Conference yukon::christian_v7

In Numbers 6:2-21, instructions are given for anyone who wants to commit a 
special time of his life in worship to the LORD.  The Nazirite vow (nothing 
to do with the place, Nazareth) implied total abstinence from anything 
derived from the vine, including grapes and alcohol, and no contact with 
any dead person, or even formal mourning for them.

During this dedication time, the hair was allowed to grow, and the hait 
which grew during this time was a token of the commitment.  At the end of 
the time of separation, an offering would be made, and the hair which had 
grown during the time would also be shaved off and put on the offering 
fire.  For this hair to be that grown during the dedication alone, the vow 
started with the head being shaved.

Generally this was for a fixed limited time, as Paul observed in Acts 
21:26-27.  For some, it was more a lifelong dedication, from the LORD like 
Samson, or by choice, like the Recabites in Jeremiah 35:6.

The problem with the Jews in Acts 21 was not that they observed the law 
themselves, but that they taught that to follow Jesus, it was NECESSARY to 
follow the law.  The big contention was circumcision, which Paul hit 
against time and time again.  You get his frustration at their legalism in 
Galatians 5 ... especially v12.  The popularly named 'Council at 
Jerusalem', in Acts 15 addressed this very issue.

It is interesting that while Paul insisted on the irrelevance of 
circumcision for Christians, he still accepted it as an essential feature 
of Judaism.  Following the decision at the council in Acts 15, he himself 
circumcised Timothy, whose mother was Jewish, but whose father wasn't.  
He wanted Timothy, as a Jewish Christian, to receive the fullness of both 
inheritances.

The Jerusalem Jews had been told that Paul was a renegade, denying the
faith, teaching other Jews who didn't live in Israel that they didn't need
to obey the law, or follow any Jewish practices (Acts 21:21), whereas, in 
fact, he had not been doing anything of the sort.  He had been teaching
gentiles that they did not need to become Jews in order to become
Christians, and telling Jews that they should not put this burden on
gentiles.  Nevertheless, the ultra-orthodox Jewish Christians in Jerusalem
would see Christianity mostly as an offshoot of Judaism; they would 
probably feel more akin to orthodox Jews who were non-Christian than they 
would to gentile Christians, and the idea that Moses was not an essential 
to Christainity would seem about blasphemous to them.

Paul's mission was largely to the gentiles.  However, he was still a Jew, 
and had an immense personal burden for their salvation (cf Romans 9:3).  
Jerusalem was very special for him, as were the people there.  He wanted to 
be able to demonstrate the LORD's great salvation, and reconcile the 
legalistic Jews to the great body of Christ which was growing outside 
Israel.  In Jerusalem, he could demonstrate his unity with other Jews by 
observing the personal choice (not law) of the Nazirite vow.  This would 
indicate that he still took the Mosaic laws seriously and personally.  It 
illustrates 1 Corinthians 9:20, where Paul says that he can live like those 
who he is trying to win, in order to show them God's love. "To the Jews I 
became like a Jew to win the Jews.....".  He wasn't betraying what he
believed, but exercising a different dimension of freedom.  No-one - not
even the legalistic Jews - would say he *had* to observe the Nazirite vow
at that time, but by choosing to do so, he demonstrated that he respected
and obeyed the Mosaic laws as a Jew.

Sadly, they didn't stop to think of what this meant, but instead falsely
accused Paul of defiling the temple precincts by taking a gentile where he 
wasn't allowed (Acts 21:29).  Mob rule resulted.  Their loss of blessing, 
while God used it to take Paul to witness to rulers (Acts 24, 25, 26), a Roman 
centurion etc (Acts 26), and also to Rome, and to a certain captive 
audience there... (Acts 26:16;-).

The advice for Paul to take the Nazirite vow was given, not by the
legalistic set, but by the Christian elders, who suggested it as a
demonstrative safeguard.

Hope this helps ... 

						God bless
							Andrew

    Thanks 'rew!
    
    That is very informative.  I really enjoyed the reading and better
    understanding of the custom.  It's funny because I had this discussion
    with Daryl G. last night and was still trying to understand what this
    "be all things to all people" really implies.  While our discussion
    didn't go that route, it was settling in the back of my mind.
    
    How can *we* be *all* things to all people, and still be true to our
    faith?  When Paul went into different cultures, did he adopt the
    culture of that sect?  It doesn't seem so, when he went into Athens,
    I'd say he sort of shook that place up by not confirming to their idol
    worship.  
    
    So what does it mean to be *all* things to *all* people?
    
    Also, I went on to read Acts 24, 25 and 26 and was a
    little puzzled at the fact Paul told the Centurion soldier that he was
    a Roman.  Where was Paul born?  How was he a Roman Jew?  Was he
    converted by faith?  
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

�   How can *we* be *all* things to all people, and still be true to our faith? 

We have to separate our 'culture' from our faith.  The first is disposable. 
The second is rock solid fixed.  The first, we have to be flexible on, not 
to offend those who have different customs; the second we must hold to 
firmly - it describes things which are eternal.  There is always the fringe 
area which is not so easy to define; where we may make mistakes....

Some early missionaries, coming across polygamy, took what seemed to them 
to be the natural step, when the polygamists were saved, of making it a 
condition of salvation that they became monogamists by setting aside all 
but one wife.  Trying to impose the culture they were coming from on a 
totally diferent context.  It made very good reports home.  But in 
practise, it was not realistic.  The wives who were 'discarded' were left
without any provision for livelihood, and turned to prostitution.  There is
a precedent in the Bible for maintaining our commitments and obligations
which the social veneer didn't handle (eg with the Gibeonites, when Joshua 
made the treaty against God's command, but having made it, had to keep it).

That's an example of cultural understanding inhibiting the proper 'being 
all things to all people'.  It's easy to see what should be done in 
retrospect;  Look after the wives you have, but don't take any more (to a 
maximum of one, for unmarried converts).  But at the time, the situation 
wasn't understood sufficiently to handle this.

Conversely, I heard of an unkempt young man, rough shirt, no footwear, etc, 
who entered a standard middle class church, and wandered down to the front, 
finding nowhere to sit on the way.  He sat on the floor at the front, to 
listen to the service, clearly looking (and possibly feeling) very out of 
place.  A church elder left his place, and went and sat next to him.  On 
the floor.  I'm not sure if he removed his shoes too or not, but he cared 
enough to discard some outward trapping of culture, to make the visitor 
feel loved.

�    When Paul went into different cultures, did he adopt the culture of 
�    that sect?  It doesn't seem so, when he went into Athens, I'd say he 
�    sort of shook that place up by not confirming to their idol worship.  

Two different things there.  When Paul went into different cultures, he
usually tried to take the gospel to the Jews first (eg Acts 17:17), because
it related to their basic preparative knowledge of God, as through the Old
Testament. They were the ones chosen by God to take the message to the
world (Exodus 19:6).  If they couldn't receive the message (as was
generally the case), he then went to whatever forum could receive him, and
spoke to be understood.  He most certainly would not adopt the practices or
understanding of any sect, because this would conflict with God's Word, and
his task was - as is ours - to represent the gospel faithfully. 

However, in Athens, he *did* 
   � Start from where they could understand - talking about their multiplicity
     of gods, and homing in on their superstitious safeguard of the 'unknown 
     god', not to condemn (which would have been technically 'right', but 
     inappropriate and unloving), but to open their understanding to the true 
     God.
   � Went to them in their places - the synagogue (v17) the market place (v17),
     the Areopagus (like, debating forum) (v22).
   � Quoted their poets (v28)
   � Worked from where they were, to where they needed to be - from polytheism,
     through philosophy and superstition, to the one God, the Creator of heaven
     and earth, and the salvation He has provided.
    
So  - "to be *all* things to *all* people" means to stand in their shoes as
far as needs, pains, and happinesses go.  To empathise with them.  The
things that matter to them, matter to us.  From our choice.  Not because
we're in bondage to them too, but because we care about people who are, and
we want to help them out of that bondage. 

�    Also, I went on to read Acts 24, 25 and 26 and was a little puzzled at 
�    the fact Paul told the Centurion soldier that he was a Roman.  Where was 
�    Paul born?  How was he a Roman Jew?  Was he converted by faith?  
    
Paul was born in Tarsus, 'no ordinary city'.  Acts 9:11, 21:39, 22:3.  It 
seems likely that this city was given a special status in the empire, so that
citizens of Tarsus had the freedom of the empire - were granted the status of 
Roman citizens.  There were three ways of obtaining Roman citizenship:
	i) As a reward for outstanding service
	ii) By purchase (very expensive)
	iii) By being born into a family of Roman citizenship.

The New Bible Dictionary records that 
 "Tarsus was visited by Antony, favoured by Augustus, his teacher and 
  lifelong friend.  The Roman citizenship of the Tarsian Jews dates 
  probably from Pompey's settlement."

Paul was
	� Born in Tarsus
	� Brought up in Jerusalem
	� Educated under gamaliel (possibly the grandson of Hillel, and the 
	  most honoured rabbi of the 1st century)
	� Achieved membership of the Sanhedrin (casting his vote in Acts 26:10)

The conclusion is that Paul was the member of a family of some means, and 
prominent status (cf his nephew's access to the Jerusalem leaders, in Acts 
23:16,20).

With all this, Paul could communicate with people from all backgrounds.  He
could walk in their culture without compromising his faith..... 

�   Was he converted by faith?  

;-) ?  It was Paul who was used to write Ephesians 2:8:

 "It is by grace you have been saved, though faith - and this not from 
  yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no-one can 
  boast."

							God bless...
								Andrew

    Hey 'rew,
    
    Do you have room for anything else in that brain of yours??? :-)
    
    Thanks... you more then cleared up a lot of my questioning... Now, I'm
    sure I'll have more [I extracted your note]... :-)
    
    I just Praise Him that I can come in here and ask a question and feel
    comfortable know that someone will respond.  
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

blush...  It's only a half-pint brain, and it seems to have reached the
capacity.  If I put anything more in, some goes out...  The cleaner dreads
the time round my desk.  Soon shows me up when there are real scholars on
the job... 

								'rew

    How does one purify their heart and mind from years of drugs, sexual
    immorality, and other asundry worldly behaviors?
    
    I placed this note here because someone whom I care very much about is
    having trouble keeping the mind in subjection.
    
    How do you control your thoughts?  Is there some applicable truth to
    the purification process that Paul had to go through?  When one has
    lived a life of rebelliousness towards God, how do you stop the voices
    in the mind that haunt and suggest things that are ungodly?
    
    Nancy

 I remember who I am and who's I am..occasionally I succumb to such
 thoughts, but I try to stay away from anything that could trigger such
 thoughts.  For me, leaving the TV off much of the time is a big help..
 Listening to good Christian music, reading my Bible, etc also helps..
 Memorizing Scripture is another.  



 Jim 

    The book, "Lifetime Guarantee" deals with this in depth.
    
    There is another book, "Grace Works", which has a chapter on "Grace and
    Addictions", which is excellent.  I'm attempting to get permission to put 
    in in here.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Nancy,
    
    I would think it resides first in the will - with the desire and
    commitment to be dedicated to Christ and purify one's thoughts. From
    there, it's discipline - as Jim says, avoiding as much as possible
    those things that would elicit such thought, where the thoughts arise
    unbidden, rejecting them and replacing them with those thoughts of things 
    pure and lovely, etc. or with scripture, reading the Bible, praise
    songs, prayer, etc. - similar to replacing the negative tapes in our heads 
    so often talked about with positive reinforcement.  It's got to be one of 
    the most difficult things in the world to do - so encourage your friend to 
    have patience with him/her self and not to become discouraged.
    
    Rebecca 
    

    12 Step programs are man's fallible solution.  God isn't interested in
    psychology.  It's time we start calling sin for what it is.
    
    The proper solution is to catch the Bible bug and ask the Lord to give
    you the power of Acts 1:8 (and no it's not talking about tongues) to
    help you live for Him.
    
    Mike

 re .11

 AMEN!  Reduce those 12 steps to about 4 and take them on the Romans Road!





Jim

    (all due respect to my highly esteemed brethren...:-)
    
    The 12 steps were lifted from the Bible.  It's not the steps that
    bother me, it's the notion of "any 'god' will do" that weakens the
    program (in my view).
    
    That said, let me heartily recommend the Romans Road (i.e., read,
    prayerfully, and absorb the book of Romans....).
    
    We're not who we once were, beloved...that "old man" is dead, and we
    are raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenlies.  *That's*
    reality - despite what we see with our eyes.
    
    I also second Bing's recommendation for "Lifetime Guarantee".
    
    Your friend should keep in mind that through His one act, He has
    PERFECTED FOREVER those of us who ARE BEING perfected.   This is an
    awesome mystery to contemplate; and one which deserves better treatment
    than I can give in a quick reply.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Steve

RE:      <<< Note 168.13 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>

       
   > The 12 steps were lifted from the Bible.  It's not the steps that
   > bother me, it's the notion of "any 'god' will do" that weakens the
   > program (in my view).
    

     Agreed..its the "any god" aspect that bothers me.


        
>    I also second Bing's recommendation for "Lifetime Guarantee".
    
 

     How about that...I'm reading it now ;-)



   Jim

Food for thought.

Sometimes a bland rice cake or (uncaoted) popcorn can keep you away
from those nasty potato chips that are so delicious but insidiously
fattening.  This is a sort of "replacement theology" that it okay:
to replace bad thoughts and struggles with good ones.

The trouble with temptation is that it is so  v e r y  attractive.
And we think we can eat one Lays potato chip.  And before we know
it, we've downed half the bag and lost the battle, and wonder if
we had any resistence at all.

Philippians 4:8  Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever
things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure,
whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there
be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Finally, like dieting, this must be an active replacement.  Elijah
shooed the vultures from his sacrifice to God staying awake in
dreadful darkness to do so.  Easy?  Hardly.  Doable?  Absolutely...
when relying upon God to come through on His promise that He will
not allow any temptation except there be a way of escape - or to
endure it by His power.  Our power?  No.  His.

    The other problem with 12-steps is that they focus on the
    problem/sympton instead of the cure.  How long do you have to go
    through treatment before you are cured and are of use to the Body of
    Christ?  How long do you need treatment to be a witness for His glory? 
    This attitude has infected the church too.  Even Christians are
    continually worried about self and their problems.  The best way to get
    over self and your problems is to serve others.

>The best way to get over self and your problems is to serve others.

I like that, Mike.  Got some good nuggets these past couple of days.
Thanks folks.

MM

    Speaking of our mind playing tricks...
    
    I saw the the word bitter i/o better in your not Bob.
    
    I also believe that our psyche plays a big part in who we are in
    Christ.  But I doubt seriously how I define psyche is the modern day
    version.
    
    I believe our psyche to mean all those things that effect our lives,
    experiences and genetics which form our self image in the sight of God. 
    Which could also mean God lacking in our self image.
    
    I've been down this path before in the previous version of CHRISTIAN,
    so in order save time, I'd like to post this again here:
    

             <<< ATLANA::DUB1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V6.NOTE;1 >>>
        -< See 642.* - Conference rollover, Friday 2/27 @5pm EST (USA) >-
================================================================================
Note 374.26               Self Image and the Christian                  26 of 96
JULIET::MORALES_NA                                   75 lines   4-AUG-1992 11:25
                    -< Another Angle of the Same thing ??? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Sandy,

I still believe that self image is important.  

When our lives have been thrown out of balance by sin/shame everything changes 
and that which appears lucid becomes tainted, like looking through a dirty 
window.  What you see behind, is still the *same* thing, but the view is dirty 
from the stains on the window.

I see shame producing different results, as it affects our self image and 
ability to have a loving relationship with Christ:

1. shame - guilt - humility - salvation
2. shame - guilt - humility/humiliation - salvation
3. shame - guilt - humiliation - lost

Shame leads to guilt, and that guilt can lead to humility and eventually to 
salvation.  For others, the shame leads to guilt, humiliation and a sense of 
being completely and unreachably lost.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly that Christ needs to be the center of our 
lives, I propose to you that the process in getting there (based on childhood 
experiences), can be a long, difficult haul for the child that suffers from 
humiliation.

Our self image or mirror comes from:

    Parents / Authorities

In the Old Testament, God ordained by the law that if a man is caught 
breaking a law that the sons would bear the humiliation for generations and 
oftimes the consequences. (Cain banished and his people would be marked.)
Exodus 34:6-7

Children mirror their image in their parents.  If a parent is neglectful, 
unstable, deceitful, physically or sexually abusing, then the child has the 
"God-given shame" to know that is wrong, but the wounded child takes the 
parent's shame or sin and applies it to themselves.  When one of these 
children (it could be an adult who comes from this environment) accepts 
Christ as Savior, their salvation spawns hope beyond measure.  

The disconnect is that they are still carrying the sin/attitude of the 
parents.  Yes, God forgave them of their sin, and that is a miracle on its 
own merit.  But the wounded child cannot be forgiven for their father's 
(lineage) sins.  So once again that image can be tainted by sin (that which 
is not their own).

However, if salvation occurs while the child is still under the direct 
influence of their parents, who are abusive or dysfunctional, the child can 
grow into an adult who rarely has victory in their Christian walk.  They will 
become active in the church for a while, then temptation comes and due to the 
shame of their inability to overcome their father's sin, they abandon 
Christianity.  But, like a see-saw the desire to "do right" will bring them 
back and forth through churches, temporarily serving God, but never 
victorious for consistent Christian service.  

The condemnation of their self image creates an aura of "I'm not good enough 
to serve God."  Negative self criticisms like, "I don't deserve a place of 
service for God" or "I'll never be enough for God" mirrors and the image 
becomes distorted as to how God views his children.

Granted *we* never are enough.  But there comes a point in ones life when 
acceptance of *never* being enough is balanced by the grace and mercy of our 
Lord Jesus Christ, and not the knot deep within the pit of our stomachs that 
reeks havoc in the heart.  (Romans 7 & 8)

With this in mind, Sandy, can you really assert that a person's self image is 
not important to the very vitality of Christianity?

Nancy




    
    

    re .17
    
    I agree.
    
    I believe much of it is understanding who we are "in Christ".  If I see
    myself as a drug addict, then I will probably act like a drug addict. 
    If I see myself as a child of God; a person of infinite worth to the
    God of the universe; a person with a new, righteous nature; a saint by
    the grace of God, then I will desire to abide in Him and I will tend to
    act like who I am.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

 AMEN, Mike!

 Since I've got involved in various ministries of my church, my life
 has changed considerably.  I don't have time to think of whatever my
 problems may be, and I encounter people with "real" problems that make
 mine non-existant.


 
Jim


 
 

    Getting involved in serving others is paramount in following Christ. 
    However, one must be able to see themselves as a Child of God and this
    goes back to self image.
    
    :-)
    
    I'm not purporting anything other then our value in Christ... but
    believe me there are many a saved person who never knows the joy of
    their salvation due to an improper self image.
    
    

    Hey Jimbo,
    
    Tell me did you hesitate in serving God when you first went to your
    church?  If so, what stopped you and what corrected the hesitation?
    
    :-)
    
    

    I always thought that God didn't want to know when I was having
    problems or thoughts that, to my mind, lessened my faith or trust in
    Him. I thought that, by having these thoughts, ideas, temptations, that
    I was less of a Christian and must on no account let God know that I
    was being tempted in this way (I know - He knows everything!). 
    
    Anyway, that was MY muddled way of thinking. So I tended to struggle on
    alone. God MUSTN'T know that I was having a hard time and, as for
    actually confiding in another Christian - WELL! They wouldn't think
    much of me at all, would they?!
    
    I have learned the hard way that, actually there is no way I can either
    hide my thoughts from God or struggle on bravely and heroically alone.
    So - if I do find that I'm tempted now or find a thought that I
    shouldn't have creeping into my head, I do exactly what that song
    with the beautiful words and horrible tune tells me to do: I take it to
    the Lord in prayer. Might as well - He knows anyway! I've got nothing
    to lose by asking for His help.
    Just a quick "arrow" prayer can make so much difference. If I find that
    the SAME problem keeps cropping up, I'll swallow my independence and
    pride, let down my barriers and ASK for help from one of my Christian
    friends, or from the pastoral worker. I no longer feel guilty about
    this. If you have a calling from God to counsel others in their time of
    need, how utterly depressing if no-one comes to share their problems
    with you. How very frustrating when you KNOW that people are struggling
    but are too polite to bother you. 
    There are situations, of course, which need long-term counselling and
    help, but this is how I deal with the day-to-day ones. 

  Self image :

  When we see the image of Christ formed in ourselves then all our
  problems concerning self-worth go away.

    re .24
    
    Amen, Julie!  The time that we think we can least go to Him is the time we 
    need Him most.  We can come to the throne of grace with confidence
    because of what Christ has done for us.
    
    Heb  4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace,
    that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
    
    
    Re .26
    
    And another Amen for Bob!
    
    I was just reading this morning in Colossians (seen 9.last).  Col 2:2
    says, "that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together
    in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full
    assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God's
    mystery, that is, Christ Himself,".
    
    When I think of psychology, there is man's psychology, and there's
    God's psychology.  Man's psychology tries to explain ourselves apart
    from God and seeks to meet peoples needs apart from God.  God's psychology 
    is for man to understand who we are in Christ and who He created us to be. 
    His psychology recognizes God the Father as the source.  He is the only
    one who can truly meet our needs.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

	When I struggle in this area, which is far too often, I
	try to "take my thoughts and make them obey Christ".  Sometimes,
	I'll hear a song, and a twisted version of it from my college
	days will get stuck in my head, to where it's going round and
	round without end.  I will usually try to sing a praise song,
	and most times, that gets rid of that song.  If not, I pray, usually
	in tongues (as I don't know exactly what to pray).

	Other times, I find myself not trying to make my thoughts obey
	Christ, and will let them wander down paths they ought not.  It
	takes time in prayer and repentence to "clean-up" after that...

	Karen

    Julie, sounds like you could use a little lesson on grace too. 
    Legalism has done some awful things to some potentially great
    Christians.

    yes... but your note was great anyway! :-)

    re .29
    
    Mike, I don't quite follow you. Can you explain?

    re: service
    
    Yes, I'm all for each member of the body discerning his or her gifting
    and employing that in service of the body and the local community. 
    However, I've seen (MUCH too frequently!) the "walking wounded" attempt
    to 'minister' and it's abysmal at best.  There is much to be said (IMO)
    for being still before G-d, being healed in Him, understanding our
    identity in Him, and THEN moving out with His touch; realizing it's His
    work and not ours.  "Fleshly" ministry is not uplifting, and while G-d
    *can* bless others through it, I doubt it's His highest call.   Ask me
    how I know :-(
    
    Steve

    .33
    
    Steve,
    
    Your point is well taken... however... :-)
    
    God has already revealed much of what His will is for each and every
    Christian in the Word of God.
    
    An example:  "Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby
    some have entertained angels unawares."
    
    I don't think we need to wait for the still small voice of God to break
    through in order to be charitable, do you?
    
    I also don't believe everyone has a special gift of service, such as
    teaching, preaching, evangelism, etc., some folks place of service is
    encouragement to others, or cleaning the church auditorium, or helping
    in a Sunday School Class...
    
    We don't need to WAIT to do those things, God has already given us
    clear discernment to KNOW they are His works!
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    >    Mike, I don't quite follow you. Can you explain?
    
    your note mentioned struggling with how we view ourselves in Christ and
    our imperfections.  When we start to grasp God's grace for us and what
    He thinks of us in Christ, we won't struggle with such an inferiority
    complex anymore.  Learning to grasp God's grace for us is a major step
    in experiencing an incredible joy in your salvation.
    
    Mike

    re: .35
    
    Excellent!  That's what I was referring to with "walking wounded" in
    'ministry'.  When a person has no concept (or very little
    understanding) of the work done for him by the Messiah, or of who he
    now is as a new creation *IN HIM*, then he has no business
    'ministering' to others (though G-d can use anyone at any time for any
    purpose He desires....I'm just speaking generally here).
    
    A similar instruction is given to Timothy - that an elder not be
    appointed if he is a relatively new believer.
    
    I would consider someone to be a "new" believer if he didn't understand
    this fundamental issue yet; whether he's been a believer for 10 minutes
    or 10 years.
    
    To become a believer, one need only put his faith in the L-rd.  After
    that point, there is a maturing process.  For some, it is swift and
    ongoing, for others (such as myself) it's a painfully long process with
    quite a few non-starts before the walk really does mature and progress.
    
    Just some thoughts,
    
    Steve

    Thanks Mike - I wasn't quite sure about the legalism bit. 
    
    Ignorant of Reading :-)

    Re: legalism
    
    My last entry in 157 touched on this a little.  The pastors in a lot of 
    the holiness-type churches are measured on the number of new believers
    that come forward each week.  Whenever it got to the point that they
    were "preaching to the choir" (i.e., no new converts because everyone
    in the congregation was already saved), they started working on the
    believers.  When you are continually bombarded with comments like this:
    
    "Make things right with the Lord, for He could come back tonight."
    "You must re-dedicate your lives to Christ for revival!"
    "Pray that Christ doesn't return when you're not in church!"
    "Come to the altar and pray for forgiveness so that you'll be ready for
       Christ's return!"
    
    people start to question their own salvation, start feeling guilty
    and unworthy, and get caught up in a salvation through performance
    mode.  This is legalism.  God's grace doesn't work this way.  I think
    this causes the Church to lose a lot of potentially great Christians,
    especially among the teenage ranks.  They don't feel like they can ever
    measure up so they just quit trying altogether.
    
    Mike

    Many of the examples of legalism are "spot-on" (as the cross-ponders
    might say ;-).
    
    
    How about a working definition?  I'll try one:
    
    	legalism:  the attempt to earn G-d's favor by works; teaching
    		others to perform works to earn G-d's favor; judging
    		one's eternal status based upon evidence or lack of
    		evidence of works
    
    What do you think?

>    "You must re-dedicate your lives to Christ for revival!"

What does one do to bring revival?  Okay, "re-dedicate" may be a bit
of a poorly chosen word.  But what about salt that loses its savor?
What about "finishing the race" that was begun?  What about "if ye love
Me, keep my commandments?"

I'm a not a proponent of legalism.  I hope we don't get too broad in our
definition so as to include sincere soul searching among the saints to 
keep their relationship current and up to date.

Let's explore this in another note, and on Monday, perhaps.

Mark

    I don't think we EARN God's favor by doing anything.  God favored us
    before the foundation of this world.  Christ is our favor.
    
    I think that legalism simply means adding to grace for salvation.
    

    Proverbs 16:3 Commit they works
        unto the Lord and thy *thoughts* shall be established.
    

    I think I see what you mean. 
    
    I also see both points. One the one hand, we are not expected to merely
    sit there like cabbages and accept God's grace and mercy, but on the
    other hand, the pressure to do God's will, either from ourselves or
    from our peers, can cause a breakdown of faith.
    
    I remember a few years ago one poor lady doing the cleaning,
    flower-arranging, catering, sunday school etc etc etc. and everyone
    saying how wonderful she was to cope with it all. She wondered why she
    felt so exhausted all the time (she also had a full time job), but felt
    that there was no-one else to do these things. Anyway, she eventually
    prayed to God for help. 
    Then God spoke to various members of the Church. I found myself
    becoming a flower arranger (I hadn't been sure up to then what God 
    wanted me to do for Him, so He told me one evening in the service) 
    someone else took over the sunday school and so on. 
    It was only then that this lady felt able to tell our minister 
    how rushed she felt. One person had been doing the lion's share of the
    work.
    I'm not sure if I've explained myself very well, but my brother used to
    attend Church and stopped going in his teens. His reason was that
    whatever he did for the Church, they always wanted more from him. At
    that time he wasn't able to give more and became disillusioned. 

    Works will affect your reward, but not your salvation.  The Scriptures
    deal with them separately.  On the other hand, the joy of your
    salvation, given to you by God, should make you want to serve Him.

    Re: Legalism
    
    Grace says whosoever believes.
    
    Legalism says whosoever achieves.