Conference yukon::christian_v7

We just got a new dog last week.  Her name is Abby.  Now we have two
dogs, a black one (Tucker-husky/black lab mix) and a blond one (Abby-
sable pure-bred collie).  No matter which color your clothes are, the 
hair from one or the other of them shows up well :-}.  

Abby is so quiet we have to encourage her to be rowdy and come join the 
fun.  She's picked out a little cubby hole for herself in the family
room, and unless you encourage her, she doesn't budge from it much.
The two dogs do romp together when we take them outside first thing in 
the morning and sometimes at other times, and they both enjoy going on
walks.

Our dogs have the run of the hallway, kitchen, family room, and screened-in 
porch.  They are sometimes allowed into the art room upstairs, but that 
is by invitation only.  The bedrooms, dining room, and living room are 
off-limits all the time.  We do have to gate areas when we're not at home, 
as they will sometimes sneak into forbidden territory when no one is around.
Otherwise, they mind the boundries well.

Their dependency on us reminds me of how much more we are dependent on God.
And caring for them helps me to realize what it means that God has put us 
in charge over the earth, what an awesome responsibility and also what a joy !

Leslie  

>         <<< Note 14.5325 by KAHALA::JOHNSON_L "Leslie Ann Johnson" >>>
>                               -< Tucker & Abby >-

>Their dependency on us reminds me of how much more we are dependent on God.
>And caring for them helps me to realize what it means that God has put us 
>in charge over the earth, what an awesome responsibility and also what a joy !

    Good point.

    I think of another point regarding pets.  And that is their love for
    their owners.  They give no consideration at all for any of the owner's
    attributes, e.g. fat, skinny, ugly, bald, black, brown, yellow,
    _fill_in_the_blank_.  They love us in spite of ourselves.  It's too bad
    we can't be more like our pets when it comes to our relationships with
    others in this world.  How many times have we shyed away from a
    relationship with someone because of one of their attributes?  What a
    shame.  We have probaly blown an opportunity to enjoy/learn from an
    individual many times.  I know that I am guilty as charged.

    Ron

    218.1 and 218.2 were moved from chit-chat to start the flow of
    discussion.
    
    Nancy
    co-mod Christian
    

>.2 

Sunday evening church was about to begin and in walks a biker with tattoos,
an bandana head cover, jeans, etc.  Of course, I remembered the verses about
being no respector of persons, walked up, introduced myself, then went
back to clue a few of my friends as to our guest.  "His name is Dick,"
said I with a knowing glance that said, "introduce yourselves and make him
feel welcome."

During the first half of the service, I played my trombone (which I'm
beginning to enjoy now that the rust is coming off), and Dick had placed 
himself prominently near the front.  Later, I walked around and asked if
he minded whether I sat with him.  And so we sat together for the rest
of the service.  (My wife, who was sitting with her visiting parents
understood.)

After the service, I turned to Dick and asked, "So, Dick, where have you
been and where are you going?"  He started to respond but was interrupted
by several people welcoming him to our service.

That was lesson number one: following through on a concept you hear and assent
to in Sunday School about not paying attention to how a person is dressed:
or other attributes.  Doing it is a different thing, requiring action 
against your [initial] emotion.  (I say initial because God will change
your initial emotion to compassion.)

Lesson number two was equally interesting.  From the bits and peices of
the ensuing conversation, Dick belongs a Christian bikers assocation,
which is separate from the CMA (Christian Motorcylclist Association)
but nonetheless does pretty much the same thing.  He offered to come 
and speak (to teens, etc) and leaked out some of his agenda.  He likes
being different (expressing his individuality) and it seemed to *me*
(opinion) that Dick was there to contrast, and maybe to expose some
prejudices.  Instead, he was welcomed as he was.  He also declaimed
the idea of denominations (another expression of his liberty and 
individuality) in what seemed to be a rehearsed set of lines.  "Well,
I like where it says in 1 Corinthians, 'I follow Paul, I follow Appollos'."
But Dick got agreement from these Nazarenes (denominationals) that we are 
all to follow Christ.  I left wondering if Dick came in with the idea
of "opening the eyes" of the cloistered and ingrown.  But rather than 
be insulted, I shrugged and thought to myself that the Lord will use
Dick on the road, and those with the suits and ties, the Lord will use
elsewhere... we each have our jobs and ministries to which we must attend.
I wonder if Dick knows what (and where) his responsibilities really are.
I pray the Lord will bless his ministry and that He will speak to Dick
about hidden agendas.  And in doing so, may the Lord do also with me.

Mark

 I always think of Hebrews 13:1-2 when I hear of instances such as .5



 I recall a church I attended in Phoenix where a man similar in appearance
 popped into a Sunday evening service..he was well received and seemed to 
 enjoy the fellowship..we never saw him again though.




 Jim

    I have a very interesting relationship developing with a man who is
    unsaved.  He claims to be open about things and says he enjoys
    diversity and the differences I bring to our relationship.  For a
    while, he allowed me to relish in my love for God and from God, but the
    relationship took a sudden turn.  We got into a discussion about
    abortion and he is pro-choice.  He couldn't understand why I consider
    abortion murder and how could I believe that a "brainless" glob could
    be considered life.
    
    Now, I went to Psalms 139 and began to read how David stated that God
    had covered him in the womb before he was formed.  To summarize, the
    conversation ended in an impasse, with him very frustrated that I would
    not see how wrong I was.
    
    Then we have a conversation last night which really throws some
    wrenches into the relationship.  I am accused because of being a
    Christian as being a nuisance with my ever-so-ready religious point of
    view.  He said that Christians are received as those who *have to
    convert* others and therefore are rejected as intrusive and beligerant
    beings.
    
    He wanted to know why we fell we *have* to convert and why we cannot
    except that fact that God is everywhere and in everything?  When I
    explained to him about the Bible, then immediately the Bible is
    attacked as a "fairytale" that has never been proven to be correct. 
    He also has a very strong Jewish friend who of course has him
    questioning the deity of Christ, but that's another discussion.
    
    So, when all was said and done and I had listened fully to the
    accusations of the shallow attitude of my Christianity, I asked him why
    is it so hard for him to understand and value my difference?  
    
    You see all along, he has been saying that he does and that he doesn't 
    want to change me and yet I just listened to 30 minutes of what was 
    *wrong* with me.  I also was told that I was wasting my life being a 
    secretary for I hadn't near tapped into my mental abilities.  That I was 
    an extremely intelligent woman who could be making a difference and
    leaving a larger mark in the world.
    
    Well, I sorta sat up straight and was feeling rather puffed up at this
    unexpected comment in the midst of criticism and then as clear as a
    bell, it hit me.  As old a book as Proverbs is, it is so modern and so
    current in its reflection of today's attitude towards knowledge.
    
    As I was feeling rather beat up that I wasn't using my potential to be
    more in the work force [feeling ashamed of myself], I realized
    something very important about myself and what God values.  These are
    the words I said to him:
    
    "You are talking to a woman who has known emotional pain at level that
    would destroy most lives.  This person has known what it means to
    survive day-by-day, just survive, exist.  Then she discovered what it
    meant to be alive and love living and have joy so deep that nothing can
    take it away, not even more pain.  There are people who have explored
    and tapped into their mental abilities who will never know the joy I
    experience.  You may consider my life shallow, but I believe I
    understand the deeper meaning of life.  I also believe the impact that
    I have in the lives of young girls, whose live currently in
    survival mode is not shallow in any way when God uses me to help them
    know His love so intimately, that they too, can know joy that
    will surround them no matter what their surroundings are like.  If you
    define this as shallow, then we will forever be at odds."
    
    I also asked the question, "Why is it that just because I won't change
    my belief, you consider me closed-minded?  You see, it may grieve my
    Spirit to do so, but I can accept that you will not believe as I do,
    and let you be."
    
    His response was that I had thoroughly reprimanded him and rightfully
    so.  The lingering flavor in my mouth though, is that I am perceived as
    being lesser than, because of my Christianity.
    
    Nancy
    

    RE: .7
    
    Nancy,
    
    I can relate. I have several friends from my college days that are not
    Christians, and I know that I am viewed as "lesser than because of my
    Christianity."  I'm also viewed as wasting my potential because I've 
    chosen to work as a secretary. It's very difficult not to become defensive 
    and attempt to justify my decisions and beliefs. Bottom line though, we're 
    not to seek the approval and praise of men, (and as one who is a pleaser, 
    I know how difficult this is - I struggle with it daily), we're simply to 
    believe in Jesus and obey Him. As far as working far below one's potential,
    it's the clash of the two worlds, wherein is the measure of one's value. 
    For a great many who do not know God, it's in how much they accomplish and 
    how they are esteemed by men. For the believer, our value resides in God. 
    Only He knows the contribution we make, and He's the only one that counts. 
    
    Rebecca      
    

    Hi Rebecca,
    
    The thing that keeps sticking out in my mind, is the incredible worship
    of the intellect.  Over in "another conference", the answer to
    everything is education, education, education.  As early as the first
    missionaries into Africa, we've been spouting reading, riting and
    rithmatic and yet, our country today is plagued with atrocities.
    
    The one thing that is neglected is our *relationship* to God.  And
    those of us who are "trying" [ain't arrived] are thought of as
    BELIGERANT and INTRUSIVE as we share our struggling faith.
    
    Incredibly, though, you struck on something very important and that is
    determining before we set out, just who are we serving and to whom do
    we want to be pleasing.
    
    I was told that I would continually be ridiculed and rejected as a
    result of my choice to serve the God of Abraham by this male friend of
    mine and that my life would never reach its full potential as a result.
    
    I'm sorry but that really struck chord with me... a sour note to be
    exact.  The pompousity [sp] of that attitude is again one of "superior
    intellect".  
    
    I confess I know not much about world events, but I know intimately my
    inner being which affords me the ability to risk rejection from those
    who cannot or will not accept her spirituality.
    
    I suppose knowing the political upheaval in Bosnia may add to my
    citzenship of this country, but it won't change the hearts of the girls
    in my Sunday School Class.
    
    Nancy

	Nancy,

	I listened to Matthew 15 and 16 this morning.  These verses came
	to mind when reading your note:

	16:24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone wants to come
	with me, he must forget himself, carry his cross, and follow me.
	16:25 For whoever wants to save his own life will lose it; but whoever
	loses his life for my sake will find it.
	16:26 Will a person gain anything if he wins the whole world but loses
	his life?  Of course not!  There is nothing he can give to regain his
	life.

	Our potential comes from God; without Him we are nothing.  My
	level of success in the business world won't amount to a hill-o-beans
	when I get to Heaven.

	
	To be honest, I'm not sure what your friend sees as the connection
	between your chosen profession and your Christianity.  It more
	seems that he's got two separate agendas - your Christianity and
	your profession.

	I find it interesting that he feels he can make suggestions to you
	about the type of work you should do, for what he feels is for your
	ultimate good, yet believes you should not discuss your Christianity
	with him, which we know in the end would be for his good.

	(I'm not surprised, I just find it interesting).

	For what it's worth, when I met Jamie, we spent our first "date"
	talking about God and religion.  He mostly listened to me.  Sometime
	in the first year, I told him my INTELLECTUAL, LOGICAL beliefs about
	the bible (I mean, they were so sensible, *who* could argue???) about
	the bible being folklore, handed down from person to person, each
	adding and taking away along the way.  I also told him I didn't believe
	in the devil.  He gently tried to straighten me out, but also wanted
	to tread lightly, to keep the door open for further discussion, but
	he was visibly shaken (due to concern for my soul).  It wasn't until 
	our pre-marital counseling, when I got saved, that it was explained to me
	in terms I understood and easily accepted that the Bible was 100% 
	God's word - unadulterated!
	That was some 2 years after our bible conversation, though of course
	by then, I knew what I was getting myself into with this Born-again guy!

	Karen

    >	To be honest, I'm not sure what your friend sees as the connection
    >	between your chosen profession and your Christianity.  It more
    >	seems that he's got two separate agendas - your Christianity and
    >	your profession.
    
    Remember that Nancy and her friend are operating currently under two
    sets of reality.  Oh, they see the same things with their eyes, but
    one's mind has been renewed, and not new-aged.
    
    This person sees potential in Nancy, and rightly so.  But from his
    frame of reference, Christianity squanders it.  It really isn't a
    matter of being a Secretary or a Superstar, but the factors that go
    into each to make you what you are.  God does give us choices to make
    and we may aspire to "higher" positions - but remember the frame of
    reference.
    
    How many times have you heard "what God thinks is important and what
    man thinks is important are two different things?"  Too many times that
    it begins to become trite.  Yet it is one of those bedrock clich�s 
    thart is true throughout the ages.  That Nancy is a secretary is a
    reflection of her human[istic] potential being affected by her
    "tunnel-visioned spirituality."
    
    "...then we will forever be at odds."  Nancy, I expect that this was
    enough to back him off from his position because he really doesn't want
    to jeopardize the relationship (that he's jockeying to define on as
    many of his terms as he can).  It may be that God will use you to help
    show the one who thinks he sees that he does not.  But be careful not
    to be yoked (and I don't mean the relationship you have now - I mean
    something deeper, as in commitment) with an unbeliever (or a
    pretender) or this prediction will become a daily nightmare.  If God
    can open his eyes and soften his heart, (as Karen testifies), then it
    is something different.  But, be without-a-doubt-whatsoever sure.
    
    Mark

�    I was told that I would continually be ridiculed and rejected as a
�    result of my choice to serve the God of Abraham by this male friend of
�    mine and that my life would never reach its full potential as a result.
    
Meanwhile, you know that no-one will ever reach their full potential 
without that same God of Abraham.  Even in this world.  In fact, without 
Him, they have missed the whole point of life, so cannot even expect to 
know the right direction to look in to find their purpose.  They are
significantly incapable of directing their own lives, and to cover up, they
have to convince yuo that *your* direction must be wrong  - because it
invalidates theirs.  It's the odour of life, and odour of death (2
Corinthians 2:15).  For those outside the lion's cage, the bars mean life
and protection.  For those *in*side, they mean terror and death.  To point
out the bars, and warn them is taken as unkind, meaningless and rude,
because they want to stay there. 

 "...I have given them Your Word, and the world has hated them, for they are 
  not of the world any more than I am of the world.  My prayer is not that 
  You would take them out of the world but thaat you protect them from the 
  evil one.  They are not of the world, even as I am not of it...."
							John 17:14-16

 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated Me first.  If you 
  belonged to the world, it would love you as its own.  As it is, you do not 
  belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world.  That is why 
  the world hates you.  Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is 
  greater than his master'.  If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you 
  also.  If they obeyed My teaching, they will obey yours also.  They will 
  treat you that way because of My Name, for they do not know the One Who 
  sent Me......"
							John 15:18-21

'Being a Christian' isn't designed to be an external success story,
otherwise people would be cashing in on it for self-love, instead of for
love of our LORD.  We show our love - our valuation of Him - by standing 
for Him when no-one else does.  Not 'easy', but the only thing which will 
satisfy the eternal void in people's hearts, of Ecclesiastes 3:11

In many things, even the world dismisses logic and reason rather than 
accept God's laws.  We see that in evolution, and in government, so that 
the world would opt for self-inflicted damage, rather than run the danger 
of being thought 'Christian'.  The 7th day is a key point that springs to 
mind, but I don't wamt to rat-hole...

Oh yes - Our treasure is in heaven.

						God bless
								Andrew

    
    
    	NO JESUS - NO PEACE
    
    	KNOW JESUS - KNOW PEACE
    
    
    	What greater knowledge can one have?
    
    	All is well with my soul,
    
    
    	Cynthia    :)

    Another Tough Question
    
    In my short travels in the notes conference, I've met many people.  In
    the time I've been in notes, men have written to me, saying that they
    are attracted to me.  Now none of them ever *saw* me and therefore,
    they were attracted only to the electronic personality [which is the
    same in person, but takes on a new dimension in the flesh].
    
    I've had this discussion several times... are looks important?  How
    much value to place on a person's exterior?
    
    I can tell you that for me, while I've met men that I don't find
    attractive on the outside, when I come to know them internally, I can
    find myself very attracted regardless of the exterior.
    
    My experience with men is that it is different.
    
    What is your experience (s) ?

    Everyone knows what they like and don't like regarding looks.  I
    believe it is sometimes possible to be attracted to someone who does
    not fall within our own personal guidelines...but...such people that
    are willing to go beyond those boundaries are few and far between. 
    Plus, it takes a while, in my opinion, to know someone to the extent
    that attraction could happen without looks being a part of it.  Most
    humans look for that "little spark" to happen the first time they see 
    someone, and if it isn't there, they hang it up.
    
    Now, as to how we SHOULD be, that's another matter.  Of course, we
    should look beyond the physical, to the spiritual, emotional, etc.  But
    a lot of people (including me) let the physical attraction come first
    and THEN look towards the inward man/woman.  I'm severly attracted to
    my husband's looks; now that I've come to love him for his sense of
    humor, his appreciation of me, his kindness to my son, his care for our
    home, I would love him if he lost his looks.  But, I was definitely
    attracted to him physically the second time I saw him.  The first time
    was in high school; I dated him even though he was not my type.  He was
    just a normal, nice guy.  The second time I saw him, almost 13 years
    later, you could have knocked me over with a sledge hammer!  And I
    already knew he was nice!!!  Double blessing.  
    
    Back to the topic.  If you find someone who is more interested in the
    spiritually, intellectual part of you...and the same for you...and
    there is great potential for "equally yoking" I'd say go for it.
    
      

    Fran,
    
    I agree that looks *are* important.  And if you are married to the hunk
    of your dreams, Amen!  I was married to the hunk of my dreams, it
    didn't get me too very far.  My ex is kind, considerate and extremely
    handsome.  His bod is naturally built, the kind men would die for and
    he's got a charisma that would knock your socks off... but 
    
    and it's that but... that opened my eyes to not being attracted to
    someone externally first... oh I see a nice looking man, and it catches
    my attention for a moment, but that's it ... a moment.  Then I look
    farther towards the inward character.
    
    I'm saying that I've known men who on the external do not appeal to me,
    but *when* I get to know them... I find them very desirable.
    
    What got me thinking about this is a topic in *another* conference.
    
    So, we, as Christians, are motivated by the world and place a high
    value on external attributes????
    
    Remember, in days of old, it was possible to be hooked up with someone 
    you've never met.  
    
    Nancy

    
    
    >So, we, as Christians, are motivated by the world and place a high
    > value on external attributes????
         
     I would have to disagree with this statment. We as Christians are NOT
    motivated by the world.   You cannot make this correlation simply
    because we - as humans - are physically attracted by the opposite sex.
    I think Fran summed it up quite well in her previous reply.
    
    Yak

    re: .18
    
    I think you read a little more into Nancy's note than was there.  From
    a neutral standpoint, I didn't see any comparison made between her
    ex-husband and your husband, nor did the note seem self-rightious..IMO.
    
    I'm not trying to defend anyone, but I fell your strong response was
    unwarranted.
    
    
    I agree than we, as humans, are swayed by looks just as non-Christians
    are.  (I'm guilty.)  Unfortunately, by following our eyes, we may be
    missing that special person God is trying to place in our lives (for
    single folks, like me).  
    
    The key word here is 'human'.
    
    -steve

    
     There is nothing to feel guilty about in thinking someone is
    physically attractive, we are told that we are not to be unequally
    yoked, if physical attraction gets in the way of this commandment then
    we are in dangerous waters.  
    
    Belive me folks, if my wife - whom I love with a passion - was not
    physically attractive to me first, she probably would not be my wife.
    
     Is there something wrong with that statment? I dont think so.  The
    problem is if the physical attraction precedes the scriptural basis for
    a christian relationship.  
    
    > Please don't take this as an attack...it's not.
    
     I don't think Fran would have.
    
     Yak

    Fran,
    
    Steve was right-on about my note... I don't understand why it was taken
    so personal...
    
    And if you noticed I said I AGREE, that looks are important... but to
    what degree is my question...
    
    The key point to what you stated is that your husband is not only a
    hunk to you but he's NICE.
    
    I don't understand the attitude you've displayed towards me... and
    quite frankly I'm rather shocked.
    
    I also find it rather upsetting that this can be discussed with such
    ease in a non-christian conference, but not in here. hmmmmmmm
    
    Nancy
    

    >So, we, as Christians, are motivated by the world and place a high
    > value on external attributes????
    
    >I would have to disagree with this statment. We as Christians are
    >NOT motivated by the world.   You cannot make this correlation simply
    >because we - as humans - are physically attracted by the opposite
    >sex. I think Fran summed it up quite well in her previous reply.
                                                                     
    First, let me state that I got the syntax wrong [which I do quite
    frequently] in this supposed statement, it should have read:
    
    So, *are* we, as Christians, motivated by the world and place a high
    value on external attributes????
    
    It was not meant to be a statement.  The reason I state the "world" as
    an influence is rather simple... TV programs, commercials,
    billboard, magazines, newspaper advertisements and MOVIES put *VALUE*
    on the external.
    
    This may cut to the quick for some, but I'm not directing this at
    ANYBODY I KNOW in here... so please SEE THIS DISCLAIMER before you
    react.
    
    Have you ever heard of the "token princess wife" syndrome.  The man who
    marries the woman who *looks* the part in order to project an image. 
    He uses the woman to validate his ego in *front* of his peers.
    
    I submit to you that this goes on in day-to-day relationships between
    people... when I see someone rejected because they don't *look* an
    image... I feel nauseous [sp].
    
    It goes back to .2 of this notes string.  Dogs love us even if we have
    the uglies schnozzer on  earth.. but we humans reject ugliness as
    though the poor individual has something to do with it.
    
    The purpose of starting this was to get a discussion about our values
    in relationships and how we *do* allow the world's standards to creep
    in.
    
    I AGREE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH MARRYING TO THE PERSON YOU THINK IS
    A HUNKARAMA!!! That is *not* the purpose of this conversation.  But
    more to explore what we *should* be valuing as Christians.
    
    I can't believe I have to explain this to this detail...
    
    Nancy
    

    re: .20
    
    I agree with you.
    
    Hopefully, I'll be as lucky as you and find someone who I have a strong
    attraction for *and* is a great person on the inside.  
    
    I guess I'll have to wait and see what God throws my way.  8^)
    
    -steve

    For those of you who read my earlier response, I apologize for my
    public display of anger.  It was not right to air my feelings in that
    way in a public forum.
    
    Fran

Go away early on Friday and miss a humdinger.  Oh, well.  I hope your
weekends were all a bit better.  I got toasted and had a few minor mishaps,
but all in all came away without serious complications.

.14>the electronic personality [which is the
.14>same in person, but takes on a new dimension in the flesh].
    
Nancy, I have met you in person and what you think is the same, isn't.
And I know that to be true of myself.  My notes personality is a facet
of me: two dimensional in some ways, yet instead of length and width,
because it involves the thoughts, it is more like length and depth.

Secondly, it is not the physical attributes that changes the perception
(I won't say for the better or for the worse; just changes - make more
complete) of someone you have previously understood two-dimensionally.
(I should ask, rhetorically, how many people have altered their perception 
of me after meeting me "in the flesh".  I have bee [un]fortunate enough
to see some of the "before" and "after" images that have been projected 
along with my name.)  The reason for this is because the depth has been
received (the thoughts of the mind onto electronic paper) before the
width, and time and space, too.

When we converse with others, verbal communication makes up a significant
proportion of how we understand another, yet, it is probably not a major
proportion.  I'd be willing to bet that 75-80% of what people have taken
as "sarcastic writing" from me during my years in this conference, was 
never intended by me, nor thought of on second thought as sarcastic.  
The people who read this missed the [not-so-]subtle clues that face to face 
communication can give.

Further, we cannot always read when someone has been having a bad week.
Words on the screen too often remind me of a 70's song: "Codachrome,
makes you think all the world's a sunny day."  Not too many people take
pictures in the rain.  Know what I mean?  We have come to expect that
everyone is on cruise control.

It is not altogether unthinkable that attraction occurs without the physical,
but fades upon taking in the whole picture (which includes MUCH more than
just the physical).  To me, it shows that we are also guilty of projecting
shallowness onto others, whom we think are no longer attracted simply because
I have a pimple, a bald spot, larger than life love handles, a nose whose truth 
could put Pinocchio's lies to shame.  And it also shows the insecurities
within ourselves ("She doesn't like me because of my pimple, bald spot, ...").

For those of you with diamonds, you know what a facet is.  It is a face that
is presented to view.  Sometimes you can see several facets at once.  We
are complex beings with many facets to our character.  We display many 
differences in ourselves when dealing with different situations.

(And if I may take one more tangent: what makes people think that God is 
any less complex in the facets of His character and traits?  He is holy
and perfect; but he is not an automaton without feelings, etc.)

To sum, attraction SHOULD take on new dimensions, even after 14 years 
of marriage.

MM

    Mark,
    
    That was a great writing and it has much value.  I agree that
    attraction should take on a whole new depth of meaning even after 14
    years.  And as far as the notes personality thing is concerned that was
    merely an example not intended to be the crutch of this discussion.
    
    I go to a church that has an outreach ministry to handicapped persons. 
    These handicapped persons are not always the best groomed [if you know
    what I mean] and oftimes when they shake your hand, it takes near an
    half an hour to have them let go.  Most of the time, there is only a
    core 5 or 6 people who show an interest in them.
    
    Look at Beauty and the Beast... it amazes me that in almost every
    beauty/ugly story... the woman is/must always be the beauty and the man
    is the ugly [:-) :-) :-)].... Gee how far would a love story go where
    it's the other way around... [hmmm Whoopi Goldberg does comes to mind]...
    :-)
    
    Nancy
    

    
    
    >To sum, attraction SHOULD take on new dimensions, even after 14 years
    
      Just wanted to emphasize this point, it is a very good point that
    causes, in my opinion, many marriages to fail. That is the lack of
    realizing that there are more dimensions than just the physical. My
    wife today is more attractive to me now than she was when we were first
    married.  Her inner beauty shines through and adorns her outer beauty. 
    
    Yak

  >  And as far as the notes personality thing is concerned that was
  >  merely an example not intended to be the crutch of this discussion.

I know it was not the crux of the matter.  However, in dealing with the 
crux of the matter, you wondered why it was [that people treated you
differently after having met you, since you thought of yourself as the
same person in and out of notes/e-mail/telephone conversations].

And the point I made was "dimension."  

Btw, it struck me only this morning who it is I'd placed your telephone
voice with before meeting you: Sally Field.  Yep, the Flying Nun.
I couldn't quite place the voice before, but it shows me that in the absence
of dimension, we naturally, subconsciously, and sometimes unwillingly
fill these things in.  (BTW, folks.  If you haven't seen Nancy in person
- photos help but still lack - let's not start filling in the dimensional 
void with good *or* bad images.  And btw, also, I don't have a bald
spot, or pimples (at the moment), or a large nose, but I do have love
handles.)  (And I don't find Whoopi Goldberg unattractive, either.)

As for loving the unlovely, it is something we each have to confront in
our spiritual walks.  Compassion overrides trained and sometimes instinctual
responses of distaste (or even revulsion) when compassion is the filter
through which you see the person.  The Beauty and the Beast is a classic 
example in literature of not "judging a book by its cover" as the prince
did, which brought on his curse that was also lifted only after he learned
that "well worn books are often well read books,'

Mark

re .14, Nancy .... Paul had just this problem, sis...

in 2 Corinthians 10:10

	"..some say "His letters are weighty and forceful, but in person 
	 he is unimpressive and his speaking amounts to nothing."

What a person is in spirit may not be reflected in their physical 
appearance.  At my church, we have a great-hearted man, who is a feature of 
the church.  He's sure to welcome anyone new, as well as remembering 
everyone else, missing those who are away, etc...   He's often been 
mentioned in testimonies as someone who's welcoming witness made people 
aware of their relationship to the LORD's people.  And he's barely over 5' 
tall.  Now I don't notice physical height much.  I look more at 
personality.  So when people in testimonies started talking about ;this 
little man who welcomed them', I was completely stumped to know who they 
meant.  At first.

We're used to judging by outward appearences.  If you look up to someone
physicallly, they're seen as having a psychological advantage.  But it
doesn't mean they're any better a person really.  Even physically. 
Remember Goliath ... ;-) 

And in that context, God had to say to Samuel "Man looks at the outward 
appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."  1 Samuel 16:7

It depends what you're looking for in a person.  If you're looking to
impress superficially, then go for outward appearneces every time - that's
if you want to impress with looks.  If you want to impress by logic and 
argument, then go for the turbo-brained number-cruncher (which might not 
look so hunkish from outside).  In that sort of area, character and skills 
show more in what we choose to show of ourselves here.  'When we're in the 
mood'.  In real life, you don't always get to choose which mood you meet!
If appearence is important you need to think  why anmd how before yuo 
commit...

If you want someone who exhibits a quality you feel you are lacking in,
look for that.  But ultimately, if you want a relationship which will last,
look for the LORD.  Only He can open up the right doors, because only He 
knows not only what we are now, but also how we are going to develop 
throughout our lives.  Remember, He's prepared works in advance for us to 
do, geared towards moulding us to be what He's got for us for eternity....  
Ephesians 2:11, Philippians 1:6.

Look for the LORD, and when you aren't looking anywhere else, He can *give*
you the perfect match.  But be prepared for it to be *Him* alone ;-).  Or 
for someone to pray through...


   ==================================================================

In another sense, looks *are* important.  Because 'what we are' show in our 
faces.  Our character is generally visible there to some extent.  Remember 
how Moses' face shone, in Exodus 34?  Something like that, I guess...

I've been to missionary conventions, where there are people who have given 
up their lives to serve the LORD in places where they live in tough 
circumstances.  People who are thrown on the LORD for safety, and daily 
necessities.  You can see it in their faces.  Try to look like that, and 
you're bound to blow it.  It only adds up to pain.  Concentrate on looking 
at Him, and don't worry about what you like like, and you might begin to 
get there...  Cosmetics are only skin deep.  His beauty is the sort that
comes from inside and shines out. 

I wonder what Samson's face looked like.  The character it displayed.  The 
strengths and weaknesses....

Notable we're not offered any description of Jesus' face by character.  
Apart from the fragments in Isaiah 53...  That's the one I *am* looking 
forward to seeing, of course....  And what He has written nourishes me 
continually, even - perhaps 'because' - He put it into other people's 
hearts what to write...


								Andrew

    SALLY FIELDS.... EEEK...  :-)
    
    You poor guy, seeing me walk thru the door must have been a SHOCK!
    
    :-) :-) :-) :-)
    
    Nancy

>    Look at Beauty and the Beast... it amazes me that in almost every
>    beauty/ugly story... the woman is/must always be the beauty and the man
>    is the ugly [:-) :-) :-)].... Gee how far would a love story go where
>    it's the other way around... [hmmm Whoopi Goldberg does comes to mind]...
>    :-)
    
    Like the song says, "If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
    Marry yourself an ugly wife."

>    SALLY FIELDS.... EEEK...  :-)
>    
>    You poor guy, seeing me walk thru the door must have been a SHOCK!

Not shock, as in displeasure: surprise as in something not even close to
the "dimensional filling" I had done.  Where there's a vacuum, it will 
be filled.

And you'll remember that you came in with about four or five new faces
to me and so I was playing What's My Line in the few seconds I was given
to guess which is the real Nancy Morales.  I'm sure Kitty Carlyles (sp) was
surprised on a few occasions when she thought she could pick out the
real persons from the imposters.

You know, this gets me to thinking.  Some time ago, I commented on someone
I thought was attractive.  I made the comment to my wife.  She responded
by asking whether I thought she was unattractive because the person I
commented about as being attractive had some strikingly different features
than my wife.  Joy has long brouwn hair, blue eye, and very attractive to
me.  The person about whom I made the comment may have been in a TV show,
or some other forgettable place.  It took me some time (to my utter 
astonishment) to convince my wife that I could find both strinkingly
different people attractive, and certainly not lose any attractiveness
to my wife as a result.  

Attraction is not a binary thing.  There are many facets, and several dimensions
that go into attractiveness and unattractiveness.  And it is a changeable thing,
too, with different levels of [un]attraction.

MM

As we grow together, our characters develop together.  Nowhere is this
closer than in marriage.  Depending on how committed a couple are to each
other, they can grow together or grow apart.  If we're growing towards the
LORD, we should inevitably be growing together.  Like the spokes of a
wheel, going towards the hub.  The outward appearance fades in its own
immportance, compared to the what it signifies beneath - the character with
which one has grown to identify.  I find that the better I know a person,
the harder I find it to describe them, because physical features and quirks
are so insignificant compared to the character underneath I have learnt to
know.  And there is such a spectrum of character in any individual that to 
'label' it is too exclusive...

I was preaching on 1 Corinthians 13:7 Sunday morning, at a place I hadn't 
been to before.  Visiting was a couple who were married there 55 years 
before (to the day).  They say people grow to look like their pets (or 
choose pets that look like them to start with).  I believe that in a good 
marriage there's often a certain similarity between the couple...  
Certyainly in our relationship with the LORD, we should be learning to 
look like Him, as in 1 John 3:2...

Yak's comment:
�    Her inner beauty shines through and adorns her outer beauty. 

 - says it all.  And it shines to Yak most because he knows her best.


								Andrew

    
    Interestingly, my five year old son notices truly, physically  gorgeous 
    women and comments on them, saying their pretty.  His response is not
    conditioned yet by anything I don't think.
    
    Elaine keeps telling him that "pretty is as pretty does".  He says
    "what's that mean?".  We then are able to tell him that true beauty is
    much more an internal quality than an external quality.
    
    My late, sweet grandmother (a devout Christian all of her life) spoke
    of my grandfather's handsomeness as long as I can remember (even when
    she was in her 80s).  She'd say "God save me from an ugly man".  It was
    cute and she meant it.  
    
    I'm very happy to have a beautiful wife both physically and
    spriritually.  But then I had a model in my Mother and I basically want
    a woman alot like my Mother as my wife.
    
    jeff

>Yak's comment:
>�    Her inner beauty shines through and adorns her outer beauty. 
>
> - says it all.  And it shines to Yak most because he knows her best.


"...shines to Yak most because he knows her best."

Boy, if he'd said that about *MY* wife I'd have my dukes up thinking
he doesn't think my wife's attractive to him, and is only attractive
because I know her.  Of course, I'd have Andrew in a fight anyway, if
he protested and said that he *did* find my wife attractive, being the
jealous sort that I can be.

:-) :-)

 >But then I had a model in my Mother and I basically want
 >a woman alot like my Mother as my wife.

"I want a girl, just like the girl that married dear old dad."

Hmm, Oedipus may have something to say here.  

My mother's a lovely woman.  She's also an only child married to a
first-born quasi-only child (get some birth order literature if you
are confused by now).  I did see in my grandmother what I thought
was more the submissive wife and I admit that I wanted that more.
Mom's model wasn't bad, but it was different.  Leona (my grandma)
was in the middle of the pack (of 11 children).  Russell (my grandpa_
was towards the end of 15 children.  FWIW.

    My 6 year old son responds to physical beauty.... and my 10 year old
    son responds to physical beauty... but they both respond differently. 
    My 10 year old looks at personality... girls who are too bossy no
    matter how pretty he tosses aside.
    
    Clayton is more Mr. Libido.  This kid I worry about.  When he was 4
    years old he couldn't whistle, so when he saw a pretty girl he'd say
    "Wheee tee doo tah" that was his audible whistle.  :-)
    
    Nancy

    
    Hey Nancy,
    
    don't get us started on "bossy girls", okay?  ;)
    
    jeff

My boy's been pretty bossy lately, come to think of it.

Of course, you might get lashed for suggesting anything about 
bossy girls.  "It's just another paternalistic endeavor to 
keep women subserviant to the male of society."

That may be in odd cases, but I think it is more like that people
don't cotton well to bossy people.

MM

	On a humorous note:

	Last night, I commented on that a TV character was unattractive.

	Jamie said, "Don't judge a book by it's cover."

	My reply ?

	"Why not, I judged you and I did ok!"

	;-)

    -1
    
    hee hee hee hee  
    
    Now, did he take that as a compliment? :-)
    
    
    

	Yup, he laughed and gave me a kiss!

So, Karen, what kind of books do you like to read?  Are you into sci-fi,
or fantasy?  Sure not romance - men are notoriously bad novels once you
get past the cover.

(Of course, I say "notorious" because it is only a sterotype.  So 
how about Jamie, eh?  Spill the beans.)

	Ironically, mysteries.

	And no, he isn't one.

	;-)

	

>	Ironically, mysteries.
>
>	And no, he isn't one.

Ah, but you might be surprised! 8^o %^D

	Twue.

    I have a queston that I'd like to get feedback on. Now this note is
    dealing with Relational Struggles. Now what I am dealing with isn't a
    "struggle", in a way it might be, but more of a challange,
    growing/learning experiance.  This does deal with relationships. I am
    courting (okay, going out, seeing, dating,...) this one young lady. I'm
    31, never been married and she's 38, divorced for about 4 years now and
    has 2 blessed daughters. One is 11 and the other is 14. We meet a few
    months back and been friends. Yes, we went out and did things together,
    but in friendship. We both cared to make sure that we have a good
    friendship establihed, that Christ is within our friendship before we
    ever started dating. So as the last few weeks now, I have the
    oppertunity to court her (and in a way, courting her kids as well. For
    her and her kids as one, even though seperate. Somewhat like the
    Trinity).  Now the kids dad every other Saturday takes them out. He
    isn't a Christian. Now Normarada (I'll use Normarada as my girlfriend's
    name)  oldest, 14, is going thru the Jr Higher stage of her life. She
    goes to church, sometimes, and goes back and forth with God. The
    youngest, 11, she enjoys going to church, knows some scripture and
    don't mind talking about the Lord (if you bring it up 1st).  
      Now, I have dated a few Ladies in the past that Had younger kid(s),
    but this is the first time courting someone who has older kids. Now the
    needs, disires, attitudes, wants are different of younger ones
    (understandable). We get along okay and go places (which they seem to
    enjoy), do things at home (have a barbique, talk, board games, watch
    videos, play, ect), spend quality time.   I'd like to hear from others
    of their opinions of if you have ben in this type of relationship. Like
    to learn, also get ideas from your comments/stories. This includes also
    on how interact better with the kids (including buiding them up and
    things to do with them).    Now I 
    know that the BEST that I can do is to continue my walk with Christ so
    that the things that I do directly/indi, verbally/inver, can be shared,
    passed to them (can't give a dollar if you don't have a dollar, true?).
      
    2nd Question. " Normarada " is struggling with how to go about rearing
    up her oldest, 14, with Christ. She will only go to church -IF- it is
    fun and/or in the mood. Now yes, the Word (that'addiction talk for the
    Bible) shares with us that we are to raise up a child the way he should
    go, and when he is old he shall not depart from it. Also That the parent(s)
    are acountable to God for their families spiritual being. Normarada
    doesn't care to force 14 to go to church every week, read the Word at
    home, mem scriptures, ect. (look what happens 'sometimes' to PK's). But
    on the flip side, Normarada doesn't care for 14 be without Christ and
    have HIS values, principles, love, attributes, fellowship engrafting in
    her. Any ideas, comments, experiances are welcomed (like to hear...even
    if you are reading this note 1, 2 months from now).
     		    	     	            Your "Bro" in Christ,
    			                       ~  Richard  ~
                                              

Hi Richard,

My own 'kids' are bigger'n me now (aged 18-23), and I've never been in the 
sort of courting context you describe.  It sounds ultra-delicate.  But I'd 
like to say yuor approach sounds the right balance, not to force kids to 
behave as if they were something they aren't, yet trying to ensure that 
they are aware of Who Jesus is, and what He can mean in their lives, at 
least by example.  Relating to them as people - sharing, playing, providing 
... is a first essential.  Sounds like 'Normarada' has it right there with 
the 14-yr.  Sometimes the heart has to ache seeing them make their own 
mistakes so that they learn...  The mistakes we have to prevent for their own 
safety so often have to be learned more gently later for themselves.  Above 
all, we can only offer them the LORD by example and teaching; we can't 
'make' them enter salvation; much as we long to, it would be of no value... 
The relationship has to be between each one and the LORD.  No parents in 
between....

I just wanted to say thanks... and prayers are on hand ....

							Andrew (PK)

    The punctuation in the next note is really poor, but I just typed it in
    quickly and thought about punctuation at the end of the writing.
    
    For anyone new to this file and doesn't know my testimony background
    associated with this next note, please write me offline and I will send
    it to you.  It's a matter of public record anyway in the previous
    version of Christian.  
    
    Briefly, though I was sexually abused by my father and so was my older
    half-sister.  I was put in a foster home from age 13-16 by my mother,
    after having been declared incorrigible by the State Juvenile court. 
    My mother was confronted about the sexual abuse 5 years ago by my
    sister.  
    
    
    

I called my Mom this morning to wish her a a happy mother's day and to 
catch up on the family happenings.  Mom, began to talk about my father and 
stated that he was a good man.  Now, my Mom knows that my father sexually 
molested me and this statement wasn't correct.  My father had some good 
qualities, but to say he was a good man was taking it too far.

I told my Mom that he wasn't a good man.  She argued that he was.  I said 
Mom he molested me and my sister.  He did not molest your sister, was her 
response, that he tried but my sister said no.  Well, that made him a good 
man didn't it?

Next thing you know the floodgate opened... I began telling her that at 36 
years of age, I still don't even know who I am.  When I was 16 my father 
told me that I wasn't his daughter, and then just weeks ago my grandmother 
[his mother] told me that I wasn't a Bradshaw.  That my mother had a 
boyfriend and everyone believes that I was that man's daughter.  I said 
Mom, who am I?  

Her response was that if I believed what my grandmother said, then maybe 
she wasn't my mother either.  I responded, maybe not, but that this was 
getting borderline ridiculous.  If there was a possibility that I was 
someone else's I hoped she was would be honest with me.  

I said, Mom, look all my life I've been from pillar to post, I had no place 
to call home, except with my grandmother Bradshaw and now she was saying 
that I wasn't her granddaughter, she just felt sorry for this little child 
with no mother to take care of her.  I said Mom, I feel all alone.  I was 
alone as a child too.

She began to cry with anger, and responded,whose fault is that?  

Who's fault is what Mom, that I was alone with no real home as a kid?  

That's right she said you just couldn't get along with me.

Mom, I was a kid, I was only 8 years old when I came to live with you.  
Look I said I'm tired of being called the incorrigible, bad, rebellious 
child and being blamed for all that went wrong in my childhood. I was just 
a kid and thank God I had the sense once I got older to know what was 
happening was wrong.

Mom, do you remember telling me when I was 18 that you tried to get an 
abortion when you found out you were pregnant with me.  Remember telling me 
that you tied a belt around your stomach and that you starved yourself in 
hopes that I would die? Remember saying that I was just too stubborn and 
had a strong will to live.?  Mom, I've never forgotten that.  Never, I've 
carried around in my heart for 18 years that my Mom wanted me dead.  I 
won't carry it anymore.  Truth hurts but the truth is that you were more 
interested in your boyfriends then in your children. Truth is that you let 
a man who had pornography everywhere in his home  keep two of your 
daughters in that abode.  Truth is you never had time for me.  Truth is 
Scott N.. [my brother's father] molested me as well.  Truth is that I 
didn't trust you and knew you didn't love me as a child understands love.

I will not have you continue spreading lies about me as a child.  Delude 
yourself all you want, but Mom, you were the parent, not I.  I REACTED to 
my environment and was full of hate and anger.  But the hate, anger and 
resentment wasn't placed there by me.  It was placed there by you and my 
father.

She began saying that she was at fault for everything.  I told her No, she 
wasn't and if she took that approach in this conversation, she was wrong.  
Mom, you are not to blame for everything, you are 50% responsible for what 
happened tome as a child, my father has the other 50%.  Own what you own 
and let my father own what he owns.  True healing can never take place if 
blame is shifted from person to person or if too much blame is owned by one 
person.

Mom, all I want from you is an acknowledgment that my childhood was rough 
and to quit saying that I was some bad, incorrigible child.  Quite blaming 
me for what yours and my father's failings.  

She said that she was near hysteria and that she couldn't take it anymore 
and that she was hanging up the phone.  I said fine, but before you hang up 
you need to know that I don't blame you for all that went wrong in my 
childhood.  If you hang up this phone carrying that load, that is your 
choice.

I said goodbye.

I went into the bathroom looked in the mirror and cried... 10 minutes past.  
The phone rang, "Nancy, I just couldn't leave it like that.  I want you to 
know that I love you and I wish I was there to hold you so you could feel 
it deep within your heart and I'm sorry."

"Mom, you called back, you called back.  That's all I wanted was for you to 
call back.  I'm sorry to, I had no intention of talking about any of this 
stuff when I called you.  Mom I love you and I forgive you.  Please just 
from now on don't say my father was good and that I was bad.  Please.

Okay, honey, I just want you know that I do love you very much.  

I love you too, Mom.
    

    wow...

Nancy,

Rejoicing with you in the healing of relationships with your mother...  
Or at least, the beginning of healing.

� at 36 years of age, I still don't even know who I am.

Nancy, your Father is the King of kings.  That's all that matters.  He's
the One from whom you're inheriting your character, your future, your peace
of mind, and all the good things of this life, as well the life to come.
His love for you is complete.  He is the good Man to fulfil all the
failings of us lesser men, and to open the way for us to shed the guilt of 
even our own weaknesses...  To Him, you are all-important.  He knows the 
details of your physical genes, and the needs of your heart.  Not only is 
He moulding you into an eternal delight, but he's even using you in the 
moulding of others.  With Him in our hearts, we don't need to worry about 
our ancestry through the first Adam...

You know all that, but it's for real, now.  It's more real, permanant, 
enduring, than any human relationship.  Not knowing my physical parents has 
never concerned me, because He was always so much more important.  I'll be 
praying for that revelation to fill your heart with joy and peace....

On my calendar for today is the verse:
  "The LORD is full of compassion and mercy."  James 5:11

							God bless
								Andrew

Halleluja!!!

I shared just a tiny bit of your rags-to-riches story just in reading it.  As
your story unfolded it tore at me.  When you were left crying at the mirror,
I just ached inside to be able to stand next to you there, hug you and assure
you of God's Love.  But then!!  Light broke through!  Hallelujah!

With fair frequency, notes in this file bring tears to my eyes, but it's not
often that I'm sobbing in my chair.  Praise the Lord for shining His light in
dark places!

Paul

What Andrew said Nancy.  I hope that someday, all the questions are lovely
answered for you by God who know your whole history and cares so much for you.

Leslie

    As you all know about my parental struggles... let me ask you a
    question,  how would you go about obeying the Bible in honoring your
    mother and father when they don't honor you?
    
    Help, please... What do you do when a parent disowns you?  What do you
    do when parents reject you?  How do you honor?

What is honor?  When you know what it is, you can do it.

Honor does not require a person deserving it, but it is a whole lot easier
when they do.  I'm not saying I have a complete handle on honor, especially
since I have it easy in this regard.  I'll borrow some appropriate words from
the dictionary that may shed light on the type of honor you can give:
  a gesture of deferrence; social courtesies or civilities extended by
  a host; respect and esteem shown to another.  HONOR may apply to the 
  recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of 
  such recgonition....

Let me stop there.  What right does one have to be respected?  Some people
don't deserve respect.

Another definition to help complete the picture is "to confer honor on"

We have discussed many times about loving one's enemies, and how love is
an action and not (primarily) an emotion.  Honor is also an action and not
(primarily) what you feel someone deserves (whether the feeling is justified
or not).  Why is it that we are to pray for the authorities over us?

One last thing:

>    As you all know about my parental struggles... let me ask you a
>    question,  how would you go about obeying the Bible in honoring your
>    mother and father when they don't honor you?

The honoring of parents is the relationship of the child to the parent.
There are injunctions for the parent to follow in regards to the child,
but honor is not necessarily one of them (unless I have missed something).

Mark

    Perhaps not very helpful; but I would say honour them according to the
    opportunities that they give you instead of trying to find ways to
    honour them that conflict with their desires...
    
    But also make sure your kids know that you are having trouble with it;
    they may come up with something.  If they have any contact with their
    grandparents, what you say to the kids might even get to your parents,
    and have much more effect than if you had said it straight.
    
    James

    Thanks for the replies...  
    
    

218.55 from Nancy :
.55� How would you go about obeying the Bible in honoring your mother and 
.55� father when they don't honor you?
    
.55� Help, please... What do you do when a parent disowns you?  What do you do 
.55� when parents reject you?  How do you honor?

218.56 from Mark M :
.56� The honoring of parents is the relationship of the child to the parent.
Nice point, Mark.

Honour is credit given to someone regardless of whether they merit it or
not. Honour is what God gave us, in His infinite grace, by dying for us
'while we were yet sinners' (Romans 5:8).  His example suffered infinitely
for us, that we might benefit.  So, Nancy, your privilege is to show grace 
by honouring your parents, by not retaliating 'in kind'.  Your heart is 
always an open door for them to walk back in again, even though it is 
scarred from their early times there.  You can bear it for their love.  For 
them, in particular, you can find forgiveness 'seventy times seven', even 
though they (because of their particular position of responsibility and 
closeness to you emotionally) have done the greatest damage for which to 
be forgiven.

Rmember, Nancy, they didn't know the love of the LORD Jesus' arms around 
them; His pierced hands bleeding for them, the infinitely lovely Fatherhood 
of God.

Honour lies in how we treat someone - the ultimate would be to not even
refer to past hurts; not to let it exist even in your mind, because these
people need your help in a way only you can provide. 

Honour also lies in how we react to someone or refer to them - not just 
the words, but the open heart showing through.  No tightening of the lips, 
or hardening of the voice.  And if the words choke a little as they are 
expressed, just ignore it.  They are the only parents you'll ever have 
(however dear a mentor may take you under their wing).  You are not 
responsible to God for their behaviour to you.  Only for what you are able 
to return to them.  He asks for honour, in this instance.

I beg to differ with James' second point.  Second hand reports can wound
and grieve.  Rarely heal.  If you can't say something to someone's face
(whether because it hurts you too much, or because it would give offense,
or because you just feel too embarrassed to), don't say it behind their
back.  And certainly not in a way designed to possibly reach them... 

Your kids are old enough to see the truth and be aware.  Even if they 
weren't, it's better to play down character defamation of someone close to 
you.  Where they ask, they can be told that things aren't all you would 
longing for them to be in the relationship, but if they hear you sever a 
close relationship because of offense, they are left with the impression of 
conditional love.

If one of my kids ended up in prison for horrendous crimes, it would hurt
me immeasurably.  But I wouldn't stop loving them.  That would kill me.
It's because of the continuation of my love that it would hurt so much.  I
don't grieve nearly so much for people I do not know who are in prison.  Is 
that callous...?  Yet Hebrews 13:3 reminds us to "Remember those in 
prison...".  

Love bestows the power to hurt, because it gives the object of that love 
entr�e into the heart.  When at last that love is realised (if ever), the 
loved one will tiptoe more tenderly through the halls of privilege where 
they have such power to wound...

So if your lads know that your love will never be removed (as God's will
not be removed from us), it will be their desire and joy to enrich that
love by their response; not to harm the source of that love, but to bring
delight to your heart.  

I think I'm wandering from the point, though...

							God bless
								Andrew

    God did not put any "qualifiers", regarding honoring your parents only
    if they didn't hurt you or abuse you or if they were worthy. He just
    said honor them.  
    
    Webster's says, "n. 1.special esteem or respect;reverence:the honor shown 
    to him. 2.a. Reputation; good name b. source or cause of credit:was an 
    honor to the profession.  3.a. Glory or recognition;distinction: the place 
    of honor at the table. ... 6. The dignity accorded to position...
    
    Certainly you have been doing "2.a." protecting their good name by your
    own good reputation.  The very way that you act in this Notesfile is
    ample evidence of "their good name".  I will guess that "3.a." and "6"
    are also something that you do.  I expect that it is the primary
    definition which is giving you trouble.  "Special esteem or respect..."
    for someone that doesn't respect you...?
    
    First, forgive them - let the past be really gone.  This is for Nancy,
    because we know that you will be the beneficiary of this act.  Then, do
    the little things of recognizing them as your parents, observing
    Mother's and Father's Days, even if very superficial.  And, remember
    every day that they gave you this entire world and all that is here to
    YOU, so that you may create examples of the love and joy that living in
    our Lord Jesus Christ brings to us all.
    
    Next, recognize your responsibility to teach your boys to honor their
    father and mother, which is best done by example.  If you do not accept
    this responsibility then you are ignoring another aspect of our Lord's
    teaching.  This may be where you find the easiest road, since the
    importance of teaching your children makes the task much easier to
    bear.
    
    Finally, recognize that all your Brothers and Sisters in the Lord, will
    pray for you and help you in fulfilling this important obligation.
    
    In His love,
    
    Daryl
    

Thanks Nancy for starting this topic

Chele

    yer welcome Chele! :-)
    
    Somehow I believe we all struggle.. :-(

    Nancy,

    my Sister.

    I'm in catch-up mode tonight - just flicking at random through some of
    the 'old' topics - and this one 'caught my eye'.

    Oh, my. Words can not express how I feel. I read your earlier entries -
    and was saddend. I read .50 - and I wept.

    I wept for the pain, I wept for your lost childhood, I wept for you. I
    wept for _joy_! at your mother calling back.

    In .14 you raised the idea of the great 'Cosmetic Fixation' - are we as
    Christians to judge people by their external looks?

    I have not met you face to face, nor even seen a photograph of you
    (although I pray to rectify both these one day). I can categorically
    state that you are one of the most beautiful people I have ever had the
    privilege of meeting.

    Your beauty shines from within - from the Holy Spirit in your heart.
    How do I know this? From this conference, from others. From our chats
    in irc, from our (too few, too brief) phone calls.

    Nancy, your potential is in Jesus Christ. You are a 'secretary' - then
    be the *best* darned secretary you can be! And from what I know about
    you, your boss relies on _you_ to get the work *done*! God Bless her.

    And God Bless you.

    In His Love,

		Harry

    Nancy,
    
    I just read note .50, it sounded like my wife talking. My wife has been
    running away all her life. I hope some day she will seek GOD and stop
    running.
                                           
    God Bless, Don