Conference yukon::christian_v7

Hi Erwin,

The burden of Gensis 9:6 is not revenge, but the sanctity of human life, as 
belonging to God. Our lives are not our own; they belong to God Who bestowed 
life upon us.

The sentence of execution is not a revenge action, but returning to God 
that which has become 'His' in a special sense by overstepping the line 
between what is Gods and what is mans.  Where the murderer takes what is 
God's - the life placed in another person - the life of the murderer is 
God's in a special way, which only execution can fulfil.

The example which springs to mind is that of Achan, where he transgresed
the rule of Joshua 6:18-19, as in 7:20, by taking plunder from Jericho
which was dedicated to the LORD.  In so doing, taking what was God's as his
own possession, he himself became dedicated to the LORD, and his life was 
forfeit.  It seems a very harsh judgement to bring for confessed theft, but
the presence and holiness of God was at stake, and for God to withdraw
meant the fall of Israel - as occurred at Ai, until the sin was dealt with.

�    I acknowledge that I have never felt the anquish of having someone
�    close to me murdered, but I pray that if ever such did happen that God
�    would help me forgive. 

Forgiveness, certainly.  But the question of the sentence is not merely
man's choice, but a question of God's righteousness.  God is the righteous
judge of all the earth.  The consequence of sin not dealt with is
multiplication of sin.  The simplistic view of this is that man 'sees' that
sin has no harmful effect on the sinner, so feels he can transgress God's
law without limit.  The time for judgement has not yet come, but when it
does come, it is complete.  In this sense, temporal penalties (after all,
we will all reach the end of our time on earth) are merely a pointer to us
as how to behave; the discipline of a loving Father - even when that 
discipline means death!  He has the eternal perspective in view (Psalm 
116:15).

Meanwhile, God is not yet bringing judgement upon mankind.  So He withdraws 
Himself rather than condemn us as yet (cf Genesis 15:16).  If we 'push Him 
back', by extended disobedience, we make more room for the enemy to act.

The executioner is not acting in his own authority, or even, ultimately, in 
the authority of the state, but in God's authority which He has vested in 
the state (Romans 13:1, 1 Peter 2:13-14).  The execution in that sense is
not revenge (neither of God nor of man), but a faint reflection of a
justice which brings mercy to the community which has suffered the
blasphemy of murder; God's Name is desecrated in the theft / destruction of
His image.  His sanctity is being preserved amongst them by the cleansing
from / rejection of the murderer's deed.

�    The writer of the above is not identified but I wonder what his/her
�    definition of the word "sanctity" could possibly be? 

Hope this helps - unless I woffled excessively ;-}

�    As our Lord was being murdered on a cross He prayed "Father, forgive 
�    them; for they know not what they do" [Luke 23:34 RSV]. 

Erwin, do you think the LORD Jesus was praying for temporal or eternal
forgiveness?  That they would 'get away with it' in human terms, or that
this very murder would be effective in their own salvation? 

I like to think that we see a hint of the prayer being answered in the 
response of the centurion in Mark 15:39...

As a corollary, it would be possible - has happened - for a murderer 
awaiting the death sentence to become saved.  Though the execution takes
place, his eternal forgiveness is already assured.  'Right' justice has to
be seen to be done on the earth, though eternal forgiveness is already
secured.  I know that this happened even to some of the Nazi leaders...  
God's mercy is very great.

Achan, in his confession of guilt, knowing it would mean the death penalty, 
gave glory to God (Joshua 7:19-20).

I'm not actually advocating the return of the death penalty here, though it 
sounds like it!  We do not have a perfect judicial system, for one thing - 
and would need to clean thst up first.  Moral awareness would need to be 
instilled in peopple, and that might take a lot of mistakes which in the 
eyes of man would be irreversible and unforgivable, but could look very 
different in the eyes of God Who is waiting to receive His own...

I am saying that if our world were in a position where murder were seen as
something horrific, unclean and blasphemous enough to merit eradication by
the death penalty, we would be in a better place before the LORD...


							God bless
								Andrew

>            <<< Note 167.1 by ICTHUS::YUILLE "Thou God seest me" >>>
>                           -< Attempt to clarify... >-

    Andrew,

    Excellent response.  I would also point out that if we look to Old
    Testament Law (Leviticus 20) there are many examples of God saying:

	"If a man be guilty of (fill in one of the OT examples), he must
	 be put to death."

    God certainly made it plain and clear as to what the punishment was for
    violation of some of His laws.  It is a good thing for society today
    that they are not being judged according to Old Testament law.  

>�    As our Lord was being murdered on a cross He prayed "Father, forgive 
>�    them; for they know not what they do" [Luke 23:34 RSV].

    I heard a statement one time (not sure that I agree with it) that if
    Jesus had not prayed that prayer, God would have struck them all dead
    on the spot for what they were doing to His Son.

    Ron

    Firstly, my apologies for forgetting the "sanctity of life" note where
    I should have placed my .0. Secondly, my delay in responding to .1 and
    .2 was due to my trying to logically argue my view by using lots of
    references and commentaries. Legalistic arguments always fall short I
    feel. So I arrived home from work last night about 0030 feeling
    depressed after reading (all refs RSV) Jesus' words 
    
    "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have
     come not to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, 
     till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from 
     the law until all is accomplished." ( Matt:5:17)
    
    Some say this passage indicates that the yoke of the LAW ceased as
    Jesus stated on the cross "It is finished."  (John 19:30) But
    ignore this because it is a cop out.
    
    This morning I awoke in the darkness at 0530 wondering why I should not
    be still sound asleep when the scene of the following passage came to
    mind
    
    "The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in
    adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, "Teacher, this
    woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the law Moses
    commanded us to stone such. (see Lev 20:10) What do you say about her?
    This they said to test him, that they might have some charge against
    him. Jesus bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. And as
    they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, "Let him who
    is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her." And
    once more he bent down and wrote with his finger on the ground. But
    when they heard it, they went away, one by one, beginning with the
    eldest, and Jesus was left alone with the woman standing before him.
    Jesus looked up and said to her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one
    condemned you?" She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "Neither do I
    condemn you; go, and do not sin again."     (Matt 8:3-11)
    
    And finally,
    
    "If you really fulfill the royal law, according to the sripture, "You
    shall love your neighbour as yourself," you do well. But if you show
    partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as
    transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point
    has become guilty of all of it. .......... So speak and act as those
    who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgement is without
    mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgement"
    (James 2:8-13)
    
    So who is prepared to throw the first stone, pull the hatch release,
    throw the switch, drop the gas pellet, inject the poison. Fall in line
    all those without sin for your talents are needed here. But those who
    don't measure up, thank the Lord that he forgives you. He loves you.
    
    I hear that Clinton is ridiculed for being "Pro-choice, Pro-life and
    Anti-abortion" (I think I have the PC euphemisms written correctly). I
    see a contradiction in anyone being "Pro-capital Punishment, Pro-life,
    Pro-Christian love".
    
    Yours for the Lord
    
    
    Erwin
    
    

    Hi Irwin,
    
    >I hear that Clinton is ridiculed for being "Pro-choice, Pro-life and
    >Anti-abortion" (I think I have the PC euphemisms written
    >correctly). I see a contradiction in anyone being "Pro-capital Punishment,
    >Pro-life, Pro-Christian love".
    
    When I see or hear things like this, I wonder sometimes if we truly
    understand how holy a God we serve.  God is a righteous judge and he
    has ordained the law for order.  An example of God's righteousness is
    demonstrated in Genesis with Cain and Abel.  We know the story, Cain
    killed Abel.  Now I must ask why wasn't Cain struck dead by God?  After
    all the Bible does state if one takes the life another [unjustly] that
    his life is required.
    
    There is only one answer, it wouldn't have been righteous to do so. 
    The law though written, hadn't been given to man yet.  For God to have
    taken Cain's life it would have been unjust.  
    
    The Bible says in Galatians 6, "Be not deceved God is not mocked,
    whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." (KJV)
    
    There are *consequences* to our behavior.  Once a free floating wheel 
    has been put in motion downhill, it will eventually stop.  However,
    it's gonna cover a lot of ground before it slows down and stops.
    
    So is sin in our lives....  We sin then ask for forgiveness and believe
    that our consequences are gone?  Just like the wheel, because we repent
    we can shorten the trip of that wheel in motion, but it won't stop
    until the consequences have been reaped.
    
    Forgiveness of sin and Consequences of sin are two different things.
    
    You ask is it Christian to believe in capitol punishment?  I believe it
    would be unChristian to deny God's word because it *feels* or *sounds*
    better.   
    
    In Him,
    Nancy
    

    There are consequences  from our behavior, but not always in this time
    and place.
    
    In Romans 12:19-21 (RSV) Paul writes
    "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God;
    for it is written, 'Vengeance  is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.'
    No, 'if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him
    drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.' Do
    not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."
    
    Paul's first quote in the above passage is from Deut 32:3 (RSV) where
    the Lord says to Moses
    "Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall
    slip, for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes
    swiftly."
    
    For clarification:
    
    REVENGE - refers to retaliation for a wrong done to oneself.
    
    AVENGE & VENGEANCE - refer to retaliation for a wrong done to others.
    
    
    
    Yours for the Lord
    
    Erwin