Conference yukon::christian_v7

    >Apparently some Christians believe that Christians can be inhabited by
        demons.
    
    Just to start htis off, I am not an expert on demon posession, but I
    believe that scripture is pretty clear that the above statement is not
    true.
    
    Yak

Hmmm....

Well, I'll offer up my ignorance on the subject.

It is my belief that demons cannot inhabit the Christian, that permission
must be given (yielding to temptation being tactit approval).  I am also
reminded of the following Scripture when Jesus was accused of being 
possessed by Beelzebub (Lord of the Flies, Satan):

Matthew 12:25  And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every
kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or
house divided against itself shall not stand:
 26  And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall
then his kingdom stand?

Mark 3:24  And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot
stand.
 25  And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
 26  And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand,
but hath an end.

Luke 11:17  But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom
divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a
house falleth.
 18  If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand?
because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub.

but you say:

>It is my belief that demons cannot inhabit the Christian, that permission
>must be given (yielding to temptation being tactit approval).

Given that ALL christians yield to temptation at one time or another, it seems
that your second clause invalidates the first.  If yielding to temptation is
giving tacit approval for demonization, then Christians CAN be inhabited by
demons.

Paul

    I don't believe *true* born again christians can be possesed.  I
    do believe that we can be influenced and oppressed however.  Influenced
    by circumstances and our lack of understanding, walk, or confession
    of sin.  Oppressed as in being attacked {verbally, physically,
    psychologically}.
    
    Below is my feeble attempt to put up some scriptures as to why I
    believe this to be so.  My words are preceded by an "*"
    
Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of 
    truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye 
    believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 *  True believers are sealed by the holy Spirit

2Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the 
     Spirit in our hearts.

 * The Spirit is in our hearts or inner man.  

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are 
       sealed unto the day of redemption.

  * The Spirit can be greived by us but doesn't leave us.  We are
  *   a possesion of God.


  * Jesus prayer in the garden reveals what his intend was for those
  * who believe and our relationship with him.

  John 17
  -------

  6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou
   gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest
   them me; and they have kept thy word.
  7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast
   given me are of thee.
  8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest
    me; and they have received them, and have known surely
    that I came out form thee, and they have believed that thou
    didst send me.
  9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them
    which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am
    glorified in them.

  
  * We are His and not satans or the demons.


  16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

  *  We are not of the world when accepting Him but in the
  *   world.

  17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
  18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also
     sent them into the world.
  23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect
     in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,
     and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

  *  Jesus is in us.  Since Jesus cast out demons and satan while
  *  physically on the earth as a man there is surely no room for
  *  satan or the demons in us if Christ and the Spirit are already
  *  there through salvation.

   

re .2

Those verses are referring to charges of demonic possession of God the
Son himself, not of the rest of us Christians who are not God.

/john

    I don't recall the book title(s), but a Christian author by the name of
    Mark Bubeck (sp?) has written a number of good (as far as I've heard)
    books on the subject of demons.
    
    Mark L.

    From what I've read in Malichi Martin's book, "Hostage To The Devil,"
    demonic possession doesn't happen automatically, but the demon processes
    the person through a process over a period of time. Demonic possession
    occurs when the person surrenders their will to the demon. Our free
    will is one of the greatest gifts God has given us and is the only
    thing Satan wants from us. 


    Jim

    >Those verses are referring to charges of demonic possession of God the
    >Son himself, not of the rest of us Christians who are not God.
     
     What are you saying John, do you believe that a christian can be
    posessed by demons??
    
    Yak

>    >Those verses are referring to charges of demonic possession of God the
>    >Son himself, not of the rest of us Christians who are not God.
>     
>    What are you saying John, do you believe that a Christian can be
>    posessed by demons??

What are you saying, Dan, do you believe that a Christian cannot be
weakened by sin and fall under the influence of the evil one?

/john

    
    
     I am saying a christian who is walking in the spirit cannot be
    posessed by demons and satan has no claim or power over him.
    
    yak

    
    
    Demon posession does not "just happen", it is an open invitation by an
    individual to be controlled by demonic powers.  Merely falling into sin
    does not invite demon posession.
    
    yak

    Yak,
    
    I have to disagree with you.  Demonic posession doesn't have to happen
    by invitation.  What about the child that Jesus cast the demon out of. 
    Do you believe that a child invited in demonic control?
    Can you scripturally back up posession by invitation only?  Granted, 
    I agree that this is a way, but it's not exclusive.
    
    Matthew 17 [KJV]
     14  And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a
         certain man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
     15  Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed:
         for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
     
    16  And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
    
     18  And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the
         child was cured from that very hour.
     
    I don't believe that this child invited demonic control.
    
    Nancy

>     I am saying a christian who is walking in the spirit cannot be
>    posessed by demons and satan has no claim or power over him.

Yet satan and his demons will be constantly attacking and looking for
a chance to get control.

Is "control" possession?  Just what is "possession"?

    In regards to Christians and demon possession....
    
    Can anyone define demon possession?
                      demon oppression?
                      
    
    JimGle you made some great points back there.  Can you expand a little
    here?
    
    A year ago I'd have taken the stand that Yak is taking that demonic
    posesssion is impossible for the Christian... but I wonder, because
    since then I have witnessed some unexplainable things in Christians and
    I've read MARK BUBECK'S, THE ADVERSARY and compelling, provocative
    comes to mind when I think on that book.
    
    Mark Bubeck who is VERY reputable states that many professing
    Christians have come to him claiming demonic possession.  If you get
    the book, check out page 17.
    
    Nancy

Nancy (.12),
  Would it matter how old the child was?  Would it change the answer
you gave.
  (Mind you, I don't know.  Not a part of my study.)

MM

    It's a good question.  But in this particular instance, I'd say it
    doesn't matter how old the child was.  Jesus cast out demons from the
    maniac in the graveyard, from women, and children.  He gave us examples
    of all kinds of demonic posession, I believe to show the power and
    beguiling of Satan in EVERYONE's life.
    
    No-one is exempt from Satan's oppression or posession.  Anyone wanna
    give a stab at those definitions and then we can establish the rest of
    the dialogue based on that?
    
    Also, there is another topic on Spiritual Warfare, I believe
    these two topics go hand-in-hand.  I may be cross posting somethings
    out of that topic in here. [can't remember if it's in here or in
    _v6]
    
    I've personally been in contact with a CHRISTIAN who has had demons
    exorcised....  Now my question is were the exorcised from within or
    around him?  I dunno, but they were powerful and embedded, if not
    indwelt.
    
    Nancy
    

>     It's a good question.  But in this particular instance, I'd say it
>    doesn't matter how old the child was.

I think it would matter if the child (say 12 years old or so) had been dabbling
in things he knew were prohibited by Mosaic law, such as calling up the dead,
and witchcraft.  We're really talking about culpability, here.

Can someone who is not culpable become possessed?

And I think we do need some definitions, too, because we'll be spinning
our wheels otherwise.

Where does possession leave off and our own stupidity/malevolence come in?
Can we be "demonic" in behavior and attitude without being possessed; that is,
we just plain choose to be crumby and evil?

MM

    RE: Nancy,
    You do ask the tough ones don't you.  I will try to put a definition
    of sorts here for possession and oppression.
    
    First possession.  Luke 8 give a very good account of possesion.
    
     26 And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which
        is over against Galilee.
     27 And when he went forth to land, there met him out of the
        city a certain man, which had devils long time, and ware no
        clothes, neither abode in any house, but in the tombs.
     28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before
        him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee,
        Jesus, thou Son of God most high? I beseech thee, torment me
        not.
     29 (For he had commanded the unclean spirits to come out of
        the man. For oftentimes it had caught him: and he was kept
        bound with chains and in fetters; and he brake the bands, and
        was driven of the devil into the wilderness.)
     30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he
        said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
     31 And they besought him that he would not command them
        to go out into the deep.
     32 And there was there an herd of swine feeding on the
        mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them
        to enter into them. And he suffered them.
     33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the
        swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the
        lake, and were choked.
    
    It starts off with saying that the man had devils and explained what
    this man's behavior was as a result of the devils which was not the
    usual behavior.  He didn't wear clothes, didn't live in a house or 
    shelter, but lived in the tombs.
    
    One of the demons then cried out and spoke to Jesus in v28.  I'm
    going to make an assumption that there was a characteristic in 
    the way the demon presented itself through the man that excluded
    the actual man himself.
    
    Jesus then asked the demon what his name was.  Making a distinction
    between the man and the demon within the man.  Man being defined
    as the body {container of the soul} and the soul of the man {the
    man's emotions, will, personality}.
    
    The demon {not the man} answers Jesus telling Jesus that his name
    is Legion because there many demons were entered into the man. This
    instance was also a case of multiple demon possesion.  Each demon
    would represent one or several of the characteristics displayed
    by the man's behavior {nakedness, homelessness, madness, wildness
    for example}.  So, demons have names.  Other than the name of 
    the man.
    
    In verse 33 the demons leave the man and enter into the herd of
    swine which run into a lake and drown.
    
    Later in verse 38 and 39 the actual man seeks and talks to Jesus.
    Jesus instruct him to tell others what he has done and the man
    obeys.  The man was grateful.  There is no mention that the man
    gets possesed again.  He obeyed Jesus and by his act of wanting
    to be with him in v38 means to me that he accepted and realized
    who Jesus was.
    
    RE: Yak - I'm not sure that a person has to give an open invitation.
        For the unsaved, there is now way to resist the devil for he
        is more powerful the the unsaved.  The saved have Christ and 
        the Spirit with them in the battle.  The unsaved have the devil
        as there spiritual father due to the fallen state of man.
    
    RE: Nancy 
    
    > A year ago I'd have taken the stand that Yak is taking that
    >  demonic posesssion is impossible for the Christian... but I wonder, 
    >  because since then I have witnessed some unexplainable things in 
    >  Christians and I've read MARK BUBECK'S, THE ADVERSARY and compelling, 
    >  provocative comes to mind when I think on that book.
    
    Christians can still be driven by their old sin nature as Paul describes
    so well in Romans 7.  I can relate more and more every day.
    
    V19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I
        would not, that I do.
    
    I know that there are christians who claim to be possesed.  I wonder
    if this is just someone else to blame {satan or demons} than to face
    the sin in their live and repent.  Or, they do not understand that
    even though we are saved, there is still a warring between our fleshly
    self and the new nature that God has given us through Christ.
    
    One final not also in Romans.
    
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors
       through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor
       angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor
       things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to 
       separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    
    That nore any other creature I believe to be even ourselves.  So,
    nothing can seperate us from the love of God, not us, not satan,
    only God.
    
    
    

    Mark...
    
    I *hear* what you are saying and it would be great to hypothesize that
    this is the case, after all it would certainly make "suiting up" take
    on a whole different role, wouldn't it?
    
    Let's get those definitions before we continue further, okay?
    
    Love you,
    Nancy

    Office Edition
    Webster's II New Riverside Dictionary
    
    Oppress v. 1.  To persecute or subjugate by force.  2.  To weigh
    heavily upon.
    
    Possess v. 1.  To have or own (e.g., property).  2.  To have as a
    quality, trait, or skill.  3.  To dominate : control.
    
    Possessed adj.  Controlled by or as if by a supernatural force.
    
    Possession n. 1.a.  The act or fact of possessing.  b.  The state of
    being possessed.  2.  Something owned : property.  3.  Control, as of
    one's emotions or actions.  4.  The state of being dominated, as by an
    evil spirit.  5.  A territory ruled by a foreign power.

    
    Was David posessed when he fell into the sin of adultry?
    
     Let's not be paranoid that when we sin we are open to demon posession.
    
    Falling back into sin is one thing.
    Being demon posessed is yet another.
    
    yak

Did *I* say I was paranoid?  What makes you say that?  Are you saying that
about me, Dan?  I know you are!  You must be!


;-)  (<--- read: not serious, folks)

Is it not true, though, that the more a Christian falls into sin, the more
that Christian is separated from God?  Is separation from God not the result
of sin?

As this separation increases, and sin takes more and more control of the
Christian's life, so that the Christian is no longer leading a Christian
life, and is far separated from God, is it not then possible for the Evil
One to gain control, to possess the Christian?

Is that not what the Evil One wants?  Is not his greatest prize the possession
of the souls of those who would be Christians?

Does the Christian cease to be a Christian once sinfulness has reached a
certain level, the level at which the Christian is in Satan's grasp?

/john

>and is far separated from God, is it not then possible for the Evil
>One to gain control, to possess the Christian?

Here is where I have trouble with the definition of the word "Christian."

Can a person be a follower/imitator of Christ (a Christian) and be separated 
from God?  

A person can be identified with a "Christian" rearing, a "Christian" church,
but really, folks, when a person is possessed, can he or she be called a
Christian at that point?

>Does the Christian cease to be a Christian once sinfulness has reached a
>certain level, the level at which the Christian is in Satan's grasp?

Ask also, at what point did the prodigal son become "dead" to his 
father?

Mulling time.

    
    RE: 216.23 John
    
    >Is it not true, though, that the more a Christian falls into sin, the
    >more that Christian is separated from God?  Is separation from God not 
    >the result of sin?
    
    Christ payed for all the believers sin. When we sin we are out of
    fellowship with God.  When we use 1John 1:9 we can get back into
    that fellowship.  Sin does eternally seperate the unsaved.
    
    >As this separation increases, and sin takes more and more control of
    >the Christian's life, so that the Christian is no longer leading a
    >Christian life, and is far separated from God, is it not then possible 
    >for the Evil One to gain control, to possess the Christian?
    
    Paul explains this very thing in 1 Corinthians, Chapter 5.
    
    I Corinthians:
    
    1 IT is reported commonly that there is fornication among
       you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among
       the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of
       the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord
       Jesus.
       
    If this man does not repent from his evil, he is to be turned
    over to satan for the destruction of the flesh {body} so that
    his sould will be saved.
    
    

    
    >Is it not true, though, that the more a Christian falls into sin, the
    more that Christian is separated from God?  Is separation from God not the
    result of sin?
     
    
    Yes this is true.
    
    >As this separation increases, and sin takes more and more control of
    the Christian's life, so that the Christian is no longer leading a
    Christian life, and is far separated from God, is it not then possible 
    for the Evil One to gain control, to possess the Christian?
     
    To possess the Christian? You are assuming here that the person is
    still a Christian (aka Christ one, as in belonging to Christ) therefore
    the simple answer is No.
    
    >Does the Christian cease to be a Christian once sinfulness has reached
    a certain level, the level at which the Christian is in Satan's grasp?
     
    I will assume here that you mean the Christian is no longer a part of
    the family of God. We can discuss this in great detail, although I
    prefer not to.
    
    
    John, I am only trying to make a distinct comparison between truly
    being pocessed by a demon,  and living a sinful life and thereby "in the
    grasp" of satan because of your eternal state.
    
     I know of many truly sinful people who are not demon posessed.
    
     I also belive the a demon posessed Christian is an oxymoron.
    
    Yak

    Yak,
    
    We have some definitions thrown at us about possession and oppression.
    
    Would you agree that oppression can be just as strong as posession
    without the eternal consequences?
    
    Nancy

    As for a definition or explanation of possesion
    
    When satan, demons, devils inhabit or live in the physical body
    of a person.
    
    A physical analogy {for comparison only} would be and example of 
    when a tape worm would live and grow in the body.  This is another
    living organism.  Left untreated the person will eat and eat and
    eventually starve to death.  
    
    

    Jim,
    
    Can a Christian be *so* demon oppressed that he would need Warfare
    intervention ?
    
    Nancy

Nancy,

>    Can a Christian be *so* demon oppressed that he would need Warfare
>    intervention ?

Based on our off-line conversations, I think that you well know that the 
answer to that question is in the affirmative.

Grateful for having been rescued and redeemed,

Brian

    >Jim,
    >
    >    Can a Christian be *so* demon oppressed that he would need Warfare
    >    intervention ?
    
    I would say yes.  If that christian is just a baby christain still
    on milk {new christian} or has been a christain who has not been
    studying.  There could also be a case were satan feels threatened
    by a believer in what they could do in Christ for God that there
    is an all out attack.
    
    We as fellow christian are commanded to pray and admonish on another.
    When one part of the body hurts the other parts are aware and should
    help.
    
    
    JimGLE
    

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
          -<  ...by Believing, you might have Life more abundantly. >-
================================================================================
Note 42.14                      Spiritual Warfare                       14 of 40
EVMS::GLEASON "The Word of God is living and active" 42 lines   5-MAR-1993 13:15
                                  -< Demons >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
   DEMONS (Gr. DAIMONIA). Evil spirits (Matt 8:16; Luke 10:17, 20; cf. Matt
   17:18 and Mark 9:25). The immaterial and incorporeal nature of both Satan
   and his demon hosts is discussed by Paul (Eph 2:2; 6:12) and John (Rev
   16:14). 
       
   As purely spiritual beings or personalities, demons operate above the laws
   of the natural realm and are invisible and incorporeal. However they may be
   glimpsed (2 Kings 2:11; 6:17). John in apocalyptic vision SAW the awful
   last-day eruption of locust-demons from the abyss (Rev 9:1-12), as well as
   the three hideous frog-like spirits that emanate from the satanic trinity
   (the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet) in the Tribulation to muster
   the world's armies to their predestined doom at Armageddon (16:13-16). 
       
   As spirit personalities, demons have an intellectual nature through which
   they possess superhuman knowledge. Scripture features the shrewdness of
   demons. They know Jesus (Mark 1:24), bow to him (5:6), describe him as "the
   Son of the Most High God" (5:7), entreat him (Luke 8:31), obey him (Matt
   8:16), corrupt sound doctrine (1 Tim 4:1-5), conceal the truth of Christ's
   incarnate deity and sole saviorhood (1 John 4:1-3), and comprehend prophecy
   and their inevitable doom (Matt 8:29). Demons are consulted by spiritistic
   mediums, who allow themselves to get under the control of evil spirits for
   oracular purposes (1 Sam 28:1-25; Acts 16:16), as is seen in both ancient
   and modern spiritism, erroneously called "spiritualism." 
       
   In their moral nature all demons (as fallen angels) are evil and depraved,
   in distinction to the good spirits (the unfallen angels), who are sinless. 
   They affect their victims mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually,
   and are frequently described as "unclean" (Matt 10:1; Mark 1:27; Luke 4:36;
   Acts 8:7; Rev 16:13 KJV; NIV renders "evil"). They cause fleshly uncleanness
   and base sensual gratification (Luke 8:27), and gross carnality and sexual
   sin (2 Tim 3:1-9; Rev 9:20-21). 
       
   Demons possess terrible physical strength, imparting it to the human body
   (Luke 8:29) and binding their victims as with chains and with physical
   defects and deformities (13:11-17) such as blindness (Matt 12:22), insanity
   (Luke 8:26-36), dumbness (Matt 9:32-33), and suicidal mania (Mark 9:22). 
       
   Demons are of two classes-- those who are free, with the earth and the air
   as their abode (Eph 2:2; 6:11-12; Col 1:13), and those who are imprisoned in
   the abyss (Luke 8:31; Rev 9:1-11; 20:1-3). The abyss is only the temporary
   prison; their final end will be the "lake of fire" (Matt 25:41), the eternal
   abode of Satan, demons, and unsaved human beings. 
    

    On to Oppression:
    
    \/
    
    Oppression defined: an attack by demons, demon oppressed/possessed
    persons, and/or satan himself against a saved or unsaved person.  
    The attack could be physical {as in sickness}, mental {bad dreams & 
    visions}, circumstances, just about every aspect of our lives. It could
    be a continual attack or prescence involving the saved but the 
    saved is *NOT* inhabited {possesed}.
    
    /\
    
    The apostle Paul was clearly oppresed.  He had a messenger of satan
    buffeting him.  Buffeting is a rather intense form since the definition
    is to hit or strike against.  There are varying opinions about what
    the manifestation of his thorn in the flesh was so I won't go into
    that {that's a seperate topic}.
    
    He asked the Lord three times to remove what he was going through
    and the response was my grace is sufficient.  This is not to say
    that we will all be going through this, but this type of oppression
    exists.
    
    2Corinthians 12:7-9
    
     7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the
       abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn
       in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should
       be exalted above measure.
    8  For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might
       depart from me.
    9  And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee:
       for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly
       therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power
       of Christ may rest upon me.
    
    
    There was only one hint of a follower of Christ being possesed and
    that was Judas.  This involved a forordained devine plan by God
    towards all of man kind.  I also tend to believe that Judas never
    really accepted Christ for who he was therefore making him unsaved
    and not a christian anyway.
    
    

    Regarding demon possession, as Christians we are temples of the Holy
    Spirit.  Many times, demons are characterized as an unclean spirit.  It
    is my belief that the Holy Spirit and an unclean spirit cannot inhabit
    the same person.  How could an unclean spirit inhabit someone who has
    been washed in the precious blood of Jesus Christ?
    1 John 1:5-7 NIV
    "This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you:  God is
    light; in him there is no darkness at all.  If we claim to have
    fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by
    the truth.  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have
    fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies
    us from all sin."
    
    I agree with Mark M. when he said that being affiliated with the
    Christian faith does not make you a Christian.  I also believe that you
    can fall away from the grace of God, once knowing it.  There are 
    scriptures that testify to this.  One being,
    1 Timothy 4:1 NIV
    "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the
    faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."
    
    As far as people who have claimed to be Christians and be demon
    possessed:
    Matthew 7:18-23 NIV
    A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good
    fruit.  Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown
    into the fire.  Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord', will enter the kingdom of
    heaven, but only he who does the will of my father who is in heaven. 
    Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in
    your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
    miracles?'  Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you.  Away
    from me, you evildoers!'
    
    Regarding demonic possession of children, and from reading the verse, I
    am not sure that the child of the man was a "child" but was his child,
    just as we are children of God, even though we are adults.  However, if
    it was a young child, I would take into account the "sins of the
    father" or generational sin being visited on the children.  This sin is
    dealt with by submitting to the authority of Christ, and his grace;
    which is what happened when the father offered his son's possession up
    to Jesus.
    
    Now, saying all of this, I am in no way a Bible scholar, a Greek,
    Aramaic or any other language expert.  Neither am I a theologian.  As a
    Christian, I know I have authority over demons and while they may
    bother me, I can resist them in the name of Jesus and they will flee. 
    Hallelujah! 
    
    Fran

>    Regarding demon possession, as Christians we are temples of the Holy
>    Spirit.  Many times, demons are characterized as an unclean spirit.  It
>    is my belief that the Holy Spirit and an unclean spirit cannot inhabit
>    the same person.  How could an unclean spirit inhabit someone who has
>    been washed in the precious blood of Jesus Christ?

In the Jewish Temple, in the center was the Holy of Holies.  There the presence
of God dwelt fully.  Then there was the Holy place, into which only the priests
could go.  Then there was the main court, into which Jewish adult men could go.
Further out was the court of the women, where Jewish women and children could
go, and lastly was the court of the Gentiles, where unclean gentiles could go.
Yet all courts are within the Temple walls.  

In the same way, if we have accepted Christ, then the Holy Spirit dwells in us, 
in essence in our "Holy of Holies."  Yet there are still the outer courts,
places which the unclean can inhabit, though not in a sense of possesion, merely
of being present.

My understanding is that the Greek word used for "possession" by demons does not
imply ownership or control in the way that we would think of "possession," but
implies only their presence and attachment.

Can a Christian be "possessed" by demons, meaning be owned or controlled by 
them?  Certainly not.  The Holy of Holies can only be inhabited by the One.  Can
a Christian - a full, spirit-filled, mature Christian, not just a weak baby
Christian - be "inhabited," so to speak, by a demon?  I've seen enough to be 
convinced that they can.

No more time now.

Paul

    
    
    >- be "inhabited," so to speak, by a demon?  I've seen enough to
    >be convinced that they can.
    
    Paul, please explain this more fully.  I would agree that there are
    things which we have not totally surrendered to God, but this does not
    infer demonic "inhabitation."
    
     yak

RE: 216.35

|In the same way, if we have accepted Christ, then the Holy Spirit dwells in us, 
|in essence in our "Holy of Holies."  Yet there are still the outer courts,
|places which the unclean can inhabit, though not in a sense of possesion, merely
|of being present.

    This is a different way of explaining what the two books on deliverance
    were trying to detail.  I got the impression, from the case histories
    mentioned, that the Christians were not totally controlled by the
    demon(s), but had areas of their lives that didn't respond to anything
    other than casting the demon(s) out.  The people involved seemed
    sincere, I don't believe it was just a psychological mind-thing, but a
    true deliverance.  

    Again, according to the books I read, we have a body, a soul and a
    spirit (this I already knew!).  The unsaved person's spirit is dead,
    the Holy Spirit making it alive upon accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and
    Savior.  This still leaves a soul and a body, though, as potential
    habitation places for demons.

    This is against some of my basic beliefs, but I don't have a quickening
    in my spirit as to it being wrong.  In fact, with some of the things
    satan is trying to accomplish in my life (the destruction of my family
    and marriage, for one), I don't want to overlook a powerful spiritual
    dynamic because it doesn't fit my little theological "box".

    In any case, I'm going to speak to my Pastor tonight about it.  I
    attend an Assembly of God church, so we certainly to believe in the
    spiritual realm, the Gifts of the Spirit, the Armor of God, etc.

    Thanks for the thoughts,

    John



      

    In our church, we bind any spirits in the name of Jesus to release
    Christians from demonic oppression.  There can be a dramatic change,
    but I don't relate it to the person being delivered from possession of
    demonic spirits.  Rather, the person has been delivered from demonic
    interferance in their lives.   

>    A physical analogy {for comparison only} would be and example of 
>    when a tape worm would live and grow in the body.  This is another
>    living organism.  Left untreated the person will eat and eat and
>    eventually starve to death.  

A nit, Jim.  You cannot starve to death with a tapeworm.  It is a fallacy.    

>    >- be "inhabited," so to speak, by a demon?  I've seen enough to
>    >be convinced that they can.
>    
>    Paul, please explain this more fully.  

I'm nothing even approaching an authority on this, although I'm going to a four-
day conference on spiritual warfare this October (ending on Halloween!), so I 
may give a trip report then.

One of the problems in this area is that it is largely extra-biblical, a subject
that was discussed at length in another note.  Demonization is not discussed
much in the NT, particularly concerning believers.  But as people have moved
into warfare ministry, they've had to deal with the fact that they have
encountered demonization - some form of *continued* oppression, not just a
fleeting oppression, in people who are very strong believers.  People who have
received the power of the Holy Spirit and who are moving in the gifts of the
Spirit, and are exhibiting the fruit of the spirit.  People who have dedicated
their lives and hearts to the Savior, and who are bringing other souls into His
Kingdom.  It's clear that once we turn our heart to the Savior, our salvation is
assured.  And it's clear that control of our hearts cannot be shared - once it
belongs to the Savior, the powers of darkness cannot share ownership.  Yet how 
does one explain these other occurences?

It's a known psychological fact that there can be places within us - within our
personalities - that are "walled off" from our conscious minds.  Repression of
horrible memories of some terrible trauma is a known occurrence.  Those walled
off memories are shielded, in a sense, from the rest of our personality, yet
they have an effect on us.  An effect we can't measure or quantify, but an
effect none the less.

That shielding - that darkness - may provide a pocket of hidden darkness in
which an evil spirit can withstand the light of Christ in our hearts.  And from
that pocket of darkness, they can have an effect on us.  Not in any way to
directly endanger our salvation, but to subtly divert us from God's path.

It sort of like mice in your house.  You may have mice in your house right now,
without knowing it.  They hide in the dark corners of the house, inside the
walls.  They venture forth to affect the rest of the house only occasionally,
when they dare.  They may eat some of your food, or affect you in other small
ways.  Yet they don't control the house, or have any share in the control of
the house.  They dare not let themselves be seen by the master of the house, for
they cannot abide his presence, nor he theirs.  Yet they still inhabit the 
house.

That's just one possible way of thinking of it.  I've found a very helpful book
to be "The Believer's guide to Spiritual Warfare" by Tom White.  Tom, BTW, is
going to be one of the speakers at the conference I'm going to.  That's one to
put on your prayer list now - we're going to need all the 'prayer cover' we can
get.  The leadership of the organization that is doing the seminar has been
somewhat nervous about it - in attacking Satan directly, we need to be very
careful and be walking in His will as closely as possible.

Paul

    In a conversation with a fellow noter, and while listening yesterday to
    the Christian radio station in Atlanta, it was mentioned that we should
    be careful what attributes we give Satan.  Satan is a created being; as
    a created being, he is limited.  He cannot know all, see all, and be in
    all places at one time.  He has minions doing that for him; and they are
    also created beings - limited.  It was mentioned that too many times
    Christians place Satan on the same level as God - only not good, but
    evil.  He is not on the same level as God; no where near it!  Praise
    the Lord!   

	re.22 (Mark)

	I once tried to attend a Paranoids Anonymous meeting, but no one
would tell me where the meetings were held.

8*)  8*)

    In reading these notes on this subject, I was amazed at some of the
    nievity (sp). As humans we certainly can be inhabited by demons, but
    when we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, our master, etc, we proceed
    to place a "hedge" around us, which is Gods' protection. As a CHRISTIAN
    we do what we can to not "go outside" of that hedge. One we do that we
    will be bitten by a snake (demon) and it will infect us.
    	Demons it should be noted can work outside of us. They can attack
    us with all sorts of things. I am having that problem right now in my
    home that I am proceeding to clean. As long as we allow things that
    give Satan and his demons a legal right to be in our homes or bodies,
    they will try to get in. In most cases they will succeed because of the
    item or sin that gives them legal entry. A Christian can be a
    Christian, but once that Christian "sins", a door is opened. Can a
    Christian have demons, yes. Can a pure Christian have demons, no. A
    pure Christian will have removed all sin from their life. Therefore the
    hedge is built well, and no limbs will go outside of the hedge.
    
    	Let me give you an example:
    
    	Because I am not a pure Christian, I still have to deal with my sin
    nature. I was over at a friends house that is an unbeliever and he was
    showing me some new software on his computer. Before I knew it he had
    brought up some image files, showed me his son, and then a pornographic
    picture that of course suprised me, but because of my sinful nature, I
    looked. I turned away as he proceeded to play out something else but
    the damage was done. I had sinned and at the same time opened me up to
    a demon. It was a demon of pornography (sp) and latter while driving to
    work I knew I had sinned but could not remember the name of pornograhy,
    proberly because the demon was trying to prevent me from doing so. I
    prayed to God to help me remember and then it came to me. I bound the
    demon and then cast it out. Driving at about 45 mph, not a very good
    thing to do but I did not loose control. So can Christian have demons,
    if you sin then yes you can. This is not to say that every sin that you
    do will open you up, but something as simple as looking at a picture on
    a CRT did. There are of course many more sins that would open you up to
    worst demons.
    	Remember that when you clean out the house (you), if you have not
    locked all the doors and windows, the demon who you kicked out, will
    try to get back in with seven even worst demons with it, having seen
    house nice and clean the house is.
    	Sorry for not qouting scripture but some of my ideas you should
    recongnize.
    
    in Jesus 
    Donald

Hi Donald,

Just to expand and, I hope, clarify a little on what you put:

�    when we accept Jesus Christ as our savior, our master, etc, we proceed
�    to place a "hedge" around us, which is Gods' protection. As a CHRISTIAN

I know you meant that *He* places the hedge around us, but it's as well to 
stress it for any who might be confused.

�    Christian, but once that Christian "sins", a door is opened. Can a
�    Christian have demons, yes. Can a pure Christian have demons, no. A

The confusion arises in people's minds because the word 'possessed' is 
used.  No Christian is possessed by a demon; he is possessed by the LORD 
Jesus Christ.  But he still has free will, and the right to choose.  The 
new thing is that he can choose good instead of evil; he has been given 
authority to close those doors you mention.

A Christian can, in a moment of weakness, fail to close a door which should 
be closed, unlike your example.  Then, the next time temptation comes, it 
is harder to resist, and the enemy begins to find a niche.  Even a 
Christian who willfully steps into a sin area can effectively lose control 
like this, but because the LORD is weak, but because he has chosen not to 
listen to the LORD in this area.  He then neds to be awakened and convicted 
about the error, in order to give the LORD authority there, and regain 
strength to clamber out of the mire (as per Christian, in Pilgrim's 
Progress).

If you think only very weak Christians are influenced in this way, bear in
mind that this includes over-eating (Philippians 3:19), careless - vulgar
or obscene - talking (Ephesians 5:4), lying (of any colour), unwholesome
talk, bitterness, rage, anger, character defamation, slander, etc
(Ephesians 4:25, 29, 31), jealousy, selfishness, envy (Galatians 5:19-20),
grumbling (1 Peter 4:9), etc.  And see what company those passages put such
things with! Then theres the things *not* typified by love, in 1
Corinthians 13... 

I would like to make clear also that it's not only Christians who have
backslidden (!) in this way that have such intense blind spots.  Sometimes 
it can take new converts a little while to realise the fullness of the 
victory God has given the in their lives, and the significance of what 
they do and say in certain areas, to realise that these are things which 
should not be in the life of a believer.

The occupation of the house by seven worse demons, when the LORD is not 
given the cleansed area is in Luke 11:24-26.

Verses...
 "Do not let the sun go down while you are angry, and do not give the
  devil a foothold."
						Ephesians 4:27 

The mind is refreshed by rest as we sleep.  But the enemy is on the prowl.  
The mind that relaxes with anger in it is giving a place to the enemy to 
harden and embitter that to bitterness, hatred, and murder (Matthew 
5:21-22).  The instruction in Ephesians 4:27 is effectively : "if you're 
angry, don't let the sun go down."  It's *that* important not to bear a 
grudge overnight which will harden into a personal weakness where God is 
not gicven authority in your life.  If you *have* to remember that grudge, 
yuo have an obligation to stop the sun from setting until it's sorted out.
Otherwise, you have given another step to the enemy.  A medium or long term 
one.  Not an eternal one (that part would be missing in heaven - no grudges 
there!).  But one which is liable to inhibit your spiritual growth.  And 
the longer it lurks inside, the harder and more painful it is to deal with.

 "Submit yourselves, then to God.  Resist the devil and he will flee from
  you."
						James 4:7 

Hey, the devil's on the run.  He's *been* defeated, and is only left around 
here as a training exercise.  He knows it and isn't too pleased (Revelation 
12:12).  But he's only allowed to bite where we stray into his territory.  
Show him the Blood; look at the LORD Jesus, and the enemy sees his doom and 
flees...  But put a foot *outside* the hedge, and he'll have it off if he 
can, as in:

 "Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for 
  someone to devour"
						1 Peter 5:8

...happens to be toothless, though when we've let ourselves be deluded by 
him, the teeth seem sharp enough.  

The text on my calendar today is:
   "Pray continually" 1 Thessaloinians 5:17 (NIV), which seems very relevant!


						God bless
							Andrew

    I agree with one thing that Donald said, we as Christians are naive
    about Satan.
    
    Nancy
    

    This conference is GREAT! Thanks Andrew for the help with the
    scripture.
    
    Donald