Conference yukon::christian_v7

With more than half of all marriages ending in divorce, and nearly
half of all marriages in the church ending in divorce, this can be
a good source for us all in knowing how to respond to the divorced
people among us.

Thanks, Charlie.

	Charlie,

	Just to let you know, that even though you have filed for a divorce,
	I continue to pray for you and your wife.  I'm praying that the
	Lord perform a mighty work in her, and in your relationship, to
	turn this situation around.  
	
	Love in Him,
	Karen

    
    	My son and I NOW have found a strong foundation in the Lord,
    	which should of been the base of my now defuncted marriage. 
    	We were two lost souls with a child.  Now, we are two saved
    	souls praying for the third.	
    
    	May the good Lord guide and strengthen you, your wife and 
    	your marriage.
                                    
    
    	 

I have heard that a man's second marriage usually "sticks" because of the
painful memory of a first failed marriage.  I want to understand about divorce
without having to live through one.  We watched as my brother, and also
my wife's sister killed their marriages.  We nearly witnessed another
death of marriage in another brother.  I have friends who've been through
this painful process.  

Many of these will offer advice about marriage based on their failures
(or a less painful word is "experience").  (Edison tried something
like 300 types of filaments for his electric light bulb before
he found what he wanted; cotton, wasn't it?; his was trial and error.
Marriage is not like this type of experimentation though many may have
treated it thusly.)

I have an attitude problem (confession) with those who will say,
"don't do it this way because I have and failed" rather than "do
it this way, because I have and succeeded."  I *DO* recognize the
value in these experiences, and have gained the perspective I need,
WE need, to BEGIN to minister to marriages, failing marriages, and 
failed marriage persons.

There is an ideal, and for those who fail, forgivness and the command
to go and sin no more.

I'm sorry for my attitude.  You people who have been divorced, yet 
are close to God through His Word and relationship, need to speak to 
me and people like me.  

Mark

    Boy, I relate to what you were saying about romance novels.  I have not
    read one in a year or two, but while reading them it made me very
    dissatisfied in my marriage--Mark wasn't perfect!
    
    I read a paperback book called Mother Teresa's Answers Not Promises and
    it really turned me around.  It made me realize how the books affect me
    etc.  Anyway, I'll lend it to you if you think she would read it.  I'm
    so sorry for you.  I still have temptations every now and then to read
    that kind of novEl, but am convinced its a tool of Satan that really
    does break up marriages and cause a lot of dissatisfaction where there
    should not be.  Anytime I start reading one, I become very upset with
    Mark etc etc.
    
    Write me off-line if you want the book, just in case I don't poke my
    head in this note for a few days.  
    
    
    
    Donna Huddleston @DLO
    DPDMAI::HUDDLESTON

                                  Epitaph

                        HERE LIES THE BROKEN DREAMS
                      OF A FAMILY ONCE UNITED IN LOVE



I was out of fellowship with the Lord when I met and married my unsaved 
husband on July 31, 1982.  I was pregnant and believed that it was the right 
thing to do.  

As all couples, we had our struggles. The beginning years in spite of the 
foundation on which our marriage was laid, were very rewarding.  There was a 
bond between us, a real sense of sharing and warmth.  However, the sobering 
thought that I was carrying a soul that will either spend eternity in heaven 
or in hell was drawing me back to God, especially when I felt the movement 
of my unborn child.

Then, as I began to draw nearer to God, my husband's alcoholism became 
steadily worse.  My Christian walk was less then stable as I struggled with 
sin, swaying back and forth between drinking with my husband, and then utter 
despair at having let God down.  My son was 4 years old before I finally 
surrendered my heart over to the Lord.  Another son was born as well.  By 
now, the relationship with my husband had deteriorated to the point that not 
a day passed without unkind words.  

It was during the pregnancy of my second son, that he became physically 
abusive.  Then the day came when after many threats, he told me he wanted a 
divorce.  In my heart, I wanted it too!  My children were nervous wrecks, my 
job was suffering, my friends were waning and I had gained close to 50 
pounds.  I believed his announcement of wanting the divorce released me from 
my obligation as his wife.  I filed for divorce on March 19, 1991.

Even then I knew my husband was a man that needed the Lord.  The memory of 
the closeness we once had haunted my dreams.  I still loved him in spite of 
the abuse in our marriage.  You see I was only reaping what I had sowed. To 
me, this was the result of my sin, falling away from the Lord, being 
immoral, and marrying out of the will of God that had finally caught up with 
me.

On January 14, 1992, with tears flowing down our faces, we looked at each 
other with love still effervescent in our eyes as the judge declared our 
divorce final.  Even with all of the hurt and pain that came into that love, 
it still had power to keep us connected.  That love still shared the 
unconditional gift of our children, of an uninhibited physical relationship, 
of many holidays and special times.  Yet, it was *over* with the words 
spoken, "So, ordered".  

I don't know to describe the emotions at the very hour, moment, you are 
about to hear a judge declare, "So ordered".  It was finally final, a 
heartbreaking divorce dividing mother and father and children.  

The pain was real, the rejection was real, the anger was real and the 
feeling of powerlessness was real.  The dream of one spouse, family and home 
no longer existed.  Thoughts of loneliness, financial struggles, parental 
challenges and shame that I failed in my walk with God, once again all 
flashed before me.  These feelings of loss were worse then if he had died.  
At least with death, there are no options, but with God there were options 
that could have saved this marriage.  

Powerlessness is the epitomy of emotional torture.  Yet, it is within that 
same feeling of powerlessness therein lies the answer.  By admitting that we 
are powerless over anything, or another person is exactly where God want us 
to be.  It is then, that God can do His greatest work within a person. 

Also, as a Christian, I have had to deal with the emotions of failure, 
shame, and guilt in this divorce. God promises no condemnation to them that 
know Him (John 3:17).  He wants us to find victory in all that we do, even 
our failures, for through the pain and conviction of sin, God can continue 
to mold us into vessels of unconditional love. God revealed to me that 
divorce is not the end of my Christian life, it is the beginning of 
acceptance of God's unconditional love by allowing Him to mend my broken 
heart.  

God's power became vague when I was caught up in the whirlpool of sin.  
Whether it be the sin of someone else or my own sin.  For example, when I 
pled with my husband to "understand" what HIS drinking was doing to our 
family, I believed "my wisdom" should motivate him to change.  Inevitably, 
God could not work in his life, because I was too busy working in his life.  
And God could not work in my life because I was too preoccupied with trying 
to get my husband to "just see" his sin, that I was not looking at my own 
sin.  I had bound God's hands and intervention with all of my earthly 
wisdom.  Anything that I could have, would have and currently could do, 
would only be temporary, a bandaid, but God's in the business of 
transforming lives for eternity.

Nancy
    
    [This was written on 1/14/93, the day after I went to court and my
    divorce was declared final.]

    Ooops... the previous writing was on 1/14/92...
    
    

       <<< Note 66.5 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>
                                 -< mind dump >-

>I have heard that a man's second marriage usually "sticks" because of the
>painful memory of a first failed marriage.  I want to understand about divorce
>without having to live through one.  We watched as my brother, and also
>my wife's sister killed their marriages.  We nearly witnessed another
>death of marriage in another brother.  I have friends who've been through
>this painful process.  


I've read the opposite, Mark.  Second marriages fail at an even greater 
rate than first.  I've certainly seen it in my own life, my ex-husband 
having married for the third time and my sister working on her fourth.

I'm convinced, Mark, that I would not be a Christian today if I had 
remained married.  My husband and I were on a yuppie fast track: six 
figure income, two new cars, 28 foot cabin cruiser in the marina, every 
new and expensive toy imaginable.  God had no place in our lives and it 
showed.  It wasn't until I was humbled, humiliated and on my knees that 
God reached out His loving hand and lifted me up from my despair.  He 
showed me what a mess I had made out of my life and only through 
trusting Him could it be changed.  I no longer have the six figure 
income, the boat has long since been sold and all of the toys were lost 
in the settlement.  My ex and his wife are building a huge new home and 
remain on that fast track but I have something money will never replace. 
I lost everything of material value but have my daughters and the 
knowledge of Christ.  I'm happier now than I've ever been in any point 
of my life.


Am I condoning divorce?  Certainly not.  Was it right in my case?  I 
believe so.  However, I intend to take measures to ensure that it never 
happens to me again.  Those measures include taking time to know someone 
before deciding to spend the rest of my life with him and making sure 
that the both of us realize this is a lifetime committment.  Not to 
mention maing sure he's a Christian. :^)



Sandy

        Somethings or opinions that have changed  is 
        I now detest a lot that I see on TV or at the movies that
        I would just accepted before, along with Ads in newspapers
        and magazines. I never read any Romance novels before and they
        are on my detested list also! Now don't get me wrong, maybe 
        there are some strong Christians that could read these novels
        or watch TV or see movies for just entertainment purposes 
        and put it in the right prospective. 
        
        I have never regretted getting marriage because in God's
        infinite love and grace has given me 3 of the greatest
        kids in the world. They are what is helping me from going
        to pieces.
        
        I just saw a sign on the wall here in the building talking
        about the 4 seasons of the year and it made me feel that I'm
        currently in winter and with God I have spring, new birth, 
        and summer to look forward to.

                        Thanks for reading and listening,
                        
                                Charlie
                                

    Charlie,
    
    	I just typed another note and it disappeared, but I've
    	tried again -I'm not only a baby Christian, I am novice notes user.  :)
    
    	Satan indeed has a tight grip on society.  "The Devil is the
    	master of deception and the author of confusion" (verse?)
    
    	There is so much positive out there too, beautiful Christian
    	music (Van Morrison - Avalon Sunset one of my favorites, Elvis
    	- Gospel Hymns,..), Christian Books (Hope for the Trouble Heart - Billy 
    	Graham, Twelve Steps to Spiritual Recovery - Authors=4Dr.s), 
    	Large Variety of rentable Christian videos, We have the Serenity
    	prayer, Lord's prayer, beautiful art-work - posters to decorate, bumper
    	stickers, variety of churches/fellowships,.....
    
    	Keep the faith!  
    
    

Hugs, Charlie ..... and prayers going up....  I feel your numb pain of
inexoribly going through something so personally destructive, and want to
stand with you in support, bro.... 

							love
								Andrew

    Dear Heavenly Father,
    
    I come to you right now asking that you hold Charlie in your arms.  I
    thank you for the poet who wrote Footprints, Lord, as I sense at this
    time, Charlie is being carried by you... please let him know he is not
    abandoned.
    
    Father, I ask that you would give him the strength to go through this
    pain and father, at the same time, give him the hope that that only
    comes from You as he struggles with feeling hopeless.
    
    Lord, where there is fear, let him find courage in You.  Although he
    may not understand this situation, may he understand Your love and know
    whatever burdens he bears, You are his refuge.  Though the enemy shall
    encamp against him, he can fear no evil, for You are his protector. 
    Lord, may he claim Psalms 27 today, to wait and be of courage, so that
    his heart can be strengthened in You.  In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.
    
    

    re: .-1
    Amen.

    Charlie,
    
    This note has brought back some hard memories.  The years since the
    divorce have been filled with raising my children myself.  I had
    mannaged to forget.  I was married 9 years and dated 3.5 before that
    so I can relate to the depth of the pain.  It's very important for you
    to pray thru this process.  You've got to release the situation and give 
    it to the Lord.  My X cheated on me the last 6 months of the marriage.  I
    knew it was going on as well.  At the time here in NH it was hard
    for men to get custody so I had to play a waiting game.  Being a
    typical man combined with an Irish temper you can imagine the anger
    that built up.  The Lord gave me the control I needed though the whole
    process.  It amazed me sometimes what He did.  So much could have
    gone wrong thru the divorce process but the Lord guided me and the X so
    in the end the divorce was uncontested and I got the kids.  
    
    You need to get out with Christian friends.  On account of the pain
    you will want to pull away from family and friends.  Prayer will help
    fight this urge.  It will also help you deal with the pain so you
    won't have to rely on the drugs.  You've started down the rocky road
    that many of us have gone continue to reach out I'm sure all who have
    traveled this road will agree that it help!!.
    
    I'll be praying,
    
    Tim

    Charlie,
    
    May the God of all peace comfort you in your trial.  He will comfort
    you.  Keep your mind on Him and He will keep you in His peace.  I
    understand that unwanted divorce and its related feelings is akin to death.
    If so, you must grieve fully and realize that God understands exactly
    how you *feel* and will not condemn you, rather will comfort you,
    during your trial.  As I have been told a million times, it will get
    better, easier to cope, in time.  I find this true to the extent that
    one trusts God at every moment.  Read your Bible every free moment you
    have.  It doesn't matter what book - it is all the Word of God and will
    benefit you now and forever.
    
    Grieving with you,
    jeff  

        Thank you all for your quick response and support!!!!
        I have really been touched deeply by them. sigh......
        
        I'm trying awfully hard to let God guide me through this
        whole thing. I pray that I did make the right choice to
        file for the Divorce. When I can keep my composure and
        tell the whole story I would like you all to see the path
        I went down, and tell me where I strayed from God or was
        right on track.
        
        Before anyone gets up at my house, I spend anywhere from
        1/2 an hour to an hour meditating, reading  and praying, 
        then after everyone goes to bed I spend another half hour
        or so doing the samething. Sometimes just talking as if
        he was there with me.
        
        I believe that he is truely trying to teach me somethings
        and to help me grow in him. I'm not anger at God, my wife
        or even the other guy involved, for the current pain and 
        suffering. I just pray that he can clear my emotional state
        to where I can be receptive to what he is doing in my life.
        I deeply feel he has a hold of me, its just me letting him
        by releasing the show storm to him.
        
                                        Charlie
                                        

>       Sometimes just talking as if he was there with me.
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    He is, Charlie, He is.
    
    Mark L.

Charlie, please, please, please forgive my ignorance:

>I pray that I did make the right choice to file for the Divorce

I can't think of anything except an unrepentant and umwilling 
unfaithful spouse that would cause me to file.  Now, I say this
is utter ignorance because it is a completely alien concept to
me that spouses would do things to hurt their mates enough to
strangle the bond between them.  I simply do not understand
and think I may never understand it.

Mark

Again, please forgive my ignorance.

        Just a quick entry and back ground about myself during the
        marriage.
        
        There has never been any alcohol, drugs, physical abuse, or
        verbal abuse in any way shape or form. I have always had very 
        high respect for her and have been very supportive in her plans.
        The communication hasn't always been great, but it has been 
        there in one form or another. Considerate of her feeling and
        emotions at all times. When and if we fought there was never
        any hitting below the belt. Constantly asking her if she need
        help when it looked like she was floundering.
        
        I feel, not that I'm perfect by any means and I may have some, 
        that there was a lot of past bad baggage brought into the marriage
        that never surfaced until now with her. These things were brought 
        to my attention by one of the Counselors, her mother and her 
        sister but never addressed in Counseling by the Counselor. IMHO.
        
        My budding thinking is that satan saw a likely candidate to use
        against our marriage and grabbed a hold of the situation and
        started the destruction process, of which he so is well known for.
        
                Just a start, my mind is mush, I'll continue later.....
                                        Charlie
        

        .20
        
        Mark,
        
                I guess what I was trying to say was, I hope that
        I did all that I could do to save it from ending in Divorce.
        Divorce wasn't in my vocabulary until a lot of soul searching,
        praying and counseling with my Pastor was done trying every
        avenue given to me to attempt saving it.  My Pastor told me 
        that God would let me know when enough had been done. I wanted
        Him to guide me through this whole process and not have my way
        about anything, just His.
        
        Hope this helps, don't know. Just my side of the fence.
        
                                        Charlie

.22  

Thanks, Charlie.  I don't pretend to understand but do not doubt you, either.
Does that make sense to you?

MM

                     re: <<< Note 66.22 by BSS::GUTZMER >>>
        
     > I guess what I was trying to say was, I hope that I did all that I
     > could do to save it from ending in Divorce. 

     No recriminations, Charlie. You certainly *did* do everything that you
     could to preclude the tragedy of Divorce. 

     > Divorce wasn't in my vocabulary until a lot of soul searching,
     > praying and counseling with my Pastor was done trying every avenue
     > given to me to attempt saving it. 

     See there? "There is therefore now *no* condemnation to those who are
     in Christ Jesus!" 

     > My Pastor told me that God would let me know when enough had been
     > done. 

     Which He has obviously done, has He not? 

     > I wanted Him to guide me through this whole process and not have my
     > way about anything, just His. 

     "When we walk through the waters, it shall not overflow us, when we
     walk through fire, we shall not be burned!" He *has* guided you, dear
     brother. Rest in that assurance, and be at peace. "For He ahs *not*
     given us a spirit of fear, but of love, joy, peace, and of a sound
     mind."

     God bless and keep you,

     Brian 

  Hi,

    I entered this then thought better to delete it and send it
    personally to Charlie.  Charlie asked me to enter this and he
    sent me a message which he will post here.

    Basically, I haven't discerned that the marriage is necessarily
    over and I am convicted that consideration should be given to
    that.  The mark of Christ is high, but He will never forsake 
    us though we may forsake Him.

      Hi Charlie,
    
        Is there no way to back up and salvage things?  Is it really
        necessarily over?  Can you win her?
    
        I'm sorry if these thoughts are out of line, but I've been 
        married to an unbeliever for years and we had some mighty 
        rocky times.
    
        The main thing I can say is that God revealed to me to stop 
        having expectations for my wife and begin having expectations
        for myself.  Hosea didn't place any conditions on Gomer, he just
        went out and brought her home.  And she slept with a slew of men
        (it would seem).
    
        That's the ideal for the Christian spouse in an unevenly yoked
        situation and its the ideal for Christ and His bride.  Christ
        says "I will NEVER leave you!"  We have to beat Him off.  Hosea
        exemplified this.
    
        How can there be much of any expectations on your wife???  She
        isn't armed!  She lacks agape, you have it!!  
    
        When God convicted me to be a pipe through which His love could
        better flow is when our relationship began to get better.  Sure,
        in states of sinning, I place expectations on my wife, but agape
        only gives, it does not seek its own.  And so the Lord blessed
        my with the deep conviction that its all up to ME!!!!!
    
        If this is out of line, I'm really sorry.  Let this reply be
        drowned out by every other.  But, if there is a faint heartbeats
        of a chance to BACK UP and not go through with this thing.  Get
        on your knees and ask Christ what His high calling is.
    
        Yeah, He allows divorce if there be infidelity.  But, His is a
        higher calling than that as Hosea exemplifies.  
    
        All I'm saying is that if this divorce is absolute 100% because
        of your wife's wants - fine.  But, if this divorce is something
        that is requiring of your wishes, I don't know...
    
        Charlie, I don't know.  I just wanted the other replies tempered
        with this one.
    
        I'm sorry if I'm out of line...
    
                                                  Tony

    re: .25
    
    Tony,
    
    I must say that what you sent Charlie echos the burdens of my heart.
    My heart so longs in situations such as these that the relationship
    might be healed, and divorce avoided.
    
    Mark L.

Mark and Tony,
  Me too.  However, I have not read Dr. Dobson's "Tough Love" and there
may be possibilities and things we don't understand, about Charlie's
situation specifically, and in some cases in general.
  From what Mark tells me, he and I have wonderful marriages and know what
it is to have them, and find it completely alien to have a marriage
crumble to this point.  And Tony, I applaud your agape and hope your
wife may some day experience it for herself.
  I guess what I'm saying is: we don't know the situation and everything
that has been done to save the marriage, but based on what we know, we
know the fullness of marriage and it is worth the struggle of life.
  As I have been told off-line, there may come a point to let go, and
I am beginning to believe this, though I will let that one simmer a long
while.  I can't imagine how difficult it is for you, Charlie, to have
*had* to come to the decision to let go.  I know that Mark L, Tony,
and I do not mean you any more anguish, and we speak from our ignorance
of what has transpired, so please forgive us if we have.

Mark M.

    RE: last few
    
    There shows great empathy and love in those messages.... brought tears
    to my eyes...
    
    I'm sure Charlie experiences those same questions, over and over and
    over, until his heart breaks.... sigh... and as Mark M., mentioned
    there does come a point of letting go.  But not until every Biblical
    effort has been exhausted, whereby leaving no other alternative.
    
    It sometimes through the letting go that the offending party may find
    his/herself back to God...  Think of prodigal son parable, then reflect
    on the Biblical guidelines for unrepentent church members that results
    in excommunication/disfellowship and being shunned.
    
    Seems hard, seems cruel, seems tough..... but it is the loving thing to
    do.
    
    Grieving as well,
    Nancy

        Well, I'm at home now fixing dinner and doing the laundry
        and just decided to check on the Notes.
        
        I believe that I have just about exhausted all possible ways to
        bring her back to God and myself. I have used the TOUGH LOVE and
        prayer ways. I have pretty much resigned myself to the fact that
        she won't be coming back, at least not to our marriage. I'll always
        leave an opening for God to work His miracles in my life and accept
        what they are.
        
        
                        Peace and blessings to all,
                        Charlie
                        

    >I'll always leave an opening for God to work His miracles in my life
    >and accept what they are.                                          
    
    God bless you, Charlie.  I'm still bummin'.  No comparison, I know.
    
    MM

    Still praying for you Charlie to rest in God's arms all the way.
    
    Nancy

        Thanks to you all for your prayers and support. I'm
        beginning to feel the affects of them.
        
        I had a long talk with Jesus this morning and it
        seems as if he was searching my heart.
        
        It was like is was asking me what He could do for me,
        I responded with, well if He could grant me one request
        it would be for satan and all his followers to be cast
        into the pit FOREVER and peace and harmony would abound
        here on earth, pretty much Heaven on earth. I told him 
        if He didn't want to do that now then my next request 
        would be that I would wake up and this whole Divorce 
        storm would be just a bad dream and we would be one 
        happy Christian family. Now, if this wasn't in his will 
        then, for Him to give me the strength, wisdom and 
        guidance to endure the up coming Divorce proceedings,
        to make sure that the kids are taken care of and
        when all is said and done that I won't fall into sin
        after the Divorce is final to fulfill my physical needs.
        I basically said the requests are in your hands, and until
        I'm stable both physically and mentally I want to be there
        in His hands too!
        
        I was informed by my wife last night, first time in a week
        she even talked to me, that she has set up a mediator for
        the division of the property. I told her before I can agree
        with anything I'll have to talk to my Attorney. And something
        about a financial statement she wants me to fill out. I know
        that the statement was coming but I didn't expect it from
        her. Again, I told her I'll talk with my Attorney first before
        committing to any of her demands or requests. I also need to
        talk with him about, if we settle everything in a timely manner
        do we have to wait the full 90 days. I want to get the pain,
        suffering and agony over with and get on with life.
        
        My son will have his 10th birthday tomorrow, what a way to 
        remember your birthday. He even mentioned that to me a couple
        of days ago. I was very much aware of that when I was praying
        about giving her notice. But, the disharmony and unrest around
        the house just had to come to an end. It was a very, IMHO, 
        unhealthy environment for the kids to be in mentally, me also.
        My heart just is just broken for my kids, if fact any children
        that have or will have to go through a Divorce. I pray for 
        them all.
        

        Well, enough for now. I have a busy day ahead.
        
                Thanks again for all the prayers and support,
                        may He keep you in His hands also!
                        
                                Charlie

        Still have a minute or two till the rat race starts and
        I wanted to bounce what happened to me a long time ago
        and see what you all think.
        
        I was coming back from training in Boston in 1978 and
        had stopped in Chicago to see my folks. I was at O'Hare
        airport reading a book waiting till my plane would leave.
        If any of you are familiar with O'Hare airport, they have
        very large waiting areas. Any way I was sitting in the
        middle of one with the next closet person at least 300 FT
        away. When this young guy comes and sits down next to me
        and asked me if I knew about Jesus and if I did what he 
        meant, he had a very straight face the whole time. I told
        him all that I knew about Jesus, a couple of minutes worth
        of talking. I never saw him walking up to me by the way.
        After I was done talking, he said you know a lot about
        Him don't you. I said yes. He just got up a left, I
        looked down at my book for not more than a second or two
        and then looked around for him. I couldn't find him 
        anywhere. Now how could someone, without running, get
        away so fast?
        
        This was a time in my life when I wasn't up to speed
        religiously as I should of been. Anyway, when I arrived
        back in Tucson I had one of the most traumatic times in
        my life where I had to call on God to again help me.
        
        Could anyone out there explain the significance of the
        whole ordeal?


                Thanks for listening or should I say reading.
                
                God Bless,
                        Charlie
                        

A similar experience happened to my friend Anne (the one I put in the 
prayer requests about her son).  She was hunting for a church and
a secretary somewhere.  A guy walks in and strikes up a conversation.
Somehow it is steered towards her church search.  The guy says
something to the effect of the Lowell Church of the Nazarene up
on Varnum Avenue.  She says she'll give it a try.

A moment later, the guy's gone.  She asked if anyone in the office 
saw him or got his named; she even described him to her co-workers.
No one did.  She looked for this guy at our church, but did not find 
him.

Now, I don't know if Anne and Phil were directed to our church for 
their sakes, or for our sakes, or for mutual ministry.  Anne believes
that it was an angel (or strongly suspects it), and I strongly suspect
that her suspicion is correct.

I like the phrase in the Bible about Mary's response to the things
that make you go, Hmmmm....  "She pondered these things in her heart."

MM

    Hi Charlie,
    
    Just a couple of things I wanted to comment on in your last couple of
    replies.
    
>        if He didn't want to do that now then my next request 
>        would be that I would wake up and this whole Divorce 
>        storm would be just a bad dream and we would be one 
>        happy Christian family. Now, if this wasn't in his will 
    
    I know you'll agree with this, but I want to affirm it:  it IS His will
    that this marriage be maintained and your family be a Christian home
    with Him at its center.  I know it is your will as well.  The reason
    that things are not happening this way is because He doesn't force His
    will on mankind, and sadly, your wife is not willing for His will.
    
>        I was coming back from training in Boston in 1978 and
>        had stopped in Chicago to see my folks. I was at O'Hare
>        airport reading a book waiting till my plane would leave.
    
    As one who has spent time witnessing at O'Hare, I am glad to hear this. 
    I can't say that anyone from our fellowship would have been there at
    the time you were (I think most of our time going there was before
    1978, and the abruptness of the departure would be uncharacteristic
    of most of the Christians in our assembly, as we usually are very
    joyful to meet fellow believers, and would spend more time than that
    talking).  However, it is an encouragement, because witnessing at an
    airport is often a real work of faith, as you usually will never
    meet or hear from the people you witness to.  Yet I believe that many a
    seed has been planted this way.  In your case, I believe the Lord used
    it to stir your heart:
>        This was a time in my life when I wasn't up to speed
>        religiously as I should of been. Anyway, when I arrived
>        back in Tucson I had one of the most traumatic times in
>        my life where I had to call on God to again help me.
    He knew full well what was ahead, and it seems that He was prodding at
    your heart in preparation, so that you would be quick to call on Him in
    your time of need.  It seems that that brief encounter at the airport
    had an impact on your heart.
    
    The Lord bless you,
    Mark L.

    Charlie,
    
    It sounds to me like God knew the trials you were about to face and He
    sent a messenger to focus your attention on Him.  
    
    >    After I was done talking, he said you know a lot about
    >    Him don't you. I said yes. He just got up a left, I
    
    >    This was a time in my life when I wasn't up to speed
    >    religiously as I should of been. Anyway, when I arrived
    >    back in Tucson I had one of the most traumatic times in
    >    my life where I had to call on God to again help me.
    
    
    Here, it seems as if He was saying that you knew enough to see you
    through your need.  When you called on God did He meet your need?
    Do you think that in bringing this instance to your remembrance at this
    time, God may be telling you that He is there to meet your need again?
    
    Elsewhere in this conference I mentioned that I very nearly trashed my
    marriage.  It was about as close to being dead as you can get when I
    threw a tantrum at God while sitting out in my back yard yelling at Him
    screaming "WHY!"  I knew very well why I had my own gross sin to
    contribute to the situation but that's another story.  God gave me what
    I can only call a spiritual slap in the face and I heard Him say as
    clear as day "Be still and know that I am God".  Over the course of the
    following weeks and months God continued to focus my attention on my
    own walk with Him which was shaky at best and non-existent at worst.
    God has worked a miracle in our lives and although our marriage is not
    faultless, we love each other deeply and are completely committed to
    God and His service.  It wasn't until I reached a point of complete
    helplessness regarding my marriage and my own sin that I could really
    place myself in God's hands and allow Him to work.  Also he kept
    drawing my attention away from my wife's sin as if to say "That's *My*
    business.  Keep your hands off."
                         
                         GREAT IS HIS FAITHFULNESS
    
    In His Love,
    Dave

 Similar thing happened to me one time..I was living in Colorado Springs and
 during a particularly nasty storm I was enroute to a local grocery store.  
 While driving slowly along I encountered a woman struggling along trying to
 keep her feet in the snow and ice.  I stopped and offered her a ride..she said
 she was going to the same strip mall to which I was heading.  We talked briefly
 about the Lord while driving, sharing a few things back and forth (she was
 a Christian she said).  I dropped her off at the store she was going to, and
 told her I'd be about 5 minutes with the business I had to transact and would
 give her a lift back home when she concluded her business.  She said, fine, and
 would meet me back in my car.  I returned to my car in less than 5 minutes
 and waited..and waited..she never returned nor did I ever see her again.



 Jim

        RE -.1 of Dave's


     >It sounds to me like God knew the trials you were about to face and He
     >sent a messenger to focus your attention on Him.  
        
        That is what my impression was, that he sent an Angel to check my faith
        out and bring my attention or focus back to Him. It didn't occur to me 
        till after my trials were over with that it could of been an Angel. 
        Boy did I focus on Him during that time. That's a whole other event
        in my life of which to this day I can't really elaborate about....
        The more I think about it the more spooky it seems about the quick 
        disappearance of the guy. But Angels are among us! 
        
        Current the way my mind is, I keep thinking back to see if God was
        again checking me out or forwarning of impending trials coming up
        with my wife. If he was or did, it would help me to understand Him
        more and how he is working in my life so that I can be more receptive,
        open, and responsive to His ways and will.
        
        The feelings right now is I wish one of His Angels would just pick me
        up and carry off somewhere. But then I wouldn't be able to grow 
        through all of this and come even closer to Him.
        
                        Learning and growing more one day at a time.
                                        Charlie

  Hi Charlie,

    I'm sorry, but I just don't get it.

    I read your mail too fast.  To be candid, I was surprised that
    _you_ posted the divorce.

    Charlie, no emotions, no feelings, no rationalizations...

    Is that what Hosea would have done?  Is that what Christ would
    have done?

    It just seems not right to me.  It really doesn't.

    When I became born-again (or at least the time I knew I was, perhaps
    I was before this time) it was a powerful spiritual experience.  It
    was "Jesus this, Jesus that, Jesus EVERYTHING" and it completely 
    dominated my conversation with my wife.  Carol said she didn't think 
    she could live with me as I was (am).  I remember leaving the room 
    she was at and I just started blubbering and I told her that I didn't
    want to lose her, but I couldn't lose Jesus.

    It just perked Carol up and she held me and it saved our marriage 
    for the time.

    All I'm saying is what are your expectations of her?  WHY are your
    expectations of her?  (Is this agape?)  Carol EIGHT years later is
    showing signs of responding to the Lord.  What if my expectation was
    conversion (as yours seems to be) and what if God's expectation was
    WATERING.

    Are you willing to continue watering Charlie?

    Does your wife know you love her?  Have you told her what keeping
    your marriage alive means to you?  Have you ever just held her and
    said "I want to be yours forever?"  That's what Jesus says to her
    right now - no matter her response.

    (I don't want these answers, I just want you to think about the 
    questions.)

    If the home situation was intolerable, there's another way.  Its 
    called SEPARATION.

    I don't understand it and my albeit extremely limited discernment is
    that you blew it when YOU filed for divorce.  And it also says there
    still might be another way.

    Sorry, but if there's any chance...

                                                 In His Love,

                                                 Tony

        Boy, 66.40 has really thrown me for a loop. Sorry but,
        I'm going to have to pull back for a while.........
        


                        God Bless you all!!!
                        Charlie

    Tony,
    
    With all due respect to your zeal and heart to do right, please be
    careful how far you push this ... 
    
    Let's look at the facts, Charlie is not the one unrepentant and
    unwilling to reconcile... his wife is.
    
    Be careful to not pour salt into an already open and festering wound. 
    I *hear* your concern....
    
    Nancy

    Tony...you pushed too far.
    
    sigh,
    Nancy

 ...and a reminder that divorces *can* be undone.  Praise God, He is there for
 the unrepentant heart that repents, for the emotionally broken to heal.  It is
 not up to us to judge or harrangue Charile, or his wife.  He came to us for
 advice, now he comes to us for support and prayer.  That is the most and the
 best we, in our humanness can do for him.





 Jim

        Mark,
        
                Thank you also for your mail and support. I don't,
        really can't, and won't take offense to Tony's reply. I 
        fully understand that he has only been exposed to a small part 
        of the whole storm and that he might be a little premature in 
        his questions. I respect him for being open and honest. If
        per-chance someone thinks I should forgive him, well I feel
        that there is nothing to forgive him for, he really hasn't
        done anything wrong. It's just a little more painful today
        and I just need to pull back and re-group.
        
                Below is a reply to Jim H. in his response to 66.41
        of mine.
        

                                God be with you,
                                        Charlie



====================
        Jim,
        
                Thanks for your mail message, I really needed it about
        now!!
        
                I have kept a very positive attitude with the kids at
        all times. Constantly talking about forgiveness, and telling
        them to treat her with with the utmost respect as their mother.
        I have continued to let God flow through me towards her with
        love, considering how a non-Christian might of handled it.
        I still have very high regards and respect for her at all
        times. I'm still deeply in love her, and wouldn't do anything to
        harm or hurt her in any way. Thats probably why I'm taking
        it so hard, and still praying that it could be called off.
        I suppose that I still haven't fully accepted what God's 
        plan is around this whole storm in totally releasing her.
        I really pray for God to take the last 13 years of memories
        from the marriage and help me to put them in the right perspective
        in accordance with His will.
        
                Thanks, and May God richly bless you,
                        Charlie
        

    Well, I deleted my note re: .41 because I was too mad about it. (So its
    not my imagination that .41 was a bit harsh)  
    
    
    I'm withholding my tongue.  God bless you Charlie.  I pray God's
    blessings and peace will be upon you in this troubled time.
    
    
    Donna

    That should have read .40 instead of .41
    

From:	SCOMAN::BARBIERI "God can be so appreciated!  19-Mar-1993 1528" 19-MAR-1993 12:34:31.04
To:	NANCY
CC:	BARBIERI
Subj:	man this is tough...

  Hi Nancy,

    Boy, I don't know.  Plus I can't get in right now.  I've a 
    3:30 meeting.  I just can't get in.

    Would you post saying I can't get in right now but I'm sorry
    for any harm caused?  

    I did preface by saying "I don't know..."  That was my way of
    acknowledging I lacked full info.  I guess I got caught off
    guard by sending one note to Charlie personally and being told 
    to post it so figuring the last one was ok as well.

    I do believe though that the participants are not doing the
    painful task of perhaps pointing out what may be sin.  Its like
    we're all saying "Its all right."
 
    What if its NOT??!

    Post this if you want.  I can't get in right now.

    Charlie, I'm truly sorry...

                                                        Love,

                                                        Tony
    

Let's not be too harsh with Tony in reaction either.  Charlie has acknowledged
that he know Tony is only speaking from his heart out of concern.

Let's let this one go, folks, and let anything left between Charlie and
Tony be between Charlie and Tony.

    .49
    
    In complete agreement with Mark.
    
    I know Tony, he was just here at my house a couple of weeks ago, and
    can vouch that his heart is trying to do the *right* thing.
    
    Nancy

    To be sure, as I've expressed to Charlie off-line, there are some very
    painful trade-offs between the stress on the family of continuing to
    live with an unrepentant adulterous wife and the stress of divorce.
    Biblically, it is of course clear that there are grounds for divorce.
    But is this what God wants?

    We know that God hates divorce, but we also know that God calls us to
    be at peace.  We also need to ask whether the Lord would consider his
    wife an unbeliever in this case and whether she has in fact left the
    marriage, even though she is still (for the time being) physically
    present in the home.  These are questions for which there are no
    clear Biblical answers, and IMHO they need to be answered on a
    case-by-case basis, as they may vary with the personalities and
    spiritual state (as observed over time) of the individuals involved.

    Charlie had wisely sought godly counsel from multiple sources prior
    to writing here, and this counsel has presented to him both sides of
    the situation while leaving the final decision with him so that he
    could discern for himself the Lord's leading.  Regardless of his
    choice, he would be accountable to the Lord, and there would
    inevitably be some pretty major repercussions either way.

    The choice has been made, and Charlie has expressed a great
    willingness to rescind it in a moment should his wife give him any
    reason at all to do so.  Tony's questions are very important ones,
    and they had already been asked and the Lord's will sought on them in
    fervent prayer.  Tony, I do hope that you might be comforted in
    knowing this.

    For myself, all that remains is to continue to lift up Charlie and his
    family up in prayer, in the hope that God might yet work a miracle in
    his wife's heart, but that regardless, that Charlie and the children
    might rest in His strength and be drawn closer to Him and to each other
    through this terrible ordeal.

    In His love,

				*** Daryl ***

      Hi All,
    
        I reread my reply and feel (discern) that the content was ok,
        but the delivery stunk.
    
        Actually, I think I was out of the Spirit.  I am not completely
        delivered from sports and my mind was partially on UMass and
        March Madness and stuff which I (if I'm honest) find to be at
        odds with the Spirit. But which I love (in a away).
    
        So...I was out of touch with God and I have another lesson letting
        me know the tragic waste of time (at least for me) competitive
        sports is.
    
        Charlie, please forgive me.  There is more than content.  There
        is delivery.  There is a way.  Actually, when I went into the
        Conference and reread my reply I was so embarrased I got all red.
    
        Man, there is a load of guilt when sin is seen.  (Mark, I don't 
        mean the legal kind, I mean the psychic destruction!  ;-)  )
    
        Charlie, you're in God's hands.  I can tell from your replies that
        you are seeking His will.  If mistakes are being made, surely He
        is winking at them as they would seem to be in the area of
        indiscernment which is probably where 99% of our sins come from.
    
        In a sense, this Conference is a corporate body and I submit
        to the brethren of this body of Christ's and ask for forgiveness.
        Perhaps I'll even be willing to allow Christ to cleanse my heart
        a little.
    
        Please allow Christ to pour out His PEACE upon you.
                                                 
                                                            Love,
    
                                                            Tony

    Beautiful, Tony!  You know, often the hardest thing about confessing,
    repenting, and asking forgiveness is being able to forgive yourself.
    I do hope that you *will* allow Christ to cleanse your heart so that
    you can receive His forgiveness, and in so doing forgive yourself!

    In His love,

				*** Daryl ***

        I just got off the phone with her Minister. He's always
        giving me a call checking up on how I'm doing. Last
        Sunday, he tried to get her to sit down and have just a
        talk with her about all that is going on and her feelings.
        He said that she firmly said NO THANKS. The Minister told
        me that he expected that type of answer from her and wasn't
        a bit surprised.
        
        Tony, I suspect that as I reveal more about what has transpired 
        over the last 3 months you'll be able to see all that I have
        done to try and salvage the marriage, the praying and soul
        searching that has gone on coming to a conclusion that the
        Divorce was the only way. You need not ask for forgiveness
        because I feel you haven't done anything against me to need
        it. But if you feel you have, I totally and unconditionally
        forgive you.
        
        Now, I have to go home and try and make my middle son's 10th
        birthday a happy one and try to take his mind the current events.
        

                May you all have a blessed and happy weekend,
                
                        Charlie

    Well, I don't know.  I re-read .41 and its not as bad as I thought it
    was.  This is just a touchy issue all around.  Tony, I think your last
    reply (forgiveness)was so sweet.   And then I re-read my note and I
    sounded harsh.  A big I'M SORRY for that.  
    
    Lets all go home, put our feet up, and give this more thought tomorrow.
    
    God bless you all, and I pray God's will be done concerning this.
    
    
    
    Donna                                      

Re: .52


Beautiful note, Tony.  Shoulda known you're a UMass fan.  :^)



Divorce is so difficult on children, Charlie.  I found, though, as I 
concentrated on making life as wonderful for my daughters as possible, 
that my own pain was eased.  Somehow my hurt didn't seem nearly as 
important as theirs.

Praying for you and your family.

Sandy

        Thanks Sandy. I really feel for my kids. I look at their pain and
        it does ease mine. They are the real joy and happiness around the
        house now in my sadness. They have shown a lot of love and compassion
        for their Dad lately. Probably its the reap what you sow syndrome. I've
        always treated them that way, there has always been an abundance of hugs,
        kisses and holding. I won't say anything about my wife's love
        and compassion towards them, because it would be judgmental.


                You have a good weekend now, and God bless!
                        Charlie
                        

Sounds like you're a great dad, Charlie.  Keep up the good work!  Your 
kids will need as much stability as you can give them right now.


God bless you and your family, Charlie.

Sandy

                        

        Well, the kids and I had a real nice weekend. Wish I
        could say the same about my wife......
        
        I went to my church for the 8:00 service and then came
        home about 9:30. My wife and kids were gone to her church.
        I cleaned some of the house and started a load of laundry.
        At 10:15 my eldest son calls and wants to come home from
        church because her mom is mad and yelling at him. I told
        him to tell his mom that I was coming to pick him up. Now,
        this is about an hour and a half earlier than normal. I
        drive down an not only pick my oldest son but my middle
        son also. They complained all the way home about their mom
        and the oldest told her before I picked them up that she
        wouldn't have to worry about him in church again because
        he wasn't coming back. He wanted to go with me to my church.
        We talked on the way back about how we should treat their
        mom and the benefits of going to church, that mine would
        be a little different. That went over very well. Then I'm
        not home 5 min's and my 5 year old called and wanted to 
        come home. Down I go and pick her up. Lucky I'm only 3 min's
        away.
        
        We all get home and the eldest son wants to go over to a 
        friends house and play, I didn't have a problem with that
        so he disappears until about 5pm.
        
        The 2 younger kids and I are sitting on the couch waiting
        for my wife to come home for lunch, when home she comes
        and slams the down coming in. Storms over to her desk and
        starts looking at some papers. meanwhile the 2 kids eyes
        have dilated something fierce. The 5 year old goes over
        and asks whats wrong mommy, she retorts loudly, "What do
        you mean whats wrong" and then storms and stomps upstairs
        and another door slams. Then both kids head upstairs to talk
        to her, the middle son stays at the bottom of the steps and
        my little girl goes into the bed room and asks whats wrong,
        my wife told her that the kids hurt her feeling for not
        staying at church. My wife then fixed herself lunch and then
        went to her desk and did some Divorce stuff. I then fixed
        lunch for the 2 kids and myself. The my wife took off for
        about 3 hours, who knows where. She comes back about 5:30
        and fixes dinner but only servers my youngest and herself.
        The littlest ask her what about Marc, the oldest, her said
        I don't know what he's doing. Then she leaves for Bible
        study at the church. Marc and I then proceed to eat out dinner.
        While my wife was fixing dinner she commented that she didn't
        like the fact that the Kids where pick up. I told her I didn't
        know what was going on and they wanted to be picked up, so I did.
        I always pick the kids up after the final church service to allow
        my wife to practice for the Choir. In the past she didn't want
        the kids there after church so she could go across the street to
        a gas station and call her boy friend. In the last 3 Sundays she
        has gone over there twice from 1/2 hour to an hour.
        When she came home from Bible study she just went upstairs and
        stayed in the bedroom while the 3 kids and stayed down stairs
        until it was time for them to go to bed. 
        
        I really pray for her and the kids, if this is indicative of the
        future they sure will need someone stable and loving. During the
        whole ordeal I prayed for wisdom and guidance to do and say only
        the right thing. My heart just gets torn when I see the
        kids being treated this way. So enough for now, I get this
        gut feeling that things are going to get worse, I just pray that
        I can be there for the kids and comfort them as needed when events
        like what happened Sunday crop up.
        
                        God Bless you all,
                                Charlie
                                
        

    Charlie and all,
    
    As I read your note, I couldn't help but recall how destructive my
    relationship with my ex had gotten... he didn't want to leave the home,
    so I went to court and had him forced out... on what grounds, emotional
    and mental torture for me and the children.
    
    It had gotten to the point of being so incredibly tense that the kids
    were upset *all* of the time...  not trying to butt in and say *you
    should do this or that", but Charlie I'm asking that you pray about
    what God would have you do.  
    
    One of the things that I *do* see in your note is that you have
    knowledge of her whereabouts and the time she spends there... are you,
    well, er, uh, following her?  [you don't have to answer this].  
    
    If you aren't and someone is *feeding* you information, perhaps its
    best to cut that person off from communication about those things.  If
    you are, then my prayer is that you'll see the destruction in that kind
    of behavior.
    
    Enough for this note... I have more on the kids later.
    
    Nancy

re.59

	Charlie,

	I can't imagine anyone having a nice weekend in your household under
those circumstances. 

	Is the place that she attends (church) and Bible studies providing her
with any fellowship concerning your situation. Sorry I didn't read your
previous reply. it sounds like she's miserable to the uttermost. Perhaps she
doesn't really want to go through with this?

	I know first hand what you're going through.

Regards,
Ace

        Well, the way I find out is, if just from the drive way look
        down to the church or gas station and I can see her van. I
        use to check on her in the past, but now that the divorce 
        has started I could care less. It's just that the kids
        keep asking where's mommy, and out of reflex I look toward 
        the gas station. I never tell them what I see, just that 
        she must still be at church. What she does now is her own
        business as long as it doesn't affect the kids mentally or
        physically, or myself for that matter.
        
        I talked to my Attorney about what it would take to have
        her thrown out, and he said a lot of physical or mental
        abuse. I asked him about this earlier just for protection
        sake, I have no intentions of asking her or having the 
        court ask her to leave. Maybe the hope is still there that
        the whole thing can be called off........
        
        I constantly pray for the wisdom and guidance to handle this
        whole storm in a Christian way. It is still very hard to
        accept that I'm Divorcing someone that I still love, and
        that that person can have so much hate for me that once
        loved me. Keeping that in mind, that is why I want this
        thing to be fair, peaceful, honest, and calm, and I pray for
        all this to be that way. I could handle the problems but the
        kids are the ones where the impressions will be left upon.
        This is what I want to prevent.
        
        Enough for now....
        
                        God Bless,
                        Charlie
        

      Hi Charlie, Daryl, Donna, and Sandy,
    
        Thanks so much.  The Lord tears (reveals sin) but He also binds
        up (Hosea 6:1).
    
      Charlie, I had pteradactyls (read: BIG butterflies) just reading your
      note on the day your family had.  You pictured it so well that its 
      clear the tension level is incredibly high.
    
      Pray without ceasing brother.  Remain connected to the vine.
    
      Oh, one other thing...it is possible that your wife is suffering
      bigtime from the sting of sin - all that alienation in the heart,
      all that unrest, that anxiety.  What she will do with it, who knows?
      But, she seems to be suffering a lot.
    
      Pray for her!!!
    
                                                        God Bless,
    
                                                        Tony

        

        She could be hurting big time, she won't open up and
        tell me anything. Back when we were going through the
        counseling, I suggested that she get some help like
        her sister did. This is where a lot of the bad baggage
        comes into play. After 60+notes I can't remember if I
        told this part or not. If I did, sorry, if not here goes.
        
        It seems that when my wife was young, 7 or 8, her mother
        was unhappy in the marriage, whether she had an affair or
        not is unknown, she decided to stay in the marriage for
        the kids sake. From my wife's sister I got that the parents
        acted very cold toward each other, went their own way doing
        their own thing, and fought a lot. Never really showed any
        sort of marital love for the kids to learn from. Also when
        her father died in 1975, he was in his early fifties, of
        massive cancer their mother suppressed any talking or coping
        with the death. Both of these things contributed to my wife's
        sister's drug, alcohol problems and relationship problems. Talking
        with her husband, her sister almost never showed any outward
        affection and had a very hard time getting very close to him. She
        would hardly ever kiss him and when he tried to hug or kiss her
        she would hesitate. Almost a mirror image of my wife, except
        his wife decide early to stick it out, seek professional help
        and work on the marriage. Now after they have a whole different
        marriage, 180 degrees from before. Now, I've must of spent a
        couple of hundred dollars in phone calls to my wife's sister
        explaining everything and seeking help. My wife and her sister
        must of spent about the same talking. It was explained to my
        wife all that she went through and the problems that they had
        when they were kids, but my wife either doesn't believe it or
        doesn't want to admit she might have the same problems. Any
        way my wife doesn't want to seek any professional let alone
        Christian help. She won't talk to the Minister about our whole
        storm at all. her Minister is still letting her teach Sunday
        school and sing in the Choir, but that is his purgative. I just
        know what my Pastor would or wouldn't let her do in his church.
        When talking, a week or two ago, with my Pastor he insinuated
        that he would love to talk to my wife, but felt it would be 
        impossible considering her reaction then to any requests. Maybe
        in the future?
        
        But, anyway I'm just praying for each day at a time to accept
        what God has to offer to the kids and myself. Even though she
        has done something to make my life uncomfortable. When that
        happens I think to myself, Well how would Jesus handle this and
        then do what I believe he would do. This really seems to work
        very well, and keeps me in the Christian frame of mind to
        weather anything abusive tosed my way by her. I strongly believe
        a by product of my actions are sensed by the kids. Not doing
        this to pursuade them, but to try and set a good example for them.
        
        A funny note is when I got home Friday night, before my wife, I gave
        my middle son a birthday card with some money in it. After he opened
        it up he came up to me and gave me a big bear hug and said I love you. 
        I totally lost it and had to go hide my head in the trash can as if I 
        was throwing something away. He then he ask me what was wrong and I 
        basicly told him. He had tears and I think he understood or seemed to.
        
        Well enough rambling for now just another piece to the puzzle.
        
                Thanks for all the prayers,
                        Charlie
                        

    Thats really great about your son.  Your in my prayers always.  Not
    trying to be nosy, but please keep us updated on how everything is
    going.   It is sometimes good therapy to talk about it too.
    
    
    God bless,
    
    Donna

    I don't know whether this is right or wrong... but here goes.
    
    My kids have seem me cry hurtful tears many times... those memories of
    Mom's tears have stuck with them.  They mention them some times even
    now....  Matthew remembers the fights ... the tension ... and would ask
    things about why his father behaved certain ways [drinking and staying 
    out at night].
    
    I've *never* lied to my children.  I've *never* condemned their father. 
    I have taught them that Dad has a problem that effects his relationship
    to God.  That their Dad is a man who is troubled, but loves them
    incessantly and that they should love their father and honour him at
    all times, but they don't have to like what he does.
    
    It is important that no matter what pain you are feeling, no matter
    what hurt/anger may come, that the children be told that there Mom is
    still someone whom they should honour as God commands it, not for her
    actions, but for her God-given role in their birth.
    
    In other words, back to the cross again, for them to love her through
    the eyes of God.  That's what I have taught my kids and to this day,
    they have a wonderful relationship with their Dad... loving him,
    honouring him, yet *not* accepting his sin as *okay* behavior.
    I also have taught them that it is not their place to point out their
    father's sin to him, but to pray for him, that he would be convicted of
    his sin, himself.
    
    It sounds like you are doing just that, the above and this probably
    didn't even need mentioning... but as I don't know who is following
    this string, if their be others struggling in a divorce with resentment
    and anger towards an ex-spouse, please, please, please, don't hand that
    over to the kids.
    
    I wish you could see my kids and see how well adjusted they are,
    considering all... [we do have our problems, but Praise God they are
    few and not too hard to handle].
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    
    

    Charlie,
    
    I can empathize with what you're going through.  I went through a
    divorce a few years ago.  I went into the marriage a sweet young
    Christian girl, and through no one's fault but my own, came out an
    extremely hurt, angry woman.  My marriage lasted almost 12 years.  I
    have a beautiful son as a result of that marriage.
    
    Charlie, unlike you, I could not tell my husband that I loved him the
    last five years of our marriage.  Without going through the whole range
    of my mistakes and my ex-husband's mistakes, I followed the rules
    regarding "NO DIVORCE" as pounded into my head from birth.  Charlie,
    you can be as repentant as possible, but if your wife (and please
    understand, this is ONLY MY OPINION) is not repentant, I do not believe
    that God calls us to be miserable; or our children.  As I look back on
    what I went through during my marriage and what happened during the
    divorce, I can only say that all my prayers about my situation were
    answered the day the judge granted my divorce.  I did not feel that
    way at the time, though.  I become sick, lethargic, lost weight, 
    lost interest, felt undesirable, unloveable, etc.  This in spite of
    the fact that I did not love my husband.  I knew what I had gone
    through, what I had tried to be, how much work I put into the marriage,
    and still he decided to (in my mind) throw me away.  Again, I know my
    situation was different from yours in that you still love your wife.  
    
    I cannot begin to offer you advice as to what to do because I feel that
    would be making judgement.  However, I do know that pain and anger is
    something that must be gone through, and that while you can forgive
    another person it does not mean that you have to excuse them (in the
    words of a very good new friend) their actions.  
    
    Charlie, I will definitely keep you in my prayers and I know from
    reading your notes that God will guide you in the right direction.
    
    Much love in Christ,
    Fran

    In regards to your wife's past:
    
    Charlie, it sounds like you are trying to be understanding and caring
    in all of this by seeking knowledge about her from her sister.  It also
    sounds like you are looking for ways to fix her.  It is fine to gain
    knowledge and wisdom, which should pour forth *understanding*, but then
    we must let God do the work.
    
    Remember this:
    
    "Inevitably, God could not work in his life, because I was too busy 
     working in his life.
    
    I had bound God's hands and intervention with all of my earthly
    wisdom.  Anything that I could have, would have and currently could do,
    would only be temporary, a bandaid, but God's in the business of
    transforming lives for eternity."
    
    Again, pray for her, show her the love of Christ, as it appears you
    have been doing... and a mighty good job of it, I might say. :-)
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

        Oh thank you Nancy, you have given me the support that I'm
        guided correctly with the children!
        
        When I sat the kids down and talked to about the whole mess,
        I really bestowed upon them in the realm of Forgiveness,
        it's not their fault in any way, shape or form, and treat
        their mom with the utmost respect no matter how she treats
        them. Whatever the outcome from this is, I believe I tried
        to do my best under the conditions at hand. It seems to have
        paid off, they show little if any signs of problems. The only
        exception being that my 5 year old daughter pops up every once
        in a while about the fact she can't get out of her head that
        mommy had a boyfriend. I just hold and hug her and tell her 
        that mommy got rid of her boyfriend and that I love her 
        very much.
        
        Throughout this whole storm I have been very honest and open
        with the kids as to what is or has been going on and what
        may or will happen with the Divorce. They are the only family
        I have left and I feel that they should know the past and
        future since my wife hasn't said a thing to them about anything.
        Except one morning she took my eldest son aside and talked to
        him about what she might do in moving out and that the kids 
        would spend one week with her and the next with me, but thats
        all.
        
        I pray that they will weather this whole storm with minimal
        mental damage. I called their teachers and told them to let
        me know if there is any change in their behavior so that
        I can address it immediately and take the needed action to
        help them. So far no changes, but it far from over too.
        
                Bless you all for being there for help and support,
                        Charlie
                        
        

    Hello Charlie,
    
    	I typed you earlier.  I can't help but suggest the serenity prayer:
    
    	God grant me the serenity to accept things I cannot change,
    	Courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the 
    	difference.
    
    	May I suggest that an adult to adult (parent) talk
    	with your wife to do a trial separation - sounds like her confusion
    	and frustration should be worked out alone (a soul-searching
    	retreat with the Lord) and not worked out in front of or on the 
    	children.  They are children and not adult reasoning.  Maybe the 
    	reality during a separation trial could get her more focused. 
    	Not allowing the same scenerio to repeat itself in your children. 
    	
    	Please accept my human suggestion, I speak from hindsight, from my
    	heart (which the Lord knows very much). Three years later, my son
    	and I discuss past events, clarifying things with each other. He
    	now understands when I am grateful for such trials and
    	tribulations, that maybe someday through the grace of our Father 
    	that I may help another suffering human being. 
                               
    	I pray for serenity for you, your children and your wife not matter
    	where your paths go.  The Lord's path is the only path, LORD is rocky, 
    	but heaven/home is the great gift.  Calm... storm... rainbow. 
    	
    	
    	Continually striving to stay in the light.  
    	
    
    	All the Higher Power to you!
    
    	Cynthia
    
    	

        Well, she came home tonight and had done the grocery shopping. I 
        noticed that she had finally taken off her wedding rings. I really 
        didn't expect her to of kept them on this long. She came in all happy
        and whistling. I'm going to keep mine on until the Judge declares the
        marriage if dissolved or God works on her to bring her back. all of
        us were sitting in the family room and I happen to look over where
        her rings should be and my whole 13 years of the marriage and
        relationship past through my mind. That really set me back a notch.
        I was feeling it was just like yesterday in my mind the day I put
        the engagement ring on and, day that I put the wedding ring on and
        the day I put her 10th anniversary ring on. Oh how painful it was,
        just like someone ripping my heart out. I prayed for calmness.
        
        She had taken a reference book from down by the PC to work the other 
        day and the kids were on the PC she tried to put the book back, then 
        CRASH. She had dropped the book on an old ash tray that I don't use 
        anymore. One that I got at a Digital/United Way drawing football game 
        in Denver a few years ago. Anyway, I came down to see what the crash 
        was and she just said in a sarcastic voice, "Oh look I broke your ash 
        tray", and left the room to throw it away. I just looked at her and 
        said huh? 
        
                Of course I feel more on my own with the emotions since I'm 
        way down on the medicine, of which I'm trying to get off of and use 
        only as needed. So the prayers and faith are now taking over for the 
        medicine or should I say that God is working in me to calm my emotions.
        Thanks Heaven!!!!
        
        So, anyway I'm still feel I'm up against a brick wall trying to talk 
        to her. I'll just have to depend on God to work on her in His way 
        and in His time frame.
        
        The way she has been looking in the newspaper under the home ads,
        I feel that with in the next 30 days she will have moved out. 
        Maybe being alone for a while will give God a chance to work on her,
        if that is in his plan. I'm trying to be open to be worked through
        by Him if need be.
        
        I'll be lifting up all of you, and an anonymous person also in my 
        prayers tonight and in the morning.

        This morning I woke up with all the names of the friends from this
        Notes file going around in my head, giving thanks to God for you
        all being here.

        Today is stating out to be a very emotionally depressing day. The
        ring incident keeps cutting me to the quick. I keep praying for
        peace! But I must wait on him for his will to be done.
        
        I'm at work just waiting for my fellow workers to come in an cheer
        me up. Oh God how I prayer for a speedy resolution to this storm,
        for today is a really down one.............


                May you all enjoy his peace,
                                Charlie

Charlie,

	While I was reading these notes, my heart aches with you, and I pray for
you all the way.  I went through a very simlar ordeal half a year ago, I know
the pain.  But God has shed His tremendous grace on me and led me out of the
most difficult time in my life.  Charlie, I do see some lights in your
situation. I'll say it in the end.  Since I do not have the whole picture of
your situation, so I will just brifely tell my story so that you know where I am
from:

	1. My wife and I are married for 7 years and have 2 kids.
	2. My wife, like your wife, has her baggages and truma in the past.
	3. My wife was attracted to and fell in love with another guy Feburary a
year ago.
	4. Half a year of hellish life in our family, last July I finally found
out what was happening.
	5. I pretended that I do not know and was hoping that love can bring her
back.
	6. One month later my wife asked me to agree to divorce if necessary,
since I always refused any idea of divorce.
	7. The shock made me fast for two days seeking for God's guidence.
I was spending whole day(and the next 3 weeks) just to read this notes file
cause I can not do anything.  At he end of the day, God had Nancy Morales to
tell me read the "Tough Love".  I spent the next day to read the whole book and
I found the book described everything about me.
	8. I had an elder in our church read the book. Giving the
situation he agreed the concept.
	9. I wrote an ultimatum to my wife 5 pages long with 4 pages saying
how much I love her.  And in the end I gave her the following chorices and
demanded an answer in two days:

		a. If she continues the relationship with that guy, she must
move out immediately and the children stay because she does not live in a
Christian life, will ruin the children that God gave us.

		b. If she wants to divorce, I will agree.  But, In God's name,
it is her, not me, who wants the divorce.

		c. If anytime she wants to come back, in the love of God, I will
forgive everything and will prepare a feast to welcome her back to rebuild the
family.

		d. If she decides to stay, she has to break up with her
boyfriend immediately.  In this case, if she needs time and space, I can bring
the kids and leave for other places to work for a while.  It is still against
the Bible to be separated but God knows my heart, it is for the healing and
recovering.

		e. If she decides to stay and build a loving relationship right
away, then it is my dream and I will start our relationship all over again.

	Two days up, she wanted two more weeks.  Near the end of the two
weeks(tremendous of prayers I and two kids hoping for her to stay) she wanted to
stay.  But she would not completely break up with her boyfriend, but discounted
the relationship to the "ordinary friend".  After consulting with our church
elder, I compromised to let her stay and I went ahead to contact her boyfriend
telling him that the decision she made.  Her boyfriend agreed to back off
sayinghe he did not really "in love" with my wife.  Later on I realized, when
the elder and the church prayed for our relationship and begged God to bind the
Satan, God did so.  The "loving" illusion the Satan put on their heads had
faded.

	Now, our relation still has a long way to go, my wife is still refusing
to go to church and is still not believing in Jesus but I can at least kiss her
without being rejected(most of the time).  But it is already in heaven for
me and I am looking for another 7 years to restore our family that I ruined the
last 7 years.

	Ok, back to you, Charlie, the lights I see in your situation, again, I
do not have the whole picture and I am jsut speculating, are the followings:

	a. Your wife is extremely upset.  If her boyfriend supports her fully,
she should be calm and even feel reliefed that she finally is able to be free.
But instead, apparently she is facing unsecured, unknown future that made her
really upset.  She would like to have the support form the kids but the kids are
on your side.

	b. Your wife knows she is "quilty" and she knows the whole church
community will advice against her that is why she won't seek for any Christian
counseling or talk to any church pastors or elders.  But she is in excruciating
pain and isolation so she still goes to church and pray and Bible study such
that she can skip ereryone probably even Jesus in order to communicate with God.

	So I think she is probably in a worse situation than you and she has
really no way out.  She probably can not rely on her boyfriend.  She can not
come back to you because you initiated the divorce(I do not see there is any way
that she can repent in the way you would hope her to return).  She can not talk
to any Christian people because she knows the answer already(probably that is
why she is angry at God).  She can not even bring kids to her side.  I do not
think she will see the divorce is out of your love, she probably hates you
thinking you are pushing her into a corner(Again, I am speculating in her point
of view).

	Charlie, I know you are hurt tremendously and relying on medicine.  The
whole church and the noters here are all behind you and you are on God's side. 
If you can provide her a way out(from her point of view, I know you hope her to
come back anytime) there may have some lights in this seemly dark situation.

	I pray for you and your wife every day.

				In His Love
				Wally
    

    Charlie:
    
    You are in my prayers.  I have been reading this note and have not
    written because of the confused feelings that I have.  You are in a
    most difficult time and your reliance on the Lord is key to your
    success.  I pray for your children.
    
    My confusion stems from having been there before.  My first wife died
    after 20+ years and I had two teen-age sons.  Then I planned to
    re-marry and I got a "Dear John" letter four days before the wedding. 
    I was a bitter man.  God had been unfair to me, in my mind at the time. 
    Then I met and married a woman and conceived a wonderful third son.  We
    are divorced and I live with that pain  almost daily since that son
    lives with her (I won't discuss our terrible divorce laws).  But  there
    are positive things.  I met the lady  who sent me the "Dear John" one
    night boarding  an airplane in Phoenix - we immediately embraced,
    kissed warmely  and sat and held hands the entire flight - I  realized
    that I was still very much in love with her.  But, I married another 
    woman a couple of years later and have found happiness again.  My
    relationship with my ex has improved, even though I feel she still is
    financially raping me.
    
    As men, we have a limited capacity to understand God's plan and we
    frequently confuse it with ours.  We screw up.  But as long as we come
    back or keep focused on HIM, he makes His face to shine  up on us and
    be gracious unto us.  So you are doing  the first thing correctly. 
    Next, you are doing well with the children - OPEN, honest and loving to
    them with strict rules that they  honor their mother(enforced in a
    loving manner).  Recognize that you will be up, down, torn, rewarded,
    hurt, cry, laugh, scream, whatever, you will experience all of it.
    Also, recognize that our advice, while given in love, is still advice
    from men and therefore is not perfect( even though Nancy's seems
    awfully  good to me).  
    
    After all I have said, I want you  to know that if you keep  your eyes
    on the Lord, it will get better.  I know, I have been there and I have
    much happiness and the only better thing I can have is to be with the
    Lord forever!
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl

    66.73:
    
    Thanks, Wally.
    I think I'll have to get "Tough Love" to help me understand a little
    better, but I am very thankful for your note about providing a "way
    out" for someone not presented with an escape.  I will remember it.
    
    Mark

        To sum somethings up and then I'm going to have to bow out
        of the Notes file for a while, waiting on the Lord, living one
        day at a time. It has become very emotionally taxing to my
        physical and mental health over the last couple of days.
        I really have appreciated all the prayers and uplifting that 
        has been done for me over the last weeks. I have learned a 
        lot and felt a lot from the friends here.
        
        The night that I confronted her, March 11th at 9:45 p.m.",
        She and I did some very serious talking about her willingness
        to continue the counseling and what was her ideas of what to
        do next. The more she and I talked the more hostile she got.
        I was calm the whole time from the medicine. I prayed like
        crazy before I went upstairs and talked to her. Basically all
        I got from her talking and the feelings I felt was she wanted
        out, she didn't love me anymore, and we just don't "click" like
        her and her boy friend. She kept pushing back on me the "what
        shall we do now question". She came back from her Calif. trip
        and we talked about the whole affair. I learned from many sources
        over the next month or two that     1) that she came back for 
        the kids sake by the constant talking with her mother about doing 
        just that. 2) She's was still deeply loved her boy friend.
        3) She couldn't face the neighbors and relatives if they found
        out about the affair and she filed for Divorce because of it.
        4) Her and her boy friend were both procrastinators and where 
        contemplating Divorce anyway. 4) She didn't want to talk to any 
        Christian type counselors for the fear of condemnation. 5) Was 
        really more in the secular counseling for herself not our 
        marriage. 6) She had a Lawyer line up before I did. 7) Could
        not find the fantasy type relationship with me... like her
        boy friend had. 8) Never willing to say she's sorry
        or to repent of her sins after her boy friend dumped her during
        her Calif. trip. 9) She told her sister it was over with and she
        wants out. 10) Unwilling to see and address the old baggage brought
        in from her childhood and previous marriage. 11) Continued the
        affair while making the home life seem all so normal and attempting
        counseling. I could go on with more. But, you get the idea.
        
        Now I'm far from perfect, I'm a sinner, but I have Jesus there
        for me to accept my repentance and forgive me. There has been
        some doubt creeping into me as to if I did the right thing. I've
        prayed very hard that what I was doing was right before I
        confronted her. And I believe that God answered my prayers.
        And told me that I was hanging on to a lost cause to give it
        up and follow him. For he has different plans for both of us.
        
        Well, enough. I'm tired, I'm ever so tired and have to go now,
        but I'll return in the future to continue.
        
        May God richly bless you all, and thanks,
        
                                Charlie

        
        

    God bless you, Charlie.  Return to the notes file when your ready. 
    You'll be in my prayers always.
    
    
    Donna

re.79

	Charlie,

	You don't have to open up this much, but if it helps you then do 
as you need to.

	Though I would advise you to seek the Lord's face on this matter
(why Lord?, what are You trying to gain in me?, etc.) and only do what you have 
life and peace to do, you are on solid ground scripturally speaking to 
divorce your wife. You should not feel that you are obligated "by the Bible" 
(so to speak) to remain married. The Lord Jesus allows very little room for
divorce but it sounds as if your wife has provided the ground. I don't know
the whole situation Charlie, and I really don't need to know, but if you
decide to try and work it our with her, you will need to take the Lord as
your sufficient grace to get you through. If you decide for whatever reason
that you will divorce, then go in peace. Do not accept the enemy's accusation
or condemnation (expect it to come from the least likely of sources).

	The psychology involved with the children in complex. But staying
together for their sakes is not always best for them. It is best for
well meaning grandmothers, but not always for the little ones. Sadly, I've
seen the most caring parents when going through a divorce, use their
children to "get at" each other. This is where the most damage occurs.

	I regret what you're going through. May God grace you brother.

regards,
ace

    Charlie,

    Thanks so much for the long note; it really did fill in a lot of
    details, which I find very valuable.  After my separation, my world
    came crashing down at midnight on Halloween (literally) of 1990.  I
    have vivid memories of the pain of Thanksgiving and Christmas...
    alone; I can really empathize with your feelings, as you know.  By
    God's grace, I have been able to forgive and seek forgiveness, and
    though we never reconciled, I praise Him that He's used my pain to
    help me live 2 Corinthians 1:3-7.  Jesus is with you, Charlie, and
    He'll use you too; He already has good works prepared in advance for
    you to do.

    In Christ's love,

				*** Daryl ***

Charlie,

	I know the intimacy relationship between you and God at the moment is
beyond everyone else. Like Nacy said He is carring you in His arm.  I would
like to encourage you:

	It is your wife's previous baggages and her current sin that made her
the kind of the person who needs very special, extra, Christ kind of love. God
command us to love our enemy, Jesus died for us while we are all sinners, it is
hurting but your love to your wife in this kind of situation has to be Agape. 
You say you sitll love her and I pray that you can keep the efforts so that
God's love can flow through you to her, as you did in the Nov and Dec in your
last note. Love is God's assignment to all of us but it is only you at the front
line to deliver this kind of love to her and bring her back to Lord, even that
means divorce if you could not find a better way.  Do not leave Satan any room
that let anything other than love coming into this ordeal.  You need to win this
spiritual war with the love you are receiving every moment from God.

	I pray to God to pour His abundant love to you and your family, give you
all the courage and strength you need.


					In His Love,


					Wally

        Noter Friends,

        Boy is my faith being tested over the weekend and today.
        My wife file for Temporary Custody and after talking with
        my Lawyer this morning, he should get copies of the order
        today, he said that it could be she's getting ready to
        have me thrown out of the house or possibly just protecting
        herself if we can't co-habitate until the Divorce is settled.
        
        I have been acting very Christian like during this whole time.
        Treating her with the utmost respect and honor, along with
        the kids. There hasn't been any fighting or undo stress. She
        hasn't talked to me with more than a dozen works since the
        11th of March. I see her trying to win the kids over by
        over loving them. I have maintained an even keel with them
        constantly telling them to respect her, love her as their 
        mother, and that I love them. I have increased talking to
        them just out of the fact that she isn't talking to me and
        I have the need to talk to other human beings. In my
        right mind I haven't tried to turn them against her in any
        way shape of form. Christ wouldn't do it so why should I.
        They aren't and never should be used as pawns, the little
        ones are suffering enough through all of this. My heart
        really goes out to them, because she not only cheated against
        me but them also. The whole Divorce will take away the chance
        for them to be brought up in a stable Christian family that
        I believed in and wanted. I really wish she would of thought
        about all the repercussions that the affair was going to cause,
        not just to me but the kids, and relatives. I know both my
        sister and mother are deeply grieved and hurting also.
        
        Just another update note, she took off her wedding rings last Monday
        and yesterday she put them back on, possible for Church and
        Bible study. I see went I get home if she still has them on.
        
        It just seems so unfair now days that victims of an adulterous
        affair gets the worst of the treatment by the law. I have prayed
        to God, where is your justice, what is it that you want me
        to do, and what do you want to use me for.
        
        This last week-end and today has been very very bad for me, both
        physically and emotionally. I, also, just keep praying for the
        strength to keep going on. Oh the pain, hurting, and suffering
        caused by someone you still love and at one time loved me. I don't
        know if I can continue to stay at work today or not, considering
        the way I feel. I have a call into my Pastor, hopefully I can get
        in and see him soon!
        
                        Later friends, please pray for me!
                        
                                Charlie
        

re.84 Brother Charlie,

>       I have been acting very Christian like during this whole time.

	This won't last. Eventually, you will be brought to the place of 
total helplessness. God is isn't expecting christian behavior from you. Cast
your total dependence upon Him now. Just live Him. That's all. Just live Him.
Trust Him. God doesn't want you to do "what Jesus would do". He wants you to
live the life of Jesus out of you. Only when you stop struggling, will He
be able to accomplish what He is after. I know it's hard, I know what you are
going through. Confess before Him everything, then ask Him to be your supply,
come whatever may. He is faithful. You only need to humble yourself and cast
your total dependence upon Him. Every word you speak, let it be His. Every look
you cast, let it be His. This is the only way brother Charlie. The enemy will
fill your head with reasonings, murmurings, thoughts, confusion. Deny him
ground. Refuse all those thoughts. They are not yours. 

"My grace is sufficient" is your salvation through this crisis. 

sincerely,
ace
	

    Praying for you, Charlie.
    
    Mark L

    Am praying for you, Charlie.
    
    One question, do you truly believe God has control when you *surrender*
    yourself to Him? [don't answer online]  This question is for the heart
    to ponder.
    
    Then, think about what *surrender* means, look it up in the
    dictionary... do a check in the Bible... 
    
    This may sound shallow, but please ask God's wisdom in this.
    
    Nancy

    Also with you, Charlie. Psalm 142 to you.

    In His love,

				*** Daryl ***

    I'm still praying for you Charlie.  It sounds like she's trying to
    really hurt you.  The children mean the world to you.  Perhaps she
    thinks that this is the perfect was to get back at you.  Warped, I
    know, since she is in the wrong.  But a good possibility.
    
    
    
    Donna

Charlie,

	I couldn't agree with ace more.  One thing a pastor told me while I was
in my ordeal was that even Jesus was perfect, how many people have repented when
he was nailed on the cross?  But, God is in control, God is hurting when you are
hurting because you are His child.

	Praying for you...

Wally

----------
            <<< GOLF::DISK$COMMON:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
          -<  ...by Believing, you might have Life more abundantly. >-
================================================================================
Note 66.85            Closer to him now through a Divorce.              85 of 89
LEDS::LOPEZ "A River.. proceeding!"                  23 lines  29-MAR-1993 13:04
                         -< My Grace is Sufficient.. >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

re.84 Brother Charlie,

>       I have been acting very Christian like during this whole time.

	This won't last. Eventually, you will be brought to the place of 
total helplessness. God is isn't expecting christian behavior from you. Cast
your total dependence upon Him now. Just live Him. That's all. Just live Him.
Trust Him. God doesn't want you to do "what Jesus would do". He wants you to
live the life of Jesus out of you. Only when you stop struggling, will He
be able to accomplish what He is after. I know it's hard, I know what you are
going through. Confess before Him everything, then ask Him to be your supply,
come whatever may. He is faithful. You only need to humble yourself and cast
your total dependence upon Him. Every word you speak, let it be His. Every look
you cast, let it be His. This is the only way brother Charlie. The enemy will
fill your head with reasonings, murmurings, thoughts, confusion. Deny him
ground. Refuse all those thoughts. They are not yours. 

"My grace is sufficient" is your salvation through this crisis. 

sincerely,
ace
	

     Charlie,

        "For this reason I also suffer these things; nevertheless I am
         not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed and am persuaded
         that he is able to keep what I have committed to Him until
         That Day."                                        II Tim 1:12

     Don't forget upon Whom you are relying, dear Brother...

     Brian     

	Praying continually for you Charlie,
	Karen

        I have decided to delete the two notes for Nov-Dec and Jan. I anyone
        would like to see what happened in Feb and Mar please send me mail
        and I'll off line send a copy to you. I feel better doing it this way.
        
        I'll just keep this Note to the Spiritual trials, tribulations and
        growth that I have or am going through.
        
        On Tuesday I met with a Clinical Psychologist who is part of the 
        RAPHA group out of Texas. The recommendation for that way came
        from my Pastor. It went really well and from a Spiritual view
        point. This has really made me dislike the secular counselors
        that I've been to even more. Now don't take that out of context,
        I sure there are some good ones out there, that really do in
        deed help. But, my needs weren't being fulfilled by them.
        On Wednesday, I met with my Pastor to resolve some unanswered
        questions. Between both of them they really helped. Maybe
        I'll be able to cope with this better.
        
        For some reason I get upset and hurt when anything about the
        Divorce comes up, like property division and the kids. I still
        feel like I'am hurting my wife and kids. I don't want this to
        happen. I've never intentionally hurt them in the past. It must
        be that I still love them.
        
                        God bless you all,
                                Charlie

    Of course you still love them Charlie!  From your notes I can
    ascertain that!  Do not feel guilty or ashamed of this.  It is
    important to reconcile the fact that you hate what is happening but
    still love her and them.  It may be tempting to tell yourself that this
    is what is best and so on and then attempt to convince yourself that
    you don't care too much and that you don't hurt too much because of it.
    But the truth is, if I discern correctly, that you want your wife to
    repent above all, and come back "home" to reconcile your marriage.  If
    she doesn't you will do what is allowed from a Biblical perspective so
    that you can go on to live the life that God wants you to live.  This
    will be painful and there is no way to escape the pain.  It is a death
    of sorts.  Grieve appropriately and swim in God's promises in His
    Word.  You will not be disappointed but will be healed as God promises.
    I absolutely know Charlie that God will comfort you, is comforting you
    and will comfort you all the more if you will totally center on Him.  
    Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
    
    Oh how he loves you and me!
    
    In prayer for you Charlie!
    
    jeff

Incredible words, Jeff.  The Comforter surely works through you.


Sandy

re.95

	Very much agree.

	You can't give to others what you don't have yourself. It is as least
apparent to me from .94 that Jeff has received grace from his recent trial.
Out of that abundance he is able to share with brother Charlie through his
situations.

	Someone else could've said the same thing but without the same impact
as Jeff was able to. You can taste the difference in your spirit.

ace

	

        Yes, I really hate what is happening to all the people
        involved. I still love all of them to death. Still
        living in the same house has made things uneasy. I'll
        be in the kitchen fixing dinner and my wife looking at 
        the mail just wanting to hug her and tell her that I
        love her. Or I'll be doing something and she'll be
        behind me and I'll think how nice it would be to have
        her come up and give me a hug and say I love you. I'll
        lay in bed and wake up at 4:30 AM, with just with enough 
        light to see her, looking at her a sleep praying that God 
        would touch her heart. Sometimes when I do this she stirs
        as if she is uncomfortable with something, a dream or
        maybe God trying to get through. Don't know.
        
        Jeff, your right I would love to her that she has repented
        whether or not we got back together. I still believe that
        what I did was from a Biblical perspective, lots of praying
        soul searching and counseling from my Pastor.

        I'm coming to an understanding that I can't escape the pain.
        That I'm just going to have to bear it with Gods love, support,
        and comfort until such time the grieving has faded away.
        
        I really don't know right now what is more painful for me, the
        loosing of her as my wife or seeing her and the kids in pain.
        Since everything around the house seems normal, except that
        she isn't talking to me, the kids I think in all their innocence
        believe that things are going to be this way for a long time.
        I still hate having to do anything related to the Divorce
        because it still hasn't come to pass that I'm doing it because
        of her actions and not her.
        
        I have accepted and forgiven her for the fact that she not only 
        cheated on me but the 3 kids too. That she cause the kids to be 
        deprived of a loving family up bringing and a full time father. 
        I just pray that the kids are picking up on the love and how to
        forgive when being wronged. 

        I suppose some justice has been served with her losing not only
        her husband and boyfriend, but, only getting the kids for half the 
        time for her actions. I don't know if I should be thinking this way
        or not about justice being served.

        Anyway, just some passing thoughts over the last couple of days.
        

        My God richly bless each and everyone's weekend!!
                                Charlie
                                

        Right now as I write this reply a date is being set by
        the two Attorneys in Division X of the Court system for
        my fate. She is pushing for everything, Alimony, child
        support, and the house. She makes about $300.00 more a
        month than I do. We were required to fill out a income /
        expense statement. I did mine over the weekend and I
        came up with a -$43.00. No wonder I had to borrow some
        money from my Mom. I checked her's out, and it seems that
        she is claiming all the household expenses, mortgage,
        gas, electric, water and phone. The funny thing is, I have 
        paid all of these bills since day one from my checking account.
        I wonder what the Attorneys will have to day about this.
        Any way the date that is being set is for the Temporary
        Custody Hearing for the kids. My Attorney didn't want to
        file this because if we can co-exist in the same house
        with out any problems it would be a waste of time and money.
        So, he is going to counter claim or sue the same demands
        back. He is very very aggressive, know his law and is
        a part time Judge. I feel that I'm in good hands with
        him along with Gods!!
        
        My Attorney said that they, the Court, will decide on how 
        the kids will be divided, by who they feel has been the 
        primary caretaker. I don't know if its by money spent on
        them or time spent with the kids. My Pastor, after many
        visits and having heard the whole story from at least my side,
        is praying that the Courts look favorable on me when the
        kids are decided on. He is really upset at the NO FAULT 
        Divorce rules out here.
        
        Deciding on the kids! This sounds so cold and heartless, 
        treating them like a commodity to be traded or swapped.
        I really hope that when the Court interviews them the that
        truth comes out. My kids are 13, 10 and 5. The Court will
        listen to the 13 year old's statements, kind of listen to 
        the 10 year old's input, and listen very little to what the 5 
        year old has to say. I have told them that this will be coming
        up and to tell only the truth and nothing but the truth from
        their hearts and be totally honest when answering any questions.
        Also to hold nothing back about either myself or my wife.
        
        Well, the date should be set by now. I have prayed that God
        would be looking after the concerns of all parties involved. 
        That fairness and justice will prevail.
        
        Enough rambling..... Please keep the prayers coming for
                Gods fairness and justice in this matter.
                

                God Bless You All,
                
                        Charlie
        
                    

    Charlie,
    
    I am praying for you.  A word of warning, from my own personal
    experience and from probably 50 other people that I know - the Court
    can make ridiculous conclusions and they may well ignore the good of
    the children.  Case in point, I bought my first home with my first wife
    in 1957, traded for a new home in 1966, my wife died in 1976 and I sold
    that home a year later and bought a new one.  I moved in and lived
    there for two years with my teen-age sons and then met a woman that I
    married.  She lived in that house with me for just over one year.  You
    guessed it, she got half of the house.  My income was more than double
    her income during our marriage.  She also got physical custody of the
    baby although I won joint custody.
    
    I can go on about a close friend that had payements exceeding his
    income, because the decision was based on his overtime pay, which was
    eliminated by a company cutback - it took one year to get back into
    court and they would not make it retroactive.
    
    Put together all the documentation you can on how much time you spend
    with the children, who has been responsible in time of injury, stress,
    or illness - get medical records if you can to show you were the parent
    with the child.  Detail all expense records, showing who paid.  Get
    your hands on the cancelled checks showing that you paid or go to the
    bank and get microfilm copies.  Get agressive.  Recognize that it may
    not work, but go get all the supporting data you can.  Generally
    speaking the court prefers the mother in custody cases, regardless of
    her desireability versus yours.  Keep praying and give all the help you
    possibly  can to your attorney.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl

    
    
    	Be bold in the Lord!
    
    	God bless you!
    	
    	cynthia
    

    When you are going through the storm it is never easy to find the calm. 
    Charlie, this is hard to say, but let it go and let God work in their
    lives.  To continue looking for her and to find her with him at this
    point is only self destructive.  Keep your eyes focused on Christ...
    for He truly is faithful.  Just ask me, I know.
    
    This weekend has been a difficult one for me, I've had to bring closure
    to some very strong emotional ties.  Believe me, when I say I
    understand.. but having been one caught in the storm's past, Charlie,
    my brother, let it go.  Give it to the Lord, and let the almighty be
    judge.  Am praying for you.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

        I have Hidden the previous note, as to the fact that I someone
        needs to know the storm they can send me mail.
        
        I have totally, the best that I can, turned this whole storm over
        to the Lord to work. I'm just praying for comfort until all things
        are made final and that the courts will be fair and just. I don't
        have much control over what will happen. But when I do, I pray that
        what I will do is in accordance with what He want's me to do.
        

                        Please pray with me,
                                Charlie
                                
        

        Please I need prayers from all of you today. I have to 
        go to the Mediator for deciding on how to divide up
        the Kids, the household, the household items. This is a
        very very painful thing to do. I have the appt. in about
        1 hour.
        
                                Thanks,
                                Charlie
                                

    Praying too!

    I'm with you in prayer also, Charlie.  Though hopefully you knew that.
    :-)

				*** Daryl ***

    Praying constantly for you, Charlie.  Keep us posted.


Sandy

        Oh thank you all for your prayers!!!!!!!!!
        All went well if you want to call it that. The Mediator
        and I talked about the process of ripping 11 years
        of marriage a part. This was ever so much depressing.
        I said a prayer before going in for the Lord to take
        this battle of good and bad. Since He is so much
        better at it than I could ever be. I believe He
        was there. In any case, he and I talked about possibly
        working enough out that we can for go the Temporary
        Custody Hearing scheduled for May 7. This would save
        a lot of money and time! My wife filed for it, my Attorney
        told me that if we can live at the house with out
        any problems then there is no need to bother. Any way,
        next Wednesday we both go back to start the shreding of
        our marriage. I can really see now why God hates divorce!
        
                        Keep me in your prayers,
                        Charlie
        

Praying with you, Charlie, for next Wednesday, leading up to, and going on 
from, as well...

							Andrew

        Thank you all for your prayer support. Boy, do I need it!!!!!
        This whole storm has drawn me closer to Him. Maybe this is
        part of his plan?
                
        May you all have a nice and blessed weekend.
        
                                In constant prayer,
                                        Charlie
        

        Just a quick update. My wife told the mediator that
        she had given up on her boyfriend, this was Wednesday,
        and Monday night told my 5 year old the same. Now
        about an hour ago I get a call from her boyfriends
        wife and she tells me that to this day they are still
        seeing each other and having lunch and phone calls.
        Her boyfriend and his wife signed the refinancing
        papers today for their house. This is where she got
        the information. Now about 1/2 hour ago my wife left
        for her work to finish up a project. Can I really
        believe her? I surmise that her lawyer told her to
        cool it with the boyfriend. She tried to, but truth
        prevails and she was found out again. How this is
        going to impact the kids? I can only see more pain
        and suffering for them. Why does she insist on 
        hurting them and me, we haven't done a thing to hurt
        her. I just pray that God will comfort them when
        she is exposed again. I suppose that satan felt that
        there wasn't enough damage and destruction done so
        he decide to have at it again.
        
        I will not and have not done anything to hurt her
        through out this whole process of divorce, the Lord
        said Vengeance is mine! I don't know if I'm wrong in
        praying for him to hurry up with his vengeance or not.
        I continue to put it in his hands to work out.
        

                Praise Jesus Christ the Son of God,
                        Charlie

Continuing to pray, Charlie, that the LORD's hand would work miraculously 
on this business for His glory and for the joy and vindication of His 
children.

							Andrew

        Well, God must be answering our prayers. My wife's Attorney said
        that she wanted to put the Temporary Custody Hearing on hold, as
        long as my wife and I can co-exist in a adult fashion. I can I 
        can't speak for my wife. This was suppose to take place May 7th.
        My Attorney told me that it would be a big waste of time and
        money. I have to agree with him.
        
        Tomorrow at 9:00 MST is when I go in to the Mediator with my wife
        to start the real ripping a part of our marriage, the kids and
        our personal items. How cruel, and paninful this world can be.
        Thanks to the Lord for being there as a friend and counselor
        to me.
        
        I don't know, but I feel why should I have to pay her or give up
        anything to her for having and Adulterous Affair, totally
        destroying 2 families and making a total mockery of Gods plan
        of marriage. I pray that God will deal with her to take care of the 
        continuation of the sin in her life. I also pray that He will be
        fair and just with me and the kids.
        
        Just listening the the kids talk, not prompting them in anyway, they
        would really be upset if and when she moves out and has her boyfriend
        move in with her. My 5 year old said that she would tell him "to move
        out and leave my mom alone." I have kept silent for the last month(s)
        from telling them anything, But, I suppose that closer to the end it
        gets I'll have to tell them what they need to here about whats going
        to happen and when. I have seen that my talk with them back in Jan
        has left a big impact on them for forgiveness. I felt that if they
        can't forgive what she did and see the affects, then how can they know
        the forgiveness of sin coming from God.
        
        Oh well, please pray for fairness and justice for me tomorrow and
        pray for the well being of the kids. That the kids will be in His 
        hands for protection from this storms harm. That He may direct the 
        Mediator to be sure and true.
        
                In the name of Jesus, the Son of God, I ask all of this,
                                        Charlie

        Well, just an update. Today at 10:00 MST I go to court for the
        Temporary Custody Hearing. My wife just wanted to do this to
        get the ball rolling. Just to get the ball rolling it's going
        to cost us each about $250.00. I can sure think of many other
        people that could use this money.
        
        My Attorney and I have found out that my wife is hiding money
        and her Attorney is using a out dated salary of my wifes to
        figure the child support. Supposedly she is also to pay half
        the household expenses from the date of filing, she hasn't.
        So, it's totaling up at $16.00 per day that she will owe me.
        
        I ask for prayers that the Judge will be fair and just today.
        That guidance and wisdom will be given to the Attorneys to
        do what is right. That guidance, wisdom and understanding will 
        also be given to me to accept whatever the judgement is.
        

                I ask this in the name of our Lord, Jesus Christ,
                
                                Charlie
                                

        Well, it was a waste of time and money. I just sat in the court
        room for about 10 - 15 min while the Judge and the Attorneys 
        were in the back room. The Judge signed the papers without
        even reading them. I used the 10-15 min to pray and converse
        with God. Now my wife is refusing to up hold some of the 
        Court Orders.
        
        For Mothers day..... it was really awful for my wife. Even though
        she has hurt me so much I still feel sorry and am hurting for her.
        It all revolves around how she has treated the kids in the past
        and how she treated them yesterday. I suppose that it boils down
        to you reap what you sow. I still pray for her health and well being
        no matter what she has done to me or will try and do to me.
        
        Please continue all the prayers and thoughts for what is left of
        my family.
        
                        In His Name,
                        Charlie
                        

    
    while perusing this note, the following memory came to mind:
    
    several years ago, a gallup poll showed that 1 in every 2-1/2
    marriages in the U.S. ended in divorce.  the same poll showed
    that for couples who prayed together, only 1 in 1015 ended in
    divorce.
    
    40% vs. <.1%  seems like pretty good return on investment.
    
    God is faithful, and i don't expect the statistics have changed
    much today.

    Whoa!! Jim, do you hear those skids in front of you!!!
    
    
    Nice to see you in hear/here. :-) :-)  oh yeah can you check out 149
    while you're in here?
    
    Nancy

        All readers, Please I really need your prayers for support and comfort
        for my kids. I had to call the County Child Abuse Center on my wife
        Sunday. My wife came home from teaching Sunday School to pick up my
        other son and then go back to Church. While she was home and I was
        outside cutting the lawn she really mentally and physically abused
        my eldest son. After she left for church I found out what had
        happened while I was outside. Thats after I had my son unbarriacade
        his bedroom door. He had put 2 beds, a table and chair in front of the
        door to keep his mother out. Please I really need God's love and
        support for them and myself right now.
        
                        Charlie
                        
        

    Charlie,
    
    I am praying for your children and this situation... May offer Psalms
    27 to you, specifically look at verse 10.  
    
    "When my father and my mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me
    up."
    
    The whole chapter is comforting.. it talks about God's protection.
    
    Nancy

	Charlie,

	You were on my heart yesterday... now I know why.

	Praying.

	Karen

        Thanks for the prayers!!!!
        
        I just got off the phone with the Abuse Center. They aren't going to
        do anything!! Why you ask, well they say that he is old enough to
        protect himself. What's he suppose to do grab a knife or a bat and
        go after her? I've taught him better than to do that.
        
        I called the Sheriff's office and asked if I could still file charges
        on his behalf. They said "Oh if you want to and if I felt it could 
        hold up in court". The feeling I got from the Abuse Center is that 
        if there was black eyes, blood or broken bones then they would pursue
        it. But just let a school teacher look cross eyed at a student and 
        everyone from about the Governor on down suddenly get involved.
        
        All I can say is that if I had been in the house at the time it was 
        happening I possibly could of been driven to do some real un-Christian
        like actions toward my wife on my son's behalf. I really am praying to
        be angry but sin not...... 
        
                                Charlie
                                

    Charlie,
    
    What can you do?  Ther eis so much you *can* do.  First, if you weren't
    there, don't jump to conclusions as to what actually happened.  This
    whole situation is highly emotionally charged.  Children suffer because
    they feel powerless, yet at fault for everything that is happening. 
    Their anger becomes displaced.  If he has displayed anger at your ex,
    she most likely didn't receive it well... and he's not any the better
    for it either... on the surface.
    
    As I don't know what happened in your home... everything I am about to
    say is based on personal experience in hopes that perhaps *something*
    might strike a chord with you.
    
    Anger and Resentment... Satan's greatest weapons against a Christian. 
    And if that can be instilled in a young child, he'll wreak havoc in
    that life and stunt spiritual growth.  So many things to say here, gee
    where do I start...
    
    God's greatest commandment is to *love*.  We are to *love* God, who is
    our creator, and love our neighbors, who is his creation.  When the
    ability to receive and give out God's love becomes a pick and choose
    action, then we have not truly followed the commandment.  It is through
    the blockage of God's love towards us and from us, in which lies
    Satan's lie.  
    
    The most important thing to teach your children is to *love* their
    mother regardless of her behavior.  They don't have to condone it. 
    This *is* the most difficult lesson, I believe in all our Christian
    walks.   
    
    My ex is alcoholic, he left me, we divorced.  However, he became a
    wonderful every other weekend Dad.  He now spends quality time with our
    children, as he never had before..... he is also commanded to stay
    sober [not even touch alcohol] by the California Family Court system.
    
    My oldest son became extremely resentful towards me because he now sees
    Dad as this good guy that Mom won't let back in to our home.  He misses
    his father, he wants him full time.  
    
    I could very easily let my *hurt* in the relationship take precedence
    over what God says to do... forgive and forgive and forgive... but he
    doesn't say tolerate sinful behavior.  We can forgive the person, we do
    not forgive the behavior.  
    
    My response as my son was acting out his angry and resentful feelings
    towards me, was to *not* say anything negative about his father.  But
    agree with him that his Dad was being a good father now.  I accepted
    his anger, and validated his resentment... and when he was calm, I
    demonstrated God's love towards my ex for my son to witness.  I was
    able to let me son know that the divorce was a result of sin in *both*
    our lives and God's word says there are consequences to our behavior. 
    And that his anger [which ultimately is towards God] was okay... as
    long as he's angry at the sin and not me or his father.
    
    As his anger could then be guided towards the sin... he could begin to
    understand the *love* of God, which in agape is forgiving and covers a
    multitude of sins.
    
    This has helped my relationship with my son(s), as well as helped them
    to *love* their Dad regardless of what he does and not accept what he
    does as okay.
    
    It's tough... and it doesn't happen overnight.  As parent's when we
    are wounded by a mate... our children can become a source of comfort..
    but be careful, because you are giving that child a sense of
    responsibility that their little shoulders aren't prepared to bear.
    
    For those reading [not you personally Charlie] who either have divorced
    or are going through a divorce,  a few helpful hints:
    
    1.  Don't tell your children *everything* about the broken
        relationship... neither lie if specific questions are asked.
    
    2.  When asked and you must explain, be careful to not *judge* your
        mate in anyway.  Never say negative things about the person,
        though you can identify behavior that is sin for discernment.
    
    3.  Don't rely or request comfort from your children.  Let them be
        a source of comfort without them knowing it.  In other words,
        if you are hurting, crying or just upset, don't go to them
        for hugs, snuggles or love.  Get on your knees and get it from
        God... then go to your children with the love to give... believe
        me that is when you are comforted the most.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy
    

    Hmmm...
    
    Not sure if this was clear or not...
    
    Matthew my oldest, though became angry at me, knew in his heart and
    remembered the awful fighting between his father and I prior to the
    divorce.  He remembered the drunk-a-logues... but he's only 10, and his
    memory [because I don't say negative things about his father] remembers
    the good things about his Dad, that I *do* emphasize.
    
    I had to allow him to be angry at me, without retaliation in order for
    the love of God to truly be real to him.  It could be very easy for my
    boys to be angry at God for not saving their Dad...
    
    Just as I spent 8 years away from God because of my anger at Him for
    not saving my Dad.....
    
    I hope this has helped.
    
    Nancy

                I just got off the phone with my attorney, his is starting the
        paper to have her evicted from the house. Per his request I have call
        the Sheriff and they will send someone out to the house this afternoon
        to interview my son and myself for the abuse charge. I have talked to
        my Pastor and felt that he is behind be in what I'm doing and is
        praying that I will have the strength tonight. God will not allow
        us more than we can endure. He says that he will be available to
        come over and comfort the kids and myself if needed. It has come to
        the protection of the children from me, and the state. I suppose
        that she is now bearing the fruits of her sin and continuation
        of them. Please I need all your prayers to endure what is forth
        coming tonight, that God will indeed allow me to handle it. I
        believe He will!!!! He has promised. And that is good enough for
        me.
        
                So, please pray for the kids and myself for Gods hands
                to surround us with His protection and Love.
                
                      Currently very shaken and hurting,
                                Charlie
                                
        

That was rich stuff Nancy.  Thank you.

Praying for you all, Charlie...

							Andrew

    
    
    	My heart and prays go out to you and your family Charlie.
    	
    
    	Nancy - you are truly blessed with eloquence of expression -
    	to me it's like singing a song in praise of the Lord - the 
    	words and melody are written and one can sing them in relation
    	and not feel so lonely anymore.  
    
    	
    	My highest regards to the Lord.
    
    
    	Cynthia
    
    
	
    	

        

        Well, my wife is still in the house, still coming home late and
        spending very little time with the kids, maybe 15 to 20 min a
        night at the most. By all your prayers God is helping me stay
        sane, calm and to love and care for the kids in their very
        mixed up home. 
        
        Monday the date will be set for the actual divorce. I pray that
        it is soon so that life can get on toward a more normal, as
        normal as it can be, way for me and the kids. I can seen the
        tension building in the kids that even a knife couldn't cut right
        now by the way she is treating them and her absence. My eldest son
        is spending more and more time away from the house when she "is"
        around, I think it is to avoid her after what she did to him 
        Sunday. I still try to bestow upon them to treat her with love
        and respect that she deserves because she still is and always
        will be their mother no matter what she has done or is currently
        doing. God has been gracious enough with his love for me to
        forgive her and set a good example of how to still show love to
        a person that has deeply someone.

    Charlie,
    
    It's okay to be angry... but direct the anger.  And its okay to not do
    everything *right* in this situation.  Do what you can and a little
    more as God gives you strength to minimize the casualties... but there
    are casualties.
    
    I am praying for you, your wife and your children.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

I think you'll find the divorce date to be something like 90 days from 
pronouncement.  That's how it happened to a friend of mine in Massachusetts.

Hold on, Charlie.  :-)

        


        According to my Attorney the 90th day from the official filing is 
        today. The divorce date can be set for any day after the 90 day
        waiting period. Monday when the date is set, the date could be
        Tuesday or December of 1999. I'm told that it all depends on
        the schedules of the two Attorneys and the available dates in
        for the courts, all three have to agree on a date.
        
        This has been a long 3 months, I praise and thank God that He
        had held me together for this long. And, it's been 6 months since
        my wife told me of the Affair. I know of 2 things that my wife
        is going to protest in court, both of them are dollar related.
        I want 50/50 she wants it all. According to my Attorney if it
        is left up to the Judge to make a decision then in a majority,
        if not always, he will divide it 50 / 50. Since this state is
        No Fault, the Judge really doesn't want to be put in a position
        of having to listen to a battle between the Attorneys over any-
        thing. Also, I have been told that last year just over 900 
        divorces were appealed and only 2 were over turned, so that is
        why I wanted as much as possible in the 50 / 50 range.
        
        Anyway Please continue the prayers,
        

                        Charlie
                        

	The children always get hurt the most in a divorce.

        RE: -.1
        
                Boy isn't that the truth. That is why when the eviction takes
        place I have my Pastor ready to come over and comfort and aid my kids
        if they need it. I've tried and prayed that I can be there in their
        time of need when this comes to pass. It's so hard to look into their
        eyes when they're happy and having fun, knowing full well that just
        around the corner that could all be turned to tears. Now that hurts!
        Last night on the way home my 5 year old gave me my Fathers day card
        early, she couldn't wait, and after I read what she wrote I was ever
        so close to losing it.
        
                                        Charlie
                                        

        Well to sum things up, I still need all your prayers and thoughts.
        The saga continues with the Court won't evict my wife, the kids
        don't really want to go live with their mother and boyfriend, but
        the Court won't hear of anything other than a 50/50 split and
        the divorce will be final on Oct 4th. The stress and taxation of
        my religious beliefs are really getting me down. I've had to come
        to grips with a lot of things. The whole saga has really tried and
        tested my faith. I've overcome the temptation to do some very
        un-Christian like actions. Like how to maintain a Christian attitude
        when she is out in California with her boyfriend for 5 days after a
        couple of days of training for her work.
        
        I was going to enter this in the Request Note, but I opted to enter
        it here for continuity reasons. If the mod(s) deem it necessary to
        move this note, then by all means please go ahead and move it.
        
        I just wanted to ask for the continuation of the prayers and thoughts
        for my 3 kids, mostly for them, and for me and my sanity.

        Sorry if this note is disjointed, it's just a reflection of my frame
        of mind over the last couple of months.
        
                                Charlie

    No problem Charlie... you're note is fine where it is.. and prayers
    haven't ceased for you from this end. 
    
    Charlie, I've probably said this before, but I'm going to say it
    "again" anyway.
    
    Remember that you are not a reflection of your wife's behavior or
    choices.  Your reflection comes from Christ and the more you look to
    Him the less you'll need to look at "her" to see yourself.
    
    With love,
    Nancy

    
    Charlie.  I acknowledge your sorrow and needs.  I pray for you.  I pray
    that God will reveal Himself to you in the marvelous way that He does
    when we're weak.  And I pray that you will continue to trust Him.
    
    jeff

        Well, today is the day when the secular Courts will dissolve my
        marriage. I'm a total wreck right now. If I could ask, could you
        pray for me and the children. I'm beginning to see how God has 
        worked His hand through out this trial of mine. I pray that He
        will continue to surround me and the kids with His abundant love
        for us. Just a footnote, my marriage was 4530 day's long and it's
        be a real trial for the last 301 days since my wife told me of
        her affair. Nothing has changed on her part, still teaching
        Sunday school, helping with the Church service, neglecting the 
        children and continuing on strongly with boyfriend against the
        wishes of the children. I'm trying very hard not to judge her
        and her actions and let God handle it, but I'm only human and by
        all means I'm far from being perfect, that is until I'm risen 
        with Him. So, at 1:30pm MST the tearing a part of what God had
        put together starts. I really pray that it will finish today and
        not drag on, physically and mentally it is a real taxing 
        experience.
        

                                        Charlie

    Charlie, may the Holy Spirit be with you through this difficult time.
    My feelings and thoughts I lay on the shoulders of the Holy Spirit,
    that the Spirit may carry my true feelings to the Holy Father.
      Praying for your situation Charlie, 
        PDM

Remembering you before the LORD today especially, Charlie.  And you, the 
children, and their mother, for the days to come, each one lived under the 
LORD's loving eyes.

							Andrew

    God be with you, Charlie, in this trying time.!
    
    Bob G.
    

    No words can comfort the torment you feel, but my prayers are certainly
    there for you Charlie and for your children.
    
    Nancy

         Charlie,
         
         Lifting you up also from the UK - now 1610hrs here - and conscious 
         that the "hour" is approaching. May God's loving, comforting, 
         gracious arm of His Holy Spirit be around you and the children 
         even now, and remain with you, to give you a fresh revitalisation 
         of the fullness from Christ Himself *each* new day. Lord may you 
         be glorified through this "total wreck" to the extent that his 
         self-esteem, his physical, emotional, and spiritual resources are 
         restored. 
         
         In the powerful name of the Lord Jesus Christ
         
         Amen

    Praying for you, Charlie.  And praying specifically for peace and
    comfort for you and your children.
    
    In Him,
    
    -greta

                

                Thanks to all who have prayed for me and the kids. For now
          "it is finished". The Lord has held true to His word of being
          Loving, Kind, Caring, Generous, and Compassionate, of course I could
          go on. The burden has been lifted from me and the kids. As for
          my wife, I looked at her in the Court room and prayed that the Lord
          would not hurt her in the final judgment, but also not hurt me.
          That the judge would be fair and just. He was just that. Of course
          my wife didn't come home till very late last night, she was out
          partying with her boyfriend. The judge told her she had to be
          out of the house by Wednesday and her personal items out within
          2 weeks. But, now she is responsible for her actions, and it's
          between the Lord and her. I still pray that the Lord has mercy on
          her soul and that she will repent of her sins and once again
          truly turn to Him. Now that the smoke is starting to clear I
          can see where the Lord was throughout this whole divorce, that
          He was indeed there but my mind was clouded. It brings to mind
          the foot prints on the beach story, how true how true!!! He has
          carried me the whole time. Again, thank you for all the prayers
          and support throughout this mess, and my the Lord richly bless
          you as He has done to me.


                Praise and thanksgiving to the one who delivers!
                        Charlie
                        

    A VERY solemn Amen, Charlie. - PDM

    Charlie,
    
    May your faith in His care for you continue to increase and abound.  I
    realize that this has been a *very* trying time in your life.  Even
    though the results of the judgement were favorable, I realize that
    there is also a great sadness to see things have to come to the
    results that they did.
    
    May the Lord also use you to heal any wounds in the hearts of your
    children.
    
    Mark L.

    Charlie,
    
    God Bless and keep you and your children in His care.
    
    I still find no words to express the agony I know you must feel, and
    the sweetness of the Lord's comfort.  Remember, no matter what, the
    innocence of your children can be restored, even through this.
    
    Nancy

    Charlie,
    
    I'm glad that God has been upholding you. What was the final decision
    on custody of the kids? Was the judge willing to listen to their desire
    to not be with their mother?
    
    nw

                Well, the final decision was to put the kids on a 2 week
        schedule with each parent, every Wednesday and Sunday night the
        kids would go to the non-custody parent. And the 2 week swap
        would be on Sunday night at 7:30. I wanted the visits to be
        on Thursday and then on the next Tuesday, so that there wouldn't
        be a problem with the children's activities. This would allow no
        more than 4 days for the children not seeing the other parent.
        When the children start sports on Wednesday nights the respective
        parent will be attending that event and not able to spend the
        time with the other children. With the 2 weeks starting for me
        last Sunday night means that she will have them for Thanksgiving,
        Christmas, the eldest's birthday and Halloween. I'm trying to
        at least get them for Thanksgiving. I told them that whatever
        Holiday they weren't with me, that we would have our own
        Holiday either before or after they were away.
        
                The whole idea, at least here in Colorado, is No-Fault
        Divorce. Basically the Judge will split everything down the middle
        50 / 50 if it wasn't decided before hand between the two parties.
        At least one good thing is that there will be no alimony either
        way but SHE will have to pay me child support for the next
        13 - 15 years until the youngest become of age!
        
                My wife was give until Wednesday the 6th to go find somewhere
        else to live, actually her last night in the house was Monday. And
        all her settlement items had to be out before the 18th of October.
        She has come over a couple of time to pack, this has somewhat cause
        a disruption with the kids. She turned in her keys and garage door
        opener last night. Of course yesterday I had to stay home to wait
        on the delivery of a new TV, Refrigerator, Kitchen table, and 
        firewood. I changed the garage door opener electronic combination
        and had a Locksmith re-key all the locks anyway. So in essence
        if she comes in the house without me there she is trespassing.

                I now just have to wait until the 18th and let the smoke
        clear and pickup the pieces. Then assess what I need to go out and
        buy for the kids. The good Lord has kept me sane thus far and I
        have faith that He will keep sane in the future.
                
                One interesting thing is that she hasn't cooked no more than
        6 meals in as many months, hasn't done the children's laundry for
        the same period of time, able to come and go as she pleased and
        coming home late. When she has the kids I think she'll be in for a
        culture shock having to now fully take care of the kids as I have
        done in the past. I'll be keeping my ear to the ground for any 
        problems that may occur at her house. I talked to the 2 youngest's
        kids principal yesterday to inform her of the situation and to have
        their teachers keep an eye on the 2 kids for any divorce related
        problems so that I can take the necessary action to help them over
        come it.
        
                I suppose I rambled on more than the original question of
         Nancy's........Sorry.
         
                                Charlie
                                

        Well, over the weekend while my ex-wife was moving the last of
        her items out she cause a problem. A problem big enough for
        me to call the Sheriff and sign a 3rd assault complaint against
        her. I suppose that the note my Attorney wrote to me during the
        actual divorce hearing comes into play. He wrote on a piece of
        paper and slipped it to me, it said "How did you live with her
        this long?". I believe that it's my Christian standards and the
        willingness to turn the other cheek in the times of adversity
        and tolerate things. She took the kids over to her place after
        the Sheriff left about 4:45. The Divorce decree stated that I
        would return them at 7:30. Oh how my heart cry's out in pain
        for them. Who knows what she is going to do to them. The hurt
        and pain from what she had done to me by the affair is gone,
        thanks to God removing it per my request and prayers. But,
        it's the poor little ones that I grieve for. I really need
        some support and prayers, not so much for me but for my kids.
        I was never able to say good bye, for the 2 weeks swap, to my
        5 and 13 year old, but my 10 year old son came up to me and
        gave me the biggest hug.......... Oh did that hurt.....

    	I'm a new member of this conference.  I may have taken a peek
    	in here from time to time in the past, but I don't recall ever
    	writing here.  I've heard from many sources how intolerant this
    	conference is, so I decided to really read through and see for
    	myself.  I've been reading for quite a while now, going through
    	topic after topic, day after day, perusing historical entries
    	and following them through.

    	Rumors are wrong.

    	So that's my misplaced intro note.


    	Joe Oppelt
    -------------------------

    	This topic really grabbed me.  It is a subject that is very
    	dear to my heart, because my wife, Linda, and I have found our
    	ministerial niche in this world, and it is marriage ministry.
    	(No, we're not ministers, so please don't misconstrue.)  We
    	give most of our time to the Lord (outside of prayer and worship
    	time) in various Marriage Ministries.  We counsel engaged couples
    	in our parish through various marriage prep programs.  We heavily
    	support Marriage Encounter, especially as weekend presenters.
    	We are the chair couple for a citywide (Colorado Springs) 
    	ecumenical marriage celebration on Feb 12, 1995.  We are also
    	working with Marriage Encounter to get that date (the second
    	Sunday of February each year) to be declared World Marriage Day
    	at as high a level as we can (state, federal, world.)

    	Marriage is very important to us.

    	So is divorce.

    	On September 14 and 15 we will be on the air with Dr. Dobson on his 
    	Focus On The Family radio program to discuss marriage, and remedies
    	for troubles marriages.  A syndicated columnist, Mike McManus,
    	wrote a book about the sorry state of marriage in this society.
    	His book is called Marriage Savers, and it is the subject of the
    	two-session show.  Linda and I were asked to join in the discussion
    	to represent Marriage Encounter, and to give a little information
    	about ourselves and our weekend.  In his book Mike McManus declares
    	Marriage Encounter to be "The Best Marriage Saver".   (See Chapter
    	9.)

    	Every couple should attend a Marriage Encounter weekend before they
    	hit the rocks.  (We'd like to suggest that be taken a step further
    	and all couples who have made a Marriage Encounter make anniversary
    	weekends every 3-5 years -- if not more often.)  Fully 90% of 
    	couples making a Marriage Encounter weekend recapture the special
    	freshness, newness, romance, etc., of their relationship from
    	when they were dating/newlyweds.

    	In addition to Marriage Encounter, Mike McManus devotes a whole
    	chapter (see chapter 10) to a weekend experience called Retrouvaille 
    	(ret-roo-vye, which in French means rediscovery).  Where Marriage 
    	Encounter is focused to pre-troubled marriages, Retrouvaille is 
    	for marriages that have already fallen over the precipice.  Most 
    	couples making the weekend are already separated and conteplating 
    	or filing for divorce.  Some are already divorced.  Both partners 
    	of couples attending the weekend must still have a desire for 
    	reconciliation.  They must also agree to participate in support 
    	group follow-ups.

    	Retrouvaille has a 75% success rate.

    	Just as we represented Marriage Encounter on the FOF broadcast, 
    	another couple represented Retrouvaille, and their story is 
    	gripping and touching.  They went on Retrouvaille the weekend 
    	before they were to file for divorce (if I recall correctly from 
    	the taping).  The rest is history.

    	Mike McManus also discusses other ways to save marriage.  He starts
    	from childhood -- what we can do for our kids in the homes,
    	churches, schools, etc. -- and progresses through adolescence into
    	dating, then engagement, and through marriage.  If you think about
    	it, we as married couples get PERHAPS 6 months of preparation
    	as engageds, and then are tossed out into the stormy seas of this
    	society in a mere life raft to be battered daily by negative
    	messages and images and influences.  "Marriage Savers" is a book
    	that any married couple should read -- especially those who are
    	married in the name of the Lord, for we all hold a special 
    	purpose and even an obligation to be a sign of His love for 
    	the church (Ephesians 5:32),

    	You can get a flavor of the book by listening in to the Focus On
    	The Family broadcasts Sept 14-15 1994.  

    	Joe Oppelt

Hello Joe - and welcome!  I'm so relieved that those rumors were wrong,
If they weren't, there might not be room for me.... ;-)

Sounds a powerful ministry you are engaged in, and one sorely needed in 
these days.  The media increasingly represent relationships - including and 
especially marriage - as 'disposable' and 'for convenience only', while 
really they reach deep within and any relationship becomes a part of us
throughout our life.  Including the fellowship here.  I've an ache for many 
who have moved on, even though there's a warmth in the heart knowing that 
we will meet where there's no separation....

Looking forward to hearing more from you, Joe!

						God bless
							Andrew

    	I could comment on thousands of things that were brought up
    	in this topic, but I'll limit it to just a few:
    
    	in .28 it was said:
    
>	 But I believe
>        until she comes back to Christ of her own wishes or God induced wish,
>        we'll never be able to work things out. 
    
    	In our parish's marriage prep program it is stressed that both
    	partners have to respect the others' faith.  Neither should be
    	entering this marriage with the intent of changing the other (in
    	this area or any other as well.)  A person must want to change
    	for himself.  Change at the hands of the other is a sure recipe
    	for resentment.  Faith differences is a major cause of separation
    	and divorce.  (BTW, the largest is simply lack of communication.)
    	Our pastor won't approve of a marriage where one partner intends
    	to convert the other.
    
    	But to balance this we also present a whole series of statistics
    	that incluse what was presented in .118:
    
>    the same poll showed
>    that for couples who prayed together, only 1 in 1015 ended in
>    divorce.
    
    	In our marriage I was (and in many ways still am) the spiritual
    	laggard, and for a long time I really resented the spiritual
    	pressure Linda applied to me.  Then one day Linda heard a 
    	"message" while in prayer.   "You love Joe very much, but 
    	understand that I love him even more than you do.  I will
    	take care of him."  And from that day on she let go.  I
    	didn't notice it, (you don't notice the absence of pain...),
    	but somehow the freedom from the smothering love allowed me
    	to begin to grow on my own, and I was soon attending retreats
    	and a Life In The Spirit Seminar, and finally a Celebrate
    	Love marriage enrichment weekend designed to increase spirituality
    	between spouses, and we now pray together each day for each 
    	other, for our kids, and even for passion in our relationship.
    
    	I thank God for the gift of the spouse He gave me, and for the
    	life paths He has directed us towards so that we have been able
    	to weather the storms and find the marital and spiritual guidance
    	we needed to survive and grow closer.  We now accept His call
    	to help others see those paths, just as loving people directed
    	us to various weekends and workshops (and continue to do so.)

    HI Joe!!!  Wow, it is nice to see you in here... and hear about your
    upcoming FoF broadcast.  Unfortunately, I do not have a radio station
    here that I know of on which to listen and/or get this.
    
    Obviously, they must be taping these, right? :-)  Do you know where
    this is leading????
    
    Welcome to Christian, hopefully a haven of encouragement and familial
    links for you too.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

 FoF does make tapes available of most of their programs.  I don't have
the 800 number handy, however, but have it at home.



BTW..Welcome, Joe...good to see you here.




Jim

	Wow, ya learn something new about people everyday! Joe, that's really
cool with what you are doing. Helping people stay together is a GREAT service
to God, and to the people. Good luck with it!

	Dr. Dobson? Hmmm..... :-)


Glen

    It's really good having Joe sign in here... really good.
    
    

    Welcome aboard, Joe.  I'll be listening for you in Sept. on FOF.  It
    will be cool putting a voice to your notes...so to speak.  8^)

>    Obviously, they must be taping these, right? :-)  Do you know where
>    this is leading????
    
    	They will be giving us a bunch of tapes for distribution (I'm
    	not sure how many) and additional ones after that for $1 each.
    	I can get you one Nancy.
    
    	Also they will be sending us a nationwide (worldwide?) listing
    	of stations that carry the show, so maybe there *IS* a station
    	in your area.  For anyone interested in finding out about a 
    	station in their area, send me mail and when I get the listing 
    	I can let you know what is airing out your way.
    
    	I haven't heard the final production yet.  They taped 1 hour
    	for each half hour show and will edit it down.  It's been scary
    	these past few months (we taped in June) replaying over and over
    	in my mind, in my dreams, in my NIGHTMARES :^) what was said in
    	the taping -- wondering if I put my foot in my mouth, wondering
    	if I said anything I'll regret, wondering if I said anything
    	someone else will hate me for.  As we left the building Linda
    	and I looked at each other and reassured each other that we did
    	fine, but the distortion of time has turned this event into a
    	burr under my saddle, always poking me and telling me that I'm
    	going to regret something.  I hesitated to post the announcement
    	here, but at the same time I have a lot of faith that the Lord 
    	will not allow this event in His work to be sour or negative.
    
    	And (maybe I should be posting this in the Focus on the Family
    	topic) Dr. Dobson is one of the most personable men you could
    	ever want to meet in person.  He quickly put us at ease when we
    	met in his office before the taping.  He autographed a book of
    	his that we brought, and chatted about swimming and families and
    	other stuff (including his experiences when he made a Marriage
    	Encounter weekend.)

� It's been scary .... wondering if I said anything I'll regret, wondering if 
� I said anything someone else will hate me for. 
.
.
� As we left the building Linda and I looked at each other and reassured each
� other that we did fine, 
.
.
� but the distortion of time has turned this event into a burr under my saddle,
� always poking me and telling me that I'm going to regret something. 
.
.
� I hesitated to post the announcement here, but at the same time I have a lot
� of faith that the Lord will not allow this event in His work to be sour or
� negative. 
 
Joe, this corresponds to my experience of how the LORD works through us too.
We 'step out in faith', saying what He gives, maybe scarcely daring to admit
that the LORD is giving the words which we would not dare to say of our own
volition. 

Then He gives a brief warmth of His assurance and peace over the matter, which 
then has to suffice us for the times when the enemy attacks, and tempts us to 
doubt His leading.  Building our faith...

						God bless
								Andrew

    Joe, friend, buddy ol' pal, :-)
    
    A tape and a station would be wonderful!
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy

	Here are a few things that Jesus had to say about divorce. Here's
	a question to all you CHRISTIAN noters, what does your church
	teach about divorce? Will you pastor marry someone who has been
	divorced before? Under what conditions?

	Sorry if this topic has been discussed before. If it has then I
	would appreciate any pointers to the note, even if it is in one
	of the older CHRISTIAN conferences. I have done a quick look here
	at the keyword list and did not find anything.

	Mathew 5:31-32

	...It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a
	   certificate of divorce.' 
	   But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on
	   the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever
	   marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 


	Matthew 19

	3 And Pharisees came up to him and tested him by asking, "Is it lawful
	  to divorce one's wife for any cause?" 
	4 He answered, "Have you not read that he who made them from the
	  beginning made them male and female, 
	5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother
	  and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 
	6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has
	  joined together, let not man put asunder." 
	7 They said to him, "Why then did Moses command one to give a
	  certificate of divorce, and to put her away?" 
	8 He said to them, "For your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to
	  divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 
	9 And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for unchastity,
	  and marries another, commits adultery." 

	Mark 10

	2 And Pharisees came up and in order to test him asked, "Is it lawful
	  for a man to divorce his wife?" 
	3 He answered them, "What did Moses command you?" 
	4 They said, "Moses allowed a man to write a certificate of divorce,
	  and to put her away." 
	5 But Jesus said to them, "For your hardness of heart he wrote you
	  this commandment. 
	6 But from the beginning of creation, 'God made them male and female.' 
	7 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be
	  joined to his wife, 
	8 and the two shall become one flesh.' So they are no longer two but
	  one flesh. 
	9 What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder." 
	10 And in the house the disciples asked him again about this matter. 
	11 And he said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another, 
	   commits adultery against her; 
	12 and if she divorces her husband and marries another, she commits
	   adultery." 


	Peter.

    The preceeding note was moved here for continuity.
    
    Nancy Morales

 My pastor will not marry someone who has been divorced.


 To clarify, I mean, will not perform the ceremony.




Jim

    
    re:-1
    
    Even in a case where before either person was 'saved' and the husband 
    abandoned the wife and the husband subsequently married the women he
    had been having an adulterous relationship with, the pastor would 
    not perform a marriage for that abandoned woman who later became 
    saved?

 I'd have to check the bylaws of the church, but I suspect that in the
 scenario you presented he might.  It is not the pastor's decision, 
 ultimately.  He is subject to the bylaws of the church and the Deacons
 (as well as the Lord Jesus Christ).


 Jim

    
    Thanks Jim, 
    
    I am always curious about such stances.  I understand where such by-laws
    come from biblically (but can usually find a biblical reason to quote
    that would be in disagreement).
    
    How would your church (and/or pastor) view marrying someone who had
    been 'living with' a different partner?  Would that person be
    considered 'divorced' (based on Jesus's reference to the woman at the 
    well who had 'five' husbands)?
    
    Thanks for the info. 
    
    Mary Jo 
    

 Well, that would be tough to say, and I don't know if I can speak for
 my church's bylaws.  I suspect that the Biblical view of premarital
 sex would come into play.  But, I can't say for sure.  I will say,
 that in the case of divorced people remarrying and those who were 
 living together being married, that, assuming they could not marry
 in our church, they would be welcomed into our church with open arms.

 
 
 Jim