Conference yukon::christian_v7

I spoke with my father recently, and we discussed Truth (with capital T)
and I'll try to put down some thoughts that came from that discussion.

First, there is a Truth that just is and innate.  The founders of the 
United States decalred such a belief by stating "We hold these truths
to be self-evident." For example, it is intrisically wrong to murder 
someone.  No law needs to be given for it to be known as a truth.

When Cain murdered Abel, he knew he had done wrong before it was declared
by writ or voice.

Also, the purpose of the law "was designed to silence all mankind under 
the conviction that they have nothing to say against the charge of sin."
(See note 80.5)  That is, the Truth of sin and righteousness existed
*before* the law and was NOT brought into being *with* the law.

John Wesley has a "quardalateral sources of authority" (and the scholars
in here can help me out) for determine what Truth is when it is in question.

1. The Word
2. Tradition
3. Reason
4. Experience

The trouble is that many of us want to zip on past 1, 2, and 3, and rely on
number 4.  Nothing is Truth that contradicts the tenor of Scripture.

But Scripture is interpreted.  Anyone who says we rely on the word of God
and the Word only has their interpretation of the Scripture.  So these other
pieces come into play, remembering the hierarchy.  An interpretation CANNOT
contradict the tenor of Scipture and be held as a truth.

"Tradition" is claimed by some, and should not simply mean "the unbroken
succession" of an orgainzation.  The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic 
church of Jesus Christ is not limited to an organization.
The church is One in Jesus, holy in that it belongs to God not men, 
catholic in that it is worldwide; universal, and apostolic in that it 
has not varied from what the disciples taught.  (Friend Catholic: I hope
you can see that I am not tearing down your church by lifting up His Church.)

Reason is given to change with the debasement of humanity and only
more fleeting is personal experience.  Yet, when they affirm the tradition
which affirms the Word, they then can be trusted, for none of these four
points of the quadralateral are sufficient alone, but taken together,
provide a mechanism by which we, as humans, can interpret the Truths
that pre-exist the law.

Mark

| <<< Note 53.196 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>





| Past experiences are purely subjective.  You have not given any objec-
| tive evidence that your God is trustworthy enough to give you Scripture when
| you need it.

	Jim, I will probably never convince you that it IS objective evidence.
In YOUR eyes it is not, in MY eyes it is.

| Glen, it DOES matter if you think the verse is true or not.  If the
| verse that you are led to is going to be of any help, you HAVE to be confident
| that it is true.  

	Jim, IF God leads me to a particular verse, and it applies to the
situation at hand, then the verse itself doesn't need to be true. What it is is
the verse that God wanted me to see. In that verse it has the message that God
wants me to hear. God can use anyone, anything. It doesn't matter if what they
are saying is the truth, but if it is the message God wants you to hear. Does
this clear it up some?

| >>	Paul,

| Wrong Guy, but no biggie...

	Sorry Jim. It's tough sometimes to keep track of everything. :-)



Glen

| <<< Note 53.204 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>




| It doesn't matter if they are telling the truth?!?  Are you telling me that 
| your God would use something less than truth to help you?  

	Let's look at it on YOUR terms for a minute. Are you telling me that
YOUR God is limited to only using those things/people that are 100%
truthful/good to do His work, to get His message out? Is He really THAT
limited?




Glen

| <<< Note 53.204 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>



	I meant to answer this in the last note but deleted it by mistake. :-)

| Things/people that lie and tell you what you want to hear are of no help.  

	Agreed! But, if you have read all of the notes that I put in, you would
also see that I have talked about many a thing that I had to swallow when I
didn't want to. Things that weren't what I wanted to hear, but knew they were
the right thing to do.

| Truth isn't always easy to hear, but it is always beneficial.

	Agreed again.




Glen

    
    I can't quite accept the idea that God only uses those people
    who know the Truth.  I mean, didn't He also use Pharoah and Pilate
    and....?
    
    Also, can't you learn about Truth by learning what Truth is *not*?
    I'm having trouble trying to explain this, but (for me) there have been
    times when intellectually it has been difficult to tell Truth from
    falsehood.  Being faced with that falsehood (as in confronted and
    not just as an intellectual exercise) has been useful to me to really 
    recognize the Truth.
    
    Hmmm.  Waters still look muddy, so I guess I'll stop now.
    
    A brother in Christ,
    
    Otto

| <<< Note 82.6 by AUSTIN::RANDOLPH >>>


| I can't quite accept the idea that God only uses those people
| who know the Truth.  I mean, didn't He also use Pharoah and Pilate
| and....?

	Thanks Otto for posting this. You have to admit Jim that God has used
many people to help others. Even those who were perceived to not be truthful. 



Glen

    >                  <<< Note 82.6 by AUSTIN::RANDOLPH >>>

    
    > I can't quite accept the idea that God only uses those people
    > who know the Truth.  I mean, didn't He also use Pharoah and Pilate
    > and....?
    
    Don't confuse USING only truth with THOSE that only have the truth.
    No God uses anyone to GET the TRUTH across, saved and sinner alike.
    God has limited himself to ONLY USING TRUTH as He has defined it, to
    accomplish salvation for ALL mankind.
    
    PDM
    
    

    re: .9
    
    PDM - I think we are in agreement and that semantics
    	had me thrown off your track (still don't follow
    	you completely, but getting there  ;-).
    
    Otto

    Jim - Thanks for the clarification.  I understand much better (and
    agree).
    
    Otto

| <<< Note 82.11 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>



| Please re-read what I wrote.  I never intended to say that God has not used
| untruthful people to accomplish His will.  I said He has limited Himself to
| only being truthful.  Maybe I misunderstood your question.

	Jim, what you just wrote was the point I was trying to get across.
Regardless of what is used, who is used, whatever, IF God is using that tool to
come up with an answer, it will be a truthful response. 

| God will not use deceit to teach you.  

	Agreed.




Glen

    Hello Jim, Glen:
    
    I personally believe if it is coming from the lord's own mouth to
    whomever then he will only speak the truth.  However, like both have
    you said he has used non-believers and believers alike for his grander
    purpose (he has and will even use Satan, the father of all lies to
    fulfill his purpose).  Point being it not the mundane lies people speak
    that God wants us to listen to, its the bigger picture with what we
    should learn from.
    

 re last 2..



 Yes, He can use nobelievers...It was at a Grateful Dead concert almost a year 
 ago that I was reminded that I had become separated from God.  I'm not saying
 that the Grateful Dead were messengers from God (though some of my former 
 Deadhead colleagues would perhaps disagree)..but it was the Word of God and
 a few of His blessed people, that reminded me of who I used to be and the 
 Promises in His Word that He would take me back, despite what my feelings  
 were telling me.  All of the bad feelings I had ("He won't take me back") were
 erased, and all the Good feelings I had (He loves me and will take me back)
 were confirmed BOTH by the Word of God.


 Proverbs 14:12.  There is a way that seemeth right to man, but the end thereof
 is destruction"  If I (or any of us) had continued on feelings or what seemed
 right, I would be on our way to destruction, laughing and dancing all they way.





 Jim

I think this one has gone full circle, and may have lost the orignal
question...  We're agreed that God can use an imperfect vessel (fallen
sinful man), to convey an eternal truth - as per 2 Peter 1:21 
	"..prophecy never had it's origin in the will of man, but men 
	 spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit"

There's an interesting example in John 11:49-52, where Caiaphas thinks 
he's instructing the Sanhedrin in an underhand plot, but in fact, is 
speaking God-given prophecy, honouring his position as high priest:
	"You know nothing at all!  You do not realise that it is better for 
	 you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation 
	 perish."

BUT - I would contend that God does not 'use' falsehood, as in (quote):

	� IF God leads me to a particular verse, and it applies to the 
	� situation at hand, then the verse itself doesn't need to be true. 

God's method is not to take a general lie and give it a second meaning
which is a specific truth; rather to take a liar, and put truth into his
mounth.  The prime example there is Balaam, who came to curse the
Israelites for payment, in Numbers 22-24, but could only bless them.  Most
astounding of all is what he is given in 24:17,19 which I believe told
the magi the significance of the star in Matthew 2. 

You remember the slave girl in Acts 16, who Paul exorcised?  She was
telling the truth, but by a demonic revelation.  God doesn't *need* a false
witness.  The demon had to be silenced, or it could have claimed followers 
by pretending support from the LORD it recognised.

If God is going to speak to someone individually, He might well use words
differently from in their orginal context, but He has no need or use for
false words whose obvious purpose is to deceive.  That would betray His
righteousness. 

	� Are you telling me that YOUR God is limited to only using those 
	� things/people that are 100% truthful/good to do His work, to get 
	� His message out? Is He really THAT limited?

I think we've established that the channel doesn't have to be perfect 
(things/people), otherwise no-one would be eligible.  It's His grace that 
He uses us at all.  But the truth He speaks is whole truth.

This is not only by His choice, but also by His character.  He is too holy
to look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13).  He scorns to use it, as beneath His
dignity and glory.  It would demean Him and His majesty; it would cast Him
into doubt, which is unthinkable, because He just happens to be eternal and
perfect.  In that sense, He is so limited that He will not have anything
less than 100% in heaven.  Which is why He's making His children 100%. 
Only the best happens to be good enough. 

I'm so glad He's doing the job.  No half measures.  Praise the LORD!!!!

							Andrew

    re: .17
    
    Andrew, this hit the nail right on the head!!!
    
    E. Bontonovinchi
    

>This is not only by His choice, but also by His character.  He is too holy
>to look on evil (Habakkuk 1:13).
    
    And because we are justified by the blood of His son, when He looks at
    us, He does not see our sin but He sees Jesus.
    
    Dave

| <<< Note 82.16 by SLBLUZ::DABLER "America Held Hostage-Day (insert #)" >>>


| I think I'm losing the picture.  Could you clarify what you meant earlier when
| you stated that it didn't matter if what God used to teach you something was
| true or not?  I think I'm starting lose track.

	Jim, what I mean by that is this. God uses someone/thing that is not
truthful. The message that they convey IS truthful, even if the person/thing
isn't. Does this clear it up?



Glen

    I guess, Glen, by what do you measure Truth?  How do you *know* this
    person who may not be truthful is in fact bearing truth?
    
    In that I agree that this scenario is possible, I must also state the
    reason I know it is possible is because the Truth via God's Word is in
    my heart and in my hands by which to be the measuring stick.
    
    What is your measuring stick?
    
    Again, this brings us round robin... 
    
    Sigh,
    Nancy

| <<< Note 82.23 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Search Me Oh God" >>>




| What is your measuring stick?

	God Nancy. If I listen to Him, then the situation is resolved. If I
listen to myself, it doesn't.


Glen

    .24
    
    You didn't answer the question, how do you know its God's voice and not
    the Angel of Light?
    
    Nancy

Stop here, please, or I'll move it to 53.last.

We've covered it again, and again, and again.

1.  How do you know?
2.  God tells me.
3.  How do you know it is God.
4.  God tells me.
I could list the other circles, but puleease, let's not.

	Nancy, I did answer the question.




Glen

    Mark, much wisdom in your words to not further this.
    
    As someone else put in here, with much wisdom,
    
    "A man's way is righteous in his *own* eyes, but the Lord pondereth the
    heart."
    
    And what does God look for in our hearts?
    
    "Thy Word have I hid in my *heart* that I might not sin against thee."
    
    Nancy