Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Good topic Rob,
    
    Of course we should begin by recognizing that the word "love" is one
    the most useless words in the English language.  "I love my wife; I
    love my dog; I love chocolate; etc."  See what I mean?  The Greeks had
    the most precise language ever written/spoken with different words for
    every shade of meaning.  For "love" we have:
    
    AGAPE- The godly `self for others' type of love.  The most common usage
           in the Bible.
    PHILEO-Brotherly love, in that we have something in common and our
           affection is based on that commonality.
    EROS-  Satan's counterfeit of agape.  Self for self.  I love you
           because you look good to me/make me feel good/etc.  This word
           (I believe) does not appear in the Bible.  Most of the "great"
           creative accomplishments of man stem from eros.
    
    Anything else to add to this?
    
    Dave

	One thing I know, if I set out trying to make myself love
	everyone I meet, I'll fail (comes down to trying to make it
	work in the flesh).  I cannot do it without the
	Spirit's help.
	
	I have prayed:

	"Lord, you have filled me with your love.  Help me to let that
	love flow from me to all those I come in contact with.  Holy
	Spirit, guide me into love, and show me how to love others."

	Karen

re. 1

	Dave,

	Question: What is the Greek term for love between a married man
	and woman?

	Phil.

    Phil,
    
    re. .3
    I don't know....yet.  I'm not a Greek scholar but I trust the
    scholarship and integrity of those by whom I've been taught.  I'll try
    and find out.  I think that it is probably defined by the nature of the
    relationship.  If it is a true 100/100 marriage, then each partner is
    living on behalf of the other and I would define it as agape.  If it is
    the worldly equivilent (50/50) then the partners are primarily looking
    for what the relationship can do for them and I would have to define it
    as eros.
    
    Dave
    
    Any of you scholars out there care to take a stab at it?

>    EROS-  Satan's counterfeit of agape.  Self for self.  I love you
>           because you look good to me/make me feel good/etc.  This word
>           (I believe) does not appear in the Bible.  Most of the "great"
>           creative accomplishments of man stem from eros.

This is a new twist on EROS for me.  I can certainly see where Satan has twisted
this in many ways, but I always assumed that the EROS love that binds a husband
and wife together was a God-given thing.  I'd need to see more study/scholarship
before I wrote EROS off altogether as Satan's counterfeit.

Paul

It is my belief that Eros is sexual love, which can be used for good 
or for evil.

Indeed, phileos can be used for good and evil, also.

Agape can ONLY be used for good.  :-)

re .4

	Dave,

	As I am married , ten months now, I think I am qualified to answer
	your question -). Eros love is part of the ingredient that can
	lead to a successful marriage, in fact the principle can be 
	found in 1 Corinthians 7:3. 

	Eros, love can be self-centred. However, it can be directed to ones
	marriage partner and when expressed by both they can enjoy mutual
	pleasure. There is nothing wrong with expressing this love (eros)
	as long as it is in with keeping with Bible principles and that
	one put's love of God first in ones life.

	Where Satan and his worldly system twist things is that immoral
	sexual practices are promoted as being acceptable outside the
	marriage arrangement, eg it is quite acceptable to show eros
	love to whowever you like (even ones-self). This is not in keeping 
	with Hewbrews 13:4 which is rendered in the NWT as "Let marriage be 
	honorable among all, and the marriage bed be without defilement, for 
	God will judge fornicators and aldulterers."  (see also 1 Corinthians 
	6:9)

	So the reason I asked the question was for you to reason it through 
	yourself, that eros love in itself is not wrong. What is wrong is
	to whom it is directed to and also is it in the confines of the
	marriage. 

	Phil.

    Phil,
    
    I'm going to have to let it ride for awhile until I can do some proper
    research on the words in question.  While there is much about sexuality
    and love in the Bible, I still question why the word eros does not
    appear in the NT.  God left it out.  Why?
    
    Dave

    Also, I'm still not convinced that eros is strictly defined as sexual
    love but has more to do with attitude.  No more for me until I can get
    some facts.  I don't want this to get too far off the main topic which
    I believe was `how can we learn to love as God loves' or something to
    that effect.
    
    Dave

    It is EROS; and according to Songs of Songs, it is stronger than death.
    
    Richard

    re: .11
    
    Richard,
    
    I thought EROS was Greek.  Wasn't Songs written in Hebrew?
    
    Cornfused,
    
    me

My breath can be stronger than death sometimes, too.

Read Job 19:17a.   %^9

    
    
    A question...
    
    If Agape is God's love for us....
    
    If Phillios is our love for others as brothers & sisters...
    
    What form of love is used to describe our love for God ?
    
    What form of love is used to describe our love for parents?
    
    #24

    .12,  Songs of Songs is most assuredly erotic, no matter what language
    it was written in.
    
    Richard

Note 64.14

>    What form of love is used to describe our love for parents?
 
Storge - pronounced store-gay.

Richard

>   What form of love is used to describe our love for God ?
    
    In John 21, when the Lord asks Peter "Lovest thou me...", the first two
    times He uses "agape" and Peter responds with "philleo" (sp?).  The
    third time He asks "Lovest thou me", the Lord uses "philleo".  From
    this, I gather 1) it is possible for us to have the same love (agape)
    toward God that He has toward us, 2) whether our love for Him is agape
    or philleo, He desires it to be demonstraged in the same way: "Feed My
    sheep".
    
    Mark L.

    re: .15
    
    Richard,
    
    You specifically quoted "love is stronger even than death" and said
    that this use of "love" was "EROS".  I'm just asking how you come to
    that conclusion.  That a physical expression of love (EROS) is a
    component of Songs is evident - I'm not arguing that.  I'm asking how
    you came to decide that the passage you quoted is solely dedicated to
    EROS love.
    
    It would seem to me that EROS love without God's love (AGAPE) actually
    leads *to* death and isn't stronger than death.  In that EROS love
    without AGAPE might easily be defined through adultery, incest, fornication,
    and all the other prohibitions God has placed on sexuality according to
    the Bible.
    
    Your thoughts?
    
    Steve

    re: .18
    
    (dang - I'm arguing with myself now!)
    
    I don't mean to imply that EROS is the word used in Songs...it couldn't
    be...
    
    you know what I'm saying ;-)

      Hi,
    
        How do we learn to love?
    
        I think a pretty good starting point would be Galatians 5:5,6
        for it mentions righteoussness by faith and what it works by...
    
        Galatians 5:5,6 (paraphrase)
        For we through the spirit wait for the hope of righteoussness
        by faith 
        for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision availeth 
        anything but faith which worketh by love.
    
        Christ is our righteoussness, His life was a life of righteoussness
        so it must follow that to live a righteouss life means to love as
        Christ loves - or with agape.
    
        Righteoussness comes by faith and faith works by agape.  When we
        survey the cross and our heart is melted and we say "Thank You
        Father!", faith has responded to the agape of Christ and faith 
        has allowed that same agape to flow in our hearts and take
        residence there.
    
        So clearly, loving with agape works by faith with works by agape.
    
        I think a real important thing is to behold Christ.  We need to
        continue beholding Him.  I can't see how faith can respond unless
        beholding God's love is going on.
    
        Another thing I heard that makes sense and probably is an idea
        that is one aspect of the above (is encompassed by the above) is
        the idea that the degree to which we love is dependent in part on
        the degree to which we recognize ourselves forgiven.  This makes 
        sense that it is a part of the above for as we behold Christ, we
        see the sinfulness of sin to a more marked light - we better see
        the awfulness of it.
    
        For example, if we review our life and say "Well, yeah, I sometimes
        get mad and holler at my wife and slam the door and sometimes I
        can be a little lazy and maybe I'll be impatient and holler at my
        dog..."  That person's capability for loving much is shortened out
        because he doesn't realize how much he has been forgiven.
    
        But, when it can dawn on us about how much we are forgiven and when
        we can grow in knowing that sin fully for what it is...the skies
        the limit.  If anyone has even once been angry at one single
        person, He has hung Christ on the cross for to be angry is murder
        and "if you do it to the least of My brethren, ye have done it unto 
        Me."
    
        That seed is in our hearts.
    
        So if we can realize that I (me - personally) am guilty for the sin
        of hanging my Lord on that cross, for wanting Him to suffer the
        cursed death "for cursed is any man which hangeth on a tree"....if
        we can recognize that we were forgiven for THAT sin and if we can 
        begin to be acquainted with the ACHE in the heart of God when He
        endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself...then maybe
        we can correspondingly LOVE MUCH.
    
        This is summed up in the following...
    
        Zechariah 12:10,13:1
        And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of
        Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will
        look on Me whom they have pierced; they will mourn for Him as one
        mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for
        a firstborn.
        In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and
        for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.
    
        We'll love so much that nothing will be able to stop us.
    
        Finally, I believe that we can love one another better when we see
        their sin and realize that we (according to the flesh) would
        commit that very sin.  And maybe we can allow the Spirit to move
        upon our hearts and instead of praying the prayer of the Pharisee,
        pray that prayer of the publican.  We can identify with that sinner
        in an especially intimate way by allowing the Spirit to reveal 
        how that sin would have been OUR sin but for the grace of God
        and perhaps different experiences in life.  And instead of looking
        upon a sinner thinking "Oh what a sinner!" we can look at him and
        think "That's ME!"  And maybe where there might have been some 
        distance, there is instead tremendous compassion and a desire to
        uplift the despairaging one.
                                                  
        Just a couple thoughts.  There's more...
    
                                                     God Bless,
    
                                                     Tony
    
    

    >And instead of looking upon a sinner thinking "Oh what a sinner!" 
    >we can look at him and think "That's ME!"  And maybe where there 
    >might have been some distance, there is instead tremendous compassion 
    >and a desire to uplift the despairaging one.
    
    Tony, I can't agree with you more on this one.  Amen, Brother.  While
    you and I have our disparities [sp], I see much wisdom in that
    statement.
    
    Thanks for bringing it to mind.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

	Love needs to be cultivated like a garden, "Love is long-suffering
	and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed
	up, does not behave indecently, does not look for it's own interests, 
	does not become prevoked. It does not keep account of the injury. It 
	does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 
	It bears all things, believes all things, hope all things, endures all 
	things. Love never fails." 1 Corinthians 13:4-8a NWT. Hence, if someone 
	offends and in reply one says "You are always doing that!" then one is 
	not cultivating love. Also one might rejoice in ungodly things such as 
	immoral videos, in this way one is not cultivating love of God and his 
	will. There are many facets of how one shows love of God and neighbour.

	However, we are all imperfect humans and the tendency is not to
	show love as defined in the Bible. Today, we live in a time
	where there is an ever increase in lawlessness which in turn
	means that there is an ever increasing amount of people not showing 
	love (agape), this is brought out in Matthew 24:12 NWT "and because 
	of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will 
	cool off." Their love is directed elsewhere, rather than cultivating 
	Agape or Phileo love, as brought out in 2 Tim 3:1-5 NWT they are 
	"...Lovers of themselves, lovers of money,....having no natural 
	affection....without self control...without love of goodness,..
	puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 
	having a form of godly devotion, but proving false to its power; and 
	from these turn away."

	One cannot fully cultivate love as defined in the Bible without
	help from Jehovah God, one needs to approach Him through prayer
	and ask for help and this should be done through the name of His
	Son Jesus Christ (Luke 11:13, Galations 5:22, John 16:23).

	Phil.  

re.22

Phil,

>	One cannot fully cultivate love as defined in the Bible without
	help from Jehovah God,

	I would go further than this. One cannot fully cultivate love as defined
in the Bible apart from God Himself. That is, true love (agape) *is* God 
Himself. You cannot give to others something you do not possess yourself. So
the love that the christian gives to others in nothing less than God Himself
Who is love. We do not need to ask Jehovah to help us love, we only need to
allow Jehovah to flow through us to others. When they receive God, they will 
have received love. 

	Any love less than this is merely a cheap human imitation.

	Did you mean the same thing?

Regards,
ace

One very important aspect about the biblical concept of love is that it is not
based on emotions.  If it were, Jesus could never have commanded us to love our
enemies.  We certainly don't feel any "emotion" (warm, tender emotion, not 
anger :-) for our enemies.  But, we are still commanded to love them.

The problem that we have is that we can begin to believe that love is something
that just happens.  It's an emotion, over which we have no control.  We either
love someone, or we don't, period.  *IF* love were an emotion, that would be
true, but since it's not, then we can love everyone.  I know that some people
are saying, "now wait a minute!  You really can't expect me to love EVERYone!"
You're right, I don't expect you to...God does :-)  The Bible tells us:

	1)  We are to love our neighbor as ourself
	2)  We are to love our wives (husbands) like Christ loves the church
	3)  We are to love the "brethren" as Christ loves them
	4)  We are to love our enemies

Are there any categories of people (as related to myself) that I have forgotten
here?  The only category that I can think of is our family, but certainly, if
not mentioned specifically, they would fall under the category of neighbor or
enemy, depending on you relationships with them :-).

No, basically, God commands us to love everybody.  What we have to do is to
realize that God is not commanding us to *feel* love for everyone.  We can't
expect to have a philharmonic orchestra in the background playing romantic
music, and a warm tenderness suddenly overcome us, as our most hated enemy
walks into the room.  That's not what God is commanding.  He is commanding us
to give to that person.  When we see them hungry or thirsty, we give them
to eat or drink.  The feelings, if there ever will be any, will come as a
result of our obedience to God.

In other words, it's backwards for us to expect the feelings to come first,
and then the actions to follow.  We must learn to live a life of obedience to
the Word of God, and by so doing, we will learn to love.

     1 John 5:3 (KJV) For this is the love of God, that we keep his command-
     ments; and his commandments are not grievous.

Love is obedience to His word long before it becomes (if it ever becomes) a
feeling.

This also has consequences for a marriage.  How often have you heard someone
say, "We just don't love each other any more.  There's no hope for the marriage
so we are getting a divorce."?  Have you heard this?  This is a totally wrong
concept of love.  It's saying, in essence, since "I" no longer *feel* love (ie
the feelings of warmth and tenderness towards my spouse have disappeared) "I"
conclude that our love has "died".  The person saying this further makes the
mistake that it was the feeling, and not a covenant to be the other person's
companion for life, that was the basis of their relationship.

Whereas the feelings were most likely there, the idea that we marry simply be-
cause of the feelings, and further, that we stay together based on them, is
not biblical.  At the time the Bible was written, there was probably very 
little (and in some cultures today, there still is little) of the "love at 
first sight", or any other kind of feeling before marriage.  Most marriages
(and someone more familiar with the cultural aspects can correct me, if I'm
wrong) were arranged.

Another thing that has to be remembered is that the wife is never commanded to
love her husband.  The husband is the one commanded by God to love, and to
care for the love in the family.  Sorry, no macho men here.  A husband must 
learn to be tender and caring, and above all sacrificially giving (ie loving),
to his wife.  He is commanded to do it.  It's not a matter of him having the
feelings.  He must do it in obedience to God, who will certainly give him the
desire and the ability to obey Him.  The husband needs to be praying for the
grace to grow in his ability to love his wife, and NOT putting the emphasis on
a feeling.  The feeling will come as a result of the obedience.

Isn't that hypocritical? you ask.  Absolutely not.  It is not hypocritical to
act loving when you don't feel like it.  It would be hypocritical to say that
you feel it, if you don't; but it's not hypocritical to do it.  It's like en-
joying yourself at a party.  Did you wait to start enjoying yourself before you
went to the party?  Or did you start enjoying yourself as a result of what you
were doing at the party?  Chances are the latter is more correct.

It's the same with love.  Whether it's towards your wife (husbands) or towards
your neighbor, or even towards your enemies.  The feelings of warmth and 
tenderness will follow your obedience.  We can't use the cop-out, "I don't 
feel any love for that person".  It is not "grievous" to keep His commandments,
and that is how love is defined (among other things, like 1 Cor. 13).  If we
will obey, and do as God commands us to do; ie if we look to the Bible to 
see how we are to "love" that person, and begin to obey concretely (the Bible
is very practicle, particularly 1 Corinthians 13), we will love as God desires
us to love.

Rob

re .23

	Ace,

	Just to clarify a little by what I mean't:

	Yes God is love, in fact He is the personification of love.

	However all of mankind has the ability to show love. The first
	man Adam was created in God's image, with that man has been endowed 
	with this fine quality that is the capacity to show love eventhough 
	it is to a larger degree less than Jehovah God. As such all today
	have the possiblity/obligation of fulfilling the primary commandment 
	to love God, Matthew 22:37 NWT reads "He said to him:"You must love 
	Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole whole soul 
	and with your whole mind." (compare also Ecl 12:13) , btw our love 
	of God is not just the heart condition but also means taking in 
	knowledge "with your whole mind".
	
	Agape love , is a love guided by principle and is expressed without
	the need of showing affection. But Agape love can be misdirected, in 
	that it can be shown in regard with a bad principle as brought by Jesus
 	in Matthew 5:46-47 NWT "For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do
 	YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the samething? And if 
	You greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are you doing? 
	Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing?", the bad 
	principle being "I'll do good to you, if you do good to me in return". 
	Christian love is self-sacrifising, just as Jesus as shown us (also see 
	1 Cor 13).

	;We do not need to ask Jehovah to help us love
	
	I disagree, the exhortation from the Apostle Paul is "Therefore,
	become imitators of God, as beloved children, and go walking in 
	love, just as the Christ also loved YOU as an offering and a 
	sacrifice sweet-smelling odor." Ephesians 5:1,2 NWT Here we are
	told to imitate God and thereby "go walking in love", we cannot
	do this in our own strength. 1 John 3:18;22 NWT "Let us love, 
	neither in word nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth."
	"and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we are observing
	his commandments and doing the things pleasing in his eyes."

	;When they receive God, they will have received love.

	You can be shown love, in fact the whole world has been shown this
	expression of love from Jehovah God (John 3:16), however many 
	reject this undeserved kindness. But the commandment for Christians is
 	to express love of God and neighbour. Ofcourse, Jehovah is the source 
	of such love and so all credit should be attributed to him (Rev 4:11).
	Accepting God as mentioned by Rob in .24, means keeping his commandments
	(1 John 5:3) which is an expression of the love we have for Him. Hence
	love of God calls for action on our part and we all have the capacity
	to show it. All can express love but the important thing is the 
	direction in which it is pointed, eg love of God,self and/or false gods?.

	Phil.

� One very important aspect about the biblical concept of love is that it is
� not based on emotions.  
Liked it, Rob....  1 Corinthians 13:4-7 also makes it a clear decision,
which wells up from a desire not only for the love object to *receive* the
best, but to *be* the best that it can be.  This doesn't imply 'blind
love', ignoring faults, but loving them as Christ loves us, seeing what He
is making us into, rather than paying attention to the faults He not yet
touched. 

Love looks for all the plus points to be put to their account, and skips 
with delight at each one.  The negatives don't count here - 'keeps no 
record of wrongs...'.  The only 'getting even' where there is true love, is 
by outdoing each other in love....  I quoted Romans 13:8 recently, but it 
bears repeating...;-)
 "Let no debt remain outstanding except the continuing debt to love one 
  another...."

I like 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 so much, I'm going to put it in....

 "Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is 
  not proud.  It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily 
  angered, it keeps not record of wrongs.  Love does not delight in evil,
  but rejoices with the truth.  It always protects, always trusts, always 
  hopes, always perseveres."

I have to read each of those characteristics carefully, and remember that 
if my attitude to anyone doesn;t fit all of these, I'm out of fellowship 
with them.  Whether that's with a fellow Christian (which shouldn't 
happen), or with someone who nesds the love of God even more....  Am I 
leaving it to someone else, not only to show that love, but to cancel out 
my lack of love?

1 John 2:9-10, 4:20 remind us (indirectly) that we learn to love with His 
love, as we love Him shown through our brothers and sisters in the LORD.  
If we can't love what we glimpse of Him there, how can we expect to love 
the 'Him' we haven't seen?  No good making excuses like "We're / They're 
not perfected yet", against Romans 5:8 
 "God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still 
  sinners, Christ died for us."
It's the test of Him reigning in us...  His love in action - in our bodies!

You don't have to 'see' them lovely to love them.  Just do it! 
 Loving them makes the unlovely lovely...  At least, that's the way it 
 worked for Him!

OH! So TREMENDOUS that the rest of 1 Corinthians 13 emphasises that while 
everything else passes away - the understandings and limiitations of this 
world - LOVE NEVER FAILS.  It continues into the presence of LOVE Himself.  
That is His quality which makes heaven to be heavenly ;-)

And as we learn to reflect Him down here, so we learn to reflect His love, 
growing to be like Him, 'til we see His face......

'scuse me while I dance down the corridor....  uh, well .... no, I love
these guys here too much to frighten them quite like that (phew!)....
- unless He says to....! ;-) 

 I've been bursting to put this in awhile, but only just got time...


				love you all - I can't help it ;-)
								Andrew

	Yowza Andrew, you've got *me* dancing down the aisles now!!!

	Karen

	PS - I don't think anyone here would be surprised to see it...

	- but it's the building would suffer most here .... ;-)

    I just wanted to add for those of you who were discussing the various
    terms: Storge, Phileos, Eros and Agape that C.S. Lewis wrote about
    these in a book, The Four Loves. The topics are Affection, Friendship,
    Eros, and Charity, and an additional chapter at the beginning on
    Likings and Loves for the Sub-Human. It's quite a study - just for
    complimentary reading material.
    
    Rebecca

    It's been several weeks that someone has added to this particular file.
    I have read this section yesturday and reread it again today. Infact,
    today i shared a printout of this file with my girlfriend when we walked
    around in the park on her lunch break. I just recently talked with her,
    it's like 9:50pm, and she has read some of her printout. I share all of
    that for I'd like to say that these various topics can be powerfull
    learning tools. Not just only in dealing with others, but our own walk
    with God.  With this topic, learning to love, has been contributing to
    our relationship. Has made us think/look at things that we haven't seen
    or know but haven't really applied them.  Even in my own walk with the
    Lord, this has taught me several things as well as reminded of several
    things (as well as getting positive confirmations). And I agree to that
    one statement, as I say it, You can not give a dollar if you don't have
    one. And more importantly as scripture says it (paraphrased), Let the
    Light come in so that all men can see and warm up to it's glowing. 
    So I'd like to say thankyou to all those who has been writing and
    sharing the sword, thier experiances, questions. For I and girlfriend +
    I have been learning and been challenged by you all. 
    	 Christian Notes file = Suplimental learning tool of the Word.	
                                              ~~Richard~~
    				    ~

 Praise God, Richard!






 Jim

           I just looked here to see how Rob Marshall was doing, and I
           "stumbled" onto this note (actually, it was a
           "God-Incidence").  The words are just what I needed after a
           trying past week or so.  Thank you Rob and all the replyers!
           And have a Blessed New Year, too!
           
           Steve