Conference yukon::christian_v7

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
          -<  ...by Believing, you might have Life more abundantly. >-
================================================================================
Note 6.395              Prayer Requests (prayers in 7.*)              395 of 399
GIDDAY::BURT "Chele Burt - CSC Sydney, DTN 7355693"  34 lines   6-JUN-1993 21:51
                               -< wisdom wanted >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,

This is a cross between Prayer, Praise and confusion.

History
My husband Greg's best friend is Peter. They went to school together. Peter
and his wife Judi have 2 children (one of whom is Greg's goddaughter). P & J
separated, but not divorced. They are not Christians. When David was born, we
discussed the matter of his godparents with our minister, and agreed that we
would ask Peter to be one of David's godparents, with the hope that David
would be used in part as the Lords tool for Peter.
Peter's parents, Malcolm (stepfather) and Pamela, are not Christians either.
Pam has become a very dear friend of mine since David's birth. They both know
of our faith, and have been sceptical until recently. We have prayed that the
light would touch them, we've prayed for healing and been answered.
Their business is in financial trouble, so they're depressed about that, and
about their son and family.
Pam & Malcolm went to church yesterday, and seemed to be open to the lessons.
The only difficulty they had with the lesson was the discussion of the occult,
and of evil. Apart from not really believing in such things, they don't
understand the WHY's. Why is there evil? Why does evil seem to flourish, and
corruption to conquer? Why do the innocent suffer?
I am going to spend a week with these friends soon. I don't have the answers.
I know where to get some of them (ask the Boss ;)), but I'm feeling
intimidated by the scope of all this.
So, all in all, I'd like some prayer please, for Pam & Malcolm, for Peter and
Judi & girls, and for me, and some wisdom....

I'd also like to discuss the "Why's" in a separate note.

Lots of love,

Chele

    

> Why is there evil? Why does evil seem to flourish, and
> corruption to conquer? Why do the innocent suffer?
    
    Some books on these questions come to mind, but I can't recall specific
    titles.  C.S. Lewis especially seems to have addressed this.  Maybe
    someone else can fill in some of the blanks in my memory!
    
    I'll play the "first thing that comes to your mind" game, though, and
    include the following.  It, too, addresses some of these questions, and
    I can gladly say that I know the author.
    
Psalms 73:1 Truly God is good to Israel, even to such as are of a clean 
    heart. 
  2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. 
  3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the 
    wicked. 
  4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. 
  5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other 
    men. 
  6 Therefore pride compasseth them about as a chain; violence covereth them 
    as a garment. 
  7 Their eyes stand out with fatness: they have more than heart could wish. 
  8 They are corrupt, and speak wickedly concerning oppression: they speak 
    loftily. 
  9 They set their mouth against the heavens, and their tongue walketh 
    through the earth. 
 10 Therefore his people return hither: and waters of a full cup are wrung 
    out to them. 
 11 And they say, How doth God know? and is there knowledge in the most High? 
 12 Behold, these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world; they increase in 
    riches. 
 13 Verily I have cleansed my heart in vain, and washed my hands in 
    innocency. 
 14 For all the day long have I been plagued, and chastened every morning. 
 15 If I say, I will speak thus; behold, I should offend against the 
    generation of thy children. 
 16 When I thought to know this, it was too painful for me; 
 17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end. 
 18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down 
    into destruction. 
 19 How are they brought into desolation, as in a moment! they are utterly 
    consumed with terrors. 
 20 As a dream when one awaketh; so, O Lord, when thou awakest, thou shalt 
    despise their image. 
 21 Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. 
 22 So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. 
 23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right 
    hand. 
 24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. 
 25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I 
    desire beside thee. 
 26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and 
    my portion for ever. 
 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed 
    all them that go a whoring from thee. 
 28 But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the 
    Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works. 
    
    
    Mark L.

� Apart from not really believing in such things, they don't understand the
� WHY's. Why is there evil? Why does evil seem to flourish, and corruption to
� conquer? Why do the innocent suffer? 

Hi Chele,

This world is a preparation.  Not the real thing.  'People' speak and
behave as if God were 'on trial' for His very existance.  As though He had
to answer for every wrong or discomfort in this world, every inequality
that we can imagine. 

The truth is rather different.  We - mankind - have rebelled against the 
most loving and generous God you can imagine.  We have rejected Him and 
tried by every means we can to exclude Him from our world.  When He came to 
join us here, we even murdered Him.

We, mankind, have chosen sin and evil, instead of God and good.  As a 
result, all sorts of things we think are terrible come into our lives, 
because we have chosen to walk our way, instead of the way He has designed 
us to behave.

How can we know that God is 'loving and generous'? 
 - Because we haven't been blotted out in total agony.  He still lets us
   enjoy this world He has made.  The natural things of this world, made by
   Him, are still good to eat, beautiful to look at.  We can exist with
   pleasure. 

 - Because He has given us individual and personal hope for a total
   forgiveness from this rebellion - not everyone passes their existance in
   total despair and dread. 

Whatever can God expect to get from this mess?  Why bother?

 - Because He is looking for people to learn to love Him.  Not cupboard 
   love, which obeys when He's looking, or when there's a reward in sight, 
   but people who make a place in their hearts for Him which is bigger than 
   their self-love.  Which worships Him when He isn't there - or at least, 
   isn't in sight.  Which chooses His way when it hurts.

This is part of the training plan He has for us for eternity.  That's
what's REAL.  This world can't be 'the last word', 'the ultimate thing'. 
It's rotten, and decaying.  He asks us to exercise a faith to be stronger 
than our rebellion, and stand for Him in the face of opposition.  This 
builds up 'what we are to be' for eternity.  But it takes faith to step 
into this which we, in our sin, cannot see.  It's foolishness to those who 
are still living at enmity with God.

Our bodies will die eventually.  So their outward preservation is a 
somewhat fruitless aim.  Keep fit, ok, but don't make that the only thing 
in your life, because you have to leave this body behind in the end.  When 
you get your glorified body.

If righteousness were seen to prosper, and innocence kept you safe, how 
many would be lulled into the false sense that their own goodness was
enough?  The best that we can be doesn't take us out of the rebellion.  He 
wants us to love Him actively and positively.  Like He loves us, as far as 
the cross, and bearing our sin.  He doesn't want our loves and aims to be 
tagretted on this world, but on the one in His presence.  So He has stood 
back from judging us for a while.  Given us a time of grace, to learn about 
salvation, and for those who will to take hold of it for themselves, to 
receive His righteousness; to demonstrate to Him what it's worth, and to 
have some degree of faithfulness to offer to Him when we meet Him....

God is not going to impose His will on anyone.  He maintains the universe
so that it sustains life.  All that is good comes from Him.  But Malcolm
and Pamela take all the earthly goodness, and don't acknowledge the loving
and generous Source.  Neither will they accept the much greater things He 
wants to give them.  

 - Like the child who plays with the box, which will soon break, but
ignores the beautiful present it contained.  If you take away the box, it
cries, and depending on it's temperament, may lose it's temper too much to
take the proffered gift....

God doesn't take away *all* He's given us, but sometimes steps back where
we've insisted on *our* way (which saves us from instant judgement), and
the enemy moves in there instead.  Then we complain that God hasn't
protected us against the enemy, but we don't want God to be there either...

� Why do the innocent suffer? 

Who is truly innocent?  Man is born sinful.  It is in his nature.  He sins 
because he is sinful.  Not, as some would say, that 'he is sinful once he has 
sinned'.  It is the sinfulness that we inherit.  So even an unborn baby 
needs salvation.  And 'deserves' as much as you or I to be aware of that.  
God, the Judge of all the world, knows our hearts.  He doesn't judge by 
outward appearances, like people do.  He designed us as we are, and on the 
spiritual side, we are totally visible to Him.  He hasn't overlooked the 
smallest child lost in the ruins of mid-european war.  Just as He has never 
overlooked the saints who, in Russia, were confined in asylums and injected 
with drugs to confuse and destroy their very reason.  Their reward in 
heaven is a very real one, and not just a panacea.

If you want verses on these, let me know.  I'd start with Romans 8:18.. 
and 2 Corinthians 4:17, bearing in mind Paul's experiences as recorded in 2 
Corinthians 11:23-29.

Psalm 73 as Mark quoted is the key struggle of seeing evil prosper, while 
virtue is sneered out of sight - until we look from God's perspective 
instead of the temporal snapshot.

The 'prince of the power of the air' is satan.  he's pitted against the 
LORD, but is beaten all the way.  The only people who suffer are those who 
choose to stay under his control.  For those who take salvation instead, 
"all things work together for good..."

						God bless
							Andrew

    Chele,
    
    These are just some thoughts. It seems to me that evil originated when
    Lucifer first began to covet the worship given to God and chose to defy 
    and war against God. That was the first step outside of the will of
    God. Then humanity, under the influence of Satan and out of a sinful nature 
    chose to remain separated from God, thus aiding the spread of evil and 
    helping it to flourish. God must have tremendous respect for free will, to 
    be all powerful and yet refrain from "fixing things" or simply destroying 
    us. And He must have foreseen the possibility of the misuse of free will, 
    yet He values it. I believe God endures tremendous pain because of our 
    willfulness and stubbornness, because of all the pain we suffer of our own
    devising and of the devising of Satan and yet He does not force us. 
    
    And God's infinite mercy and love for us can be seen in that he did not 
    leave us to play this out to it's logical conclusion (and I hate to imagine
    what that would be). Instead He sent Jesus. Jesus shows us the reverse side
    of free will. He used his free will to remain in God, and never has such a
    presence and power been seen in a person as can be seen in the life of 
    Jesus. I think it had to be that way for us to see. Like in the parable of
    the vineyard, God sent prophet after prophet, used person after person to 
    reveal Himself to His people, and yet they abused the ones sent and turned
    back to their lives of sin. So finally He sent His Son. And like in the 
    parable, we killed him. Jesus suffered at the hands of Satan and the hands
    of man, all the temptations and the worst that evil had to offer - he was 
    villified, beaten, scourged, spat upon, mocked, publicly humiliated and 
    crucified. We deserve God's wrath for that alone. But because Jesus 
    remained in the will of the Father, because He willing laid down his life 
    for us, for our salvation, the bondage of evil and sin was broken, for the
    first time since Lucifer's initial transgression. Jesus offers us new life.
    We've been forgiven for the worst that we can do; if we choose to believe 
    in him and to let him dwell within us, choose daily to yield our will to 
    God, then we have life and have it abundantly. 
    
    But humanity still has free will and the sinful nature still exists. Satan
    still exists and still works to blind man to the truth of Christ - that's 
    really his only recourse now. Unless mankind chooses Christ and chooses to
    be obedient, then evil will continue to flourish and corruption will appear
    to conquer. And the innocent will suffer. We are so bound to one another 
    that our choices impact one another, for those we know and those we do not.
    We see it clearly when we transgress and hurt those closest to us, say in 
    the impact of adultery on a family. But I think that same principle 
    applies on a larger scale, a societal scale if you will. Evil is hatred 
    and destruction, bent on destroying what God has deemed good, and works 
    toward those ends and uses whatever means or men are at its disposal. The 
    Bible tells us that this earth is Satan's realm, we see the working of evil
    all around us, that's why it's so important that we choose for Christ and 
    that we allow His light to shine through us. And that we remember that 
    corruption only appears to conquer for a time, but in reality Christ has 
    conquered.
    
    Rebecca  
    

	Rebecca,

	That was wonderful!  Thank you.

	Karen

    Rebecca,
    
    Thanks for writiing.  I really enjoyed it.
    
    God Bless You, Sis!
    Nancy

Thankyou, Andrew, Rebecca and all.

I still feel pretty intimidated by the idea of giving testimony - a major 
attack of the "Why Me's?". 
It would be SO easy to continue on in the cosy manner of the last few years 
"Chele and Greg, well, there actually pretty normal - for Christians" or 
"they're a bit funny, they're Christians". A kind of gracious acceptance of 
our "oddness".

More references would be most welcome. 

Thanks again,

Chele

Chele, I agree, witnessing to friends and relations, who you've known for
years is the hardest... - changing a comfort/safety zone of personal
relationship [ a prophet is not without honour, except in his own country
Matthew 13:57 ].  While we know it's a responsibility and a privilege to
offer the greatest thing this life has to offer to those who are humanly
speaking dearest to us, there's the fear of rejection and making what was
comfortable into something that leaves a bad taste.  The fear of
embarrassment at remembering, every time you meet...  I wonder what the
comparable feeling will be on entering heaven to find them missing.  Or to
find them there, having been told by someone else... 

That sort of situation has to be handled very delicately, because of the 
regular contact - they have to feel comfortable with you as a person 
generally, before they can even consider relating to what you believe.  In 
fact, often friendships which go back to pre-conversion days without having 
any significant change in character as a result of conversion are 'out of 
reach' until the conversion communication hits where it's real.  Mostly the 
unconverted friend wants to keep it at a philosophy level - that's how you 
think, and this is how I think.  They can react pretty strongly when 
suddenly it seems to affect the things you do, and not just be a matter for 
idle discussion.  They want to keep it superficial, so it doesn't impact 
them or their lifestyle.  But, as we know, it has to touch the whole lot, 
or it's nothing....  Don't change suddenly now, or it will seem (and be) 
artificial.  Let the LORD shine through, being ready to respond with what 
He gives...

Usually non-Christians have a lot of misconceptions about what a Christian
is, and what it all means.  To reach them realistically, you have to start
from where they are, and nurse them out of various mental / spiritual
blocks, asking the LORD to work through it...  Not forcing it on them, but
listening for when they're ready to be a little more open than usual.  If
they find you're able to talk rationally (!) about 'Christianity', or
'God', or whatever they want to tag the topic, AND to stop when they've had
all they can take for a while, they'll feel easier about coming back for
more another time.  They've known you long enough to be comfortable in the
secular plane; it may be a helful opener to ask something like "What do you
think a Christian is", after they've described you as one!, or any one of a
range of questions about the relationship between man and God, His interest
(or lack of) in today's world...  With the 'godparent' relationship, you
could ask them what they think it means / involves / implies, as a
responsibility etc, and use that as a starting place.  If they are ready to 
hear what yuo have to say, their input will turn into brief questions and 
openers.  If they're not, it's likely to stay at describing 'what they 
think'.  Listen.  To them, and for what the LORD says, because He may give
you a little thought to tag on the end which they can take away and chew
over, to make them rethink where they stand.  So that next time, it can be 
built on.

There's so much that could be said - but ultimately it's what He gives to 
you at the crucial time.  Let us know when you're to be with them, and we 
can be praying very specifically for your every contact with them leading 
towards their salvation.

 - Are they open to "what the Bible says"?
 - Would they call themselves 'Christians'? - probably so, if they've asked 
   Greg to be a godfather to their daughter, and Peter was willing to stand 
   as a godfather for David.  

This could lead to a train of questions and conclusions....

	- Is 'Christianity' a superficial convenience; a polite expression 
	  which means little more than well-intentioned superstition.
	- If there is some reality behind it, should we expect it to have 
	  any bearing on our everyday lives...  Our character ... behaviour.
	- Which is the more meaningful, claiming the name of 'Christian', or 
	  the behavioural evidence behind it...
	- Is there *really* a God??? [ what they think here has to be 
	  understood honestly - and it's a question they should face... ]
	- If there's a God, what would you expect His interest in us to be;
	  'wealth' or 'character'?  Something that's a 'real' us, to last 
	  beyond this life, or things which He as Creator put here to last 
	  only our lifetime...

I tend to ask questions as much to make the other person think where they 
stand, and what the implications of the answers - positions - are, as much 
as to find out, even what they think, which may be more evident to us then 
it is to them!

Sometimes it's a matter of opening doors of awareness, so they realise the 
meaning of things they've known as words for years...  

But I've woffled on enough here.  Really, it's to say 'we'll be praying',
and to try to offer a few suggestions.  Whether they're what you might use,
or what you'd not feel was suitable.

References to follow later!!!

						God bless
								Andrew

� More references would be most welcome. 

Chele, my note was pushing it for size, so I've put the annotated version
in a public area on ICTHUS:: (42.747).  You can copy it from:

	ICTHUS::SYS$PUBLIC:WHYEVIL.TXT		! ASCII text version
	ICTHUS::SYS$PUBLIC:WHYEVIL.PS		! Postscript, from Document
	ICTHUS::SYS$PUBLIC:WHYEVIL.SDML		! Document source

The Document version has the references as footnotes, but I'm afraid I 
haven't typed them out in full - only the refs.  I used the NIV, so the 
relevance may be clearest using that.

Let me know if there's areas you want more references on - though I don't 
guarantee ;-)

							God bless
								Andrew

    These notes trigger a thought, that if you can get the book, "Living
    Proof" by Petersen, it should help when building close relationships
    and talking about the Lord.  It's pretty much what was described here,
    that people should be in relationships and through those relationships
    introduce people to Christ.  Excellent and practical resource!
    
    - Don Randall

     SERMON PREACHED BY THE REVEREND ANDREW C. MEAD AT THE CHURCH OF
       THE ADVENT BOSTON ON THE TWENTY-FIRST SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST
                   OCTOBER 16, 1994  PROPER 24  YEAR B

Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief.
							Isaiah 53:4-12

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.

There is no more serious obstacle to faith in God than the problem of evil,
pain, and suffering.  Yet it is precisely this problem that the Gospel of
Christ addresses first and foremost.  It is strange, when you think about
it, that we Christians do not more regularly and immediately face the
problem of evil, pain, and suffering with the answer that God himself gave
to it, gives to it, and will give to it world without end.  That is, with
the Lamb who was slain before the foundation of the world.  For God is not
just the creator, he is also the saviour and the sanctifier; we mean this
when we bless God with the names given by Jesus: Blessed be God, Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit.

To believe in the God of Jesus Christ, that is, the God of the Gospel, is
to know that God had taken account of and responsibility for the possibility
and presence of evil, and that he has decisively overcome it.  First of all,
he did this by creating free spirits, angels and men, who must exercise
their free will to be the creatures they are -- reasonable, capable of love,
responsible for their decisions.  He seems to have created freedom because
love requires freedom to exist.  Angels and men must therefore choose to
love, to love God, to love their place in God's world, to love their fellow
citizens in God's world.

God foresaw, before the foundation of the world, what was involved in such
an enterprise, and he did not abandon his creation.  On the contrary, he
involved himself in it, intimately.  He foresaw the devastating possibilities
of the abuse of freedom, both by angels (that is, those who chose to become
demons) and by human beings, all of whom have become sinners.  He not only
provided a way back to grace for us when we have disgraced ourselves, but
he also provided a healing remedy for the disgrace itself.  "In the world,"
said Jesus to his disciples, "you will have tribulation.  But be of good
cheer; I have overcome the world."

The "Servant Songs" in the Book of Isaiah were inspired at a time when
Israel had been through the catastrophe of the destruction of Jerusalem
and the Babylonian exile.  It was a time of indescribable pain -- such as
we see in the Lamentations of Jeremiah.  The prophet had been despised and
rejected for carrying God's word to the community, a man of sorrows and
acquainted with grief, one from whom men hide their faces.  The faithful
remnant in the community itself could likewise be described in words of
the Song of the Suffering Servant, which is our first lesson today.  Yet
there is something transcendent about this scripture, rising above even
the most acute sufferings of ancient Israel.  The song gathers into itself
all the sufferings of all God's servants, all the sufferings of the whole
people of God in every time and place.  And yet there is more still.

When the first disciples were trying to come to terms with the appalling
injustice and scandal of Holy Week, there was no portion of scripture that
shed more light on the suffering and death of Jesus than our scripture
from Isaiah today.  We read it on Good Friday.  It was the hardest, and
the most important lesson of Easter; namely, as the risen Jesus impressed
upon them himself -- that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer, and
be killed, and after three days rise from the dead.  Both before and after
Jesus' death, this was the most painful, and the most salutary, truth of
the Gospel.  "It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to
grief."  And we must realize that He whose will it was to bruise him was
none other than the same God who underwent the bruising personally, for
us and for our salvation:  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.  That is why
St. Peter, preaching the first sermon on Pentecost, told his hearers that
Jesus was risen, because it "was impossible for death to hold him."

The awesome transfer of pain and suffering from the backs of the unrighteous
into the sacred heart of Jesus, the heart that was broken and pierced on the
cross and poured out blood and water (the very birth waters of the church),
that is the very center of the Gospel.  It is actually the center of the
cosmos as well, the revealing of the heart and purpose of God himself.
Whenever we think of the problem of pain and suffering, we need to recall
this greatest of Gospel truths and see that God has thought of the problem
well in advance, answering it with his own heart-breaking and ravishing
provision, the death and resurrection of God our Saviour.  When old Abraham
was prepared, for obedience's sake, even to sacrifice his and Sarah's only
son Isaac; when the angel called out "Do not lay your hand upon the lad"
and provided a ram caught in the thicket instead, Abraham called the name
of that place Moriah, for "on the mount of the Lord it shall be provided."
Two thousand years later, midway between Abraham and us, God offered up
himself in the person of the Son, a voluntary sacrifice that mysteriously
carries all sacrifices in it, healing all wounds, cleansing all sins,
repairing all infirmities.  On Mount Calvary it was provided.  As we sing
at Easter: "Jesus lives! Thy terrors now can no longer, death, appall us."

Week by week we re-present this sacrifice in the eucharistic mystery, the
sacrifice of the Mass.  It is not 2000 years away, it is here present,
because Christ is risen and lives and reigns.  As you witness, you respond,
as you participate, as you receive holy communion, know that here is the
Lamb who was sacrificed before the foundation of the world.  It was the
will of the Lord to bruise him.  He gave his life as a ransom for many.
He is the great high priest who has passed through the heavens, and he is
the spotless Lamb who has taken away the sins of the world, even yours and
mine.  Let us let him have his way with us, receive his grace and mercy,
and rise up renewed and refreshed.  O come let us adore him, and let us
love one anther as he has loved us.  Amen.

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.

Thank you John.  

� "Jesus lives! Thy terrors now can no longer, death, appall us."

That's a tremendous one.  It embodies the full power of His victory for us
at Calvary.  Death has been vanquished, and with it, our judgement.  We are
liberated into righteousness! 

� The "Servant Songs" in the Book of Isaiah were inspired at a time when
� Israel had been through the catastrophe of the destruction of Jerusalem
� and the Babylonian exile.

I gather you would take multiple authors for the book of Isaiah...  I see 
his songs as a reflection more of personal rejection, giving depth for the 
Holy Spirit to express the suffering of the One to come...

Good one either way... thanks again.

							Andrew