Conference yukon::christian_v7

I can't make sense from .0, Lorenzo.  Care to elaborate a bit?

Hi Lorenzo,

In the middle ages (around the time of king Arthur & his knights ...) there
was a lot of superstition rampant.  One of their beliefs was that it would
be significant to find the actual cup used at the last supper.  Knights
would go and search for the 'Holy Grail'.  Books have been written about 
this search, but I've never investigated them, as they don't concern our 
relationship with God, etc...

I believe they all ended with:
%SEARCH-W-OPENIN, error opening HOLY.GRAIL; as input
-RMS-E-FNF, file not found
%SEARCH-E-NOFILE, no file found


							Andrew

    
    re: .-1
    
    Hi Andrew,
    
    I suppose the same "VMS error message" would apply for the Hollywood-
    produced "Raiders of the Lost Ark". I saw the film way before I came to
    accept the Lord. Looking back, I understand a little of the "lost Ark"
    in the film is suppose to mean the Ark of the Lord as mentioned in the
    Old Testament.
    
    Mike

                      <<< Note 129.3 by ZPUMA::MIKELEE >>>
                         -< Raiders of the Lost Ark? >-

    
    re: .-1
    
    Hi Andrew,
    
    I suppose the same "VMS error message" would apply for the Hollywood-
    produced "Raiders of the Lost Ark". I saw the film way before I came to
    accept the Lord. Looking back, I understand a little of the "lost Ark"
    in the film is suppose to mean the Ark of the Lord as mentioned in the
    Old Testament.
    
    Mike

Actually, the same VMS couldn't apply to that movie, since in the movie
they did find the Ark of the Lord!  BTW, in the book "Raiders of the Lost
Ark", it's explained how Indy was able to withstand all that physical abuse.
The Lord was taking care of him, since Indy was the only good guy searching 
for the Ark.

Of course, this is all fiction.

Whatever happened to the Ark of the Lord anyway (or could that be another
note?)

/Scott

    Looking at the original question, I wondered if it was a combination of
    "Raiders of the Lost Ark" and whatever the sequel was that involved the
    Holy Grail....
    
    Regarding the "historic" (rather than Hollywood fiction) "questing for
    the grail", I recall one interesting tidbit.  It was thought that the
    grail was invisible to all but those who were pure enough to behold it. 
    Thus, in addition to questing for something that probably no longer
    existed, they might not be able to see it, either. :-)
    
    Mark L.

The Israelites lost the ark in a battle that was initiated without God's
permission.  Actually, the battle began and they began to get slaughtered,
so they thought, "Let's get the ark, and God will be with us."  They
got the ark, but God was not with them.  (Was it the Philistines, folks?
or Babylon? I can't remember.)

I do know that the Philistines captured the ark once, but that was early on
and it caused the Philistines nothing but trouble, so they put it on a cart
pulled by two oxen (?) and the oxen brought it back to Israel.  

The final loss may have been Babylon.  Scholars?

MM

I did wonderif the grail and the ark were mixed up in the title, but
thought there could well be something fictional I'd not heard of in that
area... 

There's lots of rumours about what happened to the Ark of the Covenant.  
One is that it was removed by faithful priests during the time of 
Manasseh's unfaithfulness, and has been carefully tended ever since, in, I 
think, Ethiopia.  There's been attempts to trace it, which claim to have 
met with some degree of success.  But I guess it is another note, really...

							Andrew

Mark,

Of the two occasions you mention, I believe only one - the early one 
against the Philistines - is recorded in the Word, in 1 Samuel 4. 

The understanding of the times was that when one nation defeated another in 
battle, the gods of the winning nation had defeated the gods of the other 
nation.  Israel was kinda subscribing to this, by hitching God onto their 
cause.  But their righteousness wasn't up to where God had for them to 
be...  So although Israel was defeated, God wasn't.  He proved it by 
overcoming the Philistines on His own!!!!
 - they put the ark in the temple of the fish-god, dagon, and the
first night, dagon fell over.  The second night, dagon's hands and head
were boken off on the threshold.  Folling that, dagon's worshippers never
trod on the threshold.  They jumped over it (1 Samuel 5:5 - cf Zephaniah
1:9).  There also broke out a plague among his worshippers, which looks 
as if it may have been bubonic plague (from the gold rats and boils offered 
to appease God).

The cows used to pull the cart carrying the ark back to Israel were also
used as a test by the Philistines, to see if all this was really due to 
God's intervention.  The cows had to pull the cart of their own volition 
away from their calves...  Totally unnatural, requiring miraculous 
intervention (which, of course, they received).

There's no record of any other removal of the ark, which rather fades into
obscurity in all records.  It's not mentioned in any of the restorations
(Hezekiah's or Josiah's).  Nor is it mentioned in any of the removals of 
plunder at the exile.

								Andrew

    I believe that the books that the basenote is referring to are:
    Holy Blood, Holy Grail
    The Messianic Legacy
    The Temple and The Lodge
    They were written by Messrs. Baigent and Leigh.
    
    The title "Holy Blood Holy Grail" comes from the legendary search for
    the Holy Grail and what the authors conclude that the grail really was.
    The grail was often referred to "Sang Real" or "Royal Blood" by writers
    in the Middle Ages.
    Baigent and Leigh believe that it refers to a child, fathered by Jesus,
    who was smuggled out of Palestine, to somewhere in France, thus
    preserving the Royal blood line from King David.
    
    There were also 2 films made for the BBC in the early 70's based upon
    these books.
    
    			Jim

Thanks Jim,

I've never heard of these - or the idea of the grail having to do with a
child!  They sound very 'strange'! - Just the sort of thing to fire off a
fantasy picture....  There's several stories been made up around the time
of the gospels - totally fictional, apart from a few names and
circumstances 'borrowed' from the Bible.  Were 'The Big Fisherman'
(purporting to be about Peter), and 'The Robe' (supposedly the garment for
which lots were drawn at the cross) the first in modern fiction to use this
trick? 

						Andrew

    Well, here's what Smith's has to say (pg. 53):
    
    "	III. History. -- Before David's time its abode was frequently
    shifted.  It sojourned among several, probably Levitical, families, 1
    Sam. 7:1. 2 Sam. 6:3, 11; 1 Chron. 13:13; 15:24, 25, in the border
    villages of eastern Judah, and did not take its place in the
    tabernacle, but dwelt in curtains, i.e. in a separate tent pitched for
    it in Jerusalem by David.  Subsequently, the temple, when completed,
    received, in the installation of the ark in its shrine, the signal of
    its inauguration by the effulgence of divine glory instantly
    manifested.  It was probably taken captive or destroyed by
    Nebuchadnezzar, 2 Esdr. 10:22, so that there was no ark in the second
    temple."
    
    ("2 Esdr." refers to the Second Book of Esdras which is in the
    Apocrypha.)
    
    Steve

Adapted from "Corpus Christi" (hmm, when will the courts make the city in
Texas change its name) -- a book on the Eucharist in late medieval culture:

An aspect of the crucifixion and its aftermath was explored in late 12th
legends about the grail into which Christ's blood was collected by Joseph
of Arimathea.  Early in the 13th century the legend developed into narratives
about a quest for the vessel used at the last supper.  "The Quest for the Holy
Grail" was a book written around 1220 by a Cistercian monk, which was a route
towards self-discovery, in search for an ultimate reward.

The Quest is related to the religious language of Cistercian spirituality;
like the eucharist it is both symbol and vehicle for a mystical union.  The
knights seeking the grail wish to fathom the truth behind the material veil.

The grail was the symbol of the ineffable (that which is beyond human
understanding), that which could never be deserved; it was tantalising
and thus attracted the Knights of the Round Table.  It could be appropriately
approached only once one was purged and prepared, through confession and
obedience.  To those who are pure it may be come visible, but only visible
and still not tangible, while worshipping God in the celebration of the
Eucharist.


/john

P.S.: Stay away from Beigent and Leigh; they have nothing to do with the
spirituality around the grail legends; they are manifestly anti-religion.

Well, according to this first scripture from the Catholic scriptures, we do 
know where the Ark of the Covenant is located, but the prophesy is that it 
will not be revealed/found except in God's own time:

The same document also tells how the prophet [Jeremiah], following a 
divine revelation, ordered that the tent and the ark should accompany 
him and how he went off to the mountain which Moses climbed to see 
God's inheritance [Mt. Nebo]. When Jeremiah arrived there, he found 
a room in a cave in which he put the tent, the ark, and the altar of 
incense; then he blocked up the entrance. Some of those who followed 
him came up intenting to mark the path, but they could not find it. 
When Jeremiah heard of this, he reproved them: "The place is to remain 
unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows them 
mercy. Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the 
Lord will be seen in the cloud, just as it appeared in the time of Moses 
and when Solomon prayed that the Place might be gloriously sanctified."
---  2 Maccabees 2:4-8

c.f. Deuteronomy 32:49  and 34:1

			***

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant 
could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, 
and peals of thunder, and earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. A great 
sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon 
under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
--- Revelation 11:19 - 12:1

I have read that the Jewish people expect to witness the rediscovery of
the ark; I do not know the basis of this expectation; perhaps it is due to
the OT reading cited above. 

I would like to find out more about this myself.

Mary

P.S.... A friend told me about reading a book on the search for the Ark of
    the Covenant which looked into the claims that it is now in Ethiopia.
    The title is "The Sign and the Seal" by Graham Hancock; I do not know
    much about the book or its background, but my understanding is that it
    is a serious work based on archeological and historical work. I'm
    trying to look for it myself.