Conference yukon::christian_v7

    At the risk of being controversial...
    
    
    
    In no way do I want to take away from praise to our Father in Heaven,
    who is always worthy of praise; but I struggle sometimes with what we
    praise Him for....
    
    Nancy, I'm amazed how you can praise God for His protection when one of
    your kids has just been knifed! Do you not think that if God really had
    "a hedge around" our families this kind of thing would not happen?
    
    When faced with tragedy, did Jesus encourage us to "praise God for not
    allowing something worse to happen"? I'm not aware of that.
    
    Would an alternative Christian response be "Father forgive...he didn't
    know what he was doing"?  
    
    I'd value your comments since I'm sure I have much to learn in this
    area.
    
    Ken Johnstone
    

Hi Ken,

1 Thessalonians 5:18 tells us to "give thanks in all circumstances", which
I would understand to include things whcih the world would regards as
trials, as well as what are commonly seen as blessings.  Paul and Silas
were beaten and thrown into jail, and at midnight (too uncomfortable to
sleep?), they were prayign and singing hymns - sounds like praise rather 
than grumbing...

And Nancy sees very clearly that Clayton was effectively protected, so that
no long term harm was done, but rather his fraternal love was emphasised in 
a very realistic way.  What might well have happened in such circumstances 
is unthinkable - an uncontrolled 3-year old loose with a 10" knife - but 
now, Clayton is made aware of dangers where he wasn't before, but without 
suffering undue harm, and the family unity is cemented by the event...  
A traumatic event brought the family very close to the LORD, and they 
needed Him to be present in their awareness of the situation.
Reason to praise?

I think it demonstrates very clearly God's hedge around them...

I believe that a lot of the perspective on this needs to come from an 
awareness that we are in the world, not just to enjoy ourselves - we're 
only here for one lifetime - but to be prepared for eternity.  This implies 
discipline, because the spirit which is being perfected is of infinitely 
more significance than the body in which it temporarioly resides.  Hebrews 
12 emphases this, especially verses 6-11.  "...God disciplines us for our 
good that we may share in His holiness." I see this as including our 
everyday circumstances and dangers.

An example is Job.  We hear next to nothing about his early years, except 
that he prospered and was respected.  Satan claimed that the 'hedge' around 
him meant that his faithfulness was merely cupboard love, so God gave 
permission for areas of Job's life to be touched.  Job's witness and 
character took their place in God's Word because of what happened in this 
time.  We can thank God for His mercy in showing us our weakness, because 
in that weakness, His strength is released to work - while we rely on our 
own strength, faith is not operative.  As we realise that we *need* God's 
active intervention on a minute-by-minute basis, our hearts are opened for 
His involvement....

The 'Father forgive...' response is also valid, but is the prayer towards
the wayward child, rather than the immediate response of the parent, caring
for the family member.  Maybe it would be most powerful if prayed by
Clayton, in this situation! 

I just have to add - the very worst possible *did* happen to the LORD Jesus
- by His choice.  That's why He came - to bear our sin.  And we can
certainly praise Him for that, because otherwise, it would have been too
much for us.  For eternity. 

�    At the risk of being controversial...
Honest questioning must always be welcome.  We don't always have the
answers given to us, but that's not a reason to pretend there aren't any
questions.  Just a reason to turn to Him for the final answers, and maybe
be satisfied with leaving them with Him... 

						God bless
							Andrew

	Ken,

	When my husband began to lose his sight in his left eye (his
	right eye was already blinded), we did not praise God at first.

	Then, doors opened up for us to see the head of Neuro-opthalmology
	at Mass. Eye and Ear.  Then, we saw a doctor who has been ranked
	among the top three Neuro-surgeons in the country.  Jamie ended
	up in surgery for a tumor on his optic nerve.  Just one week after
	the first awful news, we were being shown many reasons to continue	
	to praise Him.  Insurance obstacles were removed with mere phone
	calls, appointments opened up where there had been no openings in
	sight for weeks, surgeries that were forecast as 6 weeks away
	were available within 3 weeks.

	The Devil comes but to steal and destroy, but God never leaves us.

	I firmly believe that the devil wanted to rob us, to turn us from
	our faith in the face of the battle, but God just kept saying,
	"I'm with you, I will never leave you, I will see you through."

	We've gone through more vision loss, another tumor, another surgery,
	and radiation since then.  We have had our cries of "Why, Lord, Why?"
	and "How long, oh Lord?", but we've also been able to praise Him.
	Jamie *could* have lost all his sight.  He *could* have been left
	legally blind.  The doctors *could* have ignored Jamie's insistence
	that something was wrong even when the brain scans showed no tumor,
	but they didn't, and there *was* a tumor.  

	I still think back on the many blessings God has given us through
	the storm, and rejoice.  It isn't always easy, but it's always due.

	Karen

    
    Hi Ken,
    
    Being recently acquainted with tragedy in the accidental death of my 2
    year old daughter I understand to some degree why praise is appropriate
    during tragedy and how it is performed.
    
    God is God, right?  We know from His word that He is just, merciful,
    loving, righteous, and holy, to name a few of his attributes.  I do
    not praise God for my daughter's death but I praise God *in spite of*
    my daughter's death because He is worthy at all times of my praise.  
    "Death" is our enemy, not God, and He has conquered death through His
    sacrifice of His only Son, Jesus - all for our sakes.  Aside from
    giving God the praise that He is worthy of, we are commanded throughout
    the Bible to give Him praise.  And several passages describe praise as
    a way to experience God more intimately.  So praise is not just an 
    exercise of duty but a way that God will bless us.  
    
    Concerning the "how" part I have two answers from my experience.  One
    way this is possible is when one has the conviction of who God is.  I
    have kept my eyes on Jesus and on the Father and have taken Him at His
    word concerning His qualities.  It is a mixture of faith and conviction
    which makes this possible.  But the most important part, in my opinion,
    is that God has given me the *grace* to praise instead of curse!  I'm
    just a man, subject to all the sin and frailty of any man, including
    doubting God's love for me because He has let me suffer such a
    grievous loss (even if I deserved it!).  I know myself!  God has
    blessed me with His grace, He has adorned me with belief, He has girded
    me with His Word.  It's quite amazing!
    
    The other aspect of "how" is to praise God, not the circumstances.  No
    mature person would praise God for a specific tragedy, rather would
    praise God for being faithful in our tragedies (we hurt and we avoid pain 
    but we are told repeatedly in the Bible that trials and tribulation are a 
    part of life for everyone - because of our sinful world and our fallen 
    condition).  As Andrew said, God is especially present in our weakness. 
    Honestly, His presence is so appealing and fulfilling that a truly
    courageous one might seek to suffer many trials!
    
    jeff

    Thank you everyone, but particularly Jeff (.4) for such beautiful
    responses that have been blessings.
    
    Mary
    

    Hello everyone
    
    Jeff, you really hit it right on the nose!  My sister is dating a guy
    who is a friend of mine as well.  He's suffering from Lupus, which is a
    blood disease that I've heard of but don't know much about.
    
    I must say that it was never given by God for him to have such a
    disease that has left him in the hospital countless time on the brink
    of death.  I'm sure that his faith must have been weakened due to the
    pain that he has experienced.  Doctors telling him that he would not
    make it everytime the disease would act up again.  The great thing
    about it is that his faith has been streaghthen immensely.
    
    I do believe that when God is ready to take us whoever it may be that
    he feels that that person is ready to go and he is the final authority
    on that.  God allows things to happen for our character to be built,
    and who are we to say that God shouldn't allow these tradgedies to
    happen when he made the ultimate sacrifice of allowing his son to die
    for everyone who is born and who dies.  It's a bigger tragedy when
    someone dies without the lord comparatively to the minute tragedies
    however disturbing they may be.
    
    With all the Lord's love and caring
    
    E. Bontonovinchi
    

A quick review of the GEMS found within the previous replies...don't skip
over them, they're worth re-reading...

Andrew:
>	 ...and the family unity is cemented by the event...
>	 A traumatic event brought the family very close to the LORD,...

Karen:
>        I still think back on the many blessings God has given us through
>        the storm, and rejoice.  It isn't always easy, but it's always due.
    				  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^!!
Jeff:
>	 Aside from giving God the praise that He is worthy of, we are
>	 commanded throughout the Bible to give Him praise.  And several
>	 passages describe praise as a way to experience God more intimately.
>	 So praise is not just an exercise of duty but a way that God will
>	 bless us.

>	 God has blessed me with His grace, He has adorned me with belief, He
>	 has girded me with His Word.  It's quite amazing!


Hmmm...  I am left with very little to add.

I used to wonder why God COMMANDED us to praise Him.  I had this question
until I was shown that, as any loving parent, He guides us `for our own good'.
It is for OUR BENEFIT that we praise His Holiness and to add our voices to
the ongoing, heavenly choir that surrounds His throne!  As mentioned, it offers
yet another opportunity for us to get together with our Father.  Think of this:
If there were no trials in the world, would we still be dependant on God and
go after Him with the same intensity?

I praise Him for His grace and mercy that follow us all the days of our lives.
I thank Him for His patience as we come to "learn of Him."  I thank Him for
the question that was raised, so we could all see our God's love in action
in the previous replies.  I thank Him that He counted us worthwhile to send
His Son to eliminate the man-made wall that separated us from our Father.

I thank Him for this revelation in the book of John chapter 16, verse 33:

    	"These things I have spoken unto you, that IN ME ye might
    	have peace.  In the world ye shall have tribulation:  but
    	be of good cheer:  I have overcome the world."

Well, what do you know?  He does all these things - out of love!

Choice blessings to you all,
Joe

I was just on the phone with my friend, Paul Lucier, and told him about this
note.  He read 1 Peter verses 6-9 to me.

    "Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be,
    ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations (adversity - JL):

    That the trial of your faith, BEING MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN OF GOLD
    THAT PERISHETH, though it be tried with fire, might be FOUND UNTO
    PRAISE and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ.

    Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not,
    yet believing, YE REJOICE WITH JOY UNSPEAKABLE and full of glory.

    Recieving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

Joe

    Ken,
    
    I hope you've read the replies in this topic.  Some folks have really
    poured their hearts out.. thanks Joe for the gems clips!
    
    It's funny, when you asked that question, it sorta set me back a
    little, cause my praise came naturally, without forethought.  Since
    Jesus came into my heart, there hasn't been room for very much doubt or
    bitterness.
    
    You see, my background was that of a very abused child, starting at
    around age 4 [at least my first recollection].  And many folks have
    asked me that very same question in regards to my salvation, how could
    I trust a God who allowed an innocent child the abuse that I
    suffered.  And you know, I can't really answer that question.  I know
    what I know, cause I know it and about 90% of it is experiential and
    10% of it is learned.
    
    I experienced the loving hand of God reaching out to my very essence in
    a way so real that when I came to the saving knowledge of the Lord
    Jesus Christ, all abuse in my life was insignificant. You know he
    turned hate into love, He turned bitterness into compassion, and pain
    into empathy.  
    
    I have joy in my heart regardless of my circumstances, because of the
    witness of the Holy Spirit.  My body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
    and I was bought with a price on calvary.  And I must glorify God in my
    body and in my Spirit which are His.  Why?  Not just because He said
    so, even though that is enough, but also because He has manifested His
    love to me through the fulfillment of the promise that once we become
    His, old things are passed away and all things become new.  I have my
    innocence inspite of my abuse, because of faith in God.
    
    When God has worked as mightily in your life [and He may have] as he
    has in mine, you can't help but praise Him in all things.
    
    May God Bless You,
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    Thanks for your comments, and initiative which generated such valuable
    replies to my question.
    
    I am fully in synch with praising God in all circumstances, perhaps in
    spite of our feelings at the time.   However, I'm not at all sure that
    we should praise God for the circumstances themselves?
    
    I guess my question was triggered by the string of repsonses to your
    note which said "praise God for his protection" when in fact God has
    not promised us protection from the trials of life in which all
    humankind share. And clearly your child was not protected from this
    terrifying incident.
    
    It seems to me inappropriate to praise God for hypotheticall action
    ("Praise God it wasn't worse"). 
    
    We have a sovereign God who is the master at turning the tables on the
    Devil, and bringing good from evil, blessings from tragedy. Jesus
    victory at the cross is the primary example of this.
    
    Should we not be bringing thanks & praise for the "blessings" and good
    rather than the hypothetical protection from something worse?
    
    What do you think?
    
    Ken

>    I am fully in synch with praising God in all circumstances, perhaps in
>    spite of our feelings at the time.   However, I'm not at all sure that
>    we should praise God for the circumstances themselves?
 
    Agreed!
    I can guarantee I was not praising God for the circumstance surrounding
    a stabbing of my son.  I was merely praising Him for protecting Clayton
    from fatal harm, which I believe God has control over.  Especially, and
    more intensely since both Clayton and I have submitted Clayton's life
    to the Lord.  As a parent, I have dedicated to raise Clayton in the
    admonition of our Lord, and Clayton has received Christ as Savior.
    
    I hope this is more clear.   
    
    >I guess my question was triggered by the string of repsonses to your
    >note which said "praise God for his protection" when in fact God has
    >not promised us protection from the trials of life in which all
    >humankind share. And clearly your child was not protected from this
    >terrifying incident.
    
    Let me clarify, protection from fatal harm, certainly the incident did
    happen and lessons have been rewarded as a result.  Examples:
    Being a single mother of two very normal boys, at times control is not
    always easily obtained.  As Matthew who is 10 grows older, his
    boundaries are spreading and he's in a time of trial and error as to
    how far those boundaries can go with Mom.  This situation has caused a
    willful submission of Matthew to Mom as he realizes her wisdom and
    discipline breeds safety and security.  We were really struggling with
    that before this incident.
    
    For Clayton, well the best way I can describe him is as the Chihuahua
    nipping at the heels of the Great Dane, absolutely unawares that the
    bigger dog is not equal ground to his might. :-)  By having 3 year old
    who is smaller, yet made larger with a knife in hand, inflict harm on 
    him, has brought about another sense of wisdom in his life.
    
    I'm actually breathing a little easier, as the kids are seeing wisdom
    in their *backyard* as virtual *haven* for them. :-) :-)  
    
    Helen Keller once said and I'm paraphrasing, "We look so long at the
    closed the door [or negatives in our lives], we fail to see the many
    open doors afforded us as the result of the closed door."
    
>    It seems to me inappropriate to praise God for hypotheticall action
>    ("Praise God it wasn't worse"). 
    
    That depends on whether you believe God is omniscient, omnipotent, and
    omnipresent.  I believe He is.
    
    > We have a sovereign God who is the master at turning the tables on the
    >Devil, and bringing good from evil, blessings from tragedy. Jesus
    >victory at the cross is the primary example of this.
    
    Amen!!!  Which is why I praised Him.
    
    >Should we not be bringing thanks & praise for the "blessings" and good
    >rather than the hypothetical protection from something worse?
   
    The Bible says rejoice in all things.  Therfore, I say rejoice.  So my
    answer is yes and no. :-)
     
    In His Love,
    Nancy

          re: <<< Note 131.10 by FAILTE::JOHNSTONEK "Ken Johnstone" >>>
    
     > I am fully in synch with praising God in all circumstances, perhaps
     > in spite of our feelings at the time. However, I'm not at all sure
     > that we should praise God for the circumstances themselves?

     In *all* things that we undergo, G_d is trying to teach us something.
     Job was taught humility and trust by the things that he underwent.
     Re-read Job 32-37 and rediscover Elihu's wisdom on this. 
    
     > And clearly your child was not protected from this terrifying
     > incident.

     A ten inch butcher knife attack yields a 1/4 inch deep wound that is
     closed with three stiches, and produces no facial swelling the next
     day, and you can't see the divine protection? Come on, Clayton could
     have easily been blinded or killed! Protection does *not* imply
     immunity! Trust me, I'm walking through that right now, on emotional
     and spiritual levels. I am being divinely protected from the full
     onslaught, but I am by no means immune to the pain and sorrow.
    
     > We have a sovereign God who is the master at turning the tables on
     > the Devil, and bringing good from evil, blessings from tragedy. Jesus
     > victory at the cross is the primary example of this. 

     Excellent example. The L_RD will engineer whatever circumstances in
     which we find ourselves to mature us, draw us closer to Himself (He
     *IS* a jealous G_d!!), and to bring Himself glory. Trust me in this
     too, that if we rebel, He will turn the heat up, until we melt. 
    
     > Should we not be bringing thanks & praise for the "blessings" and
     > good rather than the hypothetical protection from something worse? 

     Were it not for G_d's constant loving protection, Satan would have long
     ago destroyed each and every one of us. You woke up this morning and
     did not find yourself in Hell. Anything more than that is a gift of
     G_d. Praise Him for it, or risk losing it. 

     Most sincerely,

     Brian 

    Nancy, Brian,
    Thanks for your comments. I'm not sure I'm there yet though, I'll need
    to give this topic further thought and study.
    
    Best regards,
    
    Ken

         re: <<< Note 131.13 by FAILTE::JOHNSTONEK "Ken Johnstone" >>>
    
     Ken, 

     > I'm not sure I'm there yet though, I'll need to give this topic further
     > thought and study. 

     The *best*, *ABSOLUTE BEST* counsel that I can give you right now, dear
     brother, is to read Genesis 22 again. It's the passage where G_d asked
     Abraham to take his *only SON*, Issac, give him up to the L_rd without
     reservation, and offer him as a sacrifice,

     I believe that you now are were I was until Firday night and yesterday
     morning, sitting in misery in verse 2. You've received the request from
     G_d, but are sitting is abject terror and pain at the loss of that
     which you love above anything else on earth. But G_d is trustworthy.
     That is a very trite *sounding* sentence, I *KNOW*, but it is ever so
     true. I *just* was able to walk through it, to verse 3.

     In unreservedly giving up my wife, marriage, and family to the L_rd, He
     ahs begun to restore them to me. There had been no observable movement
     for over 7 weeks prior to that unconditional and unequivocal laying on
     the altar. G_d could not move in my life and circumstances, so long as
     I held something, even something so rightfully precious as my family,
     between myself and Him. Note carefully the change that has occurred in
     *me* , as well as the circumstances between the time of posting 6.277
     and 7.114. While the circumstances *have* changed for the better, *I*
     have changed, which is even more important. 

     In Deepest Love and Empathy,

     Brian

    What a blessing this topic is to read!
    
    Special prayers going up for Ken.  You, too, Brian.
    
    -greta

     Ken,

     BTW, I haven't got it down pat, either. I had a real down day today,
     and with the help of a troika of brethren (and sistren), was able to
     come through by G_d's grace. Sometimes, it takes God piercing your
     heart with a word of rebuke before you can see reality. 

     But G_d's Word remains true. His Spirit continues to abide and to
     guide, providing humily and repentance. The Son still forgives, redeems
     and sheds mercy. The Father accepts once again into His loving arms.
     What else is necessary?