Conference yukon::christian_v7

 Could someone give me a brief rundown on Bonhoefer?  I'm not sure
I'm familiar with him.






Jim

Deitrich Bonhoeffer lived in Germany in the Nazi period.  He spoke, wrote, and
encouraged people to stand against the Nazi treatment of the Jews, despite the
fact that his denomination (the Lutheran Church) was going along with whatever
Hitler said.  He was perceived by many in the Church hierarchy as a dangerous
fanatic.  He briefly left Germany to come to the United States, but was 
convicted by the Holy Spirit that his place was with his own people, and that
he had effectively left the battlefield.  He returned home after only a month or
two.  He was imprisoned by the Nazis for his views (and for conspiring against
the Nazi regime), and was executed just days before the allies liberated the
prison camp in which he was being held.

Paul

    Jim,

    I am by no means an "authority" on Bonhoeffer, but there are a couple
    of his writings that I have greatly benefited from.  This much I can
    say:  he was a "voice in the wilderness" during the Nazi regime in
    Germany.  He was imprisoned for his "resistance" (I think one of his
    books is entitled "Letters from Prison").  He was eventually executed
    on charges of being party to a plot to assassinate Hitler (there is
    some controversy as to whether he was actually involved or if this was
    something "drummed up" as a means to convict him -- most evidence I
    have seen leans toward his actual involvement with the plot).  One thing
    for sure -- Bonhoeffer was never afraid to speak and stand for what he
    saw (according to God's Word) was right.  He also addressed deeply
    matters of Christian fellowship (in a book "Life Together", a favorite
    of mine).  He also wrote a book "Ethics", which is a deep philosophical
    consideration of "right and wrong" and the Christian perspective of it.

    I was once honored to have in my home a Christian brother named "Hans",
    who was originally from Nepal (a strong Hindu culture).  He was in
    medical school in Germany, and while eating lunch invited one of his
    professors to join him at the table.  The professor was about to chomp
    down on his hamburger when Hans protested "You offend me by eating that
    in my presence."  The professor replied "You offend me by inviting me
    to sit here and then complaining about my food."  Hans became rather
    depressed by this, and went walking.  At one point he paused at the
    railroad station and sat down.  It "so happened" that there was a
    missionary to Nepal waiting on the platform, who suspected by Hans'
    appearance that he was from Nepal and saw that he was rather
    discouraged, and approached him in conversation.  In the brief time the
    missionary challenged Hans to consider Jesus Christ.  He left Hans with
    a gospel of John.  That night Hans was saved as a result of reading the
    gospel.  The next day he sought out the professor and said "I want to
    apologize to you for my offensive behavior yesterday.  And I want you
    to know that I have become a Christian."  [Now, what does all this have
    to do with Bonhoeffer?]  The professor's replied that he, too, was a
    Christian, and went on to explain something of how the Gospel had come
    into his family.  The professor's father had been a guard at a Nazi
    prison camp.  He (the father/guard) was sent to the cell of Bonhoeffer
    to escort him to his execution.  This wasn't the first prisoner he had
    seen facing execution.  Many that he had witnessed in such times were
    in great despair, hopelessness, and bitterness.  But Bonhoeffer stood
    in stark contrast -- he was in perfect peace, and willing submitted to
    being led away.  As he stood awaiting execution, Bonhoeffer was
    praying, asking God for forgiveness, not for himself, but that God
    would be merciful to the country of Germany for all of the sins they
    had/were committing.  This witness so powerfully affected the
    father/guard that he soon after became a Christian.  His family
    (including Hans' professor) also was won for Christ.
    
    Mark L.

Thanks Mark .... one small point -

� Nepal (a strong Hindu culture)
Actually the only country where Hindu is the formally accepted state religion.

							Andrew

 Thanks, Mark and Paul.



 Jim

�  Thanks, Mark and Paul.

Hmmmm.... sounds good.  Glad you two are back together again after all this 
time!   Been on any good journeys together recently?

Uh, and just in case someone wants to move this note somewhere else, where 
does Dobson's theology contrast wih this?

								Andrew

    Thanks... Wow, I had never heard of Bonhoeffer before.  Reading the two
    dissertations really blessed me.
    
    Aleluia!
    
    Nancy

RE:            <<< Note 191.6 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "Thou God seest me" >>>


.Uh, and just in case someone wants to move this note somewhere else, where 
.does Dobson's theology contrast wih this?


 That was my next question..




Jim

    Bonhoeffer also wrote a book called "The Cost Of Discipleship".
    
    Dave

    I don't understand the comments about Dobson.  He used Bonhoeffer as an
    example, of someone who stood by himself, when everyone else was trying
    to rationalize the Nazi regime and its oppostion to Christianity. 
    Dobson pointed out that things are very similar, and that we Christians
    need to take a stand.  If I hold up Don Drysdale as an example of a
    dedicated ball player, does that mean I need to share his philosophy? I
    think not.  He is a good example of dedication to his craft - I don't
    know anything about his theology, nor will it make a difference.  Seems
    that Dobson is picking the best example he could think of, and nothing
    more.  What's the problem?
    
    Daryl

It looks as if it is just another baseless and unsubstantiable assertion.

 What was the context in which Dr Dobson refered to Mr Bonhoefer?




 Jim who agrees with Mark.

The context is contained in notes 181.4 and 181.5

Paul

 Thanks...I remember now :-/

    The differences are more than apparent.
    
    Bonhoeffer was willing to stick up for unpopular classes of persons.
    
    Bonhoeffer was willing to die to his beliefs.  He was, however, not
    willing to kill or advocate killing for the sake of his ideals.
    
    Dobson??  I'll allow the Dobson fans to respond on his behalf.
    
    Richard
    

    Dobson is willing to stick up for unpopular classes of persons.
    
    Dobson is willing to die for his beliefs.  He is, however, not willing
    to kill or advocate killing for the sake of his ideals.
    
    Richard Jones-Christie?  I'll allow his fans to respond on his behalf.
    
    

>    Bonhoeffer was ... , however, not
>    willing to kill or advocate killing for the sake of his ideals.
    
    According to most biographies, Bonhoeffer *was* willing and advocated
    killing.  Even thought he recognized that it was *against* God's will,
    he was willing to take the consequences for what he *knew* was wrong
    (killing) for the ends of ending what he saw as a great evil (Hitler).
    A pretty scarey choice, IMHO, to *knowinly* step outside of the bounds
    of God's will.
    
    Dobson has been willing to take a stand on the side of Biblical
    Christian principles in some politically charged issues.  He has taken
    considerable heat for this, both from the secular and "liberal
    Christian" oppositions.
    
    I am not in agreement with all of Dobson's views, but I am thankful
    that he has been willing to take a public stand for moral, Christian
    issues, as well as stress the importance of family values in today's
    rapidly declining society.
    
    Mark L.

>He was, however, not
>    willing to kill or advocate killing for the sake of his ideals.

I take from this inclusion as to how Bonhoeffer is different than Dobson, that
you are suggesting that Dobson WOULD be willing to kill or advocate killing for
the sake of his ideals?  Would you mind substantiating that in any way, or
alternately, explain why you brought this up if that wasn't your point?

And also, the preponderence of evidence suggests that Bonhoeffer was involved
to some extent in plotting to assininate Hitler.  There certainly is no evidence
to suggest that he was actively against it, and he was in close contact with
many people who were definitely involved in the plot.  So apparently Bonhoeffer 
WAS willing to kill or advocate killing for the sake of his ideals.

Paul

    Okay, I stand corrected.  Bonhoeffer was not the spiritual hero I
    thought he was.  Maybe I'm confusing Bonhoeffer with Franz Jaegerstedter.
    
    Sorry.
    
    Richard
    

OK, you answered part two, that Bonhoeffer might very well have advocated 
killing.  But you didn't answer part one - what makes you think that Dobson
would advocate killing?

This string started because you made a number of derogatory comments about 
Dobson.  Not that I think he's Mr. Wonderful, but I don't think your comments 
were warranted.  You've given very little in the way of hints as to exactly what
you dislike so much about him.  One is this intimation that you think he's 
advocating killing people he disagrees with, which is completely untrue.

The other is that Bonhoeffer was willing to stick up for unpopular classes of
persons, and by inference, Dobson is not.  However, the situations they find
themselves in are totally different.  If the Jews in Bonhoeffer's day were 
demanding to be accepted as part of the church while retaining their belief that
Christ was not the Messiah, and certain groups today were being herded to gas 
chambers because of their differences, I think you'd find that Dobson's and 
Bonhoeffer's responses would also switch places.

But that's just speculation on what you might think.  Could you tell us exactly 
what issue you have with him?

Paul

    Forget I said anything.  Dobson is a latter-day Bonhoeffer.  A prince,
    a saint, and an inspiration.
    
    Okay??
    
    Richard
    

.21  is as close as you'll get to a retraction, I think.  :-)

	re.21

Okay Richard,

	In what way is Dobson a prince, saint, and inspiration? 

	Please provide detailed examples...

	8*) 8*)  8*)

ace

You called Dobson a jerk, and all I did was ask you why you thought so.

What's so offensive about that question?

Paul

    I did not call Dobson a jerk.  So, get over it.
    
    What do you want?  Blood?
    
    Richard
    

    .19, not .21, was the retraction, for the benefit of those who have
    difficulty discerning such things.
    
    Richard
    

RE: Markel,
        
>    According to most biographies, Bonhoeffer *was* willing and advocated
>    killing.  Even thought he recognized that it was *against* God's will,
>    he was willing to take the consequences for what he *knew* was wrong
>    (killing) for the ends of ending what he saw as a great evil (Hitler).
>    A pretty scarey choice, IMHO, to *knowinly* step outside of the bounds
>    of God's will.
   
    I'm sure it pained him to advocate this.  But consider, even in the
    old testament the consequences for some sins was stoneing to death.
    In a sense this stoning could be construed as violating the commandment
    Thou Shalt not Kill but God also demanded penalty for sins.
    
    In the case of Hitler I don't feel that his stance on killing him
    took away from his descipleship with Christ.  This was evil of 
    such a high degree it seems to me to be the only recourse/choice left.
    
    I don't think it was a matter of Bonhoeffer's ideals at work here
    but more that this was the only choice left to stop such hidious crimes
    
    

>    .19, not .21, was the retraction, for the benefit of those who have
>    difficulty discerning such things.

Discernment was never my strong suit.  Perhaps being correct is not one
of your?  ;-)

Oh, let's just get over this, okay?  .19 - .21  what's a couple of replies
between us?

MM

    >Perhaps being correct is not one
    >of your?  ;-)
    
    I make a point of admitting errors when I make them.  A retraction
    is a sign of strength and not of weakness.
    
    Richard
    

>    I make a point of admitting errors when I make them.  A retraction
>    is a sign of strength and not of weakness.

You see?  We can agree on some principles, Richard.  I hope we would get
better at practicing some of those principles.

I'm over it now, though.