Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
     Just a quick note to help with a perspective, something I think we all
    know but maybe worth saying.
      
       UNlike the animal kingdom the Human offspring is the only species
    that is brought into the world totally helpless and dependant upon the
    parents.  A new baby cannot walk,swim, crawl or even roll-over. They
    cannot fend for themselves or even provide food for themselves, but
    they are born with a natural desire to suck. How interesting that this
    desire to feed is so important,if it is met then they begin to grow, if
    it is not then they begin to die.  So it is, I believe that out
    temporary lives here are a correlation of how we should view or
    spiritual growth.

    >I had some thoughts in the shower.  (I shy away from the word
    >"revelation" because it sounds to spooky for someone as common as I am.)
    
    Well, I could be punny and say... sounds like you were *all wet* to me.
    :-) :-)
    
    And as far as common, the only thing common about you Markem is that
    you live close to the Boston Common... %-}
    
    Nancy
    
    P.S.
    Will write more in here later

About commonness:

Daryl Gleason rightly says that he blushes at the accolades because he would
be happy to know that the Lord is pleased and that his service is its own
reward.

We are common people.  I am common, meaning that I am flesh and blood like
anyone else.  I've said it before that Enoch, Abraham, Mary, Peter, and 
Paul (just to name a few) were ordinary persons - common folk.

Yet the difference in their lives was their personal walk with God.
Can you say "set apart?"  We see these people as having grabbed the
Biblical headlines, yet these people have made no greater contribution
than some unknown who has walked with God and obeyed His good pleasure.

But they made the headlines... surely they were not common by this virtue?

What is God's economy?  How does God get more glory from this individual
than from another individual.  Who makes the growth in the kingdom?
Our individual contribution is obedience.  That obedience may have 
a person lead three million people out of bondage; it may have a person
trust God with the details of bringing nations out of a body that is
naturally too old to bear a child; it may be to go against an army of 
tens of thousands with a mere three hundred men.

If God chooses us to bring much glory to himself through headlines, then
praise the Lord for using us.  If He chooses us to bring glory to Himself
through something no one else will see, then praise the Lord for using
us.  When you're tempted to say, "Look what I did," step back and think
about what you did do and what the Lord did through you.  All we've
done is do what we were supposed to do.  We are edified by it!  Praise God!
He used us!  God is glorified by it and  He  gets the glory.

Mark

    .3 reminds me of a 4HIM song, not sure of the name, but lyrics go "I
    want a be a man that they would write about.  A thousand years from now
    they could read about a servant mumble mumble who found Your favor, a
    man who heard Your voice"
    
    jeff

"a servant mumble mumble who found Your favor, a
    man who heard Your voice"


     Y  E  S  ,   L  O  R  D  !

I am not sure that the context of the conversation was, but the topic is
holiness. This is a good topic and I think that it needs a little more
explaination since it relates directly to our Christian lives.

In Lev 20:7 we find the defintion of what holiness is:

The context is Moses telling the original story of the covenant between God
and the Israelites after being fourty years in the desert. He is recounting
the events just prior to the old covenant.

"Consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am the Lord your God.  Keep my
decrees and follow them, I am the Lord, who makes you holy."

In the account of Moses and the burning bush, the reason that he was to take
his shoes off was because the ground was holy. Why? Because God was there.

God said, Consecrate yourselves, that is, set yourself apart and be with
God. Something that is consecrated is "set apart" for a holy purpose.

Jn 17:17 shows how the apostles were sanctified, "Sanctifiy them by the
truth; your word is truth."

Holiness begins with a quest for God's word.  God's word reflects his
character and therefore is holy.  We are given his spirit to aid us in
following in his footsteps.  It is God that makes you holy, so you must take
on God's attributes -- his character (one of those attributes is purity, as
was mentioned earlier).  One of the tools to do that is to observe how God
handled situations, how he acted, what he thought about, and to do likewise.
The bible records these situations for us to learn from.

Eph 5:1, "Be imitators of God..."

I want to make this clear.  There is nothing that we can do to make
ourselves holy.  It is God that makes us holy.  If God has set you apart,
you will be striving to remove the old nature and to be putting on the mind
of God.  You will be striving to act like God because that is the way God
acts.

2Tim 2:13 - "...if we are faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot
disown [deny] himself." That is, God must act like God. He is the standard.

Romans 7 illustrates the struggle, this is perhaps my favorite part of the
bible.

It is God that makes you holy. The bible shows us humans, in a practical
way, how we who profess to follow Christ must behave.

'Carl

Well said, 'Carl.

Q:  In what manner should we preach sanctification?

A:  Scarce at all to those who are not pressing forward: to those who are
    always by way of promise; always drawing, rather than driving...

    John Wesley in exerpts from "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection"

    
    What does the Answer mean Mark?  Will you translate into modern English
    or at least more straightforward words?  I've been reading Philips
    translation for a long time now! ;)
    
    jeff

I'd like to spend some time and formulate this better, but for now, would
you settle for a mind dump?

Early on, I learned that there are several things that, if prayed for and
answered, would cause a certain amount of stress in the life of a Christian.
One was patience, because the only way to build up patience is through
adverse times.  The other was the principle behind this thought:
Comfortable Christianity.  

John Wesley speaks about comfortable Christianity to my mind when he refers
to those who are not pressing forward.  To these people, their Christianity
is just fine with them, thank you very much, and they are not ready
to move to higher ground (generously speaking) or they are not willing
(something to be careful about), or they are not able to press forward
(for whatever reason).

I've prayed for myself often not to become complacent with my Christianity
but always to press forward.  Some have expressed the concern that we should
be content in all things.  Indeed I am content where I am, but not to the
point of becoming complacent with my situation; I want higher ground.

I know people who seem to fall into several classes of [non]Christianity.

Just Enough Christianity:
  I'm saved.  Let me know the minumum requirements to keep me out of hell.
  I figure that the least in heaven is way beyond cool here on earth, so
  give me the minimum requirements and don't bother me further.

Aladdin Christianity
  Dear Lord, give me this and give me that and heal this person and comfort
  this person.
  (What's wrong with that, you might ask?  If it is the focus, God becomes
   a genie in a bottle to perform acts of "goodness" that we've determined
   He should do, rather than the view that God is the Sovereign Emporer of
   the Universe.)

Pot Luck Christianity
  Let's show the world that Christianity is fun and maybe they'll hear the
  gospel someday.  It's also known by me as Social Club Christianity.
  Church membership is procured on the need for fellowship, the friends
  one can make and have in the church setting.  Behavioral requirements are
  palatable enough in trade for selfish endeavors to have the friends and
  fellowship attendant with a church.

  This view is more concerned about appearance than Just Enough Christianity
  and Aladdin Christianity.  They want the world to see the smiles to draw
  rather than confront the world with the truth of the gospel (not in an
  agressive way, but in a teaching, presentation of the truth).

Wounded Christianity
  I'm hurt and rather than deal with it and press forward, I'm going to 
  sit right here and wait to be mended.  Sometimes these people are also
  known as the walking wounded.  People who need to be given extra care if
  they are going to bless the church with their continued presence.  I've
  seen people leave the revolving door of the church because someone 
  stepped on their toes and it was not resolved, or resolved to their 
  satisfaction.  More often than not, the toe-stepper wasn't even aware
  of stepping on the toes - the walking wounded have a penchant for 
  looking for offense because their sore spots are very tender.

Pessimistic Christianity
  An oxymoron.  These are the people who look for justification of their
  negative criticisms and find it in the littlest things.  They often
  blow this out of proportion and can become walking wounded, or simply
  people who love to confirm themselves through other people's failures.

Intellectual Christianity
  Dot the i's cross the t's - legalist.  Missed the working in the heart.
  This is not merely avoiding the emitonal state of Christianity, it
  pertains to the legalistic view over the relationship view of what
  a Christian does and is.  Working in the heart is far more than 
  emotion, but is being.

Emotional (or experiential) Christianity
  This view ignores the intellectual and verifiable Word, when it conflicts
  with the experience and emotion.  It places the experience above just 
  about everything and can lead to some stretches in Christianity.

Holiness Christianity
  God said it.  I believe it.  That settles it.
  While many of the above Christians can say these now clich� words, one
  may still not press forward.  But the one who does press forward 
  continually asks, "What has God said?"  "Do I really believe it?"

  The Bible lives and is not static.  It speaks to young and old, no 
  matter where on the Christian Journey one is; it is not enough to 
  have read the words, to know what it says, the stuff of classroom
  examinations.  God tells us different things through his Bible and
  many Christians of all flavors attest to how an often-read passage
  suddenly has new meaning and depth that ministers to where they
  need it today (than it did sometime inthe past).

  Christian perfection is a promise and call of God.  Not perfection in
  the sense of becoming infallible, but perfection in becoming holy.

  "Be ye holy as I, the Lord Your God, am holy."

  We need to recognize that this is a partner relationship - not co-equals,
  but a junior and Senior Partnership nonetheless.  We cannot become holy
  beings by ourselves, but neither will God purify those who wish to remain
  impure.  We must press forward and be drawn by God's holiness, wanting to
  be holy as He is holy.

I've been chewing on this for a while and haven't gotten around to 
putting into a form because of time or inspiration.  Sorry if this
is unclear anywhere.

Mark

    Thanks Mark.  That was great.
    

    
    Good answer Mark, though a bit long ;).  Would you paraphrase the
    actual statements for me?  What is "drawing" and "driving"?
    
    jeff

Long?  I know.  Who was it that said "I'd write a shorter letter if I
had more time"?

>What is "drawing" and "driving"?

To those who press forward, preach sanctification by way of promise.

The carrot before the horse draws the horse onward.
The whip behind the horse drives the horse onward.

Holiness and sanctification are not whips.  "You MUST be holy or else!"
Holiness and sanctification are carrots.  "Be holy, AS I AM holy."

The draw is "as God is."  Unlike the carrot, which the horse doesn't 
obtain as he walks, a person becomes purified as the process progresses.
Another analogy is the refined gold where God skims off the dross 
that floats to the top during the refining process (heat).  And
while the heat of purification is not very appetizing, the purity of
pure gold is, and so we are drawn to God's holiness.

We also realize that the closer we come to God, the less the dross
means to us.  Too many cling to the dross as if it had value and 
to lose its weight and mass from the ore would be to lose value.
Quite the contrary!  Losing that which diminishes value, increases value.

This is shorter.  Does it answer your question?

Mark

More...
Excerpts from "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection" by John Wesley

--------------
Q:  When does inward sanctification begin?
A:  In the moment a man is justified.  (Yet sin remains in him, yea, the seed
    of all sin, till he is sanctified throughout.)  From that time a beliver
    gradually dies to sin, and grows in grace...

--------------

...He is purified from pride; for Christ was lowly in heart: He is pure from
desire and self-will; for Christ desired only to do the will of his Father:
and he is pure from anger, in the common sense of the word; for he is 
angry at sin, while he is grieved for the sinner.  He feels a displacency
at every offense against God, but only tender compassion to the offender...


--------------

...Now it is evident, the Apostle here speaks of a deliverance wrought in this
world: for he saith not, The blood of Christ will cleanse (at the hour of death,
or in the day of judgment,) but it "cleanseth," at the time present, us
living Christians "from all sin."  And it is equally evident, that if any sin
remain, we are not cleansed from "all" sin.  If any unrighteousness remain
in the soul, it is not cleansed from "all" unrightouesness.  Neither let any
say that this relates to justification only, or the cleansing us from 
guilt of sin; First, because this is a confounding together what the 
Apostle clearly distinguishes, who mentions, first, "to forgive us our sins,"
and then "to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."  Secondly, because this is 
asserting justification by works, in the strongest sense possible; it is making
all inward, as well as all outwards, holiness, necessarily previous to 
justification.  For if the cleansing here spoken of is no other than the
cleansing us from the guilt of sin, then we are not cleansed from guilt, that 
is, not justified, unless on condition of walking "in the light, as
he is in the light."  It remains, then, that Christians are saved in this world 
from all sin, form all unrighteousness; that hey are now in such a sense
perfect, as not to commit sin, and to be freed from evil thoughts and evil 
tempers...

  (Frankly, I don't know how Wesley can say "sin remains" yet we are
   "cleansed from all sin" in the same book.  I only have exerpts on a
   paper, but I see what I can find out.)

-------------
...They are not perfect in knowledge.  They are not free from ignorance, no,
nor from mistake.  We are no more to expect any living man to be infallible,
than to be omniscient.  They are not free from infirmities, such as weakness 
of slowness of understanding, irregular quickness or heaviness of imagination.
Such in another kind are impropriety of language, ungracefulness of 
pronunciation; to which one might add a thousand nameless defects, either in 
conversation or behavior.  From such infoirmities as these none are perfectly
freed until their spirits return to God; neither can we expect until then
to be wholly freed from temptation; for "the servant is not above his
master."  But neither in this sense is there any absolute perfection on 
earth.  There is no perfection of degrees, none which does not commit
of a continual increase...

More...
Excerpts from "A Plain Account of Christian Perfection" by John Wesley

---------------
...A mistake in judgment may possibly occasion a mistake in
practice...And a thousand such instances there may be, even in those who
are in the highest state of grace.  Yet, where every word and action
springs from love, such a mistake is not properly a sin.  however, it
cannot bear the rigor of God's justice, but needs the atoning blood.

...Therefore, sinless perfection is a phrase I never use, lest I should
seem to contradict myself.  I believe, a person filled with the love of
God is still liable to these involuntary transgressions.  Such
transgressions you may call sins if you please; I do not, for the
reasons above mentioned.

---------------

...I fear many stumble on this stumbling-block.  They include as many
ingredients as they please, not according to scripture, but their own
imagination, in their idea of one that is perfect; and then readily deny
anyone to be such, who does not answer that imaginary idea.

---------------

...The more care we should take to keep the simple, scriptural account
continually in our eye.  Pure love reigning alone in the heart and life,
- this is the whole of scriptural perfection...

---------------

...Q: Is this death to sin, and renewal in love, gradual or instantaneous?
A: A man may be dying for some time; yet he does not, properly speaking,
die, till the instant the soul is separated from the body; and in that
instant he lives the life of eternity.  In like manner he may be dying
to sin from some time; yet he is not dead to sin, till sin is separated
from his soul; and in that instant he lives the full life of love.  And
as the change undergone, when the body dies, is of a different kind, and
infinitely greater than any we had known before, yea, such as till then
it is impossible to conceive; so the change wrought, when the soul dies
to sin, is of a different kind, and infinitely greater than any before,
and than any can conceive till he experiences it.  yet he still grows in
grace, in the knowledge of Christ, in the live and image of God; and
will do so, not only till death, but to all eternity.

Q: How are we to wait for this change?
A: Not in careless indifference, or indolent inactivitiy; but in
vigorous universal obedience, ina zealous keeping of all the
commandments, in watchfulness and painfulness, in denying ourselves, and
taking up our cross daily; as well as in earnest prayer and fasting, and
a close attendance on all the ordinances of God.  And if any man dream
of attaining it any other way, (yes, or of keeping it when it is
attained, when he has received it), he deceiveth his own soul.  It is
true, we receive it by simple faith: but God does not, will not, give
that faith, unless we seek it with all diligence, in the way which he
hath ordained.  

This consideration may satisfy those who inquire, why so few have
received the blessing.  Inquire, how many are seeking it in this way;
and you have a sufficient answer.

[This last paragraph is stunning.  How many Christians are seeking God
diligently? (Hebrews 11:6)]

Prayer is especially wanting.  Who continues instant therein?  Who
wrestles with God for this very thing?  So, "ye have not because ye ask
not; or because ye ask amiss," namely, that you may be renewed before
you die.  Before you die!  Will that content you?  Nay, but ask that it
may be done now; today, while it is called today.  Do not call this
"setting God a time."  Certainly, today is his time as well as tomorrow. 
Make haste, man, make haste...

  We do not come to love God because we know Him first;
     We come to know God because we love Him first.

Love must be the first step in a relationship towards God and holiness.
We can gather a lot of data about God through study, sermons, and many
years of Bible classes.  We can become scholars, philosophers, and 
divinity school professors.  But all the knowledge in the world will not
bring us to love God for Who He is.

But! if we come to God from our love, the desire to get to know Him 
ever increases, and indeed the more we will come to know Him, for God
is love.

What does this have to do with holiness?  Getting to know God is a key 
component of living a holy life; living according to His guidance and 
standards.  Getting to know God is borne out of the relationship to 
the Almighty, the love relationship between you and your Creator.

Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, 
and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (See also Matthew 22:37,
Mark 12:30, and Luke 10:27)

	re.16 (Mark)

	Actually my experience was different. I did not love God at all. But
I believed in Him. One day I found myself in deep sneaks. I cut a deal with
God... "If you get me out of this impossible bind, I'll serve you the rest 
of my life". He delivered me according to my word, but I thought to dismiss
my end of the bargain. However, you can't break deals with God 8*). Within 3
years I had given my life over to Him. At that time I still don't recall any
real sense of love toward Him, but I believed Him more than ever, and to some
extent I had come to know Him. Since then, I've experienced His great love
toward me and realized that my human love is inadequate to love God. Only
Christ really loved God, therefore as I experienced Christ, I was able to love
God with Christ's love.

Experiential knowledge (vs. head knowledge) causes me to appreciate Him the 
more and this appreciation turns into love for this marvelous Person!

ace

    Hi Ace,
    
    That was great testimony... and you know I can see where both you and
    Mark really aren't stating different opinions, even though it seems
    that way.
    
    You see, as you stated until he came outta your head and into your
    heart, you just couldn't fully appreciate the *knowledge* of God.  But
    once he got into your heart and permeated your thoughts, He became more
    real to you.  *Love* now being exchanged and not just received, makes
    one more apt to align their morals with God's morals in a deeper sense.
    
    Hmmmm.... how can I analogize this?  I know :-)
    
    SPAGHETTI SAUCE... When you make spaghetti sauce, you can eat it within
    an hour of it's cooking...but each hour that it cooks, the spices
    become more enhanced and the sauce gets better and better.  Well,
    that's what I'm talking about... as we fall in love with the Lord,
    although we will never fully understand holiness or His character, we
    become more intimate and more desirous to be as holy as our understanding
    and our humanity allows us.  We are experiencing the same spaghetti
    sauce, but it sure seems different the longer you let it cook and
    simmer [or in this case how about more we mediate on Him].
    
    Nancy

	re.18 Nancy

	Say, that's a pretty good analogy. Send me the recipe will ya? 8*)

	Concerning holiness: At one time I was very involved in a "holiness"
denomination. The Pentecostal Holiness Church (PHC) to be exact. Holiness as 
practiced there was mainly defined as moral and pious behavior based upon
biblical principles. I was a bit wild when I first got saved so the instruction
I received there was beneficial to adjust my untamed humanity. After many years
though, I realized that I was not living up to the standard of holiness as
defined in the Bible (Matt 5-7). I was living up to the standard of most of 
those (so I assessed) in the PHC, but not according to the level of the
kingdom life the Lord describes in Matthew 5-7. Not that those in the PHC 
(including me) were loose or insincere or uncommitted. Nay, nay 8*). Quite the
contrary, strict, sincere, and committed. Yet still we fell short. (To
appreciate my realization, I suggest that you read Matthew 5, 6, & 7 and pray
over each verse one by one, speaking to Lord and asking Him how you measure up
to each verse. "Lord, how about me? Am I one who hungers and thirsts for
righteousness? Oh Lord, show me, expose my true condition, remove my veils!"
You'll understand what I mean.) 

	But as I was saying, I began to realize my true condition...

	"Because you say, I am rich and have become rich and have need of 
nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and 
blind and naked" Rev 3

	I began to realize that all my holiness, that which I considered my
accomplishment for the Lord, was my wealth and riches and that my true
condition was wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked. "Holy living" was
my mask. "Holy living" was my own effort. "Holy living" was the strength of my
flesh. 
	I also realized that only God is Holy. Holiness is God's nature. Like
the nature of a tree is wood. And that if I desired to be holy I must receive
His Holy nature into me. And then having received His holy nature I could live
it out in my living. 

	"Because it is written, You shall be holy, because I am holy" 
	1 Pet 1:16

	"..you might become partakers of the divine nature.." 2 Pet 2:4c

	"But according to the Holy One who called you, you yourselves also
	become holy in all your manner of life: 1 Pet 1:15

	Once I let my holiness go, and began intimate contact with the Holy 
One, then I began to experience the inner operation of His Spirit and an
authentic and genuine holy manner of living began to issue forth. It is the
Holy One within that matches the living of MAtthew 5-7. It's also a process that
will require a lifetime of communion with a Holy God and a heart that is 
willing to cooperate with His operation. 

	This is how I define holiness according to the Bible and according to
my experience of it.

Regards,
ace 

    Hi Ace..
    
    BTW, even tho' we met, I can't remember what you looked like... :-)
    
    I go to a church that has a *lot* of rules.  And it is exactly the same
    standard as when I received Christ as Savior.  Since that time, I must
    say that I've rebelled against those rules, as I believe they secure
    one in a false sense of holiness.  Now, I know that separation is
    important and I believe that purity is truth, however, when rules
    replace the intimacy of knowing Christ's holiness, then rules are
    sinful.  And let me qualify also that rules can also be holiness. 
    Sounds paradoxical doesn't it.  Let me explain.
    
    You see each person with their uniqueness must take responsibility for
    their relationship to God.  And if following those rules are deep felt
    convictions in which they are earnestly seeking holiness, then this is
    good.  But when those same folks 10 years later, have become rotely
    self righteous in those same rules, it's inventory time.  Or if other
    folks follow the rules, much like the army, but never truly align
    their convictions on the inside, but on the outside they look good.
    
    Matthew 5, 6 and 7 are excellent reading ... but more importantly for
    meditation and prayerful discernment.
    
    Sometimes we need to shed our skin [just like snakes] and let new work
    begin in our hearts.
    
    Nancy _Who's_gonna_read_Matthew_5,6&7  %-}

re.20

Nancy,

	I know exactly what you mean.

>    Sometimes we need to shed our skin [just like snakes] and let new work
>    begin in our hearts.

	Yes. Individually and corporately. Corporately speaking, groups of
christians who experience the same thing, or see things the same way, or
share a certain aspiration will cluster together. It's a natural tendency I
think. Then they formalize their experience, or understanding, or aspiration
as a tenet, or rule, or at least high expectation for anyone who might join
them. I believe the Bible speaks against this, but nevertheless christians
do this. When I was Catholic, the rules and formalities were made perfectly
clear. As a grandson of a Southern Baptist minister, baptism was the center
of our christian faith. As a Pentecostal Holiness, we expected that every
christian should speak in tongues and felt sorry for those who didn't
considering that they were at minimum lifeless but very likely unsaved. As
for holiness, well there were rules and there were unstated rules. (One of the
unstated rules was women's hairdo. At that time, it need to be stacked up like
a high tower with many floors, Sorta like the tower of Babel 8*). 

	At one point in time, each of these different groups "saw" something.
And most were legitimate, bonafide experiences of the Spirit. The mistake
occured when they formalized it. The Spirit isn't like that. The Catholics 
saw something concerning church authority, the baptists saw something 
concerning the proper means of baptism, the pentecostals saw something 
concerning the empowering Spirit, the Presbyterians saw something concerning
the eldership, the holiness groups saw something concerning sanctification,
the free groups were a reaction to the unbiblical hierarchy being formed in
christendom, etc. Most all began with something of the Spirit, soemthing of
life, or soemthing of light (biblical truths). But the Spirit blew on to
something else and each of these groups were left with a shell. The Spirit comes
and goes like the wind. In order to be on the leading edge of God's move on the
earth, we must be willing to follow the Spirit and respond to His up-to-date 
operation.
	 Your analogy of the snake leaving the snake skin behind is applicable. 
But because the snake has such a negative connotation in the Bible I prefer to 
use a more positive illustration. Let's use a peanut. A peanut has two parts.
The edible, nourishing nut, and the container, the shell. When we eat peanuts,
we eat the nut and toss the shell. The nut is nourishing part and is the
objective, but the shell is merely to preserve the nut until you eat it. No one
will eat the shell. Yet holding onto the shell is precisely what most
christians do. The nourishing part has already been eaten, but the shell is 
still held onto. Again from my experience, speaking in tongues is a shell,
the Spirit is the nourishing part. 

	When we follow the ruling of the Spirit, we don't need rules.

regards,
ace

.20>        When we follow the ruling of the Spirit, we don't need rules.

I've read your notes Ace and we are not in disagreement.  :-)  Surprized?

We can see your quote in this illustrated by Christ himself when He was
asked which was the greatest commandment (rule):  Love God.

Once in a Bible study, we were discussing freedom from the Law (rules),
and how something can be a sin for someone but not another (because the
Holy Spirit's will may be to go for one and to stay for another and if
the two do the same thing, one is in violation, rebellion, and sin).  And
a newer Christian expressed exasperation: "Why can't we just have a set 
of rules to follow so we can know what is a sin and what isn't?" 

>Getting to know God is a key 
>component of living a holy life; living according to His guidance and 
>standards. 

This quote from .16 may have started the "rules" discussion but "living a holy
life" is an expression of the holiness within (as you stated well), and 
"living according to His...standards" should not be codified to the point of
losing Him in the process!

Your testimony in .17, Ace, says that you knew God before you loved Him,
but if God is love, then all you knew was about God.  When I said "we come
to know God because we love him first" I meant "to know" in the intimate
sense and not the intellectual sense; to have experience with God that 
we cannot experience unless and until we participate in a love relationship
with Him.  Similarly, we can know another person to a point - their likes,
dislikes, etc. but when the dimension of love comes into play, there is a
level of knowing that makes us intimate with that person, beyond aquaintance,
beyond friendship... intimate.

>Deuteronomy 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, 
>and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. (See also Matthew 22:37,
>Mark 12:30, and Luke 10:27)

Jesus said this was the greatest commandment (rule).  And when one looks at it,
what does one do to love?  One cannot prescribe a recipe for love, or 
describe the actions of love, yet we are commanded to follow this rule above
all others.

And it does feed upon itself.  The more we love God, the more intimate we'll
become with Him (and know Him); and the more we know Him ,the more we will
love Him!

Mark

This didn't really belong in 260, so I'll put some quotes here:

"...It will not be a hard metter to keep Him in your heart if you are in
earnest, for He wanted to get there when you were a sinner, and He 
certainly desires to stay there as long as you will let Him; and if
you will let Him, He will keep you..."

"...If you have lost the blessing through a failure to promptly obey, do
not be utterly discouraged, but begin over again and the Lord will restore
you.  But do not trifle with God again; pray and believe for His help to obey 
lest a worse thing come upon you..."

"...When they are happy they are in danger of thinking themselves better
than they are, of not watching and praying as they should; and when they 
are not happy they are likely to get discouraged, cast away their confidence 
in the Lord, and conclude that it is useless for them to try to be holy.
The safest way is to pay attention to your facts and let your feelings
take care of themselves..."

"...Finally, whole-hearted and continued consecration and self-denial, 
earnest prayer, joyful and diligent study of God's word, deep humility 
before the Lord, aggressive work for others, and humble definite testimony
to the blessing, will surely establish us in holiness, and keep us from
falling..."

-- Brengle

Scriptural references my church uses in its doctrine of sanctification:
(I have not looked each of these up, and therefore cannot attest to their
context.)

Jeremiah 31:31-34
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Malachi 3:2-3
Matthew 3:11-12
Luke 3:16-17
John 7:37-39
John 14:15-23
John 17:6-20
Acts 1:5
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 15:8-9
Romans 6:11-13,19
Romans 8:1-4, 8-14
Romans 12:1-2
2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 5:16-25
Ephesians 3:14-21
Ephesians 5:17-18, 25-27
Philippians 3:10-15
Colossians 3:1-17
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
Hebrews 4:9-11
Hebrews 10:10-17
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:2

"Christian Perfection," "perfect love"

Deuteronomy 30:6
Matthew 5:43-48
Matthew 22:37-40
Romans 12:9-21
Romans 13:8-10
1 Corinthians 13
Philippians 3:10-15
Hebrews 6:1
1 John 4:17-18

"Heart Purity"

Matthew 5:8
Acts 15:8-9
1 Peter 1:22
1 John 3:3

"Baptism with the Holy Spirit"

Jeremiah 31:31-34
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Malachi 3:2-3
Matthew 3:11-12
Luke 3:16-17
Acts 1:5
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 15:8-9

"Fullness of the blessing"

Romans 15:29

"Christian Holiness"

Matthew 5:1-7:29
John 15:1-11
Romans 12:1-15:3
2 Corinthians 7:1
Ephesians 4:17-5:20
Philippians 1:9-11
Philippians 3:12-15
Colossians 2:20-3:17
1 Thessalonians 3:13
1 Thessalonians 4:7-8
1 Thessalonians 5:23
2 Timothy 2:19-22
Hebrews 10:19-25
Hebrews 12:14
Hebrews 13:20-21
1 Peter 1:15-16
2 Peter 1:1-11
2 Peter 3:18
Jude 20-21

A song:

Purify my heart! Let it be as gold and precious silver.
Purify my heart! Let it as gold; pure gold
Refined as fire. 
My heart's one desire it to be holy
Set apart for You Lord.
I choose to be holy
Set apart for You my Master;
Ready to do Your will.

(Off a tape by "Liberation" which is a group of young African singers.)

    >Refined as fire. 
    
    I've also heard this line sung as "Refiner's fire"

You may have it right.  I'll try and check later.

Works for me!  :-)