Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Yet another "mark of the Beast" note.

    
    "Will you use this card?"    (X) yes     ( ) no
    
    And,
    
    "If this card has a magnetic stripe on the back, a photo of you on the  
     front, and requires YOUR signature, will you use the card?"
    
                                 (X) yes     ( ) no
    
    Furthermore,
    
    "If this card, having a magnetic stripe, your photo, and your signature
     is capable of being used to purchase food and gas (in addition to
     health insurance), will you use the card?"
    
                                 (X) yes     ( ) no
    
    Jim    
    
                                                                     

    I mark "yes" to all three. At minimum it's an identification card, not
    unlike a driver's license, a Digital badge number, or a combination of
    social security number & mother's maiden name & year of birth. At
    maximum it's a credit card. Nothing "beastly" about it. (Besides, I
    won't be here when the mark of the beast is introduced anyway.)
    
    	BD�

    
    RE: .1
    
    Wow!!!!
    
    That's the first time I've heard Hillary called that!!!  :)
    
    
    Andy
    

 re: <<< Note 101.3 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>

     Barry,

     > (Besides, I won't be here when the mark of the beast is introduced
     > anyway.) 

     I really don't want to start a rathole here, but your side comment made
     me sit up and ponder something. Please be hypothetical with me for a
     moment, and avoid the lust to dive into a "When will the Rapture
     occur?" discussion.

     What if you're wrong about the pre-trib timing of the rapture? *IF*
     you're mistaken in your interpretation (grant the possibility for the
     sake of the discussion, won't you?), and you *assume* that certain
     things will *not* occur until *after* the rapture, aren't you in grave
     danger by acting on those assumptions? It struck me like a ton of
     bricks that, *if* the pre-tribulational rapture theory is wrong (even
     partially) a *LOT* of less-discerning people will be tricked into
     accepting the mark of the beast - trading physical comfort for
     spiritual fortitude. 

     Placate as you will, but I, for one, am *extremely* concerned as to the
     ever emerging nature of the man who would be President. Just *who* have
     Americans (not including me, thank G_d!) voted into the White House?
     I'm trying to *avoid* forcing Billery into a mold where s/he doesn't
     belong, but the fruits of their "ministry" is quite telling and
     indicative of their spirit and the spirit behind them. I think that it
     is quite evident (to those who have *any* eyes to see) by now that
     Billery squarely fits the description in IITim 3:1-5 (especially vs 5),
     but I wonder how much of Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation are unfolding
     before our veiled eyes...

     Sadly,

     Brian 

    
    What Brian said about being "tricked into accepting the mark of the
    beast - trading physical comfort for spiritual fortitude", is part of
    the delusion that will deceive the elect (myself included).
    
    Personally, I think we are walking on "thin ice"..............Richard~

    
    >"tricked into accepting the mark of the beast - trading physical
    comfort for spiritual fortitude"
    
    I dont believe the Bible states that the elect will be deceived.
    I believe that the as the mark of the beast will be very subtle in
    it's introduction, it will also be very obvious to the Christian what
    it is, we wont have to surmise or guess if "this is really it". The
    masses will accept it quite readily.
    
    

Can see it coming very clearly.....

The fallen powers-that-be (in either spiritual or physical realm) are
cunning.  But only possess limited knowledge etc.

All the indications point to preparation for a socially acceptable /
socially compulsive mark, which includes a dedication to the world order. 
Personally, I am convinced that the mark will not be solely an innocuous
label, but accompany a verbal or written blasphemy.   Acceptable to all but
God's followers. 

Remember, His people *do* have the Holy Spirit within.  We don't need to be 
always nervous in case we take the mark 'by mistake'...

Oh yes - so whether I used this card or whatever would probably depend on 
what accompanied it, the personal witness of the Holy Spirit above all, and 
even what country I happened to be living in.... 

						love
							Andrew

	I would vote yes on the 1st 2, but it would depend on what the interest
rate is on the 3rd! :-)  Actually, I hope the 3rd never happens. While yes,
they will eventually make money on a card once it's paid off (long term), but
haven't they learned their lessons that you can't pay for such and such a
program by going into debt (short term)? 



Glen

    I promise not to rathole, but it would be impolite if I didn't address
    the issues that have been posed.
    
Re .6 (BUSY::SEC_3GQ)
    
>    What Brian said about being "tricked into accepting the mark of the
>    beast - trading physical comfort for spiritual fortitude", is part of
>    the delusion that will deceive the elect (myself included).
    
    The Bible never says the elect will be deceived, just as Philip (I
    think that's Mr. Yackel's name) already said in .7:
    
.7>    I dont believe the Bible states that the elect will be deceived.
    
Re .5 (Brian)
    
    I will gladly allow for the possibility that my pre-trib perspective
    may be incorrect. However, there is still another gotcha. According to
    Rev. 14:9-11 anyone who receives the mark is doomed:
    
         Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice,
         "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his
         mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also
         drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out
         full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be
         tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy
         angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of
         their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest
         day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and
         whoever receives the mark of his name."
    
    Since I am saved, and no one can snatch me out of my Father's hand,
    there's no way that I could get the mark and become damned - even IF
    I'm here and even IF I'm deluded. God won't let me.
    
    	BD�

Re: <<< Note 101.10 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>

     Barry,

     > I will gladly allow for the possibility that my pre-trib perspective
     > may be incorrect. However, there is still another gotcha. According
     > to Rev. 14:9-11 anyone who receives the mark is doomed: 
    
     > Since I am saved, and no one can snatch me out of my Father's hand,
     > there's no way that I could get the mark and become damned - even IF
     > I'm here and even IF I'm deluded. God won't let me. 

     Sorry, I don't come from the OSAS camp - I believe that Heb 6:4-6 and
     Eze 18 both clearly indicate that it *is* possible to (irretrievably)
     apostasize your faith, and thereby be damned for all time. Even John
     the Apostle of Love, in 1John 5, speaks of a sin unto death, for which
     one should not ever *pray* for a fallen brother (ie - the prayer would
     be of no effect). 

     Again, Barry, my intention was not, and is not, to spark debates on
     *either* subject, but to warn the Church, lest they also possibly be
     decieved. At the *very* least, I should like to alert those in the
     church, but not of the Church, to the imminent and eternal danger that
     *they* face, and to alert the Church as to what time it is. 

     Love (not division),

     Brian

| <<< Note 101.11 by GUCCI::BPHANEUF "On your knees! Fight like a man!" >>>



| > Since I am saved, and no one can snatch me out of my Father's hand,
| > there's no way that I could get the mark and become damned - even IF
| > I'm here and even IF I'm deluded. God won't let me.

	Barry, are you saying that you could never fall? Haven't there been
people in the past who were 1) perceived to be Christian, 2) should have made 
it into heaven but didn't because they didn't listen (could have been anything
they didn't listen to)?


Glen

    Glen, I don't mean any sarcasm, but consider what you've asked:
    
>	Barry, are you saying that you could never fall? Haven't there been
>people in the past who were 1) perceived to be Christian, 2) should have made 
>it into heaven but didn't because they didn't listen (could have been anything
>they didn't listen to)?
    
    Umm, how can we know that someone didn't make it into heaven?  "Ahh
    yesss, just the other day I was talking to ol' Joe, and he was telling
    me how he missed out on getting into heaven...."  Hmmm.
    
    Mark L.

| <<< Note 101.13 by CHTP00::CHTP05::LOVIK "Mark Lovik" >>>



| Umm, how can we know that someone didn't make it into heaven?  "Ahh
| yesss, just the other day I was talking to ol' Joe, and he was telling
| me how he missed out on getting into heaven...."  Hmmm.

	Mark, this is very interesteing. Many in here seem to know when someone
hasn't gone to heaven. They base it on what they did in their lives. Not
knowing of course what is in their hearts. But I agree with what you wrote
above.


Glen

| <<< Note 101.14 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>



| I don't think that Barry was claiming anything of the sort.  It is certainly
| possible for anybody to fall, but when you are saved, you ARE saved and nobody
| can take your salvation away from you.  (By fall, I refer to still with the
| ability to sin, but not to the point of losing your salvation.  Is my OSAS
| showing?  :-) )

	Hmmmmm...... then I guess I have nothing to worry about then, right?
Anyone who is anyone can do whatever they want to, fully knowing that if they
have been saved they won't ever have to worry about going to hell. 




Glen

    Without taking part in the debate which has no end the original
    question asked if I would use the card.  No in all circumstances.
    I simply will resist anything that resembles(sp?) the "mark"
    or may simply lay a foundation for it.
    
    Tim

    Glen,
    
    One who is saved has a conscience and will, in accordance with 1John
    1:9 confess any sins committed.  One who is saved does not look for
    opportunities to sneak a few sins in while God isn't looking.  One who
    is saved views sin as something not connected with himself.  One who is
    saved knows that one is saved by God's gracious gift of faith, NOT by
    his works.  One who is saved doesn't think about doing whatever he
    pleases, but wants to do only what he sees his Father in heaven doing.
    One who is saved recognizes God's word as a "lamp unto his feet" and a
    "light for his path" and therefore, wouldn't live outside of His Word
    as that would surely bring about his own stumbling in the darkness and 
    sense of being lost.
    
    Be sure you're looking at the same picture before pointing out the
    flaws you think are there (FWIW).
    
    Steve

| <<< Note 101.18 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in JERUSALEM!" >>>



| One who is saved has a conscience and will, in accordance with 1John
| 1:9 confess any sins committed.  One who is saved does not look for
| opportunities to sneak a few sins in while God isn't looking.  

	Agreed.

| One who is saved views sin as something not connected with himself.  

	Agreed.

| One who is saved knows that one is saved by God's gracious gift of faith, NOT 
| by his works.  

	Agreed.

| One who is saved doesn't think about doing whatever he pleases, but wants to 
| do only what he sees his Father in heaven doing.

	Agreed

| One who is saved recognizes God's word as a "lamp unto his feet" and a
| "light for his path" and therefore, wouldn't live outside of His Word
| as that would surely bring about his own stumbling in the darkness and
| sense of being lost.

	No comment.

	But one who thinks that they can't screw up and not make it into heaven
are also wrong.



Glen

This is not a debate on Once saved always saved.
Let's not rathole the string further.  Please.

Mark

            re: <<< Note 101.19 by DEMING::SILVA "Memories....." >>>

        "Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are : adultery,
         fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred,
         contention, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfishness, ambitions,
         dissentions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkeness, revelries, adn
         the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as  I also told you
         in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit
         the kingdom of God." 

        "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering,
         kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against
         such this is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the
         flesh with its passions and desires." 

                                                         Galatians 5:19-25

	Brian, I agree with what you wrote 100%. It is the flesh and or Satan
that lead us from God. What I am wondering (and don't want to assume) is if
you're tying what you wrote into why someone who is saved can't fall, someone
who is saved will never fall IF (s)he follows those simple (but sometimes very
tough) rules or if it were something completely different. Could you clear it
up for me?



Glen

            re: <<< Note 101.22 by DEMING::SILVA "Memories....." >>>

     Glen,

     > Brian, I agree with what you wrote 100%.

     That's good, since it's author is G_d Almighty, and I'm just a quoter. 

     > It is the flesh and or Satan that lead us from God. 

     Absolute correct, Glen. 

     > What I am wondering (and don't want to assume) is if you're tying
     > what you wrote into...

     OK 

     > ...why someone who is saved can't fall, ...

     No - that would border on the upsurdly counter-Scriptural. 

     > ...someone who is saved will never fall IF (s)he follows those simple
     > (but sometimes very tough) rules... 

     Wrong again. Although there is *some* truth to what you say. 

     > ...if it were something completely different. 

     Right. 

     > Could you clear it up for me? 

     A person who is saved - has submitted his/her will to the Lordship if
     Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible - will, as a lifestyle, exemplify
     the fruit of the Spirit. All others - those living in rebellion against
     the Lordship of Jesus Christ and His Word, the Bible - will, as a
     lifestyle, exemplify the fruit of the flesh. Simple, huh? It goes back
     to what Jesus said, "By their fruits shall you know them..."

     Brian 

	I like good fruits! :-)



Glen

    Whilst this discussion can bear fruit, its in the wrong topic.  If you
    wish to continue, please create another topic and I'll move the
    appropriate notes in there.  If not, then continue on this note's
    topic.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    Co-mod [CHRISTIAN]

            Re: <<< Note 101.24 by DEMING::SILVA "Memories....." >>>

     Glen,

     > I like good fruits! :-)

     Yes, Glen, we all know that. 

     8^{|

     Brian

    Re: Note 101.12 by DEMING::SILVA
    
    (Sorry it took me so long to respond - I've been out of town for a few
    days.)
    
�	Barry, are you saying that you could never fall? Haven't there been
�people in the past who were 1) perceived to be Christian, 2) should have made 
�it into heaven but didn't because they didn't listen (could have been anything
�they didn't listen to)?
    
    What do you mean by "fall"? If you define "fall" as "sin", then of
    course I believe it's possible for me to sin. If you define "fall" as
    "God withdrawing His gift of eternal life", then no I don't believe He
    will do that. Since I did nothing to gain eternal life it seems
    reasonable (even if there weren't the plethora of Scripture to support
    OSAS) to believe that there's nothing I can do to lose it.
    
    I would like to respond to your points 1 & 2 but I'm not sure what you
    mean by them. (For example, should there be an "and" or an "or" between
    the points?) Yes, there have been people in the past who were perceived
    to be Christian. As for point 2, the only people (percieved Christians
    or otherwise) who "should have made it into heaven" are those whose
    faith was activated by God's grace. Thankfully (what an understatement)
    that includes me.
    
    	BD�

    Re: Note 101.16 by DEMING::SILVA
    
�	Hmmmmm...... then I guess I have nothing to worry about then, right?
�Anyone who is anyone can do whatever they want to, fully knowing that if they
�have been saved they won't ever have to worry about going to hell. 
    
    I suppose you're right that folks can do whatever they want to. Those
    who are saved will *want to* follow the Lord; their lifestyle will be
    one of obedience and righteousness. Those who are not saved will want
    to follow their own sinful desires; their lifestyle will be one of
    disobedience and unrighteousness.
    
    Someone who is saved doesn't have to worry about his/her eternal
    destiny. They do concern themselves, however, with being obedient to
    the Lord - not out of fear but out of love... out of "want to".
    
    If someone were to tell me that they're saved, and yet they want to
    live a life contrary to the Word I would recommend that they
    re-evaluate their relationship with God. The book of 1 John is replete
    with litmus tests. Some examples:
    
         2:4 -> The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does
         not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in
         him.
         
         3:6 -> No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has
         seen Him or knows Him.
         
         3:9-10 -> No one who is born of God practices sin, because His
         seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of
         God. By this the children of God and the children of the
         devil are obvious: any one who does not practice
         righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love
         his brother.
         
         5:2-3 -> By this we know that we love the children of God,
         when we love God and observe His commandments. For this is
         the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His
         commandments are not burdensome.
    
    	BD�

| <<< Note 101.27 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>



| What do you mean by "fall"? If you define "fall" as "sin", then of
| course I believe it's possible for me to sin. If you define "fall" as
| "God withdrawing His gift of eternal life", then no I don't believe He
| will do that. 

	It was the latter I was talking about. The reason I ask this is because
someone can easily think they are following God, but may actually not be doing
that at all. Jim Bakker is one that comes to mind. But like in that Religion in
the News topic of the minister who tried to kill his wife. IF he did this (and
God would know regardless of how the jury decides) then has he done something
that God would take away his membership card?

| to be Christian. As for point 2, the only people (percieved Christians
| or otherwise) who "should have made it into heaven" are those whose
| faith was activated by God's grace. Thankfully (what an understatement)
| that includes me.

	Then based on what you wrote above, it would also include me. :-) 



Glen

| <<< Note 101.28 by DYPSS1::DYSERT "Barry - Custom Software Development" >>>




| I suppose you're right that folks can do whatever they want to. Those
| who are saved will *want to* follow the Lord; their lifestyle will be
| one of obedience and righteousness. Those who are not saved will want
| to follow their own sinful desires; their lifestyle will be one of
| disobedience and unrighteousness.

	Sorry, bad choice of words on my part. What I was refering to is
something along the lines of the minister who killed his wife. Or, maybe even
those who thought they were doing God's will (Spanish Inquisitions, burning
witches, etc). 




Glen

    
    RE: .31
    
    
    Your right again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    It never ceases to amaze me the lengths one will go to push something
    along...
    
    
     As I've stated before about Herr Goebbels during World War II....
    
      "If you tell a lie long enough, and loud enough... eventually they'll
    believe it to be the truth..." (my paraphrase.... Andy)
    
    
    

    Re .31:

    This note string is starting to rathole... please stick to topic and
    take any OSAS issues to another topic.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy
    

    One thing to consider before signing up for your "Universal Health
    Access" card: it represents another step toward world socialism, i.e.
    big government asserting control of every aspect of our lives, in
    effect trying to become our new god.  Also, bear in mind that one of
    the major goals of the planners is to force *you* to participate in
    bloodshed - the killing of innocent people - babies in the womb -
    the elderly, the infirm, the comatose, those with any "disability",
    any expensive or unwanted difference!  ** DANGER ! **

    Clinton's health care plan will not pass. Too many democrats and
    republicans oppose it.

    Jim

    It would also create a social status system that would rival India's. 
    Smokers aren't entitled to certain benefits, those 20% overweight
    aren't entitled to certain benefits, and the elderly are restricted
    too.  Might as well change our names from Americans to Aryans while
    we're at it.

    There is no Health Care Crisis in America.  What we have is a Mental
    Health Crisis in the White House.

    8^)
    
    A funny way of putting it, but the facts back you up on this one...