Conference yukon::christian_v7

    The Bible says that children are an heritage of the Lord...
    
    I'd like to dedicate this note to all those folks who are raising
    children for the Lord.
    
    This note to be used for those light-hearted moments, tender moments,
    challenging moments, concerned moments, and spiritual moments that
    create the memories that shape our children.
    
    Let's encourage one another in the *most* important task that God has
    given us... raising our precious little ones to be like Him.
    
    Nancy

A few weeks ago in junior church, the leader read the story of Daniel and the
Lion's Den to the kids.  Then the leader asked "Now what did we learn from this
story?"

My four year old daughter piped up and said "Well, we really didn't learn 
anything, because that story's in the Bible and we already know it because we
read the Bible every day."

:-)

Paul

.2 

Well that certainly says it all for me!! :-) :-) :-)

Last week I set up a "Candlelight Devotion" for my children.  After dinner, 
as a surprise to my kids, I set 3 candles on the table, scooped up some 
banana pudding for each of us, and placed my Bible on the table.

The kids came out of their bedrooms, their faces lit up so much that I could 
have blown out the candles and just let them light up the room!! :-)  Of 
course Mom's heart couldn't have asked for a better reward.  

As they sat down and we began to eat our dessert, I sternly looked over at 
them and said, "Boys, I have something to tell you.  You see in church 
the other night, I was looking around and I spotted these two boys sitting 
with thei�r mom.  They were behaving so well, and really paying attention to 
the preaching.  I thought boy, if I could have chosen my sons, I would have 
picked them.  Do you know who they were?

"No," both boys responded sadly.

I said, "Their names are Matthew and Clayton Morales."  Again, the smiles on 
their faces were incredible.

I gave a short devotion, the story of the conversion of Saul, with a short 
question and answer time, where the boys compete for goldie points with their 
answers.

Anyway, it was a special time, I enjoyed it, think the kids did too. :-)

In Him,
Nancy
    

One of our favorite games at the moment is a sort of Bible twenty 
questions of 'who am I'.  The one being asked can only answer 'yes' or
'no'...  I think I might have mentioned it here before... There's a measure
of competition to find abstruse characters to catch each other out with,
but it rebounds if you don't know enough about the character you've chosen
to answer the questions you're asked.... ;-) 

Adoniram, in charge of Solomon's slave labor came recently, along with 
Shamgar who did a Samson with an ox-goad...  We stipulate that they have to 
have *something* more than just being an entry in a family tree...  'Good' 
ones are saved up to try on those away from home.  Though they may regard 
them as 'bad' ones... ;-).  Gaius, in 3 John 1 didn't win any brownie 
points, especially as the one who posed him (Dermot, actually, who shall be 
nameless;-) couldn't remember if he was in 2 or 3 John......  It's an 
encouragement for us all to read with our eyes a bit more open in some 
respects!

In bringing up children, one thing which has been most impressed upon me is
that we are equal before the LORD.  Their upbringing is given to me / us as
a responsibility before Him (though they alone are accountable for their 
response).  In heaven, they won't be in a parent-child relationship to me; 
they will be complete servants of God in their own right.  As they are
growing into in adult-hood down here.  We and our children will stand - bow
- before the LORD as equals on that day.... 

I have to nurture and encourage them; not dominate and command them.
They have to have the freedom to grow into the people that God has for them 
to be, which allows them room to love me, rather than fear me.  As a 
result, they can increasingly be my friends as they mature; to be consulted 
in their own right, and their opinions respected.

It can be a very difficult transition, generally approaching the teen 
years, but while standing back and letting them make the odd mistake hurts, 
they do have to learn for themselves.  And your advice then attains a 
little more credence too... ;-)

I see the LORD treating Abraham in this way in Genesis 18:17-33, when He 
lets him in onto some of His decision making, about Sodom and Gomorrah.  
Abraham is given the privilege of acting almost like a consultant - but 
really he is being taught to know God and His perfect love athht bit 
deeper.  Is this when Abraham goes from a 'servant' to a 'friend' of God?  
It's a step in their relationship which we can learn from in growing with 
our children too....

�    Let's encourage one another in the *most* important task that God has
�    given us... raising our precious little ones to be like Him.

This cannot be emphasised enough.  If we cannot give our faith - His love - 
to our children, how can we expect to reach anyone?  The next generation of 
His disciples is the most valuable heritage this world has, to stand before 
the LORD of all the earth as His leaders in the coming days.

If we care at all about our children, what better can we wish for them than 
eternal life.  And without that, what value is all that this world can 
offer?

Deuteronomy 32:46-47

 "Take to heart all the words that I have solemnly declared to you this day, 
  so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of 
  this law.  They are not just idle words for you - they are your life.  By 
  them you will live loing in the land yo are crossing the Jordan to 
  possess."

 - as well as the many other exhortations in Deuteronomy and Joshua (in 
   particular) to talk about the things that God has done, so that they 
   become a part of their hearts and lives too...  Share our exciting God 
   with the children He has given us, made in His image - and often rather 
   like us too ;-)

This is a topic close to my heart .....  give Him to them ....

							love
								Andrew

	Well, bearing in mind that Emily is only 10 months...
	
	I pray with and for her each night as I put her into bed.

	I sing praise songs with her while I change her.

	Currently, I'm working my way through the Old Testament while
	I prepare our dinner (listening to the Bible on cassette).  Emily's
	always there with me, and I know it won't hurt her to hear the word
	from such an early age.

	Also, I bring her into the church service for as long as she can
	stay before bringing her to the nursery.  Up to about 7 months,
	she'd last the whole service; now it's about 1/2 hour, but she 
	spends that half hour taking in the praise, and joining in on
	a song or two.  

	I want her to be surrounded with an atmosphere of praise and worship,
	and to get used to feeding her spirit with the word each day.
	I also want her to always feel love in our home.

	Karen

Great Karen ... Yeah .... ours weren't *always* quite as old as they are 
now ... ;-)   But then, I like to think I'm not either.

							Andrew

We have found the "One Year Bible" to be wonderfull.  It has 365 Bible stories,
one per page, with pictures, starting with creating the world and ending with 
the story of John's Revelation.  They are dated on each page, and we read one 
each night.

One of the things that I really like about it is that because of the dates, we
keep up.  We don't feel guilty about the inevitable nights when we don't do the
story, we just read two a night until we catch up.

When we finish on December 31, we start again with God creating the world the
next day.

Paul

I was in my bedroom last night, working on my Bible study, when my 
oldest daughter (10 going on 40 ) marched into the room with her
Bible and a notepad under her arm, turned off the TV and plopped down on 
the bed next to me.  She announced that she was going to help me with my 
Bible study and not to argue with her.  Although it took nearly three 
times longer than usual (isn't it amazing how much kids can "help") we 
had a wonderful time discussing Scriptures.  Now that we have this 
week's study done, I'm going to have to come up with another one for 
tonight.

Sandy

    Sandy,
    
    That's great.... amazing ... I don't know about you, but sometimes
    without the prompting of my children... I'd forget about devotions..
    which btw, I don't do *every* night... I know some believe that family
    devotions should be every night... but for us, it just seems better
    received at once a week.
    
    Now, we pray together every day and when discussions come up, I don't
    shrug them off, we sometimes find things that get our interest without
    it being a formal time many times throughout the week.
    
    The grand part for me is when my kids ask me to put on the narrative
    Bible tapes to their favorite Bible stories and they read along while
    the tape is playing... that warms my heart.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

Sounds awfully familiar, Nancy.  I use the excuse of not enough time  
for daily devotions until I'm rudely awakened by a chastizing child.  I 
try to make sure that God is first in their hearts but some nights I 
find it hard to realize that God must be first in my heart...sigh.  
Night's like last night serve as a gentle reminder that I need to  
rearrange my priorities.


Sandy

    We have a daughter  8 months and 27 months.  The 2 year old (27 mos)
    has been saying prayers for about 6 months.  Usually we feed her first
    at night and gather round while she prays.  Most of the time our dinner
    is rather casual and we eat a few minutes after she does.  Usually my
    wife eats 20 minutes later as she feeds the baby.  Last night I had the
    girls alone.  I fed the 2 year old and she prayed and then I fed the
    baby and put her down.  I then fixed my plate and the 2 year old still
    in her high chair said...     "Daddy, are you going to thank God!"

When ours were young, I prayed with each of them as they went to bed.  With 
four, that could seem to take most of the evening, but it was a good 
time...  I was glad if I could organise it to have several together!

Eventually I decided that they were old enough to look after this
themsleves - I think the oldest was late teens, and the youngest (Nicolas),
early teens.  It tore my heart to see Nicolas' face when I said that, the 
most because it was said and nothing could unsay it.  It still hurts to 
remember. .... if only I'd phased them through...

Our family Bible reading and prayer is at the breakfast table still...

							Andrew

    I've been having some challenging moments with my 10 year old, it seems
    that the sibiling rivalry has come to an un-natural level... at least
    to me.
    
    They've gotten into mimicking and chiding each other over the simplest
    of things.  It has literally gotten to the point of "He looked at me!" 
    
    I've tried talking to them individually.. I've even gotten them
    buttonized that when I say, "What is good character?", the button
    depresses automatically and the response is, "Doing right even
    everybody else is doing wrong."  This seemed to curb some of the
    behavior for a while, but I need a new shtick.. any ideas?
    
    Matthew is 10 - and changing.. struggling to not be a little boy.
    
    Clayton is 6 - and changing .. struggling to be a 10 year old.
    
    Could really use some wisdom from some of you who have raised a family
    already.
    
    Nancy
    

    On the lighter side.
    
    When I was home sick last week, my kids came home from school. 
    Immediately they wanted to go outiside and play.  I told them to finish
    their homework, bring it to me to check and then they could go outside.
    
    Well, my oldest finished his homework, was very excited and was walking
    down the hall singing, "I'm dum, I'm dum, I'm dum"... he was getting 
    done and dum dee dum dum dum dee dum... singing confoosed.
    
    All of a sudden, he stopped, burst out laughing, blushed profusely and
    said, "Mom, I'm dum!" :-)
    
    [considering his last report card, it wasn't too funny]
    :-) :-)
    Nancy

    Find a responsibility and privilege suited for a 10-year old.
    Allow your 10-year old to have a privilege that the 6-year old
    cannot have at this time.  Explain that privileges can be taken away if
    abused (such as teasing the younger about it; and that's the
    responsible part).  He's the elder and needs to set an example.
    
    Next (concurrently), involve your 6-year old in something that is
    unique, so he can step out of his brother's shadow.  Let me stress
    unique; something the elder does not do.  For Jessica, she plays the
    piano while Miranda plays the violin; they both don't play the violin.
    
    Third, instill in your children that you are a family unit and this is
    very important; they are to be each others' best friend, through thick
    and thin.
    
    Mark

    On the humorous side....
    
    Once again this week Nathan, my 4-year-old, reminded me "When we get
    to heaven, we won't have to blow our noses."
    
    Mark L.

re .13 .... those growing stages which we feel we could so do without!!!

Can it help to translate the button response translated into specifics ...
- like:

   "What is good character?"  
	- helping Clayton even when he wants to bite *my* donut...
	  (*maybe* remembering that one day Matthew may be in need of a donut, 
	   and Clayton learnt by example to give his own up ... because 
	   Matthew's example has taught Clayton to love Matthew;-).

	- don't take something as intended for bad when it might not be,
	  it builds walls between friends, and destroys them both.

	- if you can pretend an insult doesn't matter, you take away its
	  satisfaction from the one who insults you, so he loses interest 
	  in it.  If it wasn't meant as an insult anyway, it avoids upsetting 
	  the friendship.

- By loving an enemy you can turn him into a friend.

Feature Romans 5:8 ...
	"God demonstrates His own love for us in this: while we were still 
	 sinners, Christ died for us.

But I think that this sort of head butting situation arises from growing
pains, where boredom can strike, and children need something new, or a
challenge or responsibility.  Sometimes even artificial, to maybe learn
towards something that *would* be useful later... I think it's most likely
to happen on a car journey, when the scope for doing much is limited.  On a
long journey, map reading, towards navigation is practical, useful, and
usually an interesting responsibility (though the driver has to be at least
one step ahead at least in the early stages!!!). 

Depends on what each individual can respond to, and what grabs their
interest too..  I was never more amazed than when mine suddenly all became
very interested in footb.. make that soccer.  It had never caught on in the
least with me, and 'train up a child in the way he shall go....', I
thought, so, 'where *did* this come from?'  ;-}

								Andrew

    Hi Markel,
    
    It's really quite simple though requires nerves of steel.
    
    Dr. Denmark says that you can teach an infant a habit in three days. 
    Our experience says this is true whether its rocking them before
    bedtime or getting them to sleep through the night.
    
    We are using formula and our child is on a schedule of feeding every
    four hours - 6 am, 10, 14:00, 18:00, 22:00.  We will be on this
    schedule until food is introduced (I believe).  Then he will eat
    formula and food every 5.5 hours - 7 am, 12:30 and 18:00.
    
    It would be hard to get the child to change the first week completely
    since they've had their own schedule for many months in the womb.  But
    he is ready to be trained during the second week of life.  After his 10:00
    pm feeding we place him the basinet.  Since he gets good and full he
    initially will sleep for 3-5 hours or so until he gets hungry again or
    wakes up and is ready to be entertained.  When she wakes up and cries
    let her cry for five minutes or so then go to her and pat her on the
    back and rub her head for a minute or so, comforting her.  But do not
    pick her up out of the crib.  Do check around her though to ensure that
    everything is alright.  She may cry for a long time.  Continue to get
    up and comfort her every 20 minutes or so.  I would suggest that if she
    cries for longer than 40 minutes or if the crying seems violent that
    you make sure she doesn't have a diaper full of stuff and that she is
    okay.  The general rule is: don't pick her up when she cries.  The
    first night Austin slept after his last meal to about 1:30, cried every
    hour for 15-20 minutes until 6 am feeding time.  Second night he woke
    up at 3:30 or so, cried forever - he had a diaper full (his first). 
    Next night he woke up at 4 and cried a great deal, his diaper had come
    undone and he was laying in a puddle.  Last night he woke up at 4:30
    and cried off and on until feeding time.  I expect he will go all night
    by Friday night without waking.  Of course you need to make a great
    effort to keep her up in the daytime and especially the hours before
    bedtime - a difficult task.
    
    It is important to realize that all of the crying will cause your child
    to have gas - you know how they swallow air almost every breath. 
    Having the baby on its side (preferably on its tummy) is important for
    passing gas.  Place several towels on top of each other underneath the
    sheet so that if your child spits up the towels will soak up the liquid
    and the baby will not be choked.  Dr. Denmark says always keep your
    children on their stomach.  We do and with wonderful results (our
    children can hold their heads up steadily at about two weeks from the
    strenght gained by having to lift head from being on stomach).
    
    Anyway, if you still have questions, let me know.  
    
    Congratualtions Markel!
    
    jeff

Our first child was awake all night the first night home. And why not?
the Hospital lights were on day and night; she didn't know about day and
night.  After night 1, pretty gruelling I might add, we kept Miranda awake
as much as possible the next day.  She was fed, cleaned, etc and put in
to bed around 7 pm with the shades pulled.  She wailed.  We'd check on
her periodically, and I even held my wife back once or twice after 
going through the check list (fed, clean, safe, etc.).

At about 11 we went to bed, fed Miranda, and put her down again.
She slept for a few hours.  Thereafter, she would still wake up in
the middle of the night for a feed, and a cleaning (perhaps), but by 
and large she wasn't the "hello world, it's time for all of us to be awake"
baby anymore.

This worked well enough for our following three (though number two was 
more of a problem, number three slept through the night the first night
home; Joy sent me in to check for fear).

Also, when the cereal is added to the diet of mom's milk, that tends to 
cause a bit more sleep at night (but you probably knew this).  Mom's milk.
I miss those days, sometimes.  (But I'm only XXXIII!  ;-) )

MM

    Moved notes 14.1664 and 14.1667 to 67.19 and 67.20.
    
    

I was concerned when I saw the recommendation to leave an infant sleeping on 
his/her tum. There is a strong correlation between "stomach sleeping" and 
SIDS. It is far safer for the infant to sleep on it's side.

    
    .22
    
    I'm afraid there is *not* a strong correlation at all between SIDS and
    tummy sleeping.  It is simply the latest theory with no proof and will
    be superceded by some other recommendation very soon, I'm sure. Modern
    mass medicine is as flawed as modern science.
    
    jeff

    Day 2 of Nannydom:
    
    "Mom, Miss Kim took us on a nature hike", said Matthew.
    
    "Yeah, we got real dirty," said Clayton.
    
    Seeing my kids happy and enjoying their childhood is incredible.  I
    watched their faces all aglow [went home for lunch], and found out that
    they're going to the beach tomorrow.
    
    But when I came home, Matthew and Clayton had made their own garden,
    complete with tomatoes, chiles and squash [which they don't like]. 
    They were so proud of their accomplishment... I went out to the back,
    hmm on the back porch area I noticed great globs of mud that had been
    scraped off shoes [hmmm, this is suspicious].  It wasn't hard to find
    the garden, all I had to do was follow the mud prints that were
    disguised as tennis shoes.  But much to my dismay was a garden that
    looked near like a professional had done it.   "Wow," I said as I
    hugged my now bathed, ready-for-church oldest son. 
    
    This was a moment, that I will cherish for a long time, as he looked up
    at me and said, "Mom, thank you for getting us Kim.  I really like
    being at home."
    
    Sigh,
    Now if only I could be their Nanny/Mom
    
    
    

I know the feeling - sort of wonderful and woeful all at the same time.
The "how clever child is to do/say/think whatever", then the "where was I when 
this was being learned".


Chele

I HAVE to tell someone.

David wanted to watch a video. We said David was not going to watch a video.

"He told me I could"
"Who told you?"
"Jesus told me in my heart"

What do you say? 


we said - "No"


Chele

    Good choice. :-) 
    
    This little guy's pretty smart.
    
    Nancy
    

>    This little guy's pretty smart.
    
He's a con artist (but we like him anyway)

He loves pretending to be animals (either 'scary' or nice) and cartoon 
characters. He's named one of the ones he's made up, and tends to "be" the 
character at least a few times a week. 

It goes a like this:

D   "Miaow. I'm a poor little lost kitten with no mummy or daddy"
Me  "Oh, poor little lost kitten. What's your name little lost kitten?"
D   "I don't have a name. But you can call me Peppi Choc Burt"
Me  "OK Peppi Choc Burt, can I be your Mummy?"
D   "Oh yes, please" - then he purrs.

We have no idea WHY he's picked that name, but its cute. (we think))
When he's cute he's SO cute you'd think that if he got any cuter he'd 
rupture something.    

Chele

    Chele,
    
    The love emanating from your notes about your son really lifts me up.  
    Today, even Christian women have lost the joy of being a mummy and you
    exude it so well.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

re 67.26 - by David, really ... ;-)

� "He told me I could"
� "Who told you?"
� "Jesus told me in my heart"

There's all sorts of voices trying to whisper little thoughts to us, and we 
have to learn to be sure which *is* Jesus' voice.  Sometimes He says things 
we don't want (like "Not that video..."), but if we think about what He has 
said, it's more important than what we think or want...  Life shuold be 
learning to recognise and obey His voice.  But a lot of people don't 
bother, so they don't grow to be like Him...

								Andrew

I yelled at my daughter last night.  I don't often need to do so with my
children.  But I needed to get her attention focused on the issue.

As parents, Joy and I are charting the territory of adolesence that many others
have charted before.  Our first born, Miranda, was part of a family discussion
about some events of the past day that went awry.  All three of our girls were
guilty in some degree and in some fashion and were being lectured about manners
that they lacked and consideration for others, especially their sisters.

Two of my girls, Miranda and Jessica, have a mutual friend in Mindy, who was
invited to spend the night at our home.  

It also happened that Kristen had asked to stay overnight and since Joy was
caught off guard by this public request, and had been meaning to do this for
some time anyway, Kristen was permitted to spend the night with us as well. 
(Joy owns this part of the evening.) Kristen is Emily's age (nearly so) but
physically almost as big as Jessica who is almost 3 years older.

Mandy and Mindy paired off and went to Mandy's room and closed the door.
Jessica came upstairs, feeling left out, but hoping to be easily included (as
she should have been).  We have respect of room space, by the way.

The thought by some was that the five girls (and my five year old son) were
going to sleep in the [finished] basement (where the TV is).  But Mandy
announced that "we have decided to sleep upstairs" (in her small room, with
only a double bed).  The implication, so claims my teenager, was that Jessica
could have also chosen to sleep upstairs (on the floor in a small, crowded
room).  But Jessica is not assertive, did not ask for clarification.  Instead,
Jessica chose to assume that she was being excluded (a fair judgment in my
estimation) and stormed off.

We talked about this that evening, but the damage to the feelings were done.

...Fast forward...

The next day, Jessica played with Kristen because Kirsten wanted to play with
Jessica.  One can't blame her for playing with the group that wanted her
instead of the group she felt snubbed her.  Mind you, Emily invited Kristen and
Kristen was Emily's guest.

Part of Jessica's explanation for playing with Kristen (who snubbed Emily)
instead of Mandy and Mindy was that she thought she was doing the kind and
considerate thing by playing with Kristen rather than hurt Kristen feelings by
saying she'd rather play with Mindy and Mandy.  

...Fast forward...

When Kristen's parents had left (Mindy had already gone), an impropmtu family
meeting was called and we were all in the living room.  Each child was suitably
reprimanded for their misbehavior and corrected.

I forget Emily's indiscretion; it was relatively minor.

Jessica was told that her playing with Kristen was not so much out of a
consideration for Kristen's feelings but selfish for two reasons: (a) it took
Emily's playmate from her, thereby hurting Emily, and (2) she avoided a
confrontation that would have been considerate of her sister Emily's feelings.
Jessica avoids this because it is a difficult thing for her to do, telling
someone that you're not going to play with them because they are there to play
with Emily who is closer to Kristen's age.  But we told her that she has done
Kristen no favor come next year when she joins the teen group and finally does
tell her to play with the kids her own age, while the relationship between she
and Emily strains further.  And in the meantime, her sister is being hurt more
than tellng Kristen to play with someone her own age.  Friends come and go, but
family is forever.

However, while Jessica and Emily took these admonisions quietly, Miranda has a
different pattern when faced with her failings.  Her first tactic is to deflect
blame onto others ("But I wasn't part of that." "It wasn't my fault." "she
could have asked to stay with us.").  When it is shown that the
misunderstanding and hurt feelings is at least partially her fault, she has
difficulty owning that and deflects by pointing out how minor her wrong was by
comparision to her sisters' faults ("I wasn't the only one." "It doesn't happen
all that often."  "I didn't say it like that" [She learns fast.]). When it
comes down to owning her fault, she then adopts a stance designed to minimize
the consequences: tears and self pity ("I'm always doing things wrong."  "I can
never do things right."  "I feel bad about myself."  "I can't help myself.")

One of her complaints was why it seems that she gets the brunt of the
admonisions.  (This is when I yelled, because she hasn't heard.)  I said that
we have told Jessica and Emily about their part in it and they have kept their
mouth shut.  But Miranda opens her mouth to defend the indefensible rather than
own her part of the problem and has done everything possible to own as little a
piece of the problem as possible.

Later, Joy and I spoke with each other about what was said in the family
meeting. We reasoned that we do our children no favor by allowing them to cling
to every excuse to avoid ownership.  We have 5 more years with Miranda; 7 more
with Jessica; 11 with Emily, and 13 with Andrew.  After that, they're on their
own, off to college (possibly).  How quickly will 5 years go by?  How much time
do we have to prepare our children to be responsible adults, and godly people?

We're not done with our talk.  No doubt Joy has talked with the kids again
today with a little distance from the emotion of the evening.  And I'll be
checking things out myself tonight.  Joy and I communicate and present a united 
discipline and love for our children; this is because there is no time to lose.
There is no time to lose, folks.

I love my children dearly, which is why I chastise them. And I understand the 
more that God loves me when he chastises me for my errors, failings, and even 
when I sin.  And I am in Miranda, Jessica, Emily, and Andrew, and they are
in me when I deal with my Father over my indiscretions.  I have good children
who love God, thank the Lord.

3 John 1:4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.

    >Joy and I communicate and present a united
    >discipline and love for our children; this is because there is no time
    >to lose.  There is no time to lose, folks.
    
    This is worth repeating!
    
    Nancy
    

    Today I had a "date" with my son Matthew [and tomorrow it will be with
    Clayton].  I had suishi for the first time last Friday night at a
    Japanese restaurant that is close by work and my home.  So, I took
    Matthew to the Suishi Bar at Kobe' restaurant.
    
    I picked him up and he was dressed to the tee, perfectly pressed pants
    and shirt with a tie.. ummm he shore looked grown up.  On the way to
    the restaurant, he said, "Mom, do I really have try raw fish?"  
    
    "You shore do, kiddo," I said with a smile.  
    
    "Ohhhhhhhhhhh," he groaned with a smile.
    
    Then, there we were in the restaurant and first thing I picked off the
    boat was the Takke Maki [rolls with seaweed, tuna and rice].  And
    before all was said and done he had tried almost everything. :-)
    
    He didn't like it all, but we laughed and giggled and enjoyed being
    together through all of this.
    
    After the restaurant, I bought him a pair of tennis shoes and an ice
    cream to wash the raw fish down with.. :-)  
    
    I guess I'm still bubbling and feeling warm over having spent some
    really memorable time with my son... 
    
    We called today, "Our Adventure." :-}
    
    Nancy

.checking things out myself tonight.  Joy and I communicate and present a united 
.discipline and love for our children; this is because there is no time to lose.
.There is no time to lose, folks.

 AMEN!!! This is a point that cannot be emphasized enough.




 Jim

    -1
    
    eyuck eyuck eyuck.. :-)

Isn't it nice when you not "just" love your kids, you LIKE them too?

God really does GREAT work.

Hi Mark 

.... re .31 - interesting approach.   Our 4 lads are all very different.  
When each one arrived, we thought: "Oh! they can be like *that* as well!"
while other people thought all our lads were so much te same... ;-}

In the sort of crisis situation you describe, while a family sort-out is
sometimes required, there's always the kid who can't take it, and needs the
privacy of the Matthew 18 approach - the difference between their
personality and the others isn't friction-free enough for them to take
group admonishment.  They need to be talked through the situation apart
(and probably before), to help them to own their responsibility, and to see
their siblings as having equal rights with themselves.  They seem to need
an extra affirmation of the love relationship bonded into the discipline.

Given that bonus, with my most argumentative offspring, even the dreaded
chastisement would usually end with hugs, because he knew I didn't want
to hurt him, but cared enough about him to help him to learn the difference
between good and bad.  And was grateful.   He's been bigger'n me for a few
years now, so I have to watch my step ... ;-}  And he still has a defensively
argumentative tendency, which I probably find extra unacceptable because it 
could well have been inherited from me!!! ;-)

Also, kids get aware of approaching adulthood sooner than we're aware of
them doing so.  Dermot is my oldest.  He's still my son.  But - there's
people here I work with who are younger than him!!!!  At his age, I was a
father...  In the home, I have to give him room to be adult, as well as
giving him room to be my son.  And to choose where each starts and ends....
He's quite like me in appearence, but is furious if anyone says so,
because he feels it takeas away from his individuality.  The others are
approaching adult, uh, the youngest was 18 last fall...  By the time
they're off to college, they need to be equipped to stand 'beside', rather
than 'under' parental control.  

They need to make their own mistakes at a basic level, because they are
developing individuals; not merely dependents.  Sure, we try to guard them
from mistakes as much as possible, and hate to see them make them anyway...
But what is learnt from experience becomes part of oneself.  What is learnt
by instruction is only theory, and held much more superficially.  So we
don't need to despair when hey blow it in spite of our warnings - nor do we
need to rub salt in the wound... 

So often in my relationship with my kids - and with my wife - I've had sort
of windows of awareness opened on what my relationship with God is like,
compared to what it should be...  'If I'm sore at them reacting that way -
how does God feel about me being like that towards Him...' etc. 

I ramble.  But it's been so much a part of the way He's taught me too...

								Andrew

>    I had suishi for the first time last Friday night at a
>    Japanese restaurant that is close by work and my home.  So, I took
>    Matthew to the Suishi Bar at Kobe' restaurant.


Eeeeyew!

.37

I hear you Andrew, and rest assured that the family meeting is not 
usually the method of admonishment.  This situtation, like people,
was individual and meritted the pow-wow.  And actually, it was informal.
The younger kids gravitated to the living room to be big ears.

Individualism is keenly respected in my home and dealt with accordingly.
(Example: Jessica is encouraged to do unique things to distinguish herself
from her sister, Miranda, rather than worrying about living up to Miranda's
accomplishments.)

But familial cohesion is also keenly encouraged and dealt with accordingly.  

Reply 31 is a snapshot in time and not a full picture, and anyone thinking 
that the Town Meeting is the only and every way to go when there is a problem 
in the family is missing some of the more critical lessons in parenting: 
meeting the need where it occurs.

Sometimes this calls for private discussion, sometimes the pow-wow,
sometimes between two of the four, sometimes between mom and daughter.
Adapting to each situation as it presents itself is an important aspect
of dealing with an issue.

Mark

    >If I'm sore at them reacting that way -
    >how does God feel about me being like that towards Him...' etc.
    
    BOING!!!!!!!1111111|||||||\\\\\\|||||\\\\\||||/////
    
    Boy does that hit home!
    
    Nancy

    Last night the boys and I went for a ride to return some movies and
    then decided to drive around.  Clayton my littlest got a hunger streak
    and everywhere we drove he found some fast food restaurant at which he
    wanted me to stop!
    
    When we got home, I was talking to my roommate and the boys were busily
    in the kitchen.  They come into the family room with cheese and
    crackers and milk for "Mom"... right :-).  So, I say,"I'm not really
    hungry fellas, why don't you guys eat 'em up."  
    
    "THANKS, Mom!", they both squealed.  
    
    However, Clayton who was still ravenous was looking for anything 
    else that he could consume, when he glances over on the counter and
    sees white paper bag.  "Mom, what's in there?", he says with gleam
    in his eye. 
    
    "Kotex", I answered.
    
    "Mom, would I *like* that?" 
    
    

    This is a very difficult note for me to share... as it's going to
    reveal a side of me, that most people don't know... well, those who
    live with me know.
    
    I'm a single parent as most of you know.  I own a home and as a result
    when things go wrong, a lot of times I can't afford to fix them, so we
    adjust to the brokenness of things.  However, this past week so many
    things have happened.  My toilet broke, the hall closet doors are off
    the hinges, the windowscreens are falling apart, my garbage disposal
    motor died, my lawnmower won't start, Clayton broke the chester drawers
    in his room, and then the boys' bedroom closet doors also fell off the 
    hinges.  Now all of these seem like little ��things that are easily 
    repaired... but NONE of them are things I can do.  I tried putting the 
    doors back on the hinges and I tried to fix the garbage disposal and
    the windowscreens require replacement, which I don't have the finances
    to do right now.
    
    And to top it all off, Clayton has been demonstrating some *real*
    behavior problems that concern me.  He's disobedient, defiant and
    oftimes disrespectful.  I've tried to *analyze* the environment, the
    sitter, me, his brother, to figure out what *is* going on.  All to no
    avail.  I've been getting calls everyday from the babysitter saying
    that Clayton will not obey her.  Yesterday was no exception 3 phone
    calls and when I got home from work, the entire dinner was telling me
    all the things he did wrong, that I hadn't heard over the phone and
    then this one thing was all it took...  Clayton had been playing around
    in my bathroom and locked the door and now we could open my bathroom
    door.  All of my *things* are in there.  
    
    I held back the tears and began to use a coat hanger to try and open
    the bathroom door.  It didn't work.  I'll call Rafael I thought, he
    usually is good at getting these things taken care of... only he's
    upset with me because I couldn't pick up the kids early on Sunday and
    said No.  I felt so helpless, I had to get inside the bathroom, I
    couldn't leave it locked... the kids were outside, Kim was in her room,
    I walked into the garage, picked up a baseball bat, walked back inside
    the bedroom, and I began to beat the door and break it down.  I knocked
    a hole into the door stuck my hand in and unlocked the door to find one
    more surprise, one of the boys had been using my toilet [that was
    broken] and all the splinters from the hollow fr��amed door which had
    busted into a zillion pieces had many fallen into the urinated toilet
    which stunk to high heaven... my frustrations turned to rage... and I
    became a mad woman.  I blamed Clayton for using the toilet, since he
    had already�� been caught doing it before and he was the one who locked
    the door.  When he told me he didn't do it, I told him to not lie to
    me... and I was getting more and more enraged, I took my open hand and
    slapped him on his upper arm and said "tell me the truth", now while I
    didn't hurt him, the action enraged him and he began yelling at me.
    
    At that moment, all I could do was weep, I felt like failure, a
    horrible parent and as though I was all alone on a sinking ship.  I
    called the Careys [he's the Jr. Church Pastor] and Liz answered the
    phone and I began to tell her everything that had just happened.  She
    calmly told me that her and her husband would be there to pick up
    Clayton and give me some time to recover and that I wasn't a horrible
    Mom and she knew exactly how I felt as she's had her husband take the
    kids when she's been as upset as I've acted out.
    
    They took Clayton.  Matthew and I went to the mall to take some pants
    back, buy a birthday present and have a chocolate chip cookie. 
    Matthew, who is 10, and I held hands all night and just relaxed as we
    took care of business.  When I got home, the Carey's pulled up and I
    thanked them.  Clayton came in the house....
    
    I don't know how long this is... so I'll stop here and continue in
    another note.
    
    Nancy

    Clayton was no more responsive now then before he went with the Careys. 
    He did confess to me that he didn't obey Mr.Carey and that he knew I'd
    be mad at him.  He also told me that he was mad at me because he loves
    me and felt like I had given him away.
    
    Then, I began to talk about sin to the boys, as Matthew was there too. 
    I used Matthew as an example and had him represent God.  I stood really
    close to Matthew and said when we get saved our fellowship with Lord is
    so sweet and close.  And then as our sinful nature creeps in and we
    begin to sin, our relationship with the Lord gets broken.  Now He's in
    the same place, He never moves from us, but we distance ourself from
    Him through our sin.  I began to demonstrate how each time I sinned and
    didn't repent, I stepped further and further away from God.
    
    Then I brought up the simple truth of I John 1:19, If we confess, and I
    explained confession, He is faithful and just, and explained faithful
    and just, to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all
    unrighteousness.. and I drew myself back close to Matthew and
    demonstrated how it was no different then when I got saved, my
    fellowship is completely restored.
    
    Then I confessed my sin to Clayton and in front of Matthew for the
    rage, anger and frustration that I demonstrated... and then a miracle
    happened, Clayton, my tough, strong willed boy, broke down in sobs, not
    just tears, but sobs and said, "Mom, you don't need forgiveness, it's
    me I'm the one who's sinned."
    
    I wept right along with him and I said well, how about you and me
    confessing our sins to God and rest��oring our relationship with Him
    and ourselves.  So, we prayed and Clayton named all the sins he could
    remember [things I didn't even know] and I confessed mine and we both
    asked for forgiveness.  When I looked up Matthew was in tears and he
    began to sob and he said, "Mom, I'm crying because I've sinned.  I let
    you blame  Clayton for the toilet, when it was me who did it."  And so
    then Matthew prayed.  
    
    When all was said and done, I told the boys, "You know God places our
    sins as far as the east is from the west, to remember them no more."
    
    Matthew replied,"But there are scars from our sins, Mom".
    
    "Well, kiddo, in this case look at my bathroom door, that is a
    consequence of sin.  The sin of disobedience and of anger.  And while
    the door is there to remind us of this event, let's also remember that
    each of us in our home got our hearts right with God."
    
    Nancy

Hi Nancy,

All part of being a parent I guess; very difficult at times and very
much humbling too.  I can remember one incident when I was oh, about
8 or 9:  My sisters and I had done something wrong, it was in the evening,
but a little earlier than our normal bedtime.  Mom got very angry, did
a lot of yelling, and sent us into the bathroom to have a bath and get
ready for bed.  One of my sisters was muttering and said, "I wish I were
dead".  My Mom overheard it from outside the bathroom and for some reason
snapped a little and 1) completely lost her temper and 2) thought it was 
me who had said this.  The next thing I knew was I was being whipped across 
my bare legs with a wet bath towel.  I don't think it lasted very long, 3 
or 4 swats, before my Mom sort of came too, and I was able to say, "But I 
didn't say that".  By this time, my Mom was so upset with herself and what 
she had done.  She apologized to me, and I don't think that my sister got 
punished at all.  I think she always felt terrible for loosing it that way, 
though I am still amazed at how patient she was with us on many other 
occasions when we were disobedient and troublesome.

As parents we have to be careful at how quickly we can assume something and 
make an unjust judgement, and also at how we react to things even when a child
has done something wrong.  It sounds like, in the end, the final result for 
your family was one of repentence and forgiveness, in relationship to God 
and to each other.  Keep praying for the strength day by day to remain at
peace in the midst of a mounting pile of stressors, that individually a person
can easily handle, but when they keep coming, one after another, are difficult
to deal with.

Leslie

Also, Nancy, you mentioned a roomate in an earlier note, perhaps the two
of you could work together to the doors and their hinges fixed.  Also,
perhaps your pastor knows someone who'd be willing to help you out with 
these fix-it items for little or no money ?

Just a couple of thoughts.

Leslie

    Thanks Leslie for the note.  
    
    It's funny, my girlfriend came over today and as I was telling her what
    had happened, I mentioned that when I took the bat in hand, I
    basically shut God out.  You see I went from trusting Him, to relying
    on me... and well that was a bit overwhelming because my inadequacies
    are well known. :-)
    
    Also, without trying to make excuses... but knowing for some female
    readers this will make sense... it's that time of the month... which
    sorta drains my energy.  I needed quiet time and prayer and instead I
    chose to ignore the warning signs... 
    
    Nancy

	Nancy,

	Sounds like a rough time, but I'm moved by the wonderful
	way you resolved the situation with your sons.  The lesson
	learned that night will last a lifetime...

	Karen

    Thanks Karen...  
    
    God has used this lesson already in more ways than one with me.  Thanks
    for the notes offline to those folks who wrote me.  They mean more to
    me then you'll ever be able to tell [cuz you can't see my face]. :-)
    
    Nancy

	re.43

	Nancy,

	That was powerful. Keep doing what you're doing.

ace

>	That was powerful. Keep doing what you're doing.
    
    But leave the bat in the garage.... :-)
    
    Markel

	Markel,

	;-)

    Markel,
    
    I actually keep mine in the bellfry.. :-)

    Finally get out the driveway, the dogs in the garage, the garage door
    is closed it's 7:45 and Matthew has taken up the front seat next to me. 
    I'm doing inventory check... 
    
    "Book bag?"  
    
    "Check"
    
    "Lunch Money?"
    
    "Check"
    
    "Teeth Brushed?"
    
    "Half a check"
    
    Okay guys hurry Mom's gotta get to work by 8 A.M. too!  Matthew rushes
    out the door and says, "Mom, we can talk about this later, but what do
    you think is faster, the speed of light or the brain telling us when we
    are in pain?"
    
    I drove away with my mouth hung open, thinking, how can I discuss this
    intelligently, I don't even know what the speed of light is, I do know
    when I'm in pain though!
    
    Can anyone help me answer this question intelligently tonight when I
    pick up my son?
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I don't recall what the speed of neuron impulses is, but I know that it
    is *considerably* *slower* than the speed of light (and the speed of
    electrons on a wire, in case that comes up).
    
    Light travels (in a vacuum) at about 186000 miles per second.
    
    "Hope this helps."
    
    Mark L.

    I gather nerve impulses are basically a chemical assisted electrical
    process, so there have to be delays in there.  Chemical processes move
    slowly compared to light and atomic processes.  Remember also that the
    eye has to translate the light into nerve impulses as well, so one
    can't say that they saw the problem before they felt it.
    
    James

    I think I recall that the speed of nerve impuses is somewhere in the
    order of magnitude of a hundred miles per hour.  Not too speedy, them
    synapses.  :-)  Of course, how long is the longest distance it needs
    to travel?
    
    Mark

    Re: Note 67.56 by CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK
    
>   Of course, how long is the longest distance it needs to travel?
    
    Depends on whether you are out of your mind or not...
    
    ;-)

    Ah, but remember, the speed of thought is faster than the speed of
    light. :-)

    Re: Note 67.58 by CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK
    
>   Ah, but remember, the speed of thought is faster than the speed of
>   light. :-)
    
    Rubbish.  It's slower!

 Depends on who's doing the thinking :-)

    
>>   Ah, but remember, the speed of thought is faster than the speed of
>>   light. :-)
>    
>    Rubbish.  It's slower!
    
    James,
    
    I have heard some speculate that in the eternal kingdom, we will be
    capable of travelling at the speed of thought.  That means that we will
    not be "limited" to the speed of light, taking light years to get
    anywhere interesting. :-)  It means, like, think about it, and you're
    there!  Andromeda, here I come!
    
    Mark

    Re: Note 67.61 by CHTP00::CHTP04::LOVIK
    
>   I have heard some speculate that in the eternal kingdom, 
    
    Hmmm.  Well, let me speculate some more (and I promise to clean it up
    afterwards)...
    
    If we are outside time with God, then of course we will be able to
    move from place to place with no time elapsed.  But then, if we are
    outside space at the same time, this may prove difficult.
    
    ;-)
    
>   Andromeda, here I come!
    
    Reminds me of a Twilight Zone episode with the old-new-society-after-
    global-nuclear-war-theme, and an attempt to deflect an asteroid using
    the strategic defense satellites, which turns out to be a returning
    military shuttle rather than an asteroid... the new inhabitants could
    fly to nearby stars mentally.  Bit N.A. actually.
    
    Gasp.  The things sitting in my memory...  ;-(

    Well, I showed Matthew all these notes and he looked at me and said, "I
    think they're the same!"  
    
    Why?
    
    Because the brain uses electrical impulses and light is an electrical
    pulse!
    
    Now I'm not science or math whiz, so I just said, "Okay."  
    
    Matthew's report card came home today, B in Math, B in Science, D in
    Language, Cs in everything else, Slling, Bible and History.
    
    Clayton's report card was straight A's with one B.
    
    Nancy

>    Well, I showed Matthew all these notes and he looked at me and said, "I
>    think they're the same!"  
>    
>    Why?
>    
>    Because the brain uses electrical impulses and light is an electrical
>    pulse!
    
    Erronious on several counts:
    
    1) The electrical impulses that travel along the nervous system are
    electro-chemical -- the impulse has to be "carried along" by a series
    of synapses, which use a chemical process to create the electrical
    impulse.  This process slows things down considerably, as compared to
    an electron on a wire (like a telephone conversation).  One place I
    worked was studying how certain medical treatments had an effect on the
    speed of nerves conducting an impulse (an electric shock, in this
    case).  I have a friend who often jokes about a "synapse misfiring"
    whenever he makes a mental mistake. :-)
    
    2) Light is not an electrical pulse.  It may be *created* by
    electricity, but light is not in itself electrical.
    
    Mark

    From my experience....

    When I cut my thumb on the bandsaw... It was several seconds or maybe
    even a full minute before I realized what I had done... As soon as I
    looked down to see the blood, I immediately felt the pain..

    BUT, for that first minute or so, there was no pain.

    So, if asked if light or sense of pain is quicker, *I* would have to 
    say it's a close (very close) race... BUT, then I not a person of 
    science.... I just know what happened in my case.

    It only hurts when you look at it.... 8>{}

    Bob

    Bob,
    
    Shock.  In cases of severe "distress", shock often blocks pain.  I
    don't know -- maybe the nerves overload and pop a (automatic resetting)
    circuit breaker.  Just another way that we are fearfully and
    wonderfully made.
    
    Mark

    Threshold of pain is extremely high also....

    Had a doctor tell me that my threshold for pain is actually to high. He
    said if I was in a situation, I would become almost critical before I'd
    realize I'd been hurt..

    Of course my wife *just had to say* it was due to numbness of the
    brain..... She's great, I love her a lot... 8^]...

    So, I guess when it comes to pain, it is a matter of how you body
    reacts to the situation and cause of the pain....

    Now, I am an absolute whimp when it comes to getting shots. I hate
    getting needles.!!!!!!!
    
    Bob
    

 A couple days ago I had the TV on and there were talking about lightening.
 They were interviewing a guy who had been struck by lightening and as a result
 experiences no pain, and is not affected by cold..he can go out in 20 below
 zero in shirt sleeves and it doesn't bother him.




 Jim

    *well* now I know.... I guess I was struck by lightening. Funny I don't
    rem..em.em.em.ber it...!
    
    8^\
    
    Bo..b..bb. Bob!
    

re Lightning strike man

Sounds more like a case of burnt out fuses!!!!

How much electrical overload do you think your body can withstand??

I once had to give mouth2mouth and CPR to a guy who had taken 415volts across
the chest. Not a very pleasant experience. 

Stevo.

 

    Re: Note 67.70 by GIDDAY::OLLIS
    
>Not a very pleasant experience. 
    
    Did he survive?
    
    James

yes, he survived.. Ambulance officers said he had officially died, but the CPR
and mouth2mouth kept him alive..

He's now living up on Lake Macquarie.. retired from his job as a sparky tho

Stevo..

	Emily is 18 months old today.  She's a whirlwind right now, learning
	so many new things each day.  As you watch a child go through this
	stage, it is impressed upon you just *how* much you influence her.

	Examples (that bring joy to our heart):

	Last week, Emily started singing on her own (vs. singing along with
	us and adding a word here and there).  The first two songs she
	sang were from her Raffi cassette.  Most recently, she is singing
	"Hosanna".  At my in-laws dinner table Sunday, she began to sing 
	"SaNNA", "SaNNA" all by herself.  I was beaming.  Today, we all
	sang it together, with Emily finishing each line for us

	Everyone:  Hosanna, Hosanna
	Mom & Dad: Hosanna in the 
	Emily: Highest
	M &D : Lord we lift up your
	Emily: name
	M & D : with hearts full of 	
	Emily: Praise
	M&D: Be exalted oh Lord our
	Emily: GOD !!!!   (At the top of her lungs - the song stopped there,
			   we were laughing too hard)

	She has also picked up (by watching) the practice of saying grace,
	and yesterday morning, by herself, bowed her head, held her hands
	up to her face, paused, looked up, and shouted A-MEN !

	I've even caught her saying her prayers, or so I assume, because
	when I lay her down for a nap, I'll occasionally hear a resounding
	Amen or serious of Amen's from her crib.  I hope she was praying
	for peaceful sleep, because if she was praying for deliverance from	
	nap time, I'm afraid I didn't cooperate ;-)

	None of these things are things we've explicitly taught Emily.  She
	is learning from our example, and it's both a delight and an
	eyeopener.

	(We *did* teach her to say "I love Jesus" ...)

	Karen

    I don't know where else this should go... So MODs, if you know of a
    place, please feel free to move it.

    I feel a need to explain what happened yesterday, to my son. This
    explanation is an attempt keep other children from making the same
    mistake..

    In an attempt to keep some other child from experimenting in the
    same way as my son, I will be entering a note explaining what he
    had done... Seemingly innocent to a 12 year old boy, until yesterday.

    You see, my son brought Oregano, flour, baking soda, baking powder, 
    cigarette papers to school.... Seemingly harmless at first. Well, 
    my son had placed the oregano into plastic bags and into some of the 
    cigarette papers.. He also placed the other items into bags.. Then 
    proceeded to show them to a schoolmate. There was another schoolmate 
    who walked by.. Seeing the *bags* this "passersby" thought the worst 
    (understandably) and did what she was trained to do in the "DARE" 
    program..

    As a result, my son was arrested and charged with a "class 5" felony.. 
    (Attempting to solicit an imitation controlled substance).. Yes, in 
    Colorado (at least) it is a felony to pass the above items off as drugs...

    NOTE: His arrest was "to his parents' custody".

    So, you see the situation we are in. This could become ugly if the judge 
    or DA decides to make an example out of my son.

    Again, Thanks for the note!

    God Bless!
    
    Bob G.
    

    So, what have your kids done lately?  :-) Markel, Markem.. you got a
    quiver full, Karen?  Anyone else out there with kids at home?
    
    

    my kittens have been meowing for attention lately...
    
    :-)

    >  < do kittens count? >-
    
    If they do, man what a den of tigers! ;-)

    My sweet son Graham (5.5) is a joy to us.  Last night at our church
    service during prayer, he whispered to me that he wanted to pray for
    his sick brother and grandmother.  As soon as someone stopped praying
    he offered his prayer for Aussie and GiGi.  His lack of apprehension in
    praying in front of everyone impresses me and makes me proud of his
    maturing (and thankful to God, of course).
    
    Then on the way home he magically turned me into a grasshopper,
    elephant, spider, snake, tiger...well, that's another story but I'll
    ask you, have you ever seen a snake drive a car?
    
    jeff

     -1
    
        Have you ever seen a snake drive a car????  YeSSSSSSSSSsssssssss
        SSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssss

Ah Nancy, I've barely the time to catch up.  If I started in about Emily,
I'd be here all night ;-)

ok, just one...

	Friday I took Emily with me to my doctor's appointment.

	We had quite a wait after I went into the examining room,
	as the doctor had to go deliver a baby.  I had placed
	Emily in her stroller for "safekeeping" during my examination,
	not anticipating the delay.  I gave her her Alphabet book, which
	is a WORD publication, I think it's called the King's Alphabet.

	Well, Daddy reads to her from this book often, and he usually
	asks her if she can say "God" when she get's to the letter G.

	This day, as she was "reading" to herself, she started saying, "God
	is good!" over and over when she got to G.  I would say, "Yes, Emily,
	God *is* good!", then she'd go back to "reading" and repeat it again.

	Karen

    Awesome wasome!  Isn't great the little things that we notice our
    children do during development?  And to top it off when it glorifies
    our God, it just warms the heart.
    
    Nancy

    Well, it's been a while since I've entered a *boys* note in the
    conference. :-)
    
    Just thought I'd share a little bit of a challange I had the other
    day with the youngest, Clayton [7 yrs old].  I fixed oatmeal for
    breakfast and he didn't want to eat it.  Yes, he's had oatmeal before,
    but this morning he didn't want the maple and brown sugar flavored
    oatmeal that comes in the *brown* package. :-)  He wanted the Orange
    package.  Since the oatmeal was already made, I said No.  He then
    proceeded with the "I don't want it and you can't make me eat"
    syndrome.  I smiled wryly and ��said, "We'll see".  He then complained
    that it was too hot to eat. So I told him to comb his hair and brush
    his teeth and by the time he came back, it would be cooled down.  A few
    moments later I passed by the bathroom and he was staring into the
    sink.  "Clayton, why aren't you combing your hair?"  Meanwhile the
    morning clock is ticking and we're running out of time.
    
    "Mom, if I don't comb my hair I won't have to eat the oatmeal."
    
    Then an amazing itch on his leg came out of nowhere and he couldn't
    stop itching to comb his hair.
    
    My patience has just ended.  I pick up the belt and give him one on the
    behind.  He becomes enraged and begins to hit me and run out of the
    ba��throom door.  I wedge myself in between the bathroom door and him,
    grab his flailing arms, look him straight in the eye and say, "Kiddo my
    will is stronger then yours.  You know why?  Because God made parents
    that way to help their children learn the right things.  And you will
    learn the right things.
    
    After this situation was dealt with we still had to face the oatmeal. 
    I then said very calmly, "If you don't eat it for breakfast, you
    will have it for lunch and then for dinner and so on."  He left without
    eating the oatmeal.��
    
    At 11:15 I went to the school with his barely warm [microwaved] bowl of
    oatmeal, took him out of the lunch line and into his class�room.  He had 
    it eaten in 3 minutes!
    
    Next morning, Tuesday.  Breakfast burrito for breakfast...homemade.  He
    be��gan to complain about the burrito because I put conned beef hash in
    the eggs with melted cheese.  I smiled and said, "Son, it's your choice
    you can eat it here or... and Clayton interrupted.
    
    "or I'll have it for lunch", and he smiled.
    
    It was eaten in less then 3 minutes at home. 
    
    :-)  I learned a very good lesson from this... follow through really is
    the single most important part of parenting... even if you follow
    through with something that you later think wasn't correct in
    punishment.
    
    I hope he learned something too. :-):-)

David was in the shower last night when he called me in to introduce me to his
"friends", Matthew James, and Jacob Philip.


He had given names to his nostrils!


Chele

    .84
    
    Creative little tyke... perhaps too much bubbles in the bath? :-) :-)
    :-)

It was a shower, not a bath.

The main problem was that he wanted to name mine too - and he likes to point 
(REAL close) while he's doing the naming.

"You can pick your friends, and you can pick your nose, but you can't pick 
 your friends nose"
(My poet husband told me that!)


Chele

    You can pick your friends and you can pick your nose, but you can't
    wipe your friends on the back of the couch.
    
    

    Have been having a difficult time with homework and my oldest son.  
    
    Yesterday we had a discussion about his homework and I asked him, "Son,
    how do you like your eggs cooked?"
    
    He said, "Scrambled."
    
    "Do you like them cooked halfway, where they are runny or do you like
    them all the way done?"
    
    Look of disgust on his face, "DONE!"
    
    "You know Son, if you don't study hard and show good character now, 
    you can grow up to be a half cooked egg."
    
    Big Smile... "I understand, Mom!"
    

    
>    "You know Son, if you don't study hard and show good character now, 
>    you can grow up to be a half cooked egg."
    
   Oooooohhhh..... that's good!   And the mental picture that conjures up
   is, well, messy...  :-)
   
   - Tom

 ..and that's no yolk!







Jim

    .90
    
    >..and that's no yolk!
    
    GeeeeROAN!

 Got my sunny side up this mornin' :-)

Jim,
  You eggs benedict arnold!  Omelettin' you have one more chance to
fold.

Mark

    there is no eggcuse for these yolks. I think we need to crack down one
    such poultry discussions. Mods, can we omelette these replies from the
    file. beakcause they're bad.
    
    Well, six of one half dozen of another!
    
    Later
    
    bob
    

    "Mom, Matthew made me spit on the carpet!"
    
    "Oh, really son, were just standing there with your mouth open full of
    spit and he bumped into you, which sent a projectile onto the carpet?"
    
    Grin.. snicker, "Yes, Mom."
    
    Why do kids think parents are stupid.  Sorta like if I close my eyes,
    you can't see me!

>    Why do kids think parents are stupid.  Sorta like if I close my eyes,
>    you can't see me!

Well, they see that some parents *are* stupid and have the need to test theirs
out.

MM

    well thanks Markem for that piece of wisdom.  If I didn't know better
    I'd think it was directed at me... but knowing you I know it wasn't,
    right??? [insecure me]
    
    :-)
    Nancy

The construction of the sentence precludes your inclusion in the the
subset of "stupid parents."

IOW, not you.

    Well, I *knew* that... tanks for splaining :-) :-)

� Well, they see that some parents *are* stupid and have the need to test 
� theirs out.

Children need a moral base to build their lives on; to know where they're
[behaviourally] safe, and to establish a 'norm'.  They test the limits on
their God-ordained mentors as a part of the growing / maturing / learning
cycle. 

If they find restraint applied at points (with explanations they can
understand), they are comfortable with a world they can relate to.  If they
only find encouragement to 'explore further' outside formerly accepted
limits, their world has no basis or safety. 

Where the world says 'anything goes', because it has turned its back on 
God's standards, they new generation has even less to live for, but in its 
desperation, the devils tactics can be self defeating even here, because 
there are some who realise that the anarchy swelling up around them *is* 
wrong, and the standards often castigated as restrictive actually have 
great value, and aren't meaningless as the Godless society would claim...

							Andrew

    The Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy (from memory) describes the
    stupidest creature in the universe as the Ravonous Beast of Bluggatter
    that is so stupid if you put a towel over your eyes, you can't see it,
    so it therefor must not exist, therefor it can't eat you and leaves.
    Otherwise any contact with this creature is fatal.
    
    So the fact that if you close your eyes then you can't possibly know
    what happened has some merit ;*)
    
    My Father in law gave some great advice on this subject.
    
    Just keep it up, you're doing a great job and don't let it get you
    down.
    
    Kind of like that famous poem of E. V. Hill
    
    Go On, Go On, Go On, Go On
    Go On, Go On, Go On, Go On
    Go On, Go On, Go On, Go On
    Go On, Go On, Go On, Go On
    
    Second verse the same as the first
    
    Sparky  

>    The Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy (from memory) describes the
>    stupidest creature in the universe as the Ravonous Beast of Bluggatter
>    that is so stupid if you put a towel over your eyes, you can't see it,
>    so it therefor must not exist, therefor it can't eat you and leaves.
>    Otherwise any contact with this creature is fatal.

Close, but not quite.

The Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal is so mindbogglingly stupid it
assumes that if you can't see it, it can't see you.

This is one of many reasons that a towel is an absolutely necessary
accessory for intergalactic hitchhiking.

/john

That's not as hoopy as I remember it. Where is that cool frood James Cameron, 
a guy who REALLY knows where his towel is!

Chele

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 447.30          The Cross In The Light of Passion Week             30 of 32
JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze"    42 lines   6-APR-1994 13:25
                   -< I think this is the appropriate topic >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Man, I just got back from the most wonderful 4 day vacation with my two
    boys. I've never felt closer to God then hiking and camping in the
    Yosemite Valley.  
    
    One incredible day when we were hiking on some horse trails in the
    forest, we came upon a tree that was growing strangely.  This tree shot
    straight up for about 10 feet, then curved at a 180 degree angle to the
    left, then it shot straight up again another 20-25 feet where the look
    of a normal leafing began.  Another tree had fallen perpendicular to 
    this tree at exactly the 10 foot marker and rested on a rock behind it.
    
    My oldest Matthew commented that it looked like a cross.  The imagery
    this tree portrayed to us was astrounding.  We all stood speechless
    gazing at its structure for at least a full minute.  Matthew requested
    that we sing  "The Old Rugged Cross" and we did.  The three of our
    voices in unison.  Then we prayed and praised Jesus for another while,
    time was insignificant.  The Spirit of God just came upon all of us as
    tears began to flow down our faces, [all three of us].  We didn't want
    to leave this spot, we just kept lingering there.
    
    As the Spirit moved our hearts we each had a revelation that was deep
    in meaning for our family.  Clayton made the comment that God had
    formed the tree just for us.  Matthew then said that according to the
    size of the base of the tree [approx ring size], it must be at least
    100 years old and that God knew 100 years ago that we would walk this
    path and see this tree.
    
    I then asked the boys if they realized what day it was, Friday, the day
    Christ was crucified on the Cross.  Again, we praised God for this
    wonderful reminder of Easter and what Christ had done for us.
    
    To say nonetheless, the day was a Spirit filled day ending with our
    Travel Journals recounting the event...
    
    Last night I asked the boys what their most favorite part of the
    vacation was [there was a LOT!] And they both said, the Tree that was
    formed to be a cross.  This truly had an impact on my boys.
    
    May the Love of Christ surpass all things,
    Nancy
    
    
    

My dad told me a story on Monday.  He pastors a college church.

One day, the Math professor and his little boy were walking across campus
to the church and 90 feet above the pavement on the top of the spire is
a cross.  The little boy bent way back to see the spire way up there.

His father asked what he saw, to which the son of the math professor replied,
"a plus."

Think about it.
MM

    Clayton who is 7 is playing Teeball this year.  His first game was
    tonight.  He played third base and hustled a��fter the ball making an
    in the air direct pitch all the way from third to first, right into the
    first baseman's hand, OUT!  Then he caught the ball and tagged a player
    [out ran him] headed for third base that decided to go back to second.
    
    He batted twice!  When he batted his first ball he made it to third
    base, then into home on the next batter.
    
    On his second bat he hit the ball directly to the first baseman and got
    an out!  As we were leaving he had his head held down real low and I
    looked at him and there were some tears welling in his eyes.  I then
    asked him what was wrong.  
    
    "I did real bad tonight Mom."
    
    Imagine look of shock on my face, "Huh?, you did GREAT!"
    
    "Got an out Mom!"
    
    "Kiddo everybody gets an out, don't worry about it, you fielded the
    ball real well."
    
    Couldn't convince him he'd done good... :-(
    
    

>    Couldn't convince him he'd done good... :-(

How often have we been this way with our Father?

(Nancy's a baseball mom!  And yes, I *can* picture it!)

    Not sure where to put this... so:
    
    I have tendency to make up stories for the boys fairly spontaneously. 
    While having dinner at the Ahwahnee Hotel in Yosemite, I began to
    introduce a story [just making it up at the time], 
    
    "Boys, have I ever told you the story about the deer that ate the
    frog?"
    
    "Is this a true story, Mom?," asked Clayton.
    
    "If it wasn't true, I would be making it up, now would I."
    
    :-), Matthew got it, he grinned at me and never let on to his younger
    brother.

    Wednesday night my Pastor was preaching from Phillipians and he was
    speaking of overcoming trials....  As he began to describe how many
    folks manage their problems *one* of his examples was that we cling to
    and "massage" our problems.  And he gave some good illustrations.
    
    During the altar call, Matthew and I sat in our pews to pray together
    and as I was praying I was rubbing his back.  He lifted his head, gave
    me a curly grin and said, "Mom, are you massaging your problem?" and
    then giggled quietly.
    
    Whooosh!  That little phrase meant to be humorous made me grin and
    wince at the same time...
    
    I smiled and said emphatically, "YOU are NOT a problem." 
    
    It has kept me very concious to make SURE I don't discourage my son
    even when he needs discipline.  
    
    My Pastor says that kids need to hear PRAISE at least 10,000 times
    before they leave our homes.  Encouragement, Praise ...
    
    I now count the number of times I criticize or *call* a behavior if you
    will, so that I make sure I PRAISE at least double the amount for the
    behavior that gets taken for granted.  
    
    A small encouragement, like "Son, I caught you being kind to your
    brother today, that really makes Mom happy.  Good job."
    
    This makes my son BEAM with encouragement, he literally lights up.  May
    God continue to help me grow in this area.
    
    
    

�    I now count the number of times I criticize or *call* a behavior if you
�    will, so that I make sure I PRAISE at least double the amount for the
�    behavior that gets taken for granted.  

I also am very aware that criticism to a child is a highly sensitive area.
A lot of care has to be taken that we don't condemn a child from our
perspective of experience, where their understanding or ability is limited.

For instance, in case of a breakage, you have to take into account the
circumstances as more important than the personal value to you of the item
broken.  If it's broken deliberately in a temper, it's the temper that's
due punishment.  The breakage is only a result of the temper.  If broken
while trying to help beyond their skill, they may need more comfort than
condemnation, while we have to quench our natural reaction at loss of an
heirloom...  Otherwise the message that we pass on to the child is that
they are not as important as the thing they broke.  Constant input of that
type can be very destructive to a child's personality. 

Correction should be put positively, with encouragement, rather than as a 
put-down...

							Andrew

David has a new expression for things done infrequently:

"haven't EVER done it for a long time".

And I must say I am still VERY partial to having my hand kissed...   :^)
(it's the milk moustache that adds to the charm)


Chele

    Matthew and I alone at dinner this past week: [Matthew age 11, Mom age
    it doesn't matter anymore] :-)
    
    
    "Mom, do girls like sex?"
    
    "Er, uh, well, um, why do you ask this?"
    
    "Well, I see so many girls on magazine covers at the grocery store with
    not a lot of clothes on and sexy looking, and I was just wonering if
    girls like sex?"
    
    "Hmmm, okay, I think I understand.  Son, I'm glad you asked this
    question because it shows:"
    
    #1 that you trust me with your thoughts about sex
    #2 because I want you to be sure about your sexuality
    #3 Gives me an opportunity to share Christian morality
    
    "Well, kiddo, girls who show their bodies in magazines are doing it for
    the money.  In my opinion, they are nothing more then prostitutes. 
    You see they are getting paid for showing their bodies and men lust
    after these women in their hearts, which God says is sin."
    
    "You know kiddo, women for the most part want to be touched, affection
    or closeness, to *know* that they are *loved*.  And yes women do enjoy
    sex, but the most important thing is closeness to a woman.  A man
    typically looks with their eyes [like at magazine covers] and they.."
    [he interrupted me]
    
    "And they feel funny all over.. :-), he blushed".
    
    "Yes, often times their, er uh, pee pee has no brain at all."
    
    "I *know* Mom, it just goes boing!"
    
    "By the way, kiddo, I'm glad you have that reaction.  It's very normal
    and nothing to be ashamed of... but you can learn to save your eyes,
    your heart and desire for your wife.  I don't think there is
    anything wrong with desire... but I do think that we need to discipline 
    our eyes to not absorb those things which will cause us to sin in our
    hearts."
    
    "Mom, it's so hard to look away, they're all over the place and once I
    look I don't want to not look."
    
    "I understand, Matthew, I really, really do.  How about we just take it
    one day at a time and you do your best to discipline yourself as much
    as possible... btw, kiddo, if you pray when this happens, God can help
    your mind to think on Him, instead of that picture... Can you try
    that?"
    
    "Sure, Mom, but it's going to be difficult."
    
    

Well done sis.  Nicely handled!  ..... that was a toughie...

						Andrew

         Nancy,
         
         G R E A T response. Quick thinking too on your part - bit of 
         inspiration from headquarters I suspect.
         
         Mind if I print it off? 
         
         It won't be long before our 7 year old, and us, will be facing 
         these issues.
         
         Paul

Another affirmation.  Lovely response, and lovely attitude on the part of
your son, which tells of a history of lovely responses from you. :-)

But I sure hope he never gets a chance to read this conference!  :-) :-) :-)

Paul

    Yes you can print it off, just change the names to protect the
    innocent.
    
    :-)
    
    Thanks for the affirmations...coming from you guys it means a lot...
    and you're right when Matthew asked me, quite frankly, I was taken by
    complete, utter, sheer, terroristic, surprise. :-)  I asked God for
    help immediately.
    
    You know I've never been a boy before... :-&

    P.S.
    
    I wonder how many adult men still struggle with what this little boy is
    just learning about???? :-(
    
    

    >I wonder how many adult men still struggle with what this little boy is
    >just learning about???? :-(
    
I wonder how many don't?
  

>I wonder how many don't?

It's possible that there are many as four or five in the country who don't.



Nah, probably not.

Paul

    My Pastor is one.
    
    He has disciplined his eyes are trained that when he sees something
    that will cause him to lust in his heart, he turns and walks another
    direction or will drive another route to avoid these things.
    
    He says from the pulpit, that men should discipline themselves to be
    faithful in every way towards their spouse or future spouse.
    
    Good preaching/teaching has attributed to the wisdoms of raising my
    boys.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    p.s.
    
    Looking at another isn't wrong, it's the attitude behind the looking,
    such as lust.

    I can certainly understand Matthew's difficulty in discipline.  Heck,
    it's hard for me and I've been practicing a lot longer.  8^)
    Like he says...it's EVERYWHERE.  The world system works to corrupt...
    
    Good response to his query, BTW.
    
    
    -steve

         Whilst on holiday last week, the subject of Noah's Ark came up 
         with our 4 year old, Joseph.
         
         He knows the story well, and I have tried to get him to remember 
         the name of Mount Ararat each time we read the story, or talk 
         about it, simply by asking him each time "What was the name of the 
         mountain the ark came to rest on?"
         
         This last time, when I asked the same question, a little more 
         helpfully or so I thought at the time:
         
         "What was the name of the mountain the ark 
         came to rest on? Mount...?"
         
         "In" was his immediate response this time!
         
         
         
         Paul

    :-) :-) :-) :-)
    
    Did you say, "Good answer son!" :-)

    Clayton was 4 years old when he received Christ as Savior.  I know he
    believed and prayed on his own volition.  I was busy working my puppet
    for the upcoming big day at church.  He heard me going through the plan
    of salvation, as he had heard many times in church already, and he
    demanded that I pray with him.  I thought at the time, he's too young,
    can he really understand?  No matter what you said to Clayton he knew
    he was saved.  
    
    My oldest son, too, had accepted Christ as Savior at 4 years of age,
    but when I look at the dates, I see that he was almost 5 years old. 
    Clayton was barely 4 years old.  
    
    Another confirmation of Clayton's salvation was watching his behavior
    change.  He *wanted* to go to church and he *wanted* to pray.  Both
    things which were struggles before.  He was also very non-social.  He
    was stubborn and strong willed and would avoid eye contact with you
    when he wanted *his* way.  Tantrums, whining and crying were common
    around Clayton when he felt he couldn't have his way.
    
    But after he prayed and asked Jesus into his heart, this changed and
    I mean drastically changed.  Everybody who had any interaction with him
    noticed how Clayton had become "manageable" and loving.
    
    On Wednesday night, July 20, 1994, Clayton now 7 [almost 8] years old
    went to our Pastor after the service and said, "I'm just not sure I'm
    saved."  In February of this past year, our evangelist John Goetsch was
    preaching a salvation message and I noticed Clayton raised his hand
    during that service for salvation.  It caught my attention and we
    talked, but he said he did remember praying "something" on his bed with
    me about salvation.  So, I assured him he was a believer and that God
    knew his heart.
    
    Four months has passed since that incident.  He raised his hand again
    in service for salvation last Sunday.  My Pastor recognized his hand,
    but didn't approach me about it.  On Wednseday afternoon when I picked
    him up from the daycare, he had a worried look on his face.  It
    troubled me, because this was unusual.  We spoke and again he said he
    just wasn't sure about his salvation.  
    
    "Mom,", he began, "I've done so many sins that I just don't *feel* like
    I'm saved.  I even have hated my brother.  And I know the Bible says
    that if you have hate in your heart, that God's love isn't in you."  
    
    I could tell that he was really, really aching about this.  I told him
    that I wanted him to speak to Pastor after the service that night.  He
    did.  Pastor counselled him and Clayton prayed for salvation!  
    
    I praise God that my son wanted to get this right!
     

Praise the LORD for that sensitivity of heart that makes Clayton want to
keep short accounts with God, even though he may not understand what's
happening.  The 'little' things that so easily creep between us and Him, to
disturb that relationship make the sensitive Christian feel as though he
has lost - or never really had - his salvation, and the recommitment
declares his intent to let God rule in those shady areas ...  but he can
only identify it with salvation again. 

							Andrew 

    What a great testimony, Nancy.
    
    You are raising leaders/warriors for the Lord!
    
    Karen

 Last night one of the little things that warm my heart happened.  My 18
year old son called, just to say "hello".  He had been camping for a few 
days and we hadn't talked for several days.  We had a nice chat and he's
going to stop by tomorrow so we can chat some about stuff going on at 
his mom's house that has me a bit disturbed and I know he and I can talk
honestly about it..


Anyhow, it really warmed my heart to hear from him when he didn't really
want anything, but to say "hello".



Jim

    	My mother was telling me about a recent incident.  My sister
    	and her family were visiting.  They all went to church together.
    
    	At the sermon the priest asked rhetorically (regarding a point
    	he seems to make about every other week) "How many times have
    	I told you this..?"
    
    	Well, my sister's 4-year-old son was there, and he was hearing
    	this priest for the very first time.  In complete innocence, and
    	quite matter-of-factly, he piped up and responded, "Once!"
    
    	They were sitting in the 3rd pew.
    
    	The priest heard it.  The front half of the church heard it.
    	To my sister it seemed like it echoed around the church for 
    	an eternity.  My parents tried not to laugh.  The priest 
    	tried not to laugh.  My sister tried not to explode from
    	embarrassment.  Everyone around them were snickering or
    	choking from holding it in.
    
    	From the mouth of babes...
    
    	And I thought the little ones don't listen to the sermons, but
    	obviously this one was paying attention!

    .130
    
    =;-0   

David had a l-o-n-g bath the other night, and was a bit wrinkly when he got 
out. He looked at himself and asked me for a prune. Then he thought about it 
and said "if you don't have any black ones, I'd like an orange one".


It took me a minute to work out that an orange prune is an apricot :^)


Chele

I'll put this one here, feel free to move it oh mod ones...

I've been having some problems trying to explain to David just WHY he isn't 
allowed to watch certain cartoons which are watched by the other kids at the 
after-school care centre.
Things like Ghostbusters, Captain Planet, and when it gets here, Barney.
I've tried explaining that these "people" don't believe in Jesus, and some of 
them believe in other gods (Gaia in the example of CP) but I'm having some 
problems making it "stick", that it's not good for him to watch.
Any ideas, bearing in mind that most/all the other kids will be glued to the 
set at the centre after school? (he's not allowed to watch them at home 
either)


Chele 

    At his age, it's very difficult to reason.  I heard a radio commentator
    just today say that the best we can do, is explain that Christians are
    different than the world and that this difference helps us in our
    relationship to God.
    
    But he was speaking at a teenager level and here I am trying to bring
    it down lower... :-(
    
    What you are saying sounds right.

	Chele,

	I've yet to see anything on Barney that goes against our
	beliefs.  Have you heard something about the show (or is
	it a TV in general issue) ?

	Emily watches only Barney and Sesame Street.

	Karen

	Last night, on the way home from church, Jamie and
	I were singing praise songs.  

	Emily surprised me by singing along to more than half of
	them.  Each time we finished, she'd say, "Another song!"

	Then Jamie would pick one of the songs that he sings to
	Emily before bed.

	It touched my heart to hear my 2 year old singing praise
	songs with us.

	BTW, her favorites are See His Glory, the Doxology, and 
	a Rich Mullins song, "Step by Step".

	Karen

	Gaina on Captain Planet is not God. She just takes care of nature. The
show pretty much is about taking care of the planet, and even offers tips on
how to do so. 

	Barney is supposed to be a demon according to some minister. Big
purple Barney, a demon.... :-)


Glen

    
    Gaia is mother nature.
    
    re:
    
    A conversation heard in my front hallway while Nathan and his
    friend were coloring.
    
    Nathan:  Wasn't it nice of Jesus to make the sunshine so we
             could see what we are coloring and feel nice and
             warm?
    
    Friend:  No!  Mother nature made it!
    
    Large argument ensues.
    
    
                             

Regardless of what the Captain Planet series publicly proclaims,
Gaia is the name of the pagan goddess the earth mother.

Sometimes her followers are called "Gaia groupies".

"Gaia, Gaia, why do they treat you like dirt?"

/john

>               <<< Note 67.130 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "decolores!" >>>

    Joe,

    Your story reminded me of a similar experience.

    Years ago at a small church we were attending here in Colorado, up near
    the front was a mother with her child sitting in her lap playing with
    something (can't remember what it was now).  The pastor got up to begin
    his message and said, "Folks, we have a serious problem that we need to
    talk about tonight."  As he said that, the toy that the child was
    playing with broke.  In that brief moment between what the pastor just
    finished saying and what he was going to continue with, the child looked
    at his mom and said...
    

    Uh, oh!

    Unlike the response by everybody in your story, everybody broke up with
    laughter.

    Ron

    I don't like my kids watching CP, because it tends to stress worship of
    creation rather that the Creator (as John implied in his header).
    
    I'm all for protecting the environment.  God made the earth, we need to
    take care of it.  I don't want my kids thinking that the earth is more
    important than God, however.  I really like the song "Living life
    upside down"  there is a line in there that says something about the
    life of a tree coming first, while unborn babies are dying.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

>                       <<< Note 67.141 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>
>                  -< The life of a tree shouldn't come first >-

>    I really like the song "Living life
>    upside down"  there is a line in there that says something about the
>    life of a tree coming first, while unborn babies are dying.

    Bing,

    Great song!  So others will know, it is on the debut release of
    "4 Him".

        Man has a new plan for saving the earth.
        While unborn children are denied their right to birth.
        One baby blessed, another cursed.
        But have we made this place better or worse,
                now that the life of a tree comes first?

	You say we've risen to a new age of truth.
	You're calling it a spiritual Godly pursuit.
	But I say, I say,

	What if we've fallen to the bottom of a well,
	thinking we've risen to the top of a mountain?
	What if we spend our lives thinking of ourselves
	when we should have been thinking of each other?
	What if we're knocking at the gates of hell,
	thinking we're heaven bound?
	What if we reach up and touch the clouds
	to find we're living life upside down?

    Ron

    Re 67.142
    
    Truth also did the song.  The Truth version was the one that I always
    heard on the radio.  The guy in Truth who sang the lead vocal on this
    song is now with New Song.  He also did another great song while with
    Truth called "If You Could See Me Now".
    
    Bing

>                       <<< Note 67.143 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>
>                                -< Truth also >-

>    Re 67.142
    
>    Truth also did the song.  The Truth version was the one that I always
>    heard on the radio.  The guy in Truth who sang the lead vocal on this
>    song is now with New Song.  He also did another great song while with
>    Truth called "If You Could See Me Now".
    
    Bing,

    Oops!  Is my face red?

    You are quite right.  It was Truth that did it.  One of the members of
    Truth went to 4 Him as well.  Maybe that is where I got confused.

    Ron

    I shared this with Mark this morning, but thought I'd share it with the
    rest of you..
    
    Parenting challanges;  I have my share!  Having two boys alone has not
    been easy, though it has been a pleasure.  My children and I have now
    reached a new stage of development.  I no longer have "little" ones,
    I have two full-fledged boys and one of them is pre-teen.
    
    Their needs are diverse, but yet the same.  My youngest, Clayton is the
    squeaky wheel at the moment.  He is stubborn and very strong-willed as
    you've heard my previous accounts.
    
    Rebellious by nature, he has become somewhat of a discipline problem. 
    Up until the last few weeks, he has been submissive.  However, he
    announced to me last night that if he didn't want to obey me, I
    couldn't force him to because he was stronger than me now.  
    
    I told him that this was true, and asked him if he thought that being
    stronger than Mom was a reason to not obey.  He said, No, but he knew
    he could beat me up if he didn't want a spanking [even though he knew
    he deserved the punishment].  I then told him that yes he could
    overpower his mother probably now and as he grows it'll even become
    easier, but is that really what he wanted was to beat up his Mom?  He
    hung his head down in shame and said No.  
    
    Son, I told him, I am your mother, and I love you with all my heart and
    you need to know that even if you beat me up because I try to correct
    your wrongs, I will take the beating and go on loving you and
    correcting you.  I love you enough to suffer to teach you right.
    
    Now remember Clayton is 7 years old, and he really does think I'm the
    next best thing to a pizza.  But, he's very smart and thinks at times
    much deeper than 7 year olds.  He falls into my arms and tells me he
    loves me.
    
    This morning while finishing my hair, I asked him to come sit on the
    toilet next to me so that we could talk.  I told him that because Mom
    works I don't get to spend a GREAT deal of time with him and I wanted
    to take this moment to tell him how happy I am that God created him for
    me as my son.  That I wouldn't trade him for any other child in the
    world.  He beamed.  I said because of that we need to talk about your
    obedience.  You know what obedience is but we need to "refresh"
    ourselves in understanding this simple task.
    
    I explained that obedience is immediately, not when I feel like to.  I
    gave him an example of petting the dog when I ask him to do something
    like make his bed.  I explained that petting the dog another 45 seconds
    or 5 strokes if you will and then complying is not obedience. 
    Obedience is when Mom asks you to do something you respond immediately,
    stop petting the dog and make your bed.  The difference between the 45
    seconds and the prompter reaction is "attitude".  
    
    One who has the attitude of obedience responds as a reflex to the voice
    of authority.  The improper attitude, hesitates and then makes a choice
    to obey.  This is very critical in our children, for we are setting the
    standard by which they listen to the voice of God.
    
    Control will force obedience, leadership does not require force.  So, I
    also must look at myself as the leader and determine how I can better
    lead my child into perfect obedience so that he may also develop that
    relationship with the Lord.  
    
    Now, that I've said that let me contradict myself. :-)  Boys need the
    STRENGTH of a father figure to enforce discipline necessary.  Just as our
    Father in Heaven chastises us, we must also chasten our children.  I
    obviously don't have a father figure in my home, and therefore, my job
    requires better leadership.  [another subject, another time]
    
    After this conversation had concluded, I asked my son if he loved me. 
    He responded of course I do Mom.  I then said, "If you love me, you
    will obey me." 
    
    "But, Mom, I love you even if I don't obey you?"
    
    "Son, when you fell down last night in the shower and hurt your elbow,
    did mom feel the pain?"
    
    "No."
    
    "If you feel love in your heart, can mom feel what's in your heart?"
    
    "No," he hung his head down.
    
    "Son, if you love me you will obey me.  I can only know your love
    through how you behave towards me."
    
    
    
    

	Nancy,

	That's beautiful.

	Thank you for sharing that.  I hope that when the time
	comes for my to be having those conversations with my
	children, that I can be as wise as you.

	Praising God for the mother He gave to Clayton and
	Matthew!

	Karen

David really likes our once a week pancakes for breakfast ritual.  He gets to 
stir the batter (a little) and help prepare the toppings.
That's when we get to say  "blessed be the cheese-graters"


Chele

    Oh... that's so wonderful!
    
    Memories wrapped up as a gift for later in life when we need to draw
    strength from them.
    
    

    This last week has been truly a transforming time for me and my
    children.  Matthew turned 12 and Clayton turned 8.
    
    I feel as though I'm heading towards that time when my children need me
    differently.  Many of you who have kids know what I mean without much
    explanation and could probably write this better than myself.  
    
    It's not that they need me LESS, they just need me DIFFERENTLY.  We had
    a very interesting conversation the other night after a Bible reading. 
    We read Romans 8 together and several things popped out of it for them
    as a "learning" time.  
    
    Matthew said to me at one point, "Mom, why didn't you ever tell me
    that?"
    
    Clayton responded, "Matthew, Mom wants us to read the Bible learn some
    things for ourselves!" 
    
    :-)

�    It's not that they need me LESS, they just need me DIFFERENTLY.  

Too right.  And they resent being offered the support they relied on the 
previous day... Just as they look down on the type of humour that had them 
in fits the previous day...  All part of growing and maturing (hear that, 
Donna? ;-)

As they grow, the problems they find difficult to face move from the
understanding to the emotions.  From memory to character; from 'what you
know' to 'who you are'.  And even more, from handling the surface
perception of the world around, to handling other people's interacting
personalities and peculiarities. 

The answer of 'what to do' in a particular situation is no longer enough.
The realisation dawns that they need to be able to handle the _principle_
of what happens when this sort of - related - situation arises.  And there
is the often unspoken or even unrecognised but deeper cry, that the need is
less what to do, than how to handle one's own emotional turmoil through it. 
If you can remember the break-up of a teenage crush, it seemed as though 
the world was coming to an end.  And the fact that it didn't was just due 
to pure callousness on the part of everyone else....  Our kids get to 
handle that sort of emotional transition as well.  When the obvious answer 
(depending on your viewpoint) is that 
	- he/she wasn't ready for that degree of commitment at that time, 
	  but might be later, when both are more of an age to consider it
	- he/she is presumably not the one the LORD has for you, so you're 
	  better off making a clean break 
	- Plenty more fish in the sea...
	- Better to realise that you're not suited now, than after exchanging 
	  vows before the LORD.
But you don't put it like this to the offspring in pain.  You have to walk 
some of the road with them, and know when to give them space to mourn the 
catastrophy, and when to encourage them to return to participation in human 
endeavour.  And not seem shocked when suddenly they have forgotten the 
erstwhile beloved was ever more than a casual acquaintance, or suddenly 
find that the world has moved its axis of rotation, to centre on someone 
else.....

Rather different from struggling with 'new maths', which one presumes *has*
an answer, however elusive.  And even the relationships stress is by no
means the most complex or demanding of issues, as others will witness...

								Andrew

    .151
    
    Plenty of wisdom in there, Bro!  Thanks.

    .151  Hey, gramps.  What was that snide remark directed at me supposed
    to mean?  Huh?  huh huh huh?  Geesh.  Picked on by old people..
    
    
    Donna

�    .151  Hey, gramps.  What was that snide remark directed at me supposed
�    to mean?  Huh?  huh huh huh?  Geesh.  Picked on by old people..
    
;-)

Hey, 46 isn't THAT old, really.  Some people live a LOT longer than that.
Twice as old isn't really rare.  I might only be half-way there!

Mind you, it's getting a bit of a struggle...

						Gerry

>Hey, 46 isn't THAT old, really.

My nephew, Tom, said you weren't THAT old, too.  ;-)

� My nephew, Tom, said you weren't THAT old, too.  ;-)

Nice of him!!!  Now if you want to look at a *real* oldie,


						look at my car...

	I was reminded of this this morning while listening to
	a praise tape:

	A couple weeks ago, as Emily was just beginning her potty
	training (successfully completed now, thank you Lord!),
	she was taking quite a long time.  I decided to go get
	dressed, and told her to call me when she was done.

	Well, she dillied and dallied, and was singing some songs
	to herself that I couldn't comprehend, and just as I was
	about to "hurry" her along, she began to sing more clearly.

	I stood outside the bathroom, and heard her sing, "Our
	God Reigns" quite loudly!  I turned and walked away - after all,
	where better to sing praise than in the "throne" room ?  ;-)

	Karen

    My children are really questioning a lot of things about God since Ed
    died.  They have a hard time comprehending his death with God's love...
    
    So, I opened up the scriptures and began talking to them about heaven
    and how wonderful a place and that there are no tears in heaven.  I
    reminded them that Ed was in a better place for him.  
    
    One evening, Clayton who just won't go to sleep without a light on
    began telling me that he was scared to go to bed with the light on in
    the hall.  I told him he shouldn't be afraid that Ed was in heaven with
    God right now and that even if something happened, Ed was there on the
    other side to reach out for him.  He looked stunned at my words for a
    moment, became thoughtful and went to bed.
    
    Losing someone as young as Ed who was also a strong role model to my
    children still continues to effect our lives almost daily.  Sometimes I
    ache inside, sometimes I rejoice, and sometimes I feel numb.
    
    As Ed's father said, keep living, keep going, it's what Ed would want.
    
    

This is the place for pain and tears, to teach us, develop us, through the 
opportunities and works God brings to our hands.  But it's only temporary.
God doesn't *want* us to feel our 'main' place is away from Him.  Where Ed 
is, is 'home', in the reallest sense imaginable.  One glimpse there, and 
we'd none of us wish to be back here .... except to do what the One Who 
makes 'there' SOoooooo good has for us to complete.

'Here' is the factory floor, the assembly line, the getting ready.
'Heaven' is where we finally get to enjoy all that we were *really* created
for.  With Him.  The battle's over, the feasting begins...

Paul knew this, in Philippians 1:21-26, where he's itching to enter the joy 
of the LORD's presence, but knows he's got to finish the job first.

When we've finished all that God has for us to do here, there's no need for 
us to hang around in such a miserable environment, pestered by sin and 
sadness.  It's the end of school; you can go home!

In Genesis 5 there's a list of father & oldest sons from Adam to Noah and 
his sons.  Most of the clear 900 years.  Some only get into the 800's
Except Enoch.  He only gets a measly 365, in verse 23.  Because God took 
him.  Not as a punishment, but because of God's great love for him :
"Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."
I think God's great heart just longed to share heaven with this early 
disciple, who'd learned to love Him...  And it was a *treat* for Enoch, not 
a punishment.... ;-)

  "...aliens and strangers on earth .... looking for a country of their own 
   ... longing for a better country, a heavenly one.  Therefore God is not 
   ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them."

				Hebrews 11:13 .... 16


							God bless
									Andrew

	Just had to share this, as it warmed my heart and gave me
	encouragement...

	Last night on the way home, Emily wanted to sing Christmas songs.
	We started the refrain from "Oh Come All Ye Faithful", and Emily
	joined in.  Jamie and I stopped singing, and she sang it all
	by herself.  She even got louder on "Chri-ist, the Lord!"

	It was the most beatiful carol I've ever heard ;-)

	Then, when we sat down to eat, Emily begged to say Grace, as
	usual.  Normally, she mumbles two unintelligible words, then
	shouts Amen.  Last night, we bowed our heads, and Emily said,
	"Thank you God for the hot dogs.  Thank you Jesus for the food.
	Thanks, Amen!"

	Jamie and I were floored!

	Two nights before, I had taken down a prayer guide and prayed
	for my kids, and asked God for to help me be a better mother.
	I felt much more encouraged last night!

	Karen

Thats lovely, Karen!  Wonderful to see a response awakening in answer to 
prayer...

							Andrew

    It's a truly wonderful thing to hear kids pray.
    
    If *I* find it encouraging, how do you think God feels about it?  8~)
    
    I take great store by what my kids pray for 'cause when a couple of our
    friends were looking for work (at different times), Simon prayed
    consistently every night for them - and they both found jobs!
    
    Paul

� Simon prayed consistently every night for them - and they both found jobs!

Paul, when Simon's done with you, d'you think you could mention my lads, 
Dermot and Fergus to him... ;-}

								Andrew

    Pam,
    
    Thanks so much for sharing this with us...what a wonderful reminder
    that our children are His children. 
    
    I forget sometimes...
    
    Nancy

	Hey Nance, it was me, not Pam!

	We don't even look alike!

	;-)

    oooppssss well you can never call me a respecter of persons! :-)
    
    blush

    I want to share something with you that I learned about on Thursday
    last week.  This is something that came as quite a shock to our family.
    This information came from our good friends in town here.

    Their oldest daughter informed them a couple of weeks ago that she was
    pregnant.  She is 21 years old, single, and going to college.  We were
    shocked to hear this because, not only is this a strong Christian home,
    but we never would have expected this from her.  She always seemed to
    be the one who would "save herself".

    Here is how she described what happened:

    She and the father had been dating for a little while (he is not a
    Christian).  She rebeled and told God that she was tired of Him being
    in control, that she was curious about sex, and that she was taking
    control for a while.  They took precautions to make sure that nothing
    happened and used a condom.  She described the guilt she felt when they
    began, but continued anyway.  Unfortunately, the condom broke.  She
    said that she knew then that she was not in control at all, that she
    was wrong.  They had sex only once and now she is 10 weeks pregnant!

    She has decided to have the baby, that abortion is not an option, and
    that she didn't think that she could give it up for adoption.  She also
    has decided that she is not going to marry the father since she doesn't
    love him at all, and that she doesn't want him to have anything to do
    with the baby (I'm not sure if she can do this legally), although he is
    aware of the pregnancy.

    What an unfortunate way to bring about such a dramatic long term affect
    on your life for just a few moments pleasure.  We have spoken long and
    hard to our daughter (13) about this and what this girl has done to her
    life because of her rebellion.

    I must say that I have to admire her parents, especially her dad.
    Apparently, the daughter was sitting at home and obviously struggling
    with something, when her mom asked what was wrong.  She told her mom
    that she had better "get dad" because they all "had to talk."  They sat
    together and she began sobbing.  The first words from her dad were, "It
    doesn't matter what has happened, we will still love you."  What a
    shock it must have been.

    Why am I telling you this?  Because, like us, it may be useful in
    instructing your own children.  I also think that the family could use
    some prayer at this time.  The daughter, that she would forgive
    herself.  She is currently struggling with the thought that God will
    not forgive her for what she has done.  The mom, she has MS and it is
    getting worse.  The added stress will not be good for her.  She is also
    going through a "What did I do wrong?" period right now.  The dad, who
    is always reserved and quiet, that he doesn't internalize any of the
    suffering that he may be feeling.  The family, a younger brother and
    sister.  

    I'm not sure why I didn't enter this in the prayer topic but felt that
    it should go here.

    Ron

    
    A conversation Nathan had yesterday with his 'little friend' at 
    school.
    
    Wren:  Nathan, if you want to marry me when we grow up, you have
           to love country music.
    
    Nathan:  I don't.  But, if you want to marry me you have to 
             love Jesus.
    
    Wren:  I do, but if you love Jesus, you have to love fish.
    
    Nathan:  What?!
    
    
    
    
    Later, that day.
    
    Nathan:  Mom, Wren says that you have to love fish if you
             want to love Jesus.  Is that true?
    
    Mom:  Um, No.  Why did she say that?
    
    Nathan:  She's  Catholic and she says you have to love fish.
    
    Mom: Ohhhhhhhhhh.  I get it!
         (insert explaination of lent and the observance of 
          not eating meat aside from fish on Fridays)
    
    
    
    
    This is not a slam on Catholicism.  I think it illustrates
    the funny way the 7 year old mind works sometimes.
    
    Pam
       

There's a note for that... ;-) ;-) ;-) 
					enjoyed
							&

    Cute!
    
    I'm amazed with the stuff kids come out with!
    
    Karen

    I had a discussion this week with both of my boys regarding Aids and
    HIV.  I was surprised at the amount of misinformation they had and as
    well lack of understanding  just what *is* the disease.
    
    Overall we spent 1.5 hours me with marker in hand diagramming and
    writing things on a white board.  I found this to be one of the most
    positive experiences of parenting that I've enjoyed so far.
    
    I used a book entitled FACTS of LIFE which have pop out pages of both
    the male and female reproductive organs, including pull tabs that make
    certain parts move.  But no it doesn't simulate intercourse!!!
    
    However it does have a sperm page with a pull tab that makes the sperm
    wiggle!  The kids were a little concerned they had something ALIVE
    developing in them.  But as we moved on in the discussion, they
    became more comfortable not only with their own bodies, but in
    understand a woman's.
    
    The kids asked *so* many questions... and were blunt as usual with
    their own personal experiences. :-)  As limited as they are, what a joy
    to have the opportunity as a parent to guide them in this way.
    
    The end result was a question I asked them.
    
    What is safe sex?
    
    Their responses were unanimous.
    
    
    WAIT... be a virgin, marry a virgin  or HAVE blood tests.
    
    

	Nancy, that was incredible! Thanks for posting it.



Glen

    What's the name of the book?

    FACTS of LIFE

    Is it in a Christian bookstore or some other common place?

    It's in a common place.  I bought mine actually at a sciences museum
    bookstore.  When I get home, I'll post the authors.
    
    It's an excellent book to use in demonstrating human sexuality.  It is
    not lewd at all.
    
    Nancy

"Facts of Life" - Jonathan Miller & David Pelham

 
My son Scott, 12, called me last night.  Seems he wants to color his hair and
his mother told him to see what I thought.  I responded "absolutely not". At
least his mother asked me this time.  With my 2 other sons she took them to
get earrings to "surprise" me.




Jim

How keen is he on it, Jim?   My #3 has been through the gamut of styles -
long, tiny pigtails, earring, dyed, layered etc, though admittedly only
after he was at college - 19+ years old.  I tried not to react much at all,
because I didn't want to slam doors of communication.  Sometimes his mother
was upset, but always got over it quick enough, when she saw *him*, and
knew that his character wasn't what she associated with earrings and long
hair!  He always tried to surprise us, and once I justabout didn't
recognise him when I met him at the station.  So I got him another earring
from a stall there...  ;-}

Last time he was home I asked him what sort of image he would need to 
project at possible job interviews (he's in final year law, looking at 
solicitor's jobs), and he said he'd get the long hair cut off before an 
interview.  When the skim underneath was pointed out, he went thoughtful, 
and since, has gone conformist ;-} [though he still has an earring].

If they're forbidden, it might take on a desirability, which they'll bottle
it up until away from parental supervision.  Better if they can share, and
get a "Can you wait until?", or (when they're 'of age'), "I'd prefer not,
but you could give it a short try."  So they feel that you're on their
side, even though your feet may be gravestone bound ... ;-) 

But it's sure nice that Kathy referred him to you.  And I guess 12 is young 
to strike out...  I do hope there's a change of heart there...

							Andrew

I think Andrew has some good points.  Also, there is temporary dye - comes
out in about 6 weeks.  Maybe that would be enough of an experience for
him.

Leslie

    My boss was telling me how she died her hair jet black as a teen and
    her parents ignored it as though nothing had changed about her.  It
    lasted till the dye came out and she never did it again.
    
    :-)  I CANNOT imagine the constraint these parents had at not
    commenting or even an eyebrow raise at seeing their blonde/red daughter
    turn jet black.

They had good self control, Nancy! ... ;-) ;-) ;-)

When Fergus & Jeremy were in their early teens, they went out (with
Nicolas) for a haircut, and opted for a crew-cut (about �" all over).  They
asked quite casually, but were apparently rather shocked at the result. 
Jeremy was concerned, because he was about to visit my parents for a week, 
and was afraid they'd take one look and send him home ;-) ;-) ;-)

They didn't....

							Andrew

    	Let him do it, and then pay his friends to laugh at him.  :^)

  Scott seemed to be pretty intent on getting it done.  To be honest, I just
 plain don't like it.  I put up with him wearing beads in his hair for several
 weeks last year and didn't like that either.  If he were 15/16 years old 
 maybe I'd feel different.  But, he has enough problems with school stuff
 right now, and I've determined to take a stand on this.



 So there :-)

    
    Good luck my friend.  I know with my neice it's tough for my
    sister to know where to draw the line.  
    
    BTW...what color did he want to dye it (and what is his hair color
    now)?
    
    Jill

 I think he wanted to dye it purple.  Right now is hair is light brown
 color.  




 Jim

    	School problems, you say?  Use that for leverage.  
    
    	Clean up the school problems, and you will withdraw your
    	opposition.  Just a suggestion.

    
    Well I guess purple is a bit of a change.  Although, it is my favorite
    color.  ;^)
    
    Jill
    

 I'll send him out to you!





 Jim

    Jim-
    
    just remember.... 'this too shall pass' :-)
    
    (that's easy to say when you don't have any kids - like me!)
    
    re: suggestion on cleaning up his act in school/bribe
    
    I had an aunt who did something similar to this...her high-school aged
    son wanted long hair and an earing...she told him he could do one or
    the other, not both.  He chose the earing.
    
    Hang tough!

    
    Send him out to me and he might come back with a purple crewcut
    with a cross shaved in the back of his head.   ;^)
    
    Jill

    :-)  Purple is my favorite color too! :-)

Jill,

	I already have the crew-cut. And purple will match my vest. Now about
the cross...

		hazza :*]

    
>    Send him out to me and he might come back with a purple crewcut
>    with a cross shaved in the back of his head.   ;^)
    
  
    ==:-O

	Jim, don't you mean

	=|=:-0   ???

    Several years ago, my brother asked my parents permission to get
    a tattoo.  They refused saying he could not mar his body in such
    a permanent way.
    
    A few days later, he came home with an earring.  He said,"Well,
    at least I can take it out if I want."
    
    I think the whole thing was a setup! 8*)

    Many of you have shared with me the struggles of raising my two boys
    without a father in the home.  You've heard about the hard times and
    the good.  I've been as honest about my failures as I can without
    feeling completely naked in front of all of you, and I've been equally
    candid about the victories... which oftimes have been seen through the
    failures.
    
    This week is the Western National Youth Conference, hosted by North
    Valley Baptist Church [my church] in which over 1300 youths are
    attending.  They have 4 preaching/teaching services in the morning, an
    afternoon activity and 2 preaching services in the evening starting at
    7PM and not ending until 10PM.  
    
    Since my Matthew will be in 7th grade next year, he has been attending 
    his first real teen activity, this youth conference.  Oh man, you
    parents who have been here will be able to indentify with what that
    means to me.
    
    When I dropped him off [first time I've EVER left him at church alone],
    there was a sudden mist in my eyes, I actually felt different about my
    son.  I no longer saw him as my boy, but my young man.  Thoughts of
    letting go and letting him have more choices and loss of time with him
    began to go through my brain at lightening speed.  As I breathed a deep
    sigh within my heart knowing that I've done my best to teach him the
    right things in life and pray that he hasn't too many growing pains [in
    the maturation process].
    
    Now to get to why I started this note;  Last evening in the service the
    youth evangelist spoke about separation, holiness and producing a
    generation of men and women who are fundamental (Bible-Believing,
    Evangelistic].  He spoke about many things regarding lifestyles and
    choices that our children face and one of the topics was sexuality.  He
    then spoke about abortion and he began to show the aborted fetuses that
    were discovered in garbage cans behind abortion clinics.
    
    Because of the size of the auditorium, I was unable to be in view of
    these photographs and was listening by radio.  He then spoke of the
    freedom of virgin marrigages and one spouse.  He also spoke on how the
    world's view of the family is changing and that we should remain firm
    in God's definition of the family; Adam, Eve and their offspring.  
    
    I was standing in the parking lot when this service was over and never
    in the 11 years of youth conferences have I seen a generation of youth
    pour out in a more somber, thoughtful and tearful manner.  Young men
    from the ages of 12 to 19 were weeping.  The young women were holding
    each other.  My heart ached for the one who already had been down the
    road of an abortion [and in numbers this size you know there are], and
    prayed that healing would begin in their lives immediately.
    
    Adult women saw me and hugged me as they wept because their children
    had made decisions before the Lord that night for purity, separation
    and godly living and some of those kids had not been living that way
    before.
    
    When I saw Matthew, his tender heart had been pierced, and just for a
    moment I wondered if he was ready for this and then his words comforted
    my heart.
    
    "You know Mom, I made decision not to have sex [and then he smiled],
    well actually I think I'll NEVER have sex!"  
    
    His face turned back to a serious expression and he went on, "Mom, I
    went forward tonight to get my heart right with God and to ask Him to
    help me be a better brother, son and Christian."
    
    I asked God this morning to help me help my son and to give me wisdom.
    
    Nancy

    PTL Nancy,
    I'm a little misty.  I always get encouraged when I hear testimonies
    about how the Lord is working in these conferences.
    
                                          -JimGle-
    

You always get me with your testimonies, sis.

Praise the Lord.

Paul

Snarf

    Praising God with you, Nancy!

	Praise God!

	Now, a (much smaller) tale of my two kids.

	Andrew has learned his first song.  No, it's not Mary had a little
	lamb, or Old McDonald.  He's been watching while Emily watches
	a Donut Man (Robert Evans) video that we borrowed from church.
	There is a song about David and Goliath on the video.  Lately,
	Andrew can be heard (nearly all day ;-) ) singing, "Goliath, boom
	boom, Goliath"  We even sing it to him to calm him down if he's
	fussy!

	Also, yesterday, when I picked Emily up from daycare, Pat told me
	"The kids were playing today, and one said, 'come on, we're going
	shopping!'  Emily replied, 'No we're not, we're going to Church!"

	;-)

    Nancy,

    in praise with you, and support you, and Matthew, in prayer.

    Karen,

    :') - seems like Emily will be safe with the credit card when she
    marries my Joshua :')

    Harry

	Don't be so sure, Harry - she hasn't hit her teens yet!

	;-)

    
    That's cool Nancy.  I think one of the neatest services at our church
    each year is our "True Love Waits" service.  The youth go through a
    series of films, discussions, and praying beforehand.  They sign 
    commitment cards to stay pure too.  During the service they come
    forward with their parents or someone who is like a parent to them
    and they make a vow.  Then their parents make a vow to do whatever 
    they can to help them, to be there for them, and to listen to them.
    The kids wear a TLW ring on their wedding ring finger as a symbol of
    their commitment.  It's really thrilling to watch kids make this 
    decision. 
    
    Jill

    
    Oh and I can't help adding about the recent adventures of my adorable
    (almost 3 yrs old) nephew Benjamin.  They were visiting from New Mexico
    just a few weekends ago.  We had went to my mom's church and afterwards
    went out as a family to eat.  We were deep in conversation and Bennie
    was saying something and finally David (my bro, his dad) stopped to 
    hear what he was repeating.  He saw a man with a beard and was yelling
    "Look!  The Son of God.  The Son of God!"  David turned expecting the
    guy to be across the restaurant, but he was sitting right behind him!
    Ben kept saying it and David tried to quiet him down.  As we were
    walking to our cars a little later he said to his Mom "I have to tell 
    you something."  She asked what it was and he replied "It was him in 
    there Mommy...it was the Son of God."  Unfortunately, he got a little 
    messed up from here because there was a second guy with a beard, so he 
    added "There were two Sons of God Mommy."  She explained that there was 
    only one and that wasn't him, but he said "Yes Mommy, there are two!"
    She chuckled and figures in time he'll understand.  He has such a sweet 
    heart.  The Easter video is one of his favorite despite all the Disney
    and Barney stuff he watches.  :-)
    
    Aunt Jill

    For the 'cute' file...

    Karen has been reading to Joshua (and Nathan because he doesn't like to
    be left out) from the Children's Bible each night before bed.

    They finished the book last night. And Joshua said "Is there another
    one?" (i.e. is there a sequel to the Bible?) I had to chuckle when
    Karen told me.

    Harry

Hey - that's great Harry.  That should always be our reaction when we read 
the Bible - what's God doing next?  And be ready to volunteer...!

							Andrew

While on our mission to Gunnadah I was asked at the last minute to read Daniel
Chapter 3, prior to the study from that chapter. 

The leader of the study remarked how well I read considering the short time I
had to prepare, and what a good example it was.

I replied the I has "practiced the passage by reading it to my kids" which
caused a road of laughter. The some one made to comment that "reading the bible
to my kids was an even better example" and the laughter changed to applause.

Peter.

    Yesterday (Sunday) Karen and Nathan stayed at home (she may as well
    stay home in the warm, than freeze in the cr�che - and still not hear
    the sermon), and I took Joshua to church with me.

    Uh-oh - no Sunday School - it's still school holidays (school started
    back today). I was on music (playing bass - I can only count to '4'
    ;'), so Joshua had to sit with me.

    The service was set up so that the kids were made to feel a part of the
    whole thing (which was *really* great), and at one part the pastor
    asked the kids to come 'down the front'. The first one there was... my
    Joshua :')

    Anyway, during the 'talk', the pastor asked questions. The first to
    call out the answer? You guessed it - my Joshua. At first I felt
    embaressed. And then I started thinking "He _knows_ the answer to these
    questions! He's only 5 years old - and he's 'beating' some of the older
    (7 and 8) kids!"

    Embaressment gave way to pride. He got one or two questions 'wrong'.
    But at least he had a go at them. I could see the pastor getting
    'frustrated' because Josh was jumping in with the (usually) correct
    answers, and no one else was even trying.

    Also amusing was the fact that the pastor kept treading on the
    microphone cable, and Josh kept telling him he shouldn't do that,
    because he'll break it. Which, given enough abuse, it will.

    A pity the pride turned back to embaressment when Josh scratched his
    bottom by putting his hand inside his pants {blush}. :')

    That's my boy ;')

Thanks for the laugh, Harry!

Some years back, when my kids were small, in the morning service we had a
children's talk with big build-up for guessing a name.  It was a bit of a
long shot for any of the church kids to guess, and the speaker, Steve, had
spelled it out as far as : 

				Polyca 

Now the adults were on the twitch waiting for Polycarp, when my #2, Fergus
put his hand up.  I was pretty sure he didn't know Polycarp.  But I just 
had to sit and listen to Steve's even bigger build-up for this supposed 
expert on church history, before Fergus said:


							Polycanthus 

    :-) Harry, Harry, Harry!!! :-)

    
This morning we rose early as a family.  "It's summer vacation!", the 
kids would normally scream, but not this morning.  They rose stretched 
their sleepy bodies, grabbed their blankets and headed for the living 
room.  

"Come on boys, come sit down at the table.", I requested.  I brought 
down a very old book that had yellow pages and tattered edges.  Their 
eyes followed that book.  They wondered what it could be.

I smiled wryly, "Boys, this Bible was your Mom's very first Bible after 
she got saved.  It was given to me by my foster parents on June 27, 
1971, for the event of my Baptism.  Come look at all of my notes and 
markings from my studies.  Matthew, I was your age when I began to truly 
love the Bible."

I opened this almost magical Bible before them, and they strained to see 
all of my notes that I'd written in the margins.  I turned the Bible to 

1 Cor 2
  5  That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the 
power of God. 
  6  Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the 
wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 
  7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden 
wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 
  8  Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known 
it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 
  9  But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither 
have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for 
them that love him. 

I explained to them that our salvation is a mystery to those who do not 
have the Spirit of God.  That only through clear understanding of our 
own salvation can we show others the Love of God and the cross.

I also explained that there are many in this world who know the Bible's 
contents with their human wisdom and not with the Spirit's wisdom 
(v.5-8).  That they must study to the Bible themselves and not depend on 
the teachings of men or the exegesis of theologians who deny the deity 
of God.

Then we moved on to v.9.  I asked the question, "Clayton, what is the 
most beautiful thing you've ever seen?"

"You, Mom!" 

Matthew and I just rolled our eyes at each other.  Matthew spoke up, 
"Mom, he's just kissing up to you."  I nodded in agreement.  And we all 
laughed.

Soon, we talked about the things our eyes have seen, and our hearts have 
felt and ears have heard that are desirable things for us.  And then the 
truth in verse 9, none of those things compare to what God has prepared 
for those that love Him.

"Boys, do *you* love God?", I asked.

They both affirmed readily.  

"If you love Him, you'll obey Him."

Matthew chimed in quickly, "And that starts with obedience to our 
parents!"

Clayton rolled his eyes at Matthew.  We smiled [for we know who has the 
most trouble with obedience].  

Then something happened that shocked me as a mother who's been raising 
her children in the church, sends them to a Christian school and who 
they have heard pray many many times.

"Have you told God you love Him?", I asked.

"No.", they both responded.

My heart sunk, how could I have missed this in their lives.  I'm a 
praiser, hallelujah shoutin' momma and I didn't realize my children have 
never said, "I love you" to God.

"Boys, God is not some powerful figure up in heaven that is pointing his 
fingers down at rocks and splitting them with electrical currents.  He's 
not superman or a power ranger, He's our Daddy, our Abba."

I walked over to Clayton and wrapped my arms around him tight, "Clayton, 
our Father in heaven wants to hold you like this in His arms and tell 
you Clayton I love you, it was for you that I sent my son to die on 
calvary.  Please come sit in my lap, look around the throne room, all 
that I have is yours.  You are joint heir with my son, Jesus to the 
throne."

Clayton began to have tears falling down his cheeks.  I moved towards 
Matthew and put my arms around him.   "Matthew, our Father in Heaven 
wants so much to tell you that now is a critical time in your life.  
Don't turn away from the truths of the Bible, now.  Stand firm in your 
belief, remain holy, and faithful."

Then we prayed together and for the first time my boys told God they 
loved Him, and wanted to obey Him.  I told Him too.

Love in Him,
Nancy
    

 Amen

I run out of words when you post stuff like that. What a great mom you are.

Your bro,
Paul

Hi Nancy,

What a neat thing to happen!! It is wonderful that your boys listen to you.
When the Holy Spirit operates people listen. I hope you don't mind that I use
your note?? I just had a woman come up to me and ask me why I was the way I am? 
I told her I had peace in my heart. She asked - How do you get this peace? I
told her that my hope was in Jesus and that I asked him into my heart. The Holy
Spirit dwells within me. Then I have confidence that I am going to heaven. I
also mentioned that my sins were washed away too. 

You have been blessed with a compassionate heart and your words move all of us
noters to be more like Jesus.

Thanks,

Steve

    Praise God Steve!!! Testify away.
    
    and thanks ... :-)
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,

    can I send my boys over to you in a couple of years. You say that stuff
    *so* much better than I ever could.

    With tears of joy, and my heart leaping for joy after reading this...

	It's a trick, Nancy, don't do it!!!

	;-)

	Thank you so much for sharing that with us.  There is much
	to learn from it!

	Karen

    :-)  yeah Harry's like that... :-)

    	I'm not sure if this is the proper topic in which to post this,
    	but here goes.
    
    	My son Tom, 13, used to be close friends with two brothers from 
    	another Christian homeschooled family.  One boy is two years 
    	older than him, one younger than him.  Last year the older one 
    	started public high school, and Tom went to 7th grade in the public
    	school.  Shortly thereafter Tom lost interest in the older brother.
    	He never gave a reason why, he would just say that he's no fun 
    	anymore.  Instead, the brothers began hanging around with another 
    	boy in Tom's class who lives in the neighborhood and who has always 
    	been a bit of a troublemaker -- more prone than not to mischief.
    
    	The other day the three of them (the two brothers and the other
    	kid in Tom's class) were walking around, and at first Tom was
    	not interested in hanging out with them.  But later on he asked
    	permission to walk to the local Kwik Mart with them, and my
    	wife said sure, and not to get into trouble.  About 15 minutes
    	later, he came home, and was rather upset.  It turns out that
    	he left them because they were planning to steal cigarettes
    	from the store.  It turns out that shortly after starting high
    	school last year, the older brother has been smoking, and since
    	here in Colorado stores can't sell cigarettes to minors, he gets
    	his by stealing them.
    
    	To Tom's credit, he wanted no part of it.  It turns out that
    	Tom's distance from his once best friend is because of the
    	change in him since he started high school.  He used to be a
    	really nice kid.  Very academically-oriented.  Honest.  A
    	generally good kid.  But now he's more into gang culture, he
    	smokes, steals his cigarettes, has developed a real craving
    	for sexual discussion, etc.  And that's only what I now know
    	about.
    
    	For a while I could see Tom trying to keep up with this peer,
    	but it seems our diligence has allowed him to break away from
    	that friend.  I think the final cut came when he walked away
    	from the cigarette-stealing excursion.  He took some peer heat
    	from the three because of that, and I suspect that he will face 
    	further peer repurcussions once school starts up.
    
    	We've always feared Tom's moral erosion when he started school.
    	We find this experiencing to be heartening in the contrast of
    	these two kids.  At least we find it heartening to see that our
    	son has managed to (so far) hold onto the principles we've
    	worked to instill in him.  It is disheartening to see the
    	decline of his friend who used to be a quality kid.  We also
    	see that our concerns for Tom were not unfounded, and we are
    	all the more committed to diligence in Tom's guidance.
    
    	Now my wife and I are faced with some decisions.  We wonder if
    	we should mention this incident to the kid's mother.  We know
    	them well as friends and fellow homeschoolers (the rest of our
    	respective kids are all still homeschooling.)  We wonder if it
    	is our business to do so.  We wonder if in doing so we will
    	bring the wrath of peer disdain all the more on Tom's shoulders.
    	Silence means tacit complicity in the boy's decline.  (And his
    	younger brother, who was always a bit on the unruly side, is
    	surely to follow his big brother's example!)
    
    	We had a wonderful discussion with Tom last night.  He knows
    	how proud we are of his decision.  We let him know how much
    	guts it took.  He knows we are behind him.  He's bummed about
    	losing what used to be a very good friend.  He feels bad about
    	what's happening to the kid.
    
    	I'd like to hear some ideas and thought and reactions to this
    	situation.

    I have only one question.  If the situation were reversed and your son
    was the one who was stealing cigarettes... would you want to be told by
    one of his friend's parents?
    
    Nancy

    P.S.
    
    I'm absolutely praising God for your son's show of character! Way to
    Go!!!

Joe,

Just out on my way for today, but wanted to assure you of my prayers for 
Tom as he lives out his decision.  God's hand is surely on him to protect 
him from being swallowed up in this culture, and God will not let go of him 
having brought him this far.  Has Tom made a Christian profession as yet?

Particularly with the other family being 'Christian homeschooled', I would 
think they would wish to be aware of the situation, and out of Christian 
love I would feel it a responsibility to let them know as gently and
lovingly as possible.  However, unless you know them very well (and maybe
even if you do), it woud need to be taken very delicately, because unless 
they are already aware, their natural reaction would be to deny that their 
son(s) could possibly be involved, and take a very defensive attitude.

If it were possible to talk to them casually on a practical basis as 
Christians together, it woud help to understand where they are coming from. 
Then to ask how their sons are spiritually, before saying that you're 
concerned about activities you've heard about, which their sons may be 
involved in.

If they at any stage indicate defensiveness, or that they're uncomfortable 
to talk at a spiritual level, they're not going to be able to accept being 
told about their sons' situation.  However, they could even be open enough 
to admit their own previous concern about their sons spiritual state or 
companions, and be glad to share.

Praying with and for you all

						In Jesus' love
								Andrew

    <<< Note 67.224 by 43755::YUILLE "He must increase - I must decrease" >>>

> Has Tom made a Christian profession as yet?

    	A very good question that also has bearing in all of this.
    
    	No, he really has not.  He goes along with his religious 
    	education to keep the peace and not have a confrontation
    	with mom and dad, but we know, and he has actually been 
    	pretty clear in telling us (in spite of his attempts to
    	go along with it to keep the peace) that he is struggling
    	with his faith journey.  
    
    	He relates to me much more that to his mom because I was
    	very much like he is (and I still am in some ways), unlike
    	Mom.  After yesterday I have much more hope for him and
    	his Christianity than I did a week ago.  He feels good
    	internally about his decision.  Hopefully he can understand
    	and accept what it means to be "persecuted" for Christ's 
    	sake.  Hopefully he finds it to be the better path.

    
    Does Tom think that his friends are in need of help?  Would he
    be willing to take some heat in order to allow their parents to
    be aware of the situation and to have the opportunity to help
    their sons?  
    
    I keep trying to figure out where this attitude I have and others
    have of not telling their parents because it might upset them 
    comes from.  I think it's probably more from experience rather
    than a biblical premise.  I think the loving thing to do is to
    first pray, listen for God's guidance, and to tell the parents
    what happened and share your concern for their boys.  Make no 
    judgement on their response.  Hopefully, they are not completely
    unaware of their sons problems, but parents do tend to take things
    like this personally because they feel it reflects on their 
    parenting skills.  Don't take a negative response as a bad sign,
    sharing with them will still serve to heighten their awareness.
    
    The other option is to personally talk with these boys about the
    road they are on.  
    
    And I think it would be good to include your son in praying for them
    even if it's that he hears you mention your concern for the boys
    around the dinner table.  I think that might impress upon him that
    you're not just "trying to run his life" but that you believe that
    God's principles make good sense for everyone.
    
    God bless.
    Jill

    Joe,
    
    Did you miss my question in here?  

    	re .227
    
    	Oh, no, Nancy.  I didn't miss it at all.
    
    	I took it as a rhetorical question that hit me between the
    	eyes like a brick.
    
    	I've heard that exact same question from others in my group
    	whose Christian judgement I respect.
    
    	To answer the question, yes, I would want to know.  And through
    	your question (and the same from others) I feel pretty certain 
    	what we need to do.
    
    	I suspect that the parents of the boys would have asked me
    	the very same question had I told them the same story about
    	someone else's boys.

	Joe,

	My only suggestion would be to include Tom on the decision,
	at least enough to get his opinion.  Otherwise, he might
	feel betrayed at having confided in you, and might think
	twice the next time.

	If he disagrees with your decision, you'll need to explain
	to him that you respect his input, but need to proceed.

	We all hope and pray that our children will trust us as
	confidants, especially in the teen years.  I'd want to be
	extra careful not to harm that trust.

	Karen

    	Karen --
    
    	Excellent point.  We intend to raise the issue with the
    	parents.  We just haven't stepped beyond our fears, nor
    	have we had an appropriate opportunity to do it.  One
    	of our fears is precisely what you've mentioned, and
    	from day-1 we discussed this issue with Tom and he has
    	asked that we not talk to the parents.  Still, we intend
    	to discuss it with them, one way or another, and we can
    	only hope that by that time Tom understands why we must
    	do it, and that he agress to it -- if only grudgingly.
    
    	Joe

    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!
    
    ITS BAAAAAAAACK!
    
    Sibling rivalry....
    

    Nancy,

>                       -< Not one hair left on my head >-

    nice style, but I'm not sure it'll catch on :')

    Nancy Faye!

    re:
>>               Hey I get enough short jokes elsewhere!

    you mean here?

    

    don't you get short with me :')

    

    * Harry rolling on the floor with laughter :'D

    I have been experiencing a real change in my oldest son lately.  It
    must have something to do with the fact that he started 7th grade
    today.  He's starting to smell funny, and a faint mustache is appearing on
    his upper lip.  What is it that happens to a boy in puberty that causes
    them to change from that sweet smelling baby to a
    gotta-have-deoderant-or-don't-lift-up-your-arm young man?
    
    It's funny watching this guy who used to hug my waist, show his
    masculinity by touching the top of every door frame in the house just
    cause he can, then grin facetiously back at me and say, "Mom, can you
    do that?"  Hey I get enough short jokes elsewhere!
    
    This is a special but very hard time for parent and child.  Its a
    transition, you know the dreaded "C" word, called change.  "I don't want
    to stop kissing your cheek in public!" And, "Of course you can have the
    front seat of the car all the time now that you are a teenager and the
    oldest." :-)  
    
    I was really beginning to feel the stress of the change not too long
    ago so I decided to have a talk with my son.  After all his attitude
    was just getting too stubborn with all this, "But Mom, I'm older now!"
    stuff that was being thrown at me.  I was prepared to put him in his
    place, right back in diapers! 
    
    I took one look at his face, his already bigger than Mom's stature and
    with big old tears in my eyes, I said, "Son, I need you to understand
    that its hard on your Mom watching you grow up.  I'm not used to all of
    this yet, but if you'll have patience with me, I'll try harder at
    letting you grow up.  I really understand that there are things that I
    need to change to help you with your changes, so don't be so hard on
    me, okay?  And I promise I'll do better."
    
    He stood up with this somber look on his face, began to turn red in his
    face, and grinned sheepishly and said, "Mom?"
    
    "Yes, son."
    
    "I love you!"
    
    My heart filled up with all the love I felt the day he was born.
    
    About 5 minutes had past, I had gone about preparing dinner when my son
    yelled from the other room "Mom, Clayton won't stop touching my stuff!"
    
    Unfortunately, some things never change.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    hey Nanc...if it will help, my Sunday School teacher said that age
    20 seems to be the year of no longer being accountable to your 
    parents in the Bible.  That gives ya 2 more years than this society
    gives ya.  :-)
    
    Jilla

	Two cute stories from the weekend:

	I was shopping with the kids on Saturday, and we walked into
	the "garden shop" area of the store.  Emily told me it was like
	a garage.  The following conversation ensued.

	Emily: Mommy, it's scary in here.  I want to go in the store.

	Me: You don't have to be scared, Emily.  Mommy's here with you
	    and besides, we have our angels with us.  Remember, God has
	    sent his angels to protect us ?

	Emily: Yeah!  Oh, (giggling) he tickled me !

	Me: Who, the angel ?

	Emily:  Yeah, he tickled me!  He's silly!

	
	***********************

	Yesterday, Jamie and I went to a wedding.  My niece babysat.
	After her nap, Emily asked where Mommy and Daddy were.

	Jeanne told her, and Emily said, "Is God with them ?"  Jeanned
	replied, "Yes."  Then Emily said, "And God will bring them home
	safely ?"

	;-)

	Emily is 3.

    Out of the mouths of babes.  If only we can get the faith of this 3
    year old.  

    amen

    
    	Andrew has been sitting in his car seat repeating some words
    	over and over lately.  I couldn't figure it out, until Emily
    	told me "He's just singing, Mommy!"
    
    	So, I listened more closely, and he was singing , "God... Me...
    God...Me..."
    
    	After a bit of thinking, I asked, "Andrew, can you sing, 'God is
    	so good'?"
    
    	to which he smiled, and sang, "God...me...God...me"
    
    	;-)      
    
    	

    .241
    
    :-)  God gives us children so that we can KNOW how to be one with Him.
    
    Thanks for that smile, Sis.
    Nancy

    I heard of two really good ideas at church last night.  Actually both
    were chain links leading up to Christmas.
    
    You need to make a paper chain with one link for each of the days left
    until Christmas.  
    
    The first idea was for this to be a chore chain.  Each day the child
    does a special helping chore and gets to rip off one chain.  Both my
    kids (who hate doing any work) loved this idea last night and insisted
    on doing their first chore right away!  It was a pretty white and green
    chain that my youngest actually made and he's only 4.
    
    The second idea is to make a special treat for the kids for each day
    leading up to Christmas.  For example, one day would be to go shopping
    for a gift for Dad, another would be to bake cookies, another would be
    to visit Grandma, stuff like that.  It can be more basic things too if
    you make it a cute poem.  For example, the woman presenting this has a 
    babysitter named Noel. So one day, it says get a visit from the first
    Noel.  You know cute stuff like that.                       
    
    Jill2

    I like it!

    I babysat for a friend of mine tonight who has two girls ages 11 and 6. 
    My boys are now 13 and 9.  In the car I asked the question, "What are
    Matthew, Mark, Luke and John commonly called as being the 4 ?
    
    Sarah:  Apostles
    
    Yes, Sarah that is what they are, but in the Bible what are those books
    referred to as being?
    
    Clayton:  I know I know I know!!!
    
    
    The Gossips!!!

    
    8*)  Cute!
    
    

    Whew!  Long time no write in here.
    
    When I started this note my boys were much younger and the
    complications of growing up were minor.  Oh the sibling rivalry began,
    but it too has changed over the years.
    
    While not as alarming, and mostly subdued, it is still there.  I've
    learned that self image is VERY important and begins as soon as they
    are born.  The words we use and the inflection in our voices tell our
    children who they are.
    
    I am so saddened by my own failures in this area.  As a divorced
    parent, who finds herself rushed 95% of her life, I must confess to
    allowing fatigue, monthly cycles and pressure allow for negativity in
    the way in which I have treated my children.
    
    I also have to say that I spend a greater portion of my time
    encouraging my children and offering them emotional and spiritual
    support than I do ragging on them.
    
    But man oh man today was not one of them... in the next note, I am
    going to give the dialogue of what happened but to set the stage, let
    me say that mornings are never fun with a teenager.

    Night before:  Rafael calls Nancy to tell her that Matthew forgot his
        mathbook at his house [boys go w/father everyday after school].
        Nancy says she won't go pick it up as Matthew needs to suffer the
        consequences for irresponsibility.  
    
    5/3/96
    
    Actors:  Mother - Nancy
             Son 1  - Matthew, age 13
             Son 2  - Clayton, age 09
    	     Father - Rafael
    
    Scene - early morning preparations for work and school
    
    Setting - Mother in her bedroom getting ready for work
    
              Matthew - in the ironing room ironing a shirt
    
              Clayton - in his bedroom putting on clothes his mother
                        ironed for him
    
    Phone rings, Mother picks up phone.  Father says that mathbook was
    delivered and is on the front porch so matthew won't get behind in his
    work.  Mother says she won't give mathbook to son, it only reinforces
    his forgetfulness. [history:  common occurence for Matthew].
    
    Mother goes into her room to finish dressing for work.  All of a sudden
    she hears two boys fighting.  She walks out and the two of them are
    fine, but grumpy with each other.  She separates them.
    
    Matthew goes to mother and informs her that he has a progress report in
    his locker that if he doesn't have a note signed by a parent that we
    know what was on the report he will get 6 demerits [which will give him
    detention after school].   Mother asks what is on the report.  She is
    told that there are 4 current events past due to his teacher.
    
    She refuses to write a note without seeing the actual report.  Son
    becomes very upset as he knows the consequences of not only the
    detention but having to face his father.  And then proceeds to lecture
    son in a not so positive way.
    
    I know I did right as far as the action is concerned in not giving in
    to signing for a paper that I have not yet seen.  But how do you not
    get into the horrible lecture mode?
    
    Aaargh...
    
    I am concerned about my oldest son's self image.. I sense that a lot of
    the lack of responsibility in him comes from not believing that he is
    whole.  The divorce has been an incredible offset to him.  In an
    unusual set of circumstances, he is the only kid in his peer group with
    divorced parents.
    
    And the divorce has caused fragmentation in both the boys lives. 
    Shuffled back and forth between two homes that [fortunately mostly
    agree, but are different].  
    
    Anyway, if anyone is thinking about a divorce and you've got kids, I
    pray that unless the situation is horribly abusive that you would not
    act too hastily....
    
    Long term result of divorce on children is extensive... no matter how
    stable you think you are with your kids.
    
    I know this situation seems trivial above... but that's because you're
    seeing it as "an incident", unfortunately, it is not "an incident", but
    a regular occurence.
    
    With love,
    Nancy
    
    
    
    
    

    On another note!!! 
    
    Clayton is playing baseball this year and he's having an awesome time. 
    It was so cool watching him last night!  They had an awesome, awesome
    game... 21 to 2 in their favor.  And considering they have lost their
    last 4 games, it was a relished win with the manager taking them out
    for pizza!
    
    Clayton's stats have been incredible, 9 out of every 10 times he gets
    on base he scores.  He has an incredible amount of RBIs and his batting
    average is 385.
    
    And you know, he's just having fun...
    
    

    Julie's softball team is having fun too but their scores are usually
    4-40 (not in their favor)!  :-)
    
    Jill
    

    
    Nancy,
    
    I am one in agreement with you.
    
    To me there is no such thing as divorce (as in things end)
    only a marriage that has all the bad and none of the good.
    
    The damage that is done to the children is reprehensible.
    
    Bob

    
    	I took the kids to the park Saturday.  Emily was pushing
    	her "friend" David on the swing.  After a few minutes, I said
    	to Emily, "Emily, you know, I can't see David."  (He's pretend!)
    
    	She replied, "Oh, that's because he's over there, feeding the
    	ducks with Jesus!"
    
    	;-)
    
    

    :-)

    What to do about athlete's foot?
    
    Does anyone have any wisdom... my little guy is having cracked feet and
    shriveled up toes with lots of pain.  I bought him an over the counter
    cream menthozolate... or sumpin like that.
    
    I don't allow him to wear the same shoes every day, he switches shoes.
    
    So, any other suggestions?

    Hi Nancy,
    
    This may seem obvious, but I've seen many people miss it. Have you
    asked the Lord what He would have you do, if anything?
    
    In His love,
    
    -- Daryl

    Well, Daryl,
    
    Based on the replies in here looks like I'd be better off asking God!
    
    :-)

    
    	Lotrimin creams work great.
    
    

    I can't believe there's not one man in this conference who doesn't have
    experience with AF... :-) 
    
    Oh well...  I guess I'll go ask soapbox, I know there's men in there
    who know about AF.
    
    Nancy grinning

    Hey!
    
    give some of us unwashed time to get in :'p
    
    I have suffered from tinea (athlete's foot) - how did I get rid of it? 
    A Powder called (in Oz) 'Tineaderm', carfully dry between the toes
    (very carefully when the fungal infection is there :'/) and use the
    powder in the socks until the infection is under control.
    
    Once the tinea fungal infection is cleared up, it should be kept under
    control by keeping your toes dry - especially after bathing or
    showering. A cream may help, instead of the powder - but the important
    thing is once it is cleared up - keep those tootsies dry.
    
    H

 I have never had a problem with athelete's foot...

    Move to a dry desert climate...  Have him stay away from locker room
    showers...  Have him go barefoot, and stay out of puddles...  Have him
    wade in the ocean twice a day...
    
    Okay, so you can't move to Arizona, he has to shower after soccer practice
    and wear shoes, and the ocean is too far away.  :-\  Try wearing only
    white socks washed in hot water with bleach.  Use a clean pair every day,
    and dust the toes with the anti-fungal powder.  Consult the pediatrician
    during his next visit.  Try Hibiclens (pink anti-fungal liquid soap).
    
    						HTH,
    						Bob

    
    Oh Nancy, we go through the same thing during baseball
    season every year.  Now that it is getting warmer, we
    do what Bob suggests and, also, on the weekends he 
    strictly wears sandals (when the weather is warm enough)
    Get him some sneakers that breath, too.  Leather sneakers
    seem to be incubators.
    
    Good Luck,
    Pam

>                      <<< Note 67.261 by CUJO::SAMPSON >>>
>                               -< things to try >-

>    Okay, so you can't move to Arizona, he has to shower after soccer practice
>    and wear shoes, and the ocean is too far away.  :-\  Try wearing only
>    white socks washed in hot water with bleach.  Use a clean pair every day,
>    and dust the toes with the anti-fungal powder.  Consult the pediatrician
>    during his next visit.  Try Hibiclens (pink anti-fungal liquid soap).

    What he said!  Hibiclens is an excellent over the counter cleaner for
    this type of problem.  You may not find it on the shelf, however.  One
    time, when I used it, I had to ask at the pharmacy.  It isn't
    prescription, but they kept it back there for some reason.

    Your doctor may prescribe Nizoral, which is a cream that works great
    for serious cases.

    Ron

    Why thanks fellers! :-)  I knew there had to be a few experienced men
    in this forum.

    
    	Hey, what about me ?
    
    	I suggested lotrimin, and still do !
    

    Horror!!!  I can't believe I forgot!!! :-)
    
    /me bows humbly and asks forgiveness!

 ...and I still have never had athelete's foot..

    .267
    
    He who never has, never had either,
    but he who has, has had both... :-)

 uh..OK.

    RE: .267
    
    Jimbo, if you've never had athlete's foot, then that begs an obvious
    question! :-)
    
    RE: .268
    
    Nancy, Bob Poland talking in parables and mysteries, I appreciate and
    understand, but what in the world was this? :-)
    
    /Wayne
    
    P.S.  By the way, Tinactin cream I've found most effective, both for
    the itching and burning and the healing.  Regardless of what you use,
    you have to keep after the fungus, even when you think it's gone.  Kind
    of like sin! :-)

    Wayne,
    
    Hey, it was nonsense, but it sounded good to me. :-)x100
    
    

    
>    Jimbo, if you've never had athlete's foot, then that begs an obvious
>    question! :-)
    
 
     Well, I play softball and play SEGA golf ;-)

    Dear Nancy,
    
         If all these suggestions do not do the trick or the feet get worse,
    I would go to a doctor for council and stronger perscription. There are
    different strains of athlete's foot, some can be quite nasty and tough
    to get rid of. I had a sever case years back which I would not even
    want to begin to discribe in detail. So bad for a while I could not
    even walk. I sincerly hope your kiddo's is not as bad. Keep us posted!
    
                            all best in Christ's love....Jack Perry
    
    P.S. I will talk to a Great Physician right now, you know the one who
         specializes in washing of feet. :^) 
    

    RE: .272
    
    Ah, that answered one question.  The other is, have you ever gotten
    your feet wet? :-) :-)
    
    SEGA golf?  Let no one question athleticism again! :-)

    
>    SEGA golf?  Let no one question athleticism again! :-)


     ;-)  Hey, I can play 18 holes even when it's snowing (and I can't 
     react in frustration and throw the clubs in the water!).




 Jim

    Jimbo, say it ain't so!  You wouldn't "react in frustration and throw
    the clubs in the water"--would you? :-)
    
    That's probably why you've never gotten your feet wet, i.e., you've
    never needed to recover clubs from the water! :-)
    
    Enough frivolity.  Be grateful you've never had athlete's foot!
    
    /Wayne

    What happens when you think you'll never face something with your child
    and then there you are facing it?  How does a parent recover from their
    heart rendering pain of disappointment and maybe even anger and cope
    with the situation?  Example:  A parent who has just discovered
    anti-christian materials in their teen's room.  Before any conclusions
    are jumped to, this has not happened to me... but it could.  I've now
    seen enough hurt and pain from other families to KNOW that mine is not
    immune.
    
    Anyone have experience that is willing to share?
    
    

Hi Nancy,

pray pray pray


I believe you first have to look at a couple of things:

age of the child
background of child(abuse etc.)

Then... 

react out of love, not anger. turn it into a teaching situation 
first,  not a punishment.

try to understand why?

focus on the sin, separate the sin from the child.

I guess we must all expect our kids to fail us in some way or another. 
If not at a young age then later on when they are free from our grasp.

I have two boys (17 and 21), the older had problems, the younger one 
seemed to do very well in almost everything. The older one was affected 
from my previous divorce. The younger son had a stable home (my second 
marriage) and had very few problems. 

I know that they both have been exposed to the drugs, porno etc., but 
didn't we all? Hopefully with God's grace we can positively teach when 
each new situation occurs. 

When the hammer comes down and we are shocked by it, and our reaction is not 
what we had planned to say or do. Apologize. Take a step back and do or say 
it again. Set up reachable rules and stick with them. 

By the way, my wife is a marriage and family counselor - she's the expert,
not me!!

Steve 

    .278
    
    So ask her and post *her* answer! :-) :-) :-) :-)

    So much has been happening in my life these days, that it would be near
    impossible to dump it all, but knowing me, I probably will sooner
    or later.
    
    When I started this note in March of 1993, my kids were only 9 and 6. 
    They are now [as of November], 13 and 9.  You know, children are a
    heritage of the Lord.  I thought back in March of '93 that the teen
    years were far ahead of me, but guess what?  They're heeeeerree!
    
    All-in-all I can definitely say that it hasn't been as difficult as I
    thought it would be, no its been HARDER!  Oh my son Matthew is taking
    it all in stride, a new hair here, mustache there, he's thinks these
    changes are pretty cool.  And the dreadful of all dreadfuls has
    happened, he's becoming a, a, a, well what do you call it?  It's not
    like he's a "man" yet, and he's not a little boy, and teen sounds so
    trite, but that's it, he's a teenager [said in echoing voice].
    
    What does a Christian Mom do [when she's a single mom] when her
    teenage son goes through the change.  It's funny if it was a girl, we
    could say menstrual cycle, but when its a boy, we say "change" or maybe
    "manhood", or "can get a girl pregnant now".  It has arrived so to
    speak.  
    
    For about a month, my normal affection for him began to annoy him.  
    I've always rubbed his face and kissed him goodnight.  But now all of a
    sudden my affection made him angry and withdraw from me.  I was
    absolutely devastated and not clued in to what was happening with him.
    
    I remember having a tearful conversation with him asking why all of a
    sudden I was his enemy and that I felt as though he didn't love me
    anymore.  And he looked at me with these big ol' eyes with tears and
    just said, "Mom, I love you very much."  This of course made me feel
    better and eliminated that this rejection wasn't because of something I
    did.  And then the old lightbulb came on into my brain.  
    
    And believe me, the realization that the little boy in this note that
    used to snuggle with me and make up stories about rats under our house,
    and had tickle arrests with ... those times were all gone.  There would
    be no more little boy games or stories, but now his interests would
    divert from me to those dreadful girls at school.
    
    A part of me was excited for him and yet a part of my motherhood
    grieved the loss.  I had to accept that he was different now.  And
    furthermore, I had to allow him to set boundaries for himself.  So, I
    took a deep breath and stepped back.  
    
    It's been 6 months now.  And there are still times I go up and just hug
    the fire out of him [I think out of meanness in me], but he mostly
    takes it with great pleasure as long as no-one is looking.  
    
    This is the awkward age, still a boy in many ways, but yet not.  What I
    have found though, is that by stepping back and understanding what he
    is going through, he is taking steps towards me again.  
    
    Last night the boys were having a charming contest.  They see who can
    say the sweetest thing to me that would make me get a tear.  Now this
    may sound insincere because its a contest, but its not insincere.  As a
    matter of fact, it started out as a very sincere comment made by my
    youngest son that brought oceans of tears to my eyes and then of
    course, my older son wanted to touch my heart too.
    
    So, last night Matthew [who typically isn't as smooth as Clayton] said
    to me.  
    
    "Mom, I have something that I want to say to you from my heart that I
    think you will find very charming."
    
    "Mom, you know how there's a top 10 list of Mother's.  Well, Mom,
    you're not number 4 or 5, you are number 10!"
    
    THUD!
    
    "Er, um, Matthew," I said giggling fiercely, "did you know that number
    10 would make me on the bottom of the list?"
    
    "Oh, Mom than I meant your #1!", he was rolling on the floor laughing.
    
    It took all of us even Clayton about 15 minutes to stop laughing.  
    
    Yes, a lot has changed in my home with my children since I started this
    note.  But one thing hasn't changed, the sincere love and fun that we
    have together.  May God bless us with more to come and may He bless
    each of you in your families with just a little fun as well.
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy 
    

    see why I want to come and visit you !

I'm always blessed by hearing how wonderfully you deal with your children.

Paul

    
    	Hmm, I think I need to go home and hug the stuffing out of
    	my 2 year old son!
    

    
    	Emily's becoming quite the prayer warrior!
    
    	Tuesday night at dinner, she asked Jamie if we could
    	say a prayer for his eyes.  We agreed, and she led
    	us in a prayer for healing Daddy's eyes.  After that,
    	she got down from her chair, went over to Jamie for
    	a hug, and said, "God told me he's going to heal your
    	eyes."
    
    	This morning, both kids woke up a few minutes early, and
    	were in bed with Jamie when I got out of the shower.
    	Andrew had a bit of a cough, so Emily suggested we pray
    	for him.  She thanked God for Andrew's cough ;-), then
    	prayed that he would heal him.
    
    	She's teaching me!
    

 Praise God!

Awesome, Karen.  Praise God!

Paul

    Oh boy, I'm not sure I should share this with all of you.... but it was
    so funny...
    
    Matthew is 13 and Clayton is 9.  If you go back and look at my
    entries in this note, you will find that we have a bedtime ritual
    everynight... it was called, "Snuggle Time", in which when the boys
    were little, I'd yell, "OSP!" and they would each race to their place
    beside me in bed.  Oh the times we had during snuggle time, talking,
    laughing, tickling, making up our stories, singing songs,  making
    shadown faces on the walls, etc.  We were so close then, it was as
    though I wasn't their Mom, but playmate.  
    
    And then, Matthew turned 10 and snuggle time just was never the same. 
    Oh we'd all still pile in my bed... but it was different, Matthew would
    sit down, not lay down, by the time he was 12 he quit coming at all. 
    He began a ritual of tucking me into bed and then going to his own
    room.  He still needed that hug and kiss, but he had to be in control
    of it.
    
    Matthew is now almost 14, with Clayton almost 10.  About a month ago
    Matthew when coming in to tuck me into bed, started laying across my
    bed at my feet and just talking about "things."  Matthew has always had
    such deep Bible questions and why did God questions.  
    
    But last night, it was as though OSP had been reborn.  I'm still
    laughing about it.  Of course, it is different now, but somehow
    reminiscent.  You see, Clayton came into my room first and we were
    laughing and tickling one another.   And true to being boys, they soon
    started having a contest;
    
    Clayton: Matthew can you bend your thumb back and touch your wrist,
             like this?"
    
    Matthew: Yes!  Can you look at your face without looking in the mirror?
    
    To which I about died lauhing watching them make goon faces...
    
    Clayton:  Can you do your leg like this and touch your nose on your
    knee?
    
    Matthew:  Yes!  Can you turn your tongue upside down in your mouth?
    
    Clayton:  Yes!
    
    Matthew:  Can you wiggle your ears?
    
    Clayton:  Yes!
    
    Matthew:  Harumph, well I know you something you can't do!  Can you 
              pull hair off your weenie?  
    
    
    To which Matthew exclaimed, "No you can't, because you don't have any
    hair on yours and I do!"
    
    Clayton protested under the unfair male bonding competition rules... to
    which we all were laughing so hard, I thought I'd fall out of bed.
    
     
    

    :-) :-)
    
    Jill
    

    TTLLN
    
    My 9 year old made snowflakes [big ones] out of school paper and wrote
    little messages on them to me.  Each snowflake directed me to the
    location of another snowflake, until 5 in all had been read.
    
    The messages were things likes;  To:  Mom,  From:  Clayton
    
    Snowflake 1:  You are the pearl that lays in my heart. 
    [Go to Clayton's bedroom]
    
    Snowflake 2:  You are like a Sleeping Beauty and when I kiss you,
    you're mine. [Go to Matthew's Bedroom]
    
    Snowfake 3:  You are so beautiful that no-one could take your love
    away. [Go to first bathroom]
    
    Snowflake 4:  Your lips are as red as a red, red rose. [Go to first
    bedroom]
    
    Snowflake 5:  You are so beautiful to me, you're everything I hope for.
    You are everything I need, you are so beautiful to me.