Conference yukon::christian_v7

Paul, 

Much of what you put, I can go along with, but there's a solid Rock basis, 
which it doesn't quite reach...

� [Faith] is taking the step to commit yourself to that which you believe.
 - ie acting on belief, which proves that you really *do* believe the 
   unprovable.

I can also agree that 'having faith' does not imply violating the mind
which He gave us, but we also need to realise that the mind is not the
logically invincible standard we were taught in college.  Not because we 
unhinge it, but because we realise a greater truth, within which it has to 
operate.

� And as I did so, I became more and more convinced that He was who He said
� He was.  I came to the point where the balance of evidence said that He
� really was the Lord, though there were still doubts. 

The realisation that He *is* the LORD goes hand-in-hand with the honour of 
the Word.  

From early on, some things in the Bible, I've had to say "I don't
understand how this can be - either self consistent, or consistent with my
understanding of the world around, etc.".  But I *know* that the *whole*
Bible is written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and my 
understanding is flawed.  In time, He may grant me more understanding.  
Meanwhile, I have to leave it with Him, not arguing that black is white, 
but that there's something more yet for me to understand here.  One thing I 
cannot question is the sanctity and total accuracy of the Bible as given.  
Once any part of that is in question, my mind is being given more respect 
than God is; the foundation is being attacked, and I have no reliable basis 
to stand upon.  'God' replaced by 'me'....

"Why this should be so" is a question which has interested me, as well as 
the answers to some questions [ which have revealed not only the factual 
accuracy of the Word, and the presumption of mankind who rejects it ].

God is primarily interested in our spiritual development.  Our love for 
Him, and our being conformed to His image.  To trust Him through the 
impossible, and find it comes true doesn't just change our mind and 
understanding; it expands our perception of Him, and our love for Him is 
multiplied, as He takes us through things we could not face alone.

Teaching us to trust beyond mere credibility, and into the miraculous.  5
bread rolls and 2 small fish don't feed 5,000 people.  Indisputable fact. 
If I were entertaining a crowd there's no way that I would think of
providing that little.  And if He were to say I had to do just that, I 
*know* He can.  It woudn't be the first time.  but it would for me, and I 
know my hands would be shaking and my heart be in my mouth (one appetite 
easily satisfied!), but would I take that step?  Or calling a dead person 
back to life ?  Uh....  But they're child's play compared with getting my
soul into heaven.  It's just that the visible evidence is lacking.  Like
Jesus used the - relatively - trivial healing in Luke 5:24-25 to
demonstrate His power to forgive sins, in Luke 5:20.

If I hope for the biggest promise of all to be realised 
		which it *** will ***
I have no doubt about any of the Word He has spoken into the hearts and
minds of people prepared by Him to receive and record it as the only hope
for salvation for all of mankind.... 

My understanding can wait,  His integrity is NOT in question.

Even there, I suppose there's a firming up of faith to arrive at that 
position, but in principle it must exist from the earliest glimpse of His 
magnitude.

						God bless
								Andrew

    re .0
    Check your mind at the front door
    
    
    Josh McDowell has a "retreat like" 4 video series program called -Don't
    check your brains at the front door.  This is made for youth groups and
    he has a book with about 30 or so 2-4 page chapters on experiences from
    himself and Bob Hostetler.  It is good and simple reading.  A lot of it
    is based on his book "Evidence that demands a verdict"
    
    
    Robert

	Paul, I just wrote basically the same thing in the Inerrancy note. I
hope it helps you understand where I am coming from.



Glen

I'm trying to keep the Biblical part of this separate from the faith part, so I
answered part of this over in the "Biblical Inerrancy" note.

> One thing I 
> cannot question is the sanctity and total accuracy of the Bible as given.  

I get very worried about a concept of faith that cannot raise questions.  It is
from this sort of unquestioned acceptance that cults are born.

Our God is a God of truth, and He can hold His own in an arena of open and 
honest questions.  He will certainly tire of being asked the same questions by
us over and over when He's already given us an answer that we perhaps don't
like, but He will never shrink from answering our honest questions.

If you have been convinced of the sanctity and total accuracy of the Bible, then
you are right not to bring up that question again unless new evidence presents
itself.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask the question in the first place
to become convinced.

Paul

    Some of what is being described here is what I think of as "blind
    faith."  That is, blind faith is faith without questioning.  Faith, on
    the other hand, is hope in what one learns about God.  Hope is a wish 
    with expectation that the wish may be fulfilled.  Thus, faith is a wish 
    and expectation that the things one learns about God are true.  I do
    not ascribe to the Confucious method of learning; the teacher teaches
    and is not questioned.  Christ taught and responded to questions, so by
    His example I understand that it is proper for one to question.  The
    requirement of "blind faith" (or unquestioning wishes and expectations)
    by a belief system seems to me to be wrong and I would have no part in
    such a system.
    
    Steve

Hmmmm... I realised afterwards that I was overlapping the areas some.  
Sorry.  I'll have the mods onto me if I'm not more careful ;-)


�> ..I cannot question the sanctity and total accuracy of the Bible as given...
� I get very worried about a concept of faith that cannot raise questions.  
� It is from this sort of unquestioned acceptance that cults are born.

I guess I answered this one in 53, rather than here.  The reason I can't 
question the Bible is because I see God there.  That element of faith is a 
Rock which at first may have appeared indistinct through the mist, but as I 
got closer, it took shape more and more clearly, and delighted my heart 
with its reality.  That faith is so tangible, it amounts to certainty.

[ see you over there too, Glen? ]

Also 'over there' in 53, I hinted some at what I understand to be the 
reason for the conflict - it's to build eternal value, rather than temporal 
obesity.

� If you have been convinced of the sanctity and total accuracy of the Bible, 
� then you are right not to bring up that question again unless new evidence 
� presents itself.  But that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask the question in the
� first place to become convinced.
No problem with asking questions.  It's how they're asked, and who we ask 
them from that's critical.  We ask with open hearts, ready for His answer 
to be that He has a lot of other things to teach us first.  Like Job, who 
in one sense belaboured God with his distress, but even so, was careful to 
protect the area of sanctity, so that he was accepted, where his 'friends' 
failed...


Steve, 

� I do not ascribe to the Confucious method of learning; the teacher teaches
� and is not questioned.  Christ taught and responded to questions, so by
That is not what I am advocating.  The critical point is the preeminence 
given to the different factors:

'Higher criticism' starts with the premis that the Bible is ordinary 
literaure; the work of men, and subject to man's value judgement.  It 
leaves no room for God, and engenders a 'liberal' religion, which is the 
product of man's fallen intellect, bending the Bible into what he wants.
ie, it puts the mind as higher than the Bible, in contradiction to the 
basis of this conference.

'Lower criticism' starts with the premis that the Bible is inspired by God, 
and to be explored on that basis.  
Questions are  "How do I reconcile these?" 
rather than :  "These diosagree according to my understanding, so I reject 
		that section, level of integrity, etc"

All the time recognising that the Author *has* answers, even if it's not 
the time to reveal them (cf Daniel 12:4,9)

Also, Steve,

I do not see your descriptions as embodying 'faith', or even Biblical 'hope'.

� Faith ... is hope in what one learns about God.  
No.  It is a deep seated confidence and awareness that God's promises are 
certainties which *will* be fulfilled.  I see the witness of His perfection 
all around me in creation.  I am aware of the truth of Him living within
me, even while I am a fallen creature - amazing!  He *was*, *is* and *will
be* faithful to His promised Word. 

Remember - it's a *certainty* - Hebrews 11:1
 - my heart *knows* He's true.

� Hope is a wish with expectation that the wish may be fulfilled.
That is the modern definition of hope, *not* the Biblical one.  
Biblical 'hope' would today be better translated 'anticipation'.

Consider Colossians 1:27

 "God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of
  this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" 

 "God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of
  this mystery, which is Christ in you, the anticipation of glory" 

It's so real....

							love
								Andrew

    re: .6
    
    My definition of faith is compatible not only with Paul's statement,
    (as well as with my understandings of Heb. 11:27; 2 Cor. 5:7; 1 Pet. 
    1:8; Jn. 1:12;, Gal. 3:26; 1 Jn. 4:7-21; Js. 2: 14-24; 1 Jn. 3:16-18; 
    Jn. 3:15,16,36; Jn. 11:25; Rom. 5:1; Rom. 9:30; Gal. 2: 16; Mt. 9:22; 
    Mk. 10:52; Lk. 7:50; Lk. 17:19; Ac. 3:16; Ac. 14:9; Ac. 16:31; Rom. 
    10:9; Eph. 2:8; 1 Pet. 1:9; Jn. 5:44; Jn. 12:39, 40, 43) but also with 
    TAHD.  So, I don't fully understand how it is not "Biblical."  
    
    As for "hope," I am using the definition from TAHD almost word for word.  
    So, I can understand where this might not be thought to be "Biblical"
    since it is based on the commonly accepted definition.  My impression
    is that "faith" is not as easily understood commonly because it is more
    generally attached to a religion than is "hope,"  according to the
    definitions for these words in TAHD.  But, if there is a problem with my 
    definition of hope not being "Biblical" then that may be a problem more
    related to using a standard and generally accepted reference for English 
    words like TAHD where such words as "hope" do not have religious 
    connotations.
    
    Steve

I'd like to expand the question just a little so that I
can give a more definite answer.

	What is faith in God?

Faith in God consists of 3 things:

  1) Believing that God is a God of integrity (that He
     will keep His Word)

  2) Believing that God is able to do what He says

  3) Believing the promise(s) that God made

The third point is the critical point.  Why do we believe that
we will be "saved"?  Because *God promised it*!  He told us
that if we accept Him by faith (i.e. follow Him and believe
His promises), that we would be justified and spend eternity
with Him.

Everything we believe that God will do should stem from a promise
of God.  We can certainly *ask* for things that God has not
promised us - but we are fools to believe that God is bound to
do what we want.  It happens every day, every hour, every minute
that something that someone asked God for did *not* come about.
We are to ask, yes,  But we are only to believe that God will
fulfill our request if God has promised to (either by a promise
in the past [recorded in Scripture] or a revelation from God
that He will keep this promise).

Is it really that easy to understand?  I believe it is.

Collis

Hi Steve,

I don't think you can have gone through the verses you cite on faith.  They
aren't all definitive, and certainly not specific on the issues you
mention.  I can certainly use them to support my perspective... 

I'm not familiar with TAHD, as I usually use an English one.  And 'hope' in
the Biblical sense has an exeptional dimension of difference with common
usage. 

							God bless
								Andrew

A verse of note (right in the middle of the "faith"
chapter in Hebrews):

  And without faith it is impossible to please God,
  because anyone who comes to him must believe that he
  exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek
  him.

Why is faith dependent on believing in the reward?
Because this is what GOD PROMISED!  God is there and
God will fulfill his promises.  That is what faith in
God is all about.

Collis

.8>Everything we believe that God will do should stem from a promise
.8>of God.

Well said, Collis.  This is the evidence I spoke of earlier in another
topic.  Proof of infinity is impossible, but evidence of the Infinite (God)
interacting with the finite (us) can be made sure through the keeping or
breaking of a promise.

.10> Collis

I had Hebrews 11:6 all loaded up and ready to go!  if I may add:

>  And without faith it is impossible to please God,
>  because anyone who comes to him must believe that he
>  exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek
>  him.

Here again we see the two fundamental questions in this passage: "Does God
exist?" and "What is God like?"  The passage doesn't seek to prove God.
The Bible does not seek to prove God.  It's authors plainly already
believed that God existed.  The Bible does tell us what God thinks we
need to know about Him to know what He requires of us - "to do justly, 
and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God." (Micah 6:8)

Faith is not PROOF of God, but it is knowing for certainty; believing with
conviction that God exists.  And Hebrews 11:6 comes with a promise:
God will reward those who earnestly (or dilligently) seek Him.  Reward
them with what?  With what they seek:

Isaiah 55:6  Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while
he is near:

Jeremiah 29:14  And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn
away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all
the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you
again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Faith is not proof of God, but neither is it without evidence, or dilligent
seeking after God (instead of seeking after ways to *disprove* God, which is 
like looking everywhere something isn't to prove that it doesn't exist).

Mark

Hebrews 11:1  Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of
things not seen.
  2  For by it the elders obtained a good report.
  3  Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of
God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
  4  By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by
which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts:
and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
  5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not
found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this
testimony, that he pleased God.
  6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to
God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently
seek him.
  7  By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with
fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned
the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
  8  By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he
should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing
whither he went.
  9  By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country,
dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same
promise:
 10  For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker
is God.
 11  Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and
was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him
faithful who had promised.
 12  Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as
the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore
innumerable.
 13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having
seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and
confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
 14  For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
 15  And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they
came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
 16  But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore
God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a
city.
 17  By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had
received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
 18  Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
 19  Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from
whence also he received him in a figure.
 20  By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
 21  By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph;
and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
 22  By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the
children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
 23  By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents,
because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's
commandment.
 24  By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son
of Pharaoh's daughter;
 25  Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to
enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
 26  Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in
Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.
 27  By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he
endured, as seeing him who is invisible.
 28  Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he
that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
 29  By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the
Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
 30  By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about
seven days.
 31  By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when
she had received the spies with peace.
 32  And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon,
and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and
of the prophets:
 33  Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained
promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
 34  Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of
weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies
of the aliens.
 35  Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were
tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better
resurrection:
 36  And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of
bonds and imprisonment:
 37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with
the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute,
afflicted, tormented;
 38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in
mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
 39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not
the promise:
 40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us
should not be made perfect.
*****************************************************************************
Hebrews 12:1  Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a
cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so
easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
  2  Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy
that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set
down at the right hand of the throne of God.

    re: .7
    
    Of course I didn't go through all the verses, which is why I point out
    that I lifted them from my Bible dictionary.  But, I *could* go through
    them all and show that they are compatible with my statement of what
    faith is.  (I've certainly read them all a few times.)  The point is
    that my viewpoint is defendable from a "Biblical" point of view, as I
    assume yours is.  And, that ends up being a rathole because you and
    I (and others) interpret the Bible differently.
    
    TAHD is "The American Heritage Dictionary" which is (was) issued to
    Digital employees on this side of the pond.  The reason for using it is
    to help establish common ground in the use of English.  After all, part
    of the issue is the definition of words.  By using a common definition
    as a basis it is possible for folks to communicate.  But, if words have
    different meanings to different folks the communication breaks down.
    
    It is tempting to try to say, "we'll use the definition of these words
    as used in the Bible."  For some words this may work out well.  But,
    for others it does not because different words are used in the same
    passages depending on which version of a Bible is used.  It's pretty
    hard to establish definitions for such words that all can agree upon 
    when even the words themselves are not used consistently between
    different versions of the Bible.  So, I applied TAHD as well as the
    Bible (KJV) in trying to nail down a definition of faith and hope.
    
    Steve

Hi Steve, 

    I know TAHD (though I had to think.. ;-), but was just pointing out 
    that I don't use it.  Actually, given the basis of our documentation, 
    I think we 'over here' need it more than you do ;-)

    The reason for my singling out 'hope' like that is precisely because in 
    the Bible, it is different from common usage.  If I get time to look it 
    up...

								Andrew

    re: .14
    
    Sure!  I look forward to reading what you find!  :)
    
    Steve

This is a good question, thanks for asking it.

The biblical language for faith is found in Hebrews 11. This is the "faith"
chapter, because it offers the definition of faith (thanks for typing it in
a few notes back!):

Heb 11:1 - "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we
do not see." NIV

You can see from this verse that faith and hope are tied together. You have
to understand both in order to understand either one or the other.

First hope. How the bible uses the word hope is not the same as we use the
word hope in today's english. The definition according to the American
Heritage dictionary is, "To desire with some confidence of fulfillment."
One of the previous notes mentioned, and I will use my own words here,
"wishfull thinking". Neither hope nor faith is wishful thinking,
the bible uses hope differently. This is illustrated by Acts 24:14-15,
"I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the
Prophets, and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be
a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."

Our hope lies in the resurrection and our anticipation of the kingdom of
God in it's fullness. We have all read the end of the story, and it is a
*sure* thing. Hope in the bible is anticipation of what we know that God
will bring about, that is, the kingdom in it's fullness, resurrected in
God's kingdom, otherwise our faith would be dead. I'm trying to keep this
short so I won't go any futher. There are more verses.

Faith is best illustrated by the story of Hezekiah in 2 Kings 18. Briefly,
the king of Assyria sent Sennacherib to destroy Jerusalem.  He spoke to the
people on the wall just prior to the siege. When Hezekiah heard what he said,
he went an prayed to God to deliver him. This is what he said to Isaiah,
2 Kings 19:4- "It may be that the Lord your God will hear all the words of
the field commander, whom this master, the king of Assyria, has sent to
ridicule the living God, and that he will rebuke him for the words that Lord
your God has heard. Therefore pray for the remenant that still survives."
Notice he used the word "may". Here was the King who had the most faith out
of all the kings of Judah, and he was not sure whether God would deliver him.
But he knew that God had the power to do so. God did deliver him. He put to
death 185,000 soldiers. Read the whole story. It is great!

From the story, you can see that Faith in the bible is closer to today's
word for trust. But specifcally, trust in God.

So I offer the following: Hope is the sure knowledge that Christ will return
to establish his kingdom, and that we will be resurrected from the dead and
be given eternal life. And faith is our trust that God has the power to bring
what we hope for to reality. Today you can be just has confident, because God's
promise still stands.

'Carl

  Hi All,

    I am surprised (shocked actually) that what I consider to be the
    main definer of faith was completely absent from virtually every
    reply or (at best) mentioned in an oblique sort of way.

    And that is the love of God.

    Hypothetically speaking, I can perhaps love orange juice and go
    to an orange juice machine, drop in 50 cents and get my orange
    juice.  I can do this a thousand times and let's assume the machine
    NEVER fails.  It delivers that orange juice every time.  I may 
    come to a point after 'testing my faith' that I would have perfect
    faith in that machine to deliver what I want.

    In all the previous replies, I do not see the definition of faith
    as differing one iota from the 'faith' I might have in that orange
    juice machine which provides what I hope to receive.

    I see a disconnect here whose departure from what true faith really
    is as proportional in magnitude to how much the character of God
    differs from the character of the above orange juice machine.  Of
    course, this departure in understanding is infinite.  (Faith is
    something we understand in proportion to our understanding of God's
    love.  It rides a continuum.

    The most important component of faith is found in Galatians 5:5,6.

    For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteoussness by
    faith,
    For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth anything, nor
    uncircumcision; but ***faith which worketh by love [agape]***.

    And as found in John 3:16
    
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
    whosoever ***believeth*** in him, should not perish, but have ever-
    lasting life.

    Faith works by love, God's love and it is a response to God's love
    which (in part) is revealed and manifested by God's _giving_ of
    Himself in His Son.

    The degree to which we think of faith in the context of merely trusting
    that we will get something (and not in the context of something which
    is a response to being blown away by God's character of love) is pro-
    portional to the extent to which our walk is centered on 'getting
    something out of it' and not on "Though He slay me, yet will I trust
    Him" (Job somewhere).

    The best definition of faith I have heard is that it is a heart-apprecia-
    tion of the love [agape] of God.  You see that love, that light, and 
    something happens.  The heart is WARMED.  Perhaps the tears begin to
    fall because you have seen God hung for you and you have a certain kind
    of response that cannot be likened to trusting in some machine to deliver
    faultlessly for you every time without fail.  Because the foundation of
    our response of faith is His character.

    Certainly an aspect of faith is trust, however this is a very small piece
    of the pie.  It is one _aspect_ of faith, it is not the whole pie.  In
    fact, one can look up the word trust in the NT and find it to often be
    an entirely different Greek word than faith or belief and if trust =
    faith, one would not expect two such different Greek words.

    Faith can work even in the absence of expectation of reward.  Job could 
    say "Though he slay me yet will I trust Him."  I believe Abraham was
    tempted to believe he was throwing away his salvation when he was asked
    to sacrifice Isaac (he in whom redemption [Christ] would come).  Certainly
    Moses had faith all the while expressing a willingness to be blotted
    from the book of life (Exodus 32:32) and Paul did as well even though
    expressing a willigness to forego his salvation if it would help his
    Jewish brethren (Romans 9:3).  Getting back to Abraham's experience, this
    was that prophetic three day time when hope is not apparent and faith
    made perfect endures in the absence of any signs.  (Faith is developed
    by signs in part, but when made perfect it is evidenced by its stead-
    fastness in the absence of signs.)  The demonstration of faith is seeing
    the unseen as Christ did on the cross.

    Righteoussness is by faith.  While a machine might deliver and we can 
    come to trust in thet delivery, such a process will never deliver from
    sin.  An intellectual trust in God does not deliver from sin.  Being
    warmed by His love is what renovates the heart and as the renovation of
    the heart (righteoussness) is by faith, so then faith again is seen to
    be something whose principle component is a heart-response to a revelation
    of the loving character of God.

    One simply cannot adequately talk about what faith is without talking 
    about it in the context of God's love.

    Look back on the last sixteen replies and observe the number of times
    God's caharacter of love is discussed in the light of what faith is.

    We are parched for an understanding of the gospel.  

    Man, are we destitute.

                                                    Tony

	Hebrews 11:1

	"Now faith is the substantiating of things hoped for, the conviction
of things not seen."

	Faith makes real to the believers the divine facts of God.

	Let me illustrate: Look at your shirt, tie, etc.. Notice the colors. The
colors are visual facts. Your eyes are the substantiating organs of color. If 
you had no eyes or were blind, you could not see the colors and therefore FOR 
YOU, they would not exist nor would they be real to you. Nevertheless, the 
colors are facts whether you can see them or not.

	It is the same with faith. Faith is the substantiating of the divine
facts of God. Fact: Jesus has shed His blood for our sins to redeem us. Faith
substantiates God's fact of salvation and makes it real and applicable to us.
Without faith in God's fact of salvation we cannot receive God's salvation. Two
things are required: God's facts, our faith. God's reality, and an organ that 
makes God's facts real to us. That organ is faith. God has many facts. The
crucial thing for a believer to learn is how to exercise their substantiating 
organ, faith in order that they may appropiate all of God's wonderful facts.

When faith substantiates God's facts, conviction follows. I believed (faith),
therefore I spoke (conviction). My eyes (faith) have seen that my tie is purple
(fact), and therefore I know (conviction) that it is purple (fact).

Ace