Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I don't believe you can know anything for sure Glen due to your stance
    on the Bible's value and reliability, though it is full of instruction
    concerning "real" and "fake".
    
    jeff

	Thanks Jeff for being oh so helpful. I appreciate it so.



Glen

    Glen,
    
    You sound sarchastic in .2, but Jeff was (from my view) being as
    helpful as he could be, in a sincere way, to your sincere question.
    
    You have a real question - how does one differentiate the fake from the
    real?
    
    Jeff's answer to you is that there is ample instruction on this in the
    Bible.  But Jeff's dillema is that you've made it clear that you don't
    view the Bible in the same way he does, you don't find it reliable
    overall, and the parts of it you like, you view as a "guideline",
    rather than knowing "...these are not just idle words for you, they are
    your life...".
    
    I don't think Jeff was being sarchastic, I think he was pointing out
    something very serious.
    
    Hope that helps,
    
    Steve

    Glen,
    
    I'd suggest the reading ACTS from head to toe, if you'd like to find
    out about real and fake, so many examples in there.  Simon the
    Sorcerer, and the women with divination in Thyatira come to mind.
    
    As much as it hurt me to see Jeff's response to you, and then Steve's
    to follow up, I must agree with them.  Glen, we Christians live our
    lives in accordance to God's word, when we have a question, we go
    there or we ask those who know God's word.
    
    I appreciate the fact that you asked the question in here knowing full
    well that our responses would be Biblical.  The question I'd ask is
    would you receive the answers?
    
    Nancy

	Nancy, all, etc, are you saying that only those who were fooled were
not true Christians?


Glen

    Glen,
      In as much as there is a Father, God, there is also Satan. God tells
      us in Dueteronomy to stay way from the wickednesses of the evil one.
      These wikednesses include things like divination, sorcery, false
      prophets with powers from the evil one and the like.
    
      So to answer your question, " are you saying that only those who were
    fooled were not true Christians?"  No, the power is THERE it can do good
    AND it can do evil. It is the motivation of the individual not the
    recipients. Glen, I have seen faith healing, and I have seen Satanic
    "faith healing". As nancy says, check out the book of Acts, you may
    be shocked at what you find there. I suggest you check out Deuteronomy
    too. You may be equally surprized to find out what the Evil one does
    to "win" mislead souls... (esp Duet 18, 22,23,25,27 and 28.)
    
      PDM
    
     ps. Acts is more in line with your quetion I think, but Dueteronomy
         chapter 18 spells it out clearly.

    Glen, 
    
    Phil has responded well.  No, unfortunately we are all susceptible to
    Satan's deceit and counterfeits.  
    
    The sad part is that Christians do not *have to be*.  Our relationship
    with Christ is to be personal one, not superficial, the more
    superficial it is the easier for the counterfeit to infiltrate.  And
    I'm guilty as charged.
    
    Nancy

    
    RE: .0
    
    Eileen George has had a healing ministry for several years now and as
    far as I know her ministry is carried out with the consent of the 
    diocese. I have seen her only once at a conference and she makes it
    clear that it is only God who heals and she is His instrument through
    this ministry. She places the healing ministry within the context of
    the full ministry of Christ and His church.
    
    It is my understanding that the healing minister may not always have
    special knowledge of who has or has not been healed; therefore, when
    the man who enjoyed playing hoaxes at healing services would come
    forward it is not expected that the minister would know if the healing
    was genuine, an overreaction, or a hoax.
    
    Mary
    

| <<< Note 148.8 by JUPITR::MNELSON >>>




| It is my understanding that the healing minister may not always have
| special knowledge of who has or has not been healed; therefore, when
| the man who enjoyed playing hoaxes at healing services would come
| forward it is not expected that the minister would know if the healing
| was genuine, an overreaction, or a hoax.

	Mary, in this case the ministers were telling him that he was healed.
They even took his crutches away at one point and told him to get up and walk.



Glen

The gifts of healing and knowledge are two separate gifts.  Some people are
blessed with both, and are able to know things about what is going on with the
healing the Lord is doing through them.  There are others who may have the gift
of knowledge, and may know what is going on with a person and in their life, but
not have the gift of healing.  They may be able to identify the problem, but 
only in rare cases bring the actual healing power of the Lord to bear directly.
I've seen this happen in cases where the person was then able to focus prayer on
that area or go to another person who had the gift of healing and receive their
healing.

And there are other people who have the gift of healing but do not have the gift
of knowledge.  There are some people who know nothing more than that when they
pray to the Lord over someone for healing, miraculous things happen.  They may
feel nothing themselves - no sense of power or presence, and they may receive
no special knowledge about the condition they are healing.  Though they bring
the healing presence of the Lord to bear on people's lives, they may feel or
sense nothing beyond what their natural senses tell them.  They may truly have
the gift of healing, yet be completely fooled by someone who fakes an infirmity
and then is "miraculously" healed.

Ideally, a healer without the gift of knowledge would try to team themselves up
with some other believers who do have that gift, to balance their ministry.  
That is not always the case.  It's a sad fact that it is often difficult for
people gifted by the Lord - whether with manifestational gifts such as healing,
or more 'natural' gifts such as a dynamic personality and preaching ability - to
stave off the sin of pride in themselves.  Some people who truly do have - or 
had - the gift of healing may become so taken with themselves that they lose
their connection to the One who is actually doing the healing.

Lastly, even for someone with the gift of knowledge, they are not expecting to
deal with people who are deliberately trying to fake them out.  They expect to
deal with skepticism.  They expect to deal with disappointment by people who are
not healed.  They expect to deal with people who have an emotional experience
but not necessarily a miraculous healing experience.  They do not hold every 
healing up under intense scrutiny to see if the person was faking it on purpose.
I know that for me, even if the gift of knowledge were far, far more refined
in me than it is now, the Lord would have to virtually yell in my ear for me to 
notice that He was telling me that the person who just threw down their crutches
and is dancing in the aisles was really faking it all along.

Oh, and BTW, Glen, I sort of had a similar reaction to several other people
about your question of "how do we tell what is real".  You had to know before 
you even asked that the answer here would be "test it against Scripture."  To 
then be offended by that answer, even when offered in the tone of "I know you
won't like this answer," is a bit unrealistic.

Paul

    I apologize Glen for having obviously offended you.  It was not my
    intent.
    
    jeff

    Jeff,
    
    Bro, I can't tell you how humbling that is to see.  And Praise God our
    humility doesn't rest on the laurels of others humility, eh?
    
    Love you,
    Nancy

    Glen,

    As someone who has been used by the Lord in several instances of
    physical healing, I briefly offer my experience for what it's worth.

    Sometimes the Lord has told me directly what the exact disorder is;
    other times, the person has told me themselves.  Sometimes He will tell
    me that He is performing the healing right then and there; other times
    I can feel His power working to heal; still other times, I have no
    obvious indication that anything is going on.  At all times, though, I
    claim by faith His promise that the prayer offered in faith will make
    the sick person well.  The key to all of it is to make sure that I'm
    doing what He tells me to do, and nothing else.

    How could someone else tell whether or not a healing is genuine?
    Other than obvious physical changes in the person being healed, or
    medical testimony, the only way that comes to mind is spiritual
    discernment, which presumes that the person has the Holy Spirit and
    is listening to Him.

    In His love,

				*** Daryl ***

    I have an offshoot question about this topic.  I am currently trying to
    expand my knowledge of the bible, and I have heard two different
    explanations from people I respect. 
    
    In discussions with someone from the Church of Christ faith they say
    miracles of healing stopped with the Apostles.  When the last one died,
    the ability to heal ended with it.
    
    A member of the Pentacostal faith says miracles of healing continue
    even today.
    
    I would appreciate your thoughts.
    
    Doug

>    A member of the Pentacostal faith says miracles of healing continue
>    even today.

James 5:14  Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church;
and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
 15  And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise
him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

I think elders post-dates apostles.

    Re: .14 -- question on healing
    
    This is one of those "issues" that can give rise to heated debate in
    this conference.  I in no way want to incite such.  You have obviously
    heard two opinions on this matter.  I would add a slightly different
    one.  I myself do not lean toward the "pentecostal" or "charismatic"
    side on these issues.  However, to deny that God can heal today is to
    deny God's ability to do whatever He wants.  I have known God to do
    miraculous things (including healing) as a result of prayer.  I will
    never say that God cannot heal today.  However, I don't agree with
    making healing the emphasis of a ministry.  I believe the the emphasis
    that God desires among His people today is the proclamation of the
    Gospel and the Word of God.
    
    By the way, if you are interested in some past "discussions" on this
    matter, I did a quick search.  You might want to look at the following
    archived conferences on the node ATLANA::
      CHRISTIAN_V1 note 56
      CHRISTIAN_V2 note 111
      CHRISTIAN_V3 notes 112 and 534
      CHRISTIAN_V4 note 685
      CHRISTIAN_V5 notes 631, 990, and 1014
      CHRISTIAN_V6 note 451
    
    Mark L

 I tend to agree with Mr Lovik.  I do believe God heals today, and I do believe
 that God performs other miracles.  But I'm not so sure God needs the sensation-
 alism that seems to accompany many of these services today.

 There are many Christians with more faith than all of us put together who will 
 die today, and others whom God will choose to heal.  I tend to think that 
 healing is all in accordance with His purpose and plan for our lives, and 
 the furtherance of the gospel.




 Jim

    I have been a witness to healings done in the name of Jesus Christ.
    The healings are so natural, that relatively few of the people around
    seem to notice them. The ones that people tend to put on all the hoopla 
    about, to me seem questionable.

    My son was healed from his death bed when he was three days old, after
    a priest anointed him and prayed over him, in the neonatal intensive
    care unit, at the former Boston Women's Hospital in Boston, Mass. He had 
    been without oxygen for 12 hours. His blood gases showed he was getting
    almost no oxygen in his blood. After the priest anointed him, he
    started getting 100% efficient blood gas readings. He was home six weeks
    later. In 1981, he was on record as being the sickest child to have
    ever made it out of the neonatal intensive care unit at Brigham and
    Women's Hospital. Dr. Michael Epstien, head of the unit, said that he 
    could see his recovery as nothing more than a miracle from God.
    My son is now twelve years old.

    The thing is that when a healing comes from God, you will know it. You
    will feel Jesus presence and you will know that no matter what
    happens, the situation is in Christ hands. When my wife and I felt
    Christ presence, we felt peace and joy. We were assured that if my son
    died, that he was in God's hands. When he was healed, we knew that only
    God could have done such a miraculous thing. We still praise God for
    showing us His greatness.

     Jim

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Note 310.16             Ethical questions for Christians               16 of 104
MELEE::BPHANEUF "Brian Phaneuf, Consultant, UPO-1, " 11 lines  18-JUN-1992 13:08
                             -< oh, but i *have* >-
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         re: <<< Note 310.13 by DKAS::KOLKER "Conan the Librarian" >>>
               -< Out of body, but in the thick of things... >-

     > BTW I never saw anyone who was flatline brain dead arise from that
     > state. Neither have you. You *believe* something of that sort
     > happened, but  you never saw it with your own (physical) eyes.

     Would complete lack of breathing and heartbeat (an EEC device was
     unavailable) come near enough to qualifying for you? 

     Brian

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Note 310.21             Ethical questions for Christians               21 of 104
MELEE::BPHANEUF "Brian Phaneuf, Consultant, UPO-1, " 14 lines  18-JUN-1992 14:09
                              -< additional data >-
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         RE: <<< Note 310.18 by DKAS::KOLKER "Conan the Librarian" >>>
                      -< How cold did the body get?... >-
    
      > Was he that way for three days?

     No, but I didn't think that we were trying to prove the validity of the
     resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth, here.

     FYI, the lack of breathing and heartbeat was attested to by a retired
     Army Airborne Lt Col, who had had no small amount of previous field
     experience in ascertaining the lividity of humans. Moreover, the
     situation was witness by 18 others. I myself was present.

     Brian

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Note 310.39             Ethical questions for Christians               39 of 104
USDEV1::BPHANEUF "Brian Phaneuf, Consultant, UPO-1," 44 lines  19-JUN-1992 09:15
                    -< gee, i *wasn't* being ignored! 8^{] >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
       From:	DKAS::KOLKER       19-JUN-1992 09:10:21.56
       To:	USDEV::BPHANEUF
       CC:	
       Subj:	RE: Please check your mail. You have your RSVP

       I am trying to keep to the base note subject. If you wish to post my 
       answer, please do, you have my permission.

       CtL

DONE.



       From:	DKAS::KOLKER       19-JUN-1992 07:56:24.09
       To:	MELEE::BPHANEUF
       CC:	
       Subj:	response to your 310.21

       Brian,

       I don't have the foggiest idea of what condition this poor fellow was
       in. I wasn't there. I would not be all that surprised if there was a
       good recovery from a near death situation.  There are several
       conditions, talked of in the literature, where there is a subsidence
       of metabolism (catalepsy, I believe) and a near disappearance of heart
       beat and brain wave.

       The  question of what is physical death has undergone many revisions, 
       conditioned upon the technology of resuscitation. In the old days they
       used to hold a mirror under the patients nose to see if it would
       steam up. Now they look for brain waves. When a person "dies" or
       appears to "die" or really does die, the life functions do not cease
       all at once. There is still activity at the cellular level. Who knows
       how far subsidence and decomposition must go before any recovery is
       not possible (barring miracles, of course. Lazarus  and all that...).
       The last sentence on what is death has not yet been written by any
       means.

       I personally would keep an open mind on it, since in my own lifetime
       I have seen the technology go from steam on the mirror to zapping
       with the paddles. Who knows what tomorrow may bring?

       CtL

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Note 310.40             Ethical questions for Christians               40 of 104
USDEV1::BPHANEUF "Brian Phaneuf, Consultant, UPO-1," 47 lines  19-JUN-1992 09:26
                            -< how dead is "dead?" >-
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re: <<< Note 310.39 by USDEV1::BPHANEUF "Brian Phaneuf, Consultant, UPO-1, 296-4557" >>>
                   -< gee, i *wasn't* being ignored! 8^{] >-

     > I don't have the foggiest idea of what condition this poor fellow was in. 

     Dead enough to have experienced an out-of-body experience similar to
     those documented in other (near) death and revitalization
     circumstances. 

     > I wasn't there. 

     I was. What I have said is precisely what occurred. No second hand
     or hearsay evidence.

     > I would not be all that surprised if there was a good recovery from a
     > near death situation.  

     How near do you want? Post-embalming is asking a bit much, isn't it?

     > There are several conditions, talked of in the literature, where
     > there is a subsidence of metabolism (catalepsy, I believe) and a near
     > disappearance of heart beat and brain wave.

     Given that that is a *possible* explanation, would not recovery from
     such a circumstance *without* any medical assistance be extraordinary?

     > The question of what is physical death has undergone many revisions, 
     > conditioned upon the technology of resuscitation. 

     What if *no* physical resuscitation were involved. The proximate
     individuals simply prayed, apparently God intervened, and the victim
     (after some 10 minutes of no heartbeat and no breathing) revived with
     no apparent long-term damage?

     > When a person "dies" or appears to "die" or really does die, the life
     > functions do not cease all at once. There is still activity at the
     > cellular level. 

     Acknowledged. But neither does a body self-revitalize.

     > Who knows how far subsidence and decomposition must go before any
     > recovery is not possible (barring miracles, of course. Lazarus  and
     > all that...).

     Self-recovery?

     Brian

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Note 310.50             Ethical questions for Christians               50 of 104
DKAS::KOLKER "Conan the Librarian"                   22 lines  22-JUN-1992 11:55
                            -< Faith-1 != Faith-2 >-
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    reply priors (Brian)
    
    You mentioned a remarkable experience which you beheld "first hand".
    For me that is still second hand. Why? I do not know your gestallt. You
    may think you are telling me and I am sure you are trying, but your
    evaluation of the event of a death or near death experience was still
    seen through your eyes (not mine) and with your mind set (what ever that
    is, I will never know for sure, since I am not you). Like wise for
    affidavits from the past. I can only trust them so far. If someone of
    great integrity testifies to something completely outside my ken, I
    must still *doubt* it until I can get my hands on that experience. 
    
    This is quite different from the case of verifying a scientific result.
    Scientist A says I get such and such a result under the following
    circumstance. For such an assertion to count, he must supply with the
    instructions, so I can see it first hand. If it coincides , we may have
    something.  It is the difference between Faith-1 and Faith-2 again.
    Even if the confirmation is done by someone else, at least *in
    principle* I could do it first hand.
    

    My sister was healed of a brain tumor (medically documented) when she
    was in her senior year of high school.  She and my mother had already
    been out shopping for wigs when they did the final brain scan before
    scheduling the surgery, only to find that the tumor was gone.  God is
    truly wonderful.  It just takes the prayer of the believers, faith and
    the will of God for a healing to take place.  Oh, the love of Jesus is
    so wonderful.  My sister is 39, has three boys (all living for Jesus)
    and is married to a minister.  
    
    Love in Christ,
    Fran

    148.18  What a wonderful testimony!  Thank you for sharing it in this
    file!