Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Every one should.  Does God show favorites!
    
    E. Bontonovinchi
    

    If the Church believes in tithing then the leaders of the Church
    should set the pace.. Leaders are examples.

    Remember the woman at the templ Jesus spoke about? She, although poor,
    gave her ALL.
    
    The problem with defining what is the proper amount to give forces our
    giving to be a religious act rather than an act of love. Remember the
    rich young ruler who did all that was expected of him?
    
    God does not measure His love.
    
    Erwin

    Hi there,

    I recently taught a study on the book of Nehemiah, one of the
    topics we discussed was supporting the church and its ministries
    from a financial perspective.  In preparing for this discussion I
    read a number of scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments
    that talk about our giving.

    It's interesting that the New Testament is pretty much silent on
    the amount that we should give to support the church.

    I cannot remember all of the scripture references that I used in
    the study (my notes are at home).  One scripture that does spring
    to mind is in 1 Corinthians chapter 16

    " Now about the collection for God's people: Do what I told the
      Galatian churches to do.  On the first day of every week, each
      one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his
      income, saving it up, so that when I come no collection will
      have to be made." 1 Corinthians 16:1,2 (NIV)

    From a personal point of view, I like to be led by God in my
    giving.  I tithe a regular amount each month to my church, but I'm
    still open to direction from the Holy Spirit to additional giving
    to meet a specific need or as a "love offering".

    In Him,

    Graham

 There is a discussion of tithing in Christian_V6 topic 32, should anyone
 like to refer to it.

 This is an area where I believe I am coming under conviction.  I don't
 have chapter and verse with me, but I believe there is a promise from God
 associated with His commandment to return to Him 1/10 of our harvest, and I
 don't believe any church member is excluded, including leadership.  I know
 our Pastor and church leadership tithes, and I hear testimony after testimony
 from those who tithe about God fullfilling His promise.



 Jim

    
    This can be a contentious topic.  The New Covenant between God and man
    is in the person of Jesus Christ and is defined in the New Testament. 
    The one direct instruction given concerning an amount of money to give
    is: that a man should purpose in his heart what he is going to give and
    give it cheerfully, not under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful
    giver (jeff's paraphrase).  
    
    Why can't we accept this and then do it?  Is it because our churches
    are strapped for finances because their spending their money on
    buildings, salaries and all of the other money pits and then must
    revert to the law of tithing in order to pay for it?  This concerns me
    considerably.
    
    jeff

    !<<< Note 146.6 by USAT05::BENSON "God's Love's Still Changing Hearts" >>>
    
      Jeff,
        I tend to agree with you. I am a member of my church council. I have
    	bittery fought against gross expenditures an needless ventures.
        This has become wearisome. I would find it easier in my heart to
    	give more if my money was being spent on the Lord and not the 
    	world perception of the "lord's work". I find it difficult to buy
    	a new organ for my chruch in the name of the Lord's work, when a
    	guitar/piano/flute/arcapella would do as nicely IMHO.  What I give,
        I give cheerfully. I have set a sum aside and that is what I
        provide. When the need arises, I can and will provide more, but
        that is for me to cheerfully do. I do not appreciate a decree
        telling me if I do not tithe, I am not a good christian. Wether I
    	tithe or not is between God, Dani and myself, NOT the chruch.
    	Hence, I will pray not to be like Ananias and Sapphira either. I
    	will give honestly that which I can and not give falsely.
    
        I am troubled that churches in their trying to do good are so quick
    	to do harm to people's faith via their pocket book.
    
        PDM

In Christian_V6 Note 32 there was a *friendly* debate between myself and
Garth Wiebe over "Tithing - Biblical principle or Old Testament Law?"
This was a continuation of Christian_V5 Note 1184.

To try and summarize the two positions: one side says yes, tithing is a
Biblical principle, and the other says, no, the 10 percent fixture is a
legalism.

***Both sides agree that the principle of giving exists >in a right attitude<
toward God and the resources we own which are soley provided by Him.***

The principle line of thought that tithing is not part of the New Testament
experience is citesd in 2 Cor. 9:7.

The other camp contends this passage shows a specific offering that Paul is
talking about and not about the principle of giving back to God and that it
does not bear on the argument to abolish the tithe.

Feel free to exerpt any of the pertinent information.  A summary position 
on the principle of tithing is in the first 7 notes or so, after which 
Garth also summarizes the position he held.  I also know that Garth gives
permission to extract his replies in part or in whole.

    There are a number of scriptures even in the Bible that declares the
    firstfruits are to be given to God, the best part, not the leftovers. 
    Now, I don't recall a specific amount being said in these examples of
    harvest, but I do know that when we talk of first fruits, it's the best
    parts... which means "where my treasure is, there be my heart also".
    
    In regards to churches spending money ... I have to do a brief synopsis
    of how my church budgets.
    
    All tithing [as indicated on the envelope] is placed in the general
    fund, the general fund pays for the building costs, the salaries [which
    the church deacon board sets] and the work of the ministry.  It doesn
    not include organs, building projects, special events, etc.
    
    There are offerings [another word] taken for those.  
    
    The deacon board in my church presents every penny to be spent to the
    church family and it is voted on.  There is a full accounting at the
    end of our fiscal year... and I mean full... all the way down to how
    much was spent on toilet paper.
    
    Nancy

    Our minister once preached a sermon on giving a tenth of our time to
    the Church. She said that God didn't just mean financial tithing. 
    I was very challenged by this sermon.

I agree that the 1/10 number can become a burdensome legalism, if viewed the
wrong way.  And I agree that the church should not in any way be trying to
enforce tithing.

I see it as a guideline.  Yes, we should be giving cheerfully of what we have.
But if you're making $50,000 a year and "cheerfully" putting $5 in the offering
plate each week, that's not exactly what God had in mind.  At the other end 10% 
may be difficult to reach for someone living hand-to-mouth, although I've heard 
many testimonies of people who were blessed for tithing even when they thought 
it was impossible.

I've also seen some people contend that the 10% can artificially *reduce* the 
amount of giving below what it should be.  For someone like a sports figure 
making upwards of a million dollars a year, 10% just cuts out a few frills, 
leaving plenty of money for plenty of frills.  As Jesus pointed out with the
example of the woman who put in the small coins, God asks that we do more than
just give out of our surplus.

In my own case, the last straw that got me to tithe was actually a bit humorous.
On our stewardship Sunday we usually have someone who tithes give a testimony of
how they came to tithe and what the results have been since they began tithing.
This one year a Scottish woman in our congregation gave her testimony about
tithing.  One line just stuck to me, and convicted me:  "I have no trouble
believing that God parted the Red Sea or raised Jesus from the dead, but I've
had a lot of trouble believing that He wants me to give Him 10% of my money."

:-)

Paul

The legalism in giving is not only tied to the 10% number.  As some of you have
already stated, if I give cheerfully and feel that I have met the letter of the
law to give cheerfully, how are we different than the person who puts in one
tenth perfunctorily (out of habit, guilt, or just because)?  Non-adherents to
the 10% guideline can be as much or more legalistic than those who embrace the
principle of the tithe.

(Oh, and one nit: since tithe meand "tenth" let's not confuse a tithe with
an offering.  To say I give a 7 percent tithe is a conflict of terms.)

As you move from the OT to the NT, be aware that laws have been supercharged
so that we are to keep them in our heart attitudes; always getting MORE out 
of the law and NEVER less.  If you stay in the OT, be aware that it says that 
no one can keep all the law and only Christ frees us from it.  And if you 
live in the NT, also be aware that you are freed to do more by the attitude 
that brought the law into being.  For the law was an outward expression of
God's holiness, which is written now upon our hearts.

P.S. I tithe (and give offerings).  My testimony?  I have never lacked for
anything, but even this is meaningless if I have tithed for the wrong reasons.
God must be the first and foremost reason for doing everything, and on that
I am going to address my next point, in the next note.

Mark

I looked for a piece I wrote for my church's campaign, but I think 
it is on the PC at home.

In the short of it, if you give your money to a social institution, then
you are not giving your money to God.

In my church, the church board is an elected body to govern the business
of the church, which include designating monies for various things.  I may
not agree with everything they choose to spend the money on.

But, you know what?  It isn't YOUR money they're spending.  Did you give
it to the church or to God?  If to God, then they have their responsibility
of stewardship of that money - YOU NO LONGER DO!  If to the church, then
by all means, tell the board what they should and should not be doing;
tell them what God's will is.

Our responsibility in stewardship ENDS when the money passes out of our
hands for God's work.  The people who then have the money have THEIR 
responsibility to God to use that money for his purpose.  Why compound
error by withholding from God because YOU feel that it is not being spent
for God's purpose.  If you feel that strongly, put your tithe (or offering)
where you KNOW God wants it, but be very sure of it.  

It is my personal belief that the local church organization is the instrument
that God can used (in pooled resources).  It is not always as well-managed as
*I* would like to see, and sometimes it is taken advantage of in scandal here
and there.  But I have ONE responsibility with my resources - use them as God
directs.  For me, this INCLUDES tithing and supporting the functioning of
my local church regularly.

Mark

In order to understand tithing you have to look at the two priest hoods that
have existed since the days of the patriarchs.  One is the levitical
priesthood and the other is the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek.

I will start with the levitical priesthood.  When God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt he appointed Aaron, moses' brother and his descendants to
server him.  Because they were to serve him they were not given any land.
This was an agricultural society, and having no land meant that you did not
eat.  God gave a tenth of all that was produced to the Levites as their
share in the land for serving him.  That is, all the people were to give a
tenth of what they produced to God -- for the Levites.  Above the regular
tithe was free will offerings to God, as your means would allow.  But the
first tithe (there is a second and a third) was holy to the Lord and was a
command, not a choice!  You can find first tithe in numbers 18:8.

The next question is, "Wasn't this abolished with the new covenant?" The
answer is found with the priesthood in the order of Melchizedek, Hebrews 7.
It shows that the priesthood of Aaron was not to be permanent, but that the
order of Melchizedek was to be everlasting.  Christ (Melchizedek) is our
high priest now.  Notice it doesn't say anything about abolishing the
priesthood, it has just changed from the order of Aaron to the order of
Melchizedek.  Tithing has not been abolished.  Note Heb 7:2.  Before the
Levitical priesthood Abraham gave the current priesthood (the order of
Melchizedek) his tithe.  The order of Melchizedek was in existence before
the Levitical priesthood.

I also wanted to comment on Heb 7:18.  "The former regulation is set
aside...." This verse is speaking about the ceremonial law that Moses
instituted, not the law, or tithing, Heb 9:10.

The most compelling verse for tithing is found in Mal 3:8 - "Will a man rob
God?  Yet you rob me.  But you ask, "How do we rob you?" In tithes an
offerings.  You are under a curse -- the whole nation of you, because you
are robbing me.  Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may
be food in my house.  Test me in this, "says the Lord Almighty," and see if
I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing
that you will not have room enough for it."

He says to test him in this. Take him up on this offer.
    
    'Carl

                             The Joy of Giving

  I am a third generation Nazarene.  While that doesn't mean much to you,
  what it has meant to me is a training in such things as tithing and
  stewardship from an early age.

  My first job as a paperboy enabled me to have some spending money and I
  was encouraged from the start to put a tenth in the offering plate.  At
  the time, it was pennies, but a tenth nonetheless.

  Establishing the habit made it relatively easy for me to continue tithing
  as my jobs got better and I got paid more.  Having always lived on the
  nine-tenths quite comfortably, I really have never known what it is to
  struggle, like the struggle some of you have with giving up a tenth of
  your income after already trying (and possibly failing) to make ends meet
  on your ten-tenths.

  Many of us cannot understand the joy of giving because it has not been a
  part of our lives.

  Can there actually be joy in giving our money away?  In a short answer:
  yes.  In a longer answer:  you cannot find this joy until your will is
  submitted to the Lord, no matter how much you already may be giving.

  Making the decision to tithe may cause you to examine the things on which
  you spend your money.  The Lord may prune a few things out of your life
  to "make your ends meet."  You will learn about the things that are
  essential and the things that are not essential; you will learn about
  what you have a grasp on, and what has a grasp on you.

  I can stand here and tell you that it won't make you a pauper.  You will
  discover that you can do better on the nine-tenths than you can on the
  ten-tenths, but I know *it all seems like nonsense*, until it is
  experienced with a yielded heart.

  Having said that, I would like to speak to *those of us who are giving*.
  Some of us may be giving out of habit alone; some may be giving
  grudgingly; and still others may have cut back on their giving for one
  reason or another.

  Going way back to the very first offering, in Genesis Chapter 4, we see
  two brothers bringing their offering to the Lord.  Please note: *both*
  brought their offerings; one was acceptable to God and the other was not.
  Why?  It was in Abel's heart to being to God his firstfruits.  His
  attitude was right with God.  Cain's attitude was not right.  The Bible
  says Cain became angry when his offering was not accepted by God.  (One
  might smirk and say that the church will always accept our money, but
  that is not my point as you will soon see.) And by the way, God offered
  to accept a sacrifice from Cain, if it was given with the right attitude.

  You see, it is not just important that we give our money.  We need to
  give our money for the right reasons.

  Now, I know that is a tall order for some of us.  You might say, "God,
  giving 10 percent is tough enough to swallow; I have to like it, too?"
  I'm not talking about liking it;  I'm talking about doing it because God
  is the Almighty and Eternal God.  (God is God.) And He has asked us only
  for a token of what He has already given us, *to acknowledge Him as the
  Provider of all we own.*  We thank the Lord at mealtime for His
  Providence.  Tithing is another acknowledgment of His Providence.  It is
  the fruit of our faith.

  I am confident that with a heart that it prepared and yielded to God in
  your giving, you WILL experience the joy of giving.  Why?  Because it
  then becomes something given back *to God* in gratitude for His grace and
  mercy towards us (not to mention His blessings).  *Do not give your money
  simply to keep a social organization running.*

  If you give your money, or withhold it, because you see it as giving to
  an institution or organization of men and women, I humbly ask you to
  re-examine your heart.  The Church is an extension of our Lord.  We are
  His body of believers.

  It is true that the church organization is administered by people, (yes,
  even imperfect people, which includes you and me), and the stewardship of
  the leaders is an important responsibility of leadership.  However, allow
  the leadership to be responsible to God for *their* responsibilities, and
  you and I can be responsible to God for *our* responsibilities.

  Too often, we get caught up in how another is giving or not giving; how
  another is exemplifying a Christian life, or shaming it.  Christianity is
  a personal relationship with Almighty God.  In John 21:21-22, Peter asks
  Jesus, "Lord, what about him?"  Jesus responds, "What is that to you?
  You must follow Me."  We have one primary responsibility!  Follow God!

  We collect the tithes and offering to support the ministries of this
  church; to support those who minister, and those to whom they minister,
  and those who minister to people all over the world.  We collect the
  tithes and offerings to pool our resources in a collective effort to meet
  the needs of the church, the community, and the mission field.  That's
  what happens to your money when it passes from your hands into the hands
  of the Trustees, Stewards, Department Heads, and Pastors.

  BUT!  Stewardship for you and me is NOT what happens AFTER that money is
  out of your hands; stewardship for you and me is what happens in our
  heart towards the resources in our charge BEFORE it becomes invested.  We
  are each given talents and we will invest them in in either  the world of
  in the kingdom.  For what happens in our heart determines how we will use
  our resources and whether or not our offering is acceptable in God's
  sight.

  Do you know why there is joy ion my giving?

  It is because I give to The Lord, in Whom I delight, Who loved me enough
  to give everything for me.

  Mark Metcalfe
  Delivered, January 24,1993
  Lowell Church of the Nazarene

he Little Red Hen went to her friends.  She was going to make some
bread.  "Who will help me plant the wheat?" she asked.

"Not I" said the pig.  "I'm busy in my mud bath."
"Nor I," said the duck. "I have preening to do."
"Not I," said the dog who gave no excuse.

(Most of you know the story so I will condense it).

"Who will help me harvest the wheat?"
"Not I," said the pig.
"Not I," said the duck.
"Not I," said the dog.

"Who will help me take my wheat to the mill?"
"Not I," said the pig.
"Not I," said the duck.
"Not I," said the dog.

"Who will help me bake the bread?
"Not I," said the pig.
"Not I," said the duck.
"Not I," said the dog.

When the bread was baking, that wonderful aroma wafted through the air
and the Little Red Hen said, "Who will help me eat the bread?"

"I will!" said the pig.
"I will!" said the duck.
"I will!" said the dog.

"No, you wont!" said the Little Red Hen.  "This bread is for me and my
chicks.  For I did the work and I shall eat the bread."

------------

How often do we come to church to be fed with the Bread of life?
Yet our giving is something akin to playing in a mud bath, preening
one's feathers into the right place, or simply giving nothing with
no excuse at all?

And I'm not talking about only money, though that is a part of the need
to continue the work of the church.  The Bible says that in heaven, crowns
will be given out, and that we can store up treasures in heaven.  (I wonder
on what we'll spend treasure?  I think no one will lack, yet there must
be an economy.)  That's food for thought for those of us who plan on
"making it by the skin of our teeth."  But to the pig, the duck, and the dog,
it may be another sad story - cut off from the Bread of Life.

You cannot do anything to earn your way into heaven, but a changed heart
is a heart of service and stewardship.

>I have little quarrel with my brethren who feel the number 10 is not
>as relevant as this spirit of giving (because I feel they apply the spirit
>of the law which envelops the letter of the law).  I would have quarrel
>with anyone who felt the spirit of giving meant they could do less than
>the tenth because of the scriptural standard set out before, during, and
>after the law.
-------------------------
>The OT is not negated by the NT but it is made full (fulfilled) by the NT.
-------------------------
>Now what is this principle of giving that both Garth and I have supported,
>though we have come from different directions on this point?
>
>The tithe was to be the top portion [the pick of the heap, says the
>amplified Bible in Heb. 7].  Why?
>
>The principle of the tithe is to give back to God a tenth of the 100%
>that he provides for us so that we (a) demonstrate our love to God by
>(b) relying upon God and not "our own" wealth for our sustanence.
>"Consider the lillies of the field, they neither toil nor spin and
>yet Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these." And
>not a sparrow falls to the ground by God sees it.
>
>If we do not give God "off the top" we give God the remainder, not trusting
>God to provide.
-------------------------
>Beware that a tithe given out of a wrong attitude is an unacceptible
>sacrifice.  Instead, the tithe is recognition of reliance and dependence
>on God in which we demonstrate our faith and love in him.
-------------------------
>The spirit of giving is something that goes beyond the tithe, and I am
>convinced that the sincere mature Christian who walks closely and daily
>with God knows that 100% of what they own and are belong to God and as
>such they are more free with "their" resources, which, I am confident,
>amounts to more than the top ten percent.

    As far as I'm concerned, a "tenth" is just the *starting* point.  
    
    Steve

Malachi talks directly to this subject
(Mal 1:6-15 & Mal 3:6-18) and many others
that Gods people seem to have recurring
problems with.
			Hope this helps...JimG

    ...and the whole Old Testament contains many different tithes that
    nobody observes today, but we went all through this in the last version
    of the conference.

    I have just read through this string and felt compelled to stick in my
    twopence worth (two cents worth for my American bretheren). My outlook
    on tithing, which I believe is grounded in Scripture is that all
    believers are called to tithe as a minimum. We should also give
    offerings on top of our tithes aas God provides for us out of His
    goodness.
    
    God also calls us to tithe our time, which I personally find harder to
    do than tithing money. 
    
    I do not always use my own Church as the vehicle for my giving but
    tend to look for the best way to use my stewardship of what He has
    provided. TEAR FUND being one of my "favourite" ways.
    
    I don't know if I have added anything to what has already been said but
    there it is.
    
    Bill 

    I heard a teaching on KFAX (Christian station here) that in the Old
    Testament only ten percent "belonged" to God, but the New Testament
    said 100% belongs to God.  Therefore, one, from what I could understand
    from the teaching, tithes according to what they can, which could be
    even much more than 10%.  If one can not afford 1/10th, don't feel
    guilty.                  
    
    

Matthew 22:21  They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render
therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things
that are God's.

Hi, Grace.  No doubt you will recognise Jesus' words above.

If the New testament says that 100% belongs to God, why would Jesus
say that anything belongs to Caesar?

When Jesus was questioned about the temple tax, he asked whether it 
was right for the King's family to pay "tribute."

Matthew 17
 24  And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money
came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
 25  He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him,
saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take
custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
 26  Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the
children free.
 27  Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and
cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast
opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto
them for me and thee.

If 100% belongs to God, which is right and true because he is a fool who
thinks he owns anything beyond his own choice, then what one can afford
is nothing, because it isn't ours to give in the first place.

But it is ours to manage as good stewards.  I believe that 100% belonged to
God inthe Old Testament, even though only 10% was the amount He asked
to give back to him for OUR benefit, not His.

Do you think God needs 10 percent of our income?  Do you think God needs
100% of it?  Nope!  God doesn't need one red cent from us.  Tithing is
for our benefit, not His.

Mark

    Mark, Yes it all belongs to Jesus and we are only stewards.  Agreed.
    
    

I was thinking about "not affording" things on the way to work, as a reason
to give less.  I thought that I could not judge someone who made less money
than I because perhaps I did not know the struggles of someone who had less 
money (wealth).

Then I thought that when I was first married, I made $7500/year (1979)
and tithed on it.

I thought of someone who said that $33,000 wasn't enough to support his
family and that he'd be out on the streets if he didn't get a raise soon.
This person had cable TV and lot of other "things" that had I his budget,
I could have cut out enough to deal with life (and tithe).

You see, as stewards of all there is, we make lots of choices from
the toilet paper we buy to the mortgage on the house.  And we have lots 
of freedom with the resources in our possession.  One doesn't *HAVE* to 
buy a second-hand car when they have the choice to buy a new one.  
And just because one may spend more money on a new car (as opposed to
a used car) doesn't mean the money was misspent.

But the point is that "affording" something is a very subjective matter.
Add to this God's economy that says you can live better on 90% than
you can on 100% (for very practical reasons, I might add), and the
idea that tithe is sometimes not affordable is backwards to me.

As I said in a previous note, tithing is for our benefit, not God's.
When one tithes, one budgets, one has a new perspective on "things"
and their value - why?  Because tithe is the FIRST tenth - God comes 
FIRST.  And the tithe is acknowledgment to God that He does indeed come
first in our lives.  When we put God first, and seek His kingdom and
His righteousness, God promises that "all these things" will be added unto 
you.  In other words, if we get one priority straight, then all other
priorities will fall into line.

Mark

� Matthew 22:21  
� They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto 
� Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

The fascinating part (to me ;-) has the key a couple of verses previously:

Matthew 18 ... 19, 20
 ... Jesus .... said ... "Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto
 him a penny.  And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and 
 superscription?"

Idolatry was, of course, utterly offlimits.  As was the making of images.
The Roman coinage had the image of Caesar on it, and thus an observant Jew
would not use it.  So Jesus had to ask for one to be brought. 

The image on it showed who it belonged to.

The image *we* bear shows Who we belong to. The Jews well knew that they
were made in the image of God, even if many others have forgotten it. 

"Render therefore .... unto God the things that are God's"

Doesn't just mean our money.  It means ourselves.

Our allegiance, our time, our strength, our attention, our love .... 

The money He entrusts us with to do His work here, is just another of His 
possessions, which we administer.  We need to know His approval and 
participation in what we do with it....  No need for hang-ups in any 
direction.  It is our privilege to give .... remember Exodus 35:29,36:3-7, 
which starts with an invitation to bring freewill offerings, and ends with 
"...the people were restrained from bringing more, because what they 
already had was more than enough to do all the work".  That's giving from 
the heart.

						God bless
								Andrew

    Mark,
    
    Thanks for the blessing I received and encouragement from your note. 
    
    An interesting story told by a visiting Pastor about tithes and
    offerings.  This Pastor had a guest speaker who spoke on the difference
    of believing *in* God and *believing* God.
    
    He asked all those who believe God can provide all your needs, stand
    up.  Well, just about the whole audience stood up.
    
    "All those who believe God can provide all your needs even though you
    give a portion of your money to God, remain standing."  Believe it 
    or not some folks sat down.
    
    "All those who believe God can provide all your needs even if you were
    to double your giving, remain standing."  Only the Pastor and a few
    people remained standing.
    
    This Pastor confessed he didn't want to remain standing, but he was the
    Pastor, he had to remain standing... But then he went home and talked
    to his wife and proposed that they double their giving to the church. 
    Praise God for godly women, she followed his lead, though she had her
    own doubts and fears she didn't voice them, she followed her husband. 
    
    His testimony is that you cannot out give God.  His *needs* have been
    met, not his desires, not his wants... but his family has drawn closer
    to God and his church has grown as his faith has increased as a result.
    
    Now, I don't know about you... but I'm sitting down right now. :-)
    
    May God give me the courage to step out in faith and allow Him to be
    God and believe Him, not just believe *in* Him.
    
    Nancy

Heard in church yesterday:

  One Sunday, a younger Billy Graham and his wife were sitting in church,
and as the offering plate was passed, Billy tossed a $10 bill into the
plate and passed it to his wife.  But then he realized that he wanted to
put the $5 bill in the plate and reached into the plate to retrieve his
$10 bill.  
  His wife slapped his hand and said, "What are you doing?"  
  "I meant to put in the five dollar bill, instead" he responded.
  "Don't worry, Billy," replied his wife as she passed the plate on,
"It was a five dollar bill to the Lord."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa!

    Re: .28
    
    Now I know why Billy Graham's ministry has been so blessed. :-)
    
    Mark L.