| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 149.1 | | RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Thu May 20 1993 15:53 | 24 |
|
>1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
The love and caring shown to each other. I've never met anyone
in this conference and the only person I've actually talked to
is Nancy, yet I feel such a closeness to everyone taht I can't
explain. God's work is surely being done in this conference.
>2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
An occasional lack of #1. I think we sometimes need to think
before we shoot, myself included.
>3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
Moderator control of snarfs.
Sandy
|
| 149.2 | | ECADSR::SHERMAN | Steve ECADSR::Sherman DTN 223-3326 MLO5-2/26a | Thu May 20 1993 16:20 | 3 |
| I agree with Sandy. (um ... amen!)
Steve
|
| 149.3 | | CHTP00::CHTP05::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Thu May 20 1993 16:36 | 25 |
| I also agree with Sandy on points 1 and 2. However, about point 3....
>1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
In addition, the opportunity for honest exchange of questions and
answers relating to the Bible and Christianity (to both believers and
unbelievers), and the opportunity to share what the Lord is doing in
our lives and support each other in our walks and growth in the Lord.
As well, for some of us, it has allowed us to be able to meet and
fellowship with other believers during times we are "on the road".
>2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
One way that this conference differs from the "usual" form of
fellowship is that many different "doctrinal" or "denominational" views
are present. While this can be a positive as well (to better
understand the views of others), this can also lead to some rather
extended debate which sometimes can become wearisome. At times I would
rather just let the varying views be stated, and "agree to disagree".
>3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
All snarfs delegated to normal (Central Time Zone) working hours. :-)
Mark L.
|
| 149.4 | | RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Thu May 20 1993 16:37 | 21 |
| <<< Note 149.1 by RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA "Horn players have more brass" >>>
>>1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
>The love and caring shown to each other. I've never met anyone
>in this conference and the only person I've actually talked to
>is Nancy, yet I feel such a closeness to everyone taht I can't
>explain. God's work is surely being done in this conference.
I feel led to amend this note. Mr. Metcalfe was kind enough to call
me and play a recording of his most recent musical success. You guys
have to hear it. It's absolutely outstanding!
Funny, Mark, you don't sound like you have a beard. :^)
|
| 149.5 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu May 20 1993 17:01 | 11 |
| These replies have been great. Would really like to see more.
Let me add another question, though to perhaps facilitate number 3.
3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
how can we change that?
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
Nancy
|
| 149.6 | All is Confidential that is offline | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu May 20 1993 17:10 | 7 |
| ATTENTION READ ONLIES!!!!!
I would really love your input, please write me offline if you feel led
to respond to these questions.
Thanks,
Nancy
|
| 149.7 | | RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Thu May 20 1993 17:29 | 24 |
|
>3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
>tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
>how can we change that?
I'm afraid there isn't much we can do to change others
perceptions.. One man's feast is another man's poison, after
all. I suspect we are a bit narrow, but Jesus told us that the
gate to Heaven would be narrow. As for confrontational, yes,
there is some of that here. Jesus was somewhat confrontational
when he cleaned out the temple. However, I don't think there is
a single person in this conference who is truly uncaring. Yes,
the message is harsh, but the alternative is even harsher.
>4. Do you see Jesus in here?
Absolutely!
Sandy
|
| 149.8 | +,- and Comments | MSDSWS::HWILLIAMS | | Thu May 20 1993 18:21 | 11 |
| I am just a new reader of Christian notes but find that there are very
positive and refreshing bits of information provided. As one has
indicated they have never met or talked with anyone except Nancy, it
sure sounds like everyone is close.
Being a born-again Christian in the Bible belt is difficult and this
conference provides some solid input and encouragement.
I do see Jesus in the responses and attitudes.
|
| 149.9 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu May 20 1993 18:53 | 6 |
| >Being a born-again Christian in the Bible belt is difficult and this
>conference provides some solid input and encouragement.
Hmmm. the Bible Belt, meaning Texas area?
|
| 149.10 | Want more | SIERAS::MCCLUSKY | | Thu May 20 1993 18:53 | 21 |
| The postive attributes of this conference is the overwhelming feeling
of Love of Christ, and the fellowxhip with our brothers in Christ. I
feel very secure and comfortable with most responses.
The most negative item for me has been the requirement to be
"politically correct" for our Digital environment. It seems to me that
if we wish to express the views of Jesus on things such as
homosexuality, then we should be able to say what we want. I have been
re-dressed for pointing out that someone was not a Christian, and I
feel that this is out of place. If I am commenting to Christians isn't
it important that I note the person's religious bias, particularly
somone from a different faith?
I do not sense an uncaring or narrow view in this Notesfile. If you
are responding with Christ's word, you can have it only one way.
Jesus is a regular participant in my view.
In His Love,
Your Other Brother Daryl
|
| 149.11 | | RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Thu May 20 1993 19:05 | 20 |
| <<< Note 149.8 by MSDSWS::HWILLIAMS >>>
>Being a born-again Christian in the Bible belt is difficult and this
>conference provides some solid input and encouragement.
Could you elaborate a little bit? I'm curious what it's like to be a
Christian in other parts of the country.
Thanks and welcome. :^)
Sandy
|
| 149.12 | More input | MIMS::GULICK_L | When the impossible is eliminated... | Fri May 21 1993 03:48 | 46 |
|
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
It would be impossible to overstate the importance of knowing the presence
of this group on a regular basis. On the job we are so much "in the world",
and, for me, this conference is a definite buffer that helps me avoid
both depression with the world and/or becoming "of the world". I don't
have as much time as I'd like to get involved in some discussions, and I've
only met Fran, but it has been so easy to love you all.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
While there are things that I might like to see different, they do not
represent negative attributes of this conference. Whether I am wrong in
wanting to change them or others are wrong and need the change, they are
human failings. The conference succeeds in that it is designed to be a
fellowship of humans.
3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
More input from me and others who struggle to find time. Less dependance
on Mark and a few others to "carry our banner".
3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
how can we change that?
narrow: Yes. That's why it is the conference I pay attention to. When
I was a child I wasted time with "other paths" one has to put up
with in other conferences.
I have also looked into other conferences at times, such as the
Metal Detector, Civil War, and Joyoflex. They are also successful
and of interest BECAUSE they are narrow. This conference has the
added incentive of being based on absolute truth.
confrontational: We could do better on this one.
uncaring: But not on this one. Some may not recognize caring in the
rainment it sometimes requires. Valuing a difference may do
harm, and caring may require otherwise.
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
I see him in the lives of people in here.
Lew
|
| 149.13 | Additional | MIMS::GULICK_L | When the impossible is eliminated... | Fri May 21 1993 05:26 | 14 |
|
Additional thoughts after re-reading other responses:
[ all :-) ]
1) What is a snarf? Why would delegating snarfs to God's time
(CST for the uneducated) matter?
2) Why is everyone talking only to Nancy?
3) What would Mark sound like if he sounded like he had a beard?
After all he hasn't had it very long.
Lew
|
| 149.14 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Fri May 21 1993 08:17 | 40 |
| Hello Nancy!
� 1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
I enjoy the fellowhip, exchanges, similarities and differences between
those who live the LORD, and this, as a place where we can share 'what we
are' before Him together. Sharing Him, here with those who don't know Him
is also a highlight
� 2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
A tendency to feel so much at home that others might feel excluded by what
they see of 'me' rather than of 'the LORD'.
� 3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
- or if I could make that 'Who...',
- the LORD.
Always, more and more, expressed in and though each of us.
Addendum of 149.5:
Let me add another question, though to perhaps facilitate number 3.
� 3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
� tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
� how can we change that?
'This conference has been accused' ... Not the conference. Maybe sometimes
parts of us show that are still growing, and we'd rather keep those parts
under wraps until they were presentable, but that's an aspect of Him working
in us. We grow together, as we are willing to accept Him showing us whats
inside.
� 4. Do you see Jesus in here?
All over the place!
Andrew
|
| 149.15 | | EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS | Trade freedom for security-lose both | Fri May 21 1993 11:36 | 107 |
| � 1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
I enjoy all the things that others have mentioned - the fellowship, sharing of
ideas and of how the Lord is working in our lives. But for me the overriding
benefit of this conference is that it draws my focus to the Lord much better
during my work day. In a short break at any time of day, while waiting for some
other task to complete, I can pop in here and see evidence of the Lord at work.
That's invaluable.
� 2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
Every once in a while while discussing a controversial issue - and they are the
same issues over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over
and over...........(that's another negative) - people become so heated in their
defense of the truth - and I agree it's truth - that for a short moment we allow
our carnal selves to show through. I count myself among those who have done
this.
I'm not referring to taking a strong stand or even using strong words. Those
can both be done with great love. But every once in a while, I see strong words
that don't SOUND loving, even if the person writing them is saying them out of
love. That leads to question #3:
� 3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
� tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
� how can we change that?
This conference is very narrow. It is defined that way in its basic guidelines:
we are narrow on purpose - we believe in a God who can be known by those who
seek Him, and in an absolute truth that He personifies and that He wishes us to
follow. Due to the extreme tolerance of anything and everything that is the
current coin of the realm in our culture, 'narrow' has become a condemnatory
word. Any attempt by anyone to believe - or worse, proclaim - that absolute
truth exists and they are at least TRYING to follow it, is reacted to with
disdain, dismissal and even hatred by the prevailing worldview. I would not be
concerned that we are accused of being narrow. In fact, I'd be concerned if we
WEREN'T perceived as narrow.
And has also been pointed out, those who proclaim themselves 'broad' aren't
nearly as broad as they'd like to think. How open-minded are the 'open-minded'
on the question of whether absolute truth exists?
Confrontational - first off, just saying "this is absolute truth" is taken as
confrontational by many people. So long as we believe in and seek to follow
absolute truth, and so long as we identify thoughts, words, and deeds which are
not in line with that absolute truth, we will be perceived as confrontational.
But as I mentioned in #2, I think we sometimes slip on this one, in two
different ways. One, there are many times that there is a lively heat in
discussions here that is fine among friends, but may be taken as offense by
someone unfamiliar with the group. We need to remember who we are talking to
when we respond - an intensity level that we use with a good friend may be too
much for a stranger to understand that no malice is meant. I do also see
some times that we slip beyond 'lively heat,' and I'd like to see those times
lessen, but I do them myself - we're not perfect, just forgiven.
Uncaring - 'caring' has come to mean 'commiserating' to many people - to just
say "I understand, you poor thing, how terrible for you," regardless of what the
situation is or how the person came to be there. I see TREMENDOUS caring in
this notesfile. I see the Lord lifting up people here. I see a tremendous
outpouring of support for those who come and say either "These things beyond my
control have afflicted me," or "I repent of this sin in my life, please pray for
me."
But the loving and caring thing to do is not always to commiserate. Sometimes
the loving thing to do is point out sin, and point the way to release from that
sin. If someone comes here clinging to sin in their life and seeks
commiseration and validation, that is not what they will receive. The truly
"caring" thing to do in that case is to call for repentance, but to someone who
doesn't want to hear that, it sounds tremendously callous. We could sometimes
do a better job though in the words we choose when doing this though. There are
some people (no names) who exude care and concern in every word they write, even
when they are saying something harsh. And there are others who I have to keep
telling myself "they're doing this out of love, they're doing this out of love"
because that doesn't come through their words very well at all, even though I
know it's there. And if I have a hard time seeing it when I know it's there,
someone who doesn't think it's there in the first place will never see it. I
think we all need to remember that in this faceless, voiceless, hugless medium
of notesfile, it is not enough that we FEEL concern and care for the people we
may be confronting. We need to SHOW that love in our words - our words are ALL
that the person on the other end will see.
I feel at least somewhat qualified to comment on this because I've been on the
other side of the fence. I've poked my nose into CHRISTIAN many times over at
least the past 6-8 years. At the beginning of that time, I was one of the
people who perceived this group as very narrow, judgemental, confrontatitve and
uncaring. I would start following the file, with something of an agenda to
loosen up you closed-minded people, would get into heated discussions about some
of those hot-button issues like the authority of the Bible, and would leave in
frustration, saddened that such callous people were claiming the name of Christ.
But I've come to see over those years that truth exists and falsehood exists,
and open-minded acceptance of any ideas is not the wonderful thing that our
society thinks it is. Now I'm one of the people proclaiming that there is an
absolute truth that God wants us to adhere to, and being 'confrontational' and
'judgemental' about those things which conflict with that truth.
You haven't changed over those 8 years, I have. So long as our culture
glorifies 'tolerance,' those of us who cling to the absolute truth of the Lord
are going to be perceived as narrow for holding to that truth, confrontational
for identifying falsehood, and uncaring for refusing to validate and accept
falsehood. We might as well accept that this will *always* be the world's
perception of us, and wear the title 'narrow' as a badge of honor:
"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and few are
those who find it." (Mt 7:14)
Paul
|
| 149.16 | A little on the subject.... | JURAN::SILVA | Memories..... | Fri May 21 1993 13:03 | 103 |
|
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
I see many people in this conference who are or by their actions show they are
loving people. This is very important for any conference, any place or any one
to have. In most instances I see the intent implied to be very loving.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
There are really only 2 that really stand out. One is the arguing that goes on
in here sometimes is anything but edifying. The comments, some which are
demeaning really need to stop. Take me out of the picture and look at the
arguments that go on in here. The words that are sometimes spoken. We have all
read them. Is this what God really wants?
The second thing that I see as a negative attribute is that this conference has
come to a point that growth seems to have stopped. By placing a million rules
on what can or can't be talked about, the growth process has seemed to of
stopped. Now, I'm not talking about the homosexuality topic, but just look at
the rules that exist that prohibit growth:
1) The basis of the Christian notes conference is that we hold the
Bible to be God-breathed, inerrant, and authoritative.
By this rule you do leave out a large part of the population at DEC.
There are probably many questions that people (other than me) may have about
any given topic that won't ask for clarification because they are afraid of the
outcome (I judge this by the mail I have received on several occasions). To
grow one needs to hear the entire story, not just one facet of it.
2) Any entries that are derogatory, attempt to alter it, or attack
Biblical beliefs will be be set hidden and/or deleted.
Same as above. If someone questions something, the end result is to
delete it. Great atmosphere to try and learn in. Believe as I do and everything
is fine. Don't, and the end is near.
3) Such arguments will be viewed as not valuing the difference of belief
and will be handled as the situation requires.
Is only one difference to be valued? Who in here can say that there are
no differences in this file? Just look at the heated arguments in this file
will tell you that this is not true. How is one to grow in Christ when one is
enclosed in a small portion of the entire creation that God has given us?
4) In the past, the topic of homosexuality produced an immense amount of
heated and fruitless discussion.
Just a comment on this. Where was the heat coming from?
5) This conference is founded on the premise that the Bible is
God-breathed and those who attack this premise show themselves to be
antagonists to the conference and its participants, perhaps also in violation
of corporate policies to value difference, and moreso, in opposition to the
God of the Bible.
This one is really strange indeed. You bring up valuing differences,
but then you close the door on any difference that doesn't match yours. Do you
really value differences? Can people grow while being placed in a bubble? Does
God of the Bible say to stay inclosed in your own little space or does He say
go out and talk to the masses? If the latter, is that being done here?
3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
More open discussions on topics, and if someone is of another religion
and their beliefs are different than yours, to discuss the differences of their
beliefs. To talk about the different denominations and how they apply to
Christianity as a whole, things like that. Oh yeah, for the derogatory comments
to come to a halt.
4. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
how can we change that?
I agree with this that AT TIMES the conference is like this. To help stop this
from happening I think we need to stop with the derogatory comments, open up a
little bit to the outside world. At times it seems that this conference, with
it's rules in place, is closed in, almost cult like.
5. Do you see Jesus in here?
A lot of the times, yes I do. But with the arguing that goes on, the comments
that are made, the closed mindedness of what can be talked about, sometimes
makes me wonder where Jesus is in here? I mean, did Jesus ever use derogatory
comments?
Glen
|
| 149.17 | :^) | RIPPLE::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Fri May 21 1993 13:55 | 25 |
|
>1) What is a snarf? Why would delegating snarfs to God's time
(CST for the uneducated) matter?
Snarf is an acronym for Stupid Nonsensical Adult Ridiculous
Foolishness. Markel and Jim H. are recognized Snarfmeisters.
2) Why is everyone talking only to Nancy?
Beats me.
3) What would Mark sound like if he sounded like he had a beard?
After all he hasn't had it very long.
Silly. Everyone knows that all bearded men are basses, although the
converse is not necessarily true, nor are the two mutually exclusive.
Mark is a tenor, therefore he does not sound bearded.
Hope this helps, Lew.
|
| 149.18 | | FRETZ::HEISER | raise your voice in shouts of joy | Fri May 21 1993 14:05 | 3 |
| >Silly. Everyone knows that all bearded men are basses, although the
that's why I never grew one. Nobody calls me a fish!
|
| 149.19 | Mod Action\ | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri May 21 1993 18:20 | 10 |
| Notes 149.19 - 149.25 have been moved to their own topic.
Please continue with answering the survey questions in here only. And
if you have been disuaded to answer due to the break-out discussion of
the conference premises, please write me offline, as I still value your
input very much.
Thanks,
Nancy
Co-mod CHRISTIAN
|
| 149.20 | my two pence worth... | GUCCI::BPHANEUF | On your knees! Fight like a man! | Sat May 22 1993 01:16 | 83 |
|
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
This conference provides a rather unique environment for
Bible-Believing Christians to grow in their walk with the L_rd,
sharing their needs & blessings, challenges & victoriespain and
joy, ministries & gifts, questions and Scriptural insights. The
ministry that in on-going as an off-shoot of this conference is
absolutely life-changing. This ministry would almost certainly not
occured (certainly not in the facilitated manner in which it did
occur), had this conference not existed and provided the seedbed
from which sprang forth the nurturing, healing, and discipling
relationships, providing the avenue for Spirit empowered ministry.
CHRISTIAN is the *only* Easy Notes which ascribes to and maintains
a reliance upon the 66 Books of the Bible as an inerrant,
imuutable and absolute standard in all matters of conversation and
conduct. Whether or not the participant likes or dislikes, agrees
with or disagrees the basic premises of this conference, they are
clearly stated, and s/he should find no philosophical "landmines"
covertly and previously laid so as to catch the uninformed and
unaware off guard, and thereby facilitate hidden agendas. This also
(should) saves a great deal of vain argumentation over "my
philosophical approach is superior to your's!", which is vanity.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
The propensity to allow theological discussion to devolve from a
mutual sharing of Scriptural understanding to a defensive, "I'm
right! G_d told me so, and my mommy agrees with meeeeee!" For that
reason, I have substantially refrained from even reading almost all
such discussions since being assigned up here in Maine. I have not
the time, nor energy to devote to such vehement and tenacious
dissection of minutae.
Ask yourself, "100 years from now, when I'm dead (or Raptured) and
gone to heaven, will this discussioreally matter? What will
pre-Believers viewing this discussion think of Messiah Y'shua
because of the subject, nature and tone of my participation (as His
ambassador) in this note string? Most importantly, how will you
explain, when standing before the Judge's Throne on That Day?
3a. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
Keeping to the topic of the base note in all discussion strings.
A pointer (ie - "re: -.2") in every and every note, which refers
facilitating a deeper and clearer understanding reply,
3b. This conference has been accused of being "narrow",
"confrontational" and "uncaring" in intonation.
Do you agree, and if so, how can we change that?
I agree whole-heartedly, providing the terms are defined as follows:
Narrow - strictly ascribing the Basic Premises of this conference
and proclaiming that the Scripture as the *ONLY* final arbitor of
conversation and conduct. The Bible can *afford* to be narrow in
its proclamations - G_d is sovereign and omniscient.
Confrontational - The Holy Spirit through the Apostle Paul spent no
small amount of text and time describing the Older Covenant (in
particular, the Torah) as intended to confront mankind with the
recognition of their sinful state and actions, as well as the
temporal and eternal consequences of of that sin. The Newer
Covenant shows that Messiah Y'shua was (and, IMHO, *is*) the most
confrontion sort of Person you could imagine, when dealing with
unrepented sin and rebellious and wicked hearts.
Uncaring - Insofar as this addresses a concern for our Political
Correctness, or tolerance for a consistent and rebellious rejection
of G_d and His Word, I certainly *hope* that we're as is Y'shua. If
you just can't picture Him that way, re-read Rev 1:10-20!
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
I see him to the most significant degree in the Prayer and the
Praise topics. I see Him the least in vain disputations which I
Thank you,
Brian
|
| 149.22 | A Few Words in Answer | SNOFS2::MATTHEWS | | Sun May 23 1993 01:32 | 45 |
| My answers to Nancy's questions:
1: This conference provides a public, all warts showing, ecumenical
forum for Christians to appreciate the views and understandings of
fellow believers. Let's keep talking! I wonder how many people of other
beliefs read these notes?
2: Some topics degrade into out of control arguments. Some replies
become very confusing when they consist of nested cut & paste pieces
from previous responses and then only add a few criptic words of new
material. Some responses are less than loving; sometimes the fingers on
the keyboard simulate a too quick verbal response.
3. The conference needs more contributors and more personal
testimonies. Perhaps harsher moderator control of the run-away debates.
4. Yes, the conference is narrow and confrontational. The Pharisees
probably said that of Jesus. However, they would not have described Him
as uncaring and that is what this conference must avoid at all costs.
5. I see Jesus in the personal testimonies that sometimes shine out of
my terminal. The dogma and positional statements which produce heated
debate are simply interesting technicalities (sometimes).
A personal note: Glen, I laughed when I read your healing note 148.0; I
thought "this bloke will be attacked from all sides, why does he do
it?" But some very useful responses came back. Thank you.
I quote Francis of Assisi (who has probably been archived many times in
previous conferences)
"Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace. Where there is hatred, let
me sow love; where there is injury, pardon; where there is doubt,
faith; where there is despair, hope; where there is sadness. joy; where
there is darkness, light.
O Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled,
as to console; not so much to be understood, as to understand; not so
much to be loved, as to love. For it is giving that we receive, it is
in pardoning that we are pardoned, it is in dying that we are born
again to eternal life."
Yours for the Lord,
Erwin
|
| 149.23 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon May 24 1993 11:52 | 91 |
| 1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
I've been waiting for someone to say it like I feel it. I'll borrow
from Brian on this one:
> CHRISTIAN is the *only* Easy Notes which ascribes to and maintains
> a reliance upon the 66 Books of the Bible as an inerrant,
> immutable and absolute standard in all matters of conversation and
> conduct. Whether or not the participant likes or dislikes, agrees
> with or disagrees the basic premises of this conference, they are
> clearly stated, and s/he should find no philosophical "landmines"
> covertly and previously laid so as to catch the uninformed and
> unaware off guard, and thereby facilitate hidden agendas.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
Constant challenges to the premise of the conference by which we
choose to exist and judge all concepts, issues, philosophies, etc.
They drain time, resource, and energy.
However, on the positive side: this conference moves in cycles.
One cycle is the "iron sharpening iron" that goes on between
Christians who wrestle over an issue, using the Bible to see what it
says about the issue. The "tithing" topic is one example. I see
this as "training" for real battles.
The second cycle is the battling of heresy. These are attacks from
"the outside" who attack an issue from humanism, or other "higher"
reasoning, but not from God's Word, the Bible.
It is a given that we all want our opinions to be heard and valued.
But in this conference, all of us are asked to submit our opinions
to the measure of the Word of God through the Bible. Where opinions
about the inerrant Bible differ, we can and have shown our mettle.
I say this being aware of "term-shifting" people who would
[re]define a difference of opinion (interpretation) on Scripture to
mean editing or throwing out portions of Scripture that doesn't
match their view of life. In all things, the Word has authority and
the proper translation of the original texts is also important.
This is another negative attribute: people who would redefine terms,
passages, etc, to suit their purposes. We must come to agreement on
the definition of terms in order to communicate. This is the second
brick upon the foundation of this conference: the inerrant Bible.
3a. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
Greater cycles of iron sharpening iron and lesser cycles of dealing
with the attackers of the premise by which we gather together.
Sincere searching for answers from a biblical perspective without
the constant defending of an inerrant Bible.
3b. This conference has been accused of being "narrow",
"confrontational" and "uncaring" in intonation.
Do you agree, and if so, how can we change that?
Again, I'll borrow from Brian, and say that with the terms thus
defined, I believe the conference should be narrow and
confrontational, but not uncaring.
> I agree whole-heartedly, providing the terms are defined as follows:
>
> Narrow - strictly ascribing the Basic Premises of this conference
> and proclaiming that the Scripture as the *ONLY* final arbitor of
> conversation and conduct. The Bible can *afford* to be narrow in
> its proclamations - G_d is sovereign and omniscient.
Confrontational - The Word of God will confront us and I want to be
confronted with the Truth, wherever it strikes me. "I want to know
Christ and the power of His resurrection!"
Uncaring - This is sometime coupled with "confrontational" and the
conference medium is such that caring cannot be easily read off the
screen. Perceptions of caring can be changed, and I could cite some
examples. The question is, "Can we resist judging a response long
enough to meditate and understand what the caring response is, given
the factors?"
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
I see Jesus in some of the people in here. I see some people who
need Jesus. I see some people who want Jesus but are unwilling to
submit to His Lordship. And then I see some wolves who are
[un]wittingly trying to destroy the authority of God by attacking
the authority of God's word. These minions are seeking to destroy
your faith in the name of replacing it with a "better", "more
tolerant" "Christian" view.
Mark Metcalfe
|
| 149.24 | The Problem Is _ME_ | STRATA::BARBIERI | God can be so appreciated! | Mon May 24 1993 13:58 | 70 |
| Hi,
It would be best for me to first apply this to _me_!
I cannot help but first look at the big fat plank in my
eye. The Conference is 'as good' as the body allows Christ
to work through it and is as bad as Christ is not allowed
to work through it.
Every time I have desired to enter into a 'theology debate'
before looking for the prayer requests the Conference has
been a worse place for it. The same for every time I have
entered a theology debate without asking the Lord (for more
than 10 seconds) for His grace and for asking Him to help me
be _teachable_. I have used words that have been critical or
that are neutral. I have entered dialogues that have reduced
to sharing 'logic' but have missed the reality that it is
flesh and blood on the other side of the 'computer lines.'
I concur with Brian. Perhaps it is best to (for the most part)
let the debates go and seek out those in need. I just happen
to love talking about doctrine! I really do!! (Sinful
propensity?)
The good things I like about the Conference are mainly the prayers
and the ability of some to exhibit some impartiality in their
love - regardless of what one believes. That is real refreshing.
I have seen some in here treated rather badly and my heart has
ached. Sometimes I discern behind certain 'arguments' where one
position might be full of holes, the need for the one person to be
simply cared for and the debate to be cared less for. I think
there is a tendency to do this - to give greater weight to the
contents of the debate rather than to the persons participating.
(Myself included.)
From a doctrinal standpoint, the worst thing about the Conference
I discern is an attitude that it knows pretty much. I see the
Conference as a bit of a Pharisee. Every time I see someone say
"I love Jesus with all my heart" I can't help but think how strong
a statement that is. When we say, we see Jesus, I can't help but
think we see Him very very barely. If we saw the full glorious
love of God, well might we refrain from saying we love with all our
hearts or that we see so much of Jesus in here. I'm all for
letting tell me when it was I loved Him with all my heart for my
heart is "deceitful above all things and who can know it?"
But, then again, that is essentially my main difference from
others. I don't think we know much of anything. I don't think
we love Jesus a whole lot and I don't think we convey Jesus very
much at all. And I think we need to come to better grips with our
poverty - much like the publican. (And I think what I am saying is
more the language of my intellect than it is the language of my
heart, but I sure hope I allow it to become more the language of my
heart.)
Finally, there is the obvious limitation of the electronic medium.
So often I have not prayed to allow the Lord to use me to communi-
cate with extra care so as to (as well as possible) compensate to
some extent for the limitations of electronic exchange.
By God's grace, maybe I can allow Him to steer me more toward the
prayer requests and to offline ministry of those in need and away
from the debates.
To summarize...I am the biggest thing wrong with the Conference and
maybe that personal conviction will allow me to best do my part to
make it just a little better.
Tony
|
| 149.25 | Won't Say any More :-) | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon May 24 1993 14:28 | 12 |
| .24
Tony,
I wish that all folks had the heart of putting themselves on the line
as you have done. That is where real healing begins.
Also, I smiled a whole lot as I was reading your note, cuz it was you
through and through... the same Tony I've always known. :-)
Er ahem,
Nancy
|
| 149.26 | The Grace of God | SAHQ::WESLEY | | Mon May 24 1993 15:38 | 23 |
| I would like to see more of the grace and love of God that I know God
shows us, even when we were yet sinners. Those people in here that are
grounded in the love and Word of God will not be turned or swayed by
anything that is not in the Word of God. Those people in here that are
not grounded in the love and Word of God do stand to earn the wrath of
God, but should not receive the wrath of men. Only through the
unconditional love of God will those who are lost be saved. Not
through the works and knowledge of man.
God knows the hearts of all men. In His season, and in His own way
will He draw those who are truly seeking His truth. My prayer is that
He will be allowed to continue to use those in this notes files to show
the love of God, to quote the Word of God, and then to walk away
graciously when the Word of God is rejected.
I would like to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the fellowship in
this conference. Through it, I have made some wonderful new friends
and strengthened already formed relationships.
Through God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit and in His
Love,
Fran
|
| 149.27 | thanks for sensitvity | WR1FOR::POLICRITI_GR | | Mon May 24 1993 17:19 | 5 |
| .24 Thank you Tony. That was a beautiful answer and as honest as one
can get. I would like to say more, but sometimes I tend to get in
trouble when I say too much, so I will just say Thank you again.
|
| 149.28 | | AYOV11::EWHITE | | Wed May 26 1993 07:13 | 34 |
|
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
The open way in which things are shared. The wealth of
knowledge is of great value to me.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
I don't see any major negatives. My theory is if you look for
negative things you'll find them, same if you look for
positive things you'll find them too.
3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
For it to continue.
3. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
how can we change that?
No matter what Christians say or do there will always be people
who knock you. You just have to say what you believe is correct.
It is vital that the conference will meet the needs of all people
who are earnestly seeking to know/understand God.
This conference should not serve to entertain those who enjoy
pointless discussions.
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
I can see the evidence that Jesus has touched so many people's
lives in here. Thank you Jesus.
Erich
|
| 149.29 | Didn't ans the quests, I'm not very disciplined! | GLDOA::SLOMIANY | Commander Data | Thu May 27 1993 16:17 | 38 |
|
A definition of a secular humanist popped into my head the other
day. It might also be a good definition of a "liberal" (?). A secular humanist,
in my view, is someone who does not understand human nature, especially
in himself. Communism, which has many secular-humanist, "liberal" aspects,
is wonderful in theory, but fails miserably because it assumes man is
basically good. Capitalism, on the other hand, works fairly well because it
takes into account man's fallen nature along with man's strengths.
The problem I have with myself, and something I am very sensitive to
(we always have the most difficulty dealing with our own failings being
exhibited in others) is Christians using their faith, their doctrine, their
lifestyle, etc, as a tool to justify venting/expressing their fallen nature
without feeling guilty about it. It's pretty hard to judge whether or not a
Christian is doing this; where does encouragement/teaching/etc end and the
gleeful, prideful, warped joy of elitism begin? I don't really know... I
sometime get a sick kind of pleasure and warped sense of self-worth by
"winning" an argument, and I doubt the pleasurable feeling is from God. Pride
is the biggest aspect of our fallen nature. It's very difficult to respond in
love when your faith, your church, your denomination, etc are called into
question. Questions are raised in this conference from people who really want
the truth. Possibly some other notes are started/continued by others who want
(consciously or subconsciously) to find their self-worth in raising themselves
above others through debate. Our self-worth comes from what God thinks of us,
not from what others think of us. It's important to make our beliefs known,
but there sometimes comes a point when our Godly desire to help another get
closer to God gets transformed into a prideful desire to show our "superiority"
over others. Encouragement should be done in love, if it's not it can be
warped into something very ugly and not from God.
Bob
P.S. in response to one of the questions, I'd like to see more discussion
on the Holy Land. The 50-yard line at Michigan Stadium (where the block "M"
(a moment of silence please) is) is rarely, if ever, discussed here...
|
| 149.30 | Late as usual :-) | YUKON::GLENN | | Tue Jun 01 1993 13:31 | 61 |
| I'm a little late in responding but decided to anyway.
-Jim-
===============================================================================
Please answer the following questions:
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
That this conference discusses topics and verses from the
bible. It allows for serious discussions and also fun
type talking {i.e. Chit Chat, Poems}. There is caring
and praying for others even through the differences of
understanding.
That we have the guidelines set up for this conference.
If someone doesn't like them, too bad. That is what this
conference is about. They can follow the guidelines or choose
not to note here.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
Hmm. Tough one. That some discussions erode into personal
exchanges that do not add to the topic being discussed.
That sometimes participants {I'm included in this} fuel
the exchange by responding. If someone doesn't understand
or just refuses to agree to disagree than what's the point.
Don't bother answering or request the note be locked and
pray about it. There are exceptions to this; one being when
there is a clear attack against the guidelines of this
conference {this is a time and note waster}.
3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
I noticed there has been more encouragement for read only's which
I think is good. There seems to have been more different type
of topics being started that I think contribute to our growth
in Christ. Some topics from previous versions pop up but seem
to go better than before.
3a. This conference has been accused of being "narrow", "confronta-
tational" and "uncaring" in intonation. Do you agree, and if so,
how can we change that?
NO ! Definately not narrow. Confrontational at times by certain
participants. NOT uncaring, even through the notes that have
confrontational tendancies there almost always some brother or sister
in Christ who enters a note that cuts to the point in a very loving
and understanding way.
4. Do you see Jesus in here?
Yes. Just like in the world, I see Jesus in here and I see the
enemy rearing it's ugly head trying to confuse and confound.
I don't view this as negative, I view this as reality and what the
scriptures say we should expect. I just pray and hope that some
day I will be better prepared for the attacks and better able
to respond in Christ. Matthew 18:20\For where two or three are
gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.\
|
| 149.31 | | DECLNE::YACKEL | and if not... | Tue Jun 01 1993 13:43 | 30 |
|
I have not read this whole string, only the base note so here are my
answers to the questions:
1. What do you see as positive attributes of this conference?
The fellowship (although limited through this media)
with other believing Christians based upon the premise
of this conference. The ability to have an oasis to
express praises,concerns,prayer requests etc..with those
of like mind.
2. What do you see as negative attributes of this conference?
The tendancy to allow the influence of others who do
not adhere to the premise of this conference to disrupt
the fellowship of believers.
3. What would you like to see in CHRISTIAN?
I would like to see it as a place we can come to rest.
I dont believe that it should be an outreach, but if God
desires to use it as such then He will. Our main goal
should be to encourage and uplift each other by sharing and
praising God.
Dan
|
| 149.32 | Thanks to all! | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Jun 03 1993 17:00 | 9 |
| Thank you all who contributed to this note and to all those who wrote
offline.
This note is now closed. Please mail further contributions to the
moderators. To get a list of moderators, type SHOW MOD at the note
prompt.
Thanks Again,
Nancy co-mod CHRISTIAN
|