Conference yukon::christian_v7

What's wrong with the "Faith" movement?  Its leaders include many of the most
popular television evangelists.  Its adherents compose a large percentage of
charismatic evangelical Christians.  Its emphases on faith, the authority of the
believer, and the absolute veracity of Scripture could appear to be just what
today's church needs.  And yet, I am convinced that this movement poses one of
the greatest contemporary threats to orthodox Christianity from within.  Through
it, cultic theology is being increasingly accepted as true Christianity.  This
article will highlight several serious problems with the Faith movement by
providing an overview of its major sources and leaders.  Part Two will focus on
the movement's doctrinal deviations as represented by one of its leading
proponents.�

Its Debt to New Thought
-----------------------
It is important to note at the outset that the bulk of Faith theology can be
traced directly to the cultic teachings of New Thought metaphysics.  Thus, much
of the theology of the Faith movement can also be found in such clearly
pseudo-Christian cults as Religious Science, Christian Science, and the Unity
School of Christianity.  Over a century before the Faith movement became a
powerful force within the Christian church, Phineas Parkhurst Quimby
(1802-1866), the father of New Thought, was popularizing the notion that
sickness and suffering ultimately have their origin in incorrect thinking.�
Quimby's followers held that man could create his own reality through the power
of positive affirmation (confession).�  Metaphysical practitioners have long
taught adherents to visualize health and wealth, and then to affirm or confess
them with their mouths so that the intangible images may be transformed into
tangible realities.(4)

Although proponents of Faith theology have attempted to sanitize the
metaphysical concept of the "power of mind" by substituting in its stead the
"force of faith," for all practical purposes they have made a distinction
without a difference.  New Thought writer Warren Felt Evans, for example, wrote
that "faith is the most intense form of mental action."(5)  In treating a
patient, Evans commented that "the effect of the suggestion [or positive
affirmation that the patient is well] is the result of the faith of the subject,
for it is always proportioned to the degree in which the patient *believes* what
you say" (emphasis in original).(6)  Likewise, H. Emilie Cady, a well-known
writer for Charles and Myrtle Fillmore's Unity School of Christianity, explained
that "our affirming, backed by faith, is the link that connects our conscious
human need with His power and supply."(7)  Cady also claimed that "there is
power in our word of faith to bring all good things right into our everyday
life."  Such statements strongly indicate that the distinction between the
"mind" of metaphysics and the "faith" of Faith theology is nothing but a figment
of the imagination.

Substance, Style, and Scams
---------------------------
There is no denying that much of Faith theology is derived directly from
metaphysics.  Some of the "substance", "style", and "scams" endemic to the
movement, however, can be traced primarily to the teachings and practices of
certain post-World War II faith healers and revivalists operating within
Pentecostal circles.(9)  With regard to "substance", for example, both Kenneth
Copeland and Kenneth Hagin point to T.L. Osborn and William Branham as true men
of God who greatly influenced their lives and ministries.  Of course, Osborn
himself has consistently followed E.W. Kenyon's (see below) Scripture-twisting
antics,(10) and Branham has (among other things) denounced the doctrine of the
Trinity as coming directly from the Devil.(11)

Unfortunately, Hagin and Copeland are not alone in affirming Branham; Faith
proponent Benny Hinn gives him a hearty "thumbs up" as well.(12)  When it comes
to "style", however, Hinn gravitates more toward such faith healers as Aimee
Semple McPherson and Kathryn Kuhlman.  In addition, Hinn has given his
endorsement to notorious revivalist A.A. Allen,(13) who was truly a huckster if
there ever was one - which brings us to our third "s," the "scams."

Faith teachers such as Robert Tilton and his female counterpart, Marilyn Hickey,
have copied many of the scams pioneered by Pentecostal preachers such as Oral
Roberts and A.A. Allen.  In fact, Tilton and Hickey have managed to exceed even
their predecessors' outrageous ploys.  This is hard to believe when one
considers what sort of schemes they had to outdo.  Roberts, the reader may
recall, is the man who claimed that Jesus appeared and told him God had chosen
him to find the cure for cancer.  In a lengthy appeal, Roberts avowed that the
Lord told him, "I would not have had you and your partners build the 20-story
research tower unless I was going to give you a plan that will attack cancer."
Roberts then said that Jesus instructed him to tell his partners that "this is
not Oral Roberts asking [for the money] but their Lord."(14)  (The project was
completed, but has since been "shut down and sold to a group of investors for
commercial development."(15)  Not surprisingly, no cure for cancer was ever
found.)

In like fashion, A.A. Allen "scammed" his followers by asserting that he could
command God to "turn dollar bills into twenties."(16)  He was also known to have
urged his followers to send for his "prayer cloths anointed with the Miracle
Oil,"(17) and he offered "Miracle tent shavings" as points of contact for
personal miracles.(18)  Allen even "launched a brief 'raise the dead'
program."(19)  Of course, it died.  Allen was eventually kicked out of the
Assemblies of God denomination when he jumped bail after being arrested for
drunk driving.(20)  In 1970 he died from what "news accounts report [as]
sclerosis of the liver."(21)

As we proceed to examine the primary purveyors of Faith theology, we will see
living proof of the maxim that "error begets error and heresy begets heresy."
If, for example, one examines the cultic progression of E.W. Kenyon's theology,
one will discover that his original deviations from orthodox Christianity were
minor compared to those that characterized the later stages of his ministry.
And with each of Kenyon's successive disciples, the errors become even more
pronounced.  Hagin, who popularized and plagiarized Kenyon prolifically, not
only expanded Kenyon's perversions but added to them as well.(22)  The
progression from bad to worse has continued with people like Kenneth Copeland
and Charles Capps, and is now reaching heretical heights that are almost
inconceivable through ministry leaders like Frederick Price, Benny Hinn, and
Robert Tilton.

The Cast of Characters
----------------------
Twisted texts, make-believe miracles, and a counterfeit Christ are all common
denominators of the Faith movement's leading teachers.  And, as all who look
into the matter will clearly see, it all began with the metaphysical teachings
of Essek William Kenyon.

Essek William Kenyon
--------------------
Essek William Kenyon, whose life and ministry were enormously impacted by such
cults as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science,
and New Thought metaphysics,(23) is the true father of the modern-day Faith
movement.  Many of the phrases popularized by present-day prosperity preachers,
such as "What I confess, I possess," were originally coined by Kenyon.  Kenneth
Hagin, to whom we next turn our attention, plagiarized much of Kenyon's work,
including the statement, "Every man who has been 'born again' is an incarnation,
and Christianity is a miracle.  The believer is as much an Incarnation as was
Jesus of Nazareth."(24)

Kenneth E. Hagin
----------------
As I thoroughly demonstrate in my book "Christianity in Crisis" (Harvest House,
1993), Kenneth Hagin takes Kenyon's theology from bad to worse.  Not only does
he boast of alleged visits to heaven and hell, he recounts numerous out-of-body
experiences (OBEs) on the earth as well.  On one occasion, Hagin claims he was
in the middle of a sermon when, suddenly, he was transported back in time.  He
ended up in the back seat of a car and watched as a young woman from his church
committed adultery with the driver.  The entire experience last about fifteen
minutes, after which Hagin abruptly found himself back in church, summoning his
parishioners to prayer.(25)  Despite his propensity for telling all tales and
describing false visions, virtually every major Faith teacher has been impacted
by Hagin - including such "luminaries" as Frederick K.C. Price and Kenneth
Copeland.

Kenneth Copeland
----------------
Kenneth Copeland got his start in ministry as a direct result of memorizing
Hagin's messages.  It wasn't long before he had learned enough from Hagin to
establish his own following.  To say his teachings are heretical would be an
understatement - *blasphemous* is more like it.  Copeland brashly pronounces God
to be the greatest failure of all time, boldly proclaims that "Satan *conquered*
Jesus on the Cross" (emphasis in original),(26) and describes Christ in hell as
an "emaciated, poured out, little, wormmy spirit."(27)  Yet, despite such
statements, Benny Hinn ominously warned that "those who attack Kenneth Copeland
are attacking the very presence of God!"(28)

Benny Hinn
----------
Benny Hinn is one of the fastest rising stars on the Faith circuit.  According
to an October 5, 1992 article in "Christianity Today," sales of his books in the
last year-and-a-half have exceeded those of James Dobson and Charles Swindoll
combined.(29)  While claiming to be "under the anointing," Hinn has uttered some
of the most "off-the-wall" statements imaginable - including the claim that the
Holy Spirit revealed to him that women were originally designed to give birth
out of their sides.(30)  Hinn also admits to frequenting the graves of both
Kathryn Kuhlman and Aimee Semple McPherson to get the "anointing" from their
bones.(31)  Despite his outrageous antics, Hinn has somehow managed to gain wide
acceptance and visibility within the evangelical Christian church.  His platform
on the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN), as well as his promotion by a
mainstream Christian publisher (Thomas Nelson), have catapulted him into
primetime visibility.

Whether Hinn is referring to his family history or his rendezvous with the Holy
Spirit, fantasy is often passed on as fact.  A case in point are the thousands
of "documented" healings claimed by Hinn.  Recently, he sent me three examples -
presumably, the cream of the crop - as proof of his miracle-working power.  One
of the cases involved a man who was supposedly healed of colon cancer.  A
medically naive person reading the pathology report may well see the notation
"no evidence of malignancy" and be duped into thinking that a bona fide healing
had indeed taken place.  CRI's medical consultant, Dr. Preston Simpson, however,
was not fooled by the report.  His investigation revealed that the colon tumor
in question was *surgically removed* rather than miraculously healed.  The other
two cases had comparably serious problems.(32)

Frederick K.C. Price
--------------------
Fred Price is the most notable of a growing member of black prosperity
preachers.  His church in Los Angeles now claims some 16,000 members.  He is
seen nationally on television and has referred to himself as the "chief exponent
of the Name It and Claim It."(33)  Price has added his own unique twist to Faith
theology by asserting that Jesus took on the nature of Satan *prior* to the
crucifixion(34) and by claiming that the Lord's Prayer is not for Christians
today.(35)  Despite telling his followers that he doesn't allow sickness in his
home, Price's wife has been treated for cancer in her pelvic area.(36)
Referring to his wealth, Price says the reason he drives a Rolls Royce is that
he is following in Jesus' steps.(37)

John Avanzini
-------------

John Avanzini is billed by his Faith peers as a ecognized authority on 
biblical economics.  The truth, however, is that Avanzini is an 
authority on perverting Scripture as a means to picking the pockets of 
the poor.  He has honed his craft into such an art form that when Faith 
teachers need money, they inevitably call on "Brother John."  Armed with 
a bag full of Bible-twisting tricks, he tells the unsuspecting that "a 
greater than a lottery has come.  His name is Jesus!" (38)
     According to Avanzini, if Jesus was rich, we should be rich as 
well.  Thus, he recasts Christ into a mirror image of himself - complete 
with designer clothes, a big house and a wealthy, well-financed advance 
team.(39)  Thinking otherwise, Avanzini claims, will prevent Christians 
from reaping the prosperity God has laid out for them.(40)
     Avanzini runs the gamut from teaching people how to gwt their hands 
on the "wealth of the wicked" to what might best be describes as his 
"hundredfold hoax."(41)  When it comes to fleecing God's people, few can 
match the effectiveness of John Avanzini.  There is an exception, 
however; his name is Robert Tilton.


Robert Tilton
-------------

     Robert Tilton hit the big time as a fisher of funds by developing a 
religious infomercial called Success-N-Life.  It all began when he 
travelled to Hawaii to hear from the Lord.  says Tilton, "if I'm going 
to go to the cross, I'm going to go in a pretty place.  Not some dusty 
place like Jerusalem.  That's gravel is all that place is."(42)  While 
languishing in his exotic wilderness, Tilton "realized his mission was 
to persuade the poor to give what they could to him - as God's surrogate 
- so they too could be blessed."(43)
     Then one day, Tilton tuned in to television and turned on to Dave 
Del Dotto's real estate infomercials.  The rest is history.  Tilton used 
what he saw as a prototype (44) for building an empire that takes in as 
much as $65 million per year.(65)
     It now apperar that Tilton's ill-gotten gains may dwindle rapidly 
amid reports of scandal and a variety of lawsuits.(46)  Responding to 
charges from ABC's PrimeTime Live that the payer request letters he 
promises to pray over end up in dumpsters, Tilton claims, "I laid on top 
of those paryer requests so much that the chemicals actually got into my 
bloodstream, and...I had two small strokes in my brain."(47)


Marilyn Hickey
--------------

Marilyn Hickey, much like Tilton, employs a broad range of tactics to 
manipulate followers into sending her money.  Among her many ploys are 
annointed prayer cloths, ceremonial breastplates and ropes that can be 
used as points of contact.  In one of her appeal letters, Hickey 
promises she will slip into a ceremonial breastplate, "press your prayer 
request to my heart," and "place your request on my shoulders" - all for 
a suggested donation.(48)
     For the most part, Hickey's tricks and eachings are recycled from 
other prosperity peddlers like Tilton, Hagin and Copeland.  Her message 
is peppered with such Faith jargon as "the God-kind of faith," 
confession brings possession," and "receiving follows giving."


Paul Yonggi Cho (David Cho)
---------------------------

Paul Yonggi Cho - pastor of the world's largest church, located in Seol, 
Korea - claims to have received his call to preach from Jeses Christ 
Himself, who supposedly appeared to him dressed like a fireman.(49)  Cho 
has packaged his faith formulas under the label of "fourth dimensional 
power."(50)  He is well aware of his link to occultism, arguing that if 
Buddhists and Yoga practitioners can accomplish their objectives through 
dimensional powers, then Christians should be able to accomplish much 
more by using th same means.(51)  In case one is tempted to confuse the 
size of Cho's following with the truth of his teachings, let me point 
out that the Buddist version of "name it and claim it" (Nichiren Shoshu 
Buddhism) has an even larger following than does Cho.(52)
     Cho recently made the news by changing his name from Paul to Davis. 
 As Cho tells the story, God showed him that Paul Cho had to die and 
David Cho was to be resurrected in his place.  According to Cho, God 
Himself came up with his new name.(53)


Charles Capps
-------------

Charles Capps was ordained as a inister in the International Convention 
of Faith Churches and Ministers by Kenneth Copeland.  Copeland derived 
his teachings directly from Kenneth Hagin.  This unfortunate combination 
has led Capps to make some of the most blasphemous statements in Faith 
lore.  Capps has gone so far as to teach that Jesus was the product of 
God's positive confession: "This is the key to understanding the virgin 
birth.  God's Word is full of faith and spirit power.  God spoke it.  
Gos transmitted that image to Mary.  She received the image inside of 
her....The embryo that was in Mary's womb was nothing more that the Word 
of God....She conceived the Word of God."(54)
     Capps not only preaches the blasphemous, he also preaches the 
ridiclous.  For example, he claims that if someone says, I'm just dying 
to do that" or "That just tickled me to death," their statements may 
literally come true (i.e., they may die).  According to Capps, this is 
precisely why the human race now lives only about seventy years instead 
of 900 years, as was the case with Adam.(55)

Jerry Savelle
-------------

Jerry Savelle has made his fortune by mimicking virtually all of the 
Faith teachers mentioned above.  His greatest claim to fame, however, 
may well be his ability to mimic Kenneth Copeland.  In fact, Sanelle 
appears to be an exact duplicate of Copeland.  Savelle demonstrates a 
lack of biblical acumen, as he blindly regurgitates virtually every 
heresy in the Faith movement.
     With regard to health, Savelle boasts that sickness and disease 
cannot enter his world.(56)  As for wealth, he says that words can speak 
your world into existence.(57)  Savelle now peddles his books and tapes 
to thirty-six countries at the astonishing rate of some 300,000 copies 
per year.


Morris Cerullo
--------------

Morris Cerullo claims that he gave up a driving ambition to be the 
govenor of New Jersey in order to become a minister of the gospel.(58)  
He purports to have first met God at the tender age of eight.  Since 
then his life has been one mind-blowing experience after another: he 
says he was taught by leading rabbis;(59) led ot of a Jewish orphanage 
by two angelic beings;(60) transported to heaven for a face-to-face 
meeting with God;(61) and told he would be capable of revealing the 
future.(62)
     On one occasion, Cerullo informed his audience, "You're not looking 
at Morris Cerullo - you're looking at God.  You're looking at 
Jesus."(63)  Not only is Cerullo a master of make-believe, he is also a 
master of manipulation.  Claiming that God as directly speaking through 
him, Cerullo uttered, "Would you surrender your pocketbooks unto me, 
saith God and let me be the Lord of your pocketbooks....Yea, so be thou 
obedient unto my voice."(64)


Paul Crouch
-----------

Paul Crouch and his wife, Jan, are the founders of Trinity Braodcasting 
Network, which today has an estimated net worth of half a billion 
dollars.  As Crouch himself puts it, "God has, indeed, given us the MOST 
POWERFUL VOICE in the history of the WORLD."(65)

Unfortunately, this voice is being used to promote teachings straight 
from the kingdom of the cults.  Crouch's influence has become so vast 
that he can now raise as much as $50 million during a single 
"Praise-a-thon."  What many of the well-intentioned Christians who 
support TBN do not know, however, is that part of this money goes to 
promoting cultic groups and individuals who not only deny the Trinity 
but claim that this essential of Christianity is a pagan doctrine.(66)  
It is indeed ironic that a broadcasting network called "Trinity" would 
promote anti-Trinitarian doctrine.
     To tose who would spea kout against the false teachings 
proliferated on his network, Crouch has this to say: "I think they're 
damned and on their way to hell; and I don't think there's any 
redemption for them."(67)  Shortly after I met with Crouch to prove that 
the Faith movement compromises essential Christian doctrine, Crouch 
looked into the lens of the camera and angrily declared, "If you want to 
criticize Ken Copeland for his preaching on faith, or Dad Hagin, get out 
of my life!  I don't even want to talk to you or hear you.  I don't 
want to see your ugly face.  Get out of my face, in Jesus' name."(68)
     Sadly, Crouch refers to the Faith message as a "revival of 
truth...restored by a few precious men."(69)




     The Faith movement was spawned by the unholy marriage of 
19th-century New Thought metaphysics with the flamboyance and abuses of 
post-World War II revivalism,  It should therefore come as no surprise 
that its doctrine and practices are palpably unbiblical.  Yet, some 
charge that critics of the movement are guilty of commiting a logical 
error known as the genetic fallacy -"that is, rejecting an assumption 
because of where it comes from rather than disproving the argument."(70)
     While the charge appears formidable, it is in fact defective.  For 
it assumes that the criticisms against the Faith movement are made 
primarily if not solely on the basis of its historical roots.  In truth, 
the bulk of critical evaluations ae levelled directly against the 
unbiblical teachings of the movement's leading proponents today.(71)  
Historical discussions have, for the most part, served to place the 
phenomenon in its proper context.(72)
     Now that we've dug up the roots and sampled the topsoil of the 
faith movement, we are ready to take a penetrating look at its ripened 
friut.  Part Two of this article will do just that, by systematizing and 
critiquing the theology of the movement's premier preacher of another 
gospel.
 

I'll gladly supply footnote references for the last few notes.  As you 
can tell, the footnotes are too voluminous to include with the text.  I 
also apologize for any and all typos.  I just washed my keyboard and 
can't do a thing with it. :^)


Sandy

I've already found the article very interesting.  I was not aware that Paul
Yongge Cho was a word of faith preacher.

It's so hard to believe people are taken in by this stuff.  And these are the
people that Christians are most closely associated with by the world.  I hate
to judge people, but wouldn't you think that someone who possessed the Holy
Spirit would be able to discern that these teachings were contrary to the
Gospel?

Then again, it probably a while before you run across what they _really_ teach,
and for those who aren't totally committed to a particular preacher, but only
read about him occasionally, it may be a while before they hear heterodoxy from
that person.  I actually picked up a couple of Kenneth Hagin books on the 
Holy Spirit <gasp!> and before I realized who he was, I attended Robert Tilton's
church once (it really turned me off; very extravagant and pompous).

Eric

>It's so hard to believe people are taken in by this stuff.  And these are the
    
    It's even harder to believe that so many Christians are really lacking
    when it comes to knowledge of God's Word.  It shouldn't be this way.
    Some of their scams rub against fairly basic tenets of Christianity.
    
    Mike

 The problem is that these folks (the purveyors) call themselves Christians,
 they appear on a Christian TV network and they are frequently on your local
 TV stations hawking this stuff.  






 Jim

    ...and one of them owns the network!  Glad to see my ole buddy, Benny
    Hinn, getting lots of attention here.  Seems to me I warned everyone
    about him in the archived version ;-)

                                -< sad to see >-

>>It's so hard to believe people are taken in by this stuff.  And these are the
    
    >It's even harder to believe that so many Christians are really lacking
    >when it comes to knowledge of God's Word.  It shouldn't be this way.
    >Some of their scams rub against fairly basic tenets of Christianity.
    
    >Mike


Agreed, Mike and Eric.  I've heard some of Benny Hinn's and Kenneth 
Copeland's sermons and am astounded at what they have to say.  Their 
interpretation of Scripture is so far off base that it's hard to believe 
that people actually listen to it.


Sandy

    >Hinn, getting lots of attention here.  Seems to me I warned everyone
    >about him in the archived version ;-)


I seem to remember you getting a lot of flack for your stance on Benny 
Hinn.  The local Christian bookstore has now refused to sell Hinn's 
books and has been picketed for it.  I stop in every now and then and 
let the owner know that I appreciate the stance he has been taking.

Sandy

    
    "Christian TV Station"....I dont believe I've ever come across one.

 I believe members of the faith movement are partners in the Trinity Broad-
 casting Network.





 Jim

	Well, I have listened to several of the people mentioned in the
	article.  Interestingly, I've never heard things put the way that
	the article states them.  I can see where some of the comments come
	from, but they appear out of context from the way I've heard them
	said, giving things a totally different slant.

	I've learned from some of these people, following along in the
	scriptures and using discernment.  I have found some things that
	I disagree with, but also found greater understanding in some areas.

	(I'm talking about just a few of the people mentioned; there are
	quite a few I have not heard).
	
	I am also disconcerted at the way the article lumps all the people
	together as though they were one person.  The very first time I
	heard Robert Tilton, I turned to my husband and said, "This guy
	is turning my stomache!"  (rather drastic, huh?)  My husband asked
	me to explain, and I just told him he didn't sit well with my spirit.

	Then, I've watched one Jerry Savelle tape about three times now,
	and get more and more from it every time.

	my 2 cents,
	Karen
	

    
    Mike F.,
    
    Yea there was some discussion over Benny Hinn in the archived
    versions...  :^)
    
    I am very glad you/Sandy have posted these articles here.  Someone made
    an excellent point - if you only hear some of these people's teachings
    once in a while you may only hear Scriptural things.  I *truly* am glad
    that the other side of what they teach is being presented for
    examination.
    
    It's funny Karen, but I had the same reaction the first time I saw
    Robert Tilton and I had the same reaction while watching a few others
    mentioned in the previous replies.  I *never* had this reaction toward
    Benny Hinn - and that's why I say right here that I am glad for those
    who are making his teachings known.
    
    Thanks Mike :^)
    
    ~Peg
    
    

    If you question the context of a quote or fact, supply the footnote
    number and I'm sure Sandy or I will type it in.  If you want all of
    them, send me us your mailstop and we'll photocopy the article for you
    (complete with footnotes).
    
    Mike

    During some temporary employment I had, my wife and I lived in
    Carrolton, Texas.  (Might be a misspelling there ...)  Anyway, just a
    few blocks from us were these huge grain elevators with big rainbows 
    and some sort of Christian message on them.  She told me it was 
    Tilton's.  Though she's very Christian, she found it to be kind of 
    spooky.  
    
    Similary, we went to Oral Robert's University while driving back to 
    Missouri (the long way) just to drive around and look at it.  I 
    remember right in front of the hospital was this huge statue of 
    praying hands.  (I joked that it looked to me like there was a giant 
    buried under the hospital praying someone would unearth him.)  Again, 
    the effect was kind of spooky.  It was these types of monuments that 
    really turned my wife off about these guys.
    
    Steve

    For some interesting parallels, read Jeremiah 23 to see what God's
    Word says about these deceivers.
    
    Mike

    Quite a few of the many quotes are available on an audiotape version of
    "Christianity in Crisis."  The tape and the book are available by
    writing to:
    
    Hank Hanegraaf
    P.O. Box 667
    San Juan Capistrano, CA  92693-0667
    (714) 589-1504

    
    Hello, I am from the west part of Austria, very close to the boarder
    of Switzerland and Germany, and I was very disapointed when I read
    this article.
    I am born again since 2 years, and I am teached in the word of faith.
    I know all the people you mentioned in the report.
    What I have to say is, that "you will recognice them on their fruits",
    and if you look how many people get to the LORD so I have to say its
    wonderful !!!!!!
    We have to lead the people to the Lord and not starting to fingerpoint
    on the own body. This is the reason why the body of christ is so WEAK
    !! because we are critizicing always ourselfes.
    Keep the mind on that what we have to do, so we can please god.
    On the other hand we have the holy spirit, and he shows us the
    mistakes everybody from us is doing all day long, because we are still
    in the flesh.
    
    The fire I experienced in the faith-church is greate. I know this,
    because I
    am preaching at the moment in a pentecostal-church, and that is a big
    difference. They are very weak, sick and they don't know which power
    they could have. So thats why the bible says "you will recognice them
    on their fruits".
    
    Excuse me for my mistakes I make, because english is not my native
    language.
    
    God bless you all
    Hannes

    
    >What I have to say is, that "you will recognice them on their fruits",
    
    Be careful not to confuse fruits with spiritual gifts.

   � What I have to say is, that "you will recognice them on their fruits",
    
   > Be careful not to confuse fruits with spiritual gifts.

   Yeah, verily. For even Balaam's donkey prophesied, proving (among other 
   things) that the operation of spritual gifts in a being's life says 
   *nothing* regarding the fruit of their life.

   Brian

Welcome, Hannes - good to hear from you. 

I agree that we need to be careful of our own walk before criticising
others.  We also need to be careful of 'new' teaching, to make sure it does
not go beyond the Word of God.  Then we have to always be ready to step out
in faith when He says to move ahead.  Personally I think that 'holding
back' is as much a danger as 'going too far' is, and we too easily use the
excesses of some as an excuse not to go far enough in the LORD's way
ourselves. 

May we each be ready and willing to follow where God leads us in these 
troubled but exciting days...

							Andrew

    I have been reading this conference for a couple of months now and when
    I got to this subject, I just had to respond.  I agree with Hannes who
    wrote in from Europe.  Remember what Jesus says to us in Matthew 7,
    verses 1 through 5.  Only Jesus, who has the nailprints in His hands
    and feet and the spear mark in His side is perfect.  None of us are.
    I happen to know and have been around some of these people names in 
    this article.  God showed me from the beginning that you line
    everything up with His word, and as far as teaching goes you keep inthe
    good (His word) and throw out the bad.  We are still human beings with
    our human intellect being renewed by God's word.  We are to pray for
    these people and allow the Holy Spirit to deal with them.  We all have
    opinions, and God sees their hearts - we don't.  If you don't agree
    with these teachings and the people mentioned, then pray for them that
    God will enlighten them and show them His ways so they are not deceived
    by the enemy - but don't judge the way you are.  Do you really know
    anything about the fruits they are bearing?  Remember, God will judge
    them and chasten them, just as he does with us.  They still are our
    brothers and sisters in Christ.  I thank God for using some of these
    people to grow me up in His word and to encourage others with the
    precious love of Jesus and to tell others about Jesus and His precious
    love for them.  After all, that's what we're all called to do:  to
    preach the gospel (good news) of Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to
    lead us, teach us, counsel us and guide us.  

    
    As I was discussing with a friend recently, in every case I am
    personally familiar with, people who follow these men and women are
    very weak in the Word except for the several verses (always taken out
    of context) which support these ideas.  They're lives do not
    demonstrate the fruit described in the Bible by any stretch of the
    imagination.  In fact, usually they are unstable, use emotion as their
    guide, and make little to no real progress toward Christian maturity.
    
    When my sweet daughter died in January, one of the followers of these
    people, in all good intentions, wrote a letter to Elaine and me saying
    that she felt strongly that she should pray for ressurection for
    Caroline but that she decided it would not be prudent (for some reason)
    to do so.  It did not bother me particularly but demonstrated how duped
    she was.  I've never seen such a clear example of claiming to believe
    something (that her prayers could ressurect someone) but failing to put
    it to the test (deciding not too, for some reason) - a great example of
    the mental and verbal wrangling that *must* accompany this type of
    ridiculous teaching/belief.
    
    jeff  

	Jeff,

	I'm sorry to hear that.  

	I'm also sorry to read this 

    As I was discussing with a friend recently, in every case I am
    personally familiar with, people who follow these men and women are
    very weak in the Word except for the several verses (always taken out
    of context) which support these ideas.  They're lives do not
    demonstrate the fruit described in the Bible by any stretch of the
    imagination.  In fact, usually they are unstable, use emotion as their
    guide, and make little to no real progress toward Christian maturity

	I suppose you don't feel "personally familiar" with me, but I do
	not believe  

	a) that I am weak in the Word (yes, I could be stronger, but I'm 
	   not weak!)
	b) that my live does not demonstrate fruit described in the Bible
	   by any stretch of the imagination 
	c) that I am unstable
	d) that I am making no progress toward Christian maturity

	I have learned from some of the teachers mentioned in this string,
	and have a Pastor who has learned from these teachers that is fully
	led by the Holy Spirit.  My church is considered a Faith Church, yet
	I have been at home at many other Christian churches and services I've
	attend (the word spoken there lines up with the Word I know)

	My beliefs are not far off from many other Christians in here.

	Unfortunately, the author of the book mentioned in this string has
	made it is job to "warn" the world about these teachers.  While he's
	so busy condemning them, has he considered the fruit he is bearing ?

	(This is not a note of all out support for all the teachers mentioned.
	I have heard less than half of them, and will not try to account for
	the others)

	I *HAVE* come across people in the faith movement that have taken
	a part of what they've heard and misapplied it.  It grieves my heart,
	the same as it does when it happens with any other Christian.  The 
	woman who wrote you was clearly wrong.  Shall you condemn every
	faith believer ?  Have you never come across another Christian that
	behaved wrongly when believing they were acting for good ??????? 
	Would you condemn that person's denomination, teachers, pastor ?

	Sorry this was so long.  I've tried to stay out of this topic, but
	had to respond to Jeff's opening paragraph (I'm hoping, Jeff, you
	did not believe you'd be offending your fellow brothers and sisters
	here).
	
	Love in Him,
	Karen

    I've just read a couple more responses and just had to add this,
    because I forgot to mention it in .25.  Jesus says that the devil comes
    to kill, steal, and destroy.  Satan wants to tear apart the 'Body of
    Christ', and I believe this is another tool that he's using.  God wants
    us to have knowledge and not be in ignorance of the enemy, yet he also
    wants us to love one another "unconditionally".  This is an opportunity
    to do just that.  Love one another with your heart - not your mind.
    God bless you all,
    
    Ellen

I don't know much about this topic.  (Go ahead, frame these words.)

I have to highlight Karen's point, though.  If we changed the names
and said that there are charlatans in the Christian faith and that people
should be warned away from Christianity (which some people do), we'd be
all over saying that not all Christians are like the charlatans.

Further, we also acknowledge that Christians are washed people (to borrow
a term), which doesn't necessarily make them mature people; they sometimes
do stupid things; they sometimes have moral failings.

Leaders will be held to a higher measurement and will have greater
accountability.  We should be careful that we have proof positive before
we use "reflective" language that can be applied against as well as for
Christianity.  Having said this...

I don't know much about this topic.  (Go ahead, frame these words.)

Mark M

    
    
     This is not a matter of Loving one another or of criticising believers
    in Christ or of tearing down the Body of Christ. It is simple "rightly
    dividing the Word of Truth" .  There are also scripture that warn us of
    false prophets and teachers in the last days, we are told that they
    will be plentiful.  Jesus even said the many will come and say "haven't
    we cast out demons and performed miracles in your name" and he will say
    I never knew you.   
     	I am speaking here in generalities and I am not intending in
    offend anyone here in this conference, I am simply commenting upon
    the TV preachers that have been mentioned, it is not for me to
    determine someone's spiritual condition, that is between that person
    and God.  
    
     One further thought, because we are told that in the last days these
    things will take place, I rejoice in the comming of our Lord!

    I think the bottom line is that it is each believers responsibility to
    verify what these preachers say with Scripture.  We should never just
    swallow a sermon whole hog (no matter who the preacher is), but bring it 
    home (away from any emotional hype) and investigate before digesting. 
    Anyone speaking through a human vessel can make mistakes.  This
    verification process is important -- it protects us, and matures us.
    
    Sue

	Thank you, Sue.
	
	How do you do that (say so much in so few words) ?

	Karen

Another "I don't know that much about this topic" person who has a need to put
2� in.  :-)

I see in some of these sorts of 'exposes' a tearing down of the person rather 
than an exposing of false teaching, and I think that hurts everyone.  
Particularly, it hurts people who may be accepting the false teachings of that
particular teacher.  They may have heard some wonderful truths from this 
teacher, and if they see him attacked, they may respond defensively instead of 
examining charges.  Whereas if a dispassionate discussion of the particular 
teaching is done, people are much more likely to give it an ear.

I've learned some important things from some people whose theology I disagree
with heavily.  I've learned some marvelous things from Roy Masters, who I
wouldn't even call a Christian.  I heard a wonderful and spirit-led story
recently about the pastor of the huge Korean church, who is one of the people
considered central in the Faith movement.  It is very possible - in fact it is
our best possible human attainment - to have a solid handle on the truth in some
areas, and be missing it completely in others.  None of us is going to be 
perfectly right on everything.

If we all kept the discussions on the level of the teachings that we believe to
be false instead of dragging people's characters and motives through the muck,
we would all seem a lot more Christ-like.

Paul

    
    Karen,  I was certainly not aiming my note at anyone in the conference
    and really did not intend to insult anyone.  As I began my note, with
    "my experience", this should show clearly that my beliefs on this
    subject are limited to my personal experience with people in the flesh,
    not with all people of that persuasion.  I'm sorry if I offended you
    since that was not my intent.
    
    I would like to suggest that our allegiance is to God, not men or
    women.  If we find ourselves offended by criticism of our favorite
    preachers and teachers we are placing our faith and trust in the wrong
    place.  I used to be a great fan of Charles Swindoll and didn't mind
    saying so.  Now I'm a great fan of our God, by whom Swindoll has been so
    gifted, to tell us about with his mouth and pen.  And furthermore this
    proper understanding of Swindoll's gift is quickly and adamantly spoken
    from Swindoll's own mouth and with a lifestyle that is consistent with
    this belief.
    
    jeff

    To highlight what Sue said...
    
    I  L O V E   my  Pastor...
    
    But my Pastor is human... I don't always agree with everything my
    Pastor preaches... he has some attitudes that I, personally, find,
    offensive.... but  no matter what church I go to... I will find that I
    won't agree 100% with everything the leadership teaches...
    
    why...  because we are all uniquely gifted and individual.. :-)  Which
    I find rather exciting to experience, as I've come to know each of you
    that participate in this conference. :-)  [notice the smiles just don't
    stop]  Yet, there are differences between us... that well I, may,
    personally, find offensive... :-)  
    
    You see, Sue is right in that we should not "swallow everything" that a
    leader says, but I must add, that just as a wife is to be submissive to
    her husband, so is the body submissive to the Shephard.
    
    Perhaps another topic?
    
    Nancy

	Jeff, I couldn't agree with you more.

	FWIW, my allegiance is not to any of these teachers (or any
	teacher).  I was not offended by criticism of the teachers, but
	what I felt was criticism of people that may obtain wisdom from
	those teachers.

	Karen

    I don't go for this whitewashing stuff.  We should be as responsible as
    the Watchman in Ezekiel.  These "ministers" have twisted scripture to
    the point that they're preaching another gospel about a different
    Jesus.  It's flat-out heresy!
    
    Anyone that condemns Joni's lack of healing due to her lack of faith
    just doesn't get it.  Anyone that points to Job as the worst example of
    faith in the Bible just doesn't get it.  Job should be one of the first
    inducted in the Hall of Faith.  To go through what he went through, and
    still praise God through it all has to have faith that moves mountains.
    
    Mike

 RE -1

 A couple other things bother me about this movement.  One prominent leader
claims to have a physical description of God, which if I were to quote it
here I'm sure we'd all get a chuckle.  The same prominent leader claims that
God "cut a deal with Satan, to free Jesus from Hell..that He was 'cut loose'
on a technicality."

Essentially the movement seems to make God out to be a "bellhop", just waiting
at our beck and call, as stated earlier, based on scripture taken out of 
context.

The author does not question the commitment of Christians involved in
the movement.  But he does state quite clearly and with much documentation
that they are being severely mislead.



I highly recommend the book to anyone with any question about this movement.




Jim

This is a story of something that happened to the pastor (can't remember his
name) of that huge church in Korea, who I believe is considered one of the
leaders of the "Faith" movement.  Just an illustration that no matter how far
off you may be in some areas (and I don't really know where or how he is off),
you can be RIGHT ON in others.  And if you start attacking the person instead of
the particular things which may be wrong, people who have seen him do wonderful
things will rise to support him, and in supporting him will support the other
things he says which may be in error.

A member of his church came to him for counselling, and told the story of her
daughter.  Her daughter had always been rebellious, and was now out working as
as prostitute, and bringing shame on the whole family.  The mother was quite
distraught over the shame being brought on the family.

To which the pastor responded, essentially, "Stop your whining about what is
happening to YOU" (probably not the response that would be encouraged seminary 
class "Pastoral Counselling 101" :-)  "You've talked to me for 10 minutes about 
the shame this brings on YOU and about how bad YOU feel.  Your concern needs to 
be for your daughter, not for yourself.  You need to see your daughter through 
the cross of Jesus Christ, being washed by His blood.  You need to see her as a 
person for whom Christ was willing to die.  If Christ was willing to die for her
sin, who are you to not forgive that sin?  Stop thinking about yourself at all 
and seek to love her as Christ loves her."

Well, the woman was quite taken aback and initially angry at the pastor's lack
of "compassion."  But the more she thought about it, the more it sunk in.  A few
days later, her daughter came to her door.  Her daughter usually came when she
needed money or some other thing, and her reception by her family was very poor.
She stood at the door expecting her mother to come to the door with anger and
hatred in her eyes, as she always did.  But her mother, when she came to the 
door, she suddenly DID see her daughter as Christ saw her.  As a soul who was 
lost and hurting.  The mother suddenly burst into tears and hugged her daughter 
as if she would never let go.  The daughter was totally overwhelmed by this love
from her mother, and burst into tears herself.  After crying together, when her 
mother explained from whence had come this love, the daughter accepted the Lord 
that very day, and immediately left her life of sin.  Today that daughter is an
active an prominent member of the church, and is walking deeper day by day with
the Lord.

Paul

    re: .32
    
    Karen,
    
    I want her to tell me that too!  8-)
    
    Blessed and honored to be Sue's hubby,
    
    
    Steve

    I finally finished the book last night and all I can say is "WOW!" 
    We're talking serious stuff here.  Every Christian *NEEDS* to read this
    book.

    "How can you glorify God in your body, when it doesn't function right? 
    How can you glorify God?  How can He get glory when your body doesn't
    even work?...What makes you think the Holy Ghost wants to live inside a
    body where He can't see out through the windows and He can't hear with
    the ears?  What makes you think the Holy Spirit wants to live inside of
    a physical body where the limbs and the organs and the cells do not
    function right?...And what makes you think He wants to live in a temple
    where He can't see out of the eyes, and He can't walk with the feet,
    and He can't move with the hand?...The only eyes that He has that are
    in the earth realm are the eyes that are in the body.  If He can't see
    out of them then God's gonna be limited... (Frederick K.C. Price, "Is
    God Glorified Through Sickness?", audiotape #FP605).
    
    Doesn't that just make you sick to your stomach?!
    
Romans 16:17
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

Romans 16:18
For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly;
and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

II Timothy 4:1
I CHARGE thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge
the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

II Timothy 4:2
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort
with all longsuffering and doctrine.

II Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after
their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

II Timothy 4:4
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto
fables.

II Timothy 4:5
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist,
make full proof of thy ministry.

I Timothy 4:1
NOW the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I Timothy 4:2
Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

I Timothy 4:3
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath
created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe an know the
truth.

I Timothy 4:4
For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received
with thanksgiving:

I Timothy 4:5
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

I Timothy 4:6
If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good
minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good
doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

I Timothy 6:3
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words
of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;

I Timothy 6:4
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words,
whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings.

I Timothy 6:5
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth,
supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.

I Timothy 6:6
But godliness with contentment is great gain.

Titus 1:10
For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of
the circumcision:

Titus 1:11
Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which
they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

Titus 1:12
One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway
liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

Titus 1:13
This witness is true, Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in
the faith;

Titus 1:14
Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the
truth.

Titus 1:15
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and
unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable,
and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Titus 3:10
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

Titus 3:11
Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of
himself.

II John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into
your house, neither bid him God speed:

II John 1:11
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Hebrews 13:9
Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines, for it is a good thing
that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not
profited them that have been occupied therein.

Jeremiah 23:25
I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I
have dreamed, I have dreamed.

Jeremiah 23:26
How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea,
they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

Jeremiah 23:27
Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they
tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for
Baal.

Jeremiah 23:28
The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word,
let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the
LORD.

Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh
the rock in pieces?

Jeremiah 23:30
Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my
words every one from his neighbour.

Jeremiah 23:31
Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and
say, He saith.

Jeremiah 23:32
Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do
tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness;
yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this
people at all, saith the LORD.

I have learned much from these people. I have also been disappointed
greatly by a "lack of evidence", that tecniques taught here have brought.
Was it my lack of faith, or I didn't "having done all, to stand", and
was knocked over by the wind of adversity? I freely admit I do not yet 
know, yet I still seek the wisdom of God in all things.

I have blamed God, blamed the devil, blamed myself, and blamed the preachers
because what they teach, has not always happened. I study the "reasons"
they say things "have not yet come to pass". I have not yet finished my
study, and will post the results here, God willing.

What I have been waiting to hear from ANY off these faith preachers, is
the very important statement of the "faithful", 

"If it be thy will, Oh God."

For if not:

I Timothy 4:1

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart
from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Doctrine of devil's #1, from the Satanic Bible - "Do as thou wilt" No, I don't
read it, just remembered it from past teachings on the works of the devil in
non-Christian music.

Very critical factor here. If faith, which is a necessary part of being a
Christian, is misdirected (and if faith is in one's faith, and not IN God!)
it can be faith that misses the mark. Many people have faith in other things
other than God, including having faith in people, other gods, idols, some
even have faith in the devil. Do not think the devil has given up cause he's
working overtime, and his favorite playground is where he can do the most 
damage, right in the think of things, in the church. *gasp* of all places!

Suggested reading:

Matthew 13:36 - 43, the parable of the tares of the field

In His love, by His grace, by His faithfulness,

Bob

    Last night, I had the experience of attending Jubilee Christian Center,
    in San Jose, on an invite from a friend whom was recently saved by God
    though my testimony. Much to my surprise, the guest speaker was Jesse
    Duplantis, who seems to always be preaching wherever Kenneth Copeland, 
    and Jerry Savalle have their conventions.
    
    He seemed to be sincere in his preaching, and told of some pretty
    interesting stories, of God's working in, and around his life, and
    circumstances. I was impressed by the "alter call" at the end, where
    some came forward, and either dedicated, or rededicated their lives to
    God. He took the time to "mentally photograph" all those who came
    forward, telling them he would be sure to find them in the afterlife,
    and have a great talk with them.
    
    He seemed to have quite the ability to speak, using humor, and music to
    get across the message. Which seemed most of all, to speak of the
    forgiveness of God, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ.
    
    Having recently read "Christianity in Crisis", I was keenly watching
    for some of the "twisted" doctrine, and found none. (That I noticed)
    
    Please continue to pray for these "Faith preachers", that God, in His
    goodness and love, would correct them in anyplace *He* sees as
    erroneous. After all, it is not God's desire that ANY should perish.
    
    Bob
    
    

    After all is said and done, it comes down to what God's Word says.
    
>    Having recently read "Christianity in Crisis", I was keenly watching
>    for some of the "twisted" doctrine, and found none. (That I noticed)
    
    Great book!  Many of these people have been keeping a low profile since
    it came out.  Benny Hinn even issued an apology, but still needs prayer
    because he still slips in some of his twisted ideas once in a while. 
    Paul Crouch, president of TBN, still condescendingly (and indirectly) 
    refers to Hank and "Christianity in Crisis" once in a while on the air.
    They aren't happy to have their style cramped, but I praise God for
    that book.  I think the church will be better off for it.
    
    Mike

    -1
    
    :-) Mike's still  here.

    no, I think that's his evil twin brother...

    -1
    
    Thisistwue.

    No, Mike.  THIS is the palindrome snarf!

    Quote from a friend on this note's subject:
    
    "The faith movement - where everyone gets to be god, except God."

    If I may, I'd like to ask what people see as the difference between
    "standing" on God's promises, and "name it, and claim it".
    
    It seems a very fine line to me.
    
    Bob

    Standing on God's promises is focusing on Him.  Name it and Claim it is
    focusing on self.
    
    

>    If I may, I'd like to ask what people see as the difference between
>    "standing" on God's promises, and "name it, and claim it".
>    
>    It seems a very fine line to me.

The line is fine, it is true, but crucial.  The line is who is in control. 

"Standing on the promises" consists of recognizing God for who He is, and
having faith that He will act in our lives according to His nature.  As Nancy
said, it focuses entirely on God.

"Name it and claim it" subtly crosses over the line into believing that you
can *make* God do what you want.  That *you* are in control, that *your*
"claiming" is what causes something to happen, that God is there to do your
bidding.

The line may be fine, but the difference is enormous.

Paul

    I would agree...
    
    "Standing on the promises" is where we agree with God.
    
    "Name it, claim it" (or blab it, grab it if you prefer) is where we try
    to force God to agree with us.
    
    Not a pretty picture.
    

    Bob George, in his book "Classic Christianity" gives a good
    illustration of faith.  He says that it's not our faith but the OBJECT
    of our faith that makes a difference.  He relates faith to a clutch is
    a high powered race car.  When someone drives the car, they don't say,
    "Wow, what a clutch", instead they say, "Wow what a powerful engine".
    
    Its not the amount of our faith that makes a difference, its our faith
    in a Great and Awesome God.  God is the initiator, we are the
    responders through faith.  I heard some of the "Name it & claim it"
    group say that a person is poor because they don't have enough faith to
    believe God that they should prosper.  Or, they have not been healed
    because they don't have enough faith.  The bible says that if we have
    the faith of a mustard seed...  We are to simply respond in faith to
    that which God has spoken to us about.  He is the initiator.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Actually the "Name it and Claim it" movement is Biblical.  It can be
    found in Revelation 3:14-22 under the topic of the Church of Laodicea.
    Specifically verse 17.
    
3:14  And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things
 saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation
 of God;

3:15  I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert
 cold or hot.

3:16  So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue
 thee out of my mouth.

3:17  Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need
 of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor,
 and blind, and naked:

3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be
 rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of
 thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou
 mayest see.

3:19  As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and
 repent.

3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and
 open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

3:21  To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as
 I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

3:22  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the
 churches.

    I notice that Greg mentions Ken Hagen a few times.  I've heard him on
    the radio, and heard him discussed, but that was about 4 years ago.  At
    that time, I heard him say many things that were on the edge of
    Biblical truth, and a few things that flat out contradicted good
    theology.  Other sources, like the Christian Research Institute, urged
    Christians to disengage from Hagen.  
    
    Is this the same guy?  Is he teaching according to Biblical truth now? 
    Sorry, but I don't remember the specifics, as years go by and the mind
    becomes less effective....   He was definitely a screamer, and a "name
    it and claim it" guy.  And, as I said, way off base.  Is this an
    example of the "faith movement"?
    
    - Don Randall

    Don, yes he's still spouting off that nonsense and yes it's an example
    of the faith cult.

    Come on now and give me a break.Now you're slamming Kenneth Hagin.
    Imagine that and he's not here to defend himself.In reference to.43
    this is now a cult. I feel sorry for you ::HEISER. I dont know how much       
    you know about Kenneth Hagin,but I for one have read at least 10 of his
    books and have been to his seminars. I am wondering what your basing
    your view on. Anyway, just because you dont agree with someone, doesnt
    give you the right to identify them as a cult. If you dont like what
    you hear (directly) then turn it off. There are many men of God out           
    there who I disagree with,but Ive learnt that there is ALWAYS something  
    positive being taught by most. Its pick and choose. If you can use what
    is being taught then apply it to your life, if not then dont. But it
    doesnt give you the right to make a judgement as to whether it is a
    cult or not. Dont be too hasty in slamming a brother,unless now your
    implying hes not a brother.
    
       By the way Im NOT a name it and claim it individual, and if I am
    defending Kenneth Hagin its for 3 reasons.
    
    1) He's a brother
    2) Youve called his ministry a cult and hes not here to defend himself
    3) I have received good teaching from him that has enhanced my faith
    and walk.
    
    
                                  In His service:
                                     Sylvain
    
                                  

Thank you, Sylvain .... while you're clearly feeling this so deeply as to
express the defense rather sharply, I agree there has been an unwarrented
level of antagonism shown in this notes string.  We should not expect this
from those in the LORD, except that they perceive themselves as defending
truth against error.  Mike Heiser states that he has followed this belief
in the past, and felt the release so significant that he needs to underline
the error in oprder to prevent others from being misled in it.  However, we
need to stick to facts and the Word of God, and beware against treating
mere man - and fellow believers at that - as enemy. 

I have appreciated some of Kenneth Hagin's input.  I've only come across a
very little, not enough to evaluate the man's total ministry, but enough to
see him as honest and faithful according to his personal limitations.  He
does not strike me as intellectually powerful or masterful with words;
rather, repetitive and simple, but that is not a spiritual criterion.  I
have not heard the breadth of his teaching, nor anything he has published
for some years, so am in no way qualified to state on his precise position.

Be aware that any warnings about his teaching are only valid from hearts 
motivated by love to the family.  Not personally directed at a man.  ie if 
you don't like Kenneth Hagin, pray for him until you love him enough to 
care about him before you attack his ministry on a personal basis.

If that applies to Kenneth Hagin, it applies so much more to the fellowship 
here.  Don't condemn without love.  It brings condemnation back on oneself, 
though that's a poor reason to conform to God's love...

I trust that all who participate here (including read-onlies) continually
cover this conference with prayer [as well as the work-place which
generously supports it as well as being our earthly source of income].  We
need to pray for the preservation of a right spirit here - in every note
string - as there is an enemy who will attack any unprotected corner. 

In particular, we should be careful to bring before the LORD any entry we
make to discussions which touch a raw nerve, something we find sensitive -
even and especially when we perceive it as pertaining to the the LORD's
revelation.

				In Jesus' love for you all...
								Andrew 

	Thank you , Sylvain and Andrew.

	I was growing quite sad at some of the harsh input here.
	
	Thought I'd wandered into Soapbox by mistake...

	Karen

...another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater (knowing nothing
about Hagin, but still in possession of Dake's Annotated Reference Bible) 8^o

And if something is found wrong with Mike's pastor, however small, should
the whole of it be cast in the avoidance at all cost cult category?

I'm as fervent as anyone here about truth and attacking error, but let's
stick to the issue; and I'll try to improve on it myself.

Mark

� ...another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater (knowing nothing
� about Hagin, but still in possession of Dake's Annotated Reference Bible) 8^o
.
� And if something is found wrong with Mike's pastor, however small, should

Ah!!!! Is *he* the baby that got thrown out with the bath-water???

And I didn't realise that Hagin was mentioned in Dakes...
	{!please! don't tell me he's in Deuteronomy ;-} !!!!!  ;-) ;-) ;-)


Sorry folks.  I will try to be serious.

							tomorrow....

									&

>� ...another case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater (knowing nothing
>� about Hagin, but still in possession of Dake's Annotated Reference Bible) 8^o
>
>Is *he* in *there* ? !!!!!  ;-) ;-) ;-)

Well, he certainly got into hot water not too long ago.  I was glad to
have something pointed out to be careful about but still find the DARB
to be a farily well organized and accurate (cross checked with Strongs
and other Bibles, when there is any doubt).  It's easy to find what I'm 
looking for - although I've been using the online bible for most of my 
verse searches lately.

   :-)

                       ---
                    -        --
                --( /     \ )XXXXXXXXXXXXX
            --XXX(   O   O  )XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-
           /XXX(       U     )        XXXXXXX\
         /XXXXX(              )--   XXXXXXXXXXX\
        /XXXXX/ (      O     )   XXXXXX   \XXXXX\
        XXXXX/   /            XXXXXX   \   \XXXXX----
        XXXXXX  /          XXXXXX         \  ----  -
---     XXX  /          XXXXXX      \           ---
  --  --  /      /\  XXXXXX            /     ---=
    -        /    XXXXXX              '--- XXXXXX
      --\/XXX\ XXXXXX                      /XXXXX
        \XXXXXXXXX                        /XXXXX/
         \XXXXXX                         /XXXXX/
           \XXXXX--  /                -- XXXX/
            --XXXXXXX---------------  XXXXX--
               \XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-
                 --XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX-

    Re: Sylvain in .44
    
    Here's *part* of the reason why I say Hagin participates in the "Faith
    movement" cult.  If you want more, just ask. 
    
"   Both Kenneth Copeland and Kenneth Hagin point to T.L. Osborn and William 
    Branham as true men of God who greatly influenced their lives and 
    ministries.  Of course, Osborn himself has consistently followed E.W. 
    Kenyon's Scripture-twisting antics, and Branham has (among other things) 
    denounced the doctrine of the Trinity as coming directly from the Devil.

Essek William Kenyon
--------------------
Essek William Kenyon, whose life and ministry were enormously impacted by such
cults as Science of Mind, the Unity School of Christianity, Christian Science,
and New Thought metaphysics, is the true father of the modern-day Faith
movement.  Many of the phrases popularized by present-day prosperity preachers,
such as "What I confess, I possess," were originally coined by Kenyon.  Kenneth
Hagin, to whom we next turn our attention, plagiarized much of Kenyon's work,
including the statement, "Every man who has been 'born again' is an incarnation,
and Christianity is a miracle.  The believer is as much an Incarnation as was
Jesus of Nazareth."

Kenneth E. Hagin
----------------
As I thoroughly demonstrate in my book "Christianity in Crisis" (Harvest House,
1993), Kenneth Hagin takes Kenyon's theology from bad to worse.  Not only does
he boast of alleged visits to heaven and hell, he recounts numerous out-of-body
experiences (OBEs) on the earth as well.  On one occasion, Hagin claims he was
in the middle of a sermon when, suddenly, he was transported back in time.  He
ended up in the back seat of a car and watched as a young woman from his church
committed adultery with the driver.  The entire experience last about fifteen
minutes, after which Hagin abruptly found himself back in church, summoning his
parishioners to prayer.  Despite his propensity for telling all tales and
describing false visions, virtually every major Faith teacher has been impacted
by Hagin - including such "luminaries" as Frederick K.C. Price and Kenneth
Copeland."

>Well, he certainly got into hot water not too long ago.  I was glad to
>have something pointed out to be careful about but still find the DARB
    
    That information came from CRI, not my pastor.  And as you confirmed,
    the information was supported from the article in "Christianity Today."
    
    Mike

>    That information came from CRI, not my pastor.  And as you confirmed,
>    the information was supported from the article in "Christianity Today."

It was not meant to say that it came from your pastor, Mike.  I said
that if your pastor was found to have some error, the methods used here
might well be a little different.  Perhaps not.

    I'm sorry brother that I dont know your name, so please understand that
    is why I refer to you as ::HEISER,Okay?
    Anyway,in reference to Hagin and Copeland.I'm not interested in getting
    into a theological debate.I'll have to agree with Karen and Andrew,this
    bickering and slamming is getting out of hand.If you dont appreciate 
    Hagin or Copeland;fine, but you have no right in portraying them as 
    "flakes" in order to turn others away. Again, many people around the
    world have been touched and blessed by these ministries.
    I suppose what I am really trying to say is this; If you dont have
    anything good to say, then dont say it. I just think we should do as 
    Jesus said; stay away from foolish arguments,exhort one another,and
    pray for one another. We're family, we may have doctrinal differences
    however we remain spiritually"related".
    
      No hard feelings Okay?
                                  
    
                                         In His service:
                                           Sylvain

    Sylvain, I don't have any hard feelings over this.  I prefer to view
    myself as the Watchman of Ezekiel 33 in regards to this topic.
    
    If an organization meets the characteristics of a cult, then it should
    be called a cult.  The faith movement does meet the characteristics of
    a cult so I don't give it creedence.  I'm not going to whitewash THE
    TRUTH because they speak truth *some* of the time.  Even the Mormons state
    that there is truth in all faiths, but when pressed, they'll admit that
    there is only 1 *TRUTH*.
    
>    pray for one another. We're family, we may have doctrinal differences
>    however we remain spiritually"related".
    
    I would agree only on the condition that the doctrinal differences are
    minor.  If the differences involve the attributes of God, the person of
    Christ, the nature of man, requirements of atonement, and the source of
    revelation, then I wholeheartedly disagree.
    
    So what is a cult?  Here are the general characteristics:
    
        1. Attributes of God - usually humanize God
        2. Person of Christ - usually strip His deity
        3. Nature of Man - usually deify man
        4. Requirements of Atonement - usually minimize sin
        5. Source of Revelation - usually ostracize the Scriptures
    
    The faith movement is big on #3, but also incorporate some of the
    others.  
    
    - Positive confession is creating your own reality based on your own
      power; only God can do this and it violates #3.
    - Hagin & Co. were influenced by people they called "great men of God"
      who also deny the Trinity and claim its demonic - #1.
    - Copeland claims Satan defeated Christ on the cross and calls God the
      greatest failure of all time - #1 & #2.
    - Benny Hinn promotes tritheism (#1) and says "man is a little god" (#3).
    - Fred Price says Jesus took on the nature of Satan on the cross (#2)
      and that the Lord's Prayer isn't for today's Christians (#5).
    - Paul Yonggi Cho (David Cho) when changing his name said David died
      and was resurrected in Paul's place (#3) and incorporates Buddhism and
      Hinduism practices into his "fourth dimension" power (#3).
    - Charles Capps says Jesus was a product of God's positive confession
      (#1 & #2).
    - Jerry Savelle says that words can speak your world into existence (#3).
    - Morris Cerullo says, "You're not looking at Morris Cerullo - you're
      looking at God.  You're looking at Jesus." (#3).
    - Paul Crouch not only supports and propagates these false doctrines on
      TBN, he donates money to cultic groups and individuals who not only
      deny the Trinity but claim that this essential of Christianity is a 
      pagan doctrine.  Pretty ironic given their name.  Crouch also says
      this about folks like me that speak the truth: "I think they're
      damned and on their way to hell; and I don't think there's any 
      redemption for them." (#3) 
    
    ...and nevermind the scams they use to rob people of money (i.e., Oral
    Roberts stating he was going to die unless he receive millions of
    dollars, and his hospital would be the one to cure cancer; John
    Avanzini and the 100-fold return, Marilyn Hickey's point of contact
    items which are basically indulgences, Robert Tilton, etc.).
    
    Mike

Mike, 
  Could any of your dashed list been taken out of context of what these people
said, claimed, or meant to say?  Is that a possibility in your mind or
otherwise?  I wonder what the contexts of those quotes were.

>    - Paul Yonggi Cho (David Cho) when changing his name said David died
>      and was resurrected in Paul's place (#3) and incorporates Buddhism and
>      Hinduism practices into his "fourth dimension" power (#3).

This guy is the head of probably the largest single Christian church in the
world.  Could this be a contextual cultural translation problem?  For example,
my name, Mark, means warlike.  I can see being convicted that the meaning of
my name is not as well suited as I'd prefer to be thought and so change my
name to Michael, after the archangel a servant of God.  I could use imaging
language to say that Mark died (the old identification) and Michael was
resurrected to take his place.  After all, this is the symbol of baptism!
Saul, being baptized was no longer Saul, but Paul.  New identity.

I have no idea what you say about the "fourth dimension" power, but I do
wonder if the people who compiled this literature have taken some things
out of context, the way many of us have in this conference based on the
jargon we've become accustomed to in our churches.  To reprint this for
consideration is one thing, but to portray what you display as TRUTH may
be a bit presumptious.  Please consider it.

Mark

    Mike:
    
    I definately agree with Mark. These are some very serious accusations
    you've brought forth. I also believe these have been taken out of
    context. When someone is determined that someone else is wrong they
    deliberately look for things that would discredit them,even if it taken
    out of context. You stated that they believe the Trinity is demonic and
    also that God was the greatest failure of all time. Give me a break!!!
    Im gonna call you on this one brother and ask that you cite your
    references. I will NOT believe it just because you said so, these are
    serious statements and I will look into it. 
    
     I await your sources.
                                 In His service:
                                    Sylvain

    Mark,
    
    Having read Paul Yonggi Cho's book "The Fourth Dimension" I can say
    that what Mike is entering with regard to Dr. Cho is correct.  Keep in
    mind that, as a Pentecostal evangelist, I may come off as taking a shot
    at one of my own but truth is truth.  Dr. Cho uses a kind of
    visualization technique to crystalize his faith (faith is the fourth
    dimension according to Dr. Cho).  Let me give you an example, as best
    as I can remember, from "The Fourth Dimension".
    
    There was a woman who had come to him who had been praying for a
    husband.  She had prayed for a long time but it did not seem as if God
    was hearing her prayers and He certainly was not answering her.  Dr.
    Cho asked the woman to describe the man for whom she was praying but
    she could not.  Dr. Cho's responded that herein lies the problem, she
    had not been specific enough with God so he COULD NOT respond to her
    prayer.  Dr. Cho made up a list of questions which identified the
    prospective husbands physical, tempermental and spiritual
    characteristics.  After compiling the list he said to the woman that
    they could now 'order' her husband from God (order is exactly the word
    he used).
    
    I believe that God answers prayer, and I believe that God answers
    specific prayer but I believe that some of what we hear being called
    prayer is nothing more than a witch's incantation in an attempt to
    manipulate God.
    
    This doctrine of Dr. Cho's developed early in his ministry when he
    needed a bicycle to get around the city.  He prayed and prayed for a
    bicycle but was not specific with his request.  According to "The
    Fourth Dimension", God spoke to him and told him that he needed to
    specify what kind and color of bicycle he needed.  Otherwise God could
    not respond.
    
    Kent
    

    I've heard an explanation of this 4D with an analogy to a 3D cube.  For
    example, a single line would be 1D.  A plane is 2D and includes the 1D
    (takes 4 lines to make a plane).  A cube is 3D and includes the 2D
    (takes 6 planes to make a cube).  Paul Cho says that the 4D is the
    spiritual and includes the 3D or physical.  This is both Biblically and
    geometrically incorrect.
    
    Re: sources
    
    I have over 150 sources to offer you.  I can photocopy them and send
    them to you, or just type in the ones you're interested in.  Also, CRI
    has an audio tape available of all these quotes so you can hear the
    context and hear them saying this nonsense with their own lips.  Let me
    know...
    
    Mike

    Mike:
    I really dont enjoy discussing this in the topic"A testimony of his
    love and faithfulness". Besides its not fair to the other readers. So
    this will be my last entry in this topic. Yes, I would like you to
    state your sources in regard to the following. I DO NOT want just the
    quotes themselves because I believe they ARE taken out of context, so
    if you could cite your source and page # I will research it myself.
    
    1) Branham as denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity as coming directly
    from the devil.
    2)Kenyon where he HIMSELF stated that his life was impacted by Science
    of Mind,Unity School of Christianity,Christian Science,and New Thought
    Metaphysics.
    3)Hagin's projection to the back seat of the car and watched someone      
      in the act of adultery.
    4) Where Copeland HIMSELF states that God is the greatest failure of
    all time.
    
    Maybe you can send it in the Defence of the faith movement topic.
    That way this topic can be used to share of the good things that Christ
    is doing and not on doctrinal differences.
    
    Again brother I really am approaching this discussion with an attitude
    of love, you are not my enemy, Okay? God bless and thanks for your
    Info.
    
                                  In His service:
                                     Sylvain

.58 and .59 (Kent and Mike)

You've read the book; I haven't.
I don't know Cho.
I have read your replies.

Kent,
  Even in your replies I see only probable "semantic" problems.  If Cho is
actually viewing God as a genie in the bottle to be ordered to produce things
we want or need, then you have a valid point.  However, if this is not Cho's
intent, that "order" implies "placing an order or request for goods" then 
how is this different than when we ask the father in faith?

Mike,
  As for 3d/4d, I have heard from secular theorists that time is the 4th
dimension.  How does 4d being thought of as the spiritual contradict
the Bible and geometry?  What is after length, height, and width that it
violates geometry?  And how is his attempt to explain faith as the fourth
dimension contradict scripture?

Now, it would be easy for Kent to say, Mike to say (once again),
read the book and judge for yourself, and perhaps we should.  Then
again, perhaps this is the advice that should be given up front,
for these accusations come out with explanations that lead to more 
questions.  I realize that you both value the truth and believe what
you have stated in these replies.  However, it is either a communication
problem, or perhaps an over-zealous cult-busting campaign, as I see things.

Lastly, and perhaps a tangent, how much does culture affect (a) the Truth
and (b) the way the Truth is presented?  (Missionaries to some hot african
country converted some natives and required them to wear starched white
shirts, pants, and ties, as was befitting proper Sunday dress.  Was this the
right thing to do?  Biblical?  How much should the Truth of the gospel affect
the culture?)

Mark

    Mark,
    
    The part of Dr. Cho's doctrine that I find objectionable is also
    prevalent in the WoF movement.  God can not do anything unless directed
    or invoked by man and when He does do something it is limited to the
    specifics of man's request.  I see it as insulting to God, who knows
    the secret places in the depths of man's heart, that He be reduced to a
    clerk at Sears & Roebuck.
    
    Customer:	I'd like a lawnmower
    Clerk:	What kind of lawnmower
    Customer:	I'd don't know
    Clerk:	If you don't know then I can't fill your order
    
    The mentality appears that God withholds His blessings until we get the
    paperwork right and then, in strict accordance with the contract, He
    reacts.
    
    Second there is the visualization concept in relationship to faith. 
    Let me say right here that God has place in my spirit specific
    things/people to pray about.  Things that I would not have otherwise
    known.  This is not the same thing.  We are talking about creating
    matter out of thought.  "Faith is the substance of things hoped for". 
    I visualize it, I order it, and my faith brings it to pass.  I heard
    Kenneth Copeland speaking on this subject in relationship to the six
    days of creation.  In his words we should be able to do the same thing
    if we had enough faith (Don't ask me for a specific date or the tape
    etc.  I don't have it.  It was over 10 years ago.)
    
    I was in the WoF movement for three years and was an associate pastor
    at a WoF church.  I realize that this by itself does not qualify me as
    any authority on the subject but, hopefully, I can add some insight and
    perspective.
    
    BTW, I agree that this string should be moved to another note.
    
    

 I will be moving the notes discussing the Faith movement to topic 157
 when I get the time, probably about noon today.




 Jim

    
    It is typical that when evidence is brought forth that the proponents
    of the faith movement take evasive maneuvers.  Read the book
    _Christianity_in_Crisis_ for starters.  Saying things like, "if you have
    nothing nice to say, say nothing at all" doesn't apply.  Jesus called
    the pharisees "vipers" he also warned of false prophets.  I will not
    stay silent while the perversion of God's Word is being defended.
    
      You dont have to watch too much of Ken Copeland's TV show to see the
    blasphemy presented.  
    
    Dan
     

      I still have a really hard time with the fact that this Ken Hagin
      fellow could possibly be a cultist all the while he has experienced
      what some believe is the baptism of the Holy Spirit/laying on of
      hands/all related feelings both physical and mental.  (See replies
      .29, .30 of topic #501.)
    
      Can anyone explain this?  Here's this guy.  He speaks in tongues,
      is filled with the presence of God all the while some here also
      have an identical experience, embrace it, and yet find some of what
      this guys spiritual beliefs are to be dangerous/cultish/off the wall,
      etc.
    
      That is a HUGE disconnect to me which no one has sought to even
      remotely explain.
    
      I believe the charismatic movement is the 'superset' and this faith
      thing is one subset of it (for the most part anyway).
    
      To repeat...how can Kenneth Hagin believe what some of you guys
      say he believes (with attendant harsh qualifications of it) and 
      *coexistent with that* experience speaking in tongues and an 
      immersion of God Himself in the heart (i.e. baptism of the Holy
      Spirit)?
    
      In other words, I can't see how the two can coexist and my sincere
      belief is that the charismatic thing cannot be the true speaking
      in tongues, baptism of the Holy Spirit, etc.  If it was, someone
      such as Ken Hagin could not be experiencing it all the while (at
      the same time) being off the wall (if you guys are right about him).
    
      Do you understand what I am saying?
    
      Just how is that possible?
    
      Given the above...am I really narrowminded to be 'scared as hell'
      of the charismatic experience???
    
      Truth be told...I am!!
    
      (Again...501.29,30 elaborates a bit more on this.)
    
                                                      Tony

 Notes .59-.83 moved from topic 505.



 Jim Co Mod

 Notes .59-.83 moved from topic 506.



 Jim Co Mod

    Tony,
    
    You've started from a false assumption which has led to a false
    conclusion.  Essentially there are three groups/movements/whatever
    involved here.  Charismatics, Pentecostals and Word of Faith.  They are
    not the same things although they do overlap in some areas, primarily
    around the baptism in the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts.  You may
    find WoF-Charismatics and you may find WoF-Pentecostals but not all
    Charismatics are WoF nor are all Pentecostals WoF.  There is a
    distinction between Charismatic and Pentecostal.  Your assumption would
    be like saying the Methodists are a sub-set of the Roman Catholic
    church because both have infant baptism.  I can give you more on the
    distinctives either here or off-line if you wish.
    
    Kent
    

      re: -1
    
      Hi Kent,
    
        The commonality I am talking about is that Ken Hagin has (and
        I presume does) experience the charismatic phenomenon.  The
        disconnect I am talking about is how it can be possible that 
        he could experience this AND be as off the wall as some of you
        say he is.  This (for me) causes me to seriously question the
        charismatic experience itself.  Especially in the light of it
        being alleged to be an immersion of the presence of God who
        leads to truth and convicts of sin, of righteoussness, and of
        judgment.
    
        If you haven't, please give 501.29,30 a read.
    
        On or offline is fine by me.
    
                                                     Thanks,
    
                                                     Tony

I suppose I need to clarify myself, having received a phone call from a
concerned friend.

As you know, there are few people here who strive for the truth as I do.
I go on record to climb over any doctrine for the truth.  Having said that,
why have I brought questions to those who make charges against some of
the people they have without reading their books, without seeing their
TV programs, without knowing the contexts of what they have said?

The reason I ask is because the approach to correcting error here seems
to lack the element of concern for - a bunch of things.  Let's assume for
a moment that there are young Christians who have come to know God through
some of these persons and their preaching.  Staying under this ministry
*might* lead to receiving a weak doctrine, some teachings that are 
questionable at best.  Ask yourself if the presentation of information
is designed to (a) bring people out of error or (b) keep people out of
error.  If one operates on (b) alone then there is no love.   Challenging
the doctrine against the truth is one thing; challenging a personality
is another that generally has detrimental effects to those who are still
weak in the faith but quickened under this ministry.  To say that XYZ is
a doctrine that is highly prone to error is one thing; to say that belonging
to a group under the teachings of ABC man or woman is another thing.

So, my objective in questioning the contexts of statements is to foster
better communication through which we can see that the doctrine of XYZ is
being challenged against the authority of Scripture, and not the people
who may be caught in it.

When Ace Lopez first spoke in here about having had the experience of tongues,
but found through Scripture that it was a lesser gift and has moved onto 
bugger and better things, it spoke volumes to me.  There are many who have
elevated the gift of tongues almost to a top priority when the Bible clearly
calls it a lesser gift - and I cannot believe that it should be used for
show or displayed like a Sunday School Attendance pin.

And for those who do place so much importance on this experience, perhaps
you can *at the very least* consider some of these "challengers" as the
weaker brother (without understanding) instead of blasphemers and false 
brethren.  But in all things, search the Scriptures to see what they have
to say about ANY doctrinal issue that you hold onto.  NO DOCTRINAL ISSUE 
IS TOO IMPORTANT TO PREVENT SCRUTINY BY THE SCRIPTURES.  Knowing the truth
is better than being found in error.

Hebrews 11:6b  "...God is a rewarder of those who *diligently* seek Him."

Mark

.85 Kent.

Now I would find it interesting, Kent, if you could give us a summary of 
some of the various churches and movements.

Charismatic - 
Pentecostal -
Word of Faith - 
Baptist - 
Lutheran - 
Presbyterian - 
Epsicopalian - 
Anglican - 
Catholic - 

Some others, too!  Lots of people don't know and would like to know the
various shades of differences between the churched.

Mark

    RE:157.81
    Dan: I,m not interested in reading a book about someone else's views
    and opinions. I want the sources themselves listed so I can research it
    myself. You appear as someone who is hasty in condemning a brother. You
    say Jesus called the pharisees "vipers" , does that put you in the same
    catagory as the apostles who asked Jesus "should we command fire down
    from heaven"?  Maybe you can see what Jesus replied.
    
    You also state that Copeland's TV. program is blasphemous. Are you
    implying that this puts him in the same class as Anton LaVey? I hope
    not. Perhaps you should choose your words more wisely!
    
    
    
                              In His service:
                                  Sylvain

 The book, Christianity in Crisis offers and extensive appendix with
 references to publications, recordings and various statements (all with 
 dates) of Misters Copeland, Hagin, Hinn, et al.



Jim

    re: .88
    
    Mark,
    
    I will put together a summary of the ones I know but even the brief
    list you have is more extensive than my scope of knowledge so I will
    have to defer on some of them.  Please allow me a little time to get
    the references together.
    
    Kent
    

    As information comes from the book "Christianity in Crisis" as
    previously mentioned by Mr. Yackel.  It's written by Hank Hanegraaff,
    president of CRI.
    
>    1) Branham as denouncing the doctrine of the Trinity as coming directly
>    from the devil.
    
    William Marrion Branham, "Revelation Chapter Four #3 (Throne of Mercy
    and Judgement)" (Jeffersonville, IN: Voice of God Recordings, Inc.,
    1961), audiotape #61-0108, side 2; cf. 
    
    Williams Marrion Branham, "Footprints on the Sands of Time: The
    Autobiography of William Marrion Branham, Part Two" (Jeffersonville,
    IN: Spoken Word Publications, 1975), 606-7.
    
>    2)Kenyon where he HIMSELF stated that his life was impacted by Science
>    of Mind,Unity School of Christianity,Christian Science,and New Thought
>    Metaphysics.
    
    My sources don't have such a quote.  It is considered more than obvious
    based on the evidence of his works, from eyewitnesses, and from
    external sources.  It's also worth mentioning that he attended
    Emerson College of Oratory which was a virtual hotbed for New Thought
    Metaphysics.  A number of authors, include Hank, have established
    his cultic origins:
    
    Charles Farah - "A Critical Analysis: The Roots and Fruits of 
                     Faith-Formula Theology"
    James M. Kinnebrew - "The Charismatic Doctrine of Positive Confession:
                       A Historical, Exegetical, and Theological Critique"
    D.R. McConnell - "The Kenyon Connection: A Theological and Historical
                     Analysis of the Cultic Origins of the Faith Movement",
                     "A Different Gospel"
    H. Terris Neuman - "An Analysis of the Sources of the Charismatic
                        Teaching of Postive Confession"
    Dale H. Simmons - "A Theological and Historical Analysis of Kenneth E.
                       Hagin's Claim to be a Prophet"
    
>    3)Hagin's projection to the back seat of the car and watched someone      
>      in the act of adultery.
    
    Kenneth E. Hagin, "The Glory of God" (Tulsa, OK: Kenneth Hagin
    Ministries, 1987), 13-15.
    
>    4) Where Copeland HIMSELF states that God is the greatest failure of
 >   all time.
    
    "I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible
    actually is....The biggest one in the whole Bible is God....Now, the
    reason you don't think of God as a failure is is He never said He's a
    failure.  And you're not a failure till you say you're one."
    
    Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-Thon" program on TBN (April 1988).
    
    "Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and
    authority God had given to him was handed over to Satan.  Suddenly, God
    was on the outside looking in....After Adam's fall, God found Himself
    in a peculiar positon....God needed an avenue back into the
    earth....God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it.  It gave
    God access to the earth and gave man access to God....Technically, if
    God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself."
    
    Kenneth Copeland, "Our Covenant with God" (Fort Worth, TX: KCP
    Publications, 1987), 8-11 passim.
    
    Please keep in mind that most of what's been discussed in here 
    so far is relatively *TAME* compared to the wealth of information *AND*
    documented sources in "Christianity in Crisis."  Some of the quotes
    will make you downright angry.
    
    Bottomline:  the Faith Movement centers around *their* formula for
    faith, the deification of man, the demotion of God, the deification of
    Satan, the demotion of Christ, several atonement atrocities
    (Re-Creation on the Cross, Redemption in Hell, Rebirth in Hell,
    Reincarnation), and of course, wealth and want.
    
    Mike

    Re: .87
    
    Mark,
    
    Good note.  I believe it is important to discuss doctrinal differences,
    and to search the scriptures.  We should have an intelligent faith.
    
    I have been concerned about a the TONE of several of the notes in this
    string, however.  As Mark states, our motive should be in love.  The
    Bible has a lot more to say about love, than it does about a lot of the
    issues that are being debated here.
    
    I Cor 13 addresses the kind of love that we are to have.  This is the
    way God loves each of us (God IS love).  Several times Jesus stated for 
    us to love each other in this same manner.  I Cor 13:13 says, "There
    are three things that remain- faith, hope, and love - and the greatest
    of these is love" (LB).  We are told that, "they will know us by our love 
    for one another".  Do doctrinal issues negate this?  John 1:12 says that, 
    "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to be call children
    of God".  Eph 2:8,9 says, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, 
    and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God".  If someone has, by faith,
    received Christ into their life, then I have no reason to say that they are
    not my brother in Christ.  They may be off base scripturally.  They may be 
    basing their relationship with the Lord on experiences alone.  The bible 
    never says that non-Christians will know us by how doctrinally sound we 
    are. It say that they will know us by our love for one another.  I believe 
    that if we admonish one another in a hateful way, we will drive the person
    further away from the Truth, rather than closer.
    
    To summarize, I believe we need to urge one another to walk in the
    Truth of the word and that the urging should always be done in an
    attitude of love.
    
    Heb 10:24,25 "And let us consider how to stimulate one another go love
    and good deeds, not forsaking our assembling together, as is the habit
    of some, but ENCOURAGING one another, and all the more as you see the
    day drawing near" (NASB).
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    

    re .93
    
    The should re

	Tony,

	I pray.  Oral Roberts prays.  By your reasoning, I should
	cease to pray because Oral Roberts, who some believe has
	erred greatly in his walk (for lack of a better way to say it)
	also prays.

	FWIW, tongues are not exclusive to the Faith Movement, and are
	discussed in scripture, as is the laying on of hands.  Please note,
	I'm not trying to defend the faith movement, only saying that
	I do not see these as "extra-biblical".  (Nor am I saying anything
	about anyone that does or does not operate in these gifts).

	Sigh, too many caveats needed these days...

	Karen

    Re: .93
    
    Heb 10:24,25 should read "stimulate one another TO love".
    
    Sorry about .94, my fingers are going too fast for my brain.
    
    Bing

    
    > book about someone else's views and opinions. I want the sources 
    themselves listed so I can research it myself.
    
     If I recall correctly there is at least 20 pages of footnotes that 
     document every quote presented. It was one of the most researched
     and documented books I have ever read.
    
    >You appear as someone who is hasty in condemning a brother.
    
     I am not condemming a brother, I am all for exposing false teaching so
     as not to have another stumble. 
    
    Maybe I should choose my words more wisely as you put it. Although I
    have never attacked you personally nor have I intended to.
    
    Dan 

    re:  .86
    
    I feel guilty, as I asked about Hagen and stirred some real
    controversy.  Here are some comments, while the others are doing their
    research.  (being lazy, this suits me - others doing the real work,
    that is.....)
    
    Tony, your note raises the main issue that I have with the
    sub-categories of Christianity that are on the charismatic side. 
    Namely, that the experience is either necessary or sufficient for a
    relationship with God.  At least that is how I'm reading .86.  
    
    If Hagen or anyone else experiences something like speaking in tongues
    or being slain in the spirit, are they Christians?  My answer is, I
    don't know.  Of course, ultimately God will judge us all.  But, there
    are clear statements in Scripture that lay out what it takes to be a
    Christian, or a follower of Christ.  They have to do with what we
    believe and what we do. 
    
    Regarding beliefs, orthodox Christian doctrine contains broad beliefs
    that are Biblically rooted, and to deny them is to at least call into
    question one's Christianity.  These include belief in the God of the
    Bible, belief in Christ's humanity and divinity, belief in the
    resurrection, the trinity, etc.  I Cor: 3-4...
    
    Regarding actions, we are commanded to do a number of things.  First
    and formost, it is to love God and love our neighbor.  Also, obdience
    to Christ, which takes in quite a bit, and the Great commission (Matt
    28:18-20) apply to all of us.  So, salvation is by faith - belief -
    which brings forth good works. In none of these fundamental passages is
    speaking in tongues or other evidences of the Spirit mentioned as being
    required for salvation, or required as evidence of being saved.  Gifts
    of the spirit come and go, as the Lord pleases.
    
    If Ken Hagen or any other person exhibits some behavior, I would probe
    what he believes to assess whether he can be called Christian.  The
    behavior is irrelvant.  It's the truth that sets us free, not exercise
    of the gifts of the spirit. The spirit of god guides us to the truth,
    but that truth is different from the gifts we receive from the spirit. 
    The gifts are for the purpose of building up the body, not for
    salvation.
    
    On another topic, add to the definition of a cult the pattern of
    authoritarian control.  This is usually in the definition, and implies
    that the leader exercises undue control over cult members.  CF Koresh.. 
    By that definition, I don't know if I would classify Hagen as a cult
    leader, maybe just a preacher of aberrent quasi-Christian theology.
    

    
    
     >You also state that Copeland's TV. program is blasphemous. Are you
     >implying that this puts him in the same class as Anton LaVey? I
     >hope not. Perhaps you should choose your words more wisely!
      
    
    I really dont want to go down a rat hole here, I would rather that we
    discuss the issues, if we can in an objective manner.  But to answer
    your question, a liar is as much a sinner as an adulterer.  
    
    I will not run away from this discussion and I would expect you would
    not also.  My real concern is that "if" this is false teaching (and I 
    believe there is much of it) then there will be many that will be lead
    astray.  I am not discounting any salvation experience that may have
    been fruitful because of what some have heard from these men.  God can
    and does use unconventional situations and circumstances to bring
    others to himself.  But as we grow as responsible Christians, who
    should be getting our milk and meat from God's Word, I believe that God
    will show his sovereignty. 
    
    Dan
    

    Bing:
     Right on, lets endeavor to do all this in love.
    

    Mike and Dan:
     
    I will read the book you mentioned.I appreciate your feedback and time
    in discussing this. I will not comment until I verify these issues.
    Fair enough?
     I hope to fellowship some more with you, preferably concerning matters
    which dont generate as much friction. Thanks.
    
                                         In His service:
                                            Sylvain

    You might want to check out the Fred Price quote in 157.42 also.

    Mike: I just did. I dont agree with that because I believe the Holy
    Spirit will dwell within anyone who opens their heart to Him, whether
    sick or well. However, this is his opinion and interpretation of
    scripture, that doesnt mean I will refer to him as a cultist.
    
    I do understand where your coming from though.
    
    God bless:                          In His service:
                                          Sylvain
           
    p.s  That reminds me of a good thought. Im going to put it in the
    "Thought for the day" . Thanks.

      re: .98
    
        Hi,
    
          I have NO DOUBT that many many people who engage in the
          charismatic experience are dear Christian brothers and 
          sisters.  I truly do doubt that this aspect of their 
          experience is of the Lord.
    
          And as I said...I am sure the Lord sees things in my heart
          (aspects of who I am and what I am up to) that are not of
          the Lord.  I am no better and perhaps worse!
    
          He winks at our ignorance...
    
        Hi Karen,
    
          The charismatic thing is something I have taken to the Lord
          with fervent prayer, study, reflection, contemplation, etc. 
          for years.  When I was first baptized, I hoped that coming out
          of the water, I would speak in tongues.  I thought that would
          be so neat.
    
          I have mainly tried to correlate this experience to sanctification
          and I see no correlation whatsoever.  Actually, it must then
          suppress the process of sanctification if it does not promote
          it.  
    
          I do not agree, but the only reply back to me that could give
          it any substantiation would be that it is a very minor gift;
          something God can manifest in someone even if that someone has
          the faith of a newborn (apparently).
    
          I believe (in contrast) that gifts of prophecy are things that
          God manifests in His believers only when they are (relative to
          us) absolute spiritual giants.  People like Jeremiah, John the
          Baptist, Jeremiah, Isaiah...
    
          But, anyway, I must walk in accordance to my convictions.  But,
          I also realize that by God's grace, I must allow my convictions
          to be changed by the wooing of God.
    
          I can embrace you as a sister in the Lord.  I can ask you (given
          your belief and thus from your perspective my indiscernment of 
          truth in this matter) to treat me in love as a weaker brother 
          in the faith.  I can fellowship with you and pray with you, etc.  
          I am not in any way suggesting that I am 'more sanctified' than 
          you - that my walk with Jesus is any closer.
    
          I just don't see anything but bad things with the charismatic 
          experience!  But, anyway, the main thing to see is Christlikeness
          of character.  I hope I can always see that and in seeing that,
          learn from God via people who manifest a more Christian
          character, all they do that enhances the closeness of their walk
          with the Lord.
    
          That's the bottom line for me and that is really the most
          disappointed I have been so far as replies back to me are
          concerned.  I've just not seen any tie between charismatic and
          sanctification.  In fact, I have actually heard some far out
          stories.  A recent one (read in newspaper) of a group of charis-
          matics that were packed in a van and decided to take all their
          clothes off.  They got arrested.  I've heard other strange
          things.  I don't know...it scares me.  And coupling that with
          the lack of fruit clearly connected to the experience itself...
          I'll just leave it alone.
    
                                                     God Bless,
    
                                                     Tony

    >  As for 3d/4d, I have heard from secular theorists that time is the 4th
>dimension.  How does 4d being thought of as the spiritual contradict
>the Bible and geometry?  What is after length, height, and width that it
>violates geometry?  And how is his attempt to explain faith as the fourth
>dimension contradict scripture?

    There is no logical basis for placing the supernatural realm into a 
    direct "cause & effect" relationship with our physical universe.  God
    visualizing the creation of the universe, and creating it out of
    Himself is New Age Pantheism.  God doesn't need anything to create
    something out of.  (This also defeats the New Age view of a female God. 
    A woman creates out of herself, out of the womb.  God creates out of
    nothing.)  Paul Cho says we can do it too.  He says God, Satan, demons,
    and man all dwell in this Fourth Dimension.  He says whatever they do,
    we (man) can do and you just have to follow the laws.  He claims his
    influence for this idea came out of him seeing Buddhists being
    "blessed" while his church members weren't.  He said God told him
    because they are developing the laws of the Fourth Dimension.  Kenneth
    Hagin pretty much states the same thing.

    To be simplistic, the natural and supernatural are governed by
    different laws.  Everything in the natural realm has to obey the laws
    of nature (imposed by God), and when it works, it's not a miracle.  We 
    call it science (i.e., gravity, speed of light, etc.).  God is not bound 
    by any laws or physical geometry.  The Bible tells us that He is
    omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.  Anything that works by laws, is 
    not a miracle, yet this is the basis of Christian Science and is New Age.  
    Mary Baker Eddy calls Jesus "The Scientist!"  Some people today even 
    consider Jesus to be a psychiatrist.  Anyway, the physical is naturalism.

    Supernaturalism is God intervening in His universe over His laws and
    doing a miracle.  Big difference!  

    Mike

    Okay, here are the summaries I promised, though not exactly short.
    
    The summary of Pentecostalism will be rather lengthy but once I have 
    established it then I can discuss the Charismatic Movement and the Word 
    of Faith Movement in relationship to it.
    
    Pentecostalism, or the Pentecostal Movement is the oldest of the three 
    mentioned above.  While Pentecostalism began to be defined in the late 
    1800s to early 1900s it shares a common development with many 
    non-Pentecostal evangelical denominations.  Kind of a different branch 
    of the tree sharing a common trunk (a branch that some would like to 
    see pruned).  The common error in defining Pentecostalism is in 
    assuming that "it's a tongues thing".  The baptism in the Holy Spirit 
    with the initial physical evidence of speaking in other tongues is only 
    a small portion of the why and how Pentecostalism came to be.  It is 
    also about restorationism, premillennialism, healing and the purpose 
    and work of the Holy Spirit to name just a few of the main influences 
    which birthed Pentecostalism.
    
    In the early 1800s restorationism could best be defined as the attempt 
    to recover the vitality and message, if not the form, of the Apostolic 
    Church.  There were four main influences of restorationist thought 
    regarding the development of Pentecostalism, not to be confused with 
    the doctrines which eventually emerged from these influences.  One was 
    the hope of perfection.  Perfection meant returning to the norms of the 
    First Church regardless of history.  Second, restorationism promoted 
    assumptions of Christian unity and simplicity.  Third, it introduced 
    eschatological issues which had to be addressed.  Fourth, 
    restorationist thought fostered anti- denominationalism.  There are 
    still those within the Assemblies of God who cringe if you suggest that 
    the AG is a denomination, "It is a movement or a fellowship but not a 
    denomination".
    
    Pentecostalism developed it's premillennialist doctrine partially in 
    response to the emerging dispensational thought of John Nelson Darby.  
    While Darby's message was essentially neutral with regard to societal 
    involvement, men like R. A. Torrey took a decidedly negative point of 
    view.  A. J. Gordon, a Baptist pastor, rejected Darby's chronology of 
    events but retained the essence of his premillennial doctrine and 
    developed a restorationist eschatology which would include the 
    exercising of apostolic power and spiritual gifts.  While a 
    premillennial position is asserted among most, if not all, 
    Pentecostals, there is still a divergence of opinion as to pre-trib, 
    post-trib or mid-trib rapture of the Church.
    
    While other gifts of the Spirit were held at bay the ministry of 
    healing was given a prominent place of study in many evangelical 
    circles including D. L. Moody's Northfield conferences.  This renewed 
    interest had several sources.  First, there was a renewed focus on 
    healing as "in the Atonement" and as one of the end-times gifts of the 
    Spirit.  Second, it harmonized with restorationism.  Third, healing was 
    closely tied to conceptions of the "higher Christian life."  Fourth, 
    there was a broader cultural focus on health.  Fifth, it was partially 
    in response to unorthodox healing movements like Christian Science and 
    Unity.  Pentecostals hold the position that healing in all facets of 
    our life is a provision of the atonement.
    
    The Pentecostal view of the Holy Spirit developed out of the 
    controversy (for lack of a better word) around the Wesleyan doctrine of 
    holiness.  While Methodism maintained a second work of grace and entire 
    sanctification there was an opposing camp who, while maintaining the 
    emphasis on personal holiness, denied the basic premise of the 
    necessity of two works of grace and rejected the language of 
    instantaneous, entire sanctification.  This camp was generally attended 
    by Baptists, Presbyterians and Congregationalists.  Central to this 
    second camp was Dwight L. Moody.  He wrote:
    
            There are two epochs in my life which stand our 
            clear.  One is when I was between 18 and 19 years 
            old, when I was born of the Spirit.  There can 
            never come a greater blessing to a man on this 
            earth than to be born again, born from above, to 
            have the God-nature planted in him.
            
            God has been good to me.  He has showered 
            blessing after blessing upon me; but the greatest 
            blessing, next to being born again, came 16 years 
            after, when I was filled with the Spirit, and it 
            has never left me.
            
            D.L. Moody, "Testimony of D.L. Moody", pg 2
    
    Moody referred to the result of this filling with the Spirit as an 
    "enduement with power".  Because of this experience Moody encouraged 
    further study on the subject of the Spirit filled life.  There was a 
    third, mediating camp between the Wesleyan (instantaneous 
    sanctification) and the Non-Wesleyan (progressive sanctification) 
    positions.  One, Charles G. Finney, maintained a second crisis 
    experience but taught that it was not a cleansing work of grace but 
    rather an enduement with power which lead to "Christian perfection".  
    The Pentecostal view on sanctification varies somewhat along 
    denominational lines.  While the Church of God maintains a more 
    Wesleyan position but equates the second work of grace with the baptism 
    in the Holy Spirit and the enduement with power, the Assemblies of God 
    holds that sanctification is both an instantaneous and a continuous 
    work.  Instantaneous in that, when one is born again he is sent apart 
    unto God and continuous in that he continues to grow in grace that the 
    nature of God may be perfected in him.

    Dr. A. B. Simpson, the founder of the Christian and Missionary 
    Alliance, tremendously influenced current Pentecostal thought with his 
    Christocentrism regarding healing, sanctification, and the Holy Spirit.  
    His teaching later came to be know as the fourfold gospel: Christ the 
    Savior, Healer, Sanctifier and Coming King.  They translated into 
    current Pentecostal fourfold or full gospel as Christ the Savior, 
    Healer, Baptizer in the Holy Spirit and Coming King.  The definition of 
    tongues as the initial physical evidence came nearly ten years after 
    Azusa Street, in 1916, but it remains as, what is called, the 
    Pentecostal Distinctive.
    
    The event that most commonly is identified with the birth of 
    Pentecostalism is the revival at 312 Azusa Street in Los Angeles, 1906.  
    An unattractive building at best.  What was important was what was 
    happening inside.  Seven days a week 24 hours a day, it was filled with 
    men and women who came to experience the presence and power of God with 
    prayer and praise, and, yes, speaking in other tongues.  The leader 
    (though he was not there at the outset) was an unassuming man named 
    William Seymour.  There was very little preaching and seemingly no 
    order to the affair.  Azusa Street was one of many focal points for the 
    crystallization of the above influences in the experience of the 
    baptism in the Holy Spirit in the U.S..  Similar outpourings were 
    already taking place in other parts of the United States and Europe 
    (particularly the Welsh Revival).
    
    Some of the groups which were either influenced as a result of Azusa 
    Street or came to be as a direct result of it are:
    
       	    Assemblies of God
       	    Church of God (Cleveland, TN)
       	    Church of God in Christ
       	    Foursquare Gospel Church
       	    Christian and Missionary Alliance
    
    There were also various smaller missions and Apostolic Faith churches, 
    some of which are still around.
    
    The prevalent antidenominational attitude among early Pentecostals 
    nearly destroyed the movement shortly after it began.  Without the 
    organizational guidelines there was an abundance of diversity regarding 
    key doctrines, including the Trinity.  In 1913 Maria Woodworth-Etter 
    was holding crusades in California.  During one of the meetings John 
    Schaeppe began to 'pray' about the miracles he had seen "in the name of 
    Jesus".  In the morning he received a "revelation of the power of the 
    name of Jesus."  This revelation was one factor in the Oneness doctrine 
    among some Pentecostals.  A second influence was Frank Ewart, an 
    Australian Baptist preacher.  His teaching that Lord, Jesus and Christ 
    were actually three titles which corresponded to the Father, Son and 
    Holy Spirit embodied in Jesus and that all who were baptized in the 
    Trinitarian formula of "the name of the Father and in the name of the 
    Son and in the name of the Holy Spirit" needed to be rebaptized 
    according to the Jesus only formula.  Each denomination addressed the 
    issue within their own organizational structure.  At the 1916 General 
    Council of the Assemblies of God adopted the first version of the 
    Statement of Fundamental Truths which upheld and affirmed the Nicean 
    Council's position of Three Persons/One God, essentially the same 
    (homoousios) yet distinct in relationship and function.
    
    The Charismatic Movement began in the late 1950s to early 1960s 
    depending on who you read.  It's difficult to pinpoint a date only 
    because there is no specific event that you can point to to say, "Here 
    is where it began."  By design the Charismatic Movement began within 
    existing denominations fostered by outside "fellowships" such as Full 
    Gospel Businessmen's Fellowship International and it's sister 
    organization Women's Aglow.  During this time there grew a hunger 
    within non-Pentecostal denominations for a manifestation of the Spirit.  
    People, clergy and laity, began to realize the validity of the baptism 
    in the Holy Spirit and wanted to experience more of God, without 
    leaving the Episcopal/Baptist/ Presbyterian/Catholic/Whatever church.  
    Whereas Pentecostalism is a thread that runs through the whole faith, 
    the Charismatic Movement added to the existing belief system creating 
    Charismatic-Baptists, Charismatic-Catholics etc... and while it is not 
    "a tongues thing" it is a "Holy Spirit thing".  
    
    The charismatic doctrine of twenty years ago was that there is an 
    experience called the baptism in the Holy Spirit or infilling of the 
    Holy Spirit (there are other names as well) and that through this 
    experience the gifts (charismata) are released and available in the 
    individual believer's life as the Holy Spirit directs, for the benefit 
    of the body.  It does not effect the believer's eschatology or his 
    present view of holiness, the sacraments of the church, baptism, etc..  
    This is the way it began.  However, established churches were not all 
    tolerant of this new teaching going on within their walls especially 
    when it came from the clergy and many ministers were disfellowshipped.  
    Others left because they felt somehow compromised or limited by their 
    denominational structure.  This gave rise to the nondenominational 
    charismatic church in the late 60s to early 70s that we see today.  We 
    are just beginning to see a generation of ministers who have never been 
    a part of a denomination.  The interdenominational fellowships and 
    conferences provided a forum for other movements to take hold.  And 
    with the birth of the independent church these new teachings were able 
    to take root, Discipleship or Shepherding Movement, Kingdom Now, and 
    Word of Faith, to name a few.  Word of Faith actually pre-existed the 
    Charismatic Movement in concept but not in name but the independent 
    church gave rise to it's popularity.  Let me say right here that not 
    all independent charismatic churches are Word of Faith or Shepherding 
    or Kingdom Now but the independent charismatic church has wrongly come 
    to be identified with these movements.  

    The Word of Faith Movement is difficult to pinpoint doctrinally since 
    it is constantly changing based on the most current revelation of it's 
    leaders.  Some of the fundamental teachings are:
    
       1)   Faith is a force which is controlled by the tongue.
       2)   An amillennial eschatology.  The Church will reign for 1000 
       	    years.
       3)   Man is an incarnation of God.
       4)   The atonement was NOT accomplished on the cross but in the 
       	    grave.
       5)   The baptism in the Holy Spirit with the active manifestation of 
       	    all of the gifts.  (In my experience tongues are actually given 
       	    a minor role among the gifts with faith taking pre-eminence 
       	    over all, the remaining "power gifts" and "revelatory gifts" 
       	    coming in second)
    
    I am sure that somewhere in here I have offended someone who can say, 
    "It's not like that in my church".  In advance, I apologize.  The 
    offense is not intentional but given the broad goal of summarizing 
    three different movements great generalizations were necessary based on 
    observed and documented norms.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    
    I have include the Statement of Fundamental Truths in the next reply 
    for your benefit and comment.  The doctrines represented here will be 
    fairly consistent across denominational lines among Pentecostals.  
    Also, the Assemblies of God have published statements denouncing the 
    doctrine of positive confession, Kingdom Now theology, and the extremes 
    of the Shepherding Movement.

                        STATEMENT OF FUNDAMENTAL TRUTHS
    
    1. THE SCRIPTURES INSPIRED -
       The Scriptures, both the Old and the New Testament, are verbally 
    inspired of God and are the revelation of God to man, the infallible, 
    authoritative rule of faith and conduct.
    
    2. THE ONE TRUE GOD -
       The one true God has revealed Himself as the eternally self-existant 
    "I AM", the creator of heaven and earth and the Redeemer of mankind.  
    He has further revealed Himself as embodying the principles of 
    relationship and association as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
    
    3. THE DEITY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST -
       The Lord Jesus Christ is the eternal Son of God.  The Scriptures 
    declare: (a) His virgin birth, (b) His sinless life, (c) His miracles, 
    (d) His substitutionary work on the cross, (e) His bodily resurrection 
    from the dead, (f) His exaltation to the right hand of God.
    
    4. THE FALL OF MAN -
       Man was created good and upright; for God said, "Let us make man in 
    our image, after our likeness."  However, man by voluntary 
    transgression, fell and thereby incurred not only physical death but 
    also spiritual death, which is the separation from God.
    
    5. THE SALVATION OF MAN -
       Man's only hope of redemption is through the shed blood of Jesus 
    Christ the Son of God.
       (a)  Conditions to salvation
       	    Salvation is received through repentance toward God and faith 
       	    toward the Lord Jesus Christ.  By the washing of regeneration 
       	    and renewing of the Holy Ghost, being justified by grace 
       	    through faith, man becomes an heir of God according to the hope 
       	    of eternal life.
       (b)  Evidence of salvation
       	    The inward evidence of salvation is the direct witness of the 
       	    Spirit.  The outward evidence to all men is a life of 
       	    righteousness and true holiness.
    
    6. THE ORDINANCES OF THE CHURCH -
       (a)  Baptism in water
       	    The ordinance of baptism by immersion is commanded in the 
       	    Scriptures.  All who repent and believe on Christ as Savior and 
       	    Lord are to be baptized.  Thus they declare to the world that 
       	    they have died with Christ and that they also have been raised 
       	    with Him to walk in newness of life.
       (b)  Holy Communion
       	    The Lord's Supper, consisting of the elements - bread and the 
       	    fruit of the vine - is the symbol expressing our sharing the 
       	    divine nature of our Lord Jesus Christ; a memorial of His 
       	    suffering and death; and a prophecy of his second coming; and 
       	    is enjoined on all believers "till He comes!"
    
    7. THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST -
       All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and 
    earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the baptism in the Holy Ghost 
    and fire, according to the command of our Lord Jesus Christ.  This was 
    the normal experience of all in the early Christian church.  With it 
    comes the enduement of power for life and service, the bestowment of 
    the gifts and their uses in the work of the ministry.  This experience 
    is distinct from and subsequent to the experience of the new birth.  
    With the baptism in the Holy Ghost comes such experiences as an 
    overflowing fullness of the Spirit, a deepened reverence for God, and 
    intensified consecration to God and dedication to His work, and a more 
    active love for Christ for His Word, and for the lost.
    
    8. THE INITIAL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM IN THE HOLY GHOST -
       The baptism of believers in the Holy Ghost is witnessed by initial 
    physical sign of speaking with other tongues as the Spirit of God gives 
    them utterance.  The speaking in tongues in this instance is the same 
    in essence as the gift of tongues, but different in purpose and use.
    
    9. SANCTIFICATION -
       Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and 
    of dedication unto God.  The scriptures teach a life of "holiness 
    without which no man shall see the Lord".  By the power of the Holy 
    Ghost we are able to obey the command; "Be ye holy, for I am holy".  
       Sanctification is realized in the believer by recognizing his 
    identification with Christ in His death and resurrection, and by faith 
    reckoning daily upon the fact of that union, and by offering every 
    faculty continually to the dominion of the Holy Spirit.  
    
    10. THE CHURCH AND IT'S MISSION -
       The Church is the body of Christ, the habitation of God through the 
    Spirit, with divine appointments for the fulfillment of her great 
    commission.  Each believer, born of the Spirit, is an integral part of 
    the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in 
    heaven.
       Since God's purpose concerning man is to seek and to save that which 
    was lost, to be worshipped by man, and to build a body of believers in 
    the image of His Son, the priority reason-for-being of the Assemblies 
    of God as part of the Church is:
       (a)  To be an agency of God for evangelizing the world.
       (b)  To be a corporate body in which man may worship God.
       (c)  To be a channel of God's purpose to build a body of saints 
       	    being perfected in the image of His Son.
       The Assemblies of God exists expressly to give continuing emphasis 
    to this reason-for-being in the New Testament apostolic pattern by 
    teaching and encouraging believers to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.  
    This experience; 
       (a)  Enable them to evangelize in the power of the Spirit with 
       	    accompanying supernatural signs.
       (b)  Adds a necessary dimension to a worshipful relationship with 
       	    God.
       (c)  Enable them to respond to the full working of the Holy Spirit 
       	    in expression of fruit and gifts and ministries as in New 
       	    Testament times for the edifying of the body of Christ.
    
    11. THE MINISTRY -
       A divinely called and scripturally ordained ministry has been 
    provided by our Lord for the threefold purpose of leading the church 
    in: (1) evangelization of the world, (2) worship of God, and (3) 
    building a body of saints being perfected in the image of His Son.
    
    12. DIVINE HEALING -
       Divine healing is an integral part of the gospel.  Deliverance from 
    sickness is provided for in the atonement, and is the privilege of all 
    believers.
    
    13. THE BLESSED HOPE -
       The resurrection of those who have fallen asleep in Christ and their 
    translation together with those who are alive and remain unto the 
    coming of the Lord is the imminent and blessed hope of the Church.
    
    14. THE MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST -
       The second coming of Christ includes the rapture of the saints, 
    which is our blessed hope, followed by the visible return of Christ 
    with His saints to reign on the earth for 1000 years.  This millennial 
    reign will bring the salvation of national Israel and the establishment 
    of universal peace.
    
    15. THE FINAL JUDGMENT -
       There will be a final judgment in which the wicked dead will be 
    raised and judged according to their works.  Whosoever is not found 
    written in the Book of Life, together with the devil and his angels, 
    the beast and the false prophet, will be consigned to everlasting 
    punishment in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is 
    the second death.
    
    16. THE NEW HEAVENS AND THE NEW EARTH -
       "We, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth 
    wherein dwelleth righteousness".
    

Thanks, Kent.  Perhaps your four notes can be separated from this string?

---------------------------------------------
.105 Mike Heiser

>    Supernaturalism is God intervening in His universe over His laws and
>    doing a miracle.  Big difference!  

I'm not seeing such a big difference between "the natural and supernatural 
are governed by different laws" and these verses:

Romans 1:20  For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world
are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 1:15  Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of
every creature:
 16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in
earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or
principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

>    Supernaturalism is God intervening in His universe over His laws and
>    doing a miracle.  Big difference!  

What is the difference?  If God is "the King eternal, immortal, invisible, 
the only wise God" (1 Tim 1:17) then His natural state is supernatural.
I don't get it.  I mean, If God defines the "laws of nature" then uses
those "laws" - redefining them (performing a miracle)...

If these people are saying that mankind can perform miracles outside of
God's power (cf Elijah, for example), that is to say in and by themselves,
then they are all wet.  But by what you've communicated, all I see is
an anglacized interpretation of an oriental cultural influence on what
is read from the scriptures.  Perhaps I'm wrong but that's what it looks
like to me.  Is Pastor Cho really compromising sound doctrine, or is he
drawing upon a cultural knowledge base (as Paul did quoting secular writers)
to make attempt at explaining some mystical areas of faith?  I wonder
how much the language barrier plays in the understanding of what is being
conveyed?  Many of us have learned interesting things when we've studied
Greek and Hebrew from the cultural base in which the texts were written.

I suppose this boils down to the context of what message was meant to be sent 
and what message was received through what filters, and how those filters
affect the message).  You seem awful sure that this is what was being 
communicated, when it seems to me that a misunderstanding is probable 
from what you've relayed to us in this forum.

Mark

    Kent, I know those 16 AG Tenets of Faith well ;-)
    
>If these people are saying that mankind can perform miracles outside of
>God's power (cf Elijah, for example), that is to say in and by themselves,
>then they are all wet.  But by what you've communicated, all I see is
    
    they *DO* say this.  They've also reduced God's abilities.
    
>I suppose this boils down to the context of what message was meant to be sent 
>and what message was received through what filters, and how those filters
>affect the message).  You seem awful sure that this is what was being 
>communicated, when it seems to me that a misunderstanding is probable 
>from what you've relayed to us in this forum.
    
    If you've misunderstood, I take the blame.  Better men than I are quite
    clear on this matter.
    
    Mike

    Greg, first of all let me state that the article you are referencing to
    me was written by your buddy Hank Hannegraff.  I can't answer
    completely for him, but will still try to address some points if you
    wish.
    
    Re: A/G
    
    I was involved with them from the time I was 12 until I was 29.  I
    attended Leominster A/G as well as some here in Phoenix.  I never heard
    the "name it and claim it" type professions while I was involved with
    them.
    
    Mike

 reply .116 hidden pending clean up of language.


 


 Jim

    Greg, I'm not a moderator, but the sources for these quotes have been
    verified and judged by God's Word.  The subjects in question have been
    found lacking in solid Biblical foundation in the quotes that have been
    pointed out.  The Bible is the foundation of this conference as well.
    You really owe it to yourself to research the quotes.  The numbers are
    in parentheses.  Tell me what sources you're interested in and I can
    post them or mail you a hardcopy.
    
    Mike

>    	You _say_ that they are verified and judged
>    	by God's Word, but I want you to _prove_ your points, or 
>    	remove them.
    
    	Consider the opposite.  *You* say they are not.  Prove your
    	point, or remove your challenge.

    	re .123
    
    	We're not talking about guilt or innocence.  We're talking
    	about supporting ones point of view.  All I was doing was
    	asking you to walk in the other guy's shoes.

>    			You _say_ that they are verified and judged
>    	by God's Word, but I want you to _prove_ your points, or 
>    	remove them.
    
    You said you read "Christianity in Crisis," which is where the article
    you're referencing comes from.  If you really want an answer, summon
    the sources of all those that are called into question.  It's really
    not that hard, assuming you've read it.
    
    Mike

>    			That is very wrong.  In every court of law, inc.
>    	in the Jewish courts, the accused has always been allowed to hear
>    	what their accusers have to say against them.  In this country,
>    	a man is presumed innocent until proven guilty.  What you are 
>    	supposing is that this man is obviously guilty unless someone can
>    	prove the opposite.  That is not the way things work.  Not in the
>    	Bible.  Not in America.   Not even in Roman law.
    
    The book has been out there for a couple years now and none of these
    men have taken time on their TV programs to address the accusations. 
    If they were misinterpreted, they would've said so by now.
    
>    			To play witch-hunt after Hagin in a forum which
>    	he cannot respond to I consider to be a gross sin against him.
>    	It is highly anti-Biblical.    
    
    There is nothing in here that isn't already at a national level to
    which he has also failed to respond to.

    Greg, it seems God has been dealing with me on this subject for the
    past couple months.  You see, there was a time when I listened to some
    of these men.  Going back to the analogy of the Israelites in the
    wandering in the desert.  God sustained them through manna (meat of the
    Word) and living water (the Holy Spirit).  Being from A/G, I was trying
    to live off the living water and was being neglected the manna that I
    needed.  I came to a point a few years ago where I started to sense in
    my spirit that there must be more to this life because I was feeling
    stagnant.  When I found a church that provided me with the manna, as
    well as allowing the flow of the living water, I had some mixed emotions.  
    One was a great feeling of joy, because my spirit was feeling alive again. 
    Another was a grudge against these people for wasting so many years of
    my life for learning nothing about the Word and living off the Spirit.

    As grudges go, it became a problem.  I got to the point where I had to
    issue some apologies to some people.  I'd like to do that here.  I want
    to apologize to you, Greg, and for the other believers in this forum of
    the Body for being a little too harsh on these people.  I want you to
    know where I was coming from.
    
    One good thing from all this is that I've developed the Bible 'bug.'  I
    simply can't get enough of it.  I was starved for so long, I'm
    overeating (if that's possible with the Bible)!  I felt like I learned
    more in my first year than I did in my previous 10 years at A/G.  This
    country most certainly needs more great Bible *teachers*!  Preachers
    (topical sermons) don't really supply us with manna - it's milk for
    babes.  They just relate things to us that we may already know, but need 
    to be reminded of sometimes.  Teaching is the way to go - it's where the 
    meat comes from.

    However, being the ornery cuss that I am, I will never apologize for
    not compromising the truth of His Word - the Bible.  These ministries
    may not be all bad, and they may not be cultic.  But these ministries
    have some idiosyncrasies that don't mesh with God's Word and people
    need to be very cautious about what they listen to.  They need to be
    Bereans to make sure they are standing on a solid Biblical foundation.  
    Greg, that's all I'm asking of you.  Check out the points in the book
    where they are accused of having cultic tendencies.  Obtain the sources
    where these quotes come from to verify for yourself that they were
    actually said.  Compare the quotes with what God's Word says.  You can
    try to debate me until you're blue in the face, but your problem isn't
    with me.  It's with these ministries and God's Word.  You owe it to
    yourself to do the research.

    God Bless,
    Mike

    BTW - you might be interested in knowing that Dr. Walter Martin was
    working on a book about the Faith Movement before he died.  Hank took
    up the project when he became the new president of CRI after Martin's
    death.

    The previous few notes will be moved to chit-chat as they are off the
    topic.
    
    Please check topic 14 if your note is missing from this string.
    
    Nancy
    co-moderator CHRISTIAN
    
    

     Greg,
    
    You are persistant.  As I told you yesterday, TWICE, I would respond
    when my workload permits.  I am not being paid by Digital to write
    notes or mail but it is a privilege I enjoy as I am able.  Since you
    chose to take a small portion of my reply out of it's context and
    without the attached disclaimers I have reprinted it here in case you 
    should want to read the whole reply this time.  You will note that I
    pointed out the inherant difficulty in pinpointing Word of Faith
    doctrine.  This is true not only because it is constantly changing but
    because it is not consistantly applied in every church that wears the
    name Word of Faith.  Therefore, you will also note that I did not apply
    any names to my statements so as not to imply that if Kenneth Hagin
    said it then every Word of Faith church believes it.  This is clearly
    not true.  If you should read further you will see that I acknowledged
    that there would be some who could say, "It's not like that in my
    church."  I was asked to make some generalizations.  Generalizations,
    by their nature, are general and not specific.  As to the sources for
    my statements I will first say that in 1980 I was an independent
    charismatic evangelist.  My doctrine and my ministry were shaped by the
    teachings of Kenneth Hagin Sr., Kenneth Copeland, Novel Hayes, T.L.
    Osborne and Jerry Savelle (to name a few).  In 1983, I became a
    co-pastor of a Word of Faith church in Ohio.  I have some of my
    statements are based on what I personally heard from the mouths of
    these men.  No tapes, no books.  BUT, that is not to say that these
    same doctrines are not found in their tapes and books.  Below is a
    short list of the reference material, FROM MY LIBRARY, which
    substantiate what I am saying:
    
    Spirit, Soul and Body	Kenneth Copeland	tapes
    The Force of Faith		Kenneth Copeland	book
    The Power of the Tongue	Kenneth Copeland	book
    Authority of the Believer	Kenneth Copeland	tape
    The Force of Love		Kenneth Copeland	tape
    The Tongue-A Creative Force	Charles Capps		book/tapes
    Authority in Three Worlds	Charles Capps		book
    Zoe: The God Kind of Live	Kenneth Hagin		book
    The Name of Jesus		Kenneth Hagin		book
    Two Kinds of Faith		E.W. Kenyon		book
    What Happened from the Cross to the Throne
    				E.W. Kenyon		book
    
    This last book is probably the cornerstone of the doctrine of
    atonement for most in the Word of Faith movement.
    
    As to sending a letter to Kenneth Hagin or any other group or
    individual, I made my reasons known when I left the movement in 1989
    and I feel no other obligation to do so.  Those reasons included not
    only the doctrinal position but also what I perceived to be a radical
    move into the area of metaphysics.
    
    This is the only defense of my statements that I will make.  I will not
    entertain your apparent persecution complex nor will I waste this
    conferences time with needless bantering and strife.
    
    Kent
     
    
    
           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 157.108                   The Faith Movement                     108 of 133
MIMS::CASON_K                                        32 lines  27-JUN-1994 10:24
                                -< Part 3 of 4 >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Word of Faith Movement is difficult to pinpoint doctrinally since 
    it is constantly changing based on the most current revelation of it's 
    leaders.  Some of the fundamental teachings are:
    
       1)   Faith is a force which is controlled by the tongue.
       2)   An amillennial eschatology.  The Church will reign for 1000 
       	    years.
       3)   Man is an incarnation of God.
       4)   The atonement was NOT accomplished on the cross but in the 
       	    grave.
       5)   The baptism in the Holy Spirit with the active manifestation of 
       	    all of the gifts.  (In my experience tongues are actually given 
       	    a minor role among the gifts with faith taking pre-eminence 
       	    over all, the remaining "power gifts" and "revelatory gifts" 
       	    coming in second)
    
    I am sure that somewhere in here I have offended someone who can say, 
    "It's not like that in my church".  In advance, I apologize.  The 
    offense is not intentional but given the broad goal of summarizing 
    three different movements great generalizations were necessary based on 
    observed and documented norms.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    
    I have include the Statement of Fundamental Truths in the next reply 
    for your benefit and comment.  The doctrines represented here will be 
    fairly consistent across denominational lines among Pentecostals.  
    Also, the Assemblies of God have published statements denouncing the 
    doctrine of positive confession, Kingdom Now theology, and the extremes 
    of the Shepherding Movement.

    .136
    
    Greg,
    
    Kent has explained himself well in his note.  You may reject it and
    agree to disagree, but the spirit of negativity needs to end.
    
    I understand that you feel offended for your spiritual leaders.  But
    nonetheless, each individual is answerable before God for their
    salvation and doctrine.  And it is this individuality that allows for
    the body of Christ to function.  
    
    If you wish to pursue this further, take it offline.
    
    Thank you,
    the Moderators of CHRISTIAN:
    
    Nancy Morales
    Jim Henderson
    Andrew Yuille
    Bing Hunt
    co-moderator CHRISTIAN
    

So start your suit.

�                     <<< Note 157.138 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>
�                    -< Libel suits start this way, Nancy. >-

Not betwen Christians....

							Andrew

    Amen, Andrew!

    Christians are to be workman that need not to be ashamed.
    
    This is part of that process... as I stated earlier we all will
    individually become accountable before God for what we believe.
    
    

>    		Incidentally, Christians are not supposed to gossip,
>    	libel, slander, spread false and evil reports.

That's what arbiters are for: to determine whether it is slander (libel)
or the truth.  Christians are to proclaim the truth.

    This note is now temporarily writelocked.
    
    Nancy
    co-mod CHRISTIAN

    Anyone catch the latest wave?  It's called "Laughing in the Spirit." 
    It was started by a guy from South Africa who has a church back east. 
    He's been in "Charisma" magazine a lot lately.  
    
    Speaking of which, the editor of "Charisma" magazine has come out with
    a "Christianity in Crisis" type book, but presents it in a much more 
    loving manner.  I hear it's a great book!
    
    Mike

    I got to witness the new "laughing in the Spirit" movement the other
    day on the Richard Roberts' show.  It was so obviously contrived that I
    actually felt sorry for them.
    
    Mike

  I've noticed the "laughing in the spirit" a couple of times..can't quite
 understand what's going on, but it sure looked like confusion to me.  I can't
 help but wonder what folks who just happen across it on the TV will think,
 particularly those who aren't saved.



Jim

    
    I caught a moment of this myself.  Richard Roberts - reminds me of a
    drunk Pat Boone somehow.
    
    jeff

 I used to see similar activity by folks partaking of Nitrous Oxide at
concerts I used to attend.




Jim

    We have a friend in England whose church has experienced this,
    and he also has experienced it personally.  I do not understand
    it and am not ready to endorse it, but this person is a sincere
    believer who has a strong walk with the Lord and a deep prayer
    life .....................

    Leslie

    Why do those who have not experienced this have the most to say?
    
    In all fairness though being involved with something or looking in from
    the outside would be two different things. I have been to churches
    where this laughing has occured and have no problem with it but if I
    had to sit back and watch someone do it on TV they would look like fools
    to me.
    
    I am going to start a new topic "the Laughing Revival of 1994" and
    maybe we can diccuss this topic further there.
    
    Orval 

I've never been somewhere where "laughing in the spirit" was any kind of
planned event, like people expected it to happen.

I have been places where people have been so caught up in the joy of the
spirit that it made them laugh for joy, and it was a beautiful thing.

As with anything, I think we can be led into laughter by the spirit, and I
think we can also go there ourselves and CALL it spirit-led.

Paul

>    Why do those who have not experienced this have the most to say?

Orval,

As with Leslie, I do not judge those who do, but on the same token, 
one doesn't always have to experience something to pass correct judgment.

>    I would suggest everyone just let God do what he wants to and let
>    everyone be as they are.

Bob,

  Good advice.

  What does God want to do?  Lots of things.... and one thing.  To name
  and few:

  o study the scriptures to know what God wants
  o do justice
  o love mercy
  o walk humbly
  o obey His commandments
  o love one another
  o forgive one another
  o seek after God and His kingdom

  The one thing: Love God with everything, which encompasses all that we do.

    I finally got a copy of the "Christianity in Crisis" tapes with the
    actual quotations from faith-cult speakers.  It's amazing people
    support this stuff!
    
    Mike

    Im sorry. I dont seem to understand something. How can a man such as
    copeland,hagin and hinn gain so much popularity and respect if they
    didnt have some sort of annointing or something. Im confused.
    Could you enlighten me please my brother and sister

 This is a topic that is likely to generate a lot of discussion, much of which
 we've gone over before, and which created significant controversy and negative
 feelings.

 I might suggest picking up a copy of "Christianity in Crisis" by Hank Honegraff
 and I highly recommend the book on tape version, which includes actual quotes
 from Misters Copeland, Hinn, et al.


 Note, I'm not attempting to stop any discussion, merely suggesting a source
 or information.



 Jim

    Thanks Jim.  Im just confused by some of the people I see on tbn. You
    would figure they would have at least a screening process or something.
    

 It would be worth your while to pick up the book on tape of Christianity
 in Crisis.  TBN is rather prominent therein.





 Jim

    
    Thank Jim. Have a good weekend guys. God bless.

    <Im sorry. I dont seem to understand something. How can a man such as
    <    copeland,hagin and hinn gain so much popularity and respect if they
    <    didnt have some sort of annointing or something. Im confused.
    <    Could you enlighten me please my brother and sister
    
    Jesus said that the world would hate us because of Him - I would
    suggest that using human popularity as a guage to assess our standing
    with God could be dangerous. In the O.T. a lot of Gods people liked to
    listen to the false prophets who prophesied only good things coming for
    Gods people. Those who stood up for the truth generally brought bad
    news and were hated for it. I'm not saying that the men mentioned above
    are false prophets, but I am justtrying to make the point that being
    popular with the people isn't necessarily the right measure to use for
    anointing.
    
    I hope this helps
    
    Love
    Ben

    
    Thanks this ben. This kinda clears up some of the confusion. I guess I
    will just have to follow the leading of the holy spirit in decerning
    the best source to listen to.  Thanks very much ben
    God Bless
    
    Thomas

Re Note 157.159 (CSC32::DAWSON)

>    Im sorry. I dont seem to understand something. How can a man such as
>    copeland,hagin and hinn gain so much popularity and respect if they
>    didnt have some sort of annointing or something. Im confused.
>    Could you enlighten me please my brother and sister
    
    As Ben mentioned in .164, popularity is not an indicator of "anointing"
    (Godliness, whatever). I am not making a comment on any individuals in
    particular (again, I haven't heard/read Copeland, Hagin, or Hinn), but
    I would remind you that Christianity seems to be the lot of only a
    minority of us. Matthew 7:13 says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide
    is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there
    are many who go in by it." Then in Matthew 22:14 we read that "many are
    called, but few are chosen."
    
    So it's almost the safer bet to assume that if a movement is highly
    popular, that it's *not* of God. I'm sure we could all think of
    examples of religions that have more followers than does Christianity
    but that are not Biblical. On the other hand Billy Graham has been
    extremely popular, and I'd say that he's about as Christian as someone
    can be.
    
    Bottom line: popularity is not a good indicator of Godly anointing.
    Best to check the movement against the Scriptures to see if they
    square.
    
    	BD�

    Thanks That is something that I have been doing. I have been taught
    that
    people will always give you the (word of the Lord) but if its not
    scriptural then its from man not the spirit. Thanks for the advice I
    really appreciate it. 

>    Im sorry. I dont seem to understand something. How can a man such as
>    copeland,hagin and hinn gain so much popularity and respect if they
>    didnt have some sort of annointing or something. Im confused.
>    Could you enlighten me please my brother and sister
    
    I think it is a combination of a few things.  The major one is that
    there aren't enough Bereans in the church today (Acts 17:11).  If you
    don't know the Bible, you are susceptible to all sorts of false
    teaching.  The other is human tendency toward "get rich quick" schemes.
    
    Mike

    Re: Anointing
    
    Another thing to be careful is the source of the anointing.  For
    instance, Benny Hinn says he often attends the gravesites of Kathryn
    Kulhmann and Aimee Semple-McPherson because the anointing is still so
    strong at their tombs.  Sounds pretty sick to me.
    
    Re: TBN
    
    Better known as Christian Fiction TV.  There's an awful lot of
    questionable characters on this network.  The book tape version of
    "Christianity in Crisis" has some examples of Paul Crouch using some
    very off-color language.  If you ever have the opportunity to work the
    phones there at their headquarters, it's not unusual to hear the
    Crouchs to have fits of profanity off camera.
    
    They also support UPC (United Pentecostal Church) which is a cult that 
    denies the doctrine of the Trinity.  Pretty ironic from a network named 
    after the Trinity.
    
    Mike

    RE: .159
    
    >Im sorry. I dont seem to understand something. How can a man such as
    >copeland,hagin and hinn gain so much popularity and respect if they
    >didnt have some sort of annointing or something. Im confused.
    >Could you enlighten me please my brother and sister
    
    This verse instantly popped into my mind when you asked this:
    
    2 Timothy 4:3-4
    
    "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine.
    Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a
    great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.  
    They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths."
    
    Jilla

    .170
    
    Mine too! :-)  I immediately thought of the same verse.  
    
    Glad *you* posted it though.
    
    

    Thanks so much guys. Im glad I have some brothers and sister I can 
    rely on. 
    
    God Bless,
    Thomas

    re:  II Timothy 4 (itching ears)
    
    Im' kinda rusty here, but wasn't it Jeremiah who kept saying "You're
    gonna get it, lessen you repent", but the King hired a whole slew of
    his own "prophets" to say what the people's itching ears wanted to hear
    ("Not to worry - God loves us.  He will allow no harm to come to His
    people, nor to Jeruselem.") and drowned out Jeremiah's warnings...