Conference yukon::christian_v7

	RE.0

	Hi Andrew,

> What a testimony!  Look back over your life, and He's been there at every 
> turn.  Protecting, nurturing, guiding, etc....

	This is so true. The thing that sticks with me most about Jacob, is the
effect of God's shepherding on him...

	Jacob started out as a self-sufficient, weasle type character. Always
striving to gain something for himself. It was through his God arranged 
environment that God dealt with Jacob's person in such a thorough way. From the
time he stole his brother's birthright blessing (which Esau despised), he was
under God's transforming dealings. He had to flee for his life from Esau,
leave his family (Isaac and Rebecca), live with relatives in a far away land,
get ripped off by his uncle LAban, wrestle with God, then he had all sorts of
problems with his kids, including losing Joseph his favorite son to slave 
traders, then famine in the land, prospect of losing Benjamin. etc. It was
through his circumstances and environment that God transformed Jacob, broke
his natural man to bring him to the point that at the end of life he must lean 
on a staff and declares..."The God Who has been my shepherd all my life to this 
day...". He realized that all his difficult trials were arranged by God. He
embraced all his trials as from the Lord's hand. Jacob therefore represents a 
life that is under the transforming work of God. In this age of grace, God's 
transforming work still continues through our environment and circumstances but 
with the inward working and empowering of the Spirit...

	"And we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting as a mirror
the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory
to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit...
	But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellence 
of the power may be of God and not of us., We are afflicted in every way; 
but not straitened; perplexed but not despairing; Persecuted, but not forsaken;
cast down; but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the putting to
death of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in our body"
	2 Cor 3:18, 4:7-10

	May we have the Light to accept and embrace our environment from the
Lord's hand and to turn to the indwelling Life-giving Spirit (the treasure in
earthen vessels) for the Grace to overcome.

Ace

    Ace - you make it sound as though we're *now* in the "age of Grace" but
    that Jacob wasn't ;-)
    
    Ya'akov (Jacob - supplanter, tricker) would testify of G-d's grace and
    mercy in his life!  He not only saw G-d and lived, but his story is the
    gospel...
    
    Think of it, he wasn't a very "nice" person.  Cheating his brother out
    of his birthright and blessing are only two examples of his less than
    righteous behavior.
    
    He comes to a point where he must come face to face with G-d Himself
    (he named the place Peniel, meaning, the face of G-d, saying he had
    seen G-d and lived - that's grace!).  He must wrestle with G-d and  
    confess to G-d who he was - Ya'akov...a tricker, a deceitful person. 
    His hip is wounded by G-d so that Ya'akov can no longer stand alone on
    his own strength.  G-d changes his name, makes him a new creation
    (sound familiar?).
    
    Which one of us is a "nice" person?  We all must wrestle with G-d, with
    His reality, His holiness, and in that wrestling realize that we can
    not stand on our own.  We must behold Him face to Face and admit to Him
    our shortcomings (remember that Michael Card song that says..."to look
    into your Judge's face and see your Savior there...).  By His grace, He 
    transforms us from our old nature and makes us new creations in Him, 
    created in Messiah for a life of good works prepared for us in advance 
    (Eph. 2:10).
    
    This is just scratching the surface - but what happend to Ya'akov is
    what happens to all believers, and it sure sounds like grace to me!
    
    Steve
    

    Andrew,
    
    Thanks.  To look back and see how He has been our Good Shepherd all
    along...knowing our needs, providing, loving, caring...
    
    Surely goodness and mercy will pursue me all the days of my life, and I
    will dwell in the house of the L-rd forever and ever.
    
    Steve

	re.2

	Esteban - Little disagreement. Jacob did experience, as you say, God's
grace. But that is hardly an *age* of grace. In this age of grace, whomsoever
may freely come and partake.

	Furthermore, the christian has a better portion, that of the indwelling 
Spirit of God. God yet arranges our circumstances, but we possess a treasure in
earthen vessels that Jacob did not, that is, the life giving indwelling Spirit.

	How do you see it?

ace

    re: .4
    
    Ace,
    
    I see G-d's grace being "non-dispensational".
    
    Hodu l'Adonai ki tov, ki l'olam chasdo
    
    Give thanks to the Lord for He is good, His (chesed), grace,
    lovingkindness, mercy endure forever.
    
    What did Jacob do to earn salvation?  Jacob was, essentially, a slug.
    
    How 'bout his grandfather Abraham.  He *believed* G-d, and G-d credited
    it (his trust in Him) to him as righteousness.
    
    There is only one gospel, one salvation - it is not now, wasn't then,
    and never will be by works, but by grace through faith.
    
    That's how I understand the Bible.
    
    As my friend Ray says, "your mileage may vary."  ;-)
    
    Steve

	re.5

	Steve,

	If you were an Israeli living in Joshua's day (for instance),
how could you be saved? Grace or keeping of Moses' law?

ace

    Ace,
    
    The same way Abraham was saved (pre-Torah) (Gen 15:6, see also Romans
    4).
    
    Steve

.7> some of my best friends are dispensationalists
and some of the best dispensationalists are friends
and some dispensationalists are sensationalists
while some are simply sensational....

    But let's dispense with nonsense, I sense you are sensational, friend.

>apologies for muddying Andrew's note...

Me, too.  Baaaa baaaa

	re.7

	Steve,

	If you were an Israeli (pre-incarnation) would you not be required
to keep Moses law?

	Secondly, if you were a Hittite, Hivite, Philistine (pick your favorite
heathen) how could you be saved during Abraham's time, under Moses' law, under 
the New Testament ministry? or is the believer's priesthood the same as the 
Aaronic priesthood? Or is Moses' ministry the same as the New Testament 
ministry? 

	Nay, nay (KJ speak for no way 8*)

	God's particular dealing with mankind varies according to the era. 

ace

    Ace,
    
    Ever since Moses received the Torah, *all* Israelites are required to
    observe the Torah.  But observing Torah never saved anyone - as if to
    say pre-Yeshua, one was saved by works, post-Yeshua, one is saved by
    grace through faith.
    
    Torah observance never brought about salvation, Ace, but it is required
    of the Jewish people (Yeshua said, "Do not think I've come to abolish
    the Torah or the Prophets - I have not come to abolish, but to fulfil).
    
    Yeshua is spoken of as the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the
    world, on the seventh day, G-d rested from *all* His work and said,
    "tov ma'od - it is very good"...
    
    See also in the letter to the Hebrews (chp. 4 I think?) where we are
    told that those who grumbled against G-d in the wilderness were told
    the very same gospel that "we" (in context - those in Yeshua's day who
    were hearing about His Messiahship) received, but it was of no benefit
    to "them" (in context, those who grumbled against G-d) because they did
    not combine the message with *FAITH* - as it says elsewhere in that
    book - for without FAITH it is impossible to please G-d.
    
    Observe the Torah?  Absolutely.  Be saved by that?  Nope.
    
    Faith and faith alone, yesterday, today and forever.
    
    If you'd like to continue this off-line, let's do.  I'm not interested
    in "convincing" you of my viewpoint, nor do I want to cloud up what was
    really a lovely observation by Andrew (as I've already done...).
    
    Steve

	re.12

	Sure. Let's continue offline. I would like to understand your beliefs
on this matter. 

	thanks,
	ace