Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    Woops! 
    
    
    Lorenzo
    

 Hi Lorenzo,
        
>    My question is: Since this tree in the garden, that contained the
>    KNOWLEDGE of Good & "Evil" was in the garden of Yahweh - That means
>    at one time in creation, EVIL was permitted. (As long as we had NO
>   KNOWLEDGE of evil.)
    
    
    There is nothing that I can recall about sin being permitted in
    the garden.  The sin had nothing to do with the tree.  The 
    sin was disobeying what G_d had commanded.
    
    KJV
    ---
    Genesis   2:16\And the lord god commanded the man, saying, of every
    tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    
    Genesis   2:17\But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou
    shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt 
    surely die.
    
                                                    -Jim-
    

Does this belong in 169.*?

As someone said, "we cannot legislate morality, but we can legislate
immorality."

The "prohibition" of the tree DEFINED a possible wrong.  
The prohibition did not define the right thing to do.
It had its own definition: eat of any tree, except...

So the "except" clause defined immorality, while the
rest of morality (the good) was left to be enjoyed in
whatever fashion (or tree) they chose.

"Banana, hon?"

"No thanks, I feel like having a pineapple instead."

I've also said this about the 10 Commandments: 

Not stealing is an exception.  You can do so many things without stealing,
but you can only do one thing to steal and that is to steal.

Funny how we've looked at the one tree in the middle of a vast and beautiful
garden of things to do, see, eat, etc. and we say that God is being too
restrictive, denying us something or other.

MM

    God never intended for man to have the knowledge of good and evil.  God
    intended man to have the knowlege of His will.  God inherently knows
    what is good and what is evil, and He is the rightful judge of such. 
    However, for man to attain this knowledge (of what is good and what is
    evil) he had to go outside of the will of God -- i.e., by attaining
    this knowledge, man was corrupted.  The tree was not inherently evil. 
    God gave man the choice of obedience.  (After all, if there is no
    choice, obedience not much of an issue.)
    
    Mark L.

    I'm still not sure I know what the question is (not having the question
    mark in .0), but assuming it's along the lines of "what evil was there
    to know about"... recall that Lucifer had already fallen.
    
    The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was there to allow man to
    choose or reject God's authority. Its presence did not constitute evil
    or even evoke evil (since God tempts no one to evil). Unfortunately,
    man chose to reject God back then - and we've been doing it ever since.
    
    	BD�

    woe to them that call evil good and good evil.
    
    
    So it is written - does anyone have the reference?

    Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put
    darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet,
    and sweet for bitter!

Isaiah 5:20  Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put
darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and
sweet for bitter!
 21  Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own
sight!
 22  Woe unto them that are mighty to drink wine, and men of strength to
mingle strong drink:
 23  Which justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of
the righteous from him!
 24  Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the
chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as
dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised
the word of the Holy One of Israel.

    Now if the question was "Evil made by God?" then the answer is "yes",
    since He made everything. 
    
    Erwin

>    Now if the question was "Evil made by God?" then the answer is "yes",
>    since He made everything. 

I followed this logic with an anaolgy:

If your adult son committed murder, are you responsible for the death of
the deceased because you "made" your son through the procreative process?

God created beings with the capability of choice (free will).
Choice means the ability to choose between good and evil,
conforming or rebelling.

Who is responsible for the choice made?
Who is responsbile for the definition of good and evil?

These two questions are interrelated, yet they bear different answers.

Evil was not "made" by God - the ability to choose evil (by definition)
was made by God.  Those who claim that they are the same thing should
hope that their off-spring don't choose to commit evil against members
of society, for by their logic, they are responsible for the evil choices
of their [pro]created offspring.

Actually, God defined evil, in that He defined good.  By making the distinc-
tion and stating, in one way or another, that "this is good" He automatically
called everything that is outside of "good", evil. 

The Law is "good" because it shows us what good is, ie love God with all your
heart, soul, mind and strength, and your neighbor as yourself (the very essence
of the Law).  It also goes so far as to be specific about some things (al-
though I don't believe the list of sins was meant to be "exhaustive") that 
are evil.

So, on the one hand you *could* say that God "created" evil; but it would prob-
ably be more correct to say that He defined "good" as a subset of all that He
created.

Rob

>So, on the one hand you *could* say that God "created" evil; but it would prob-
>ably be more correct to say that He defined "good" as a subset of all that He
>created.

Correct, Rob.  Without the definition (the law) there could be no good
and no evil.

Definition of evil is not the same as doing the evil, which some people
may confuse when they use the term "create."  This is why I make a fuss
about distinction.

God is the Source of all that is Good; rebellion against that definition of
Goodness is evil made possible by the freedom of choice that is designed
in human beings.  By giving us choice, God gave us the ability to choose
rebellion, or choose alignment with Him (love; God is Love).

Mark

Isaiah 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make �peace,� and
    create evil: I the LORD do all these [things]. KJV
    ^^^^^^ ^^^^
Richard

re. 14

Jim,

	What is the Hebrew word for "Create" used in this verse.

thanks,
ace

Strongs:

Create:

1254 b�r� baw-raw'; a prim. root; (absol.) to create; (qualified) to cut down
(a wood), select, feed (as formative processes): - choose, create (creator),
cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).

Evil:

7451 ra` rah; from 7489; bad or (as noun) evil (nat. or mor.):- adversity,
affliction, bad, calamity, + displease(-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness],
man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-ious), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful),
ill (favored).  + mark, mischeif(-vous), misery, naught(-ty), noisome,
+ not please, sad(-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked(-ly, -ness, one),
worse(-st), wretchedness, wrong.

7489 (summary) ... prim. root: to spoil... to make good for nothing.. .
to break into pieces.

Isaiah 45:7  
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I
the LORD do all these things.

The Word speaks clearly.  And when the Word is measured with the Word, it
speaks even more clearly:

Romans 2:12  For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without
law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Romans 3:20  Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in
his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Romans 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no
transgression.

Romans 5:13  (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed
when there is no law.

Romans 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But
where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Romans 7:7  What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known
sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou
shalt not covet.
  8  But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of
concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
  9  For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin
revived, and I died.

The law that God created defined good and evil.  God has defined evil, and
certainly will do some of the things (harm, etc.) that some connotations
of evil implies.  However, God is NOT wicked, which is another connotation
of evil that cannot be applied to God's character because the Word shows that
God defines the terms.

So let us be careful to study the Word and be sure we understand the connotation
behind some words when they don't line up with some ideas, such as "if God
is Good, how can He create evil?"  God is Good and the evil He creates has
meaning.

God also hates (see Note 45.*).  How can a God of love hate anything?
See note 45.  

Mark