Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hi Richard,

Most martial arts claim to be defensive rather than offensive.  Clearly 
they *could* be used wrongly, but the teaching and design aim is not 
aggressive.

I believe that the danger in them is their link with the eastern religions. 
As in Freemasonry, the introduction 'seems' to be incidental, and the grip 
asserts itself progressively, subtly undermining faith...  They lead to the 
sort of 'shared worship' prohibited in 1 Corinthians 10:21-22.

My second son took up Karati when he went to university.  We prayed a lot
over that, and it never got too much of a grip.  After the first year, he
rarely went as it clashed with the Christian Fellowship.  For him, I am
confident that it never went beyond the physical.  Last Saturday I was in
Liverpool to pick him up after his finals, and we went to an evangelistic
evening with a 'Chinese' theme.  One item put on was a mock martial arts
demonstration, by a Christian fellow and another devotee who isn't a
Christian.  He'd rejected his early catholic upbringing.  I chatted to him
afterwards, and the martial arts were filling all the gaps in his life.... 

I would avoid all the martial arts (and yoga) on the principle of spiritual
purity, and boxing and wrestling from the 'violence' issue (with the refs
you quoted).  While the object of the latter may nominally be a
theoretically scientific skill, the practice is aggressive, both in the
participants and the spectators, stimulating denigration and destruction of
God's image in man.... 


						God bless

								Andrew

     I studied Martial Arts for a while from and instructor who is
     Christian. One of the students in my class was his pastor of the
     North Worcester County Christian Church. I practice Tai Chi today. 

     Karate has no more of a spiritual aspect than an aerobics class has. The 
     reason why it appeared to be this way was because after the popular Kung 
     Fu series on T.V. drew an attraction, some schools set themselves up to 
     look like little Shaolin monasteries. This however is not the purpose 
     nor the origin of martial arts. Martial Arts merely conditions the 
     physical side of ourselves. The spiritual side still requires spiritual 
     exercise and that is were Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism or name your
     religion could fit in. 

     Karate actually didn't come from Buddhism, but really evolved from
     Chinese Boxing. The spiritual side has more to do with the culture
     it came from and you could easily put Christianity into it. It really
     isn't any different than a gymnast who is also a Christian. 

     Tai Chi, was originally a classical dance and was practiced
     by Taoist as a physical exercise in order to promote good health.
     It became known as a martial art coincidentally, but is a poor martial
     art in today's world. One could argue that because pagans did it, we 
     should avoid it, but then we would have to abandon the practice of 
     displaying Christmas Trees as well, which was used in pagan worship and 
     is more spiritually oriented than Tai Chi.
     
     Boxing, the best of martial arts, does not go against Scripture
     because the violence spoken of in Scripture has to do with hatred.
     Boxers don't hate each other, but rather respect each other.
     Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Haggler were best friends when they
     fought each other. Its a sport. The fighters are conditioned and
     few receive life threatening or crippling injuries.

     Jim

Further, as for aggression, football (both American and World Cup) is
a very aggressive sport.  Soccer?  (Well, even Basketball is supposed to
be a no contact sport.)  Yet, we enjoy when the receiver pauses to thank
God for the touchdown, the prayer before going onto the field to "slaughter"
the opponent.

I have a friend who has not a few years in Matrial Arts and is a 
strong Christian.  I should ask him about it, really, but I suspect I'll get 
much the same story as Richard's (-.1).

Caveats included: don't compromise your faith and don't allow martial arts,
nor cooking, sewing, cycling, exercize, television, etc... to take
the place that faith has in your heart and life.

Mark

Hi Mark, 

You make a good point there.  A lot of western sports (I don't know about 
other parts of the world) turn a friendly amusement into an aggressive and 
soul-destroying idol.  Was the bit about the prayer before / after intended 
as humour?  It turns the stomach over to think of the public blasphemy 
implied in using such destructive words for something as trivial as a 
game, when there's real needs, for which we have only the same words...

� I have a friend who has not a few years in Matrial Arts and is a 
My favorite typo for this one is marital arts...

							Andrew

    
    >It turns the stomach over to think of the public blasphemy
    >implied in using such destructive words for something as trivial as a
    >game,
    
     Typically the prayer before a game is not that one team has more power
    to anialate (sp?) the opponent, but rather that injury would be
    prevented and that (to the christian athlete) God would be praised and
    glorified through the individual display of control and perseverence
    throughout the game.
    
     Take Hockey for example, they resolve their conflicts through fist
    fighting and it is accepted as a part of the game, clearly to the
    christian athlete it is not acceptable.
    
    Dan
    

    A few thoughts to add to this subject:
    
    I have a friend who, when he was saved, was a Kung Fu (I believe)
    master.  He immediately left it (and the school with which he was a
    part folded as a result) because of the strong "spiritual" side that
    was a part of it.  (For example, the one who was his "mentor" once came
    to his home and performed a rite to guard the home from evil spirits.)
    He came to recognize the demonic aspects that were involved.
    
    I have heard stories of other forms of martial arts that get into some
    pretty "heavy" stuff -- "delayed death blows" which are subsequently
    "activated" later by meditation against the victim -- smacks of demonic
    activity to me.
    
    Now, I am *not* saying that all forms of martial arts are demonic. 
    But, I cite these as examples of where some of them definately get
    beyond just physical conditioning/excercise/defense.
    
    An additional caution I see even in the defensive realm is that the
    training involves learning to react almost instinctively.  (I suspect
    that "mind relaxation" as a part of the training assists in this.) 
    Perhaps I am over cautious, but I have a hesitancy to recommend
    something where you are being trained in a way to react out of instinct
    and impulse.  I believe that we are to be in control of our faculties,
    and it seems to me that in some way some of this training comes near
    to giving control to something else.  Again, not an absolute, but a
    need for caution, as I believe it could become an easy target for the
    enemy to gain a foothold in our lives.
    
    One last thought.  The one that the Scriptures hold forth as an example
    for the life of the believers is required to be "no striker" (1 Tim.
    3:3, Tit 1:7), as was mentioned in the base note.  This is mentioned in
    addition to "not soon angery" and "not a brawler" (i.e, a distinction
    is made).  Does anyone have other renderings or definition for what the
    KJV translates as "striker"?
    
    Mark L.

>     Take Hockey for example, they resolve their conflicts through fist
>    fighting and it is accepted as a part of the game, clearly to the
>    christian athlete it is not acceptable.
    
    The standard punch line is "I went to a fight and a hockey game broke
    out!"
    
    Mark L

    RE:6
    Reacting instinctively is no different than the reactions taken when
    driving a car or riding a bicycle. It takes a lot of regimentation to
    become instinctively reactive. Mind clearing is only that when your
    training, your focused on your training and not day dreaming about 
    taking a shower and hitting the rack when you get home. If your mind is
    somewhere else, you might get hurt.

    The spiritual garbage that you spoke about, has nothing to do with 
    real martial arts, but is the junk that is brought into martial arts 
    as a result of movies and teevee series. There is a lot of bologna in 
    many of the MA schools. That's why I think boxing is superior to other 
    forms of martial arts. There is no bowing or burning incense in order 
    to find yourself. In boxing you train physically and mentally for the 
    real thing. If you attempt to bring some mystical grasshopper rituals 
    into your training, you will only end up getting killed in the ring.

    Jim

                                                    
    Dr. Dean Ornish pioneered a study about 2-4 years ago, where potential 
    bypass surgery patients with clogged arteries were taught yoga, 
    meditation, dietary modification, stress reduction...basically a new 
    way of living according to very ancient eastern-style techniques.
    
    For the very first time, it was proven to western medical science that
    these practices actually *reduced* the buildups in the arteries,
    whereas prior to this study, the only way that western medicine
    believed one could alleviate this problem was through bypass surgery.
    
    I do yoga every day, and see no reason why it would be unacceptable to
    those practicing Christianity.  Since beginning this practice many years 
    ago, my health has improved tremendously, and my sleep has been wonderful, 
    whereas prior to that it was not.  Now, I am in better shape because
    of yoga than I've ever been in my entire life.  Does not Christianity
    emphasize taking good care of the Temple?
    
    Cindy
    
    PS. Only here for a quick look...hi Mark!  (;^)

    Hi Cindy,
    
    Sure, the Bible teaches us to take care of the Temple.  And the Bible
    also says to meditate... but what does it say to meditate on?
    
    The *Word* of God... 
    
    Nancy

    
    Hi Nancy,
    
    Then that is what you should do.
    
    Cindy

>    Then that is what you should do.
    
    This is what *anyone* who considers themselves a follower of Jesus
    Christ should do.
    
    "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue  in
    my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;" John 8:31 

    "Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the  ungodly, nor
    standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of  the
    scornful.  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law
    doth he  meditate day and night." Psalm 1:1-2
    
    Mark L

    
    Re: .0
    
    I disagree on the "innocence" of martial arts.
    
    If you want to dabble in the martial arts, learn to do some moves,
    do it for aerobics, fine... no problem.
    
    As soon as you intend to get good at it . . . you may well compromise your
    faith.
    
    
    In order to excel in it, you need to go beyond merely the physical.
    
    I spent time in kung fu back in 1973-78, before a lot of the movies
    trivialized it as much as they have. 
    
    Even then, very soon into training, an inner group of us dedicated
    students (called "disciples"), started training in meditation, herbal
    healing, harnessing chi (the inner life force -- studied in most Eastern
    religions), trying to read people's auras in the dark, using senses that
    most people do not know they have.
    
    Ever have someone place their palm on you and blast you with heat?  
    
    Ever been behind someone's back and they know without looking that 
    you were going to throw a punch?
    
    How about seeing someone from 10 feet away and telling them what they
    were feeling or intending to do?
    
    My teacher could read people's emotions by looking at their auras --
    he would react to a punch before it was even thrown by "reading" it
    off the person's emotions and heat energy.
    
    He was unbeatable on the sparring floor.
    
    Many of the apochryphal stories you hear about in the martial arts 
    world have some degree of truth in them -- they are not all hogwash.
    ---------------------
    
    Where do these abilities come from?  
    
    Some proponents of the martial arts will say they are inherent in all
    men and just need to be learned.
    
    I see them as more New Age discoveries that are really Old Age
    leftovers.
    
    The best explanation I can see is that they are left-over pre-Fall
    Adamic abilities, that we can access if we go beyond God's will
    (basically, that makes them demonic.....)
    
    I believe they open us up to the Enemy.
    
    When I attempted some of them, I can remember some very bad results....
    
    My early walk with the Lord (age 35) included knowing a similar new
    Christian who tried to keep up with his intense involvement in the
    martial arts -- and knowing the struggle he had as a Christian, I think
    as a result.
    
    And I fear for my ex-teacher, who was also my best friend for 20 years,
    prior to my becoming a believer and our separation.
    He reminds me of Darth Vader....seriously.
    
    I'll pass on a story later in this note that shows something of what
    I am talking about - - and also how we become new creations in the 
    Lord, and how the old man does die.....
    
    But for now, I say --  You can't mix the two of them.
    
    	Bob West

    (I posted this story about 4 years ago -- worth re-posting at this
    time)
    

For 13 years of my adult life my best friend was my kung-fu teacher.
He was about eight years older than me and a sort of big brother and
a father (when it came to teaching kung fu).

He was about as advanced as one can be in the art, having studied it
from age 9 to about age 42 (when this story happened).  He was unbeatable
(really), a one time national champion, too.   He was also very adept
in the spiritual side of the art, and very well read in the occult.

He would read people's auras all the time.  He could tell if people were
healthy or not; he would also use auras to know if someone was going to
hit him, and then he'd strike first.  A few stories -- 

     1. I saw him challenge someone from 15 feet away, saying, "Why do 
        you want to hit me", when that person hadn't said a word.  The 
        person confessed he had been wanting to do so.  

     2. A friend was going to playfully hit him from behind, when he
        without even seeing a think, just said "Don't!".  The friend
     	stopped in mid-air.  The action had been sensed.

     3. He told me that he recognized people more by their aura than their
   	actual characteristics sometimes, he relied on the skill so much.
	(remember this point -- it is important)

After knowing him as teacher and a friend for 10 years, we went into business 
together, and worked side by side every day for two years, along with martial 
arts and still hanging out together as friends. As the business struggled and 
began to fail, and all my worldly security props (money, status, possessions)
were kicked out, I (a previous atheist) accepted the Lord one night.

The next day I went to work, but didn't tell him, since I knew he would be
bothered by it, and to be honest I was a little embarassed myself.

There was some tension in the office for the next few weeks betweeen us, 
a distance I felt in him, with an unknown reasons why. Me? I felt great as
a new Believer.

After two weeks, though, I was convicted by the Scripture  "If you are 
ashamed of Me....", and I told him I had become a Christian.

He was bothered in a sense, but also relieved.  He told me that I had
one of the most vivid, vibrant auras he knew, and said that showed how human
I was.  The morning after I became a Christian, and he saw me at the office, 
my aura was GONE.  Since he had always recognized me by my aura, he couldn't 
see who I was for a moment. He couldn't read me at all, as if I was dead.  He 
was terribly bothered by it, not able to understand what had happened.  Now 
at least he knew why.

Other things he said:

     "Most christians have no aura, as if they are dead."

     My aura would start to come back when I began to curse, swear, or talk 
     of sexual matters (as an atheist I was very crude, foul-mouthed, and
     lewd -- when this came back, so did my aura).

     He has since grieved and mourned the loss of our friendship as if I were 
     dead, since the person he loved and knew for years was now gone (his own 
     words).


I think it is amazing that so much of God's word can be revealed by a non-
believer.


     1. We ARE new creations in Christ -- the old self IS gone -- we are dead 
	to the world and alive in Christ. The world can no longer see our new 
	selves.
     
     2. Further evidence that the "New/Old age powers of auras, ESP, etc."
	have no place in God's world, because they DO NOT WORK there.
     
     3. For those who say that salvation does not come until one is baptized,
	I give this as proof positive that we become new creations in God 
	when we accept in faith that we are -- we are changed at that time,
	not later when we perform works.

    Bob,
    
    Very much what I had in mind in my earlier note.  Some pretty awesome
    stuff out there, all right.  Some people seek for power and glory, which
    interestingly enough, is one of the things offered to a Friend of mine
    by someone: "And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give
    thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to
    whomsoever I will I give it.  If thou therefore wilt worship me, all
    shall be thine." (Luke 4:6-7).  The tragedy is that many people who get
    drawn into the "offer" don't know who they are dealing with, and others
    do, but don't care.
    
    Praise God, he drew you out of that pit.
    
    Mark L.

    Bob,
    
    Thanks for sharing that with us... incredible testimony.
    
    Nancy

Brother Watchman Nee, a Believer of some reknown, ministered in China,
particularly in the region of Shanghai, during the early to mid 20th Century.
He died in a Chinese Communist prison, refusing to leave his beloved fellow 
believers devoid of a shepherd. During his incarceration, he lead many of
his captors to Christ.

He was well known for his deep and absolutely Scriptural insights into human
nature and the Christian walk. Most of the written material published in his
name are actually compilations of his sermons (and sometimes his notes). The
Two exceptions to this (I believe) are "The Spiritual Man" (his 500+ page
systematic theology), and "The Release of the Spirit" (a follow-up to The
Spiritual Man, wherein he deals with brokenness before the L_rd and giving
control of your life over to the Spirit). 

One book, rather obscure, is entitled "The Latent Power of the Soul," in 
which he discusses the supernatural power placed within Adam to discern and
control the natural and supernatural world around him. Brother Nee goes on 
to point out that Scripture never indicates that that power was ever removed
from man at the Fall. Rather, it was commanded that Man subject his soul to
the control of his spirit, and hence G_d's Spirit. Failure to do so results
in the occult abuses and mystery religions seen from Baylonian times.

In this relatively short discourse (<100 pages) Watchman Nee absolutely 
confirms the validity and reality of the types of things described in 
previous replies, and attributes them to the fallen human nature, further 
empowered by demonic spirits. It is well worth reading.

Brian

> ...Scripture never indicates that that power was ever removed
>from man at the Fall. Rather, it was commanded that Man subject his soul to
>the control of his spirit, and hence G_d's Spirit. Failure to do so results
>in the occult abuses and mystery religions seen from Baylonian times.
    
    Brian,
    
    I agree.  But I also feel that for the preservation of the race of
    mankind, God put a hedge about many of these "powers" even in the case
    of those who are not submissive to His Spirit.  For example, the
    confusion of languages at Babel, "And the Lord said, behold, the people
    is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and
    now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to
    do." (Gen. 11:6).  The confusion and scattering was to protect man from
    some of these capabilities.  I see many aspects of the martial arts and
    such practices which though seemingly "innocent" and "healthy" I
    suspect are a means at breaking down some of the hedges that God has
    put around man.  And as I have said before, "He that diggeth a pit
    shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite
    him." (Ecclesiastes 10:8).
    
    Mark L.

.9 Cindy Painter

>    PS. Only here for a quick look...hi Mark!  (;^)

Cindy,
  You are my favortie Yogini!

Mark M

   RE:17
       
    
>    I disagree on the "innocence" of martial arts.
>    
>    If you want to dabble in the martial arts, learn to do some moves,
>    do it for aerobics, fine... no problem.
>    
>    As soon as you intend to get good at it . . . you may well compromise your
>    faith.

    My instructor is good at it, he did not compromise his faith.
    
    
>    In order to excel in it, you need to go beyond merely the physical.

       Yes, its both physical and mental, just as any activity is. Even
       art requires the inner self to be reached.
    
>    I spent time in kung fu back in 1973-78, before a lot of the movies
>    trivialized it as much as they have. 

        Most of the entertainment industry on Martial arts began with the
        Kung Fu Series which began in 1972. It mystified martial arts and
        resulted in the bologna that many MA schools sold.
    
>    Even then, very soon into training, an inner group of us dedicated
>    students (called "disciples"), started training in meditation, herbal
>    healing, harnessing chi (the inner life force -- studied in most Eastern
>    religions), trying to read people's auras in the dark, using senses that
>    most people do not know they have.

        Whatever senses you have, they were given to you from God. Using them
        properly is not against the word of God. However, exaggerating what 
        sense we have, is. I have never seen a martial artist attempt to read 
        auras. I have heard of Christians doing so however. Either way, it is 
        not part of true eastern religions nor is it part of Christianity, but
        I have seen many Christian paintings with  halo's around Christ or 
        the apostles. 

>    Ever have someone place their palm on you and blast you with heat?  

     Yes, in fact when people lay hands on you to pray, you often will feel
     heat.
    
>    Ever been behind someone's back and they know without looking that 
>    you were going to throw a punch?

     MA tricks. We've done them in class as well. Nothing magical about it
     really, its just a matter of feeling the other persons movements. Try
     to read such movements against a boxer and you'll be on the floor.
     Boxers learn to fake moves early on in their training.
    
>    How about seeing someone from 10 feet away and telling them what they
>    were feeling or intending to do?

     Sensei intimidation of meek students who swallow anything the sensei says.
     
>    My teacher could read people's emotions by looking at their auras --
>    he would react to a punch before it was even thrown by "reading" it
>    off the person's emotions and heat energy.

     This is not part of martial arts training. This instructor is bringing
     in occult practices into his classes. It can be brought into any
     activity. Don't blame martial arts on it, blame the instructor.

>    He was unbeatable on the sparring floor.

     He wouldn't last two minutes against a boxer.
    
>    Many of the apochryphal stories you hear about in the martial arts 
>    world have some degree of truth in them -- they are not all hogwash.
    ---------------------

    I disagree. They are mostly hogwash. Anyone who thinks martial arts will
    turn them into some mystical superman, has been fooled.
    
>    Where do these abilities come from?  

     Intimidation. Students arrive at a school, hoping to become a great
     martial artist, full of fighting skills and wisdom. The school merely
     sells them what they want to believe.
    
>    Some proponents of the martial arts will say they are inherent in all
>    men and just need to be learned.

     I say, stay away from MA schools which practice rituals or don't have
     contact training at some level. Your best bet would be to train in a 
     boxing gym. Without Christ in your life, everything is useless
     anyway.

>   I see them as more New Age discoveries that are really Old Age
>    leftovers.

    The New Age has distorted many of the beliefs and practices of Christianity
    They do the same with other religions and philosophies.

>    The best explanation I can see is that they are left-over pre-Fall
>    Adamic abilities, that we can access if we go beyond God's will
>    (basically, that makes them demonic.....)

    True ! Whatever you do should be directed at growing closer to God.
    The problem I had with Martial Arts study is that it required so much
    of me, that it took away from things I could be doing for the Lord.
    
>    I believe they open us up to the Enemy.
    
     The enemy will use whatever he can to deceive you. I've seen Christians
     who were deceived by their own religion. 

>    But for now, I say --  You can't mix the two of them.
    
      Depends on the school and the student. There is nothing magical in
      martial arts. Those that attempt to make it so, are the ones to avoid.
      Martial arts requires hard work and dedication to be good. Most adults
      could never become good martial artist, because it is something that
      requires good physical ability and the type of dedication that most  
      adults just don't have time for. 

      The bottom line here is,  is to find out why you are getting into
      Martial Arts ? Is it because of influence from movies ? Is it for 
      physical health ? Or is it to defend yourself ? To the last part
      I'd say, trust in God, and he will give you the means to defend 
      yourself, even against men the size of Goliath.


    Jim

    
    
    	Another quick note from anothe Cyndi.
    
    
    	Praise the good Lord for this topic!!!!  I have alot more
    	to say (and be thankful for) but thank you for now!!!!!
    
    
    	Still stepping, still singin'
    
    
    	Cynthia 
    

Re: .20


	Question:

	do you think you can be good in martial arts and not 
	master the control of chi?



	Couple comments:

	** True -- Kung Fu series around 1972 started the downhill trend....
		but my teacher started studying from a Chinese stylist
		in 1952 (at age 9), long before it was even known about
		by most of the Western world and mystified by Hollywood.

	** We did fight full contact as part of our training.

	** My teacher was never defeated in any combat -- boxers, stylists of
	any schools.  I watched him for years.....

	** Our school was not a for profit school -- it was private lessons
	solely for the sake of continuing the art.  So it was not a matter
	of giving the masses what they clamor for.


	Bob

re:22

>	Question:
>
>	do you think you can be good in martial arts and not 
>	master the control of chi?

    Yes. Boxers and street fighters don't know anything about it and a 
    Tai Chi master wouldn't  have a chance against them.

    The force behind "Chi" energy is mostly exaggerated. 

>	Couple comments:
>
>	** True -- Kung Fu series around 1972 started the downhill trend....
>		but my teacher started studying from a Chinese stylist
>		in 1952 (at age 9), long before it was even known about
>		by most of the Western world and mystified by Hollywood.
>
>	** We did fight full contact as part of our training.

        Please explain what you mean by full contact.

>	** My teacher was never defeated in any combat -- boxers, stylists of
>	any schools.  I watched him for years.....

          He fought boxers in a ring ?

>	** Our school was not a for profit school -- it was private lessons
>	solely for the sake of continuing the art.  So it was not a matter
>	of giving the masses what they clamor for.

           Such schools are more suspect. Schools that are closed are usually
           afraid of someone making them look bad.
            
           
       Jim

	Re: last few replies

	I think the last few replies would probably be better off in
	the Martial Arts notes file....basically opinions of the "my 
	dad can beat your dad" genre.

	I don't want to continue technical martial arts discussion in
	the Christian notes.

	I don't mind continuing off line.


	As for the public notes, I continue with my facts that any martial
	arts training deals with harnessing chi.  It may start innocently,
	with breathing control, but the bottom line is just that, control
	of your life energy, which is basically the same as harnessing your
	kundalinga (SP?), (the snake force/energy), that Hindi mystics
	talk about.

	(it has been years since I have played with this stuff, so sorry if
	my spelling and/or terminology is incorrect). 

	Re. .18

	Brian, 

	thanks for the reference -- I have read Nee but never knew of that
	book.  Now I have a source for what I knew all along.....

	Bob

    RE;24
    Bob,
        I agree, the MA conference would be the better place to discuss
    technical stuff including "Chi" energy.

    The bottom line is that without Christ Jesus in your life, you are
    in danger, no matter what activity or hobby you take up.

     
    Jim

    Okay... now to throw salt ...
    
    My sons have been begging me to take Karate... it was recommended to me
    for my oldest as he is mildly dyslexic and the coordination that is
    taught in Karate has been known to help dyslexia.
    
    After reading much of what is in here, I'm having my doubts whether or
    not I should do this.
    
    Can anyone specifically tell me about Karate?
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

    
    Re.19
    
    Mark,
    
    I miss your chocolate chip cookies!  (;^)  MmmmmM!
                  
    All's well...in my spare (haha!) time, I'm working with a Hindu
    cultural non-profit organization that is putting on a Global Conference 
    in Washington, D.C. this August 6,7, and 8, to celebrate Swami 
    Vivekananda's 100th anniversary of coming to the US and addressing the 
    First Parliament of World Religions in Chicago in 1893.  
    
    The Dalai Lama will be there, along with astronaut Edgar Mitchell, the 
    King of Nepal, hopefully Pres. Clinton or VP Gore, and many swamis, 
    gurus, and religious leaders of other faiths - including Christianity -
    and performing artists from India.  Also present will be scientists,
    scholars, politicians, business leaders, economists, and
    representatives from many disciplines.  I'll be speaking too...in front 
    of 2000 (*GULP!*) people, introducing some of the keynote speakers from 
    the west including Edgar Mitchell, Dr. Alireza Nurbakhsh of the 
    Nimatullahi Sufi order, and physicist Fred Alan Wolf.  Anyone can
    attend.  If anyone is interested in more information, contact me
    offline.  
    
    Namaste,  (;^)
    
    Yogini Cindy

Have a good time Cindy.

And please pardon my funny bone, but I just can't help this one!

Swami, how I love you, how I love you,
My dear old swami...

Okay, sorry.  (I feel better.)  Grins!

Mark

       
    Mark,
    
    Heehee!  (;^)
    
    Also, prayers that I make it through my presentations without freezing 
    up would be most appreciated!  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    RE:26

    Nancy,
          I've studied Kenpo Karate. Don't let someone's bad
    experience sway you. My instructor is a Christian. In fact his
    pastor holds Bible studies at the school every Saturday. 
    There use to be a number of Christian Martial Artist in this
    conference, but I haven't seen them lately.

    The stuff Paul spoke of is not what happens in most Karate schools.
    However, many Karate schools are not teaching proper martial arts
    either. I would recommend boxing over karate, but its up to how much
    a person wants to pay. Kids are hooked in by Ninja Turtle movies 
    and they believe that the stuff taught in McDonalds type MA
    schools will help them become as good. Be sure that your kids understand
    that the stuff in movies and on T.V. is make believe mostly. Just like
    cartoons.

    Be sure that the school they get into, keeps you informed on everything
    they do. My instructor met with the kids parents individually on a
    monthly basis. Parents were invited to watch the classes. He also informed 
    the kids schools  that if they cause any problems to let him know. Kids 
    would get suspended from the MA school if they were caught fighting or were
    failing in their school work. Shop around.

    Jim

Re: .30

>>>> Don't let someone's bad experience sway you. 


	Jim,

	Just a correction.  

	I would not call kung fu for me a bad experience; I referenced "bad"
	to some of the mind stuff done.

	It was and actually still is very exciting, a great exercise, a type
	of ballet with power and purpose along with the grace, enjoyable.
	I have never been in such good shape as the days when I would work
	our at the school for 4 hours each night! Or be able to hold a iron
	horse position for an hour at a time, willing my body to hold still.
	My body still remembers the moves and I still move with certain
	kung fu motions, unconciously.  And I still feel the pull and desire
	to do more.  But I don't.

	I feel that the lure is something to deal with, part of a darker side
	of the art that I do not want to have compromise with.  

	My choice -- not forced on me, but I decided it based my perceptions.

	Bottom line for me (personally)
	--------------------------------

	If you want to be OK at it, or even good, no matter which style of
	the art you take, and you can limit what you are taught and what you 	
	learn, I think you may be alright...

	If you want to excel, you'll get sucked into areas you shouldn't have
	gotten into...
	

	P.S. To say nothing of the violence or agressiveness.  I guess I don't
	      see how one can fit that into the fruits of the Spirit.

	Regards,

	Bob

Excerpted from a very timely mail message just received today (below):

>>> Karate is not what we see in the media.  On the contrary, the true Art of   
    Karate is a wonderful way to learn how to empty yourself of conflict and    
    find ways to peace.

Hmm... the true art is how to empty yourself and find peace?????


Sounds an awful lot like an Eastern religion to me.


Bob

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


<fwds deleted by note author>


Subj:	Karate Program in the ZKO Wellness Center


The Wellness Center ZKO Karate program will be starting its Summer session
Tuesday, July 6th.

Did you ever wonder what Karate training is like? Have you ever thought about
trying it out but never mustered up enough courage to take the first step? 
Are you turned off by what you see in the movies?   

Karate is not what we see in the media.  On the contrary, the true Art of Karate
is a wonderful way to learn how to empty yourself of conflict and find ways to 
peace.

This is an invigorating and rewarding health program.  It is for anyone who 
wants to try.  It is never too late to start.  We have a very successful 
program going on at the ZKO Wellness Center.  Cone and speak with those who 
have tried it to see for yourself.

The session will run for 13 weeks from July 6 to October 1.  Classes are
held every Tuesday and Friday in the Wellness Center form 4:00 - 5:00 p.m.
Tuition is $55 per month and you can attend two free classes before signing up 
for the session. 

For more information about the professional credentials of the program, the 
school, and the instructor, please call John Ogrodowczyk at (603)465-7901,
or contact Kim in the ZKO Wellness Center at 1-0643  WECARE::DRAPER

** You must be a Wellness Center member to join the Karate Program **

    Hi Bob,
    
    Where did you get that?  Is that someone's opinion or express knowledge
    of Karate?
    
    I've sure been receiving lots of mail... :-) 
    
    Thanks to everyone!
    
    Nancy

    Christ can empty yourself of conflict and give you peace, Bob.
    
    In other words, not proof positive that this is some eastern religion.
    
    MM

    
    	Re. .33		
    	
    	The note in .32 is from E-mail being circulated around ZKO
    	touting the new offering of Karate at the Wellness center.
        (guess I deleted one too many forwards -- sorry)
    
    	Re. .34
    
    	Mark --
    
    	Seems like you miss the point.  I know Christ gives the only real
    	peace.  
    
    	(Do you think this is Christian karate? :*)  it even sounds funny!)
    
    	The point I am making is that this is mainline karate being offered
    	in a corporate setting, and uses yoga-like, eastern religion-like 
    	statements in its come-on.   
    
    	Does it need to be even clearer?  
    
    
    	Bob
    
    	

   
    Can you explain what is wrong with emptying yourself of daily stress
    and distractions ? For the Christian, emptying self so that s/he may
    be filled with Christ is part of growing in the spiritual life.
    
    Jim

>    Can you explain what is wrong with emptying yourself of daily stress
>    and distractions ? For the Christian, emptying self so that s/he may
>    be filled with Christ is part of growing in the spiritual life.
    
    Jim R,
    
    The danger is when this "emptying self" is done by self, i.e., natural
    means.  In doing so, we (anyone) can end up seeking to find rest and
    peace through out own ability or through a worldly means.  "Peace I
    leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give
    I unto you." (Jn. 14:27).  Many are deceived because the enemy can give
    a false peace and serenity.  To seek to find our peace through our own
    mental (or physical) activity is to invite deception.  It is abundantly
    clear the the proponents (in general) of karate are in no way
    interested with deepening the Christian life.  Note that the same could
    be said for many things: running, bicycle riding, even skydiving! ( ;-) )
    Not that there is any inherent evil in any of these things, but they
    are *NOT* a means to spiritual growth.  Consider this in light of 
    1 Tim. 4:8 "For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is
    profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and
    of that which is to come."
    
    One other verse occurred to me last night that I thought might be
    releveant to this string in general:
    "The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth
    violence his soul hateth." (Ps 11:5).
    
    Mark L.

    RE:37
    Mark,
           I agree! You said it well.

    Christ is the source of true peace. Have him in your life first and
    you'll not need to find peace anywhere else.


    Jim

Jim,

Allow me to reiterate my suggestion that Watchman Nee's book,
"The Latent Power of the Soul", be read to grant you insight into
the answer to your question. 

Brian

    
    	Being born a Native American Indian has it's unique 
    	yet parallel hype that the MA/yoga world has.  I did
    	not have to actively seek or adopt another culture.
    	I have dwelt in some very strange, wonderful and really
    	evil places, that even my parents feared I would never 
    	return. As a Native American without the past way of life/
    	culture/oral tradition and direct contact with God 
    	(the Great Spirit) and the Earth I strongly believe 
    	that the teachings of Jesus Christ (Jesos - in MikMaq),
    	the written bible is THE TRUTH, THE LIGHT, THE WAY.  Being 
    	in the program of AA has taught me to put my trust and 
    	faith into no man but my all into the Higher Power -
    	My Dad being in the program for 30 years has lived
    	the true Native path - he has instilled in me pride of
    	who I am yet humility and respect. My awakening/rebirth
    	in the light of the Most High comes at one of the four
    	stages of life we believe God has given us - Born Again.
    
    	Keeping it simple is not so hard anymore now that I know
    	and have accepted the Truth.   It helps me to remember
    	very simple things from the bible like:  "The Devil (Mindu
    	in MikMaq language) is the master of deception and the
    	author of confusion", also that mere man that self proclaim 
    	themselves to be genius's, guru's, shamans, medicine men are
    	are actually self-proclaimed fools.
    
        I search no more - other than seeking what path the Good Lord
    	directs me - humbily. 
    
    
    	I have prayed for the proper words to reply to this topic.
    	Again, thank all of you for your open/honest communication of
    	experience in this area - it has actually cleared up many 
    	questions for me.  I did not know how to approach MA, if I do.
    	You have shed so much light for me and I thank you in Jesus's
    	name!
    
    
    	IMHO
    
    	Cynthia 
    	   

    
    Re.35
    
    Bob,
    
    Can you be more specific about the difficulty you have with yoga?
    I do not understand the context of your references.
    
    Cindy

    my 2 drachma ;-)
    
    Anything good can (and usually will be) counterfeited.  It happens in
    the natural world with currency, painting, signatures...etc.  Currency,
    paintings, signatures...these things aren't evil in and of themselves
    (though to be sure the *love* of money is the root of all evil, which
    is in fact why paintings and signatures [etc.] are forged).
    
    So why the forgeries?
    
    The forgeries allow someone to possess something they wouldn't have
    been able to possess through appropriate means.
    
    Peace, relaxation, physical excercise...these things are not bad
    things!  But the question for the believer must be, am I getting these
    needs met G-d's way, or by inappropriate means.
    
    Light can have no fellowship with darkness, and a house divided against
    itself can not stand.  I've seen some pretty well-balanced replies in
    this string about potential dangers and darker sides of certain
    practices as well as practical benefits that can be gained from the
    same.
    
    G-d has designed man to need Him, to need peace, to need silence, to
    mediate upon Him, to be strengthened by Him physically and spiritually;
    in short, G-d has designed man to be 100% dependent upon Him (seek
    first the Kingdom of G-d and His righteousness and [then] all these
    things will be added to you).  When man (who sadly has been given a
    very ugly picutre of G-d) chooses otherwise, he's trying desperately to
    get what he was created to have - only he'll never have it because it's
    not borne of G-d.
    
    The thing is - let every person be certain in his own mind that he's
    seeking G-d first...seeking G-d and trusting Him to meet all his needs.
    
    FWIW,
    Steve
    
    

.42

>    The thing is - let every person be certain in his own mind that he's
>    seeking G-d first...seeking G-d and trusting Him to meet all his needs.

My money is on this one.  I'll buy this.

    RE:42 & 43

    That's really the bottom line. 

    When I was in Martial arts, it consumed not only time, but mentally, your 
    constantly going over moves and techniques in order to perfect them. It 
    took me away from constant prayer and my time to serve God was lessened. 
    It was a good experience, but I learned that it was never meant for old 
    men like myself anyway. Those young kids can move quick and hit hard.;)


    Jim

    
    Re.42,.43
    
    We have complete agreement!
    
    Cindy

Not a first, Cindy, but noteworthy, nonetheless, despite differences.

    
    I am in awe of the eloquence and gentleness of speech here.  
    
    Singing, stepping, expressing through forms of artwork in 
    glory of the Morning Star (Rev 22:16) - yet struggling with
    speech,
    
    :)
    Cynthia

<<<Note 14.6616     Chit Chat    FRETZ::HEISER "AWANA" >>>
    
                                  -< curious >-
!    What do folks think about Christians being involved in martial arts?
    
    	All things are persmissible, not all things are beneficial. 
    	   As one who made a study of a number of martial arts, I can
    	   now look back and see their benefit, but during the studies,
    	   I was more engulfed with "self" than with any glory to God.
    	
       - So for me, martial arts are now just something I did when younger.
    	 It no longer holds the "awe" it used to. I would say, (being my
         opinionated self), if it does not cause you to sin, do it. If it
    	 (knowingly), would cause you to sin, do not do it.
    
       PDM

    Interesting points of view in this topic.  Some I'm aware of, some I've
    never been exposed to.  Before getting involved with Taekwondo, I
    expressed my concerns with the instructor.  It turns out that he was
    also a born-again believer and attends a Korean Presbyterian church.
    The focus is on self-defense, building discipline, and confidence. 
    Nothing involving eastern religions and meditation is ever brought up.
    In my view, taking this approach just makes it another sport.
    
    Mike

    Kent (or anyone else), what is meant by "breathing" techniques as it
    applies to Martial arts?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Functionally, breathing techniques are synchronized with the movements
    of either an exercise or a kata.  It is usually a deep abdominal
    breathing which is exhaled very slowly.  This is found most prevalently
    in upper level katas.  The kata is characterized by a series of sharp
    short moves accompanied by sharp short breaths then slows for one or
    two moves where a punch, block or a move to simulate the breaking of
    the opponents bones/joints is done very slowly with a great deal of
    isometric energy accompanied by a slow exhale which is terminated at
    the end of the move.
    
    Others may have additional information from their own styles.
    
    Kent
    

    The purpose for breathing techniques is to develop controlled breathing
    during physical exertion. Fighting requires great stamina. If you
    don't believe me, try punching a heavy bag for two minutes. Now consider
    yourself doing the same thing while someone is trying to punch you.
    Breathing techniques help you to keep from getting winded.

    Also, you want to be exhaling while throwing a punch or kick in order
    to inhale in defense. To exhale as you are taking a blow could cause
    you to get the wind knocked out of you.

    You may be wondering why I use the word fighting here. In order to
    defend yourself, you must know how to fight. Most MA schools are loaded
    with bologna and try to use grasshopper philosophy and phony spiritualism to
    attract students. They try to make their schools look like Shaolin
    temples while not having the faintest idea of what Zen, Buddhism or
    Taoism is about. 

    You be better to have a school with a Christian instructor who isn't
    trying to teach a philosophy so much as teaching you how to fight.

    A boxing gym doesn't teach philosophy, but only how to fight.
    You'll learn more in a year of boxing than you'll learn in fifteen
    years in most Karate schools.

     Jim

    So there is no mediation, or any other negatives as far as a Christian
    is concerned, associated with this breathing?

    RE:53

    Not in my school. There are schools who try to look like Taoist
    temples, but those are for the grasshoppers who are looking for
    something other than fighting skills. A Christian would not 
    feel comfortable in such a school and probably wouldn't stay.

    Even in Tai Chi, the breathing exercises and what one would call 
    meditation,(even thought its not) is for circulation of Chi. Chi is 
    bio-electrical energy. To put it simply, its focusing your energy into 
    different meridians of your body. Its what acupuncturist are educated 
    in. There is no magical mystery tour. Its part of the nervous system
    in the human body that God created.

    Religious experiences and philosophies can be brought in to anything.
    MA often brings in Zen because of the culture that it came
    from. Zen, is not a religion, but a practice. There are Zen Christians. 
    
    I'm sure I'll get arguments on this one.;)

     Jim

    I will not go ballistic...
    I will not go ballistic...
    I will not go ballistic...
    
    There, I feel better.  I know that there are many Christians who have
    interpreted the martial arts to fit their own perspective by creating
    pretty scientific terms to explain what was understood to be a
    spiritual force thousands of years before anyone tried to reconcile the
    arts to Christianity.  I also know that American martial arts is so
    polluted from it's original form that the argument can always be made,
    "well we don't do that at our school" or "my instructor is a Christian
    and he says...".  My first instructor was a Christian as well.  As I
    said before he was the son of a missionary to Japan (which, by itself,
    does not qualify one as a Christian).  In that class and in that style
    we were never instructed in the spiritual side of martial arts but that
    does not negate it's existence.  To say that there is minimal power in
    the chi/ki only shows how shallow an involvement one has, or had. 
    While it is true that the American dojos used creative marketing to
    attract new students based on popular TV shows and movies let me point
    out, again, that my involvement a) preceeded that trend and b) was not
    only in the US but also in Korea and Japan where those influences were
    not prevalent.  I studied from masters who taught the local nationals. 
    I learned in the manner that they learned.  I learned what they
    learned, not some watered down Americanized version from someone who
    has Americanized even the spiritual aspect of the art.
    
    The chi can be very powerful depending upon the individual students
    willingness to cultivate it.  I can give many examples from personal
    experience where this has been so.  I can also give personal examples
    where it is questionable who was in control.  I will not do that in
    this conference because I have been redeemed from that and I don't
    believe that it would be edifying to the body or glorifying to God.  I
    will answer any questions either by e-mail or by phone but I will not
    respond in this file.
    
    As for the breathing techniques, functionally they are as I said,
    physically they do work the benefit which Jim said.  There is a
    spiritual aspect to them as well which I would be happy to explain
    off-line since to speak the truth of this here would only precipitate
    another round of arguments.
    
    About a year ago I wa interim pastor of a small church where, it tuned
    out, about 80% were Freemasons.  I got the same rash of arguments from
    them.  "We don't teach that at our lodge".  "I don't believe that". 
    And even when I produced a 26 page document of quotes from various
    Masonic sources they still would not believe until a former/redeemed
    Mason told them the same thing I was saying.  Kind of reminds me of the
    rich man and Lazarus.
    
    In His Service,
    
    Kent
     

    Sorry to upset you Kent, it was not my intention.

    I've seen many martial artist, both from the far east as well as the
    U.S. The things they did were amazing to the people who were not
    use to seeing such things and especially to young naive students who
    are looking for Master Po. "You believe what you want to believe" is 
    prevalent among MA students. The Christian should know better !

    The spiritual force which you mentioned is based on a lot of superstition
    by primitive people from primitive times. Again, the Christian should
    know better and this is my point. A school which teaches true self
    defense is not going to use superstition to train its students, because
    it is a lie, it doesn't work in the real world.

    I have seen numerous traditional martial artist with years of
    experience both here in the U.S. and Asia, get humbled by a
    boxer who has only a few years experience and no spiritual 
    experience.

    Anyway, my view of self defense today is that I will let the Lord Jesus
    Christ be my defender. As God led David to slay the experienced warrior
    Goliath, so will he lead me to do what is right and just, if I'am ever 
    threatened. My drive now is to be closer to Christ Jesus. I haven't
    got the time or interest to train my self for other worldly things.

    Peace
     Jim

    >a lot of superstition
    
    I don't believe in the connotation of the word superstition....
    especially when connected to spirits.
    
    There are minions of Satan in this world ready and willing to control
    surrendered vessels to them.  Take a look at the book of ACTS in
    reference to the Sons of Sceva... 
    
    IMHO,
    of course,
    Nancy

    See .57 :-)
    
    

    Jim,
    
    I've taken out golden gloves boxers and I've taken out wrestlers. 
    Through the power of the chi I have defeated multiple opponents and I
    have come a hairs breath from killing a man on more than one occasion. 
    It is not superstition.
    
    Shalom,
    Kent
    

    RE:59
    Well Kent, its pointless for you and I to go on in this conversation
    because neither of us are in MA anymore and both have turned our
    lives over to Christ. 

    I would recommend anyone who is about to take up MA, boxing or whatever,
    to consider what they could be doing for the Lord instead.

    For me the case is closed.

    Jim

    anyone ever see the egg trick or know how it's done?

    Yeah you suck out on egg fill it with confetti and then crack it over
    someone's head!!!!
    
    The reactions are great! :-) :-)

    Nancy dear, I think they hit you too hard with that egg.

> Yeah you suck out on egg...


Eeeyyyew, Nancy sucks out eggs.

    Re: .62 (Nancy)
>    Yeah you suck out on egg fill it with confetti and then crack it over
>    someone's head!!!!
    
    I always blew the insides out, myself.  Not really a fan of raw eggs.
    
    Markel :-)

    Well, you know me, built like Rocky! :-)

    
    I always thought the saying "go suck an egg" wasn't meant to be taken
    literally.  :-)

    Some of the previous notes are ridiculous at best.  Many of the
    negative toward martial arts in here seem to stem from lack of
    knowledge.  Others from people who were playing in eastern religion,
    not martial arts.
    
    I am a Christian.  I am a second degree black belt.  There is no
    conflict.  The ONLY thing that came close to conflict was I reworded
    some of the "training hall oaths".  They were a token act for
    traditions sake, that was said maybe thrice in a year at most.  Nothing
    in training need ever be connected with any religion.  Karate is a
    physical act, period!  If you have the spirit of God, that spirit
    permeates every physical act you do.  If you have another spirit, that
    permeates everything you do, but nothing you do gives you the spirit.
    
    Do you need to be invovled in eastern religion to be a good martial
    artist. NO!  You can train a horse to be a good jumper.  Now if some
    eastern religion incorporated horse jumping into some worship festival
    some people would start saying its a sin for a horse to jump or to
    train him to do so.  BULL.
    
    I can train to be an excellent driver, or runner, or typist, or pilot
    or martial artist.  They are all physical acts.  They all benefit by
    training, mental concentration, etc.  No sin.  Stop adding to God's
    laws.  THAT *IS* a sin!
    
    If you want to meditate, meditate on God's laws.
    
    Rich

    Last evening I had the opportunity to talk with a 16 year old boy
    regarding martial arts.  He comes from a long lineage of martial
    artists enveloped in the power of the earth, ying/yang, etc.
    
    He became a born again Christian when he was 8 years through my
    church's bus ministry.  This past summer at our National Youth
    Conference, Martin found his heart being knocked on so forcefully, he
    recalled that it felt as though a power beyond him, pick him up out of
    his pew and drop him at the altar.  He gave his heart/soul and mind to
    the Lord.  
    
    His father died before he was 5 years old, his mother of another faith
    doesn't support his going to North Valley Baptist or its Christian
    school.  Marvin made a decision to go to our Christian school, and pay
    for it himself.  He got a job at Great America, which will soon end as
    the season closes [part-time job] and has bought his own clothes and
    paid his own tuition.  He rides his bicycle to school 6 miles.
    
    Every Monday and Thursday one of our filipino adults, Hector, teaches
    several boys for free kickboxing.  Marvin is already a judo black belt. 
    He not only is learning kickboxing, but also helping instruct the boys
    in basic movements and exercises.
    
    Last night, there was a miscommunication over the training and due to
    several of the boys including mine meeting at the wrong location, I met
    Marvin.  So he offered to come to my house and work with my boys on the
    basic moves and exercises.  I agreed.
    
    After they were done, Marvin came inside and he began opening up about
    a book [name I cannot remember] that was helping him to deepen his
    martial arts skill level through tapping into the power of the earth.
    
    I listened intensely for a while and when he was done, I asked him who
    was the prince and the power of the air?  He said, Satan.  I said and
    to what is the Bible referring as the "air"?  He said, here on the
    earth.  I then asked what power was he tapping in to... and his face
    changed imediately.
    
    I could see this boy's potential in the Lord.  He was mature,
    articulate in his speech, he was a soul-winner, had led 4 of his
    friends in the public school to the Lord.  You could see character in
    the very way he carried himself.
    
    I explained that I believed that there was spiritual warfare going on
    around him trying to render him wounded in the Lord, so that he would
    not become an effective witness for Christ.
    
    As we began to share and I asked him questions to provoke his thought
    regarding choices he must make regarding the spiritualism of martial
    arts, I could see him changing right before my very eyes.
    
    I could have TOLD him all these things and it may or may not have
    reached through, but I didn't tell him, I just asked him questions and
    offered instruction when asked.
    
    When he left, he thanked me and told me that very few people ever make
    him feel as comfortable as I did.  And he said he was returning the
    book regarding the spiritualism and would read a book I gave him by
    Frank Peretti.
    
    You know there are no accidents in life... Praise God he and my boys
    were given the wrong location for the kickboxing training.
    
    P.S.  marvin is currently in martial arts competition, his goal of
    course was to do whatever it would take to WIN.  You can't fault a
    young man for wanting to be the best... amazing how good attitudes can
    lead us often times down a wrong path.
    
    
    
    

Great Nancy! - delicate work, nursing someone through to realise, admit and
repudiate a position like that! 
						Praise the LORD!
								Andrew