Conference yukon::christian_v7

 Not to discourage discussion here, there was a discussion of this in Chritian
 V6 (ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V6) topic 170.




 Jim

The bible is full of places where people, in the presence of God or His 
messengers, experience something very like "resting" in the Spirit (a much nicer
word than "slain." :-)  You mentioned Paul's Damascus road experience and the
soldiers in the Garden.  Two others off the top of my head:

In Revelation, when John turned and saw the risen Christ:  "When I saw him, I
fell at his feet as though dead." (Rev 1:17a)

Daniel, in the presence of the Angel Gabriel:  "So he came near where I stood;
and when he came, I was frightened and fell upon my face.  But he said to me,
'Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of the end.'  As he
was speaking to me, I fell into a deep sleep with my face to the ground..."

Dan 8:17-18a

There doesn't seem to be much mention of it in the New Testament though, in
terms of the early experiences of the apostles and the believers.

Paul

    The only New Testament example is Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5.

    .3
    
    Heh heh Mike... and what was their fate????? heh, heh.
    
    Nancy

    Mike,
    
    Although I am no supporter of the concept of "slaying in the Spirit", I
    don't think Ananias and Sapphira are quite the examples its proponents
    point to. :-)
    
    Mark L.

    Yeah I'd be careful about praying for that to happen to me.

There are experiences that Christians, in whom I have had confidence of their
walk with God, have expressed that are strange and different to me.  Before
I pronounce it unscriptural, I want to be sure it is counterscriptural to
peg it as something to be avoided.  I do not condone seeking after such 
things (is the use of tongues a gift to seeK, when it is a lesser gift, etc).
But (contrary to some people's opinion), we need to be careful in our
judgment and identify (a) where there is precedence (b) where there is purpose
(c) where there is need and (d) where God gets the glory.

If it is counterscriptural - toss it.  If it is merely extra-scriptural,
then reserve judgment.  

MM

I agree with Mark.  God is not restricted from doing anything not recorded in
Scripture.  I'd be wary of passing judgment on a supernatural manifestation
only because it has no precedence in Scripture, without also examining its
fruits and Who it points to (or does not).

Previous examples notwithstanding, I really do not see any clear examples in
Scripture of "resting in the Spirit."  Resting in the Spirit has to do with
basically being so overpowered by God that you collapse in weakness and some-
times remain unconscious or barely conscious for a short period of time. The
examples of Paul and John (in Revelation) don't really fit this.  (Neither, for
that matter, does the case of Ananias and Sapphira.)

However, I believe God has done a number of miraculous things with no precedence
in Scripture and I do not hold him bound to Scripture.

Now, whether this experience should be sought and encouraged is another matter.
Personally I find the possibility for danger very great if folks attempt to
seek this experience, especially with the wrong motives.  (This is in contrast
to not seeking the experience, but receiving it by the grace of God.)

The first danger is psychological delusion.  It's relatively simple to get 
yourself all worked up so that you believe when someone prays over you, you'll
fall over, especially when you see others "resting in the Spirit."  The bad
thing is, in this aspect it's like a virus: one person getting all worked up
and falling due to psychological rather than spiritual means causes other
people to get more worked up and more likely to be psychologically affected.
Then there's the effect where even if you don't get worked up psychologically,
you want the experience, so when you feel even the slightest weakness or "sign"
that it's happening, you think "this is it!" and obligingly permit yourself to
fall into the hands of the catcher, only to realize later that nothing really
happened, you just were fooling yourself.

The second danger is demonic delusion.  When we begin to desire the gifts for
the sake of the gifts, or for other wrong motives instead of seeking the Lord,
we open ourselves up to demonic delusion.  Of course this is far less common
I believe than the first case, but it's possible.  This is especially possible
if you get involved in a spiritually false group; a charismatic group that
looks Christian but is really aberrant and Satanically deceived, whether or not
the participants know it.  (You're heard of stories of people speaking in
tongues, when a bystander hears and recognizes their language as praising God
in some bizarre, unusual tongue?  I've also heard stories of certain charis-
matic groups believing themselves to be speaking by the Holy Spirit in tongues,
yet a bystander hears and recognizes the language as blaspheming God in some
bizarre, unusual tongue.  Apparently this is often associated with groups who
believe you must speak in tongues to be saved, possibly the United
Pentecostals.) In any case, Satan is adept at deception, and can even deceive
Christians.  And don't let my example permit you to think that satan can only
deceive in aberrant groups: he can deceive individuals in orthodox groups as
well.

My opinion is: Does the Spirit truly come upon people in such power that they
lose strength and possibly consciousness? Yes, he can and has done so, and this
is good. Can people however be deceived? Yes. Should people seek this experience 
specifically? No, I would avoid this attitude.  Go ahead and seek prayer, or 
anointing or whatever, but desire the fruits of the Spirit, faith, hope, love, 
self-control, humility, repentance, etc. from that anointing, not impressive, 
showy spiritual gifts that will feed your pride if you get them. He who humbles 
himself will be exalted, he who exalts himself will be humbled. Seek the right 
things, and the gifts will come, if God desires you to have them.  Seek the 
wrong things, and you could be deceived.

Eric

I should add that I think proponents and opponents of the phenomena often make
what I guess I would call the error of going overboard.

The author of "Charismatic Chaos," along with certain fundamentalist Baptist
groups (among others) make the error of saying, well, I have heard a few cases
of serious abuse and spiritual deception, therefore anyone who speaks in
tongues or gets slain the "spirit" is being deceived by Satan and we must shun
those experiences at all costs.  Proponents say, I have been really blessed by
these experiences, and see no abuse, therefore they are Godly and supernatural
and to be sought, encouraged, and emphasized.

Neither view takes into account the fact that there is legitimate use and
illegitimate abuse of these things, as there is of many things.  It's wrong to
judge all Pentecostals and charismatics as Satanically deceived based on a few
isolated cases, yet it is also wrong to assume that just because your
experiences have been with orthodox, healthy groups that all such groups are
orthodox and healthy.

The opponents conclude that being slain in the Spirit is always Satanic and
must be avoided.  They paint with a wide heretical brush anyone associated with
this phenomena, start witch hunting and wreak havoc in the Christian community.

By similar logic I could conclude the following: David Koresh believed that the
Bible was inspired and infallible and encouraged his followers to study it,
believe it, and apply it.  David Koresh was a cultist who thought he was Jesus
Christ and ended up destroying his cult.  Therefore the idea that the Bible is
inspired and infallible, and should be read, believed, and applied, is Satanic
and must be avoided at all costs, because it produces the delusion that you
are Jesus Christ and causes churches to destroy themselves in magnificent
infernos.

The question is not whether it is right or wrong, of the Holy Spirit or of the
unholy one, but is it producing Godly fruit in specific situations.

 Therefore
don't look for an answer to, "Is being Slain in the Spirit biblical or 
unbiblical?", but rather, is it being used in a Godly or ungodly way?

Eric

	Thank you Mark, Paul, and Eric for your refreshingly objective
	replies to this topic!

	Karen

>I agree with Mark.  God is not restricted from doing anything not recorded in
>Scripture.  I'd be wary of passing judgment on a supernatural manifestation
>only because it has no precedence in Scripture, without also examining its
>fruits and Who it points to (or does not).

    But why?  On the one hand we say, "The Bible contains all that we need
    to know and God has manifested himself in His Son, Jesus."  And then we
    state to validate our emotional side by stating if this feels like God
    and good things happen, it must be God?
    
    Isn't that what the Antichrist does, simulate God's true attributes
    for the first part of the tribulation and then wreaks havoc on the
    second part showing his true nature.  
    
    Great deceptive tool.  Let's get our Christians saying extraBiblical
    experiences are of God, because He's omniscient.  I'm not questioning
    the sincerity or salvation of folks who have these experiences.  But I
    am questioning the author of those experiences, regardless of so-called
    fruit.
    
    A true story:  When I was very hurt and emotionally destitute during
    the extrememe abusive years with ex-husband, my faith had come into
    question.  Some "friends" at work told me about a woman Pastor who had
    the gifts of knowledge.  It turned out to be a New Age pastor.  
    
    We sat down, she turned on her recorder and began to tell me of my
    abusive past [neither she nor the friends knew of it], she also said
    that she had a  message from my dead father.  [they also didn't know my
    father was dead].  Then she began to tell me what my purpose on this
    earth was.  She said some pretty ego boosting things and she said some
    things that hurt.  
    
    Somehow in the middle of this session [and its on tape], I stated these
    things and asked a question.  I said, "Since I accepted Christ as
    Savior, I've been taught and understand the Bible to say that these
    kinds of things are of Satan and evil.  It's very hard for me to listen
    to what you are saying, knowing the truth that has been spoken when you
    don't even know me, and believe that your counsel is of God." [remember
    she called herself Pastor].  Her response was, "Do you really *feel*
    anything evil here?  You need to ask yourself the question, if it
    doesn't feel evil, then its good and only goodness comes from God.  You
    have the power to discern good from evil don't you?"
    
    And honestly, everything she said felt good, even the painful parts and
    her ability to know things that she had no ability to know other then
    through discernment caught my attention.  
    
    I believe we accept too easily extraBiblical experiences into a position
    that it *could* be of God.  The mere fact that its *experience* and
    not validated by scripture is enough for me to stay away from it.
    
    Also, I find it very interesting that in ACTS Chapter 19, when the sons
    of Sceva came to man to cast out an evil spirit [for monetary gain] in
    the name of Christ, the spirit replied, "I know of Jesus and I know of
    Paul, but you I do not know."
    
    The power behind that statement goes beyond the words I can muster up
    to  reflect what it did in my heart.  The evil spirits know us.
    
    Nancy

>    I believe we accept too easily extraBiblical experiences into a position
>    that it *could* be of God.  The mere fact that its *experience* and
>    not validated by scripture is enough for me to stay away from it.
    
    This part really caught my eye, and I'd like to take it one step
    further.  I believe that it is too easy to get taken up with
    *experience*, even when it *is* something which can be validated by
    scripture.  If "the great deceiver" can get us more interested in some
    experience or feeling, he has diverted us from what the Lord's real
    desire for us is:  "Follow Me".  Not a feeling, not an experience, but
    knowing and becoming more like Him.  "As ye have therefore received
    Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him" (Col 2:6).  The walk in the
    Lord Jesus is a walk by faith (not by sight).  This is not to say that
    experiences and feelings will not be part of the Christian life.  But
    we must never let experiences and feelings become the focus of our
    lives.
    
    Mark L.

    How do you respond to the presence of God?  How do you as an individual
    respond?  Do you cry, smile, laugh, raise your hands, bow your head,
    kneel before Him?  Are there dictates in the Bible that require you to
    respond in a certain way?  We as humans respond emotionally, at times,
    to the moving of the Holy Spirit.  Again, each person responds
    differently to the power of God. 
    
    Granted, there are instances in every denomination and faith where
    emotions and human error come into play.  If we follow the Bible as the
    inerrant Word of God, perhaps 1 Thesselonians 5:19 - 22 would provide
    guidance.  "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies
    with contempt. Test everything.  Hold on to the good.  Avoid every kind
    of evil."  NIV
    
    I also suggest reading Romans Chapter 14 and 15.  
    
    Love in Christ,
    Fran

>    How do you respond to the presence of God?  How do you as an individual
>    respond?  Do you cry, smile, laugh, raise your hands, bow your head,
>    kneel before Him?  Are there dictates in the Bible that require you to
>    respond in a certain way?  We as humans respond emotionally, at times,
>    to the moving of the Holy Spirit.  Again, each person responds
>    differently to the power of God. 
 
    Fran, I don't believe that anyone is stating [at least I know it
    weren't me] that we, as Christians, should be void of emotion. 
    Remember, above all the heart is deceitfully wicked.  I wouldn't trust
    my emotions or experiences as being of God, if they are not backed by
    God's Word.  That is all I was saying.
    
    
    >Granted, there are instances in every denomination and faith where
    >emotions and human error come into play.  If we follow the Bible as the
    >inerrant Word of God, perhaps 1 Thesselonians 5:19 - 22 would provide
    >guidance.  "Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies
    >with contempt. Test everything.  Hold on to the good.  Avoid every kind
    >of evil."  NIV
    
    I read I Thessalonians 5:19 - 22 and find nothing contradictory with my
    position.  They are great scriptures and experiences based on scripture
    are GREAT.  However, when the Bible says "Quench not the Spirit", what
    does that really mean.  Quench means to put out or extinguish. I can
    understand why someone might feel that to not agree with the slaying of
    the Spirit to be quenching.
    
    I truly don't believe that this is true.  When the Spirit of God moves
    on you, it is done decently and in order as scripture dicstates.  While
    in Acts the tongues of fire rained upon the saints of God, which is
    rather dramatic, the end result was decency and order, people were
    hearing the Gospel in their own language!  AMEN!  Now that kind of
    Spirit is valid and true!  No problemo here.  But even then they
    weren't slain.
    
    >I also suggest reading Romans Chapter 14 and 15.  
    
    I read them, just now.  Fran, dear Sis, you are so precious and I value
    your presence so much.  But I honestly don't see how it applies. 
    Perhaps if you feel led you may write me offline to express what you
    mean by those chapters.  
    
    Nancy

 I have been in a couple of congregations where experiential sort of things
 divided and nearly destroyed both, casting families against families, etc.  I
 lost several good friends as a result.

 While I am not going to put anything outside of the power of God, nor am I
 going to question the genuineness of the people involved, I have seen 
 situations where individuals who have experienced this phenomena, and others,
 have taken a "I'm more spiritual than you because I've had this experience"
 attitude.

 PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT SAYING ANYONE IN THIS CONFERENCE HAS TAKEN SUCH A STAND.

 I think we have to question anything that would bring about such an attitude.

 I also sometimes wonder what an unsaved person attending a service where this
 is happening would think, should he/she witness this phenomena?






 Jim

    While the emotional side of our human lives can be an area where Satan 
    can buffet, it can also be a place of overwhelming joy, peace, ecstasy, 
    humility, conviction, in reaction to the presence of God.  
    
    The term "slain in the Spirit", while it may be man's words, could very
    well be one specific individual's description of their experience to
    an overwhelming worshipful response to the power of the Holy Spirit.   
    Again, it's a personal matter of how each one of us, as individuals    
    receive our own special blessings.  We are all different people, we    
    experience God in different ways, thanks be to God!
    
    There are areas that each of us can let our own human energies and
    failings come into play all while trying to be vessels of the Holy
    Spirit.  My knowledge and experience of God is that those who truly
    seek Him will find Him.  He will forgive their failings, he will uplift
    their hearts and He will relate to them in a personal, one on
    one relationship, that will edify their lives.
    
    Love in Jesus,
    Fran 

    Okay... I can understand the "Slain in the Spirit" may have different
    connotations.
    
    The connotation I was referring to was the Maurio Murillo [sp] kind. 
    Where he touches you and you just shiver and shake and fall down.
    
    When Jesus ascended into heaven and he left the Comforter.  The
    apostles whom walked closest to the Lord, did not experience this.  Not
    one out of 12. You'd think that out of 12 people that the diversity of
    personalities could have brought forth this manifestation of the
    outpour of the Holy Spirit had God intended for it to be so.
    
    What you have written in your previous note, Fran, is excellent and I
    agree with you 100%.
    
    Nancy 
    

    To be clear, Nancy, not one of the 12 "was recorded" to have experienced
    this. But I am glad you are coming to a better definition of terms.  
    
    All of us should look to define our terms before shooting from the hip.
    
    Again, if it is contrascriptural - throw it out!
    
    If it is extra-scriptural - test it!
    
    (If it is scriptural - why are you asking? (<-- reference to those who
    wonder what God's will for their lives is).)

    Fran,
    
    	I appreciate what you  have written and your efforts in trying to
    explain the terms and verbage used. I believe that you are right on
    target and it is uplifting and encouraging to me.
    
    Mark,
    
    	You're absolutely right, Let's keep to our simple faith, as that of
    a child so we can fully obtain the many blessings of God.
    
    Dan
    

    I was part of the Charismatic movement back in the 70's. I've seen people
    slain in the spirit and people praying in tongues. I've seen both the legit
    manifestations of the Holy Spirit and the bazaar. Eric is correct in
    that it gets out of hand. I fact some  prayer group leaders were
    getting angry with their prayer group members because there was no tongues
    being spoken.

    The bottom line to this is that without true humility, the Holy Spirit
    will not manifest himself. The Holy Spirit is not going to empower a
    person's ego with gifts that can only feed pride. 

    Prayer from the heart is a weapon against such deception. Go to your
    cell and pray in solitude where only God the Father, who knows all your
    secrets will hear your prayers.

    Lord Jesus Christ Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner.

    Jim

	Thank you, Fran!  That was beautifully said!

	I've noticed that almost every reply that mentions tongues,
	gifts, or being slain in the spirit appears to say that these
	things are always sought after, rather than simply received and
	utilized to the Glory of God.

	As mentioned, there are clearly abuses of not only these gifts,
	but many others in the church today.  However, there are also
	those people (who I'd like to think outnumber the abusers) who
	receive the gifts the Lord presents to them and uses them to
	glorify God.

	God gave us the gift of salvation, but we had to accept it.

	I have accepted the gift of tongues from the Lord.  I did not
	accept the gift in an attempt to set myself higher than another,
	or build up myself up in the natural.  It was more a matter of 
	"here is a gift, will you take it ?".  I have, and it edifies me.

	I realize this isn't a tongues discussion (though it may sound
	like tongues to some :-) ), but I did see that vein throughout
	the replies here and felt I had to respond.

	Karen

Hi,
I have followed this note so far and would like to enter a personal
experience in this area.

Several years ago I started attending an Assembly of God church.
I was born again and obviously was aware of G_d and Jesus but not
so aware of the Holy Spirit and his role. 

I attended a service were a man stood up and spoke in tongues which
to me was very upsetting at the time.  The pastor let it pass and talked to 
those who where concerned and let us know that in this particular case it
was out of order in that service.

Many services after that on one particular evening we had a service as 
usual and there was an alter call for those who felt they wanted a special 
touch from G_d or wanted to get right with G_d (back on track,repent).  So
I went forward.  The pastor was praying and there was the laying on 
of hands.  The pastor layed hands on me and I was filled with the Spirit
as described in this note where I could not stand.  Yes I did fall back
and was put to the floor.  This experience was genuine.  I can say that this
was from the Spirit of God, and to me it was truly a blessing. I was conscious
but could move in the Spirit presence.  Yes this experience did involve 
feelings how could it not be since I could not stand.  

I have not had this experience since, nor do I necessarily seek it out.
If the Sprit chose to fill me in that way again, I would gladly accept.
I can not necessarily explain what happened, but there are a lot of things
that G_d does and is about that we won't understand while here on this
earth.  Perhaps this event for me was G_d's way to make me aware of the
Holy Spirit so that I would study and be open to learn that the Spirit
was more than just a power and is actually G_d and is here for believers.

I hope this does not offend because this is not my intention.  If I have
I apologize.  I personally do not believe that this type of filling will
happen for every one, nor that there should be a burden put on a fellow
brother and sister that this needs to happen.  I believe that this is
how the Spirit chose to work on me that particular day.
    
    
                                           LIC
                                        J. Glenn
    

    Sorry folks,
    
    I don't mean to alienate anyone in this conference as result of my
    belief, though I hear an incredible amount of emotion in this note.  
    
    I will take a stand on this and pray that you'll receive me as I
    believe without rejection of me personally, even if you reject my
    belief.
    
    I believe that when step outside of scripture to someething that
    doesn't necessarily contradict, but cannot be validated you are on
    dangerous territory.
    
    Mark, semantics... *not recorded*, okay.... but if God had wanted that
    to be an example of manifestation, why wouldn't it have been recorded. 
    It was recorded in the old Testament when God himself was manifest in
    someone's presence.  But not once in the new testament was it
    manifested in the apostles as such.  However, everytime God's presence
    was manifested in God or in Jesus, I find this experience to be true.
    
    Look at Revelations 1, when John saw the presence of Jesus he fell as
    dead.
    
    So folks if you believe that what you experienced was of God, then I'd
    say it wasn't the Holy Spirit, but of God or Christ himself which
    manifested himself.
    
    Sound far-fetched and wild?  Maybe.  But it's the only explanation
    validated by scripture that I have found.  Please if you know of
    scripture then I'd appreciate the gander.
    
    Nancy

In many, many areas of our Christian walk, we are called to balance between two
opposite poles, neither of which is what God wants for us.  I think this is an 
area that is especially difficult for us to balance.  For many years, I was one
of the people who was completely turned off by any emotional or demonstrational
experience with the Lord.  And I still recognize many potential abuses in the
emotional response to the Lord.  But I've come to see that emotion is *part* of
loving the Lord.

There was an excellent sermon on this during a revival conference at our church
this spring.  The pastor used the story of Mary pouring ointment on Jesus' feet
and wiping them with her hair as the text.  This was an extravagant, emotional
gesture on her part - a *display* of the tremendous love she had for Jesus.  And
he accepted that display, and rebuked those who would belittle it.  Think of
the emotion of love as experienced on a human plane.  We can point to many
examples of bad things that have occurred as a result of emotional infatuation.
Yet none but the cynics among us would use those to cast a dispersion upon love
itself, or upon the emotional response and resultant extravagance of correctly
channeled love.

The Lord gives us experiences of the sense of His presence in the form of
manifestational gifts.  Being "slain in the spirit" is only one of many ways in
which people sense the presence of the Lord.  A short and incomplete list would
include tongues, prophecies, trembling, words of knowledge, healings, etc. 
*Any* experiential manifestation can be viewed the same way as resting in the 
spirit.  It can have the same positive effects, and it can be abused by us in
the same way.

After any experiential event with the Lord, we feel changed, and we feel closer 
to the Lord.  Out of that "feeling" of closeness, we may respond in many 
different ways.  The best response is to be grateful for that glimpse of light
through the dark glass of this life, and to continue, perhaps with greater
fervor, to follow the Lord.  An easy response that is not good is to then look
for that same feeling at other times.  We recognize that we felt closer to the
Lord after the experience, and so this starts as a sincere desire to experience
it again and move even closer to Him.  But we can begin to feel that the Lord is
not there or not listening if we do not have the same "sense" of His presence.  
We can turn our prayer and worship time into a focus on trying to feel that
experience again rather than on loving the Lord for who He is.  Or if we have
never had such an experience but have seen it in others, we can again turn our
worship time into a time of seeking such an experience.  This is not the right
attitude of the heart.

Worse yet, we can note that we felt closer to God after the experience and then
come to the conclusion that people who have not had an experience like it are
not as close to God as we are.

I know that I've had to struggle with this.  I've never rested in the Spirit,
nor have I been given the gift of tongues.  But I have manifestly felt the
presense of the Lord, and it has shown itself in a sense of power and presence,
and a trembling.  This first occurred before I had any idea such things 
happened, so I know that I didn't experience this myself through looking for it.
I have grown tremendously through these experiences, yet at the same time I have
struggled with them.  I have tended to look for them as confirmation of the
Spirit's presence, and I've had to consciously reject that seeking, and let my
focus be on the Lord Himself, and not on any personal experiential sense of His
presense.  Praise the Lord that to this point I have not been looking down at
anyone as less spiritual because of a lack of such experiences, at least not at
a level I've been able to recognize.  I continue to pray that the Lord uphold me
and purge my prideful ways.

The balance is perilous.  It certainly was easier when I was just able to deny
any experiential sensing of the Lord, and didn't have to worry about balance.
And the consequences of falling on the other side of the balance are dire:
pridefullness and a forced emotionalism that shuts out the Lord just as surely
as a denial if any sense of His presense.  Yet we are called not to quench the 
fire of the Spirit.  I think it is a balance we should try to reach.

Paul

    Paul,
    
    It's funny as I was reading your note, I could have basically written
    the same thing.  You see, I have felt the filling of the Holy Spirit
    and experienced His strength and wisdom in times of my weakness and
    failings.
    
    I recall my niece asking questions, and being consumed by the fire of
    the Spirit as scripture poured forth, that I didn't know!!! :-)  I've
    not spoken in tongues, but am not against tongues.  And pray if God
    wills it that I may someday.  Not for my glory, but for His.
    I pray for His presence daily.  And there are times when
    I sense the Spirit's filling, but it's not overpowering emotion, it's 
    tender, peaceful and comforting, like stepping into a warm bath.  
    Sorry, if this sounds funny.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    
    
    

As far as any representation I have come across indicates, being 'slain in
the Spirit' is something which happens to us; not something we do.  And 
generally, for any individual, as a one-off occurrence.  As such, it's only 
the source which is in question.

This is reported to be something that has happened to some people who are
asking God to work in their lives.  Luke 11:9-13 comes into force then - He
isn't going to either palm us off with something superficial, nor is He
going to loosen His grip and let the enemy slip in false goods.  However,
whatever happens in these cases is of His volition, and not of the
subjects.  We cannot 'do it' ourselves.  We are not told to seek it or to
avoid it. However, we *are* told to seek the LORD.  That is what we should
be focussing on, and if the way He works within us is unusual for some
reason, that's up to Him, not us.  It's nothing to boast of or to be
ashamed of.  It's just a part of our relationship with Him growing. 

If there is a real, there is likely to be a a counterfeit.  Not when we're 
asking the LORD for His work in us, but when someone asks from another 
source, or tries to imitate something for their own ends.  Here, we are I 
believe more interested in seeking wehather this is genuine, in terms of 
deciding whether it *ever* happens as from the LORD.

If it happens to someone else, who is speaking of it, we test it by its 
fruits.  If they make it a point of bragging, then their motivation, target 
in asking, and hence, total experience, is suspect.  I would think that the
person who is truly touched by the LORD would not want to speak of it.
Remember Paul's embarrassment in 2 Corinthians 11-12 (esp 12:2-6, which is
taken as an indirect way of reeferring to his own experience).

Where someone in a ministry position speaks of such a thing, it should be 
to reassure, rather than to seek any sort of publicity.  God is Sovereign 
to act as He knows best....

The one instance where this happened before Jesus was when He used the Name
of God to identfy Himself in John 18:6.  A very large number of Roman
troops (I've heard it calculated, but would have to look it up) 'drew back
and fell to the ground'.  Toughies, who wouldn't be impressed by hearing
Him apply the Jewish identity of God to Himself. 

Note that this was only when He was about to be apprehended by force for 
trial and execution, and that the 'demonstration' was a revelation of Who 
He was, for the sake of those who were about to commit deicide. 

Generally Jesus purposely avoided any direct claim or statement of Who He 
was; the revelation had to be by heart conviction; not by purely cerebral 
logic.  Salvation is by faith, not works.



								Andrew

    Dear Christian Friends,
    
    Thank you for your thoughtful responses (even .3!). What you have said
    will help me greatly if or when I see or experience the Spirit in this
    manner. Remembering that I have never seen it happen (except perhaps in
    the odd TV documentary) and have only heard it described, "Resting in
    the Spirit" (a nicer term) had been imagined by me as a type of production
    line where people fall over on queue. Obviously from some of your
    comments such need not be the case. However the various scriptual
    references mentioned suggest to me direct involvement by God, His Spirit or
    Jesus rather than a human intermediary as happens in the modern experience. 
    
    I will not seek such an experience for myself, but neither will I judge 
    this behavior in others. 
    
    Yours for the Lord,
    
    Erwin

	The are two top-level experiences of the Spirit. The first is the
intrinsic or inner experience of the Spirit. All beleivers experience this
when they receive the Lord. It is like drinking the Spirit into your spirit 
or breathing HIm in. (John 20:22) He who is joined to the Lord is one Sspirit. 
The second type of experience is the extrinsic or the outpoured Spirit as 
occurred in Act 2 in which a believer receives the Spirit as a garment. 
	The intrinsic experience is for our daily living, that we may know the 
Lord in the big and little things in our life and they we may choose Him in all
those matters. By this inner Spirit we able to grow into the Lord and reach 
maturity in the Christian life.
	The extrinsic experience of the Spirit is for ministry, that is, the
preaching of the gospel, witnessing to others, etc. and is given that we
may have the impact. Acts shows many examples of the need for the extrinsic
aspect of the Spirit for the ministry. We too should experience both.

	However, a problem arises when 1) the extrinsic experiences of the
Spirit are sought for ones own pleasure or 2) the extrinsic experiences are
not used for the ministry. Sincere yet unclear believers often fall into the
trap of seeking and treating the gifts like "toys". Or sometimes a preacher
or evangelist will use the gifts to build up their own ministry, appealing to
the superstitious side of humanity. These are misusing, misdirecting, and
misapplying the purpose of the gifts which is principally for the preaching
of the gospel to save sinners. This is not to say that the gifts aren't 
manifested at other times and others places. But some may say "But I experienced
such and such and it drew me closer to God, etc.". Good, Thank God for His
drawing you and go on. Do not expect others to follow your experience and do
not establish a practice for others to conform to. My experience has been that
those who practice such things get offended when you don't or won't practice
the same things (i.e. speaking in tongues). This indicates that they are
embracing a practice and not embracing the Lord Himself. The Lord will often
move in a certain way for a while, then He moves on. If you insist on holding
on to a way, you will miss the Lord, because He will have already moved on.


Regards,
Ace

    Although I've never been comletely laid out by the Spirit, I have been
    almost unable to walk after one worship time, and another time was
    pinned to the chair for 45 minutes after the end of worship, so I know
    things happen!
    
    However, I would like to make two points.  First, I hold firmly to the
    principle that whatever happens, the basis of judgment (ie whether this
    is from God or not) has to be scripture.  I agree with most folk who have
    written in this topic, and agree that we need some caution in
    approaching the subject.
    
    Second, we must be clear that be slain in the Spirit is not a gift of
    the Spirit, therefore it is not to be sought after.  Paul tells us to
    seek after the gifts of the Spirit, especially those that build up the
    church (1 Cor 14:12).  But being slain in the Spirit is not in any of
    the lists of gifts in the NT.  The outstanding characteristic of the
    gifts is that they are all useful for something: if you are given a
    gift of healing, it is so you can bring God's healing to someone else;
    if you're given a gift of prophecy, it's so you can be a channel for
    God's word in a particular situation.  Whatever you get as a gift
    of the Spirit, it's so you can do God's will for someone or for the
    church.  
    
    It's easy to go to one of those meetings where people get "zapped" by
    the Spirit, and just sit worshipping and basking in the glow.  Worship
    - fine.  Bask - no, you should seek what it is you're being equipped to
    do.  Plenty of people do get a glow (or whatever other feeling), and
    there's nothing wrong with that; some people get knocked over - ditto. 
    But glowing or falling is no more central to the matter than is the
    steam that's given off when you boil an egg.  Being slain in the
    Spirit is a side-effect and nothing more.
    
    I've heard it said that the reason not everyone gets a glow or gets 
    knocked over is that God only gives such experiences to those who need
    them for encouragement - ie to those whose faith or experience of God
    are weak; those of rock-solid faith will hardly ever get such things,
    since God will give them the other things *they* need.  What does anyone
    think about that?
    
    Yours in Jesus' Name,		Richard.

�    I've heard it said that the reason not everyone gets a glow or gets 
�    knocked over is that God only gives such experiences to those who need
�    them for encouragement - ie to those whose faith or experience of God
�    are weak; those of rock-solid faith will hardly ever get such things,
�    since God will give them the other things *they* need.  What does anyone
�    think about that?

It can only be conjecture, but I tend to think of it that way to some 
extent.  I'd say, rather, that the step from where they were to where God 
is taking them is so great as to impact them more, physically, than is the 
norm.  It might imply deepseated past problems being dealt with (even in 
invisible areas, such as in active faith).

But as I said .... only conjecture!

							God bless
								Andrew

.29  good note.

 Yesterday before leaving for church I had the TV on (having watched
 my favorite Christian programming) and on came Oral Roberts show.  His
 son (forget his name) was discussing a service he conducted where 
 apparantly folks were being slain in the spirit and much of the audience
 erupted in spontaneous laughter. Not just chuckles, mind you, but actual
 guffawing and tear generating laughter.  They introduced a film clip
 of this service and sure enough Mr Roberts would walk up and tap
 the folks on the forehead and they would collapse into the arms of
 the person behind them and before long the bunch of them would be
 laughing hysterically, rolling on the ground and screaming!  

 Mr Roberts implied on several occasions that if this was not happening
 in our churches then we have lost the joy of Christ!


 I was left with a funny feeling about the whole thing.





 Jim

> I was left with a funny feeling about the whole thing.

Jim, this is outside of the realm of my experience and observation,
but I know of a person or two who speak of this experience.  While
I wonder if some have put on a show, I also wonder if some few have
had legitimate experiences.

When I hear of these experiences from people in whom I have confidence,
but have a funny feeling about the experience itself, I "ponder this
in my heart" and then go about my Christian business.

Mm

re.32 Jim

>I was left with a funny feeling about the whole thing.

	That funny feeling is more than just a feeling. Appalled probably
more closely describes my sense.

ace

    I don't believe the Lord has called us into unconciousness.  Who is
    such an experience glorifying...?  I had a fellow point his finger at
    me and proclaim (rather proudly) "I've been slain in the spirit 32 times!
    How many times have *you* been slain in the spirit?!"  (BTW, the poor
    man had a heart attack about a year later and died... early thirties)
    
    Don/

.35>

As Ace once wisely pointed out, there are some gifts (he was speaking 
about tongues at the time) that are lesser and as one matures, one 
seeks after the better things.  The man described in .35 who claimed
to have been slain 32 times may have needed such an experience.  I am 
not appalled by sincere people who claim this experience, Ace.  I am 
openly skeptical about showmanship of any form.  But I would hope that
we could reserve some judgments for the sake of those whose Christian
walk was weak enough to need such confirmation as to place their 
hands in his side before they will believe.  Thank the Lord for Thomas,
His disciple, and with whom He was patient, despite needing physical 
evidence to believe.  Blessed are those who have not seen (us) and yet
believe!

MM

 Please note that I did not intend (and hopefully didn't) to make
 judgements of any sort in .32



 Jim

    Hi Jim, and all,
    
    Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't believe it.  Let's take a look at
    how girls reacted  the Beetles and Elvis Presley, why they worked
    themselves right out of their conciousness...  
    
    When I see things like this, it really scares me.  I know there are
    many readers of CHRISTIAN who believe in these types of experiences,
    but I can't tiptoe around you so that I don't offend you with my
    beliefs either.
    
    I will say it again... this type of experience is EXTRAbiblical and is
    dangerous... preparing the world for the antichrist... sigh  [see my
    previous note in this string]
    
    Nancy

Not all things that are EXTRAbiblical are CONTRAbiblical.
I wouldn't dabble in it (seek it out myself) but neither will
I judge it as contra-scriptural, which some of these notes seem 
to imply.  

Are there any specific injunctions against experiencing such a thing?

Again, I have no stake in this argument.  I have not experienced it, nor
do I think I will ever need to.  I have seen good baptist people swoon
to the emotion they've built up, so that a nurse travels with the choir.
How is this much different?  I don't know.

I know people in pretty tough straits who claimed this experience at a
*needed* time of their lives, and not something that is procured like a
hit of heroine when someone wants a high.  ("Hey, man.  Want to get slain
in the Spirit?"  "Yeah, what a trip!")

Mark

	re.36

	Mark,

	Having once been of the Pentecostal Holiness persuasion I've 
encountered many such experiences. We as christians need to be somewhat 
general in our acceptance of all believers, as you say.

	However, if you saw the "show" and the laughter and the etc., you might
have felt funny or you may have been appalled at the whole flavor of the event.

I was appalled.

ace

 One of the things that bothered me greatly about this show was the fact
 that Mr. Roberts continually berated the church that this one woman attended
 because they didn't do the sort of thing that was occuring at this performance.
 


 I wonder how a non-believer would react should they be in attendance at this
 type of service?




 Jim

.40  Ace

You are correct.  I did not see the show.  And agains, I am openly 
skeptical of all showmanship.  I would likely have been appalled, myself.

I was drawing a distinction between the showmanship, the show, and
a [possible] bona fide experience that is not done for show.

Gracias, amigo.

	Jim,

	In my opinion, that's when the line is crossed (when a pastor
	claims that these things *must* be done in order to be a true
	Christian church).

	Karen

 The woman in .41 was a Nazarene, btw :-)






 Jim

> The woman in .41 was a Nazarene, btw :-)

Oh yeah!  Well, let me change my opinion, in that case!  (Not!)  ;-)

Oral Roberts creates his own commentary without my addition.

 :-)

    Ananias and Sapphira were slain by the Spirit.  

in the Bible who could not stand up in the power and presence of God would  not
be seen in a good light here. Having been slain in the Spirit a few times in 
my Christian walk, I personaly can attest to it's authenticity in my life.
I did not seek it out ,per say, I just went up for healing prayer and was slain
in the Spirit. I do not however agree that it is necessarry for anything in the 
Christian life. I do agree that most of the slaying in the Spirit that goes on 
is only done for the show. It is sad that we do that sort of thing, but we do 
it all the time. Remember when Crystals were a good thing? Now they are almost 
a dirty word.

Dave

    This has already gone around the mulberry bush a few times.
    
    You see, I really wish someone could show me how *SPIRITUAL*
    experiences not described in the Bible can be considered okay?  We're
    not talking automobiles... automobiles do not get you "in touch" with
    God... we are talking a SPIRITUAL experience that is OUTSIDE scripture. 
    I know it *feels* good... but *feels* good could also be soaking your
    feet in warm water.... 
    
    Nancy

� but *feels* good could also be soaking your feet in warm water.... 

And we know *that's* Biblical.  Or rather, soaking someone else's feet...    

							&rew

    Yes, Andrew... [sheesh]

	Nancy,

	If I'm in prayer, and the Holy Spirit moves me in a way not
	explicitly recorded in the Bible, are you saying that is *not*
	ok ?

	Example, if the presence of the Holy Spirit moves me to tears,
	are you saying that that's wrong unless I can show you in scripture
	where the Holy Spirit came upon a praying person and the person wept ?

	Karen

>	If I'm in prayer, and the Holy Spirit moves me in a way not
>	explicitly recorded in the Bible, are you saying that is *not*
>	ok ?

	It's questionable at least. 

We need spiritual experiences but they need to be tempered by God's truth. I
know from personal experience that too much experience and not enough truth
will lead to all sorts of odd and funny things. On the other hand, too much
truth and not enough experience is a dead condition to be in. The normal
christian life is balanced with a rich infusion of experience securely grounded
in Truth!

There are some safeguards for believers in the matter of "spiritual 
experiences"...

	1) Does the experience or it's principle have a basis in the Word?

	2) Does the experience relate to idolatry (use of graven images,
	   pictures, superstitions, etc.)? If so, drop it.

	3) Does the experience lead into fornication? If so, flee from it.

	4) Does the experience lead into division? If so, avoid it.

	5) What do other beleivers think about it? Not always a good indicator,
	but if no one feels good about it you've probably gone off the deep end!

If your experience is clearly defined in the Word then we can enjoy and share
it with boldness and peace. If your experience has a basis of principle in the 
truth and doesn't lead into idolatry, fornication, or division, it just *might* 
be an experience from the Lord. But then, what if anything that we might do 
about it is altogether another matter. Sometimes it's best not to mention it
to anyone and just present it to the Lord.

ace

    Hi Sis,
    
    I think Ace has answered well what I believe from my heart about
    spiritual experiences.  The only thing that I would highlight is who
    does it glorify?
    
    Does God get glory when people are laying flat on the floor?  Does God
    get the glory when people are watching this and shaking their heads at
    it's authenticity?  
    
    Nancy

	Nancy,
	
	I wasn't speaking to being slain in the Spirit, I was speaking
	to spiritual experiences in general.
	
	If God moves in me to whatever extent, he always gets the glory.

	I sat in a service once and started weeping as the Holy Spirit
	began working in me on some things I hadn't even realized had
	been such a problem.  It was during praise and worship.  Do I
	have an instance from scripture to support what happened to me?
	Well, no, not explicitly.  Was it then not of God ?

	Karen

re -1

Karen,

And He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; 
nor sorrow, nor crying... Rev 21:4

In this age there will be tears shed. Very biblical.

ace

 A scripture I like to remember with regard to this is 1 Cor 15:33 (I think)

 "God is not the author of confusion, but of peace as in all churches of the
 saints".

 There have been times when I've felt giddy, wanted to shout hallelujah (I
 know I'd shout it right, I just can't spell it right) at times when I gained
 new understandings or witnessed someone getting saved.  I see no problem 
 with that, nor do I see a problem with some of the other manifestations that
 have been discussed in this topic.


 The problem, IMO is (and I believe Paul touches on this in 1 Corinthians) is
 what is the impression that will be left on the unbeliever.  I can't help
 but think, that if an unbeliever were to wander in to the service I mentioned
 in an earlier note, or happened on it on the television, and seen these people
 rolling on the floor, yelling, yelping and convulsing with hysterical laughter,
 that they would not have a very positive impression of Chrisitanity.


 I have been moved to tears at church, or when contemplating things of the
 Lord...heck, just a few weeks ago I had to leave work for a while so as to
 regain my composure as I came to a realization of something...there is no
 problem there, IMO.




 Jim

    Karen,
    
    To answer your question, I believe that weeping when the Spirit of God
    moves is very Biblical... I don't see it as being unusual.  I also
    don't think that anyone seeing a broken heart before God weeping would
    be offended.  I understand the point you are trying to make.
    
    Nancy

With you, Karen.  Though Psalm 126:6 comes near. 

There's an elder of my church I very much respect ( ! ;-) who many years
ago (> 40) was my pastor.  However, he has referred to an early experience
when he was put off by a preacher whose heart burden moved him to tears
while preaching, in the pulpit.  I was very saddened by this, as we are
given emotions as an expression of how the soul is moved; it reflects a
genuineness of the burden.  And if a preacher can't care about the Word he
is preaching enough to stir his own heart, how can he expect to stir anyone
else's heart?  Jesus cared enough to weep - over death, over Jerusalem...  
If I do not, it's no credit to me.

OK - I know that's just a specific example, rather than the general 
principle that we're discussing here. I'll move on .... :

We are created with emotions and feelings as part of our personality, with 
which we glorify God.  It's one outward aspect which distinguishes us from 
animals.  And from machines.  Not to say that we shuold go overboard with 
them, but we should use them rather than unduly inhibitting them (now just 
why does Ecclesiastes 3:4 come to mind...? ;-)  We should know the right 
time to express the right emotions, and the right time to restrain them.
There are areas which tend to go to either extreme - expressing / giving 
way to / collapsing wiith feelings which are inappropriate (generally 
because they're not truly submitted to the LORD, and reflecting His 
Spirit) - or restrained, stiff and formal to the point of inhibition.
We all have different criteria and standards for exactly what is right 
here, but need to accept each other 'where we are'.

I think I would be uneasy with an excess of emotion I could use to express 
appreciation of *worldly* things, but which was excluded from spiritual 
things.  The heavenly is infinitely more worth getting excited about (in 
every way) than the temporal.  It's just that sometimes we shouldn't 
publicly.

Similarly there are areas of expression which we haven't explored, which 
can happen to us.  Whenever people in the Bible meet with an angel, let 
alone with the LORD, they are pretty overwhelmed.  When they meet with the 
LORD....  John, in Revelation 1, Isaiah in Isaiah 6, Ezekiel in Ezekiel 1...
I believe there's a precedent for being overwhelmed, and for Him to do 
according to His will.  Almost unmentionable, some of the things He got
them to do, but even then, He graciously gave them leeway when they gulped 
and said "I find that kinda tough, LORD..." (Ezekiel 4:14-15, my paraphrase)

The balance between Him being a 'God of order' and not 'of disorder' has to
accomodate us being individual stones in the bulding, and not identical
bricks.  Not that we just perform parallel roles; rather that we behave and
think in different ways.  Some are best at loving and miinistering; some at
precise doctrine, some at organising, some at getting on tqwith whatever
practical job is needed.  We don't have to wear matching (or even toning)
clothes.  Or sit in rows (though we do ;-).  That's not the sort of 'order'
that's significant.  That 'order' is that each reflects the Holy Spirit, 
which implies not being unseemly, or contradicting revealed truth.  That we 
make room for each other to grow, in love; that we do not undervalue each 
other, nor overvalue self; that we discern where the LORD is, and where he 
is leading, and are eager to follow Him together.... 1 Corinthians 14:30 
implies a measure of controlled interruption (only 3 verses from the 
reminder that God is a God of order).

But I'm wandering...

						God bless
								Andrew

    You know, I find a lot of people who through out the baby with the
    bathwater on this subject, because they can't support it with scripture,
    tend to ignore a lot of things that scripture commands us to do.
    
    Read Psalm 149 and Psalm 150.
    
    Glenn

>    Just a quick note concerning being slain in the Spirit, I have been and
>    there was a heavy annointing from the Lord so that I fell.  I am
>    totally discounting that God's presence can bring people down.

I can't parse this.  First you seem to be saying that under the annointing of
the Lord you fell down.  Then you seem to be saying that you totally discount
that such a thing was possible.

I can't get the two sentences to fit together.  Can you clarify what you were
saying?

Paul

 What purpose does being slain in the spirit serve, and where is it mentioned
 in scripture?





 Jim

    After reading the previous notes on being slain in the Spirit I thought
    I would enter one from the other side (the one laying on hands).  In
    the past, as I have prayed for people some have been 'slain in the
    Spirit'.  I never ask for it, I never look for it, I never expect it. 
    In response to a previous question, the term 'slain in the Spirit' is
    not in the Bible but there are accounts of people falling in the
    presence of God.  I know that there is debate as to whether or not this
    is a voluntary prostration.  There is no direct purpose that I can
    perceive it is simply a reaction of the individual to the presence of
    God.  The best I can describe it is a kind of an overload of the
    Spirit.  Or trying to stand against a large wave in the ocean.  That
    said, I have seen individuals (and whole congregations) who seek that
    experience when the evangelist comes in.  A few months back I had to
    rebuke a congregation for just such a thing.  During a time of prayer
    at the end of a service, one of the leaders of the church brought up a
    young lady to be prayed for.  When I asked why she had come forward the
    leader said that "she just wants to feel the power of God."  My
    response was that she needed to get saved (which she did).  I am very
    careful of how heavy I place my hand on an individual and many times I
    will not actually touch the individual at all or only very briefly.  I
    have seen men who push and it is a mockery of Christ that these charades 
    persist in the church.  It is a shame but ministry, to some, has become a 
    commodity.  Nevertheless, God still heals.  Not because of man's
    righteousness but because of His faithfulness.
    

Replies moved here from discussion in note 501 (original .49, .50, .52, ,52)
as they're on the 'Slain in the Spirit' topic.

							   Andrew
							co-moderator

.66

Thanks for the balance, Kent.  Much appreciated.

    People must remember at  ALL times that the power we recieve from God,
    we have been given because it is HIS will not ours. We pray for
    healing, for wisdom, and a closeness to HIM, and recieve what HE wants
    us to have. Remember to humble yourselves before the Lord, and HE will
    lift you up, not the other way around.
    
    Donald

Southern African Anglican News
December 21, 1994                          Item No. Jan95/ 01

The "Toronto blessing", the phenomenon in which people are "slain
in the Spirit", is spreading in the Anglican Church in southern
Africa.
    Parishes in the dioceses of Grahamstown, Johannesburg and Port
Elizabeth are among South African church communities which have
reported that members have been thrown to the floor, erupted in
laughter, overcome by tears, or overwhelmed with a sense of joy
and peace.
    However, the Dean of Grahamstown, the Very Revd Chich Hewitt, has
cautioned his parish against the feeling that those who do not
undergo the experience are "second-class" Christians.
    The phenomenon first became apparent at the Airport Vineyard
Church in Toronto, Canada. Widespread publicity was given to its
emergence at an Anglican parish in Brompton, London, and the first
news of it spreading among Anglicans in South Africa was published
in Port Elizabeth.
    The Revd Peter Laithwaite of St Catherine's, Bramley,
Johannesburg, who visited Toronto in November, said that people at
three Johannesburg parishes had received the blessing and there was
interest in others.
    The latest issue of "Umbuliso", newsletter of the Diocese of
Grahamstown, reports experiences from two East London parishes.
    The Revd Tom Bartley of St Alban's, East London, said his
initial response was "defensive and flippant". But then he was
"re-filled" with the Holy Spirit.
    "Is this just a shallow, emotional, fundamentalist over-
reaction?" he wrote. "No, it is not. It is the sovereign work of
God. We are not placing emphasis on the unusual phenomena but
rather on the changes taking place in people's lives."
    Dean Hewitt told his parish that the occurrence of "resting in
the spirit" had been described by St Teresa of Avila as long ago
as the 16th century.
    He commended the fact that she had played down religious
experience in her spiritual direction of others, and added: "No
matter what anyone else may say, it is not necessary that you as
an individual should have this experience because someone else
has had it.
    "This may seem obvious, but the pressures are already around that
everybody should be slain in the Spirit. But God speaks to us all
in different ways."
    He said in an interview that after writing the warning, he had
undergone the experience himself: "I wouldn't change what I wrote,
I would still hold strongly to it," he said. -- CPSA