spirit. 
We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the
indwelling of the personal soul and spirit.  The soul is that which feels
and the spirit is that which knows.

The doctrine of the trinity can be clearly seen, being understood but the
visible things that are made, even to His eternal power and Godhead (Romans
1:20).  What on earth is created in the image and likeness of God?  Man
(Genesis 1:26-29).  Do God's image and likeness consist only of moral and
spiritual powers?  If so, it can be concluded that man is only a moral and
spiritual being.  Is God bodiless?  If so, we can conclude that man is also
bodiless.  Is God only one being made up of several persons or beings in
the one being?  If so, we can conclude that man is one person or being made
up of many.  Does God need a flesh body in order to have any kind of body?
No!  There are such things as spirit and heavenly bodies.  See 1 Corinthians
15:35-38.  From this passage we learn that all things in creation - grain,
fish, birds, beasts, man, angels, and even the planets have bodies, sizes,
shapes, and forms.

The Bible declares that God has a body, shape, image, likeness, bodily
part, a personal soul and spirit, and all other things that constitute a
being or a person with a body, soul, and spirit (see note r, John 4:24;
note a, John 5:37; _The Doctrine of Man_, p. 618 OT)

Angels, cherubim, seraphim, and all other spirit beings have spirit bodies
and personal souls and spirits.  They have been seen with natural eyes of
men over 100 times in Scripture (note n, Hebrews 13:2).  If all other
spirit beings have spirit bodies, could not the members of the Trinity also
have spirit bodies?  The 284 passages on spirits in Scripture prove that
spirit bodies are just as real and capable of operation in the material
worlds as are flesh beings.  There is no such thing as a world of creation
made up of invisible substance.  The so-called _spirit_world_ must be
understood simply as spirit beings inhabiting material worlds created by
God.  Heaven itself is a material planet (Genesis 1:1; Hebrews 11:10-16),
having cities, mansions, furniture, inhabitants, living conditions, etc.
See Heaven, p. 622 OT.

God has been seen bodily by human eyes many times (references omitted for
brevity).

In over 20,000 references about God in Scripture we get to know all we need
to know about the subject.  If we will take the Bible literally as to what
it says about Him, as we do with other things the subject will be very
clear; but if we make God a mystery, ignore the plain statements of
Scripture about Him, and refuse to believe the many descriptions of God
given by those who have seen the one, two, and three separate persons
called "God," then we will remain in ignorance.

It is true there are a few figurative statements about God in Scripture, as
there are about man and other things, but shall we do away with the reality
of man and these other things because of a few figures of speech? Let is
make man mere salt and lights (Matthew 5:13-14), if we are going to do away
with God because of a few figures of speech.

We submit the following facts in Scripture to prove a Divine Trinity of separate
persons in the Godhead:

  1) The word one means one in unity as well as one in number.  It means
  unity in 1 John 5:7, as it does in John 17:11,21-23, and yet these three
  persons, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, are spoken of as one
  each in number and individually in Scripture.  There is one God the
  Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 8:6;
  Ephesians 4:3-6).  Thus there are three separate persons in divine
  individuality and divine plurality.  The father is called God (1
  Corinthians 8:6), the Son is called God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 1:8; John
  1:1-2; 20:28), and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3-4).  As
  individual persons each can be called God and collectively they can be
  spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity.  The word God is
  used either in a singular or a plural word, like sheep.

  Everything that could be spoken of God collectively applies equally to
  each member of the Godhead as an individual, but there are some things
  that are said of each person of the Deity as to position, office, and
  work that could not be spoken of as of the other members of the Godhead. 
  The Father is the head of Christ (1 Corinthians 11:3); the Son is the
  only begotten of the Father (2 John 3), and the Holy Ghost proceeds from
  both the Father and the Son (John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 2:34).

  2) Names of God prove plurality of persons.  The Hebrew Elohim is the
  word for God in Genesis 1:1 and in over 2700 other places in the OT.  It
  is a uniplural noun meaning Gods and is so translated 239 times (Genesis
  3:5; Exodus 22:28; 1 Samuel 4:8; Daniel 2:11; 4:6-9; 5:11, 14; etc.). 
  Sometimes Elohim is used with plural verbs and pronouns, "the Gods they
  caused me to wander" (Genesis 20:13), and "there the Gods they appeared
  unto him" (Genesis 35:7).

  3) Plural pronouns are used of God, proving plurality of persons (Genesis
  1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; John 14:23; 17:11, 22-23).

  4) First, second, and third personal pronouns are used hundreds of times
  in Scripture, referring to one, two, and three persons of the Godhead
  in the same sense that they are used of men.  Sometimes the different
  members of the Deity use them to and of one another in the same sense man
  uses them.  In John 17 alone Jesus uses them 162 times in speaking to and
  of His Father.  Cp. John 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15.
  Sometimes the singular pronouns are used of the whole Godhead of three
  members as unity (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 44:6, 8; 45:5, 21; 46:9;
  Hosea 13:4), just like the who church as a unit is spoken of as a man and
  he (Ephesians 2:14-15; 4:13; 5:25-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8).

  5) Man is become as one of us proves plurality of persons (Genesis 3:22)

  6) Two and three persons called God have been seen by the same men at the
  same time and places as being separate persons (Daniel 7:9-14; Matthew
  3:16-17; John 1:31-34; Acts 7:54-60; Revelation 6:16; 7:9-17; 21:22,
  22:3)

  7) Two Lords are mentioned in Genesis 19:24; on eon earth and one in
  heaven.

  8) Two persons are referred to in the OT. See Psalms 8:5-6 with Hebrews
  2:5-18; Psalms 16:8-10 with Acts 2:25-36; Psalms 22:1-22 with Matthew
  27:35, 39-43, 45-46; Hebrews 9:14 10:5-12; Psalms 40:6-10 with Hebrews
  10:5-7; and Psalms 45:6-7 with Hebrews 1:8-9

  9) Two Lords are mentioned sitting side by side (Psalm 110:1, 5; Matthew
  22:44; 26:64; Acts 2:33-34; 7:54-56; Romans 8:34; Ephesians 1:20;
  Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 1:3, 13; 8:1; 10:12; 12:2; 1 Peter 3:22;
  Revelation 22:3)

  10) Two persons are mentioned and required in order to understand the
  plain language of Psalms 2; 89:19; 132:17; Proverbs 30:4;
  Isaiah 4:2;10:16-17; 28:16; 49:1-10; 50:4-11; 52:13-53:12; 62:11; Micah
  5:1-5; Jeremiah 23:4-8; 33:14-26; Zechariah 3:8-10; 6:12-13.  In these
  passages one is anointed, becomes the son of, is sent by, is taught by,
  and becomes the servant of the other and both are called Lord.

  11) Three self-acting persons - the Lord God, the Messiah, and the Holy
  Spirit, are referred to as blessing, anointing, sending and doing things
  for another in Isaiah 11:2; 42:1-7; 48:16; 59:21; 61:1-2; 63:1-14;
  Zechariah 12:10-13:2.


  12) In Zechariah 1:7-21 the Lord of Hosts and the Angel of the Lord (also
  called Lord, 1:18-20; 2:1-13) are talking together.  One Lord says of the
  other Lord that He has sent Him to Israel (2:8-13).  One Lord refers to
  Himself as Me and to the Lord of Hosts as His and He (2:8-11).  This
  conference continues throughout Zechariah until 13:6-7 where both Lords
  are called fellows or associates.

  13) Jesus Christ is called the son of Abraham, David, Mary, and of God
  (Matthew 1:1; Mark 1:1; 6:3).  He is just as much a separate person from
  God as He is of these other persons.

  14) Two persons are referred to many times in the NT (Matthew 11:27; Luke
  23:46; John 1:1-2, 18; 5:19-20; 14:1-9; 16:15; 17:3, 10; Acts 2:38-39;
  3:13-26; Philippians 2:5-11; Ephesians 3:5; Collosians 1:15; 2
  Thessalonians 2:16-17; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:1-3; Revelation 20:6; 22:3)

  15) Two and three persons are mentioned in the introductions to NT books
  (Romans 1:1-4; 1 Corinthians 1:3; James 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-3; 2 John 3;
  Revelation 1:1-16; etc.)

  16) God is the head of Christ and thus greater than He in position (1
  Corinthians 3:23; 11:3; 1 Chronicles 29:11; John 14:28)

  17) Christ is the mediator between God and man, not between Himself and
  man (1 Timothy 2:5)

  18) Two and three persons are referred to in every NT book (references
  omitted from this one for brevity; it goes on to list them all and there
  are a lot.)  In no conceivable was can we force a meaning of three
  persons on one person; three beings in one being; or three manifestations
  of only one person in and of these or any other Scripture.

  19) There are three distinct and separate witnesses that bear witness of
  Christ (1 John 5:5-11, 13, 20).  Both God and man require this many
  _personal_ and _separate_ witnesses to confirm any point (Matthew 18:16;
  2 Corinthians 13:1).  The water and the blood of 1 John 5:8 could not be
  accepted as accredited personal witnesses in themselves.  The Father, the
  Son, and the Holy Ghost are the only personal witnesses of this passage. 
  If we consider these to be only one person, then there are not the
  required number of witnesses to establish the truth of the Sonship of
  Jesus Christ.  We are forced by the facts to admit that all of 1 John
  5:7-8 as inspired Scripture and therefore, the fact that the Father,
  the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and personal witnesses
  instead of being only one person or witness.

  _Many Scriptures conform these three witnesses_:

  (a) The Father (Jeremiah 29:23; Malachi 3:5; John 5:31-37, notes Romans
  1:9; Hebrews 1:1-2, 2:3-4)

  (b) The Son (Isaiah 55:4, John 18:37; 1 Timothy 6:13; Revelation 1:5)

  (c) The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:16; John 15:26; Hebrews 10:15; 1 John 3:6)

  If all three are witnesses, then they must be separate persons.  The
  water and the blood simply confirm the intelligent testimonies of the
  three persons of the Godhead and give additional weight to the Sonship of
  Jesus.

  20) The words THROUGH and BY, used of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit,
  but not once of the Father prove God to be a separate person and the Head
  and Director of all things done BY and THROUGH them (1 Corinthians 3:23;
  11:3; John 10:29; 14:28; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15; Acts 2:33-34)

  [Writer's note: From here on, when you see [rfo] it means "references
  have been omitted for brevity.  If there is a piece where you want to see
  the references, please contact me.  It slows down the transcription of
  these notes.]

  (a) THROUGH Jesus Christ [many rfo]
  (b) BY Jesus Christ [many rfo]
  (c) THROUGH the Holy Ghost [some rfo]
  (d) BY the Holy Ghost [some rfo]

  _Proofs that Jesus is not the Father_:

  21) The Father was in heaven all the time Jesus was on earth (Matthew
  5:16; 48)

  22) Christ now sits at the right hand of the Father (see note 9 above)

  23) Jesus said He would confess men BEFORE MY FATHER, proving He is not
  the Father (Matthew 10:32; Revelation 3:5)

  24) Jesus always prayed to the Father as a separate person (Matthew
  11:25; John 17)

  25) The Father existed OUTSIDE the body of Jesus, so He could not be
  Jesus ([rfo])

  26) Both Jesus and Satan refer to a God separate from "Jesus" (Matthew
  4:6-10)

  27) God was the Father of Jesus, not Jesus, Himself [rfo]

  28) In parables Jesus illustrates His relationship to the Father as that
  of separate persons [rfo]

  29) Men are taught to go directly to the Father and not to pray to Jesus
  (John 14:12-15; 15:16; 16:23-26)

  30) The Father knew things Jesus did not know [rfo]

  31) Others saw Jesus as a separate person from the Father [rfo]

  32) Jesus committed His own spirit to the Father, not to Himself [rfo]

  33) Jesus claimed that he came FROM God and was GOING BACK TO God [rfo]

  34) God is a Spirit and not flesh and blood, like Jesus was [rfo]

  35) Men on earth with Jesus heard God speak as a separate person FROM
  heaven [rfo]

  36) Jesus claimed to be the Son of God, not the father, Himself [rfo]

  37) Jesus called the Father My God even after the resurrection [rfo]

  38) Jesus called God My Father 57 times [rfo].  How could He be His own
  God and Father and beget Himself?

  39) When Jesus was born on earth angles and men still recognized God in
  heaven (Luke 2:7-16).  Were they mistaken about God?  Was the child all
  of God on earth and was He in heaven also?

  40) Mary and Joseph acted with utmost ignorance if the baby Jesus was all
  of God, for they presented him to the Lord who was someone other than
  Jesus

  41) Simeon had a revelation and guidance from the Holy Spirit that Jesus
  was not the only member of the Godhead (Luke 2:26-33)

  42) John the Baptist knew the Father but he did not know the Son (John
  1:31-34)

  43) The Son died, not the Father. [rfo]

  44) _Jesus was the only begotten Son of the father, so could not be the
  Father or the begetter of Himself (John 1:14)

  45) Jesus claimed that He could not and did not do anything of Himself,
  but that the father worked through Him [rfo]

  46) He did not come to do his own will but that of the Father who sent
  Him. [rfo]

  47) His doctrine was not His, but the father's

  48) He did not speak of Himself, but of the Father who has sent Him.
  [rfo]

  49) He did not please Himself, but the Father [rfo]

  50) He was a son, not a Father over the house of God [rfo]

  51) He had the same relation to His Father that men have with Satan (Jon
  8:16, 35-44; 9:4)

  52) He honored the Father as all men should (John 8:49)

  53) He did not seek His own glory, but that of the Father [rfo]

  54) He knew the Father but was not the Father (John 8:55; 10:15)

  55) He was loved of the Father as a separate person (John 10:17-18)

  56) He kept the father's commandments and they were not His own. [rfo]

  57) His disciples were given to Him by the Father [rfo]

  58) He was eqaul with the Father in some things but not in others [rfo]

  59) He and the Father were in unity and in each other in the same sense
  believers are to be in unity and in God [rfo]

  60) He was the only way to the Father [rfo]

  61) He said, "I am not alone" or the only witness of my Sonship.  The
  Father is another witness. [rfo]

  62) Over 80 times Jesus affirmed that He was not the Father and not the
  only person in the Godhead.  Christ was the speaker, but not the one
  spoken _of_ or _to_. [rfo]  Is it any wonder that the Godhead, the
  Trinity, and the unity of God are so mysterious when we force separate
  persons to become only one person, all because we do not want to
  recognize the true meaning of the word _one_ as referring to unity, not
  to individuality in some Scriptures?  Men would be just as great a
  mystery if we forced the meaning of _all men_ to refer to one person.

  63) He was not as great as His Father [rfo]

  64) The Father (Matthew 3:7), Jesus (John 10:38), angels (Luke 1:32-35),
  demons (Mark 3:11; 5:7), and apostles (Matthew 16:16; John 1:14; Romans
  8:32; 2 John 3), all declare the sonship of Jesus, but not once do they
  declare a Christ-fatherhood.

  65) The Father and the Son spoke to each other in audible voices at the
  same time and place being heard by many witnesses [rfo].  In no single
  instance could such speaking be explained as the voice of one individual
  or be used to prove one person in the Deity.

  66) The word _both_ is used of the Father and the Son, proving two
  persons [rfo]          

  67) The word _also_ is used of the Father and the Son, proving two
  persons [rfo]          

  68) The statement "They have not known the Father, NOR ME" proves two
  persons (John 16:3, 5)

  69) Christ received all power in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18). 
  Someone had to be greater than He was to give Him that power, Who was it
  (John 14:28)?

  70) Jesus was resurrected and exalted by the Father, so He could not be
  the Father [rfo]

  71) God made Jesus both Lord and Christ [rfo]

  72) Six times in John 14:1-9 Jesus made it clear that he was not the
  father

  _Holy Spirit not Jesus or the Father_:

  73) The Holy Spirit is _another_ from both the Father and the Son (John
  5:32; 14:16-17, 26; 15:26; 16:7-15)

  74) It was necessary that Jesus go away so that the Holy Spirit could
  come. [rfo]

  75) He has been seen with the natural eyes as a separate from the father
  and the Son [rfo]

  76) He is symbolized as a separate person with Christ, both of them
  _before_ God who sits on the throne [rfo]

  77) He could not be sent from God until Christ was glorified, but would
  then be sent from both the Father and the Son [rfo]

  78) He was sent from the Father to endue Jesus with power, which required
  three persons: the one who sent Him, the one being sent, and the one who
  received him. [rfo]

  79) A clear distinction is made of the names of all three persons [rfo]

  80) A clear distinction is made between the Son _who prays_, the father
  _to Whom He prays_, and the Holy Spirit _for Whom He prays (John 14:16)

  81) A clear distinction is made between the Son on the right hand of the
  Father, the Father on the left hand of the Son,and the Holy Ghost who is
  sent from the Father and the Son [rfo]

  82) The Son _was already given_ (John 3:16), when the Spirit _was not yet
  given_ (John 7:39)

  83) The Son can be blasphemed with forgiveness possible; but if the
  Spirit be blasphemed no forgiveness is possible.  This proves two
  distinct persons. [rfo]

  84) The Samaritan _received Jesus_, but had _not yet received the Holy
  Ghost_ (Acts 8:5-25)

  85) Jesus could do no miracle by Himself (John 5:19), but by the Holy
  Ghost He did many miracles [rfo]

  86) The Holy Ghost came not to speak of or glorify himself, but to seek
  of and glorify Jesus. (John 16:7-15)

  87) The descent of the Holy Spirit proved the arrival of Jesus in heaven
  to sit at the right hand of God, thus proving three persons [rfo]

  88) Jesus claimed even after the resurrection that he was not a spirit
  being so he could not be the Father or the Holy Spirit who are spirit
  beings [rfo]

  89) In the last book of the Bible the Trinity is seen as working together
  in all things (Revelation 1:4-6; 3:1; 4:5; 5:6; 21:10; 22:17)

    For a biblical and historical discussion on the trinity, see E. Calvin
    Beisner's "God in Three Persons" (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House
    Publishers, 1984); and Edward H. Bickersteth, "The Trinity" (Grand
    Rapids, MI: Kregel, 1976).
    
    I only glanced through his marathon, but one really need not look any
    further than the first paragraph.
    
    He's implying that each member of the trinity has His own distinct
    spirit-bodies and that they are 3 separate and distinct beings (i.e., 3
    Gods).  Tritheism runs contrary to all of Scripture, which teaches 1
    God revealed in 3 Persons.
    
Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: the LORD our god is one LORD:

    Since God, according to these Faith types, has a body, His presence
    would be confined to an area occupied by His body.  And since God's
    body supposedly has definite physical dimensions, it would mean God
    cannot truly be at those places which are not currently occupied by His
    body.  In other words, the Faith God cannot be omnipresent.  The Bible,
    on the other hand, presents a God who transcends all such limitations. 
    The 1 true God is everywhere present in all His fullness.
    
Jeremiah 23:23-24
    Am I a God at hand saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?  Can any hide 
    himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD.  Do not 
    I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

Psalms 139:7-10
    Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy 
    presence?  If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in 
    hell, behold, thou art there.  If I take the wings of the morning, and 
    dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;  Even there shall thy hand lead 
    me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Matthew 28:20
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I
am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Ephesians 1:23, 4:10
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that
he might fill all things.
    
Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision,
Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

    Ken Copeland apparently reasoned that a God with a physical body needs
    a physical habitat.  So he conveniently transforms heaven into a
    planet.  How he can squeeze God onto a planet is amazing.  Especially
    since Solomon said that heaven itself cannot contain God.
    
I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of
heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

    Faith teachers, like Dake, have arrived at their physical God by
    erroneously taking verses which figuratively describe God in human
    terms, and reading them literally.  Thus God is made out to be a spirit
    being with a body, complete with eyes and eyelids (Psalm 11:4), ears
    (Psalm 18:6), nostrils (Psalm 18:8), a mouth (Numbers 12:8), hands and
    fingers (Psalm 8:3-6), and feet (Exodus 24:10).  Yet if these verses
    were meant to be taken literally, it would also have to be concluded
    that God has feathers and wings as well (Psalm 91:4) - which is absurd.
    
    The simple fact is that such human descriptions were used primarily to
    help us understand and relate to our Maker.  They were never intended
    to convey the notion that God possesses physical features like His
    human creation.  The Creator is, after all, "God, and not man" (Hosea
    11:9).  Jesus made it clear tha God is spirit (John 4:24), not a spirit
    being with a body (Deuteronomy 4:12).
    
    Some may try to point to Christ as proof of God having a body. 
    However, all such appeals fail on at least 2 counts.  First, the vast
    majority of verses cited by Dake & Faith Inc., are from the Old
    Testament, during a time before Christ took human form (John 1:14, I
    John 4:2, II John 7).  Second, and most importantly, the Lord Jesus is
    not only fully God, but fully man.  He is the God-man.  His physical
    attributes are not due to His deity, but to His humanity (Romans 8:3,
    Philippians 2:7).
    
    Mike

212.15 Mike Heiser

>    Heresy is a contradiction to established doctrines.  Is it possible
>    for some heresy teachings not to lead to destruction?  I just glanced
>    over Dake's marathon on the trinity.  Outside of the first paragraph,
>    most of it looks legitimate.  Will a belief in a 9-being trinity lead
>    to destruction?

(At the request of another, Mike, I've brought this here so we don't 
have this conversation in three or four different places.  I usually 
respond where asked.)

It might lead to destruction because someone may twist the ideas so
far from the Truth.  I never heard of the 9-being Trinity concept
before, and find it rather silly to dissect it so.  Secondly, 
saying Three Distinct Persons: One God is NOT polytheism (or tri-theism)
though some prominent sects might have you thinking that way.
Denying the deity of Christ is a doctrine that may lead to destruction;
and this is done by leaving Christ out of the Godhead; yet Christ is
separate and distinct from the Father, and the Holy Spirit.  And if
you agree with Dake on all except the first paragraph, then you also
see that this is so: three distinct Persons: One God.

What problem did you have with the first paragraph?  Reprinted here
for easy access:

>-------------------
What we mean by Divine Trinity is that there are three separate and
distinct persons in the Godhead, each one having His own personal Spirit
body, personal soul, and personal spirit in the same sense each human
being, angel, or any other being that has his own body, soul, and spirit. 
We mean by body, whether a spirit body or a flesh body, the house for the
indwelling of the personal soul and spirit.  The soul is that which feels
and the spirit is that which knows.
--------------------<

>What problem did you have with the first paragraph?  
    
    I took care of that and my belief in the trinity in .8.  

Note 219.8 FRETZ::HEISER
     -< I believe in 1 God revealed in 3 Persons >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Deuteronomy 6:4
>Hear, O Israel: the LORD our god is one LORD:
>
>    Since God, according to these Faith types, has a body, His presence
>    would be confined to an area occupied by His body.  And since God's
>    body supposedly has definite physical dimensions, it would mean God
>    cannot truly be at those places which are not currently occupied by His
>    body.  In other words, the Faith God cannot be omnipresent.  The Bible,
>    on the other hand, presents a God who transcends all such limitations. 
>    The 1 true God is everywhere present in all His fullness.

  Fallacy #1:  Because God has a body, He is confined.

  This does NOT take into account God's nature of timelessness and
  omnipotence. It defines God in human terms and not divine; fleshly terms,
  and not spiritual.  That God has a spiritual body does NOT confine him to
  our confines of time and space, and does not conflict with the verses you
  presented.
    

>Ephesians 4:10
>He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that
>he might fill all things.

  I'd be interested in you're interpretation of this Mike.  Are you
  advocating that Jesus is part of all of Creation, that is, God is in
  nature, and perhaps *is* nature and matter itself?  (If not, perhaps this
  is an illustration of how someone can take another's position and distort
  it. But I would like to hear what you have to say about it.)
    
>    Ken Copeland apparently reasoned that a God with a physical body needs
>    a physical habitat.  So he conveniently transforms heaven into a
>    planet.  How he can squeeze God onto a planet is amazing.  Especially
>    since Solomon said that heaven itself cannot contain God.
>
>I Kings 8:27
>But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of
>heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?

  Two things:  We see in Scripture that God appeared to man on numerous
  occasions, and that God also passed by Moses in His glory.  Why the
  difference?  What was the difference?  In other words, just *what* about
  God does God overflow heaven's boundaries?  Oh, and heaven's boundaries? 
  There must be some boundaries (I won't call it a planet) for God to
  overflow, correct? That means a defined place, so where is the conflict?

  What do YOU think heaven is, Mike?  Clouds and harps?  Floating in space?
  Do we sprout wings and halos? (Oops, halos are a different topic, eh?)

>    Faith teachers, like Dake, have arrived at their physical God by
>    erroneously taking verses which figuratively describe God in human
>    terms, and reading them literally.  Thus God is made out to be a spirit
>    being with a body, complete with eyes and eyelids (Psalm 11:4), ears
>    (Psalm 18:6), nostrils (Psalm 18:8), a mouth (Numbers 12:8), hands and
>    fingers (Psalm 8:3-6), and feet (Exodus 24:10).  Yet if these verses
>    were meant to be taken literally, it would also have to be concluded
>    that God has feathers and wings as well (Psalm 1:23, 91:4) - which 
>    is absurd.

  Faith teachers is usally a term for charismatics, am I not mistaken? If
  Dake is charged with being a literalist, we may have something to go on.
  However, 

Fallacy #2

>    Yet if these verses
>    were meant to be taken literally, it would also have to be concluded
>    that God has feathers and wings as well (Psalm 1:23, 91:4) - 
>    which is absurd.

  What is absurd is that so much that SHOULD be taken literally is
  discarded because of SOME figurative language.  Dake says: 

    "It is true there are a few figurative statements about God in
    Scripture, as there are about man and other things, but shall we do
    away with the reality of man and these other things because of a few
    figures of speech? Let is make man mere salt and lights (Matthew
    5:13-14), if we are going to do away with God because of a few figures
    of speech."

  So it really is not a matter of ALL literal or ALL figurative language is
  it? It's knowing which is which, isn't it Mike?  Dake supplies 89 proofs
  with hundreds (HUNDREDS) of Scripture references, compared tothe few you
  float as proof positive of your position.  

>    The simple fact is that such human descriptions were used primarily to
>    help us understand and relate to our Maker.  They were never intended
>    to convey the notion that God possesses physical features like His
>    human creation.  The Creator is, after all, "God, and not man" (Hosea
>    11:9).  Jesus made it clear tha God is spirit (John 4:24), not a spirit
>    being with a body (Deuteronomy 4:12).

    Hosea 11:9  I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not
    return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in
    the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

    John 4:24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him
    in spirit and in truth.

    Deuteronomy 4:12  And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the
    fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye
    heard a voice.

  None of these verses contradicts the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient,
  omnipresent God having a body.  God is a Spirit!  Yes.  Man is a created
  being of flesh.  What is a Spirit, Mike? What is it made of?  What does
  it mean that we will put off mortality and clothe ourselves with
  immortality?  That "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be CHANGED!"  

  You see, you're stuck in PROJECTING the human world into the Spiritual
  realm, not me.  I recognize similarities of spirit and flesh BUT WITH THE
  DIFFERENCES of immortality, incorruptibility, "Changed" from what we
  know, our view through the glass dimly.  

  
  >  Some may try to point to Christ as proof of God having a body. 
  >  However, all such appeals fail on at least 2 counts.  First, the vast
  >  majority of verses cited by Dake & Faith Inc., are from the Old
  >  Testament, during a time before Christ took human form (John 1:14, I
  >  John 4:2, II John 7).  

  Not True of Dake.  A quick scan of 219.7 beginning with point 21 shows
  that Dake provided NT Scriptures.  I just scanned the [rfo]s I supplied
  and MOST (M O S T) of the Scriptures are from the New Testament. You are
  in error, Mike.

>    Second, and most importantly, the Lord Jesus is
>    not only fully God, but fully man.  He is the God-man.  His physical
>    attributes are not due to His deity, but to His humanity (Romans 8:3,
>    Philippians 2:7).

  There is no argument here, or from Dake, for that matter.  But Dake
  supplies many (M A N Y) Scripture references besides "pointing to Christ
  as proof of God having a body."

more to come...

>Note 219.8 FRETZ::HEISER
>     -< I believe in 1 God revealed in 3 Persons >-

So does Dake.  He consistently refers to God singularrly, not the Gods,
not Them, but God and He - check in out in .7.

Howeever, where do you get the notion that God is one in individuality
of person, which is what you are really purporting.  

I think that you think (as I did) that as a human, you can be father, son, 
and uncle in the same person.  And it makes sense so you've adopted this
"Trinity" doctrine.  But when you look at it, it is ONE PERSON, THREE STATES 
OF BEING, and NOT one STATE OF BEING and THREE PERSONS.  Think about it.

If you truly believe that God is Three Persons, but One God, what does
Three Persons mean?  Father, uncle, son, worker, etc?  No!  That is 
one person with segmented states of being!  God is not segmented!
He is the Father, fully God and the head of Christ, the Son, fully God
and subject to the Father, the Holy Spirit, fully God and proceeding
from both the Father and the Son.  Three distinct personages with different
offices yet in PERFECT UNITY of MIND, POWER, AND SPIRIT: One God.

When a couple experiences a one-flesh marriage, do you callthe Bible a 
liar when it says the two shall become one-flesh?  Or do you excuse it
off as a joining of body parts, or nonsensical?  Two individuals, separate
persons join together and transcend the individuality into ONE-FLESH.
And what does Paul say?  "Ephesians 5:31  For this cause shall a man leave 
his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall 
be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the 
church."  Throughout Scripture we find distinct individuals becoming more
than their sum and ONE BEING that is different from their individualities!

Three Persons!  ONE GOD!

.10>

> Title:  there are not 3 Gods, only 1 revealed in 3 Persons

This is what Dake says.

You do not see it because you do not acknowledge the distinction of the
"3 Persons".  And this is highlighted by the use of the word "revealed."

Please explain how God is "revealed in 3 Persons" Mike and back it up 
with Scripture (of course).  Shall I also post all the Scripture references 
in .7?  It would take some time and I couldn't do it until next week (short day
for me today), but I will.

mark

194.42> Placed here (Mike Heiser)

>    Benny Hinn retracted his statement in "Christianity Today" about the
>    9-being trinity.  He also removed it from his first book ("Good
>    Morning, Holy Spirit") in the second printing without a word about why 
>    it was edited out.  However, he has been recorded on TBN since both of 
>    those incidents where he has resurrected his belief in the 9-being trinity. 
>    The man is confused.  He regards Dake as one of his biggest influences
>    too.

The last sentence is a non-sequiter.  David Koresh knew the Bible back and forth
and yet twisted it to his own means.  And others have done so to varying degrees.

>    - Many faith teachers have stated Adam was the first superman.  He could 
>      fly like birds, swim like fish, and transport himself to the moon
>      with a single thought.  They credit Dake with the idea.  ("God's Plan
>      for Man", p. 35;  also Dakes Annotated Bible, Old Testament 1, col. 
>      4 (note on Genesis 1:26), 619, col. 1, note 2).


Dake did not say man could fly:

From Note 194.16-----------------------

  The notes on Genesis 1:26 in Dake's Bible are thus:

Genesis 1:26  And God said(x), Let us make man in our(y) image, after our(z) 
likeness: and let them have (a)dominion over the fish of the sea, and over 
the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over 
every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

x A Divine Trinity is required by the use of plural personal pronoun 
    (many references omitted for brevity)
y Heb. tselem, shade, resemblance.  It's usage proves it refers to outward
     form, not to attribues. (many references omitted)
z Heb. demuwth, resemblance, model shape; and refers to the outward form as
     proven by its usages (many references required)
a Man's dominion included even the sun moon and stars (Ps. 8).  In the final
     restoration man will again have such rulership (1 cor 15:24-28; Eph 1:10;
     Heb. 2:7-9)

Don't confuse Hinn's interpretation of what Dake has said with what Dake 
has said, which I believe you have done (and done a disservice to Dake in
the process).  Dake doesn't make the claim that Adam could fly, as you can
see.  He even makes sure that he emphasizes that man is made in God's image
as a form and not attributes.

---------------------------------------------

>619, col. 1, note 

There is no such information that you assert.  You are SORELY MISTAKEN!
And because of it, your information shows me that you are simply
PREJUDICED without serious study.  You've done enough study to attack
but not to defend!

---------------------------------------------
Further, I noticed that you passed these questions up (or bypassed them 
actually) from 194.16)

As for God going from place to place, what do you do with the scripture
where God appeared to the 70 elders of Israel on Mt. Sanai, and that
God *appeared* many times in the OT to Israel, to Abraham, etc.  

Moses saw him in his form, but not in his glory.  One day, Moses asked to see
God with all of his glorious attributes.  God knew that no man could see it
and live but told moses that he would allow him to see his "hind parts" of
his glory.  His glory was hidden from Moses by the way when God *appeared*
to Moses, and even Moses only got to the see the "hind parts" of God's 
nature and attributes.  (Let's start a note about God's body.)

-------------------------------

Your assertions are plagued with error and are scurilously slanderous.

194.42>  (Mike Heiser)
    
One last thing...

>time to do some real work...

I hope you will put more diligence into your job than you have done with
making a case against Dake.

To summarize, you found .7 to be fairly straightforward (except for
the first paragraph which highlight a difference in the concept *you*
and *he* have of the Trinity), yet even after agreeing you still cast
aspertions (without much substance; they've each been answered with 
what Dake says, instead of what someone says about Dake).  You have a 
prejudice, and if you are not careful it may leak into other areas of
your spirituality.  

And this is much larger than Dake, folks.  One may be able to find 
things that "don't sit well" with them about many a thoelogian,
scholar, historian.  The challenge is NOT sufficient to judge.  And
here is a true application of the verse, "judge not, lest ye be judged"
for if the accusations prove false, then it is not Dake whose words are
not to be trusted BEFORE they are weighed, but Mike's words which will 
be weighed ever so carefully, microinspecting them for perceived 
doctrinal errors.  (And I'm not saying we shouldn't be looking for
heresy - we should! but we should know what heresy is versus conviction,
and preference.)

A friend of mine said recently that he could bash his head against a 
telephone pole, then go to the cops and say that Mark Metcalfe had
beaten him with a baseball bat, illustrating that the mere accusation
is enough to confine me.  After all, the evidence of trauma to the
head would be there, right?  

Mike's not telling the whole story because *he doesn't have the whole story.*
I don't blame him because I don't think he's being sinister about these,
and comes from the [ignorant] idea that he's telling what he believes
to be the truth.  But it isn't.  Certainly not when Dake's own words are
transcribed in response to what someone else has to say about Dake's words.

You're not comfortable with a couple of things?  Fine!  Let's explore them,
instead of dismissing them.  Leave the false accusations out of it.

MM

Mike,
  I apologize for the "work" jab.  And the title from .14 has been removed
since it was perecived by one that I had taken glee in showing you that
I think you are wrong.  Nothing is farther from the truth.
  I've taken this matter seriously, not because of what you think of
as the Trinity versus what I think vs, Dake, vs. everyone else.  But
I have taken exception to the stance you have, which seems to be based 
not on what Dake says, but how others have INTERPRETED what Dake has
said.
  John Covert came into my office last night and said he read .7.  He also
said "he wasn't comfortable" with the idea that God had a body.  I said,
"Fine with me.  'Not comfortable' indicates discomfort but  willingness to
see what possibilities exist."  Does God have a form or substance?  I said
that if we are made in his image, does that mean we are scale models?
The point being that there is still room for so much unaswerables that the
charge of "heresy" is WAY TOO STRONG and just as far off the deep end as
you have accused Dake of being in the other direction.  Is this balance?
  During the OSAS and FFG debates, I argued that the Prodigal son was "dead"
to his father and the branch is "cut off from" the vine.  Clear Scriptural
reference that support my doctrine and it would be easy of me to conclude
that those who hold strictly to the OSAS position in isloation are also heretics
leading people to their destruction those who are spearated from God thinking
they have been saed at one point.  To be sure, some probably do hold these
people as heretics.  I do not.  I don't think you can take OSAS in isolation,
nor can you throw out all of their supporting references.  The same can be
said of what you have done to Dake, which can be done of Calvin, Wesley,
Luther, even the Apostle Paul!  We don't have the full grasp on things, 
do we?  So why the charge of heresy, when everything Dake has presented
is Scriptural?; as Scriptural as OSAS and FFG, predestination and free will.
  Anyway, I admit that this has me stymied.  I still think you are very
wrong to make these accusations, and that the sources from which you have
taken these accusations are misrepresentations of Dake's words.  This isn't
new and shouldn't be a surprize that people do this.
  I'm sorry for the sarcasm.

Mark

>instead of dismissing them.  Leave the false accusations out of it.
    
    ...but it's okay to accuse a brother of being "wrong" in an argument
    over semantics?  Frankly, I have no desire to pursue this any further
    and feel it will do more harm than good as well as take up too much
    time.  It's obvious neither of us is going to give any ground.

>a Man's dominion included even the sun moon and stars (Ps. 8).  In the final
>     restoration man will again have such rulership (1 cor 15:24-28; Eph 1:10;
>     Heb. 2:7-9)
    
    fwiw, this is the key to Hinn's statement of Adam transporting himself
    to the celestial bodies.  Since he is Jewish, he assumes he's an expert
    on Hebrew.  He claims the Hebrew word for "dominion" in this case means
    that man can't rule over something unless he can do what that object
    can do or conquer it.  Hence, Adam could fly, swim, etc.  I'm curious
    as to what Dake meant by dominion in this case.

.18> I'm curious as to what Dake meant by dominion in this case.

I'll try and find out for you.  Would it mean that you might "give ground"
or is this another rhetorical and prejudiced remark?

>a Man's dominion included even the sun moon and stars (Ps. 8).  In the final
>     restoration man will again have such rulership (1 cor 15:24-28; Eph 1:10;
>     Heb. 2:7-9)

>  I'm curious
>   as to what Dake meant by dominion in this case.


DARB - Dake - _Man's Dominion_  (p. 619 col 3 referencing Pslam 8:6)

This passage places man at the head of all God's works - the heavens, 
including the sun, moon, and starts (v.3), and the earth, including all
living things (v 7-8).  It makes him next to god in position and power
over all creations.  Thus Adam was orginally made higher than the angels,
but by sin he was brought very low and made subject to death.  Now, man
in his lessened estate (short of God's glory Romans 3:23), is made lower 
for a time to take man's low place and to raise him again higher than the 
angels, as he originally was.  Christ has been exalted to a place higher 
than angels or any other being except the Father (Ephesians 1:21-23,
Philippians 2:9-11; 1 Peter 3:22).  Redeemed man is to be raised up to that 
exalted position with Him (Romans 8:17-18; Ephesians 2:6-7; 3:8-11; 
2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 2:5-11; Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 22:4-6).

--------------------------
That Hinn took this and conjectured that Adam could fly or swim without
need of oxygen (implied) is a wild assumption on Hinn's part, as it is a
wild assumption on your part that this is what Dake meant when he wrote 
the above.
--------------------------

Here are the Scripture references about Man's Dominion:

Psalms 8:1  O LORD, our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!
who hast set thy glory above the heavens.
  2  Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength
because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger.
  3  When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the
stars, which thou hast ordained;
  4  What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou
visitest him?
  5  For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned
him with glory and honour.
  6  Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast
put all things under his feet:
  7  All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
  8  The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth
through the paths of the seas.
  9  O LORD our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth!

1Corinthians 15:24  Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the
kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all
authority and power.
 25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
 26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
 27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things
are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all
things under him.
 28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also
himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all
in all.

Ephesians 1:10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and
which are on earth; even in him:

Hebrews 2:7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst
him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
  8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he
put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.
But now we see not yet all things put under him.
  9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the
suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God
should taste death for every man.

>  Redeemed man is to be raised up to that 
>exalted position with Him (Romans 8:17-18; Ephesians 2:6-7; 3:8-11; 
>2 Timothy 2:12; Hebrews 2:5-11; Revelation 1:6; 5:10; 22:4-6).

Romans 8:17  And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with
Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified
together.
 18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to
be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus:
  7  That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace
in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 3:8  Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this
grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches
of Christ;
  9  And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which
from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things
by Jesus Christ:
 10  To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly
places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
 11  According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our
Lord:

Hebrews 2:5  For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to
come, whereof we speak.
  6  But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art
mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
  7  Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with
glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
  8  Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he
put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.
But now we see not yet all things put under him.
  9  But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the
suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God
should taste death for every man.
 10  For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,
in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation
perfect through sufferings.
 11  For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one:
for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

2Timothy 2:12  If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he
also will deny us:

Revelation 1:6  And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father;
to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we
shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 22:4  And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their
foreheads.
  5  And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither
light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for
ever and ever.
  6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord
God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things
which must shortly be done.

I believe in One God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth,
and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begoten,
begoten of the Father before all worlds. Light of Light, very God
of very God, begotten, not made, consusbstantial with the Father,
and by Whom all things are made.

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was
incarnate of the Holy Ghost, and of the virgin Mary, and was made man.

And was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried.

And rose again the third day according to the Scripture.

And ascended into heaven, and siteth on the right hand of the Father.

And He shall come again with glory to judge the quick and the dead,
Whose kingdom shall have no end.'

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth
from the Father, Who with Father and the Son together is worshipped
and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets.

In one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

I look for the resurrection of the dead.

And the life in the world to come.

Amen

>The Orthodox Creed

Which differs in only one place from the creed of the Western Church:

For the Orthodox:

>And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth
>from the Father, Who with Father and the Son together is worshipped
>and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets.

For the Western Church:

And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceedeth
from the Father and the Son, Who with Father and the Son together is worshipped
and glorified, Who spake by the Prophets.

The "and the Son" (filioque) was added some time in the 5th or 6th Century to
counter a heresy which was arising in Spain and became a point of argument
between Rome and Constantinople, and remains so to this day.

/john

    Since the subject of the trinity can be complicated for an expert, let
    alone me, I've summoned the help of some who I consider much more
    knowledgeable.  I made of list of Dake's passages entered by Mark and
    hit the tape library at church where some of the best expository
    teachers around are on tape.

    re .23
    
    "Filio que" -- yes indeed. But when you say "Western Church", what
    do you mean in the modern context (I realize thate an all inclusive 
    answer is impossible)? Also, what is the origin of the terser (and
    somewhat different) creed used by the Catholic Church?
    
    Alex

>   When you say "Western Church", what do you mean in the modern context?

I mean those Churches in the tradition of the West, which generally use
the Filioque in the Nicene Creed, as opposed to those Churches in the
tradition of the East, which generally do not.  The East/West schism is
that of 1054.

>Also, what is the origin of the terser (and somewhat different) creed used
>by the Catholic Church?

Many Christian Churches also use the shorter "Apostles' Creed" which has its
origin in the oral tradition of the Apostles.  The Apostles' Creed was not
considered adequate to counter the heresies concerning the nature of Christ
which arose in the latter third and early fourth centuries, and thus was
enhanced with the longer Nicene Creed (325 A.D.).

/john

	I believe in God, the Father almighty,
	   maker of heaven and earth.

	I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son our Lord;
	   who was conceived by the Holy Ghost,
	   born of the Virgin Mary,
	   suffered under Pontius Pilate,
	   was crucified, dead, and buried.
	   He descended into hell.
	   The third day he rose again from the dead.
	   He ascended into heaven,
	   and sitteth on the right hand
	     of God the Father Almighty.
	   From thence he shall come to judge
	     both the quick and the dead.

	I believe in the Holy Ghost,
	   the holy catholic Church,
	   the communion of saints,
	   the forgiveness of sins,
	   the resurrection of the body,
	   + and the life everlasting.  Amen.

    re .26, 27:
    
> ... to counter the heresies concerning the nature of Christ ...
> was enhanced with the longer Nicene Creed (325 A.D.). ...
    
    This is right at the root of my prior question. Why did some churches
    revert to an earlier creed?
    
    I understand that some (most protestant?) churches do not recognize 
    the "Universal Congresses" (is this the right term?), while most Eastern 
    Byzantine rite churches recognize pre-schism congresses (6 or 7 of them),
    while Catholic Church recognizes them all. Did any of the post-schism
    congresses revert to the Apostolic Creed?
    
    Alex

>    This is right at the root of my prior question. Why did some churches
>    revert to an earlier creed?

Did any revert?  Are there any Churches which don't use the Nicene Creed but
do use the Apostles' Creed?
    
>    I understand that some (most protestant?) churches do not recognize 
>    the "Universal Congresses" (is this the right term?)

The right term is Ecumenical Councils.  The first four are considered to be
authoritative by most Christians, since everything decided at them can be
fairly easily proven by Scripture.

/john

>The right term is Ecumenical Councils.  The first four are considered to be
>authoritative by most Christians, since everything decided at them can be
>fairly easily proven by Scripture.
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Always works for me!
  %^D

John 10:30-33
I and my Father are one.

Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for
which of those works do ye stone me?

The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for
blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    "An interesting and strengthening implication arises when the Greek
    wording is studied.  From A.T. Robertson we find:
    
     'One (hen).  Neuter, no masculine (heis).  Not one person (cf. heis in
    Galatians 3:28), but one essence or nature.'"
    
    {taken from "Evidence that Demands a Verdict", Josh McDowell, p.92}
    
    The Greek clearly states, according to this source, that Jesus and God
    are ONE in essence or nature.  They do not have separate physical
    bodies.
    
    I'm beginning to wonder if the appearances by God in the OT entered by
    Markem could be classified as Christophenes(sp? appearances by Jesus in
    the OT).
    
    Mike

    
>    The Greek clearly states, according to this source, that Jesus and God
>    are ONE in essence or nature.  They do not have separate physical
>    bodies.

The two sentences are non-sequiters.

Jesus and God can be ONE in essence and nature, as Dake agrees, because 
the Son was begotten of the Father, yet still having separate physical
bodies.  This should be no surprise because in the nature world,
animals according to the "kind" are in essense and nature the same.
That is to say, because of DNA, people have babies, bears have bear cubs,
and amoebae split into amoebae.

A.T. Robertson and Dake are not in disagreement in what you have transcribed
of Robertson's text.  What is in disagreement is that you think it supports
your notion that the Godhead does not exist in three separate Persons as
one God.

>    I'm beginning to wonder if the appearances by God in the OT entered by
>    Markem could be classified as Christophenes(sp? appearances by Jesus in
>    the OT).

Maybe.  And a point to be explored, but it would have to conclusively negate
the hundreds of proof texts Dake provides.

Mark

To Whom did Jesus pray when He went off to pray alone?

I can understand praying as a demonstration to his disciples and onlookers,
though it would be a weak explanation, for he said "i and the Father are One,"
yet we are told to pray to the Father.  Why the distinction?

Philippians 2
  6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with
God:
  7  But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a
servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Why would the Father not think it robbery to be equal with himself?
But this passage is speaking about Jesus.  In verse 9 God exalts Jesus.
Has God the Father simply given himself another label?

Jesus, existing and "subsisting in the form of God (by which from
eterntiny he had appeared to the inhabitants of heaven), yet not thinking 
that this equality with God should be clung to or retained, He emptied 
himself of it, so as to assume the form of a servant and become like man."

This is essence and nature.

    First of all, no matter how hard we try, we'll never completely
    understand the concept of the Godhead.  The finite man can't comprehend
    the infinite God.
    
    However, some things are just plain obvious.  Even according to Paul, Dake 
    is wrong.  Jesus is the physical manifestation of the Godhead.
    
Colossians 1:15-16,2:9
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth,
visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

    The first chapter of Hebrews also gives Jesus Christ the credit for
    creation and states he is the express image of God.
    
Hebrews 1:1-3
GOD, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the
fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir
of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and
upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged
our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Then we have the infamous verse where Jesus Christ declares he is YHWH. 
    "God" is just a title.  His name is YHWH and Jesus declares he has the
    same name.  The Jews very well understood this as evidenced by their
    reaction (they wanted to stone him for blasphemy).  Two chapters later
    they want to stone Him again for claiming He and the Father are one. 
    
John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    BTW - I thought Pastor Chuck Smith said it best when he said we have
    the math wrong on the trinity.  It's not 1 + 1 + 1 but rather 1 x 1 x 1.

First of all, Mike, you say that no one can understand completely the mystery
of the Godhead, then go on to say that Dake is wrong (and your conceptualization
of the Godhead is correct).  Don't you see a little incongruity there?

What you are guilty of is taking pieces of Scripture to the exclusion of
other pieces of Scripture, rather than looking at the whole of the evidence.
The pieces you have taken support your concept nicely and these other
Scriptures are perhaps "problematic."

But in fact, everything you have present does not negate anything Dake has 
said about the Trinity.  the only thing wrong with the Scriptures you quote
is your forced interpretation of them.

Your continued hammering of Dake in the face of thw whole evidence demonstrates
a prejudice and unwillingness to deal with the "problematic" verses that
don't fit into your view.

BTW - I agree with Chuck Smith about 1 x 1 x 1, and so does Dake for that
matter.  Three distinct persons, all One God, just as in the equation you
have three distinct numbers whose product is 1.

>    Then we have the infamous verse where Jesus Christ declares he is YHWH. 
>    "God" is just a title.  His name is YHWH and Jesus declares he has the
>    same name.  The Jews very well understood this as evidenced by their
>    reaction (they wanted to stone him for blasphemy).  Two chapters later
>    they want to stone Him again for claiming He and the Father are one. 
>    
>John 8:58
>Jesus said unto them, Verily verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

And here is what Dake says about it:

"This [I AM] is one of the eternal names of God, proving that he existed before
Abraham (Exodus 3:14-15; Micah 5:1-2; John 1:1-2; See note 8:24).  The Jews
understood that he applied this name to Himself, thus declaring His deity."

So, really, Mike, by your own admission about not completely understanding
the concept of the Godhead, you leave little room for interpretation, and 
further force a definition on a man (Dake) who has made no assertion that
you claim he has.  

I have never understood your beef, except that you *think* Dake has said 
something that is against something you *think* but are not completely sure 
about.  And every evidence (to date) that you present has not shown an 
incongruity with Dake's view of the Trinity.

I advise you to keep your accusations about other people to yourself and 
deal with the issue and perceptions instead.  It is certain that people
are not perfect, and Dake might come up short in some people's estimation.
So what.  I can argue the doctrine of the Trinity with you for a long
time, enjoying it, disagreeing with your notions because I think they 
are imperfect and short-sighted, (and you can do the same), but I can 
do without character assassinations.  I hope that you will, too.

Mark

    Okay, I'll agree to leave Dake out of this until I have the proof
    assembled.
    
>of the Godhead is correct).  Don't you see a little incongruity there?
    
    No not really.  We'll never know 100% (while on earth), but what we do 
    know can be derived from Scripture.  Tritheism is not scriptural.
    
>The pieces you have taken support your concept nicely and these other
>Scriptures are perhaps "problematic."
    
    It looks like that now, but I'm getting to the rest that were posted. 
    Hang tight...
    
>BTW - I agree with Chuck Smith about 1 x 1 x 1, and so does Dake for that
>matter.  Three distinct persons, all One God, just as in the equation you
>have three distinct numbers whose product is 1.
    
    No Dake and Pastor Chuck do not agree.  The product of 1 x 1 is always
    1.  We believe in 1 God manisfested in 3 persons, not 3 separate persons 
    and 3 gods.  There's a difference. 
    
>Your continued hammering of Dake in the face of thw whole evidence demonstrates
>a prejudice and unwillingness to deal with the "problematic" verses that
>don't fit into your view.
    
    The same could be said of your view.  I've posted verses that you also must
    find "problematic" because you've ignored them.  
    
>further force a definition on a man (Dake) who has made no assertion that
>you claim he has.  
>
>I have never understood your beef, except that you *think* Dake has said 
>something that is against something you *think* but are not completely sure 
>about.  And every evidence (to date) that you present has not shown an 
    
    Sorry, I'm not alone in this, and the problem is not what I think, it's
    what you think.  I know Dake subscribes to tritheism.  Most of my 
    information comes from highly respected authors from CRI and within the 
    Calvary Chapel organization, as well as "God's Plan for Man."

>    No not really.  We'll never know 100% (while on earth), but what we do 
>    know can be derived from Scripture.  Tritheism is not scriptural.

I have not presented Tri-tehism, nor has Dake.  Do you know what Tri-theism
suggests?  Three Gods.  Dake does not say this; I do not say this.

I say Three Persons: One God.  not three gods.  We don't say "the Gods"
and "they"; we say God, and He.  (But the Iraelites did: Elohim, fwiw).

>    No Dake and Pastor Chuck do not agree.  The product of 1 x 1 is always
>    1.  We believe in 1 God manisfested in 3 persons, not 3 separate persons 
>    and 3 gods.  There's a difference. 

Not three separate persons and three Gods.  Three separate persons and
ONE GOD. 

Explain your "difference" of one God manifested in three persons.  
This sounds like Hindu theology, "for God has manifested himself in 
many forms (because he can do what he likes)."  And why is God then
Three in One when he has appears in a burning bush (why not 4 in one),
plus other "manifestations." 

You have ignored Dake's proof texts.  Why?

>    The same could be said of your view.  I've posted verses that you also must
>    find "problematic" because you've ignored them.  

I have not.  I have explained the most difficult of them and shown how they
are not incongruent with the orthodox trinity view.

>    I know Dake subscribes to tritheism.  Most of my 
>    information comes from highly respected authors from CRI and within the 
>    Calvary Chapel organization, as well as "God's Plan for Man."

I doubt very highly that you *know* anything of the sort.  And so much for 
"leaving Dake out of this until" you have proof assembled.

Mark

    ... seems kinda quiet around here, don't it?  sorry I can't stay ...
    but not too sorry :-)
    
    -m.

For those of you who don't know, that was Mark Sornson, our periodic 
"guest" Jehovah's Witness, who do not believe in a Holy Trinity.

But this is not an argument as to whether there is or isn't (thanks, Mark),
but as to God's nature in the Trinity.  The JW view is contrary to this
discussion and the conference premise.  But it is nice to know you are still 
alive and kicking beyond the "hellos" in the hallways and cafeteria.

Mark (M)

    re .40 (by SUOSWS::WILLOUGHBY)/Frank
    
>    Are you saying that because Mark Sornson is a Jehovah's Witness and that 
>    his opinion is contrary to this discussion or the conference premise that 
>    you are forbidding him to express his opinion?  I personally don't think 
>    it is right to discriminate on the basis of religion (or anything else 
>    for that matter - "Judge not lest ye be judged").
    
    	Thanks for sticking up for me, but before things get out of hand, I
    ought to interject that my note was just a quick poke in fun, which I
    hoped would be appreciated (maybe) by the few 'old timers' that are
    still here.
    
    	I've been trading notes in version of CHRISTIAN since the beginning
    of time [5 years ago?, when CHRISTIAN first started], thus there's a
    lot of history between myself and a few noters (like Mark Metcalfe). 
    Needless to say, we've had trinity discussions before.  They weren't
    always well received, but we've had them.  (Also, as I hoped you could
    tell, I wasn't planning to stay and have another one ... at least, not
    at the moment.)
    
    	Anyway, since I've heard rumors that the plug may be pulled on
    employee notes conferences, I don't see much point in starting a new
    thread on Witness views about the trinity, only to see it die a sudden
    death just when things start to get interesting.  [But again, this is
    just a rumor.]
    
>    I am not a Jehovah's Witness.  But I think that an exchange of opinions 
>    is healthy and fosters a level of mutual understanding and respect.
    
    	You are more than welcome to send me e-mail.
    
    
    							regards,
    							-mark.

    As one of those old-timers that -mark is referring to...
    
    and since we've exchanged and mail and phone conversations..
    
    I can attest to the fact that in fact he's a piece of work! :-)
    
    Write offline as he's requested, since he doesn't wish to respond in
    here, it will be a trip... if you are interested in previous 600 note
    exchanges regarding this topic check out ATLANTA::CHRISTIAN_V6.
    
    Nancy

219.39 Me

    >But this is not an argument as to whether there is or isn't (thanks, Mark),
    >but as to God's nature in the Trinity.  The JW view is contrary to this
    >discussion and the conference premise.  But it is nice to know you are
    >still alive and kicking beyond the "hellos" in the hallways and cafeteria.

219.40 Frank Willoughby

>    Are you saying that because Mark Sornson is a Jehovah's Witness and that
>    his opinion is contrary to this discussion or the conference premise that
>    you are forbidding him to express his opinion? 

Not at all.  As Mark S points out in .42, we've had discussions about 
Witness views of the Trinity; this was a request to narrow this line of 
conversation to those who believe in the Divine Trinity of the Father,
the Son, and the Holy Spirit, rather than rathole this topic onto whether
or not there is a Divine Trinity.  (I thought my language was clear 
enough but apparently not.)

219.41 Paul Weiss

>Hi Frank.  I don't recognize your name.  Are you (relatively) new here?  Welcome

Actually Paul, you've missed Frank because your participation wasn't regular
until recently.  Frank's notable effort in this conference came in defense
of Mormonism (Church of the Latter Day Saints (LDS), 90% of which was spent on
arguing whether or not we could discuss Mormonism in the Christian notes
conference instead of taking it to the Mormonism notes conference.  That was
back when I was moderating and the upshot was that we'll discuss any religion
where we want.  You can see it in the previous version of the conference.

219.42 Mark Sornson        

>    Thanks for sticking up for me, but before things get out of hand, I
>    ought to interject that my note was just a quick poke in fun, which I
>    hoped would be appreciated (maybe) by the few 'old timers' that are
>    still here.
>
>        I've been trading notes in version of CHRISTIAN since the beginning
>    of time [5 years ago?, when CHRISTIAN first started], thus there's a
>    lot of history between myself and a few noters (like Mark Metcalfe).
>    Needless to say, we've had trinity discussions before.

Right-o. Hence my request in .39 to keep the discussion to the Trinitarians
among us.  In other words, "please don't rathole this discussion." Perhaps
this more clearly states it.

Mark M

 Notes on the discussion of tolerance have been moved to their own
 topic..254.






 Jim co-mod

For Mike:

                      ARTICLE I:    THE TRIUNE GOD

   We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign of
   the Universe; that he only is God, creative and administrative,
   holy in nature, attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Triune 
   in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

But you will need these, too:

                      ARTICLE II: JESUS CHRIST

   We believe in Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Triune God-
   head; that he was eternally one with the Father; that he became
   incarnate by the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary, so
   that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say the Godhead
   and manhood, are thus united in one person very God and very man,
   the God-man.

   We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and that He truly
   arose from the dead and took again his body, together with all
   things appertaining to the perfection of man's nature, wherewith
   He ascended into heaven and is there engaged in intercession for
   us.

                    ARTICLE III: THE HOLY SPIRIT

   We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune God-
   head, that he is ever present and efficiently active in and with
   the Church of Christ, convincing the world of sin, regenerating
   those who repent and believe, sanctifying believers, and guid-
   ing into all truth as it is in Jesus.

References are given inthe manul where these statements are found, but have
been ommitted for brevity.

My doctrinal understanding of the Trinity (from the text I prepared for a class
some time ago):

-----------------
6.3  God is Triune

The One God exists as three distinct persons but are completely one
in unity and purpose. When you list the attributes of God, they ap-
ply to God the Holy Spirit as well as God the Father as well as God
the Son.

If they are three distinct persons, aren't they three Gods? No. They
are one; He makes up a single source of love, a single purpose, a sin-
gle unified power. Although He is singular in unity, each person of
the Godhead performs the different functions of their office. God is
three persons; God is one in unity and purpose.

Beyond that, you'll have to study theology under greater minds than
mine.
----------------

    Re: 219.50
    
    Gee, where's that in the Bible? ;^) ;^)
    
    j

.51 J

The same place all of our formed (forming) opinions may be found.

;-)

>                      ARTICLE I:    THE TRIUNE GOD
>   We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign of
>   the Universe; that he only is God, creative and administrative,
>   holy in nature, attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Triune 
>   in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    
    Mark, maybe it's the way I'm reading this, but I 100% agree with
    Article I, and with what you wrote below.  I agree that God is 1 God, who 
    can manifest or reveal Himself in 3 ways.  I agree that each manifestation 
    is a different person, yet still God.  
    
    However, I do not agree that each manifestation is triune unto itself
    to yield a 9-being Trinity (each one having a physical, spiritual, etc.
    dimension).

>My doctrinal understanding of the Trinity (from the text I prepared for a class
>some time ago):
>6.3  God is Triune
>The One God exists as three distinct persons but are completely one
>in unity and purpose. When you list the attributes of God, they ap-
>ply to God the Holy Spirit as well as God the Father as well as God
>the Son.

>    However, I do not agree that each manifestation is triune unto itself
>    to yield a 9-being Trinity (each one having a physical, spiritual, etc.
>    dimension).

Let's see if I can put it this way:

Are we one being or three beings, Mike?  I'd say we are one being and NOT
three, yet I believe that you and I each have a body, soul, and spirit.
By having a body, soul, and spirit, has this made you and I six beings
together (two three-being persons?).

No.  We are one person - and NOT Triune, by the way.   We do not exist
as three distinct persons, nor as three pieces of one person.  We are one 
person; body, soul, and spirit.

Now, if our personages can have body, soul, and spirit, yet be one person, 
how is it that God cannot?

The idea of a 9-being Trinity is not equated (in my mind) as God having
an [eternal, immortal, holy, omnipotent, etc.] body, soul, and spirit.
(And further, Dake certainly never supported such a notion, whether or not
someone miscontrued anything he may have said about the body, soul, and spirit
of God.)

You know, when we die, and our spirit is separated from our bodies, that's
not the end of it.  The Bible says that our spirits will be reunited with
new incorruptible bodies (for eternal life or eternal death).  We're not
going to be floating Caspers, the Friendly Ghosts.  I don't know what
it all means beyond "to be absent from the body is to be with Christ", but
I don't consider that I will be a "separate" being as much as I will be
a being awaiting the new completion of the new person.  

I think we've dissected the "body, soul, and spirit" to the level that we 
miss seeing the whole as one person and misunderstand the components.
It might be like looking at the components of salt NaCl on the molecular
component level and determine that both Sodium and Cloride are poison,
forgetting that together, they are seasoning and not poison (in reasonable
quanities); and together, they are not Sodium and Cloride, but Sodium Cloride -
table salt.  Together, we are not body and soul and spirit, but body, soul,
and spirit - one person.  And I hope we are the "Salt of the earth," to boot.

Mark

>Now, if our personages can have body, soul, and spirit, yet be one person, 
>how is it that God cannot?
    
    but does it agree with your Article of Faith?  No.  Tritheism won't be
    seen in the Articles of Faith for any orthodox Christian denomination
    because it is heresy.
    
    Mike

>>Now, if our personages can have body, soul, and spirit, yet be one person, 
>>how is it that God cannot?
>    
>    but does it agree with your Article of Faith?  No.  Tritheism won't be
>    seen in the Articles of Faith for any orthodox Christian denomination
>    because it is heresy.

There you go again!  Do you know what tritheism means, Mike?
It means THREE Gods, not ONE God.  Show me WHERE I have said Three Gods.
Not one place!

I have not said it.  Dake has not said it.  

It you who have misunderstood it.

BTW, why have you avoided the question?  Does our person have body, soul,
and spirit?  And do we make up three or one person?

Mark

Mike, please re-read .54 carefully and humor me with your answers to the 
questions I posed.

Secondly, you're having trouble with this three-Person/One God concept,
and I think it is because you have not taken into account that God is
God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) of ONE ESSENCE.  As I have said
before (and not my own words but words I have accepted), "When you list 
the attributes of God, they apply to God the Holy Spirit as well as 
God the Father as well as God the Son."  And it's NOT even the idea
of identical triplets - but ONE ESSENCE expressed in Three Distinct,
and CO-EXISTENT persons.

You want to think of these Persons of the Godhead as separate beings,
and accuse me (and others) falsely of Tritheism and heresy (note .55).
The mystery of God in the trinity is how One Essence (one being) is 
expressed in three distinct Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit)
while being co-existent.  The glimpse of this is found in Scripture
where the Son is begotten of the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds
from both the Father and the Son.  Same essence, distinct Persons (not
changed or altered manifestations of the same person), co-existent,
and ONE GOD.

Mark

(Further, your language is worse than inflammatory and lacks a lot of 
tact in the very least.  You have libelled me and others, and though I
don't expect one, I deserve an apology from you on all these accounts.
That you have not understood what I have maintained shows to me that you
are looking to expose what is not there.)

    Can someone explain to me TRITHEISM and in what religions it does
    exist?
    
    Nancy

Definitions from American Heritage and Websters (read carefully):

----------------------------------------------------------
Tritheism:

AH: The belief that the Father, Son, and Holy ghost are three 
separate and distinct gods.

W:  the doctrine that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct
Gods.

----------------------------------------------------------
Check out and contrast reference: Trinity

W: 1: the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in 
      one Godhead according to Christian dogma

AH: 2: the union of of three divine figures, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost,
      in one Godhead.
----------------------------------------------------------

It's not too difficult to see where one may confuse the two definitions
(as I believe Mike has), and as have other religious organization that 
accuse "trinitarians" of Tritheism.

.8>    He's implying that each member of the trinity has His own distinct
.8>    spirit-bodies and that they are 3 separate and distinct beings (i.e., 3
.8>    Gods).

This is Mike's key misnderstanding where he equates 3 beings with 3 Gods.
He seems to be bound to his human point of reference in thinking that
three Persons must be three Gods, which dismisses the idea of one essence
in the three persons, dismisses the idea of perfect unity in purpose and mind,
dismisses the perfect union of the three persons, and reduces God to a
quick-change artist, changing from Father, to Son, to Holy Ghost, to Father
depending on station.  This is contrary notion to the Trinity - that God
changes his office depending on the activity to be performed.  Trinity theology
says that the three Persons of the Trinity co-exist and are of the same
singular essence that is One God.

.8    Since God, according to these Faith types, has a body, His presence
.8    would be confined to an area occupied by His body.  And since God's
.8    body supposedly has definite physical dimensions, it would mean God
.8    cannot truly be at those places which are not currently occupied by His
.8    body.  In other words, the Faith God cannot be omnipresent.  The Bible,
.8    on the other hand, presents a God who transcends all such limitations. 
.8    The 1 true God is everywhere present in all His fullness.

This is another fallacy.  It dismisses God's omnipotence and binds him to
time and space.  Having a house for soul and spirit in no way limits God
to be in one place only at one time.

.8    Ken Copeland apparently reasoned that a God with a physical body needs
.8    a physical habitat.  So he conveniently transforms heaven into a
.8    planet.  How he can squeeze God onto a planet is amazing.  Especially
.8    since Solomon said that heaven itself cannot contain God.
    
I don't know who Ken Copeland is, but Mike makes an assumption of his own
here.  (1) That heaven cannot be a planet based presumably on Mike's
assumption of what heaven actually is (which isn't described).  I'm not
saying that heaven is a planet, as some have surmized, but neither can
it be deduced that it isn't from Solomon's observation.

.8    Faith teachers, like Dake, have arrived at their physical God by
.8    erroneously taking verses which figuratively describe God in human
.8    terms, and reading them literally. 

Another fallacy and presupposes that the text was meant to be taken figratively
instead of literally.  It further dismisses any verses that cannot be taken
figuratively - contrary to good scholarship.

.8    The simple fact is that such human descriptions were used primarily to
.8    help us understand and relate to our Maker.  They were never intended
.8    to convey the notion that God possesses physical features like His
.8    human creation. 

This is curious, because what does it mean to relate to our Creator only to
find out upon entrance to heaven that we had a false point of reference all
along?  It is a further distortion to conclude that "made in the image of God"
is saying that God is like His creation, as opposed to the other way around.
If I painted a self-protrait, it would appropriate to say the likeness
looks like me, and inappropriate to say I look like it. It is a broad assumption
to say "they were never intended to convey..."; an assumption I disagree with.

.8    Some may try to point to Christ as proof of God having a body. 
.8    However, all such appeals fail on at least 2 counts.  First, the vast
.8    majority of verses cited by Dake & Faith Inc., are from the Old
.8    Testament, during a time before Christ took human form (John 1:14, I
.8    John 4:2, II John 7).

.11  Not True of Dake.  A quick scan of 219.7 beginning with point 21 shows
.11  that Dake provided NT Scriptures.  I just scanned the [rfo]s I supplied
.11  and MOST (M O S T) of the Scriptures are from the New Testament. You are
.11  in error, Mike.

Mark

Mike, I believe this is ratholing on words, leading to confusion here,
while really being in fundamental agreement.

From Mark Metcalfe, in 219.49
� >   We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign of
� >   the Universe; that he only is God, creative and administrative,
� >   holy in nature, attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Triune 
� >   in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
     
� Mike Heiser Note 219.53 
�     Mark, maybe it's the way I'm reading this, but I 100% agree with
�     Article I, and with what you wrote below.  I agree that God is 1 God, 
�     who can manifest or reveal Himself in 3 ways.  I agree that each 
�     manifestation is a different person, yet still God.  

I do not believe that anyone is trying to rationalise a theory of each part 
consisting of three parts, to make God manifest as 9 beings, as Mike 
expressed in .53:

�    However, I do not agree that each manifestation is triune unto itself
�    to yield a 9-being Trinity (each one having a physical, spiritual, etc.
�    dimension).

It appears to me that this is a misinterpretation of terms of reference 
being used at the fringes of man's comprehension.  God goes far beyond, 
into the limits of eternity, including being manifest as man (the LORD
Jesus), and spirit (the Holy Spirit).  These 3 ways are the only ways He is
revealed to man, and they are more than we can encompass, and sufficient 
for our every need.  The danger is in trying to pin God down and define 
Him.  Deuteronomy 4:12 :
  "Then the LORD spoke to you out of the fire.  You heard the sound of 
   words, but saw no form; there was only a voice." 

The only controversy I see in the preceding replies, concerns which side
of the fence Dake is on - whether he would accept the above description of 
the Trinity, or whether he has some idea of each of the three consisting of 
all three physical representations. This is quoted by Mike, in .8, from "E.
Calvin Beisner's "God in Three Persons" (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House
Publishers, 1984); and Edward H. Bickersteth, "The Trinity" (Grand Rapids,
MI: Kregel, 1976).".

Mike, you admitted to only glancing through these, before deriving the
following from the first paragraph : 

�    He's implying that each member of the trinity has His own distinct
�    spirit-bodies and that they are 3 separate and distinct beings (i.e., 3
�    Gods).  Tritheism runs contrary to all of Scripture, which teaches 1
�    God revealed in 3 Persons.

I do not know Dake's association with these sources, but the idea of coming 
to insults over the stance of a second source strikes me as an example of 2 
Timothy 2:14 :
  "Keep reminding them of these things.  Warn them before God against 
  quarrelling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who 
  listen."

If the discussion is about Dake's position, I would expect more evidence,
and less accusation.  Especially between those whose personal stance is the
same.  Also respecting the fact that he has been used to give much of 
value.  Most teachers I know,I would have reservations on some areas of 
their teaching.  That does not negate their value in areas of profit.  It 
underlines that we are individually answerable to God, and should be 
Bereans, as per Acts 17:11.

May I remind you that the 'adversity' of Proverbs 17:17 implies 'support 
during', NOT 'the adversary in', though it may seem otherwise at certain 
stages of childish development...

 					God bless
 							Andrew

>all three physical representations. This is quoted by Mike, in .8, from "E.
>Calvin Beisner's "God in Three Persons" (Wheaton, IL: Tyndale House
>Publishers, 1984); and Edward H. Bickersteth, "The Trinity" (Grand Rapids,
>MI: Kregel, 1976).".
    
    fwiw, Dake also receives the same critical review in "Christianity in
    Crisis" by Hank Hannegraff (current president of CRI).  Hank does this
    when explaining the ties between Dake and some of the modern day
    faith-healers.
    
    Mike

>                                   -< fwiw >-
>    fwiw, Dake also receives the same critical review in "Christianity in 
     ^^^^

I think we have established what it is worth, Mike:  Zippo.
It has been shown to be inaccurate at best, and libelous at worst.
Take your choice.

    We?!  

>    We?!  

Add Dake's own words in defense of his critics (which show them to inaccurately
portray Dake), and Andrew's note a few back, and I say there is more than
just me.  Want more?

>Want more?

To summarize, Mike, you have made only accusations, and those you have made
are second hand.  You have not considered what Dake has had to say; you have
only considered what people have said Dake has had to say.  You never answered
Dake's 89 proofs in 219.7 with your own peculiar and unorthodox view
of the Trinity; instead, the best you could do was to supply Scripture 
references (219.8) that did *not* contradict or prove Dake to be other 
than an orthodox scholar.  All this and you persist in a singular campaign to 
tear down (not build up) and discredit him.  It calls into question your 
motives and your own peculiar beliefs (because Dake is found to be stiffly 
orthodox). You have done more damage to the kingdom and body of Christ through 
your baseless criticism in an attempt to (what?) warn others about a "heretic?"
An examination of his own words have shown that Dake is not a heretic, yet
you would persist in defaming him, ignoring evidence and testimonies to
the contrary.  It would do you well to consider the effect you have had
by merely casting stones in a hit-and-run judgmental affront about someone 
for whom you do not have first-hand information; it will come back to you
someday.

Mark

    Conversations offline have led me to believe that there is some
    confusion about Mr. Dake as I perceive him.  I would like to clarify
    that I do not perceive him as a heretic.  I only question his position
    in this area.  I apologize if I labeled him as a heretic.  
    
    Mike

    I apologize to Mike Heiser.  I have found Mike entries in many areas to
    be sound and until this point had no quarrel with him, even where we
    disagreed in other topics, before (tithing, for example).

    To clarify some things: I own a Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.  It
    is not my sole source of study.  On my shelf at work, I have Strong's
    Concordance, Zodhaites' key study Bible, the Comparative Study Bible (4
    version parallel), and an online KJV, in addition to Dake's ARB.  My
    NIVs are at home, as well as perhaps others.  Each of them are used in
    varying degrees of frequency.  I have never read (nor do intend to
    shell out $29 for) Dake's _God's_Plan_for_Man_ (GPFM).  I cannot
    comment on Dake's work in this text, nor have I made attempt to.  

    My reaction to Mike's first assertions contradicted my own experience
    with what Dake has supplied in the DARB.  I still find the DARB to be
    adequate to speak to many issues and questions in the Bible.  I do not,
    nor ever recommend that any one scholar be the sole source for forming
    doctrinal stances; this includes Dake.  But, I reacted to the
    suggestion of discounting and discrediting all the work of a man based
    on something other than concrete knowledge that the man was to lead
    someone to destruction by his teaching.  I found none of that in Dake.
    I recognize that misperceptions about what each of us said and what we
    understood to hear each other say have caused an escalation and
    snowball effect.

    I criticized Mike on his lack of scholarship, based on my supplying
    Dake's own words in Dake's defense.  That was premature of me to do so,
    and I am sorry for having done so.  I know that Mike is very able to 
    discern the Word and study effectively, when his time permits.

    I feel that when anyone makes a statement about a person, they may be
    making it about all people.  I've seen the Catholics taken to task
    because we disagree on certain aspects of doctrine (what I call
    encumberances), but the same can be applied to all church organizations
    in varying degrees of application.  I've seen this preacher or that
    preacher raked over the coals for odd things (and they are odd), and
    yet the same can be applied to [just about] all preachers in varying
    degrees of application.  

    It is rightly said that I got involved in this specifically because I
    own a DARB an have used Dake.  But it would only be a lesser, partial
    reason on a multifaceted issue.  The raking Dake gets as a person for
    his view on one slice of the whole picture is applied to all scholars
    in varying degrees of application.  Some better, some worse.

    I don't have to like everything anyone says, and indeed I do not. I
    don't have to like all the trappings or doctrinal stances of your
    church, and indeed I do not.  But we need to be conscious as to what is
    kingdom building and what is not.  I have not always been successful at
    this, and some of you would be the first to admit it.  I reacted
    believing that this [what I perceived as an attack on all of Dake's
    work] was not building the kingdom.  

    I apologize to Mike for lapsing into what I perceived to be his error,
    (with the mind to show him his error by example).  I'm sorry for
    putting him on the spot in such a manner.

    Mark Metcalfe

    The following is from the Assemblies of God's Tenets of Faith:
    
2. The one True God
The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existent "I AM,"
the Creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind.  He has further
revealed Himself as embodying the principles of relationship and association as
Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Deut. 6:4; Isaiah 43:10,11; Matt. 28:19;
Luke 3:22).

   a.) The Adorable Godhead (terms defined) - The terms "Trinity" and "persons"
   as related to the Godhead, while not found in the Scriptures, are words in
   harmony with the Scripture whereby we may convey to others our immediate
   understanding of the doctrine of Christ respecting the Being of God, as
   distinguished from "gods many and lords many."  We therefore may speak with
   propriety of the Lord our God, who is one Lord, as a trinity or as one
   Being of three persons, and still be absolutely scriptural (examples:
   Matt. 28:19, 2 Cor. 13:14; John 14:16,17).

   b.) Distinction and Relationship in the Godhead - Christ taught a
   distinction of Persons in the Godhead which He expressed in specific terms
   of relationship, as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but that this distinction
   and relationship, as to its mode is inscrutable and incomprehensible,
   because unexplained (Luke 1:35; 1 Cor. 1:24; Matt. 11:25-27; 28:19;
   2 Cor. 13:14; I John 1:3,4).

   c.) Unity of the one Being of Father, Son and Holy Spirit - Accordingly,
   therefore, there is that in the Son which constitutes Him the Son and not
   the Father; and there is that in the Holy Spirit and not either the Father
   or the Son.  Wherefore, the Father is the Begetter, the Son is the Begotten,
   and the Holy Spirit is the one proceeding from the Father and the Son.
   Therefore, because these three persons in the Godhead are in a state of
   unity, there is but one Lord God Almighty and His name one (John 1:18;
   15:26; 17:11,21; Zech. 14:9).

   d.) Identity and Cooperation in the Godhead - The Father, the Son and the
   Holy Spirit are never identical as to Person; nor confused as to relation;
   nor divided in respect to the Godhead; nor opposed as to cooperation.  The
   Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son as to relationship.  The
   Son is with the Father and the Father is with the Son as to fellowship.
   The Father is not from the Son, but the Son is from the Father as to
   authority.  The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son proceeding as to
   nature, relationship, cooperation and authority.  Hence, neither Person in
   the Godhead either exists or works separately or independently of the
   others (John 5:17-30,32,37; John 8:17,18).

   e.) The Title, Lord Jesus Christ - The appellation, "Lord Jesus Christ," is
   a proper name.  It is never applied in the New Testament either to the
   Father or to the Holy Spirit.  It therefore belongs exclusively to the Son
   of God (Romans 1:1-3,7; 2 John 3).

   f.) The Lord Jesus Christ, God with Us - The Lord Jesus Christ, as to His
   divine and eternal nature, is the proper and only Begotten of the Father,
   but as to His human, He is the proper Son of Man.  He is, therefore,
   acknowledged to be both God and man; who, because He is God and man, is
   "Immanuel," God with us (Matt. 1:23; 1 John 4:2,10,14; Rev. 1:13,17).

   g.) The Title, Son of God - Since the name "Immanuel" embraces both God and
   man in the one Person, our Lord Jesus Christ, it follows that the title Son
   of God describes His proper deity, and the title Son of Man, His proper
   humanity.  Therefore, the title Son of God belongs to the order of eternity,
   and the title Son of Man to the order of time (Matt. 1:21-23; 2 John 3;
   1 John 3:8; Heb. 7:3; 1:1-13).

   h.) Transgression of the Doctrine of Christ - Wherefore, it is a
   transgression of the Doctrine of Christ to say that Jesus Christ derived
   the title, Son of God, solely from the fact of the incarnation or because
   of His relation to the economy or redemption.  Therefore, to deny that the
   Father is a real and eternal Father, and that the Son is a real and eternal
   Son, is a denial of the distinction and relationship in the Being of God; a
   denial of the Father and the Son; and a displacement of the truth that
   Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (2 John 9; John 1:1,2,14,18,29,49;
   1 John 2:22,23; 4:1-5; Heb. 12:2).

   i.) Exaltation of Jesus Christ as Lord - The Son of God, our Lord Jesus
   Christ, having by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of
   the Majesty on high, angels and principalities and powers having been made
   subject unto Him.  And having been made both Lord and Christ, He sent the
   Holy Spirit that we, in the name of Jesus, might bow out knees and confess
   that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father until the end,
   when the Son shall become subject to the Father that God may be all in all
   (Heb. 1:3; 1 Peter 3:22; Acts 2:32-36; Romans 14:11; 1 Cor 15:24-28).

   j.) Equal Honor to the Father and to the Son - Wherefore, since the Father
   has delivered all judgment unto the Son, it is not only the express duty of
   all in heaven and on earth to bow the knee, but it is an unspeakable joy in
   the Holy Spirit to ascribe unto the Son all the attributes of Deity, and to
   give Him all the honor and the glory contained in all the names and titles
   of the Godhead, except those which express relationship (see paragraphs b,
   c, and d), and thus honor the Son even as we honor the Father (John 5:22,
   23; 1 Peter 1:8; Rev. 5:6-14; Phil. 2:8, 9; Rev. 7:9,10; 4:8-11).

3. The Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ
The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.  The Scriptures declare:
   a.) His virgin birth (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:31, 35).
   b.) His sinless life (Hebrews 7:26; 1 Peter 2:22).
   c.) His miracles (Acts 2:22; 10:38).
   d.) His substitutionary work on the cross (1 Cor. 15:3; 2 Cor. 5:21).
   e.) His bodily resurrection from the dead (Matt. 28:6; Luke 24:39;
       1 Cor. 15:4).
   f.) His exaltations to the right hand of God (Acts 1:9, 11; 2:33;
       Phil. 2:9-11; Hebrews 1-3).

    Here's the complete "Statement of Faith" from the Calvary Chapel's. 
    Short and sweet just like I like it! ;-)
    
Statement of Faith
------------------
1) We believe The Bible is the Word of God inspired and without error in it's
original manuscripts.  It is our only source of authority in matters of faith,
conduct, and truth.

2) We believe there is one eternal God, personal and knowable who manifests
Himself in three distinct persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy
Spirit.  He is worthy of our worship, confidence, and obedience.

3) We believe God the Son willingly took on the body of a man, was virgin-born,
became our sinless substitute, shed His blood on the cross to completely pay
for the atonement of our sins.  We believe He died, was buried, resurrected in a
literal body, ascended into Heaven, and is presently our advocate and only High
Priest.

4) We believe the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to convict the lost, place and
seal the believer in the Body of Christ, and make real and productive the things
of Christ in the believer's life.  We do not believe that any special gift is a
necessary evidence of salvation or of being filled with the Spirit.

5) We believe every person is born with a sin nature, is spiritually dead and
cannot please God until Christ gives him life.  We believe salvation from sin,
death, and hell is by God's grace.  It must be received by faith apart from any
human performance or merit.  It is a free gift of God to one who personally
places his confidence in the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the
Cross.  We believe a truly born again person is eternally secure.

6) We believe that all believers should assemble in local churches for mutual
edification, encouragement, evangelism, service and worship.  Within our
fellowship, as an act of obedience to the Word of God, we share our love of
Christ through participation in the signs of the New Covenant: The Lord's Supper
and Baptism by immersion in water.

7) We believe the Lord Jesus Christ will personally return for His own before
the tribulation and before the millennium.

                     ARTICLE I: THE TRIUNE GOD

   We believe in one eternally existent, infinite God, Sovereign of
   the Universe; that he only is God, creative and administrative,
   holy in nature attributes, and purpose; that He, as God, is Tri-
   une in essential being, revealed as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

                      ARTICLE II: JESUS CHRIST

   We believe in Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Triune God-
   head; that he was eternally one with the Father; that he became
   incarnate by the Holy Spirit and was born of the Virgin Mary, so
   that two whole and perfect natures, that is to say the Godhead
   and manhood, are thus united in one person very God and very man,
   the God-man.

   We believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and that He truly
   arose from the dead and took again his body, together with all
   things appertaining to the perfection of man's nature, wherewith
   He ascended into heaven and is there engaged in intercession for
   us.

                    ARTICLE III: THE HOLY SPIRIT

   We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Triune God-
   head, that he is ever present and efficiently active in and with
   the Church of Christ, convincing the world of sin, regenerating
   those who repent and believe, sanctifying believers, and guid-
   ing into all truth as it is in Jesus.

Athanasian Creed, 4th Century
-----------------------------
Quicunque Vult

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold
the Catholic Faith.

Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt
he shall perish everlastingly.

And the Catholic Faith is this:  That we worship one God in Trinity,
and Trinity in Unity,

Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.

For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another
of the Holy Ghost.

But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one,
the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal.

Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost.

The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate.

The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost
incomprehensible.

The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal.

And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.

As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one
uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost
Almighty.

And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God.

And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord.

And yet not three Lords, but one Lord.

For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every
Person by himself to be both God and Lord,

So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, There be three Gods,
or three Lords.

The Father is made of none; neither created nor begotten.

The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten.

The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created,
nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one
Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts.

And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other; none is greater, or less
than another;

But the whole three Persons are co-eternal together, and co-equal.

So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity
in Unity is to be worshipped.

He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of
the substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God, and perfect Man:  of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father,
as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood into God;

One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, So God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third
day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty; from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give
account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that
have done evil into everlasting fire.

This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he
cannot be saved.

    I enjoy all 4 versions, but I think I prefer the AG one the best
    because it actually addresses the intricacies of the
    inter-relationships of the Trinity.

    Something I recently received from CRI on Dake:
    
    "With regards to 'DARB', the best information we can give you, in the
    absence of already-prepared material, is Dr. Martin's basic opinion on
    the matter.  Dake's Bible was prepared by Finis Jennings Dake, a
    non-scholar who assembled a body of largely unscholarly materials to
    serve as references.  (Sample: on page 159 of the NT, left-hand column,
    he lists "Thirty Reasons for the Segregation of the Races.")  Mr. Dake
    believes that God the Father has a body, and a number of other peculiar
    positions which are reflected in the reference material.  Although
    there is much of interest in 'DARB', there is sufficient confusion to
    make it well worth one's while to search further for a good, reliable
    reference edition of the Scriptures.  You might consider 'The Open
    Bible', the 'NIV Study Bible', or the 'Thompson Chain-Reference Bible',
    just to mention a few."
    
    Prepared by Paul Carden of CRI.

    Isaiah 44:6  Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer
    the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there 
    is no God.
    
    Who is God's Redeemer?
    
    Isaiah 48:17  Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of
    Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which 
    leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
    
    God is the Redeemer!  The one who is first and last!  There is no
    other!
    
    Isaiah 48:16  Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in 
    secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now 
    the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.
    
    God *AND* His Spirit!
    
Revelation 1:8  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the 
    Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:17  And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid 
    his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the 
    last:

    God reminds us yet again that He's the first and last.
    
Revelation 1:18  I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive 
    for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 2:8  And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things 
    saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    When did God die? ;-)
    
    Mike

The doctrine of the Trinity is not quickly apparent in the Old Testament, but it
is present and it can be discovered fairly easily by the average Bible student.
In the early revelation which God makes of His person, the emphasis is clearly
on His uniqueness and oneness, as a strong rebuke and antidote to the polytheism
of the pagan nations surrounding Israel.  In Romans 1:21-23 we are told how this
multiplication of gods came about.  So the Old Testament emphasizes the unity of
the Deity, with only sporadic references to the activity of each person of the
Trinity (for example, the Son: Joshua 5:14; Proverbs 30:4; Daniel 3:25; the
Spirit: Genesis 1:2; Numbers 24:2; Judges 6:16,34; Nehemiah 9:20).  However, the
Old Testament is by no means silent on the direct revelation of the Trinity, as
we note from the following:

1. The name of God, Elohim.  This is the name by which God introduces Himself in
the very first verse of the Bible, and it is a plural name.  The Hebrew language
has a singular, a dual, and a plural number (three or more).  Elohim is neither
singular nor dual, but plural, and is used here with a singular verb, thus
Scripture commences with a powerful proof of trinity in unity: "In the beginning
God (Elohim - plural) created (bara - singular) the heaven and the earth."  This
is by no means an unimportant detail.  If we accept the authority and verbal
inspiration of the Word of God, we shall not miss the importance of this
testimony.  It should not surprise us to find the revelation of God beginning in
this way - a plural noun with a singular verb.  When God hung the earth upon
nothing (Job 26:7) and created man to inhabit it, He was not then lacking in
fellowship, but only wanting more.  From all eternity God had perfect fellowship
with Himself, but this fellowship was not unipersonal but between the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit (John 17:5,24).  Eternally, God is love (1 John 4:8,16),
but for love to exist there must be a lover, a beloved, and a spirit of love
between them.  All this and more is enclosed within the significance of this
plural name, Elohim, with which the Bible begins the revelation of God.

If Jehovah and Elohim were always transferred to our version when they occur in
the original, instead of being translated, it would be a help.  Thus the
favorite text of Unitarians (Deuteronomy 6:4), in reality declares the doctrine
of the Trinity just about as clearly and powerfully as it can be stated - the
existence of a plurality of persons (Elohim) in one God (Jehovah).  From the
same text we discover another important detail.  The Hebrew word translated
"one" ("is one Lord") is echad and means a compound unity.  An example of this
is found in Genesis 11:6.  There is another Hebrew word for "one," meaning "one
only" or "one alone" - yachid - but that is not the word used in Deuteronomy
6:4.

2.  Other evidence of Hebrew grammar.  The combination and interchange of plural
and singular are found in other texts, and have direct bearing on this doctrine.
In Genesis 1:26-27, it reads, "And God said (singular), let Us (plural) make man
in Our (plural) image...so God created (singular) man in His (singular) own
image."  Here is ample proof that we are not dealing with the plural of majesty,
like the editorial "we," or a council between God and the angels.  Others texts
like this are found in Genesis 3:22; 11:6-7, and Isaiah 6:8.

3. In the mention of the three persons of the Trinity.  In the vision of the
glory of God which Isaiah describes in chapter 6 of his book, he speaks of Him
as "the King, [Jehovah] of hosts."  The apostle John states that the glory seen
by Isaiah was that of Christ (John 12:41), while the apostle Paul adds that the
message given to the prophet was that of the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25).

In Isaiah 63:7-14 three distinct persons are spoken of as saving Israel out of
Egypt: "The Lord...He was their Savior" (verses 7-8); "and the angel of His
presence saved them" (verse 9); "That led them through the deep...The Spirit of
the Lord caused him to rest" (verses 13-14).

Twice in Isaiah the Son, as servant of Jehovah, associates the Spirit with
Himself and the Father (Isaiah 48:16; 61:1-2; Luke 4:17-20).

In Haggai 2:4-9 the Trinity can be seen.  There is the Lord, or Lord of hosts
(in all verses) who speaks of sending the Son (verse 7).  He also speaks of
the work of the Spirit (verse 5).

In Job 26:13 creation's beautiful work is ascribed to the Holy Spirit, but in
Proverbs 30:4 this craftsmanship is ascribed to the Father and Son.

4. More than one person receives titles and attributes of Deity.  That the Son
appeared to men occasionally in the Old Testament times, prior to His
incarnation, as the "angel of the Lord" (angel means messenger), in known as a
"theophany" and is a logical conclusion, based on Genesis 16 and Exodus 3:

     And the angel of the Lord found her (Genesis 16:7)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:9)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:11)
     ...and she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou
     God seest me ((Genesis 16:13)

     And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the
     midst of a bush...And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God
     called unto him out of the midst of the bush (Exodus 3:2,4).

In both cases, the angel of the Lord is subsequently called God; evidently the
angel of Yahweh is equal to Yahweh and is the manifestation of His presence.

The second Psalm unites the Father and Son in coming wrath, judgment, and
universal reign, a prerogative of God alone (Psalm 45:6; Daniel 2:44; Obadiah
21; Hebrews 1:8-9).  Life and blessing are promised to those who honor the Son,
the Lord's anointed.

It is evident that some Old Testament saints at least were aware of the
existence of the eternal Son, as seen in John 8:56, Hebrews 11:26, and
1 Corinthians 10:4.

We cannot leave the Old Testament without also referring to that wonderful,
clear prophecy of Christ the Son in Isaiah 9:6-7, where it speaks of Him as "the
mighty God" (El Gibbor).  Everywhere else in the Old Testament where this name
is used, it unquestionably refers to Yahweh Himself; therefore it cannot
possibly be translated "mighty hero" in Isaiah 9:6, as some would like to do.

The abundant Scripture evidence should be sufficient for the truth to be plain
in this matter.  However, God in His infinite wisdom has also left the imprint
of His person in the universe He created; nature reflects something of the
essence of the Creator and bears the stamp of the Triune God (Romans 1:20).  We
are aware that doctrine is not based on illustrations or analogy, even on
thousands of them, but they are helpful to an understanding of the doctrine.
The many types, symbols, and figures of the Old Testament, as well as the
parables of the New, illustrate doctrine rather than teach it.  In God's
creation it is not surprising to discover that not all that is one in number is
strictly singular in nature:

1. A man is one being, yet he is spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23;
   Hebrews 4:12); one, yet three; three, yet one.  Each one expresses the whole,
   yet the whole is manifested in the three.
2. The universe is time, space, and matter.
3. Time manifests itself in past, present, and future.
4. Space has length, breadth, and height (or depth).
5. Matter is energy, motion, and phenomena.
6. The sun in light, heat, and energy.

In each of the above, each part is inseparable from the whole and represents the
whole, and yet the whole is also manifested by each part.  For example, space
cannot exist without length, breadth, and height.  There are not three things
which space does, but which space is, and each is an expression of space.  When
we consider the center of our solar system, we see the light from the sun and
say, "That is the sun."  We feel its heat and still say, "That is the sun."  We
see plants growing by the sun's life-giving energy, and we also say, "That is
the sun."  Each ray of light consists of a luminiferous element, a calorific
element, and an actinic element.  Each performs a distinct purpose, yet all,
unitedly, constitute the one ray of light.  Each is a distinct manifestation of
the same sun, yet there are not three rays, but one ("God is light," 1 John
1:5).  We confess that it is difficult, if not impossible, to adequately
illustrate the doctrine of the Trinity.  The above are cited merely to prod our
thinking.

What are the practical, personal implications of this doctrine?  It affects at
least three vital aspects of our relationship with God:

1. Probably most important of all, it relates directly to the atonement for sin.
If Jesus was anything less than God, then He could not atone for all the sins of
all mankind (that He became true man to do this is equally valid).  That Jesus
Christ was and is God is amply affirmed in the Bible:

   - by His enemies (Matthew 26:63-66, John 5:17-18, 8:58-59, 10:32-33).
   - by His friends (Matthew 16:13-17, John 1:36,49, 20:28).  Jesus received
     worship (Matthew 9:18, 14:33, Luke 24:52, John 9:38), which apostles (Acts
     10:25-26, 14:18) and angels (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9) refused absolutely
     to do, as pertaining to God alone.
   - by His own witness (John 8:23,58, 10:30, 14:9).
   - by the Father's witness (Hebrews 1:8).

An apprehension of the doctrine of the Trinity enhances our appreciation of the
value of the atonement and gives us assurance of the eternal efficacy of
redemption.

2. It enriches our worship.  This doctrine of the Trinity partially unveils to
our puny minds the mystery of the infinite, eternal God who came to save us (2
Corinthians 5:19).  The Scripture verses setting forth this mystery pull back
the curtains for our wondering eyes to behold Him, and while we cannot fully
know Him, we fall at His feet from this glimpse of glory and, like Isaiah, hear
these words: "Holy, holy, holy [a reference to the Trinity?], is the Lord of
hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory," or, like Paul, exclaim, "O the
depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are His judgments, and His ways past find out!  For who hath known the mind of
the Lord?  or who hath been His counselor?  Or who hat first given to Him, and
it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of Him, and through Him, and to
Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

3. It also relates vitally to the eternal life God has given us, upon personal
faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  The apostle Peter informs us that we
have been made partakes of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), and it may very well
be that the study and light that the doctrine of the Trinity brings to us should
be the key to help us understand the true riches of our life in Christ, and
Christ in us (Colossians 1:27).  The Gospel of John might be called, "The Gospel
of the Trinity," for we have seen much of this doctrine there, but in chapter 17
we find the best Biblical definition of oneness, or unity in plurality, or fusion
of persons, and the analogy is applied to our Christian experience.

    "That they all may be *one*; as Thou, *Father*, art in Me, and I in Thee,
     that they also may be one in Us...that they may be one, even as We are
     one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one...
     That the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

What God has purposed to do with His redeemed is so wonderful the mind is
staggered by the thought.  He not only pardons and justifies us, not only makes
us members of His family, but comes Himself to abide in our hearts (John 14:23,
1 John 4:12-16), making His life ours and ours His!  (John 15:4-5)  And this
oneness is the pathway to spiritual maturity as Christ lives in us ("that they
may be made perfect in one").  This oneness is a vertical relationship (1 Samuel
25:29).  

    Let's not forget that the term trinity is not biblical and it has only
    been inferred from the biblical teachings.

>    Let's not forget that the term trinity is not biblical and it has only
>    been inferred from the biblical teachings.



   Please read 2.1 in this conference, which is our statement of faith, and
 speaks of what we who note in this conference (those who are left anyway)
 believe.  That someone does not share those beliefs is their choice and fine
 with us.  However, the above is contrary to the basis for this conference 
 and is offensive to those who gather here to share in our beliefs as outlined
 in 2.1



 Jim Co Mod.

    RE: .6  Jim Henderson
    
    // Let's not forget that the term trinity is not biblical and it has only
    // been inferred from the biblical teachings.

    / Please read 2.1 in this conference, which is our statement of faith, and
    / speaks of what we who note in this conference (those who are left anyway)
    / believe.  That someone does not share those beliefs is their choice and 
    / fine with us.  However, the above is contrary to the basis for this 
    / conference and is offensive to those who gather here to share in our 
    / beliefs as outlined in 2.1
    
    Please explain what you mean about the above statement being contrary
    to the basis for this conference.
    
    Are you saying that the 'trinity' *is* mentioned in the Bible?  
    If so, where?
    
    Are you saying that it has not been inferred from the Biblical
    teachings (because it is mentioned in the Bible) - or are you
    suggesting that it has been inferred or taught somewhere else?
    
    The statement above does not deny the existence of the trinity.

    
    I believe that Jim was just giving a heads up on the following:
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Note 2.1                      Conference Guidelines                     
    TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 40 lines 16-FEB-1993 12:33
                                -< Statement of Faith >-
    
    WE BELIEVE...
    
                    o there is one God, eternally existent in three
                      persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the
                      Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14)
    

Hi Suzanne,

The name 'trinity' is just a convenient term for something that is
understood as implicit in the Bible.  I think that the sensitivity was
because your note was read as being more than just a polite inquiry! 

The trinity is rejected by any who deny the divinity of Jesus (eg the 
Jehovah's Witnesses).

							Andrew

    Re: Note 57.25 by BSS::S_CONLON
    
�    My question was a polite inquiry into whether the trinity *is*
�    mentioned in the Bible, or if it is taught somewhere other than
�    via Biblical teachings.
    
    To reiterate Jim's answer, the term "trinity" is not found in the
    Bible, but the doctrine of the the Trinity is certainly there. There
    have been vast quantities of disk space consumed in previous versions
    of this conference that provide the Scripture related to this doctrine.
    
    	BD�

    This is an outrageous example of censureship.
    
    There is nothing about my statement that is against the guidelines.
    
    The question was at the time of Mary, were the Jews aware of the
    trinity.   Understanding that the term trinity is a product of early
    Christian teaching shows that the Hebrews were not aware of that
    concept.
    
    If your standard truly is the Bible, you would not be censuring this 
    comment.
    
                                   Patricia

 Notes re the "trinity" moved from topic 57 to here.




 Jim Co mod

 Patricia I believe the term "censurship" is a bit extreme.  Perhaps I should
 ask what you mean by "censureship".  The note to which I responded remains
 in the conference.


 The note in question (.80 in this topic) stated that "trinity" is not biblical,
 and while the term trinity does not appear in the Bible, your note inferred
 that the doctrine of the trinity is not Biblical.  I pointed out topic 2.1
 which states what this conference believes in respect to that doctrine, and
 by inferring the doctrine is not Biblical, it does offend those who hold that
 to be one of the basic tenets of Christianity.



 Jim

Since this topic got going because of some unbiblical claims about the
Incarnation made in another topic, let me repost the portion of the
official statement (see .4) of the early Church on the doctrine of the
Trinity that deals with God the Son:

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe
rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ,
the Son of God, is God and Man;

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of
the substance of his Mother, born in the world;

Perfect God, and perfect Man:  of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting;

Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father,
as touching his Manhood.

Who although he be God and Man, yet he is not two, but one Christ;

One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the
Manhood into God;

One altogether; not by confusion of substance, but by unity of Person.

For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, So God and Man is one Christ;

Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third
day from the dead.

He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God
Almighty; from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give
account for their own works.

And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that
have done evil into everlasting fire.

    > This is an outrageous example of censureship.
    
    I beg to differ with you.  If in fact censurship was a goal, then why
    would I go to the trouble of locating the appropriate note in which to
    put your replies and discuss said subject????
    
    Confused at your outrageous accusation.
    
    Nancy
    

censOreship.

NNTTM.

    :-)  O, pray tell? :-)

 Well, there is a term "censure" and I thought perhaps Patricia may have been
 using that.





 Jim

    
    RE: .80
    
    >Let's not forget that the term trinity is not biblical and it has only
    >been inferred from the biblical teachings.
    
    Patricia,
    
    Perhaps you were misunderstood?  Could you explain why you brought 
    this point out?  Are you saying that the concept of the trinity is 
    not present in scripture?
    
    Jill
    

    I prefer the term "Triunity."  It is more representative of God's
    actual nature.  There's also a wealth of scripture that supports it.
    
    Mike

The doctrine of the Trinity has been discussed, defended, and derided throughout
the Christian era.  Some say it is an absurdity, a mere human dogma, irreverent,
illogical, and contrary to reason.  Others, though awestruck by the mystery of
it, find here a key to the revelation of God to man.

Paradox
-------
That the doctrine presents an obstacle to human reasoning is self-evident.  For
example, the Scriptures make it quite clear that there is only one God
(Deuteronomy 4:35, 6:4, 1 Kings 8:60, 2 Kings 19:15, Isaiah 44:6, Zechariah
14:9, John 17:3, 1 Corinthians 8:4, 8:6, Galatians 3:20, James 2:19).  But it is
equally clear that there are three persons given the same divine attributes,
such as eternal existence, sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence,
unchangeableness, righteousness, and holiness.  As God, each can say "I," and in
addressing the other two, "Thou."

1. Each is called God:  Father - Romans 1:7.  Son - Matthew 1:23; Romans 9:5;
   Hebrews 1:8.  Spirit - Acts 5:3-4; Ephesians 2:22.
2. Each is called Lord:  Father - Matthew 11:25.  Son - Acts 2:36; Romans 10:9.
   Spirit - 2 Corinthians 3:17.
3. Each is called Creator: Father - Isaiah 42:5, 45:18; 1 Corinthians 8:6.
   Son - John 1:3; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2; 1 Corinthians 8:6.  Spirit -
   Genesis 1:1-2; Job 26:13,33-34.
4. Each is called Comforter:  Father - Isaiah 51:3,12; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; 7:6;
   2 Thessalonians 2:16-17.  Son - John 14:18; Philippians 2:1; 2 Thessalonians
   2:16-17.  Spirit - John 14:16-17,26; Acts 9:31.

So we are faced with two apparently contradictory truths of Scripture: there is
one God, but there are three persons who are clearly shown to be God.  Human
reasoning replies that the two are irreconcilable - if three persons are walking
down the street, they are clearly three and never one.  They may be one in
purpose, but they can never be one in substance or essence.

It may come as a surprise to some to discover that the word "Trinity" (literally
tri-unity) is not found anywhere in Scripture.  However, the doctrine certainly
is in the very warp and woof of Holy Writ.  We use the word for the sake of the
doctrine which it conveniently represents.  (The words "omniscient" and
"omnipresent" are not found in the Bible either, but no Bible student hesitates
to use them as perfectly descriptive of clearly revealed attributes of God.)

Obviously, we are handling a divine mystery.  He is God, and all we can learn or
know of the mode of His existence we must learn from the revelation of Himself
given us in the Bible.  We may argue "a priori" that certain attributes must
exist in God's nature.  But how He exists - whether as absolutely one person or
in a trinity of persons in one essence - is a matter about which we can
necessarily know nothing, except as God Himself instructs us in our ignorance.
We are but His creatures, and while "fearfully and wonderfully made," still are
limited in knowledge and understanding before the Eternal One.

Definition of Terms
-------------------
At this point, let us suggest a definition of the doctrine of the Trinity: there
is one true God; but in the unity of the Deity there are three persons: Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit; coeternal and coequal, the same in substance but
distinguishable in subsistence (not tritheism - three gods).  God is one, but in
essence three, as to persons.

We use the word "persons" simply for lack of anything more adequate in human
language to express this divine concept.  Obviously, the Bible does not refer to
three persons in the Godhead within out human concept of the term, so we must
sweep from our minds any strictly human analogy.  However, each possesses
intelligence, emotion, and will.  In that sense, they are distinct "persons."

In using the expressions, the first person of the Trinity (Father), the second
person of the Trinity (Son), and the third person of the Trinity (Holy Spirit),
it is definitely not to imply priority or superiority, which the Scripture does
not warrant, for each is very God; but in studying this triunity, the tenor of
Scripture revelation would indicate the following rationale:

The Father is essentially the source (in the sense of sender) of the divine
nature, God (John 1:18; 3:34; 8:16; 12:44-45).

The Son is essentially the manifestation of the divine nature, God (Matthew
1:23; John 1:14,18; 2 Corinthians 5:19; Philippians 2:5-9; Colossians 2:9; 1
Timothy 3:16).

The Spirit is essentially the energy of the divine nature, God (Genesis 1:1-2;
Romans 8:10-11; 15:19; 1 Corinthians 2:4; 1 Thessalonians 1:5).

How Should We Approach the Study of this Doctrine?
--------------------------------------------------
God can truly be known through the revelation He is pleased to make Himself
through His Word.  The proud, self-sufficient person will never know Him.  Our
approach must be in humility, recognizing the utter inability of the finite mind
to comprehend the infinite.  Many centuries ago Zophar counseled Job on this
subject in Job 11:7-9.

We must be ready to accept what information He chooses to give us and not try to
put God in a laboratory for analysis nor seek to reduce the infinite to a
formula.  We cannot bring God down to our level and try to know Him by human
analogies.  We are His creatures and He is the Creator.  While the search to
know God, or thirst for Him, is one of the God-given instincts in the human
breast, we quickly arrive at human limitations.  For example, we are limited by
the factors of time and space, but God is not, for He created them.

A second principle is that these truths are revealed by the Holy Spirit to those
who are spiritually alive (1 Corinthians 2:6-16).  The natural man,
unregenerate, has his understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of
God, through the ignorance that is in him, because of the blindness of his heart
(Ephesians 4:18), but upon receiving Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior he is born
again, now to be spiritually alive (John 1:12-13), even to the remarkable extent
of partaking of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4).  At this point he becomes
teachable by the Holy Spirit who dwells in him (John 14:17; 16:13-15; 1 John
2:20) and can grow in the knowledge of the glory of God (2 Corinthians 3:18;
4:6; 2 Peter 3:18).  The prayer and goal of the Christian, then, is to be
"increasing in knowledge of God" (Colossians 1:10).

As we contemplate the greatness of the eternal, almighty God; infinite in
holiness, wisdom, power, and love, we can see ourselves only as very small
before Him, and bow low in worship.  At the same time we praise Him for the
revelation He has given us of Himself in His Word and humbly welcome the light
He gives concerning His nature and mode of existence.  In this frame of mind, we
can explore through the Bible and learn what God would teach us regarding the
doctrine of the Trinity, latent in the Old Testament, but quite explicitly
propounded in the New.  To study through the Bible is to discover it.

The Triune Nature of God
------------------------
Both the OT and NT proclaim the triune nature of God - Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit.  They are co-equal, co-existent, and co-eternal, three Persons of the
same Substance (John 1:1-3, 14:26).  God is a personality who can speak and who
possesses a mind and will (Genesis 1:1,26, Jeremiah 29:11, Ezekiel 18:30).
God's character is eternal (I Timothy 1:17), omnipotent (Revelation 19:6),
omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-12), omniscient (Romans 11:33), perfect (Deuteronomy
32:4), and holy (I Peter 1:16).  More supportive Scriptures can be found in I
Corinthians 8:6, Isaiah 43:10, Exodus 3:14, I Timothy 2:5, Psalm 90:2.

1. The Father is recognized as God (I Peter 1:2) and is all the fullness of the
   Godhead invisible (John 1:18).
2. The Son is recognized as God (Hebrews 1:8) and is all the fullness of the
   Godhead manifested in the flesh (John 1:14, Colossians 2:9).
3. The Holy Spirit is recognized as God (Acts 5:3-4) and is all the fullness of
   the Godhead acting upon man, convicting him of sin (John 16:7-11) and guiding
   the believer into all truth (John 16:12-15).
4. The doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the OT, but is rather implied,
   "And God said, Let *US* make man..." (Genesis 1:26).
5. The doctrine of the Trinity is revealed in the NT.  In Matthew 3:16-17 we
   have Christ being baptized in water, the Father speaking from heaven, and the
   Holy Spirit descending as a dove.  We are to baptize in the "name (not
   names) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"
   (Matthew 28:19).
6. Even creation implies the doctrine of the Trinity.  In creation, we have
   space, matter and time in one creation.  In space, we have length, breadth,
   and height in one space.  In matter, we have energy, motion, and phenomena in
   one substance.  In time, we have past, present, and future in one time.  In
   man, we have body, soul, and spirit in one man (I Thessalonians 5:23).
7. In the Holy Trinity, we have Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in one God.

The Deity of Christ
-------------------
The Apostle's Creed states: "Conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin
Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, died and was buried; He descended into
Hell; the third day He arose from the dead; He ascended into Heaven and sitteth
on the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge
the quick and the dead."  Jesus Christ is the second Person of the Trinity, the
eternally Begotten Son of God who became flesh and is now our "great high
priest, that is passed in the heavens...[who] was in all points tempted like as
we are, yet without sin" Hebrews 4:14-15.  More supportive Scriptures can be
found in John 1:1-3, John 1:14, I John 4:3, Ephesians 1:21, Colossians 2:9.

1. He is called God by the Apostle John (John 1:1).
2. He is called God by the Apostle Thomas (John 20:28).
3. He is called God by God the Father (Hebrews 1:8).
4. He claimed to be God in that He was with the Father before creation
   (John 17:5).
5. He claimed to be God in that He was before Abraham.  "Abraham rejoiced to see
   my day..." (John 8:51-59).
6. He received worship, and only God is to be worshiped (Matthew 14:33).
   Angels are refused worship (Revelation 22:8-9).  Man is refused worship
   (Acts 10:25-26).
7. He forgives sin (Mark 2:5-11).  Only God can forgive sin.
8. He is creator and maker of all things (Colossians 1:16).
9. He is sustainer of all things (Hebrews 1:3).  Only God can control the
   universe.
10. He claimed to have "all power in heaven and in earth" (Matthew 28:18).  Only
    God has all power.
11. He walked upon the blue waters of Galilee.  The winds and waves obeyed His
    command.  He healed the sick and raised the dead.  He gave sight to the
    blind and hearing to the deaf.  He cast out demons and made the lame to
    walk.  He turned water into wine, and fed 5,000 with the lunch of a lad.

The Humanity of Jesus Christ
----------------------------
The humanity of Jesus Christ is seen in His human parentage (Matthew 2:11).

1. He developed as a normal human being (Luke 2:52).
2. He was subject to all the sinless infirmities of the human nature:
   - He hungered (Matthew 4:2)
   - He was thirsty (John 19:28)
   - He was weary (John 4:6)
   - He wept (John 11:35)
   - He was tempted (Hebrews 4:15)

Jesus is man, and yet He is more than man.  He is not God and man, but the
God-man.  He is God in human flesh.  His 2 natures are bound together in such a
way that the 2 become 1, having a single consciousness and will.  

The Trinity in the Old Testament
--------------------------------
The doctrine of the Trinity is not quickly apparent in the Old Testament, but it
is present and it can be discovered fairly easily by the average Bible student.
In the early revelation which God makes of His person, the emphasis is clearly
on His uniqueness and oneness, as a strong rebuke and antidote to the polytheism
of the pagan nations surrounding Israel.  In Romans 1:21-23 we are told how this
multiplication of gods came about.  So the Old Testament emphasizes the unity of
the Deity, with only sporadic references to the activity of each person of the
Trinity (for example, the Son: Joshua 5:14; Proverbs 30:4; Daniel 3:25; the
Spirit: Genesis 1:2; Numbers 24:2; Judges 6:16,34; Nehemiah 9:20).  However, the
Old Testament is by no means silent on the direct revelation of the Trinity, as
we note from the following:

1. The name of God, Elohim.  This is the name by which God introduces Himself in
the very first verse of the Bible, and it is a plural name.  The Hebrew language
has a singular, a dual, and a plural number (three or more).  Elohim is neither
singular nor dual, but plural, and is used here with a singular verb, thus
Scripture commences with a powerful proof of trinity in unity: "In the beginning
God (Elohim - plural) created (bara - singular) the heaven and the earth."  This
is by no means an unimportant detail.  If we accept the authority and verbal
inspiration of the Word of God, we shall not miss the importance of this
testimony.  It should not surprise us to find the revelation of God beginning in
this way - a plural noun with a singular verb.  When God hung the earth upon
nothing (Job 26:7) and created man to inhabit it, He was not then lacking in
fellowship, but only wanting more.  From all eternity God had perfect fellowship
with Himself, but this fellowship was not unipersonal but between the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit (John 17:5,24).  Eternally, God is love (1 John 4:8,16),
but for love to exist there must be a lover, a beloved, and a spirit of love
between them.  All this and more is enclosed within the significance of this
plural name, Elohim, with which the Bible begins the revelation of God.

If Jehovah and Elohim were always transferred to our version when they occur in
the original, instead of being translated, it would be a help.  Thus the
favorite text of Unitarians (Deuteronomy 6:4), in reality declares the doctrine
of the Trinity just about as clearly and powerfully as it can be stated - the
existence of a plurality of persons (Elohim) in one God (Jehovah).  From the
same text we discover another important detail.  The Hebrew word translated
"one" ("is one Lord") is echad and means a compound unity.  An example of this
is found in Genesis 11:6.  There is another Hebrew word for "one," meaning "one
only" or "one alone" - yachid - but that is not the word used in Deuteronomy
6:4.

2.  Other evidence of Hebrew grammar.  The combination and interchange of plural
and singular are found in other texts, and have direct bearing on this doctrine.
In Genesis 1:26-27, it reads, "And God said (singular), let Us (plural) make man
in Our (plural) image...so God created (singular) man in His (singular) own
image."  Here is ample proof that we are not dealing with the plural of majesty,
like the editorial "we," or a council between God and the angels.  Others texts
like this are found in Genesis 3:22; 11:6-7, and Isaiah 6:8.

3. In the mention of the three persons of the Trinity.  In the vision of the
glory of God which Isaiah describes in chapter 6 of his book, he speaks of Him
as "the King, [Jehovah] of hosts."  The apostle John states that the glory seen
by Isaiah was that of Christ (John 12:41), while the apostle Paul adds that the
message given to the prophet was that of the Holy Spirit (Acts 28:25).

In Isaiah 63:7-14 three distinct persons are spoken of as saving Israel out of
Egypt: "The Lord...He was their Savior" (verses 7-8); "and the angel of His
presence saved them" (verse 9); "That led them through the deep...The Spirit of
the Lord caused him to rest" (verses 13-14).

Twice in Isaiah the Son, as servant of Jehovah, associates the Spirit with
Himself and the Father (Isaiah 48:16; 61:1-2; Luke 4:17-20).

In Haggai 2:4-9 the Trinity can be seen.  There is the Lord, or Lord of hosts
(in all verses) who speaks of sending the Son (verse 7).  He also speaks of
the work of the Spirit (verse 5).

In Job 26:13 creation's beautiful work is ascribed to the Holy Spirit, but in
Proverbs 30:4 this craftsmanship is ascribed to the Father and Son.

4. More than one person receives titles and attributes of Deity.  That the Son
appeared to men occasionally in the Old Testament times, prior to His
incarnation, as the "angel of the Lord" (angel means messenger), in known as a
"theophany" and is a logical conclusion, based on Genesis 16 and Exodus 3:

     And the angel of the Lord found her (Genesis 16:7)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:9)
     ...and the angel of the Lord said unto her (Genesis 16:11)
     ...and she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou
     God seest me ((Genesis 16:13)

     And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the
     midst of a bush...And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God
     called unto him out of the midst of the bush (Exodus 3:2,4).

In both cases, the angel of the Lord is subsequently called God; evidently the
angel of Yahweh is equal to Yahweh and is the manifestation of His presence.

The second Psalm unites the Father and Son in coming wrath, judgment, and
universal reign, a prerogative of God alone (Psalm 45:6; Daniel 2:44; Obadiah
21; Hebrews 1:8-9).  Life and blessing are promised to those who honor the Son,
the Lord's anointed.

It is evident that some Old Testament saints at least were aware of the
existence of the eternal Son, as seen in John 8:56, Hebrews 11:26, and
1 Corinthians 10:4.

We cannot leave the Old Testament without also referring to that wonderful,
clear prophecy of Christ the Son in Isaiah 9:6-7, where it speaks of Him as "the
mighty God" (El Gibbor).  Everywhere else in the Old Testament where this name
is used, it unquestionably refers to Yahweh Himself; therefore it cannot
possibly be translated "mighty hero" in Isaiah 9:6, as some would like to do.

The Trinity in the New Testament
--------------------------------
In the New Testament we find strong emphasis on the Trinity, with only sporadic
references to one God.  It is in the cumulative evidence of text after text that
the NT underscores the doctrine of Trinity, as we observe that three persons of
the Godhead unite in many mighty works.  Consider the following:

1. In the incarnation - "And the angel answered and said unto her, *THE HOLY
GHOST* shall come upon thee, and the power of *THE HIGHEST* shall overshadow
thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called
*THE SON OF GOD*." (Luke 1:35).  "For that which is conceived in her is of *THE
HOLY GHOST*.  And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call His name
*JESUS*: For He shall save His people from their sins...Behold, a virgin, shall
be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, *GOD WITH US*." (Matthew 1:20-21,23).  The
Triune God is involved in this mighty act, so full of mystery, "God...manifest
in the flesh." (1 Timothy 3:16).

2. In the baptism of the Lord - See Luke 3:21-22.  The phrase "My beloved Son"
is cross referenced to Isaiah 42:1 and literally means "This is My Son, the
Beloved."  As the Son submits to baptism, the Father speaks from heaven, and the
Spirit descends.

3. In the redemptive work of God - see Titus 3:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; Hebrews 9:14;
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; John 3:3-16; and Luke 15:3.  In John 3, one of the
passages most frequently used to preach the good news of salvation, we clearly
see the Triune God at work to redeem sinful man:  The *SPIRIT* regenerates
(verses 3-12); the *SON* redeems (verses 13-15); and the *FATHER* reveals His
love (verse 16).  This redemptive work of the Triune God is beautifully
portrayed in Luke 15.  Note that it is one parable (verse 3), not three, but
there are three distinct persons active in seeking the sinner.  In the first
case, it is a man who seeks one lost sheep and who, laying it on his shoulders
of strength, brings it home rejoicing - an apt picture of the Son of Man who
came to seek and to save that which was lost.  In the second aspect of the same
parable it is a woman who has lost one piece of silver and who lights a lamp,
sweeps diligently, and looks until she finds it, with again a scene of rejoicing
- a striking illustration of the Holy Spirit's special ministry of illumination
and diligent searching out of the lost sinner, rejoicing when the silver of
redemption is found.  And what of God the Father?  Hardly any comment is
necessary on the familiar third aspect of the parable where the father's heart
of love and longing over the wayward son is fully told out, together with his
abundant grace in forgiveness and restoration to fellowship.

4.  On the first Lord's day - The Father (Acts 2:24, Acts 13:30, Romans 6:4);
The Son (John 2:19,21; John 10:17-18); The Spirit (Romans 8:11, 1 Peter 3:18).

5.  On the day of Pentecost - The Father (John 14:16,26); The Son (John 15:26,
16:7).  The sending of the Holy Spirit, the other Comforter, at Pentecost, is
alike ascribed to the Father and the Son.

6.  In the Church's commission - Matthew 28:19.  Note that it is "name" not
"names."  This is plain intimation of the unity of the Trinity.

7.  In the gifts to, and ministry in, the church - 1 Corinthians 12:4-6.  "Same
Spirit... Same Lord... Same God..."

8.  In apostolic salutations - 1 Thessalonians 1:3-5.  The phrase "...Him
which is, and which was, and which is to come..." in Revelation 1:4-6 is
cross-referenced to Exodus 3:14 (the "I AM").  "The seven Spirits" relates to
Isaiah 11:2 and the sevenfold, full manifestation of the Spirit.

9.  In doxologies - Jude 20-21; 2 Corinthians 13:14.

10. In the prayer life of the Christian - Ephesians 2:18, 3:14-19.

11. In the worship and service of the Christian - Ephesians 5:18-20;
Philippians 3:3; and 1 Thessalonians 5:18-19.

12. In the believer's sanctification - The Father (Jude 1; 1 Thessalonians 4:3,
5:23); The Son (1 Corinthians 1:2,30; Hebrews 10:10, 13:12); The Spirit (1 Peter
1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Corinthians 6:11).  It is interesting to note that
each person of the Godhead sanctifies through the Word: the Father (John 17:17),
the Son (Ephesians 5:26), and the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:18).

13. In the adoption of the Christian - The Father (Ephesians 1:3-5); The Son
(Galatians 4:4-5); The Spirit (Romans 8:15-16).

14. In the Christian's victory - The Father (Romans 8:31); The Son (Romans
8:34); The Spirit (Romans 8:26).

15. In the matter of blasphemy - Matthew 12:31-32.  Note how the three persons
of the Godhead are distinguished.  "All manner of sin and blasphemy" is
understood to be directed against God, since all sin is essentially against Him.
This can be forgiven.  A word against the Son of Man can also be forgiven (verse
32), but the case of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is distinct from the
other two.

The overwhelming evidence of these verses should be sufficient to prove the
doctrine of the Trinity, if we are ready to accept the light and authority of
the Scriptures alone.  It is both interesting and important to observe that
there is no strict order of mention of the three persons of the Godhead in the
foregoing verses, which both emphasizes the deity of each and underscores the
fact that there is no jealousy there.  The three persons of the Godhead are
clearly distinguishable, coequal and coeternal, the Triune God.  Such an
intertwining of attributes and functions speaks convincingly of oneness.
However, the foregoing list of texts is representative, not exhaustive.  Further
reading and study should bring out more, especially in the Epistles.  For
example, here is a list from Ephesians:

_Chapter_1_
Contains a three-verse hymn of praise to the Triune God for His redemptive work.
Each verse ends in a note of praise and worship.

a) The Father's work of love (1:3-6): Appointing (1:4), Adopting (1:5),
Accepting (1:6), "To the praise of the glory of His grace" (1:6).

b) The Son's work of grace (1:7-12): Emancipating (1:7), Enlightening (1:9),
Enriching (1:11), "To the praise of His glory" (1:12).

c) The Spirit's work of testimony (1:13-14): Sealing (1:13), Securing (1:14),
Strengthening (1:16), "Unto the praise of His glory" (1:14).

_Chapter_2_
For through *Him* [Christ] we both have access by one Spirit unto the *Father*
(2:18-22).  In *Whom* [the Lord] ye also are builded together for an habitation
of *God* through the *Spirit* (2:22).

_Chapter_3_
The dispensation of the grace of *God*... (the mystery of *Christ*)...now
revealed... by the *Spirit* (3:2-5).  Strengthened with might by His *Spirit*
in the inner man; That *Christ* may dwell in your hearts by faith...that ye
might be filled with all the fullness of *God* (3:16-19).

_Chapter_4_
One *Spirit*...One *Lord*...One *God* and Father (4:4-6).  Grieve not the Holy
*Spirit *of God...forgiving one another, even as *God* for *Christ*'s sake hath
forgiven you (4:30-32).

_Chapter_5_
Be filled with the *Spirit*...making melody in your heart to the *Lord*;  Giving
thanks always for all things unto *God* and the Father in the name of our Lord
Jesus *Christ* (5:18-20).

_Chapter_6_
Be strong in the *Lord*, and in the power of His might.  Put on the whole armour
of *God*...And take...the sword of the *Spirit* (6:10-17).

The Alpha and Omega
-------------------
The Bible tells us in several places that God is the first and last, the Alpha
and the Omega, the beginning and the end, and that He is the only God.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I
am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6  
    
Who is God's Redeemer?  Let's look further.
    
"Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy
God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou
shouldest go." Isaiah 48:17  
    
God is the Redeemer!  The one who is first and last!  There is no other!
    
"Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the
beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and
his Spirit, hath sent me." Isaiah 48:16  
    
God *AND* His Spirit!  The 3rd Person of the Trinity!  Several more passages
have God reminding us yet again that He's the first and last.

"Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I
the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he." Isaiah 41:4  
    
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is,
and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." Revelation 1:8  

"And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand
upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:  I am he that
liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the
keys of hell and of death." Revelation 1:17-18

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;" Revelation 2:8  

When did God die?  At the cross.  He died for you and I because He loved us
and knew it was the only way we could be with Him.  We must believe and accept
that Jesus Christ is God.

Illustrations of the Trinity
----------------------------
The abundant Scripture evidence should be sufficient for the truth to be plain
in this matter.  However, God in His infinite wisdom has also left the imprint
of His person in the universe He created; nature reflects something of the
essence of the Creator and bears the stamp of the Triune God (Romans 1:20).  We
are aware that doctrine is not based on illustrations or analogy, even on
thousands of them, but they are helpful to an understanding of the doctrine.
The many types, symbols, and figures of the Old Testament, as well as the
parables of the New, illustrate doctrine rather than teach it.  In God's
creation it is not surprising to discover that not all that is one in number is
strictly singular in nature:

1. A man is one being, yet he is spirit, soul, and body (1 Thessalonians 5:23;
   Hebrews 4:12); one, yet three; three, yet one.  Each one expresses the whole,
   yet the whole is manifested in the three.
2. The universe is time, space, and matter.
3. Time manifests itself in past, present, and future.
4. Space has length, breadth, and height (or depth).
5. Matter is energy, motion, and phenomena.
6. The sun in light, heat, and energy.

In each of the above, each part is inseparable from the whole and represents the
whole, and yet the whole is also manifested by each part.  For example, space
cannot exist without length, breadth, and height.  There are not three things
which space does, but which space is, and each is an expression of space.  When
we consider the center of our solar system, we see the light from the sun and
say, "That is the sun."  We feel its heat and still say, "That is the sun."  We
see plants growing by the sun's life-giving energy, and we also say, "That is
the sun."  Each ray of light consists of a luminiferous element, a calorific
element, and an actinic element.  Each performs a distinct purpose, yet all,
unitedly, constitute the one ray of light.  Each is a distinct manifestation of
the same sun, yet there are not three rays, but one ("God is light," 1 John
1:5).  We confess that it is difficult, if not impossible, to adequately
illustrate the doctrine of the Trinity.  The above are cited merely to prod our
thinking.

The Importance of the Doctrine of the Trinity
---------------------------------------------
What are the practical, personal implications of this doctrine?  It affects at
least three vital aspects of our relationship with God:

1. Probably most important of all, it relates directly to the atonement for sin.
If Jesus was anything less than God, then He could not atone for all the sins of
all mankind (that He became true man to do this is equally valid).  That Jesus
Christ was and is God is amply affirmed in the Bible:

   - by His enemies (Matthew 26:63-66, John 5:17-18, 8:58-59, 10:32-33).
   - by His friends (Matthew 16:13-17, John 1:36,49, 20:28).  Jesus received
     worship (Matthew 9:18, 14:33, Luke 24:52, John 9:38), which apostles (Acts
     10:25-26, 14:18) and angels (Revelation 19:10, 22:8-9) refused absolutely
     to do, as pertaining to God alone.
   - by His own witness (John 8:23,58, 10:30, 14:9).
   - by the Father's witness (Hebrews 1:8).

An apprehension of the doctrine of the Trinity enhances our appreciation of the
value of the atonement and gives us assurance of the eternal efficacy of
redemption.

2. It enriches our worship.  This doctrine of the Trinity partially unveils to
our puny minds the mystery of the infinite, eternal God who came to save us (2
Corinthians 5:19).  The Scripture verses setting forth this mystery pull back
the curtains for our wondering eyes to behold Him, and while we cannot fully
know Him, we fall at His feet from this glimpse of glory and, like Isaiah, hear
these words: "Holy, holy, holy [a reference to the Trinity?], is the Lord of
hosts: the whole earth is full of His glory," or, like Paul, exclaim, "O the
depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable
are His judgments, and His ways past find out!  For who hath known the mind of
the Lord?  or who hath been His counselor?  Or who hat first given to Him, and
it shall be recompensed unto him again?  For of Him, and through Him, and to
Him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

3. It also relates vitally to the eternal life God has given us, upon personal
faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.  The apostle Peter informs us that we
have been made partakes of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), and it may very well
be that the study and light that the doctrine of the Trinity brings to us should
be the key to help us understand the true riches of our life in Christ, and
Christ in us (Colossians 1:27).  The Gospel of John might be called, "The Gospel
of the Trinity," for we have seen much of this doctrine there, but in chapter 17
we find the best Biblical definition of oneness, or unity in plurality, or fusion
of persons, and the analogy is applied to our Christian experience.

    "That they all may be *one*; as Thou, *Father*, art in Me, and I in Thee,
     that they also may be one in Us...that they may be one, even as We are
     one: I in them, and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one...
     That the love wherewith Thou hast loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

What God has purposed to do with His redeemed is so wonderful the mind is
staggered by the thought.  He not only pardons and justifies us, not only makes
us members of His family, but comes Himself to abide in our hearts (John 14:23,
1 John 4:12-16), making His life ours and ours His!  (John 15:4-5)  And this
oneness is the pathway to spiritual maturity as Christ lives in us ("that they
may be made perfect in one").  This oneness is a vertical relationship (1 Samuel
25:29).  

Conclusion
----------
We believe that the foregoing pages show clearly that Scripture teaches that the
doctrine of the Trinity is:

    1.  Biblical.
    2.  Indispensable to an increase in the knowledge of God (Colossians 1:10)
        - Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
    3.  Important to a proper appreciation and appropriation of God's so great
        salvation, freely offered to all men in the gospel.

    >Let's not forget that the term trinity is not biblical and it has only
        >been inferred from the biblical teachings.
    
    I know Mike has just entered herds of scripture about the biblical
    proof of the Trinity but I wanted to add a shorter/concise scriptural
    proof for those (like me) who are short of time.
    
    Firstly Jesus being God:
    
    Hebrews 1:8 "About the Son he says "Your throne O God......."
    Every time Paul calls Jesus Lord he is using the greek word Kyrios
    which, in the greek old testament of the day, was the word used for
    Yahweh
    
    In the gospeels (sorry can't find the scriptures) the pharisees rightly
    said "Who can forgive sin but God??"
    
    
    THe Holy Spirit:
    
    Throughout the book of Acts the Apostles refer to the Holy Spirit as
    saying all that God is recorded as having said through the O.T.
    prophets (i.e. Acts 28:25)
    
    There are herds more (see mikes note) - this is just a few.
    
    Love
    Ben
    

�    In the gospeels (sorry can't find the scriptures) the pharisees rightly
�    said "Who can forgive sin but God??"

Luke 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is
    this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

'conc' came up trumps again!

							Andrew

    Trinity snarf!
    

    Actually, in the Gospels, Jesus forgives sins in the name of the
    father, and also gives instructions to the disciples that they too can
    forgive sins in the name of the father.
    
                                      Patricia

    Jesus teaches the people how to pray.  He teaches them to pray to 
    
    "Our father".  It would seem from that reference that we should not be
    praying to the Son either.

    Jesus on the cross says
    
    "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do"
    
                                Patricia

    Jesus says on the cross,
    
    My God, my God, why have thou forsaken me!.  Jesus recognized the
    father as "his" God.
    
                              Patricia

John 14:7  If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from 
henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 

  8  Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 

  9  Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast 
thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how 
sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 

John 20:27  Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my 
hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not 
faithless, but believing. 

 28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 

 29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast 
believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 

John 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before 
Abraham was, I am. 


 59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went 
out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. 

Acts 5:3  But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie 
to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? 

  4  Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it 
not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? 
thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. 

�      <<< Note 219.100 by CSC32::P_SO "Get those shoes off your head!" >>>

�    Trinity snarf!
    
I think you'd need 219.300 for that really, Pam - or should that be 219.333? ;-)

								&

    
    
    "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all 
     creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven
     and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers
     or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 
     He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
     And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning
     and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he 
     might have the supremacy.  For God was pleased to have all his 
     fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself
     all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making
     peace through his blood, shed on the cross."
    
     

  For God [God-Father]  was pleased to have all his [God-Father] 
     fullness dwell in him [Christ], and through him [Christ] to reconcile
     to himself [God-Father] all things,
    
    
    Did I get this right?
    
    
    Patricia 

    
    Yep.

Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    The Greek for image says, "exact representation."
    
Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the lord the king of Israel, and his redeemer the lord of hosts;
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no god.
    
Revelation 2:8
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first
and the last, which was dead, and is alive;

    When did God die? ;-)
    
Psalms 110:1
THE LORD said unto my Lord, sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine
enemies thy footstool.

    YHWH is talking to Adonai, which is David's Lord, but we all know
    David's Lord is God.  btw - this Messianic Pslam is quoted in Hebrews
    1 and 7.
    
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall
be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called wonderful, counsellor, the
mighty god, the everlasting father, the prince of peace.

    The Son is called Mighty God, Everlasting Father!
    
Isaiah 42:8
I am the lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another,
neither my praise to graven images.

John 17:5
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I
had with thee before the world was.

    God says He doesn't share His glory with anyone, but Christ has had it
    since before the world was created.
    
    We could go on and on and on...
    
    Mike

Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in
his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the
ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is this SON'S name, if thou canst
tell?

    If Jesus isn't God then the disciples/apostles and all the saints over
    2,000 years have been guilty of worshipping someone other than God,
    which is a mega-big sin and not one that God takes lightly.
    
    Jesus is Lord (Kyrios - Yahweh) and I will worship Him forever. Worthy
    is the Lamb to receive all glory and dominion and power and glory and
    thanks and praise and love and adoration.
    
    Love
    Ben

    re; 115
    
    
    good point!

    Here's an interesting exercise: carefully diagram the speakers and
    subjects in Psalm 2 (a Messianic Psalm) and you will discover that it 
    is a *trialogue* among the 3 persons of the Triunity.
    
    In Genesis 1, the name for God - "Elohim," is a plural noun despite the
    fact that there is one God (Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7).  Plurality in 
    oneness is Biblical.  Look at Genesis 2:24 where Adam and Eve become one 
    flesh.  In Ecclesiastes 12:1 and Isaiah 54:5 there's more plurality in
    God.
    
    Review the vision Isaiah had of the holy place in chapter 6.  Note the
    seraphim declare the Holiness of God 3 times.  This is confirmed in
    other throne room visions in the Bible as well (Revelation 4:8).  Note
    again the plurality in Isaiah 6:8 "who will go for *Us*?"
    
    Who is the Lord of Hosts?  Most apply this title to the Father, yet
    John 12:41 says it's Christ, Paul says it's the Holy Spirit (Acts
    28:25), thus all 3 are included.
    
    Look at Jacob's blessing in Genesis 48:15-16.  The "God before whom my
    fathers did walk," "The God who fed me," and "the Angel who redeemed
    me," are all mentioned as objects of divine worship and the source of
    blessing: God the Father, God the source of illumination and comfort,
    and the "Goel" (the Redeemer).
    
    The Aaronic blessing in Numbers 6:24-27 is just as provocative.  Break
    down the phrases:
    
    1. The Lord bless thee, and keep thee: 
        (the benevolent "love of God," the Father of mercies and fountain
        of all good).
    
    2. The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
        (the redeeming and reconciling "grace of our Lord Jesus Christ")
    
    3. The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
        (the purity, consolation, and joy received by the communion of the
         Holy Spirit.)
    
    Now compare this with the New Testament benediction in 2 Corinthians
    13:14:
    
    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the
    communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all.  Amen."
    
    Mike

    Here are some evidences for the Triune Nature of God from the Book of
    Mormon, which is a doctrine that the Church of Latter Day Saints reject 
    despite what it says.  The LDS church supports polytheism.

Bible - God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24, Luke 24:39).

    "And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit?  And
    he said, Yea.  And Ammon said: This is God."  - Alma 18:26-28a.

Bible - God the Father has always been God (Psalms 90:2, Hosea 11:9, Numbers
        23:19, Romans 1:22-23, Deuteronomy 4:35).

    "For do we not read that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever,
    and forever, and in him there is no variableness neither shadow of
    changing?  And now, if ye have imagined up unto yourselves a god who
    doth vary, and in whom there is shadow of changing, then have ye
    imagined up unto yourselves a god who is not a God of miracles.  But
    behold, I will show unto you a God of miracles, even the God of
    Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; and it is that
    same God who created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in
    them are...And if there were miracles wrought then, why has God ceased
    to be a God of miracles and yet be an unchangeable Being?  And behold,
    I say unto you he changeth not; if so he would cease to be God; and he
    ceaseth not to be God, and is a God of miracles."  - Mormon 9:9-11,19. 
    Similar passages found in Moroni 8:18, II Nephi 27:23.

    "Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?  And He answered, No." -
    Alma 11:28-29.

Bible - God already possesses eternal wisdom, power, and knowledge, and so never
        changes (Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8, Jeremiah 23:24, Isaiah 40:28).

    See Mormon 9:9-11,19, Moroni 8:18, and II Nephi 27:23 above.

Bible - There is only one God, but 3 distinct persons in the Godhead
        (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 48:12-13,16, Matthew 3:16-17).

    "For if there be no Christ there be no God; and if there be no God we
    are not, for there could have been no creation.  But there is a God,
    and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time." -
    II Nephi 11:7

    "And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is
    the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also
    that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God." - II Nephi 26:12

    "And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is
    none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in
    the kingdom of God.  And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ,
    and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of
    the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end.  Amen." - II Nephi 31:21.

    "And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God,
    and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the
    Father and the Son- The Father, because he was conceived by the power
    of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and
    Son- And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and
    earth.  And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son
    to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to
    the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and
    cast out, and disowned by his people." - Mosiah 15:2-5

    "And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily
    I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are
    one; and I am in the Father and the Father in me, and the Father and I
    are one." - III Nephi 11:27

    "And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will
    bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and
    the Holy Ghost are one." - III Nephi 11:36

Genesis 1:26a	And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
		likeness...
	  27	So God created man in his own image, in the image of God
		created he him; male and female created he them.
                

Since we were created in God's own image, I believe we can in fact learn some-
thing about God by examining our own personification.  In other words, we can
see an image of the Creator in the creature.

As a person, whether male or female, each of us comprises three parts:  Body;
Soul; and Spirit (see 1Th 5:23).  I take body to mean our entire physical
structure, that which can be characterized by the senses (see, hear, touch,
taste and smell) and with which we act and interact.

I take soul to mean our capacity for rational thought, inference, discrimina-
tion, volition and passion, i.e., mind, will and emotion.

I take spirit to mean the animating or life-giving principle within us, that
which motivates our behavior independent of time and space.  I believe our
spirit sets us apart from animals, i.e., animals are driven by instinct, albeit
with capacity to think, choose/adapt and feel within their physical environment,
while human beings can go beyond themselves to effect both external and internal
change with varying degrees of independence.

Now, who am I really?  Am I completely described by my physical appearance and
actions?  Or by my choices, reactions and ability to communicate and share
thoughts and emotions?  Or by my unseen spirit?  Or am I fully appreciated and
comprehended only when all aspects of my personality are taken together as one?

God is a spirit, and we must worship Him in spirit and in truth (Jn 4:24).  In
order to worship God in truth, we must know what is true both about ourself, a
creature, and about God, the Creator.  God is light, both the source and the
revealer of Truth concerning Himself and us.  All we need to know about God is
revealed through His Word.

The Word of God incarnate is Jesus Christ, not a person in whom can be seen an
image of God, but rather the person who is the express image of God.  In other
words, God in the flesh is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God in the flesh.

I submit that God's Word in relation to His personality is analogous to our own
soul (thoughts, including both values and processes, choices and emotions)
imparted through our written and spoken communication and observable actions and
reactions.  I regard our soul as the interface between the physical and the
spiritual, the means by which experience is correlated with spiritual reality
and spiritual principles are translated into practice.  As my soul works to
reveal who I am through words and actions, so God's Word works to reveal Him.
As I can continue to be known and to influence apart from my physical presence
through recorded words and actions, not to mention my progeny, so is God made
adequately known through His only begotten Son, written Word and observable
action in the created order.


God the Father is analogous to our own body, the means by which He acts and
interacts and the entire physical structure through which His creatures
sensorily perceive their Creator.  Again, God in our form is Jesus Christ, and
Jesus Christ is God in our form.  To me, the mystery of the Godhead is that God
transcends our personification, yet Jesus Christ in our form was fully God!  I
regard the Godhead, the Trinity, if you will, as a mystery because I have not
(yet) fully grasped all nuances and ramifications, but not as a dilemma because
God continues to reveal Himself enough to satisfy my needs.  We need look only
to Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, and the written Word of God, both inspired by
the Holy Spirit who also indwells the believer.

God the Holy Spirit is analogous to our own spirit.  Another mystery, perhaps
the greatest of all, is that God's Spirit can unite with, or come alongside, our
spirit to make us like Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.  In our form, Jesus
learned obedience to become the author of eternal salvation (see Heb 5:8-9).  He
now sits at God's right hand living to make intercession for us who believe (see
Ro 8:34 and Heb 7:25), knowing fully and exactly our experience, until all
things are restored (see 1Co 15:20-28).

Moreover, human beings are meant to be in relationship, with both their Creator
and each other.  Male and female together, particularly becoming one flesh in
marriage, afford a more complete view of the Godhead.  Variety within the
created order taken together offers insight into the Godhead.  Diversity in
human beings and the manifestation of God's Spirit through different people by
different means offer a deeper understanding of the Godhead.  Members of
Christ's Body, His Church, must be taken and accepted together to help gain a
full appreciation of the Godhead.

So, is God three persons acting as one?  Or is God one tripartite being whose
personality is fully revealed (and to whom we can relate) in each of three
unique ways, even concurrently, according to His purposes and our need?  I
favor the second view, but have no particular issue with the first.  After all
is said and done, the crux of the matter remains Jesus Christ:  To deny Him as
God in the flesh is to deny God and die; whereas to confess Jesus Christ as God
in the flesh, to accept His work on our behalf and to know/obey His Word is
eternal life.

    re .84 (by ICTHUS::YUILLE)
    
>The trinity is rejected by any who deny the divinity of Jesus (eg the 
>Jehovah's Witnesses).
    
    Strictly speaking, Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT "deny the divinity of
    Jesus"; for we do believe Jesus to have been "divine" before he came to
    earth, and he is "divine" now that he has returned to heaven.  However,
    our belief in the nature of his divinity (i.e., what it means to say he
    is divine; to say that he is _theos_, according to John 1:1) is
    different from the belief that has been defined by the 'orthodox
    church' creeds.  [We feel our view reflects the original 1st-century
    viewpoint of the Jewish Bible writers, and not what has been
    superimposed by post-3rd century theologians of Christendom.]
    
    Having said the above, however, I'd like to suggest followups to be
    directed to me via e-mail, since a) I don't usually monitor this
    conference, b) I don't have time for a NOTES debate on this topic, and
    c) I've made the personal decision to avoid stirring up JW-related
    debates in this conference, since they just don't seem to sit too well
    with its usual audience.  The few 'old timers' who remember past
    versions of this conference can attest to that.
    
    							regards,
    							-mark.

The Jehovah's Witnesses also reject the doctrine of God's triune nature as
portrayed in the Bible.  Let's examine what their Bible, the New World
Translation (NWT) says about God's nature.

Who is Jesus?
-------------
When Jesus came to Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, "Who are men
saying the Son of man is?"  Then He asked His disciples, "YOU, though, who do
You say I am?" - Matthew 16:13,15 (NWT)

Let's start at the very beginning
---------------------------------
1. There is a God.
   Genesis 1:1 (NWT) "In the beginning God..."

2. There is only 1 God.
   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "Does there exist a God besides me?  No..."
   (See also Isaiah 43:10-11, 44:6, 45:5).

3. He is identified as Jehovah.
   Isaiah 43:12b (NWT) "'So you are My witnesses,' is the utterance of
   Jehovah, 'and I am God.'"  Isaiah 43:3 (NWT) "For I am Jehovah your God..."

4. He is our father.
   Isaiah 64:8 (NWT) "And, now, O Jehovah, you are our father..."
   (See also Isaiah 63:16, Psalm 89:26).

5. There is only ONE father.
   Ephesians 4:6 (NWT) "One God and Father of all..."

6. God is eternal.
   Psalm 90:2 (NWT) "Before the mountains themselves were born... Even from
   time indefinite to time indefinite you are God."

7. He is identified as the "Mighty God."
   Isaiah 10:21 (NWT) "A mere remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the
     Mighty God."
   Jeremiah 32:18 (ASV) "...the great, the mighty God, Jehovah of hosts is his
     name."

8. God is called the "first and the last."
   Isaiah 44:6 (NWT) "This is what Jehovah has said,...'I am the first and I am
   the last, and besides me there is no God.'"

9. God is the "Alpha and the Omega."
   Revelation 21:5-7 (NWT) "And the one seated on the throne said...I am the
   Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end.  To anyone thirsting I will
   give from the fountain of water of life free.  Anyone conquering will
   inherit these things, and I shall be his God and He will be my son."
   (See also Revelation 1:8).

10. God is the "beginning and the end."
   See Scripture quoted above.

11. God is the Lord of lords.
   Deuteronomy 10:17 (NWT) "For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord
   of lords, the great, might..."

12. God is the creator.
   Isaiah 45:12 (NWT) "I myself have made the earth and have created even man
   upon it.  I--my own hands have stretched out the heavens, and all the army of
   them I have commanded."
   Isaiah 45:18 "For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the
   heavens..."

13. God is the ONLY Savior.
   Isaiah 43:11 (NWT) "I--I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior."

14. Jehovah is my shepherd.
   Psalm 23:1a (NWT)

15. Jehovah is the "Rock."
   Isaiah 44:8b (NWT) "...Does there exist a God besides me?  No, there is no
   Rock.  I have recognized none."
   (See also Deuteronomy 32:4).

What does the Scripture really say concerning Jesus?
----------------------------------------------------

When Jesus was talking to his disciples, especially in answer to Philip's
question, He said, "Have I been with YOU men so long a time, and yet, Philip you
have not come to know me?..." - John 14:9a (NWT)

1. Jesus is God.
   Titus 2:13 (NAS) "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory
   of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus."
   2 Peter 1:1 (NAS) "Simon Peter,...to those who have received a faith of the
   same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:"
   (See also John 1:1, 1 John 5:20).

2. Jesus is Jehovah.
   a. In Exodus 3:14, God refers to Himself as "I AM."  This is because "I AM"
      has the same root as Jehovah.  It is from the verb "to be."  In John
      8:51-59, Jesus says, "...before Abraham was born, I AM."  Note: Jesus
      quoted directly from the Septuagint, a translation from the Old
      Testament Hebrew (~300 B.C.) into Greek, the world's language in those
      days.  This version was in common use then.

      So in actuality, Jesus was really saying, "I AM Jehovah!"  Those Jews
      caught the message, for the next verse (59) says, "They took up stones
      therefore to cast at him..." (ASV).  See also John 8:24-28, John 18:5-6
      where Jesus says, "I AM."

   b. In John 10:30-33 we see that the Jews understood Jesus' message.  Verse
      33, "...for a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and
      because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (ASV).  See also
      John 5:18.

   c. Peter, in his great sermon on the day of Pentecost quotes Joel, Acts 2:16
      (ASV) "but this is that which hath been spoken through the prophet Joel."
      At this point Peter quoted Joel 2:28-32.

      Joel 2:32 (ASV) "And it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call on
      the name of Jehovah shall be delivered.

      Acts 2:21 (ASV) "And it shall be that whosoever shall call on the name of
      the Lord shall be saved."

   d. The New Testament writers quote Isaiah to show that John the Baptist was
      the "voice in the wilderness."  Matthew 3:3a (ASV) "For this is he that
      was spoken of through Isaiah the prophet..."  At this point Isaiah 40:3
      is quoted:

      Isaiah 40:3 (ASV) "The voice of one that crieth, Prepare ye in the
      wilderness the way of Jehovah; make level in the desert a highway for
      our God."

      Matthew 3:3b (ASV) "The voice of one crying in the wilderness.  Make ye
      ready the way of the Lord, Make his paths straight."

   e. Paul, in Philippians chapter 2, quotes Isaiah 45:23.

      Isaiah 45:23 (ASV) Jehovah speaking, "By myself have I sworn, the word is
      gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that
      unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."

      Philippians 2:10-11 (ASV) "that in the name of Jesus every knee should
      bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
      and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the
      glory of God the Father."

   f. Compare                             With
      Isaiah 43:15     "Holy One"         Mark 1:23, John 6:69, Acts 2:27
      Isaiah 6:1-5,10  "His" Glory        John 12:40-41
      Isaiah 44:6      "Redeemer"         Titus 2:14

3. Jehovah only to be worshiped.
   a. Jesus declares that Jehovah only is to be worshiped in Matthew 4:8 (NWT)
      "Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed
      him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, and he said to him,
      'All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of
      worship to me.'"  Then in verse 10, Jesus said to him, "Go away, Satan!
      For it is written, 'It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is
      to Him alone you must render sacred service.'"

      NOTICE Hebrews 1:5-6.  For example, to which one of the angels did he ever
      say, "You are my son; I, today, I have become your father?"  And again, "I
      myself shall become his father, and he himself will become my son."  But
      when he again brings his first-born into the inhabited earth, He says,
      "And let all God's angels worship Him."

      Luke 4:8 In reply Jesus said to him, "It is written, 'It is Jehovah your
      God you must worship, and it is Him alone you must render sacred
      service.'"

      Revelation 19:10 At that I fell down before his feet to worship him.  But
      He tells me "Be careful!  Do not do that!  All I am is a fellow slave of
      you and your brothers who have the work of witnessing to Jesus.  Worship
      God; for the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying."

   b. Jehovah says in Exodus 20 that man is to have no other gods before Him.
      "...you must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I
      Jehovah your God..." (NWT)

   c. Yet Jesus was worshiped.
      1. Matthew 8:2 "There came to Him a leper and worshiped Him, saying, if
         thou wilt..."
      2. Matthew 9:18 "There came a ruler and worshiped Him, saying, my
         daughter..."
      3. Matthew 14:33 "And they that were in the boat worshiped Him, saying,
         'Of a truth thou art...'"
      4. Matthew 15:25 "But she came and worshiped Him saying, 'Lord help me'"
      5. Matthew 20:20 "Then came to Him the mother of the sons of Zebedee with
         her sons, worshiping Him, and asking..."
      6. Matthew 28:9 "And behold, Jesus met them, saying, 'All hail." And they
         came and took hold of His feet, and worshiped Him."
      7. Matthew 28:17 "And when they saw Him, they worshiped Him..."

   d. What was Paul and Barnabas' attitude when the people started saying, "The
      gods are come down to us in the likeness of men?"  Acts 14:11  "They
      rent their garments and sprang forth among the multitude crying out...We
      also are men of like passions with you..." Acts 14:14-15.

   e. What happened to Herod in Acts 12:21 when "Herod arrayed himself in royal
      apparel, and sat on the throne, and make an oration unto them.  And the
      people shouted, saying, 'The voice of a god, and not of a man.'
      Immediately an angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the
      glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost."

   f. Thomas, finally, when he believed said, "My Lord and my God."  Did Jesus
      correct him?  No, he blessed him.

   g. Notice Revelation 19:10.  Was John to worship an angel?  NO!
      "...Worship God..."

   NOTE: John 1:1 says that the Word, Jesus, was god!  This is an accurate
   translation, and in strict harmony with the rules of Greek grammar.  See any
   competent Greek Grammar, for example: "A Manual Grammar of the Greek New
   Testament" by Dana and Mantey, p. 138-140, and "Essentials of New Testament
   Greek by Summers," p. 129-130.

   The title "Son of God" (although it can mean relationship) can mean, and in
   several cases does mean that "He, Jesus, was a manifestation of God in human
   form."  ("An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words" by W.E. Vine, p.
   48).

Some people say that God created Jesus, according to Revelation 3:14 and
Colossians 1:45.  The Greek contradicts this teaching clearly.  So do the
Scriptures.  See Isaiah 43:10.  The use of the word Lord can be applied to
Jehovah in the Old Testament.  See Isaiah 65:13, and is used in reference to to
BOTH God, and Jesus in the New Testament.  In 2 parallel passages, one writer
uses "Lord" and one uses "God," yet Ephesians 4:5 says there is ONE Lord.  (Mark
5:19 and Luke 8:39).

4. Jesus is identified as the "Father."
   Isaiah 9:6 (NWT) "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son
   given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder, and his
   name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince
   of Peace." (only one Father - Ephesians 4:6).

5. Jesus is eternal (everlasting).
   Micah 5:2 "But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, which are little to be among the
   thousands of Judah, out of thee shall one come forth unto me that is to be
   ruler in Israel; whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting." (ASV)

6. Jesus is identified as the "Mighty God."
   see Isaiah 9:6 above.

7. Jesus is the first and the last.  Jesus is the "Alpha and the Omega."
   Jesus is the "beginning and the end."

   Revelation 22:12-13 (NWT)  "Look!  I am coming quickly, [who is coming
   quickly? see verse 16,20] and the reward I give is with me, to render each
   one as his work is.  I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last,
   the beginning and the end."

8. Jesus is the Lord of lords.
   Revelation 17:14 (NWT) "These will battle with the Lamb, but because he is
   Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them..."

9. Jesus is the creator.
   Colossians 1:16 (ASV) "for in Him [Jesus] were all things created, in the
   heavens and upon the earth, things visible and things invisible, whether
   thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things have been
   created through him, and unto him;"  (See also John 1:1-4 and Hebrews 1:1-3).

10. Jesus is the Savior.
   1 John 4:14 (NWT) "In addition, we ourselves have beheld and are bearing
   witness that the Father has sent forth His Son as Savior of the world."

   Acts 4:12 (NWT) "Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there
   is not another name under heaven that has been given among me by which we
   must get saved."

11. Jesus is the Shepherd.
   John 10:11 (NWT) Jesus speaking, "I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd
   surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep."

   Hebrews 13:20 (NWT) "Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead
   the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an everlasting covenant,
   our Lord Jesus."

12. Jesus is the Rock.
   1 Corinthians 10:4 (ASV) "and did all drink of the same spiritual drink; for
   they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ."
   (see also Romans 9:33, 1 Peter 2:6-8, Matthew 16:18).

    8 Messiah - God the Son?
    
    The Messiah is called God in several passages: Isaiah 7:14 (Emmanuel means 
    "God With Us"  ), Isaiah 11:1, and Isaiah 9:6.  The ancient rabbis 
    associated all of these passages with the one and only Messiah.  Several 
    times, Isaiah also tells us under divine inspiration that God stands alone 
    and that there is no one else like Him.  Isaiah uses the term *El Gibbor*
    14 different times.  The JPS translates it as God 12 times, Lord once, 
    and *Pele-joez-El gibbor-abi-ad-sar-shalom* in Isaiah 9:5 (1917 edition).  
    The Targum of Isaiah indicates that this is the Messiah, and since this is 
    a clear reference to God, the Messiah is obviously some sort of physical 
    manifestation of God!

    In Jeremiah 23:6, the Messiah is called the "LORD, Our Righteousness," 
    using God's Holy Name (tetragrammaton - *YHWH*).  The ancient rabbis wrote 
    in a number of documents that this was the Messiah including the Talmud 
    Babha Bathra 75b and the Midrash on Psalm 21.  Zechariah 14:3-4 uses *YHWH*
    again to say He will manifest Himself as a physical being and step on the 
    Mount of Olives to wage war against the nations.  In Genesis 32:24-30,
    Jacob says, "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is 
    preserved."  We also know that nobody can see God and live (Exodus 
    33:18-20), so obviously God took on the form of a man.  In Genesis 18:1-4, 
    we again see that God appeared to Abraham.  Genesis 3:8 records God 
    walking in the Garden of Eden.  
    
    Early in the Tanakh, God commands us to worship no other god but Him 
    (Deuteronomy 8:19).  However, in Daniel 7:13-14 we are given a glimpse of 
    God's throne room in heaven.  Here and in Zechariah 9:9 we see the Messiah 
    (Son of Man) being worshiped by all people, nations, and languages.  Both 
    of these passages are Messianic according to the Talmud, Sanhedrin 98a.  
    The verb here "to serve" is the Aramaic word *pelach* which means to 
    worship in its fullest sense.  In Daniel 3:16-17, Shadrach, Meshach, and
    Abed-Nego were thrown in the fiery furnace because they would not *pelach*  
    the false gods of Babylon.  In Daniel 3:28, Nebuchadnezzar says that the 
    three Hebrews will not *pelach* any god but their own God.  Daniel 7:27 
    says that that all will *pelach* or worship the Messiah.

    If everyone on Earth is worshiping the Messiah, who is left to serve the 
    Most High God?  Has God through Daniel contradicted Himself?  No, it is 
    clear from the ancient rabbis that in some supernatural way, Messiah is a 
    physical, spiritual, and literal manifestation of the eternal God.
    
    In the Septuagint version of Deuteronomy 32:41-43 there is a sentence left 
    out of the JPS Tanakh.  In reference to the Messiah, it says,  "Rejoice, 
    ye heavens, with him, and let the angels of God worship him."  This 
    omitted phrase is also in the Dead Sea Scroll fragment of Deuteronomy 32.  
    Remember, the same book tells us that only God is to be worshiped!

    How can this be?  There are several other clues into the nature of God in 
    the Tanakh.  Deuteronomy 6:4 declares God is One, but the Hebrew word used 
    is *echad* for "one in nature" not *ychad* for the number one. *Echad* is 
    also used in Genesis 2:24, 26:10, and Numbers 13:23 to describe a compound 
    unity.  In Genesis 1, *Elohim* is used for the word God and is a compound 
    unity noun. In Genesis 1:26, God says "Let Us make man in Our image..." 
    further showing His *Echad* nature.  God couldn't be talking to angels
    because man is not made in the image of angels and nowhere in scripture 
    are angels creating anything.  In Ecclesiastes 12:1 and Isaiah 54:5, the 
    Creator is referred to in the plural in the Hebrew.  Finally, Zechariah 
    14:3-4 says God, using *YHWH*, will manifest Himself in time and space in 
    a body with feet and stand on the Mount of Olives.  Psalm 110 records the 
    eternal God referring to the Messiah as Lord.  Job 33:4, Psalm 139:7, and
    Isaiah 63:10 all refer to the Holy Spirit as God. Clearly, Messiah is God 
    the Son and part of God's triune (*echad*) nature.  This is the tripartite 
    image in man: body, soul, and spirit.

    10 Bibliography

          � Eastman, Mark, M.D. and Chuck Smith,   The Search for Messiah.
            The Word for Today and Joy Publishing, 1996.

          � Jewish Publication Society.   Tanakh - The Holy Scriptures.
            Philadelphia: JPS, 1985.
    
          � McDowell, Josh,  Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Volume 2.
            San Bernadino: Here's Life Publishers, 1992.

          � Wise, Michael and James Tabor,   Biblical Archaeology Review.
            November/December 1992.

	Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
	forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall
	not be forgiven unto men.

	Matthew 12:31

	In the context of the Bible, you can only blaspheme God.
	The Holy Ghost is God.

	TonyC
	

re .123

;	Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be
;	forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall
;	not be forgiven unto men.

;	Matthew 12:31

;	In the context of the Bible, you can only blaspheme God.
;	The Holy Ghost is God.

	Tony,

	In verse 32 Jesus gives an example, "And whosoever speaketh a word
	against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever 
	speaketh against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven him, neither
	in this world, neither in the world to come." KJV.

	Following your logic to it's conclusion one would have to deduce
	that the "Son of man" is not God. 

	Phil.

RE:    <<< Note 219.124 by RDGENG::YERKESS "bring me sunshine in your smile" >>>

	Greetings, Phil, in Jesus' name.

	First let me ask your forgiveness for any hostility or sarcasm I
	expressed against you in the past.  I pray that I will be able to
	observe Psalm 1:1, "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the
	counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor
	sitteth in the seat of the scornful."                       ^^^
	^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        If you examine Matthew 12:32, you will see that Jesus places those
        speaking against Him in the same context as those speaking against
        the Holy Ghost.  Not only that, but in 12:31, He says that all
        manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men. Following
        your logic to its conclusion, one would have to deduce that God is
        not God, against whom all other manner of sin and blasphemy is
        directed.

        Dear Phil, you must strive to understand, under the guidance of the
        Holy Ghost, what the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is and why the
        blasphemy against the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven and why
        blasphemy against God the Father and God the Son shall be forgiven.

        I earnestly pray for you that you take the following Scripture to
        heart.

		Knowing this first, that no prophecy of this book is of any
		private interpretation.  For the prophecy came not in old
		time by the will of man:  but holy men of God spake as they
		were moved by the Holy Ghost.  - 2nd Pter 1:20-21

                But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in
                you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the
                same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth,
                and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall
                abide in him. - 1st John 2:27

	God's peace to you,
		TonyC