Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Tonight I received a telephone call from a close friend, whose mother
    had written her a 6 page letter citing every wrong this child [at the
    time] had ever committed up through a recent conflict, which had
    provoked the letter.  She is no longer a child, but an adult woman
    married with 3 children.
    
    This Mom's actions has caused extreme hurt, anger, resentment and sense
    of abandonment.  She feels to have childhood growing pains thrown up in
    her face as an adult [and they were normal ones], is more then she can
    bear.  
    
    Several things came to mind as I tried to console this woman, most of
    which are the questions in .0.  God gave me some insights and I'm
    hoping to get some from you.
    
    Nancy
    

    Anger... 
    
    The anger that wells inside when someone has falsely accused or wronged
    you... it's consuming sometimes so intense that even one word from the
    individual who has wronged you can ignite a fire.
    
    Example:  When my I was married, over time the emotional, physical and
    verbal abuse that was directed my way became a pressure cooker for me.
    
    I was *so* angry at the abuse that this man had inflicted upon me [of
    course I was a great victim] that it would only take one word out of
    his mouth and I could explode [at times it felt like I would implode].
    
    I had no love left in my heart for him, only wrath.  God had to do a
    great work in me for that to change and it did... but it was through
    forgiveness and understanding what real forgiveness is, that allowed 
    me to change.  Also understanding anger as an offense versus as a
    defense.
    
    Nancy

This is a letter I wrote to someone (not in this conference) as a result
of a lesson I taught on forgiveness some time ago.  This person had some
problems and asked me to read a chapter of a book.  This is my response 
to this person:

Dear <friend's_name_deleted>

I read the chapter in the book, Unfinished Business, by Charles Sell,
called "Considering Forgiveness. For the most part, the author deals
with the subject well. There a just a few places where the author falls
into the Americanization of the concept of forgiveness, but mostly his
views are accurate.

I lifted several quotations from the sections and I took particular
notice of the text that you underscored.

o  "Quick forgiveness skips the anger and often ignores the sin."

o  "Giving in is not forgiving."

o  "Denying the problem perpetuates it."

o  "Face the truth" a precondition to forgiveness.

o  "The congregation stands willing to forgive when the person acknowl-
   edges his guilt."

o  "...give our emotions time to catch up with our actions."

o  "Even though I have forgiven my parents, being with them is still
   awkward and difficult."

The author outlines several steps before forgiveness takes place.

o  Acknowledge the sin.

o  Recognize the indignation.

o  Be willing to forgive.

o  Confront the offender.

o  The offender repents.

   -  Take along Witnesses if the offender is unrepentant.

   -  Take it to the church if still unrepentant.

   -  Dismiss the person from the church.

o  Forgive the offender.

The before process that a person must recognize that they have been
wronged and not sweep it under the rug. Of course, forgiveness can-
not occur if someone is unaware (consciously or otherwise) of some-
thing to forgive. I take "recognizing the indignation" to mean that
once the wrong (or sin) is recognized for what it is, (that is the truth
is in its full ugly light), we can and should be repulsed by it.

Once the truth is faced, we must be willing to forgive. This is an act
of the will that often requires the divine help of God to forgive, as
is testified by the Corrie Ten Boom story. It does not remove the emo-
tion involved, as is indicated by the story of the woman on page 143
under the subtitle Must We Feel Forgiveness.

I think herein lies the greatest confusion about the concept of for-
giveness. The recovery from the hurt of sin is a process that takes
time, just as a physical cut takes time to heal and leaves a scar. The
woman on page 143 still bore the hurt and scars from her situation,
but she also showed that she had forgiven the offender.

Forgiveness is not an emotion, but we all know that emotion is attached
to it. The book points out that even if we forgive an unrepentant of-
fender, the offender and the offense are not swept under the rug, or
under the blood until the offender becomes repentant.

And even so, sin has consequences and ramifications that last for years.
An unwed mother is a visible reminder of the sin (even after the sin
is confessed and forgiven). Most people and their sin remain invis-
ible to others, yet their sin, or others' sins against them, can last
a lifetime.

I do not know what your childhood was like, and I do not intend to say
"just let go of it" because the emotional trauma must work through the
desert of healing. For Christians, we can rely on God to assist us through
this process, not necessarily to deliver us from it.

I would hope that when the author says, "not forgiving may be a way
of getting rid of bitterness toward someone who has sinned against you"
we all realize that he is talking about not forgiving the unrepentant
sinner and offender. In the chapter, he points out that the willing-
ness to forgive is an integral part of the process of getting a grip
on those emotions.

Corrie Ten Boom asked God for forgiveness because she could not for-
give [of her own volition - her emotions would not permit it]. But God
enabled her to forgive. I imagine that putting that hand out to that
scoundrel was the toughest thing she ever did of her own free will.
It wasn't emotional, or it wouldn't have happened. By doing so, she
was confronted by the hurt and in doing so, God enabled her to con-
tinue the process of healing in her.

I am concerned that in the name of permitting "ourselves some anger,
some righteous indignation," we open ourselves to unjust anger and un-
righteous indignation. It is like the current view of American soci-
ety towards guilt. American society says, inappropriate guilt is bad
(which it is) so all guilt is bad (which it isn't). All I'm saying here
is that while anger and righteous indignation is appropriate and needed
in some cases, we are careful to assess the cases in which it is ap-
propriate.

That comes down to facing the truth about the sin against us. Is there
a reason to forgive? It seems the author was attempting to draw a dis-
tinction between sin against someone and the resentments that we our-
selves have harbored against our parents for things we consider un-
fair as a child.

I wrote the following for a class I taught last August (1990) on par-
enting at the beginning of Big People, Little People:

                       FORGIVING OUR PARENTS

   My father spoke to me one day and said that his parents were not
   perfect, and there were things he remembers about his parents that
   hurt him. "But," he said, "there comes a time in a man's life when
   he has to forgive his parents for the perceived wrongs. And I know
   I haven't been the perfect father. And you'll have to deal with
   it and hopefully forgive me for it, as your children will deal
   with your imperfections and hopefully forgive you."

   My father's words to me were liberating because, even though I
   honor my parents, there were incidences that I can remember with
   feelings of hurt associated with them-and the truth that he spoke
   enabled me to forgive those incidences. Before, I didn't know how
   to deal with them; I simply repressed them.

   Forgiveness is liberating because it sweeps the dirt out the door
   and enables us to begin the task of improving and learning from
   the experiences we grew up with.

   I realize that some of us grew up in less fortunate, perhaps abu-
   sive, familial surroundings. Having an abusive parent can emo-
   tionally cripple someone; their vision of God is distorted, among
   other things.

   Forgiveness does not erase the hurt one feels, but it releases
   it for God to deal with. We hold on to hurts (call it carrying
   a grudge) as if it was personal property. Forgiveness is an act
   of the will and not an act of emotion.

   By forgiving our parents for their mistakes, we begin parenting
   with a clean slate and understanding of our frailties.

I did not edit this text from my August lesson. I used the word for-
giveness in this text to apply to "unfair treatment" (not getting as
much attention as another brother, or not getting enough attention;
whatever the reason). I would say that my father did not sin (as we
define sin), nor did his father, nor do I sin against my children. But
I do and will make mistakes.

For these errors, when I recognize them, or have them pointed out to
me, I say, "I'm sorry." We often respond, "That's okay." What we mean
is, "It still hurts, but I accept your apology and our relationship
can begin to heal from this hurt." We often translate this as "I for-
give," and in many respect, even though blatant "sin" is not involves,
it is appropriate because the idea is conveyed.

So after reading the chapter and considering it, I still say that for-
giveness is an act of the will, at least the willingness to forgive
is an act of the will. To get to that point, we must face up to what
needs to be forgiven, and this means working through the hurt only in-
sofar as we recognize it for what it is--not to be healed from it be-
fore we can forgive. After the point of forgiveness, we still must deal
with the hurt and the healing.

<rest of letter deleted>
    

    Forgive me for 177 lines.    ;-)

    Re: Note 55.3 by TOKNOW::METCALFE
    
>For these errors, when I recognize them, or have them pointed out to
>me, I say, "I'm sorry." We often respond, "That's okay." What we mean
>is, "It still hurts, but I accept your apology and our relationship
>can begin to heal from this hurt." We often translate this as "I for-
>give," and in many respect, even though blatant "sin" is not involves,
>it is appropriate because the idea is conveyed.
    
    Chord struct within me...  I can't cope with the sequence "I'm
    sorry/That's okay", and I've adjusted myself towards "I'm sorry/I
    forgive you.".  In my dialect, "That's okay" is too short and
    meaningless, and almost says that there was nothing to forgive; which
    is *real* bad if I'm the one saying I'm sorry.
    
    James

>   Have you ever had trouble forgiving someone who has wronged you or
>   accused you falsely?
>
>   What is forgiveness?  Can you forget?
    
	One thing I have learned is that the easiest people to forgive
	are children. Okay, they wind you up and you loose the rag
	easily but it is very rare to hold a longterm grudge against
	a child.
	 WHY? 
	Simply because we can see them for what they are and do not judge
	them as strictly as we judge adults. When a child commits 
	something which we feel the child should not do it is easier to
	overlook the error because even though we don't understand why
	they do the things they do we have a more unconditional love
	towards them and are more likely to rise above the level of
	judgement/bitterness/grudging/... and all the soul destroying
	things which come with unforgiving.
	My point is that we can see kids and love them for what they are
	but to have that kind of unconditional love for adults who we
	tend to have the atitude of "who do they think they are?"/"why
	oh why did they do that?"/... and so on attitude.

	I know a Christian friend whose biggest stumbling block is
	forgiving poeple. From talking to this person I have come
	to the conclusion that it is simply due to this person's high
	expectations (strong judgement, lack of love) of people.

	Forgiveness, I believe can only come when we can love people
	and see them for who they really are, the way Jesus looked
	down from the cross and said "Father forgive them for they
	know not what they do". The only way to truly and utterly
	forgive people is to be continually filled with that type
	of love.

>   What is unforgiveness and how does anger play a role?

	A good book to read is "A forgiving God in an unforgiving world".
	Can't remember the author/publisher but an excellent book on
	the topic of forgiveness. The author talks about the two options
	the world preaches on anger :

	option 1 : let it out, ball it out, release !!!!!!
	option 2 : take the easy-going attitude and take it in your
	           stride as a type of character building obstacle.

	The author then suggests option 3 which involves steps which
	the Christian should take (can't remember them all):

	* identify yourself as the problem
	* take all your anger before God (but not towards God).
	* ask yourself how Jesus would react to the situation.
	* think out a plan on how you will constructively takle the
	  next time you are faced with this source of anger.
	* .... can't remember the rest.

>   What does God's word say about forgiving?
    
    	"Forgive our debts,
	 As we forgive our debtors".


	Exit stage left,
	Erich
    

Forgiveness is one of the more difficult things for a Christion to *give*.

It is much easier to say, "I'm sorry.  Will you forgive me?"
In practice, because of feelings or pride, or both, it is much
more difficult to say, "I forgive you the hurt you caused me."

Too often we cannot get rid of the hurt with the words "I forgive
you."  

When God removes our guilt of sin from us (the hurt against Him!),
he casts them into the sea of forgetfulness and does not hold 
them to our account.  They're gone!  I'm thankful that God is perfect.

We remember the hurt caused.  I like what the book that I read said
about a cut having to take time to scab over and many times it still
leaves a scar, even if it no longer hurts.  Scar tissue is tough and
has very little feeling, you know.  Some of us have become scar tissue
from head to foot.  Alas!

How do we forget?  I don't know if it is humanly possible.  But this I
know: that if you forgive with an act of the will, then you can remind
yourself that you have absolved the one who sinned against you of any
guilt for that wrong.  Who is it that brings the hurt up again and 
for what purpose?  Think.

"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

When Jesus taught us to pray this, he was saying we should ask God to 
forgive us in the same way that we forgive those who wrong us.  Whoa!
I'd rather have God be more merciful to me than I am to others!  Yet,
there it is.  Instead, we should be looking for God's compassion towards
forgiveness and reconcilliation, and absolution of guilt.  The other
person may not *want* your forgiveness, may not ask for it, and may continue
to hurt you.  There are things to do in such cases laid out n Scripture,
some of which were listed in 55.3.

Forgiveness given to *us* is well spoken of in song:

My sin... O the bliss of this glorious thought! ...
My sin, not in part, but the whole is nailed to the Cross 
And I bear it no more!
Praise the Lord, it is well with my soul!

I know it is difficult sometimes to take the teaching of our Lord
Who has forgiven us freely the hurt we've caused Him (unto death)
and turn around to forgive another, or sometimes even forgive
ourselves (yet another topic), yet...  allow the Lord to speak to 
your heart.

Mark

.6        When a child commits 
.6	something which we feel the child should not do it is easier to
.6	overlook the error because even though we don't understand why
.6	they do the things they do we have a more unconditional love
.6	towards them 

Hi Erich.  I know this may be a tangent (about dealing with children)
but "overlooking an error" is not forgiving a wrong committed.
I believe that adults don't know how to forgive well because the
children haven't been taught forgiveness well.

James Cameron's issue with the "that's Okay" mentality is legitimate
and I underscore it here.  My E-Mail personal name is "Adults are
the biggest children" which in this case can mean that many adults
*should* know better but they don't and aren't much more mature than
some children.  With this in mind, it may help us to have that same
kind of unconditional love you are referring as having for children
also for adults.

And this is a good lead in for my next note, pulled out of my archives...

Mark

Being Aware and Sensitive to the Body of Christ
Sunday Evening, January 14, 1990
Mark Metcalfe

If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any
comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any ten-
derness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like-minded,
having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. Do nothing out
of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others
better than yourselves. Each of you should look not only to your in-
terests, but also to the interests of others. - Philippians 2:1-4

I am here to speak to you about committing yourselves to being aware
and sensitive to the body of Christ and the goings on in our church.

Our church is not perfect because I am a part of our church and I'm
not perfect. (And some of you would be the first to admit it.)

My Father always told his congregation, "If you can find the perfect
Christian organization, don't join it because it won't be perfect any-
more."

Any group of people larger than one means that frictions may develop
over "the way things should be done" and feelings are at risk of be-
ing hurt. As long as there are people in churches, there will be some
who get their toes stepped on.

While it is important for us to be aware of the hurt in others, let
me also point out where we can be aware about the hurt in ourselves.

Can you think of a time when someone in the church has hurt your feel-
ings or gotten you mad about something? (If you can't, I suggest that
you are not as involved in the church as perhaps you should be.)

Of those times that someone caused you to feel bad, can you think of
any event where the intention was to hurt you?

Let me encourage you to recognize that in most cases, people are un-
aware that they've hurt your feelings; there was no intent to do so.
Often when people are aware that they hurt your feelings, they fall
all over themselves apologizing and vowing that it was never their in-
tent.

When we become aware of peoples' intent, we don't become impervious
to the pain, but it helps to lessen the hurt that someone may cause
us unintentionally.

One of the reasons people get hurt in the church is because they mis-
interpreted something something said or did. This is often because we
haven't gotten to know people well enough to know that they're not "out
to get us."

The more you get to know people the more you begin to realize that they're
simply tuned to a different frequency; there's nothing malicious in-
volved. When we realize that other people have other environments and
pressures that are brought to bear on themselves, just as we do, we
can learn to accept these different frequencies and value them for their
unique value. A Symphony orchestra would be pretty boring if all they
had were kettle drums.

The more people you come to know in our church, the more you begin to
appreciate the diversity and complexion of our church. The more in-
volved you become with people, the more you love them in spite of, or
indeed because of their unique contribution to the Body of Christ.

	Nancy,

	I've been wanting to start a topic on this for some time, thanks
	for doing so!

	I've got lots to say, but not much time, so I'll have to come
	back later.

	Lots of good stuff started here...

	Karen 

Hi,

Like Karen, I too have been thinking about starting a note to talk about the
whole issue of dealing with sin, ie ala Mt. 5/18 along with forgiveness.  I 
have extracted the note (.1-.9) and will try to get back after the weekend.

Rob (who's been dealing with this issue a lot, lately)

>.6        When a child commits 
>.6	something which we feel the child should not do it is easier to
>.6	overlook the error because even though we don't understand why
>.6	they do the things they do we have a more unconditional love
>.6	towards them 
>
>Hi Erich.  I know this may be a tangent (about dealing with children)
>but "overlooking an error" is not forgiving a wrong committed.
>I believe that adults don't know how to forgive well because the
>children haven't been taught forgiveness well.

	Example, (and I deliberabtly use the child to bring home my point).
	A young child is sitting beside you. He knows fullwell that boiling
	water can hurt. The kid does something bad and you discipline him
	until he is crying. In reaction to his anger, he throws the pot
	of boiling water in your direction and scars your face for life.

	Now having a scar on your face cannot be "overlooked" cause
	every morning you look in the mirror and it hurts. Now
	because you know your kid is young (even though he has a temper)
	it is so much easier to forgive him than had it been an adult.


	Mark,
	A couple of questions :

	What is the difference between "overlooking an error" and
	"instant forgiveness" ?

	Does a hurt have to reach a certain level or amount of time 
	before it can be removed by the "forgiveness" process ?

	I had an experience years ago when someone did something that
	hurt me real bad. Now, before the incident happened I remember 
	saying to my brother "If so-and-so does such-and-such I will
	litterly (sp?) punch him in the face". About a year or so later
	so-and-so actually did such-and-such. I didn't punch him, I
	didn't even talk to him, somehow I didn't feel any grudge
	towards him. God gave me an inward peace that somehow washed
	away the feelings that I would have otherwise felt without
	him. 

	Another question : did God help me to "forgive" or did he
	help me to "overlook" this incident ?

	Erich
    

I have to go back to first base on this one.

I think it is only possible to *truly* forgive in the Christian context, 
because it's only there that we can see that any legitimate grievance we 
may have against another pales into insignificance against what He has born 
from me.

Just rarely I have felt something rise inside me which I've recognised as 
an anger against some prejudice / attack, and had to deal with that in 
myself, rather than whatever situation gave rise to it.

I have no right to nurse any grievance against another person.  But then, 
I've not been really ever tried in the fire of this one.  Though I have had 
to bring animosity against another before the LORD, to be cured.  The 
parable of Matthew 18:21-35 is relevant...

I believe that true 'forgiveness' is where the offense has no more power to
hurt the relationship.  In fact, an offense truly forgiven can weld the
former antagonists in love, if they can really submit it to the love of
Jesus.  To reach that stage, I believe that there has certainly to be a
change of heart / healing in the one who brought the offense (if it was
deliberate / careless / repetitive). 

'Forgetting' is to do with what is built into our memory, and cannot 
nece=ssarily be erased as easily as the heart may learn to forgive.  But 
true forgiveness will probably behave 'as if' the deed is forgotten.

So far, I've assumed repentance.  The tougher one is to forgive someone who 
deliberately offends, and is still in the state of unrepentance - possibly 
even of repeating the offense.  Even there, for the Christian, forgiveness 
is still needed, even if you still have to go around on the defensive 
against what may happen...

There's so much in the gospels about *our* forgiveness being dependent on 
our forgiving others...From the LORD's prayer (Matthew 6:12), and 
following:
Matthew 6:14
 "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father 
  will also forgive you.  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your 
  father will not forgive your sins."
That's *heavy*.  It says we HAVE to forgive.  No condition of repentance 
of the other party, etc.

Mark 11:25
 "when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, 
  so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Colossians 3:13
 "Forgive as the LORD forgave you"
 - "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us..."

I guess forgiveness is a crucial trait of the Holy Spirit which we have to 
reflect in our character received from Him.  Evidence of Him working in 
us....

Romans 12:14
 "Bless those who persecute you; bless, and do not curse."

How long before we have to stand under persecution?  How will we react...?

Remember Corrie ten Boom and Bessie (?), in the concentration camp; When 
they saw a woman being beaten, Corrie's pity was for the physical victim,
while Bessie grieved for the guard who had gone so far from God. 

Stephen, in Acts 7:60 got close with "LORD, do not hold this sin against 
them" as he died, following our LORD's examole in Luke 23:34.  Such a 
contrast with the unrepentance of Matthew 27:25....

James 2:13, 5:16....

"Can I forgive?"
	- I've never been in the position of receiving real offense.  But if I 
	  were, I hope I'd have grace according to my great need......

I dare not come before the holy God with anger iun my heart against one who
is also a member of the fallen human race... 

						love
							Andrew

>	What is the difference between "overlooking an error" and
>	"instant forgiveness" ?

It make be simple conflict of definition, but in regards to "pardon"
for a wrong committed, the law can "overlook" the consequences of
an offender, unless and until it happens again, at which time, the
"overlooked" offense is added to the new offense.

Forgiveness is a full pardon - record wiped clean - can't go back 
and use it against them.  (Ah, but we're prone to do that, or at
least tempted, anyway, correct?)

>	Does a hurt have to reach a certain level or amount of time 
>	before it can be removed by the "forgiveness" process ?

The answer to this depends on how one views forgiveness as the first
explanation of "overlooking" versus "forgiving" (my definitions).

>       "If so-and-so does such-and-such I will
>	litterly (sp?) punch him in the face". About a year or so later
>	so-and-so actually did such-and-such. I didn't punch him,
>	Another question : did God help me to "forgive" or did he
>	help me to "overlook" this incident ?

I would hope you forgave him, but to this point I would say that God
had *matured* you not to react as your prior (or inward) self would
have liked to react (by punching his face).  {P.S.  I punched my
brother Russell in the face a few times; it only enraged him;
we were teens at the time.  Lesson: if you're going to do it,
take him out; or don't do it.  At 33 years old, I opt not to do it.}

You see, you can have overlooked this incident without forgiveness in
your heart.  Forgiveness is an act of the will that is followed
(sometimes a long time) later by feeling.

Mark

Luke 7:47 (Jesus speaking)
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; 
for she loved much; but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth 
little.

This passage refers to the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her tears
and wiped his feet with her hair.  But it also speaks about Simon, a 
Pharisee, into whose house Jesus was invited for dinner ("sat down to
meat").

( Not all the Pharisees were opposed to Jesus, by the way.  )

In another place, two men owed debts; one man an unbelievable sum;
the other a pittance.  Having the great debt forgiven must have 
been a enormous relief to the first man.  Forgiving the pittance
may not have caused so much gratitude to the one who owed had he
been given the chance to have his debt forgiven.  Of course, in 
*that* story the man who owed the pittance, owed it to the man who 
was forgiven his great debt.  When the king found out that his 
mercy had not been extended to another not even so desparate, 
the first man was thrown into prison.

Ooops, now I have two ideas about forgiveness here.  Back to the first:
it seems to me that Jesus is saying that one who has been forgiven
of fewer sins has less of a capacity to appreciate the love of God
towards him.  I wonder about this sometimes.  Certainly, the 
pardon is equal in its condition of cleansing from sin, yet because
of the debts owed, some of us have greater reason to wipe the sweat 
over where we might have been had our debt not been paid in full for
us.

Mark

    I think the words "Will you forgive me?" are extremely important. If I
    say "I'm sorry" I can walk away feeling that I've done my piece, and
    even that whatever I did really wasn't that bad, but the other person 
    can still be left feeling pretty much the same. If I directly ask for 
    their forgiveness, they can't just throw out "That's OK" when perhaps 
    it's really not; they have to stop and think about whether or not they 
    really do forgive, they have to say "yes" or "no." At least that's the 
    way I've found it to work. If I've hurt someone, I make a point of 
    saying the words, "Will you forgive me?", even if it seems awkward. 
    Those are very difficult words to say - much more difficult than 
    "I'm sorry." I think there's power in the offender asking the question 
    and power in the offended receiving the question and truly considering 
    the answer.  Jesus always used the words forgive or forgiveness, not 
    apologize or sorry - I think there's a danger in the code saying 
    sorry = will you forgive me.  It tends to let everyone off the hook.
    
    There's a wonderful book titled "Irregular People" - I believe by Joyce
    Landorf(?) - about coping with and forgiving those people in your life
    who you can't escape - those closest to you, father, mother, sibling,
    spouse - and who can't seem to love or accept you and whose rejection
    continually wounds you. Should be available in Christian bookstores. 
    Highly recommended.
    
    I also think that forgetting is essential (and I'm a dreadful failure
    on that one) - it is difficult to forgive if you're continually or even
    occasionally dredging up hurtful memories or rehashing what's happened,
    whether out loud or secretly in your heart.  I think forgetting
    requires discipline and God's grace and mercy; it's not something I've
    even come close to, so my understanding is limited, but I think it 
    involves acceptance of the limitations of being human.  It is a
    struggle for me; will share learnings along the way.  
    
    In Christ,
    
    Rebecca
    

    Small divergence,
    
    I was reading Rebecca's note (-.1) on the alternative ways to ask for
    forgiveness, and thought to myself, What Would Jesus Do In Such A
    Situation... and then I realised that I couldn't ask that, because
    Jesus did not sin.
    
    ;-)

Example, (and I deliberabtly use the child to bring home my point).
A young child is sitting beside you. He knows fullwell that boiling
water can hurt. The kid does something bad and you discipline him
until he is crying. In reaction to his anger, he throws the pot
of boiling water in your direction and scars your face for life.

Now having a scar on your face cannot be "overlooked" cause
every morning you look in the mirror and it hurts. Now
because you know your kid is young (even though he has a temper)
it is so much easier to forgive him than had it been an adult.

       My ex used to say to me all the time, "Nancy, when it comes to the 
       kids you have unending patience, but when it comes to me, you have 
       none."
       
       I *used* to feel exactly the same way as what you have written.  
       But I don't anymore... you know why?  Because I've recognized the 
       *child* in me that manifests herself in different ways.  Each 
       adult is *supposed* to *know* right from wrong and because we are 
       in a bigger body, we think that everyone is supposed to live by I 
       Corinthians, [when I was a child I spake as a child, but when I 
       became a man, I put away childish things]... who was Paul talking 
       to? ... ADULTS!!!!
       
       I know of several children who are large for their ages, and much 
       of the time *more* is expected out them then their maturity level 
       permits.  Just because you are *big*, doesn't mean that you are 
       mature and that includes adults.
       
What is the difference between "overlooking an error" and
"instant forgiveness" ?

       When you overlook an error, it tends to be filed away in that 
       memory bank that suggests you could build a case on it [possibly 
       with more infractions] later on.  Also, this allows for 
       RESENTMENT.
       
       When you *forgive*, our model is Christ, who says he placed our 
       sins/deeds as far as the east is from the west.  Forgiveness 
       requires not *ever* bringing it up again or building on it.
       
Does a hurt have to reach a certain level or amount of time 
before it can be removed by the "forgiveness" process ?

       I'm not sure the intent of your question, but it sounds like your 
       talking about AWARENESS.
       
       See for years I took the abuse from husband, not realizing that I 
       didn't *deserve* to be smacked once in a while... why because the 
       child in me had been smacked around enough to believe that was 
       acceptable behavior.
       
       As my awareness deepened [my relationship to Christ], I began to 
       *realize* and become *aware* that God didn't ordain me to be 
       abused, then anger set in.
       
       At first it was unrighteous/righteous anger [paradox].  Anyone 
       reading this would say that I had a *right* to be angry at being 
       slapped around, but I took it further in wishing my husband would 
       wreck his car and die during one of his drunken episodes, so that 
       I wouldn't have to be *trapped* in this relationship.
       
       My anger crossed the bridge of righteous indignation to murder, as 
       the Bible describes anger at that level.  Though, I had no 
       intention of *doing* anything to my ex... in heart I killed him.
       
       That was my breaking point, when I realized I had gone from 
       praying for his safety [as he drove home drunk], to wishing he 
       wouldn't come home at all... I asked for help and in a panic 
       called Al-Anon... still full of anger and confusion.
       
       How could I forgive this man for *all* the things he *UNJUSTLY* 
       did to me?  How could I deal with this anger?  God has revealed to 
       me my own *ugliness* and *sinful* nature and the acting out child 
       in me and you know, it sure made it easier to forgive my ex and 
       view him as a child in spite of his ghastly appearance when drunk.
       
       I'll continue next message...
       
    

Anger.... can cause unforgiveness

PDM and I were talking one night and I wish I could have captured the words 
that he and I spoke as they really rang a chord deep within me [yup I spoke 
'em, but darn if I can remember 'em exactly], here's an attempt:

God created each of us with the innate desire to know *Him* and when 
presented with the Gospel of our fallen state, many will come to know Christ 
as Savior.  But many resist the idea that we are sinful or fallen flesh and 
will become angry or indignant that the Bible says so.  What is it that 
causes man to not face their *own* sinfulness?  PRIDE.

However, as Christians even though we have already faced our own sinfulness, 
for most, it has only been to a degree, and when we are wronged, our pride 
steps up and says, "Hey back off bud!" and indignation or anger can emote.  

I had to ask myself is there such a thing as *righteous or godly* anger.. and 
the answer is YES!  We should always despise sin, when someone sins against 
us, I can't imagine jumping up and down and saying "Praise God, can you do 
that to me again!" :-)  Godly anger recognizes sin and despise it. 

Now that led me to ask myself the question, what is ungodly anger... well, 
ungodly anger is when we begin to the loathe or despise the person who has 
wronged us.  This kind of anger is related to our pride.  You see I *know* I 
did no wrong, therefore, I am *right*!  And this person is despicable for 
putting *me* through this!  The pride came in when I was busy feeling despise 
for the person, therefore, placing myself above him.  

At no time does Godly anger place you *above* the person who has wronged you, 
or places value on that person through condemnation, instead it identifies 
our *own* unacceptability in Christ and you begin to *hate* the sin and not 
the person.  

Struggling with the words,
Nancy 
    

We all have our endurance threshhold. Just that most of us are allowed to
live 'way inside it.  Forgiveness is 'easy' when the event is over, not
repeated; the offender is absent (or often so), or is a dependent who
doesn't hasn't reached the age of responsibility, or has some such excuse
(OK - they can all make us glitch, but often an 'excuse' helps us to step
aside from offense). 

When we hit our endurance threshhold, it exposes emotions and reactions
that we thought were 'dealt with' when we grew up, or when we became
Christians, or some personal landmark.  Christians *should* have a
well-sealed threshhold, but as Job found, we're not guaranteed never to
reach it. Reaching it as a Christian is witness to the heavenlies (Hebrews
12:1) just as much - I would say more than  - keeping our cool when the
pressure only varying slightly.  Remember Job.  He's a key example.

To live with uncontrolled threat - an emotional see-saw - is one of the
most destablising pressures.  It's been used to break people in war
situations  (be nice to them ... offer a cup of tea ... a cigarette... then
shout at them, beat them round the head, spit at them, worse... then
alternate..).   It's tough training.  If you can forgive that, you can
forgive anything. 

Kids are dependent, learning, being taught.  but a husband is kinda
expected to take more of a responsible role.  Looking after, rather than
being looked after. So when *he* becomes the stress source, it's major
league problem. 

Instead of sharing the burden, he has become a major burden himself. The
simplistic temptation is to say "OK- I'll become part of the problem too"
But you're not a kid.  You begin to recognise the limitations in yourself,
because you're being strained to breaking point, but you're still  trying 
to hold your responsibilities together.  And to forgive the implement being
used to crack you apart.  At that stage it's sick humor to suggest that you
should *forgive*.  You're in war situation, and need to come out of shock
first. 



� Just because you are *big*, doesn't mean that you are mature and that 
� includes adults.
Amen - some of the biggest kids I've known have been adults ... What they 
do seems all the more unforgiveable, but in fact, they are a heavier 
training tool too....

� God has revealed to me my own *ugliness* and *sinful* nature and the
� acting out child in me
He is **incredible**.  He takes you through enough to give you what anyone
would agree is reasonable excuse to break, take any 'excusable' vengeance 
on your husband, and what's the result?  Unplumbed depths of your heart 
are revealed, the surgeon has exposed a core deeper than most of us even 
know exists.  Taking you through pain and intense distress - He's brought 
you to His place of awareness, where you give Him the right to go ahead...

� and you know, it sure made it easier to forgive my ex and view him as a 
� child in spite of his ghastly appearance when drunk.
Nancy, He's done a miracle in you.  Honestly, who in the world (and I mean 
'in the world') would ever think it reasonable to 'forgive' someone who has 
driven you through such distress to realise you're less than perfect!

But it's what God expects because it's what He has done for each of us.  
Forgiven, that is.  In spite of our ghastly appearance.  All He has to do 
is pull aside the curtain a little for us to see, squirm, and say "Deal 
with it LORD - I can't stand it!".

Every trial is an opportunity.  We can collapse under it - shake our fists -
let the fragile shield of pride come up - get embittered and be defeated; 
OR - we can be victorious, refuse to take offense, love the unlovable.

The bigger the trial, the bigger the opportunity to forgive as He did...
Not easy - who said anything worthwhile was 'easy'?  But it's the way into 
His presence, and if that's not worth dying for, it leaves salvation out on 
a limb...

I'll settle for salvation every time, and trust to Him to know when I'm 
ready to take the next step into the kingdom...

						love
							'rew

Right on - pride is the trap of the devil that holds folk back from 
salvation.  2 Timothy 2:26...

This world is a place of growth and development.  Physically, mentally and 
spiritually.  We're developing all the time we're on this earth.  OK, 
perhaps I've not done much physical development for the last Hrrmmph years, 
but we are moulded and fashioned by everything we experience.  Our minds, 
attitudes and characters aren't stable from the moment we're born until the 
moment we die.  And we only die when we've developed to the stage He was 
bringing us to all along.  When we're ready for heaven (for Christians).  
When we've given the ultimate refusal (for non-Christians - see Genesis 
15:16).

And every new part of 'us' has to be yielded to the LORD - or to death.
So when He digs a bit deeper than before, because it's time to deal with 
something more significant to be perfected, it hurts - we flinch away - we 
make excuses, and that old pride tends to cut in again.  As we learn to 
know Him better, we gradually get to recognise and accept the times when 
the knife has to do a bit of paring again, when we've been too easy on
ourselves; when He wants us to know theat He *loves* us, according to
Hebrews 12:6, and is really making us holy... Not just your
common-or-garden average economy-size holy, but the bumper multi-pack 
'holy-as-He-is-holy' type holy, as per Hebrews 12:10.  Slight pause while 
we consider verse 11, 'No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but 
painful.'  Uh-huh .  I can go for that.  Can I go for the rest of the 
verse? - "Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and 
peace for those who have been trained by it..."
							- please...


[ Righteous / Godly ]  and  [ unrighteous / unGodly ]  angers....
Personally I don't think I'm justified in having anger at anything directed
at / received by me.  I always come back to the servants in the parable in
Matthew 18:21-35.  That's not to say I don't know anger at such things; 
just that I have to take it to Him immediately, otherwise it's going to 
harm ME for a start...

Sin 'against me' I have to ignore.  It's more to do with the development of 
the person who commits it, than it is to do with me.  Ultimately it's 
against God anyway (Psalm 51:4).  If I take it on myself to be offended, 
or withhold forgiveness until... - I then put myself in the place of God.
But then again - I've just never been tried in the fire here.  Could I hold 
to this principle if I were?  I couldn't wish to find out.  If He were to
bring such a thing... please, be merciful and don't remind me of my
words!  Their taste might be too bitter for awhile....

The only thing I *am* justified in being angry about is offences directed
at God.  The moneychangers etc at the temple were desecrating the holy
place of God's residence.  To 'not be angry' is to devalue God.  Jesus took
action.  I remember feeling real anger at a careless mistranslation in the
Bible, where a clumsy translator simplified the text to suit his own
limited perception, and deprived people of a perspective of the glory of
God.... 

I have to stop, but need to keep on thinking and praying over this one.

							love
								'rew

	Mark, Thank you for for answering my questions. 
	Nancy, your testimony is a blessing to us all.

	One of the greatest misconceptions and dangers we can have 
	with regards to "forgiveness" is to believe that we have 
	forgiven someone when we have simply just "overlooked" the 
	situation.
	The book I refered to ealier (A forgiving God in an unforgiving
	world) tells the story of Liz the well known Christian in the
	street, or better known as easy-going Liz who seems to shrug
	off all offenses. If someone does her wrong she turns the other
	cheek, walks away. She is such a witness in her community.
	People wonder why Liz is so strong.
	One day a child performs a hoax on Liz. This time Liz can't
	control her anger and explodes. The pressure of living up to
	the gracious Liz has backfired. The bubble has burst. In return
	Liz's actions caused the child some serious bodily harm which
	shocked the whole community (who were very quick to find out).

	Lesson : Are we building up steam within ourselves that could
	potentially explode ? Are our perscicutions (sp?) stacking up in
	our memory banks without being dealt with ? Being a christian
	is like being a teapot. If we're going to attempt to live
	through heated situations we have to vent our steam correctly
	else we could end up blowing our faith and witness away.

	This story hit me right on the head when I read it cos its
	just me, Mr bottle-it who is learning how to forgive.
	
	Erich.		
    

Hi,

I was planning on waiting with this, but it's just been "burning" in my heart
too long.  This is a quick (albeit long, three replies) series about where my
thoughts are, at this time, on the subject of forgiveness.  It's not complete,
but it's a start.

One question is: how do we reconcile the obvious command to forgive, with the
command from Matthew (KJV):

     18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass  against  thee,
     go  and tell him his fault between thee and him alone; if he
     shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Now this commandment comes on the heals of Jesus talking about finding the
one that was lost.  I believe that God puts the emphasis on reconciliation.
We have, afteral, all been given the "ministry of reconciliation", first 
off seeing men reconciled to God, but also having the desire to be reconciled
to those who have offended us.  (For now I'll stick to the issue of having
been sinned against...since we are talking about forgiveness)

The "obvious" problem with this commandment is that it could be taken "wrong",
in that the person who has sinned sees the other person as simply accusing
him/her, ie being "unforgiving".  The question would be, then, does granting
forgiveness *require* something from the sinner?  According to Luke:

     17:3 Take  heed  to  yourselves;  If  thy  brother  trespass
     against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.
     17:4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in  a  day,
     and  seven  times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I re-
     pent; thou shalt forgive him.

Jesus, in both Matthew 18 and Luke 17, is telling us that we have to go to
our brother and confront him with his sin.  If he *says*, and that's the key,
that he repents, we *must* forgive him.  Jesus goes on to say that, "even if
your brother sins against you 7 times (in Matt. 18:22 "seven times seventy"),
you must forgive him, SOLELY BASED ON HIS WORDS!  You obviously cannot have
"forgotten" the offense, particularly when it's happened 450 times already
today, and this is time number 451.  It's impossible!

Jesus goes on in Matthew to show us the magnitude of God's forgiveness towards
us with the parable about the "unforgiving" servant.  In Luke 17 he tells the
disciples that the problem is not with their faith (Peter: "Lord, increase our
faith..") but the problem is that they *must* understand their *duty*.  Because
of the magnitude of the mercy that God has shown to us (compared with the
servant who had an insurmountable debt) we are literally required, it is our
duty, to forgive those who sin against us *if* they say that they repent.

So, the way that it should work is:  someone sins against us.  Jesus requires
us to go to them (there are exceptions to this, which I will get to shortly)
and rebuke him.  I will interpret that to mean that we must go to him and
convince, not simply tell, but convince him of his sin.  In order to do that
we must understand what the Bible says about the sin.  The first issue being,
was it really sin?  Jesus is not telling us to go to our brother because we
don't like the color of his hair! 

[ This is a side note:  some time ago we had a group visiting us.  One of 
the persons in the group was a loud, boisterous, kind of person; who tended
to get on other people's nerves, in particular the way that this person 
laughed, particularly loud, was a bother.  One day some of us were sitting
around, and someone brought up the issue of this persons laugh, and how it
bothered them.  Others quickly chimed in, and agreed that "something must
be done.  This person must know how offensive they are being!"  I piped up
and said: "don't do it!"  You can't tell someone to "fix your face!"  This
isn't sin.  As a consequence, the issue got dropped, and the person was not
confronted.  Some months later, we got a letter from this person, in which
he/she reported how God had made so many changes in him/her in the time that
he/she was with us, ALL BECAUSE we had accepted him/her for who he/she was.
I wonder what would have happened if we had made the mistake of landing on
this person about their laugh....]

The person has sinned against us and caused a break in the relationship, or
fellowship, and it is our duty to go be reconciled to that person.  It is our
duty before God to do all that we can to bring about reconciliation; just as
God, in Christ, did all that He could to affect our pardon so that we could be
reconciled to Him in Christ.  Our duty to be reconciled to those who sin
against us (which is a "minor" debt in comparison to our sin for which Jesus
was crucified) is based on God's great mercy towards us.  And I believe that
that is a very important principle.  When we go our attitude is:

	we are seeking, as if looking for a lost sheep, to be reconciled,
	to "gain", or regain, the relationship

	it is of the utmost importance that we deal with it quickly, because
	we do not want our anger to become resentment and bitterness (Eph. 
	4:22-5:2 for starters) which, once rooted, can cause damage to many
	(Hebrews 12:14-15)

	we must desire to repent of our own sins (Matt. 5:23-26) and take
	the beam out of our eye (Matt. 7:1-5) (in some cases this may be
	that we have allowed the anger to go unchecked in our lives, we
	have let "many" suns set on our anger)

	we are not going to get revenge!  We are seeking, in love, to be
	reconciled

	we must forgive based on the person's words (ie no fruit, yet!)

	we are dealing with sin which, by definition, causes a breech in 
	the relationship.  ie, we aren't saying: "fix your face"

	we deal with the issue between us and the sinner ALONE!  We do
	not share these things with others, first.  We are seeking to
	be reconciled, not to spread gossip or slander.

	we keep in mind, particularly with "habitual sin", that we are
	ourselves prone to temptation and sin, and we approach the person
	in meekness (Gal. 6:1-2)

***I'll break here since I am over 100 lines, and continue in the next 
note.....

So, what is forgiveness?  Forgiveness is promising never to mention the sin
again to: 
	
	the sinner

	others

	ourselves

It would be impossible to equate forgiveness with forgetting.  A sin may be
"forgotten" in the sense that, when the fruits of repentance become evident,
the hurts associated are "healed".  I believe that someone had called this
the "process of forgiveness".  I personally don't agree with that statement
since forgiveness itself is a decision to no longer "bring to rememberance"
(ie no longer to mention) the sin.  It is a decision which we must make, it 
is our duty.  It is the healing and restoration that takes time and that is 
borne out of "fruits worthy of (or appropriate to) repentance".

Consider the situation where a husband has committed adultery.  He confesses
his sin to his wife.  She is, obviously, deeply hurt.  There has been a very
serious breech of trust.  The wife must forgive.  She must agree to no longer
mention (and especially not "harp on") the sin to her husband, others and
not even to herself.  If she finds herself thinking about the sin again, in
particular brooding about it, she must repent of this unforgiveness and push
the thoughts out of her mind ("bringing every thought captive", 2 Cor. 10??).

She was, however, deeply hurt.  The husband, if truly repentant, will begin
to bring forth fruits of repentance in his life.  He will learn to love and
care for his wife with the same love that Christ shows to the church.  In
time, the love that he shows for her will bring restoration to the relation-
ship, the wounds will heal (not simply be shoved off in the corner to fester
into bitterness), the trust will be rebuilt.

What if the person really does sin "seven times seventy"?  Can I assume that
his desire to repent is not genuine?  No.  That's why Peter "cried" out, "Lord
increase our faith!"  Or, to put it another way:

Peter: "Jesus, you're asking us to do the impossible!  How can I forgive when
	this person continues to sin against me?!?"

Jesus: "it's not your faith that's the problem, Peter.  You have to understand
	how important forgiveness is, it is your duty, you must do it!"

Peter:  "OK, Lord, but this person is habitually sinning, what am I supposed 
	to do?  I *can't* just brush it off.  He is obviously not sincere with
	his so-called repentance."

Gal. 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are
     spiritual,  restore  such  an one in the spirit of meekness;
     considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
     6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law  of
     Christ.

We have to take the next couple steps described in 2 Timothy 3:16.  We have
gone to our brother and convinced him of his sin (scripture is profitable for
reproof). Now we must help him "set things right", correction, and help him to
be "trained" in righteousness.  We give, in love, our time and efforts to the
sinning brother in order to help them learn how NOT to sin.  We recognize that
this is a problem that goes deeper than just sporadic instances, and that is
in need of counsel and help.  We may want to, if not able ourselves, go with 
the brother to a pastor, or christian counselor, to get help with overcoming 
this sin.

In the situation with the husband that committed adultery, the wife might, 
rather than brooding about and harping on the adultery, give of herself and
help her husband learn how to love her.  The general principle is one of:
putting off sinful habits, and replacing them with righteous ones.  The wife
would put off bitterness and put on helping her husband (with love and above
all, patience) learn to love her.  The husband puts off adultery, and puts
on, loving his wife as Christ loves the church, and being "drunken" in his
sexual relationship to his wife (Prov. 5).

OK, but what if the person refuses to acknowledge their sin?  Well, Matthew
18 deals with that.  We must go the next step and bring others into the 
situation.  Caution, however, must be exercised not to prejudice the witnesses
before the "trial".  Proverbs 18:17, along with Proverbs 25:9-10, tell us
that we must be careful not to prejudice the "court".  It's possible that we
have been trying to deal with something that was not a sin.  The brother is
simply not repenting because he didn't sin....it's possible!  When we bring
others into the situation, they must come in unprejudiced.  Remember, we must
always get the "beam" out of our own eye.  We are not bringing in these other
witnesses *simply* to move us on the way to excommunicating this brother.  That
is the consequence if he refuses to repent, but that's not the goal in bringing
the other witnesses.  The goal in bringing other witnesses is still to "gain
your brother."

The other witnesses help establish the fact that this was indeed sin.  It's
not just a matter of the "hurt" person wanting revenge.  It really is an issue
where the other person has sinned, and needs to repent.  The witnesses are
coming in "free" of any feelings of revenge, and need to be accepted by the
sinner as "impartial".  And the sinner needs to see that these witnesses are
interested in dealing with sin in the lives of both parties.

Only after the attempts to bring about reconciliation have failed, do we move
on towards excommunication.  But, we must remember that excommunication is, 
in itself, a means to affecting reconciliation.  The goal, even in excommuni-
cation, is to bring the unrepentant sinner to repentance, which should result
in "fruits worthy of repentance", and restoration.  Once the sinner, having
been excommunicated, repents, he *must* be restored to full fellowship (a 
mistake which some make is to consider excommunication as final, and not as
one of the "tools" that God has given the church in order to affect repentance
reconciliation and restoration).

****OK, I'm over 100 lines again....to be continued...

Now, what about Proverbs 10:12b, "but love covereth all sins"?  Shouldn't we
just "cover" the sin in love?  Yes.

Wait a minute!  Haven't you been saying this whole time that we *have* to 
confront (convict) the sinner, and that he has to at least say that he is 
willing to repent?  Yes. :-)  So, what's the difference?  When do we go, 
and when do we "cover"? 

In *both* situations (and this is a key point!) we are motivated by love.
But, it's probably easier to deal with the situations in which we go, assuming
that all other situations are ones that we "cover".  So, when do we go?

We go when we can't cover. :-)  We go when the anger that is in our hearts
towards this brother makes it such that the relationship is hindered.  We are
not able, for whatever reason, to cover it.  The "sin" is eating at us, and
we see that a normal relationship is no longer possible.  We *must* go so 
that the relationship can return to a normal, or even better, to an improved
relationship.  

A side note here, is that we must be careful not to apply "comparitive" judge-
ments in such situations.  It is not a matter of the supposed "severity" of 
the offense.  It is an issue that fellowship has been broken.  Am I over-
reacting?  Possibly.  But none-the-less, I must go, or I will sin.  I will
sin if I allow the anger to fester and turn into resentment and bitterness.
I must go, first off, to confess that I am becoming bitter, and that the sin
must be dealt with in order for me to be reconciled to the sinner.

We also go when we see that the brother is "overtaken" with the sin.  This
isn't a "one-shot" sin.  It seems to be habitual.  One of the things that
the fellowship of the saints is supposed to do is, to help sinning brethren
not be deceived by their sin.  To help them to see their sin as sin, and to
help them overcome it and live righteously.

We go when it's a "public" issue.  I personally believe that sins such as
slander, because they by nature involve others, ie third parties, need to be
confronted.  It is no longer just an issue strictly between myself and my
brother.  Other people have been pulled into the situation (adultery would
also be such a sin).

In all other situations, it is possible, and it needs to be preferential, to
cover the sin with love.  It was a minor issue, ie it is not building into
resentment, and I am not angry about it.  It does not seem to be a habitual
sin that my brother is struggling with, and it is strictly an issue between
the two of us.

It must be stressed that our goal is reconciliation.  Anything that does not
seek to bring about reconciliation is not loving and is therefore sin.  We 
have been commanded to love one another "as Christ" has loved us.  The Holy 
Spirit is always pointing out sin in our lives so that we can ask God's for-
giveness and be reconciled to God.  God is requiring the same thing of us.
It is our duty as His servants to forgive as we have been forgiven.

Well, I was planning on spending more time and doing a more thorough job of
this later, but...oh well.  I hope that I haven't been too unclear.

Rob

Hi me again,

I forgot one issue, which is a really touchy one, and one where I would have
to say that I have not come to a firm conclusion on, and that is:

What if the brother is unrepentant, and I cannot, for one reason or another,
follow the steps in Matthew 18?  The brother may be a member of another 
church, and that church does not practice church discipline.  Perhaps the
sinning brother is an elder (I know of a situation where an elder committed 
adultery with a woman in the congregation, and the board of elders refused
to deal with the sinning elder.  Incidentally, she had been in counseling with
the elder at the time because of marriage problems).

Again, this is touchy.  My current stance is: I essentially have to jump from
step 1 in Matthew 18 up to step 4.  Fellowship has been broken, the person is
unrepentant, and I need to deal with the issue so that it does not fester and
turn into bitterness.  I, therefore, treat the brother as a heathen and a 
publican.  He has not become one, I just treat him in the same way that I would
treat a non-believer.

How do I treat a non-believer?  I treat them as someone outside of the body
of Christ.  Someone who needs to be reconciled first and foremost to God, 
and not to me.  Someone who, basically, is in such a state that individual
sins are a non-issue.

In other words.  When I talk with a person who is a non-believer, I don't have
to spend lots of time trying to convince them that a particular sin, let's
use fornication, is their problem.  No!  Fornication is a sin, but their real
sin is their unreconciled state to God.  Everything else is minor in compar-
ison.  I don't go about proving to them that they are a fornicator (well, ac-
tually I might, but only in relation to the "big picture"), I share with them
the good news so that they will repent of their entire sin-filled life, and
be reconciled to God.

So, what does that mean in this situation?  It means that I drop the issue of
the particular sin that has been committed against me.  This has now become a
minor issue, because this brother has become unrepentant, and now falls under
God's judgment.  I have done all that I could to try to "gain" or "win" my
brother over, and he has refused.  There are no further steps that I can take,
and I must release my anger to God, and allow God to judge the person.

Again, I'm not 100% on this, but this is the direction in which I am leaning.

Rob

	Rob,

	I've extracted your notes, and hope to use them as a personal
	bible study on the subject.  Lots of wisdom there, thanks *so*
	much!

	Karen

	Nancy, you hit on something important there.

	Two weeks ago, my pastor spoke on anger.  She was talking
	about anger being a direct result of pride, and used the 
	story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (sp.) as an illustration.

	(As though we each had built a 90 foot golden statue of ourself,
	and expected everyone to bow down to it when we say so, and if they
	don't we get angry - mind you, I'm doing a terrible job explaining
	this, so if you want it the right way, let me know and I'll get you
	a tape...)

	Example:  You're driving down the road, and someone pulls out in
	front of you, and you have to brake to avoid hitting them.  You get
	angry and say, "I'm angry because he could have caused an accident",
	when you're actually angry because he didn't acknowledge that you
	actually are the king of the road (he didn't bow down to your
	golden image).

	Anyway, I do realize that that's a slight tangent, but I also
	feel that anger is very much tied to forgiveness, or shall I say
	unforgiveness.

	Now, to change direction a bit...

	Over the last few years, the Lord has blessed me in the area of
	forgiveness.  I'm much quicker to forgive than I ever remember
	being, and I actually find it to come almost naturally now.  I
	don't say this to boast, as this is really nothing of my own doing,	
	but is all the Lord's work.  I say it because it makes it hard for
	me when I'm the one who's done the wrong, and seek forgiveness, and
	can't understand if it's not quickly forthcoming.

	Here's how it works for me.  If I've wronged another, oftimes there's
	some conflict that goes on around it.  I hate conflict, especially
	where I'm involved.  I heard a "Focus on the Family" show one day
	where a couple was talking about their marriage, and the woman said,
	"I'm a peacemaker, and he's a peacekeeper."  That struck a chord with
	me.  I'm a peacemaker, and will try to resolve conflicts quickly,
	to an extreme at times (I get very frustrated if the other party
	is not so willing to resolve things as quickly).

	So, when conflict arises, I pray.  In prayer, I realize that I must
	both repent and forgive.  I *know* I can't ask for forgiveness from
	the father if I am walking in unforgiveness.   I also ask the Lord
	to heal any wounds that I have inflicted, as well as heal any wounds
	inflicted upon me.  The forgetting, as said by Rob and others, is
	an act of the will, and comes from God's love flowing through us.
	Much easier in theory than in practice... sometimes the forgiving
	and forgetting go hand in hand, sometimes they don't.

	Don't know how much sense I've made...

	From a Steve Camp song:

	Forgive me, forgive you
	Forgive the hurt that we put each other through
	I know the Lord can heal the deepest wounds
	But it begins with
	Forgive me, Forgive you

	Karen

>	feel that anger is very much tied to forgiveness, or shall I say
>	unforgiveness.

Karen, absolutely... Anger is a direct result of our *pride* being hurt 
[whether it is righteous or unrighteous anger].  

One of the first things you learn in Al-Anon is how to forgive the 
alcoholic, by taking a good look at yourself.  You can't *fix* anyone 
else or *change* anyone else, you can only change yourself, thus, 
changing how that person deals with you.


>	Over the last few years, the Lord has blessed me in the area of
>	forgiveness.  I'm much quicker to forgive than I ever remember
>	being, and I actually find it to come almost naturally now.  I
>	don't say this to boast, as this is really nothing of my own doing,	
>	but is all the Lord's work.  I say it because it makes it hard for
>	me when I'm the one who's done the wrong, and seek forgiveness, and
>	can't understand if it's not quickly forthcoming.

I see some conflict in your response here, Karen.  While you forgive 
quickly, you also look for forgiveness quickly.  You see when we have 
wronged someone we must allow time for God to work 
in their heart to receive the request and grant it.  But it should never 
be demanded.  Demanding forgiveness is like telling a child who is 3 
months old to get up and walk.  True humility requires nothing in 
return.  True humility allows for us to admit wrong and suffer the 
consequences of our actions, whether the *person* forgives or not.  True 
humility rests our sins before God and trusts in His forgiveness.  For 
the Bible states all sin is against Him.

Once again it is pride that demands immediate forgiveness.


>	Here's how it works for me.  If I've wronged another, oftimes there's
>	some conflict that goes on around it.  I hate conflict, especially
>	So, when conflict arises, I pray.  In prayer, I realize that I must
>	both repent and forgive.  I *know* I can't ask for forgiveness from
>	the father if I am walking in unforgiveness.   I also ask the Lord
>	to heal any wounds that I have inflicted, as well as heal any wounds
>	inflicted upon me.  

Karen, this is an excellent process and I believe very scriptural when 
we have wronged someone.  Sometimes we *sensitive* souls wish we could 
just erase our wrongs, where we have hurt someone because we *feel* that 
hurt too and sometimes more deeply then the person we have hurt.  It is 
this that drives us to, *Please forgive me and forgive me *now*, cuz, I 
can't stand this conflict. But that is not always how it works and we 
must be immersed in His love intensely enough to reap what we've sown, 
while agonizingly waiting for forgiveness [which may never come from a 
person, but is freely given from God]. 

>       The forgetting, as said by Rob and others, is
>	an act of the will, and comes from God's love flowing through us.
>	Much easier in theory than in practice... sometimes the forgiving
>	and forgetting go hand in hand, sometimes they don't.


I agree, forgetting, can be very difficult at best.  I will never forget 
what my *father* did to me... *never*, but I have forgiven him.  Even 
tho' I still do suffer some of the consequences of *his* actions, as 
they helped mould my relationship building tools.  I'm having to 
re-learn how to be holy and acceptable in relationships at all levels.  
Another topic, boundaries that were crossed, that effect my ability to 
understand healthy relationships... sigh.


>	Don't know how much sense I've made...

Well, Karen, I'd say you made as much as sense as a person can... which 
means YES!

	
Nancy
    

           <<< Note 55.0 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Search Me Oh God" >>>

!    Have you ever had trouble forgiving someone who has wronged you or
!    accused you falsely?
    
!    What is forgiveness?  Can you forget?
    
       What about forgiving an institution? I find forgiving a person
       very easy. BUt I find it more difficult to forgive an instituion.
       For me, that is the military and maybe what society tells us (roles)
       we are suppose to play, only to find out later that that (role) was
       self defeating and possibly destructive.
    
       There is no ONE to forgive it is a culmination of many 'ones', all of
      us in fact, which even includes the me's and you's.  - I find it
      most difficult to forgive myself! - I rationalize it as, I SHOULD
      KNOW BETTER!
    
    
    
    
!    What is unforgiveness and how does anger play a role?
    
      It is easy not to forgive ones own actions. This conceives pain,
      which when mature develops into anger. But at the root of anger
      is always pain. This pain can be traced all the way back to childhood
      for many people. It helps us become that who we are. This pain
      molds our character and in some cases gives us strength, (God uses
      even bad things for the benefit of goodness.) For the most part
      pain is that which we feel, whether emotionally or physically. When
      the pain is severe enough to inhibit us from drawing closer to God,
      that is when it becomes hard to forgive. We begin to "feel" and
      "experience" the pain and our thoughts turn inward - to ourself.
      What we forget then is God and His healing hand. Then,...the pain
      turns to anger. "we are all alone, no one can help us out of our
      pain and we become disillusioned with (first our fellow men - because
      they are immediatly in our paths, then and ultimately with God,
      - because He made us the way we are - (the thought being, we are
      wretched and depraved) - and we ask, "God why did you make me so
      angry?" - Never realizing that we made our own beds, - too busy
      trying to blame everything and everyone else around us.
    
      Why lash out? Why become embittered? Why become Angry?
       I think, for me,  the answer lies in self-esteem and personal
       acceptance of self.  I have to say to myself, "it IS O.K. that I
       can not do this or that I am not the best at that, or I never
       achieved 'X' or didn't choose path 'Y'." IT IS O.K. that I am
      who I am -  and God will love me as I am, (so long as all that I
      do, I do to the glory of God.)
    
      Paul said it best, (paraphrasing) Oh what a wretched man I am, who
     will save me from my self, - Thanks be to Christ Jesus our lord.
    
      In Christ,
    
       PDM
    

The question/problem has been brought up, what if the person that I go to is
not willing to forgive me?  I have committed the wrong.  I am repentant and
desire to be reconciled, but the person to whom I am going refuses to be re-
conciled to me.  

For one, I believe that we need to understand that unforgiveness is a very
serious sin.  "Forgive us our debts, AS WE forgive our debtors".  Matthew 18,
and how the "unforgiving servant" has his debt, after his Lord had forgiven
him, reinstated, and he was cast into prison.  It's a serious matter.

Nancy is right, though, that there may be a need to give the person more time
to forgive, but there is some danger involved.  It could be that the person
against whom we sinned becomes bitter (or already is bitter) towards us.  This
bitterness is a destructive root that must be dealt with.  We have approached
someone in humility (I hope :-), and they are unforgiving, and perhaps bitter
and resentful.  The tables have turned.  Whereas we came because of our sin,
now we must (in meekness, considering ourselves, Gal. 6) seek to help them 
overcome their sin towards us.  Bitterness can destroy many, ie it's not just
a problem for the bitter person, but for those around them, sometimes resulting
in slander and divisiveness, both of which are an abomination in God's eyes.

So, what has happened is that the Matthew 5 (if you remember that your brother
has ought against you, you go and be reconciled) is still in effect, but Matthew
18 comes into play.  We must now "rebuke" (or convict, as in convicting a crim-
inal) the other person of their sin of unforgiveness.  And we must follow all
of the steps in Matthew 18 that are necessary, all the way up to excommunication
if the person refuses to be reconciled.

We have to remember that there are two great commandments, and the whole of the
Law and Prophets hung on them, and they are the very basis of our covenant with
God.  One of which is to "love your neighbor as yourself".  Love does NOT keep
a record of wrong, ie love is forgiving.  By being unforgiving, a christian is
sinning against the basis of his covenant with God.  There is probably no more
clear commandment to us from God than John 15:12:

	This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved
	you (KJV).

Jesus goes on to point out the greatness of his love, by telling us that he
would be laying down his life for us, even though we don't deserve it.  The
christian who refuses to forgive and be reconciled is sinning against a command-
ment of God which lies at the heart of his (the christian's) covenant with God.

As I said earlier, the specific sin against us (in this case unforgiveness or
resentment) becomes secondary to the greater sin of sinning directly against
God and breaking covenant with God.  A person is excommunicated because he has
broken his covenant with God, and not directly because of a sin towards "me".

The sinning brother becomes a "lost sheep", and we must do all that is in our
power to see that sheep return to the fold.  This is where I agree with Nancy,
that we may have to give it some time.  It doesn't mean that we drop it, and 
let the bitterness take root more deeply in the person's heart.  If *my* sheep
were lost and in danger of being killed by wolves; I would not take the lax
attitude towards finding it that many of us take when dealing with sin in the
lives of our brothers and sisters.  Remember, anger that we do not deal with,
opens the door for Satan to get an advantage (place) in our lives (I'm not
intimating that deliverance is necessary, since I do not believe in the current
teachings on deliverance.  What I am talking about is: anger opens the door to
resentment, which leads to bitterness, which is destructive to many, because
we justify our slander and divisiveness.  We open the door to the temptations
of the devil to sow hatred and discord, and God *hates* that).

Giving the person time to deal with their own hurts and anger, is not allowing
them to "boil" in wrath and anger.  It's seeking, with fervor and meekness, to
see them reconciled to us, even if that means that we have to go again, and
again, to that person.  We must give it time.  Matthew 18 is not implying that
we go once alone, the next time with witnesses, and the next time to the church
and then the person is excommunicated.  It *is* implying that we do all in our
power, and when we have failed we seek help from others.  If that does not
work, we have to make the seriousness of the sin clear by bringing church dis-
cipline to bear on the sin.  THIS IS THE LOVING WAY TO DO IT!!!  1 John 5:3

     5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep  his  command-
     ments; and his commandments are not grievous.

All of 1 John makes it crystal clear how important it is for the christian to
love his brother, which requires that he be forgiving.

Rob

Phil (in .30) speaks of the difficulty in forgiving ourselves for our
sins, for we should have known better.

First, sin is against God, and secondarily against another.  This is the
negative of Love God with all, and neighbor as yourself.  When I sin,
I sin against God, and I sin against my neighbor, and by doing so, I
also hate myself.  Hate myself?  Yes, because to commit sin to God
and man, self will suffer the consequences.

To love God, and man, self will reap the benefits and thereby one who does
this loves themself.

"Ah, but," you say, "it says 'love your neighbor *as* yourself.'"
Speaking in ultimate terms, where is the contradiction?  How can
a man love himself if he dooms self to destruction?  Is this true
love of self?  (I'm leading far afield here with the paradox of 
the emptying of self which produces a greater self - because we
decrease and Christ increases in us.  The first shall be last and the
last shall be first.  Christian paradoxes; gotta love 'em.)

Back to forgiveness of self.  Sometimes, we need to see that no matter
how wretched we remember ourselves, God's forgiveness is promised in His
Word and is backed up by the power and authority God possesses.  Armed
with this information, we can be forgiven and know it.

I find that it is often the Accuser (Satan) who reminds us of our
failings (see 30.5) and not God.  It brings back a flood of remorse
for the sin we committed and the hurt we'd caused to God and others.
And as much as it is true that we crucified Christ with our sins, 
it is also True that He died to forgive us from our sins.  "While
we were yet [already] sinners, Christ died for us."

So when the Accuser whispers in your ear, declare the Promise of God
and tell him to take a hike.  "My account is clear!  God has promised
in His word that 'he who confesses their sin to God, He is faithful and
just to FORGIVE us our sin.'  Be gone."

My sin; oh the bliss of this glorious thought!
My sin, not in part but the whole,
 Is nailed to the Cross and ----> I bear it no more. <-------
Praise the Lord!  Praise the Lord, O my soul!
It is well with my soul.

If God removes our sin, what is there to forgive?  Go ahead and
remember as a marker never to despoil God's name again.  But tell
the Accuser to take a hike.  Your shoulders are for bearing others
to Christ and no roost for self-pity.

Mark

        Haven't read everything here, hope this is still relevant.

	Forgiving is very difficult for me to do, and oft-times I make
a conscious decision to forgive, and do so, and I think it's finished. 
But, the anger surfaces again, and I realize that the issue isn't 
completely finished. I think this is a problem for a lot of people -
the desire to forgive is there, but for some reason it's just so
difficult to get rid of the anger, which is a sign you are still 
holding on to something. And, often, you really are not trying to hold on, 
but you can't seem to let go. In other words, you are pretty helpless. For
some people, they are so deeply hurt they cannot even try to forgive,
even though they realize they need to as Christians. Well, you might try 
this....

	Go to Jesus in prayer and meditation.  Confess to Him the fact 
that you are helpless in trying to completely forgive Mumblefritz, (or 
the Mumblefritzes, or whatever), and you desperately need His help. Then, 
ask Jesus to forgive through you. Then wait a while in prayer for Him to 
work. 

Is this a cop-out? You bet! But try it, you might like the results.....
Something wonderful might happen, or the Lord might answer you by revealing
something that you yourself are able to do to get you to the "next step" in 
the process. (After which you'll need to go to Him in prayer again) Anyway, 
the Lord tends to like it when we offer Him our helplessness, and ask Him to 
do things through us, even in this area....


	Bob

    Bob,

    I don't think that's a cop-out at all! :-) And neither did Jesus:

	"I am the vine; you are the branches.  If a man remains in me and
	I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do
	nothing."
		-- John 15:5, NIV

    I take that last part literally -- apart from Him, there is absolutely
    nothing at all that I can do, from breathing to blinking to working to
    ministering to forgiving.

    In His love,

				*** Daryl ***

I don't think its a cop-out either, but a recognition of reality.  Like when
people have told me that religion is a crutch, and I've agreed with them - "Yes,
it's exactly like a crutch.  It holds you up when you are not capable of doing
it by yourself.  And if your leg is broken, a crutch is exactly what you need."
Would it be a cop-out for a person with a broken leg to use a crutch?

We are a broken people, we need the "crutch" of Christ to support us, and we are
utterly unable to do it without Him.  And this certainly includes forgiving
those that have hurt us too deeply for us to forgive by ourselves.

Paul

    
    Yup. It's as much a cop-out as accepting Christ in the first place!
    All of  Christianity is a cop-out! :-) It's just that we tend to
    forget this all the time, it's so against our nature to let God
    help us with things..
    
    Sometimes, all the knowledge and the wisdom and the counsel in the 
    world can't help you, and you end up having to go to Jesus. And 
    sometimes, that's just the way He wants it...
    
    Bob

    .33
>	Go to Jesus in prayer and meditation.  Confess to Him the fact 
>that you are helpless in trying to completely forgive Mumblefritz, (or 
>the Mumblefritzes, or whatever), and you desperately need His help.
    
    Ok, Bob.  Now, replace Mumblefrizes with BULLS!  :-)
    
    Mark L.

	Nancy,

	You brought up some interesting points, which I will think about.

	I do, however, think Rob hit on the crux of the matter.  To not
	forgive is sin, as much as the sin of the offender.  We must
	learn to forgive, and ask God's help if we consistently have
	trouble in this area.

	More to come...

	Karen

                A SERMON PREACHED BY THE REV'D ANDREW C. MEAD
                         AT THE CHURCH OF THE ADVENT
    THE FIFTEENTH SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST - SEPTEMBER 12, 1993 (PROPER 19)

Peter came up and said to Jesus, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin
against me and I forgive him?"  St. Matthew, 18:21-35.

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.  Amen.

The Gospel lesson for today is so clear it hardly needs explanation.  But it is
a hard lesson, especially when we feel we have been wronged by others.  I know
what it feels like to be wronged by others; so do you.  The last thing you want
to do is forgive those who have wronged you.  But Jesus says we have to forgive
them.  If we claim to be disciples of Jesus, then we must obey this teaching,
hard as it is.

The important thing is the linkage between our sinfulness and the sinfulness of
those who have wronged us.  The linkage is because of God.  All sin, no matter
whom it hurts, offends God and is against Him.  "Against thee only have I
sinned and done this evil in thy sight."  We do not want to be in the position
of the servant in the parable who, having been forgiven his debt by the master,
was caught being unforgiving towards a fellow servant by the same master, who,
in his anger, withdrew his mercy!  "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive
those who trespass against us."

The former Bishop of London once said in a great sermon that in this fallen
world of ours, the most creative act any one of us can do is to repent!  And
repentance not only means saying "I'm sorry," which it does.  Repentance
implies readiness to forgive when someone has injured us.  It is a disposition
of the heart that is called for by Jesus.  It is a state of grace.

Forgiveness is not cheap, it is costly.  It means climbing down off the high
horse of our pride and being able to say, "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have thought
that.  I shouldn't have said that.  I shouldn't have done that.  Please forgive
me."  Forgiveness also means letting go of our wounded feelings and saying,
"I'm sorry too.  I don't think you really knew what you were doing.  I forgive
you."  This is not easy to do for any of us.  At least I can assure you it
isn't easy for me.  But Jesus requires it.

This is not to say that we are to be naive and gullible about the designs of
our enemies.  But it is to demand of us that we pray for them, bless them
rather than curse them, and be prepared to forgive them, hard as it is.  They
are just sinners, people like us, too; and they need the life-giving Body and
Blood of our Saviour just as badly as we do.  Jesus loves them, our enemies,
just as he loves us.  Think of how the earliest apostles must have felt about
their persecutor, Saul of Tarsus.  Then he became the greatest apostle of all,
St. Paul. 

I have a little prayer that I have used almost daily for many years.  It is a
prayer, "For our enemies," and I would like to read it; it is very old, English
before the Norman Conquest: "God of peace, lover and guardian of charity,
bestow thy true peace and love on all my visible enemies.  Give them remission
of their sins, and by thy power help me to escape out of their snares and those
of my invisible foes.  Through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Amen."  Then I follow it
up with a "Prayer against evil thoughts": "O Almighty and Most Loving God,
mercifully regard my prayer and free my heart from the temptation of evil
thoughts, so that I may become the worthy dwelling place of thy Holy Spirit.
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.  Amen."

This is what it takes to repent, to forgive, to have a heart softened by grace
-- the constant opening up to the Holy Spirit.  We are not at all taking a soft
line on sin -- anger, lust, greed, false witness, all these remain deeply
offensive to God and against all virtue.  But without the grace of repentance
and forgiveness, all we have is hard and merciless wrath, with sin and
retaliation ricocheting all over.  Think of the great mercy of what is coming
to pass in the Middle East; to see Arafat and a Rabbi embracing!  You can
hardly believe your eyes.  This is a very good lesson for our parish family.
It doesn't take much for a parish church to degenerate into something like the
Middle East or the Balkans.  After all, parish churches are full of sinners.
But for a church to be a place where enmity, ill will, envy and jealousy,
suspicion and misunderstanding are overcome by the grace of God, this is truly
the sign that the church belongs to Jesus Christ, that Jesus is seriously being
followed.  Dearly beloved, friends and foes, let us love one another for
Christ's sake, let us be sorry for our sins and repent, and let us be quick
to forgive. 

In the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.

    When I started this note, I was in a dilemma of forgiving my ex-husband
    for something that he NEVER ADMITTED to having done [though it was
    fact].  As I was writing another note it came to mind the incident with
    the gun... another incident in which he never admitted to having done.
    
    I asked is it possible to forgive and forget and should we forgive when
    the wrong hasn't even been acknowledge by the wrong doer? :-) 
    [Whew! took my breath away typing that sentence.]
    
    And then as usual my Pastor preached a sermon not too long ago about
    forgiveness [I know my Pastor has a video camera hidden in my home].
    And these words came through.... When Jesus was on the cross he said,
    "Father, *forgive* them for they know not what they do."  Had those who
    crucified Christ asked for forgiveness?  No.
    
    I forgave Rafael for those items he has never admitted to having done
    and furthermore I asked his forgiveness for wrongs that I have
    committed unknowingly. 
    
    Forgiveness is powerful ... that is why God loved us so much He sent
    His Son so that we wouldn't perish [pay the penalty for our wrongs] but
    have ETERNAL life [forgiveness].
    
    Nancy

	Nancy,

	We covered this topic in our Marriage Ministries course last night.

	I've got lots of thoughts to enter after that teaching, when I get the
	time.

	The lesson used not only the example of Christ at the cross, but also
	the example of Stephen to show that forgiveness is necessary *whether
	or not the offender acknowledges the offense*.

	There was other good stuff about the need to forget, also.  I'll pull
	together some scriptures when I make my entry.

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    I'm looking forward to your entries. :-)
    
    Nancy

    Re: Note 55.41 by CNTROL::JENNISON
    
>	The lesson used not only the example of Christ at the cross, but also
>	the example of Stephen to show that forgiveness is necessary *whether
>	or not the offender acknowledges the offense*.
    
    I too await this eagerly.
    
    I fall into a mode where I demand knowledge of the offense before I can
    easily grant forgiveness.  I don't know what drives me towards that...
    but I want to find out.
    
    James

    Our minister has a favourite saying about forgiveness. 
    
    NO FISHING!
    
    She says that, when you ask God for forgiveness, it's as though your
    sin has been dropped down a deep well. Out of sight, out of God's mind.
    Unfortunately, some of us find it hard to accept this, so they go to
    the well with their fishing rods, pull it back up, examine it all over
    again and ask God's forgiveness. And so it goes on, over and over
    again, with God being repeatedly reminded about a sin that He had
    forgotten about and wishes heartly that the sinner could forget too!
    
    I read a book recently about a pastor (I think) whose mother never
    accepted that she was forgiven and used to go to the front of the
    Church at every opportunity to re-dedicate herself. He said that, at
    her funeral, he couldn't help watching the coffin, in case she did it
    again out of sheer habit!
    
    I don't think God meant us to forgive AND forget on our own. We can so
    often forgive a sin against us, but we keep reminding ourselves of that
    sin. If this causes bad feelings, then we need to tell God and ask his
    forgiveness and help to forgive absolutely.
    
    A lady I used to visit for Bible study once told me that someone had
    sinned against her. She was hurt and then she forgave that person,
    asked God for forgiveness and tried to put the matter out of her head.
    
    However, she kept the letter that proved her to be in the right FOR
    YEARS and occasionally looked it over, went over the whole thing in her
    mind, relived those hurt feelings and asked God to forgive that other
    person ALL OVER AGAIN!
    
    One of the hardest things that lady ever did was to burn that letter.
    She no longer has proof that she was in the right, but she is far more
    in the right now than she was before!
    
    And how relieved God must feel that He hasn't got to be reminded of
    THAT sin ever again!
    

� He said that, at her funeral, he couldn't help watching the coffin, in case
� she did it again out of sheer habit! 
Loved it, Julie! ;-)

I've so much appreciated this note....  Forgiveness can't be 'conditional' 
by definition - as soon as it is, it is no longer forgiveness, but 
something approaching an appeasement of personal justice....

When Jesus spoke of forgiveness in Luke 17:3-4, He made it clear that the 
one asking forgiveness had no depth behind the request, because the offense 
could be repeated many times even in the same day.  Our privilege is to 
forgive as He did...


								Andrew

	Hopefully I can enter some from home on Friday, unless I get some 
	unexpected free time tomorrow.

	Last night, we were doing our homework on Forgiveness, and found myself
	of the verge of tears the whole hour.  Jamie and I had some good 
	discussion that was beyond the actual homework question, but was
	keeping on the topic.  After we completed one question, and moved
	to the next step, as I was reading, I began to cry.  The more I
	tried to stop it, the more I cried.  It took getting up from the
	table and gettting a bear hug from Jamie to stop the tears.  At first,
	I couldn't say why I was crying.  Then, I realized that it was the
	revelation of just what God has done for us through His forgiveness,
	and just what He requires from us in forgiving others.  Even in
	an area where I have felt blessed (to be able to forgive quickly), I
	realized how short I fall.  This was not condemnation, but Godly 
	conviction that really changed me right at that moment.  

	I think the scriptures are very clear about forgiveness, and hope
	that my next entry can show that.

	Karn

    .46
    
    Karen,
    
    That's great!  It really helps me when folks share these kinds of
    events in there lives.  So many people feel trapped in behaviors and
    can't see past the behavior to God's changing truths. I know I'm
    guilty.  But knowing that your attitude of heart and God's forgiveness
    truly does change us through your testimony inspires me.
    
    Nancy

Karen, like to give us some homework to do too?  I'd appreciate whatever 
you can share about Him there...

						Andrew

	Sorry I haven't gotten in here to add what I wanted to.

	I've got about 5 minutes, I'll put in some things we covered,
	along with some of the discussions Jamie and I have had on this 
	topic.

	Forgiving the offender, regardless of his/her state of repentence:

		Agreed that this is *most* difficult, but it is a requirement.
		
		The bible tells us that we are to forgive "anything you may
		have against anyone, to that your Father in heaven will forgive
		the wrongs you have done" (Mark 11:25)

		Note that there is nothing about the offender's state of
		repentence.  We're to forgive EVERY offense, or cannot expect
		the Lord's forgiveness on our own part.

		Again, look at the examples of Jesus on the cross, forgiving
		those who are about to crucify Him.  Look at Stephen, forgiving
		those who are in the process of killing him.  Did any of them
		ever repent ?  Who knows ?  If I want to be more like Jesus, I
		need to follow his example.

		Forgiving does not mean the hurt is gone.  It means that we
		can start the healing process, and we also release the other
		person to repentence.  The whole situation is out of our hands.

	What does it mean to have forgiven  ?

		It means that the offense is put away.  The hurts may take
		time to heal, but we have made the conscious decision to put
		the issue to rest.  This means not bringing up the offense
		or rehashing the issue.

	Much more to be said... hopefully I can get back today, if not, please
	forgive me in advance ;-) and wait patiently...

	Andrew, homework assignment - I don't want to take too much from the
	course literature, but I don't think this is an unreasonable exercise
	to borrow - Write down all the reasons you have used in the past to
	withhold forgiveness.

	Once that's completed, see if you can support any of those reasons with
	scripture.

	Karen

Ugh!  Thanks for the homework, Karen.  Might take until about March 1st to 
get it worked out though.... Those words didn't taste so good ;-}

								Andrew

    This note hasn't seen much action lately, but on the off chance that
    someone will benefit from it.....
    
    Several months ago, actually almost a year ago, God was dealing with me
    in a specific area of my life.  While reading a book on the subject
    that needing working on, He revealed to me my need to seek a certain
    person's forgiveness.  The revelation of it to me was like the sunrise: 
    first there's darkness, then lightness comes gradually until there is 
    full brightness - that's the kind of dawning or "revealing of truth" I
    experienced.  It was at first a murkey memory, then, as more and more of
    the reality sunk in, so did the shock and horror of what I had done. 
    (Someone might think I had killed someone by my description - no it 
    wasn't that bad - but sin is sin is sin in His eyes; and I'll not tell
    what the sin was because that's not the point of my sharing.)  I should
    add that this was something that occurred when I was a child (somewhere
    between 10 - 12, I think, and the person involved was also a child at
    the time, a couple of years younger than me.  We were also both
    christians at the time.
    
    So, over a period of days and weeks I let this reality sink in and live
    with me.  I knew I needed to go to this person, but was resisting.  I
    had not seen them or had contact with them in any way in several years. 
    I unexpectedly ran into them at a church function last November.  I
    wanted to say something then (the conviction on me was SO strong) but
    didn't have the courage and made excuses ("I haven't seen them in
    years; they'll think I'm crazy bringing this up now.")  Time passed and
    I [sort-of] forgot about it, but the Lord would bring it back to the
    surface from time to time.
    
    About a month ago it came back on me full-force.  Every day I would
    think about it - finally one day the beginning of August I thought  
    "I just have to bite the bullet and do it."  I picked up the phone and 
    called said person and told them I'd like to talk to them about something 
    and when and where would be a good time to do that?  We decided on a date
    about a week later, which happened to be a Monday.  The Sunday before,
    what did the pastor talk about?  Forgiveness!!  (Matthew 5:18 or is it
    18:5?)  Another confirmation that I needed to take care of this and not
    delay.
    
    With sweaty palms I knocked on the door of the apartment wondering how
    all this would turn out.  After some small talk I explained why I was
    there and how I had debated going because where I had forgotten about
    the incident (and thought they might have too) I didn't want to dredge up
    any unpleasant memories for them, but felt God had convicted me to
    confront the situation.  I asked for forgiveness (for 2 things
    actually).  It turned out that the first thing (which was kind of a
    general thing, like "I was mean to you when we were kids") was O.K. -
    it never really bothered them (?) and the second, more specific
    incident was not remembered - but said "I forgive you - even though I
    don't remember!"  So it was not the horror show I envisioned.  We had a
    pleasant visit after we got business out of the way.
    
    The one thing that really struck me was how gracious the person handled
    it all:  Here I was, someone who comes in out of the blue, lays this on
    them and they were able to sort of pick up where we left off, if you
    will.  If the person had been truly (or still) angry/hurt at the things 
    I had done, it may not have turned out as well, and I realize that.  
    Obviously, I am glad that God had either protected them or already healed 
    them from the pain I (think) I caused them.  It was a lesson to me to be 
    as gracious when I am on the other end.  It gave me a wonderful picture
    of how the Lord readily forgives us.
    
    Karen

    Wow, Karen... AMEN!  What a blessed testimony...
    
    
    
    
    

    Thanks for sharing that, Karen.  Something that I recently experienced
    is having forgiveness go the other way too.  For example, when someone
    wrongs you, it can tear you up waiting for an apology from them.  If
    you just go to that person and tell them you forgive them for what was
    done to you, it also lifts quite a burden off you.  I'm sorry I can't
    share any more specifics around how it came about in my life, but I can
    promise you that the Lord will also nudge in this direction and that it
    works.
    
    Mike

Karen
.51>It was a lesson to me to be as gracious when I am on the other end. 

Mike
.53>    when someone
.53>    wrongs you, it can tear you up waiting for an apology from them.  If
.53>    you just go to that person and tell them you forgive them for what was
.53>    done to you, it also lifts quite a burden off you.

Interesting how this came up yesterday.  Last night, I had someone come
to me and apologize for hurting me (and my wife).  It was another Christian
and we like to think that Christians shouldn't hurt others, or even that
Christians shouldn't get hurt!  I dealt with feeling guilty that I was hurt,
but realized that there isn't a wrong for being hurt - it just happens.

Anyway, this person asked to see us face to face - often the better way of
asking forgiveness.  I think it was phrased along the lines of "if I have
hurt you..."  I told this person that we were hurt by him, but that we had
been working through the issue and had already forgiven him, but that we
forgive him to his face, now.  Unlike Karen's friend, this was a fairly
recent string of events.  (In fact, similar to what Mike suggests, I have 
spoken to this person to let him know that we were hurting over some things.
Lack of proper communication and poor communication was the root of this
problem and I was not going to perpetuate that by leaving it unknown.
I think too many people hurt and think the other person surely knows that
the other person is the reason why they are hurting; but the other person
often does not know, is oblivious, or may not be sensitive to such things.
So, I spoke to him and left the ball in his court.  Mind you, we had forgiven
him in our hearts and it was up to him now for the rest.)

When I told him that we forgive him, I also said that we would continue to
heal over this, but that forgiveness is complete.  The sting is still there.
(If someone accidently runs into you whiel skiiing, you're going to hurt even
after you've forgiven that person; the emotions are the same.)

"Of all the words of thought or pen, these are the worst: 'it might have been.'"
Things may have turned out the same way that they did, but they could have
been much better.  God doesn't cause bad things to happen so that good will
come out of it.  But God does use bad things so that He can work them for
good.  (If you break a yolk, make an omelette.  Not what you intended, but
something good can come of it.)

I'm sure it wasn't easy for him - it is a humbling thing.  And the temptation
to unload was there, believe me.  Extending grace and forgiveness is also
a humbling thing.  It denies the inner rage of indignation at being hurt.
I suppose this is one thing that gets harder the more it happens; you 
would hope that some people learn to stay off of people's toes.  I quipped
afterward to my wife: "seventy times seven; what number are we on?"  Shame
on me, but I am learning... I think.

I know people cannot deal with confrontation and even for an extrovert such
as me, it is not easy - but it is necessary to confront in love, so that
Satan does not drive wedges between the children of God.  How one accepts
your confrontation is not your responsibility; how YOU react is.

Mark

Snarf.

    Ya, but....
    
    There is a situation in my life (I may have entered this somewhere
    before) that I'm not sure I can forgive and I know I'll never forget.
    
    The situation was at my mother's funeral... We were all at my dad's
    house getting ready for the funeral, at which time my brother (two
    years my junior) attempted to rape Peggy (my wife for those who don't
    know). Now, my brother's wife and family was also in the same house as
    this was going on. My brother was *suppose* to have been a deacon of
    his church as well....
    
    Now, I know the Christian in me should forgive and forget, BUT what he
    did and where he did it makes this Christian task extremely hard to do.
    
    I do know that lately, all my thoughts are on that situation, but I'm
    not sure if I can ever forgive and forget...
    
    Would you?????
    
    Bob
    

    Continuing on the theme of approaching one who has offended YOU -
    
    A few incidents have occurred in my family, one with my mother, the
    other with my brother.  I am hurt by what they said and did (or rather
    DIDN'T do.)  Almost daily the situations run through my mind and I
    think: "Let it go, you don't have a right to expect such-and-such." 
    And I do want to let it go, but is it going to keep coming back to me
    until I approach them?  I especially feel a distance between my mother
    and myself and I think she feels it too.  I think what is really
    standing in my way is the fact that she ranked on me for not telling 
    her something that SHE FELT I SHOULD HAVE TOLD HER - her way of being
    in 'control', I think.  (We're talking about a very minor thing; not a 
    serious issue.)  Then, I find out the next day, through someonelse (in
    a very innocent manner - they were not aware of what happened the
    previous day) that SHE JUST DID THE SAME THING TO ME (not giving me all
    the details about a (non-essential) issue)!  Hypocrisy!
    
    Karen 

    Bob,
    
    How aweful for both you and Peggy.  The betrayal and hurt
    you feel must be aweful.  I don't know what to tell you
    and I don't know how I would handle it but I will pray
    for you and Peggy and for your brother.
    
    God bless you,
    Pam

From .3

>Corrie Ten Boom asked God for forgiveness because she could not for-
>give [of her own volition - her emotions would not permit it]. But God
>enabled her to forgive. I imagine that putting that hand out to that
>scoundrel was the toughest thing she ever did of her own free will.
>It wasn't emotional, or it wouldn't have happened. By doing so, she
>was confronted by the hurt and in doing so, God enabled her to con-
>tinue the process of healing in her.

There are some things that seem unforgivable - emotionally.  If it helps,
forgiveness is not an emotional response.  Emotion generally follows,
sometimes much later, maybe never.  Hurt may linger even after forgiveness
but healing cannot begin until then.  Many wounds are still tender after
it has healed over, and the area may be still too sensitive to be touched.
This is separate from forgiveness, which is an act of the will and mercy, 
and not of the emotion or even of justice!  We don't deserve forgiveness.

I know it is hard.  I KNOW it is hard.  So did Corrie.  I'm not telling
you, Bob, what you must do, because I am incapable.  But allow God to 
speak to you and he had to Corrie - and go ahead and argue with Him as
she did.  God loves you and understands your hurt and indignation, and
knows the injustice against your family.  And He does care about your hurt.

Mark

Karen,
  Communication lines are cut by the devil.  When the lines are down, 
then many things can be thought of that may be blown out of proportion,
or have no truth to them.  Certainly, the longer the lines are down,
the more "distance" you will feel.  The more you keep the communication
lines open, the closer your relationship will be.  We know this to be
true when we let our relationship with the Lord drop off - all of a sudden
we find God to be distant, yet he has not moved.
  We find it difficult to communicate our hurts in a loving fashion, so
we choose not to communicate them at all.  We certainly should not use our
hurts to hurt them back, exploding into arguments of rage.  We need to 
find a way to communicate, and repair the lines.  Perhaps the other person
may not want to repair the lines.  You've done your part; perhaps you will
be prompted at another time to attempt the reparations again.
  Let's strive to remove the wedges.

Mark

    re: .56
    
    Bob-
    
    A very difficult situation - and a very hard thing to forgive. 
    However, I would like to point out one thing, and I hope I can convey
    this in the manner I intend to (without offending):  What your brother
    did (or tried to do) was done first and foremost to your wife, not you. 
    I understand that it affects you greatly, and it should, but the
    primary offense is not yours to take, it is your wife's.  What are her
    (current) feelings on this whole issue?  In my childhood, I often found
    myself taking up offenses against others for things that they did to my
    friends, my parents, whoever - not me directly.  Of course, I would be
    angry/hurt knowing that someone did or said thus-and-so to someone I
    cared about, and I could certainly have my opinions on the issues, but
    we have to guard ourselves against taking up another's offense.  (I do 
    believe that your brother needs to ask BOTH of you to forgive him - 
    Peggy, for the obvious reasons; and you, because she belongs to you, 
    is part of you, and when our spouse hurts, we hurt.  Whatever affects 
    our spouse, affects us.)
    
    I believe there are several steps to complete forgiveness (which are
    outlined in this note's earlier replies.)  Not all steps are required
    in all cases; obviously, forgiving someone for an attack such as
    happened to Peggy is going to be more difficult and involved than
    forgiving someone for stealing money from you (in my mind, anyway.)
    
    We need to be WILLING to forgive - and the only reason we can even do
    that is through the Lord's grace.  He COMMANDS us to do it - always,
    regardless of the particulars.  If we withhold forgiveness to others,
    He will not forgive us.  We cannot do it of our own will.  
    Something as serious as this situation cannot be forgiven overnight - 
    there are steps or phases we go through; and we need to go though it in
    order to start building trust again.
    
    I'll be praying for you and Peggy.
    
    Karen   

    re .51
    
    I have done this many times (put off asking for forgiveness in fear of
    rejection).  Satan would have us to live in fear of going and asking 
    forgiveness of someone, projecting their possible responses out in our mind.
    I am cross posting note 486.10 below.
    
           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The CHRISTIAN Notesfile >-
================================================================================
Note 486.10                          DESPAIR                            10 of 27
ODIXIE::HUNT                                         33 lines  27-MAY-1994 13:05
                          -< His Grace is Sufficient >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have been praying that I would learn to "walk in His love" more each
    day.  I heard Malcolm Smith share the story of when Jesus & the
    disciples were crossing the sea & a storm arose.  The disciples became
    frantic, while Jesus slept.  The disciples woke Jesus up and said "Wake
    Up! Don't You know we're about to die?" (my loose paraphrase).  Why was
    Jesus unconcerned?  Because He knew how much His Father loved Him.  If
    we are walking in His love for us, then we shouldn't fear (or despair
    for that matter).
    
    Why do I fear?  Malcolm Smith has a saying that "God only gives grace
    for today".  Usually when I fear, I am projecting out into the future,
    and I am usually projecting the worst (Satan plays a big part here as
    He introduces these thoughts in my mind).  [It may go something like
    this- I am probably going to lose my job.  What if I can't find another
    job?  Who's going to pay the house payment, feed the family, etc.,etc.] 
    God, however, lives with me in the here and now.  I need to focus my
    thoughts on how much God loves me and allowing God to live in & through 
    me now.  If I'm abiding in Him & in His Truth, then I won't fear or
    despair.
    
    Satan, is a deceiver, and wants me to base my thinking on error,
    instead of truth.  However, God does not love me or accept me less if I 
    am deceived.  He loves me, period, and accepts me based on what Jesus
    has done for me.  Nothing I do can add to that, or take away from it.
    
    Its my prayer that we will continue to grow in His grace and see life
    more from His perspective.  We are His beloved children.  He loves us
    and will provide for our needs.
    
    Bing
      
    
    
     

    re: .61
    
    Bob/others:
    
    After reading my previous entry, it sounds kind of harsh to me.  Please
    forgive me if it offends.  I kind of sounded like "You must do this!" 
    That's what the Good Book says, but of course none of us are perfect
    and we can't do it without HIM!  (Even then, it isn't easy).  Out of my 
    zealousness, I may have overstepped my bounds, but this topic (forgiveness)
    hits home strongly with me as it is something the Lord is working on with 
    me in my own life.  I also felt I could respond as the subject (which Bob 
    speaks of) is one I have personal experience with and know how painful
    it is.
    
    Bless you,
    Karen
    
    
     

    
    For sake of not repeating myself, I dealt with the "anger" part of
    injustices that happen to us in .18 and .19 of this  note.
    
    I hope you'll take the time to read them.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

    Re: 55.56
    
    There is no way we in our own flesh can forgive something like this.  I
    dated a girl, several years before getting married, who had been
    sexually abused on numerous occassions by her own brother.
    
    I have gone through a physical action before, which helped many to deal
    with this type of hurt and bitterness.  We took slips of paper and
    wrote down who the person we needed to forgive and what they had done
    to us.  We then physically nailed the offenses to a cross, as a symbol
    that we were giving this burden to the Lord.  Its only through His
    power that we can forgive.
    
    Bing

    As most of you know I am intimately aware of sexual abuse... and I am
    intimately aware of forgiving the abuser.
    
    It can and does happen... but only through allowing the Spirit of God
    to speak to your heart...  Let God give you the images of forgiveness
    and mercy as he has poured them on you... and remember that God loved
    the abuser/murderer/thief before the foundation of the world... just as
    he loved you.
    
    Please read .18 and .19 if you will.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

�    I do know that lately, all my thoughts are on that situation, but I'm
�    not sure if I can ever forgive and forget...

Bob, like Mark said, both at once may be too big a bite.  The 'forgiving' 
is the important part for now....  I really feel that it's important for us 
to be able to forgive even big offences, like this, against 'us'.  And the 
LORD Jesus is into this in a big way, but BIG.

He is pure, holy and perfect.  And we spat in his face and said we'd rather
choose our own garbage to live in that His heaven.  So - instead of zapping
us from here to eternity - He came and walked in our shoes, but without the
sin.  He let us beat Him up untli He was about unrecognisable to be a
human...  Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53....  And still He didn't take just and
deserved vengeance on us, but made that very rejection the time when He
Himself chose to take the foulness of our sins.  Our responsibility
transferred to Him.  Our guilt transferred to Him.  Our punishment
transferred to Him.

Not an outward, respectable 'paying for sins' at a distance, but one which 
hurt to the depths of His eternal soul.  One which uncomprehendingly 
separated Him from the Father with Whom He was one.

He took the foulness of rapes, thefts, murders, and every conceivable sordid 
act of mankind.  To spell it out, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 warns that the 
kingdom of heaven CANNOT be inheritted by (amongst others), people who are :
  sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, prostitutes, thieves, greedy, 
  drunkards, slanderers, swindlers.
- no way in for them at all.
1 Corinthians 6:11 then continues to say "That's what some of you were, but 
yuo have been washed, sanctified, justified in the Name of Jesus and by the 
Spirit of God."

He took all those deeds, so that they - and we - should not have to bear 
what we are totally unable to pay for.

The difference in degree between, say, an attempted rape, and an actual 
one, or the momentary yielding to an attraction solely in the mind (as in 
Matthew 5:28 - what you might call a mental rape), fades into
insignificance when any of these are compared with the mind of Christ that
God yearns to give us, which has no room to entertain sin - awareness of
its presence gives only a sickening revulsion.  The mind that we *shall* have 
one day, in heaven, and increasingly approach, under His leading, here...

The only way we can really forgive others is to see ourselves compared to 
God.  Then we would be so revolted by what we are inside, that the outward 
expression of other people's leaden, world-tied feet makes them rather a 
matter of pity and love than of any offense to us.  How can we take offense 
at a human, when we have given Him so much cause for offense, and He has 
taken it and still loved us enough to die for us....

�    not sure if I can ever forgive and forget...
�    Would you????? 

Bob, I don't know if I *could*.  I only know that I'd *have* to, or I 
wouldn't dare face God.   How could I come before Him, asking Him to punish 
a fallen fellow human - however bad - and yet to forgive me....  And if 
offense remains in my heart against another, that's what I'm effectively 
bringing before Him continually.

The immense importance of forgiveness is stressed immediately followuing 
the LORD's prayer, in Matthew 6:14 :
  "For if you forgive men when  they sin against you, your heavenly Father 
   will also forgive you.  But if you do not forgive men their sins, your 
   Father will not forgive your sins."

[ also Matthew 18:21-35, Romams 12:14-21, Colossians 3:13, Mark 45:24, 
  Mark 11:25, James 2:13 ]

Bob, He wants you to be more like Him all the time.  So much so that He's 
given you an immense opportunity - trusted you - to forgive like He does. 
It's tough.  But the reward is worth it.  To show you the reward beforehand
would be to minimize its value, because it would turn it into cupboard
love.  He asks you to trust Him, and to love Him enough to let *Him* take
the great hurt of your heart, instead of nursing it as your right to be
offended. 

I know 'saying' and 'doing' are totally different things.  I know that 
something which pierces as deep as that sort of offense can run circles 
round the mind...  But it has to come back to an act of will, which meets 
its ultimate test far beyond our strength, where we *have* to call on His...

						love
								Andrew

    I was watching Charles Stanley Saturday. He spoke on the topic of
    disappointment and how to respond appropriately to disappointment,
    using the example of Joseph and his initial reaction to discovering
    that Mary was pregnant. 
    
    He stated that a person can be destroyed by great disappointment unless
    he or she looks to God for answers, as Joseph did, and he gave the 
    following eight points to keep in mind when someone disappoints us, to
    guide us in responding in the spirit of forgiveness.
    
    1) Don't be quick to judge the conduct or the seeming conduct of the
       person who has disappointed you.
    
    2) Before making a decision about how to respond, prayerfully seek
       God's will.
    
    3) Trust God's guidance. 
       - It may not be what we want to hear, it may not be rational, but it 
         will always be the right thing. His guidance will always work out 
         His higher purpose for us.
    
    4) Respond in a manner that is best for the other person.
       - Without accusation, without embarrassing the other person privately
         or publicly, and without seeking any kind of revenge.)
    
    5) Look for God's higher purpose in your life.
       - Ask "God, what are you teaching me, what are you saying to me,
         what would you have me learn?" This will help get your eyes off of 
         the other person and dwelling on what they did to you, and on to God. 
         God will respond in the most wonderful affirmative to this seeking.
    
    6) Make decisions on the Holy Spirit's guidance, rather than on the
       opinions of others.
    
    7) Do exactly what God tells you to do.
    
    8) Anticipate a blessing from God in your experience of disappointment.
    
    
    God works His higher purpose in our deepest darkest moments if we
    respond in faith.
    
    
    Rebecca
    

    -1
    
    Excellent!!!! Worth reading again and again... a keeper.
    
    Thanks Rebecca!
    
    

	I somehow see .68 sometimes being forgotten in this file. It's a great
note and one that should be adhered to.



Glen

	Glen,

	Did you *read* .68 ???

	If so, then how could you respond as you did ??

	Karen

	I read it. I understood it. I also wrote what I did to make a point.
Any general statement like the one I made can imply the conference as a whole
is bad, or what have you. Basing comments on facts, not generalizations is what 
is needed in life, in this conference, in anything we do. If we follow what was 
written in .68, I truly believe that the problems in the world will start to 
fade away, one by one. Because then we will be looking at people as people, 
problems as problems. This can go a long way, but because of our human nature, 
I don't feel is something we have even come close to doing as of yet.



Glen

    .72
    
    You were being insulting to the participants in this file.  We have
    guidelines about *personal* insult.. do we need to take it further to
    have guidelines around this as well, Glen?
    
    I think if you look at Karen's message she may have even taken it a
    little personal, as did I....  see Glen if you want others to strive
    for .68, then it starts with you... and me and each INDIVIDUAL,
    pointing fingers specifically at *this* conference is NOT applying .68
    to your own life.
    
    May God Bless you in your search and path towards Him, Glen...
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    Well, I don't know about anybody else, but I am sure my daily dealings
    with other people, with the events that happen in my life, and with my
    interaction with God could be greatly improved by consistently remembering
    and doing the things Rebecca shared in .68.  We all have our failings and 
    limitations ...  Karen, and Nancy, I don't think you should be personally
    offended by Glen's comments.... Glen, you were being speaking in general,
    and being inclusive (including yourself), yes?, no? 

    Leslie 

	Actually, Leslie, I didn't think Glen was being inclusive.

	I felt as though he was saying, "See, you folks need to 
	be more forgiving" ... basically, going against all the
	advice of Rebecca's note...

	mayhaps my sensitivity meter's out of whack today...

    .75
    
    Naw Karen... well, maybe.. but then it would both of ours are out
    today! :-) :-) :-)
    
    

| <<< Note 55.73 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| You were being insulting to the participants in this file. We have guidelines 
| about *personal* insult.. do we need to take it further to have guidelines 
| around this as well, Glen?

	Nancy, thank you for once again blowing things out of proportion. I can
very clearly see why what I wrote came into question in .70, but in .72, I 
answered the question asked. The response talks about my position, which is
based on human nature. Something we all have. So if you REALLY feel the need to
make up more policies, feel free to do so. But base it on reality, not
something that hasn't even happened.

| I think if you look at Karen's message she may have even taken it a little 
| personal, as did I....  

	Nancy, .72 shows that what I was talking about was human nature. And
seeing YOU replied to THAT note, one might wonder what the problem is. 

| see Glen if you want others to strive for .68, then it starts with you... 

	What in .72 made you think it didn't include me?

| and me and each INDIVIDUAL, pointing fingers specifically at *this* conference
| is NOT applying .68 to your own life.

	Nancy, why did you bother to respond to .72 if you never read it? You
will find I talked about this conference, and life PERIOD. You would also find
that I based it on human nature. If you think about it, why would .68 even have
to be put in if we all were perfect? The answer is simple, our human nature
made the need for .68.


Glen

| <<< Note 55.74 by KAHALA::JOHNSON_L "Leslie Ann Johnson" >>>


| Glen, you were being speaking in general, and being inclusive (including 
| yourself), yes?, no?


	Leslie, the answer is yes. I used the word "we" several times in that
note. I also stated that if generalizations were made (.70), that the
conference would look bad. But if "we" based things on facts, things like that
wouldn't happen. But the key word to look for is "we". 

	Thanks for asking, I appreciate it.


Glen

| <<< Note 55.75 by CNTROL::JENNISON "No 'ell" >>>


| Actually, Leslie, I didn't think Glen was being inclusive. I felt as though he
| was saying, "See, you folks need to be more forgiving" ... basically, going 
| against all the advice of Rebecca's note...

	Again, did you or did you not see the word "we" throughout the note? In
your note the word "you" is being used. Those are your words, not mine. If I
mean "you", I'll gladly say the word. If I use the word "we", then it clearly
states that **I** am INCLUDED. 


Glen

    Glen,
    
    It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome... simple and simple.
    
    I've listened to you malign the participants in this conference over
    the last year so many times, I had a very difficult time reading your
    .72 as inclusive of yourself.  You've done everything you can to SET
    YOURSELF apart from this conference other then your participation to
    enlighten us to a "better" gospel.
    
    If you wish to be taken in a different vein, I suppose its my
    responsibility to respond to that knowledge.  Thanks for clarifying,
    perhaps I won't hear that cry of wolf again.
    
    Nancy

	Glen,

	I was responding to .70 initially.  Please show me where you
	said "we".

	As I mentioned, perhaps my sensitivity meter's out of whack.
	I've been reading around in a few other conferences in my
	spare time, and have become very sensitive to your comments
	to my brothers and sisters.  With this in mind, I suppose it
	was difficult for me to give you the benefit of the doubt, here.

	FWIW, if I were to enter a note such as .70, I'd be much clearer 	
	in stating that it applied to me.  Different styles, I'm sure...

	Karen

| <<< Note 55.80 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| It's the boy who cried wolf syndrome... simple and simple.

	You forgot baseless...

| I've listened to you malign the participants in this conference over the last 
| year so many times, I had a very difficult time reading your .72 as inclusive 
| of yourself.  

	Well Nancy, if you mistake the word WE to talk about everyone but 
myself, then was it a perception problem in reading what was written? If so, my
advice to you would be read what is written, and you'd be surprised at what 
happens. If you think something is wrong about something I, or anyone else
wrote, ask questions, don't make statements. Does this make sense? Of course if
it was not a perception problem, please correct me.

| You've done everything you can to SET YOURSELF apart from this conference 
| other then your participation to enlighten us to a "better" gospel.

	Nancy, just read what is written, ask questions if you have them. In
case you haven't noticed, you've gotten all worked up over something that
appears to be nothing. You thought one thing, that turned out to not be the
case. The words themselves clearly show the reality of what I was saying. 

| If you wish to be taken in a different vein, I suppose its my responsibility 
| to respond to that knowledge. Thanks for clarifying,

	I have no problem clarifying Nancy. I just wish you had asked and not
made a bunch of statements about how I was being insulting.

| perhaps I won't hear that cry of wolf again.

	Perhaps you'll start reading the words I write.


Glen

| <<< Note 55.81 by CNTROL::JENNISON "No 'ell" >>>

| I was responding to .70 initially.  Please show me where you said "we".

	Karen, .72 explains .70. .72 is where I said we.

| I've been reading around in a few other conferences in my spare time, and have
| become very sensitive to your comments to my brothers and sisters. With this 
| in mind, I suppose it was difficult for me to give you the benefit of the 
| doubt, here.

	I guess if you had read .72, you would have understood my position. It
would also clear up any benefits you weren't willing to give, as the note
clearly states my position, so no benefit would even be needed. 

| FWIW, if I were to enter a note such as .70, I'd be much clearer in stating 
| that it applied to me.  Different styles, I'm sure...

	Well, I did, but 2 notes later, after it was asked for clarification.


Glen

    .82
    
    Glen,
    
    First off, I didn't get all worked up.. really I didn't.  
    
    And secondly... ahhhh never mind, happy holidays Glen!
    
    

(Amazing.)

    I have a nifty little book with lots of pictures that says
    
    "To Forgive is not to Forget"
    
    "To Forgive is to Remember and Let Go"
    
    
                              Just my 2 cents worth to get out of the
                              beating up on Glen mode.
    
    
                       
                              Patricia

| <<< Note 55.85 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

| (Amazing.)

	That's a great song by Aerosmith. It talks about suicide, and brings
God into the picture. Not something I would have expected from Aerosmith, but
indeed it is a pleasure to hear. (great guitar solo at the end)


Glen

    	It's difficult to overcome a consitent noting-behavior-pattern
    	with a single reply.

| <<< Note 55.88 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "Plucky kind of a kid" >>>



| It's difficult to overcome a consitent noting-behavior-pattern with a single 
| reply.

	Well joe, if you try hard enough and read the words that are shown, ask
questions when you're wondering about what was said, don't make statements
based on generalizations but on facts, and you will probably get over your
consitent noting-behaviour-pattern in no time at all! :-)



Glen

    RE .86  Patricia that is a perfect response to forgiveness. I know some
    may not agree but one can forgive and never forget, its impossible to
    forget,*however* letting go is a decision and that is possible.
    
    Good one!!!  :-)
    
    Sylvain

�    "To Forgive is not to Forget"

�    "To Forgive is to Remember and Let Go"

That is only the beginning of the story.  The 'Remember and Let Go' will
change over time, because all of us are developing and maturing people. For
the one who is determined to forgive, the 'Remember' has to grow fainter
[it is the impressing of self as being more important than the relationship
or the individual] and the 'Let Go' has to grow stronger, until you reach
the point where 'whatever the offense was' has faded into the mists of
time, and is truly forgotten.  A part of the memory one has opted to
exclude.  Only then can it be 'Forgive and Forget'.  It takes the
determination to forgive, to reach the place where it is forgot. 

It's the expression of what Jesus said in the parable of Matthew 18:21-35, 
underlining that any wrongs we consider one to have done another is nothing 
compared to the great Wrong He has forgiven us.

  "LORD, how many times should I forgive my brother when he sins against me? 
   Up to seven times?"
	[He was being magnanimous here.  I think the pharisaic standard was 3]
  "Jesus answered 'I tell you, not seven times, but seventy time seven.'"

[ok folks, that's 489 to go ... ;-] - where the size of the number is meant 
to emphasize how ludicruous actually counting slights is, and to make it 
obvious that counting a grudge in the heart does more significant damage to 
the offended one than any amount of the unintentional blunders scored 
against them.

Against that, a lot of what precipitated this was more reacting to a 
familiar pattern, and learned behaviour.  We have to be so ready to accept 
change that we don't mind being open to being hurt, in order to avoid 
quenching the smoking flax.

 "Love .... keeps no record of wrongs.  Love does not delight in evil but 
  rejoices in the truth...."
					1 Corinthians 13:4...6


						God bless
								Andrew

    Good morning Andrew.  I have a quick question for you in reference to
    this discussion.
    
    Are you saying that it is possible to forgive someone to the point of
    forgetting the offense no matter how far we scan our memory.
    
    What I mean is that I have no problem forgiving anyone at all,
    regardless of the seriousness of the offense. No grudges or ill
    feelings whatsoever. However, it has not been removed from my memory
    nor do I expect it/them to be.
    
    Ex. My wifes "selfish" divorce. Im not angry with her, nor am I
    harboring bitter feelings, yet I will always remember the pain that
    proceeded the act.  Therefore when remembering the pain, the cause
    automatically comes to mind.  Yet I continue to love and I do and have
    forgiven her.
    
    What do you think?
    
    Sylvain

Hello Sylvain,

    ... this isn't where we usually meet ;-)

�    Are you saying that it is possible to forgive someone to the point of
�    forgetting the offense no matter how far we scan our memory.

Probably not, because we are human.  The sort of experience you refer to is 
obviously never going to completely disappear from the memory.  The more 
superficial situation which precipitated this discussion should leave less 
of an impression on us, and could well ultimately be lost in the reality of 
a new situation.

As far as the memory and forgiveness are concerned in - for instance - the
divorce situation, the 'forgetting' part of forgiveness needs to dissociate
blame from the pain memory, so taht one's own heart is clean in attitude in 
that respect.

Only my view; I've never had any significant wrong done to me to forgive, 
so I can't speak from experience here.
    
�    Ex. My wifes "selfish" divorce. Im not angry with her, nor am I
�    harboring bitter feelings, yet I will always remember the pain that
�    proceeded the act.

I believe it's that flushing out of any bitterness that's significant.  The 
pain is a tender sore to warn about that path...

							Andrew

    
    >Only my view; I've never had any significant wrong done to me to
    >forgive,
    >so I can't speak from experience here.
    
    
    	When you can forgive after you have experienced the pain firsthand
    	is when forgiveness has meaning.  Other than that it is only
    	fantasy.

�    	When you can forgive after you have experienced the pain firsthand
�    	is when forgiveness has meaning.  Other than that it is only
�    	fantasy.

Hi Bob,

It's never fantasy.  Everyone experiences the need to forgive at some
level, and however trivial, that 'most' that they experience is their owne
personal biggest hurdle in forgiveness.  It's not a question of forgiving
in imagination the wrongs others suffer, but of ensuring that one's own
heart has only forgiveness. 

						Andrew 

    Andrew,
    
    When God forgives us do you think God also forgets?
    
                                           Patricia

    
    Can one forgive another if it is impossible to "Trust" that individual
    that continually brings an offense or an affliction?
    
    Perhaps it is a level of Trust that can be maintained if the offense
    is acceptable.  But there are some offenses that can not be accepted.
    
    Jesus said, Whoa unto the man that betrays me for it is better that he
    never had been born(paraphrased).  He was speaking of Judas the man but
    it is a level of betrayal that is the reason.  There is a level of
    betrayal that will permanently prevent one from ever trusting that
    individual again.  It is a trip point, a saturation, in which the mind
    will no longer accept justifications or reasons to trust that
    individual.  Does this mean one can not forgive that person.  Yes you
    can forgive that person but that will not alleviate the pain or make
    the memories cease.
    
    Understanding how the human mind functions with belief systems,
    rationalizations, filters, preconceptions, experiential data
    recollection, the low level and high level saturation matrix,
    infrastructure stabilization formats as well as dual foundational
    conflict ratios can make much of what occurs to us in this life
    fall aside as so much static.  
    
    The human mind is not capable of forgetting anything, it is designed
    with permanent indelible retention.  Forgetting has nothing to do with
    forgiveness.  Forgiveness is the ability to "Give as be For".  Lack of
    forgiveness is the practise of placing a wall between us and the
    offender not allowing that individual "IN" to be able to have a target.  
    
    It is a form of self-protection.  Lets face it if someone hurts us to
    open up and allow that person to do it again seems a bit unwise.  Yet
    this is forgiveness.  
    
    The question becomes is it possible to forgive and yet walk away never
    having to have to deal with that person again.  That would be ideal but
    it rarely happens.  It usually becomes an unresolved conflict which
    never seem to leave the mind.
    
    Humans want answers, we want to be RIGHT we need to Understand and we
    need to resolve questions.  But no one is right, we are all wrong and
    only God is Right.  Try having a disagreement with someone when each
    person has the understanding that no one is right.  There will be no
    conflict.  Conflict begins when someone believes they are right and
    they take action.  This action usually results in pain to someone else.
    
    The injured party's mind will begin to look for reasons, answers as to
    why this person hurt them, they may blame themselves or someone or
    something else.  Why? Because blame is an answer and the possesion of
    an answer assists the injured party to believe they are right or
    Righteous.
    
    The afflictor believes they were right so they afflicted the other
    person and they will go through a series of rationalizations and
    justifications to assure themselves that they are right and the action
    they took was correct.
    
    Here is the thing
    
    	If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he
    ought to know.
    					I Corth 8
    
    No one is right everyone is wrong.  Only Christ is Righteous, only He
    is right.  We are righteous because of him, we receive His
    righteousness.  But that does not make us right it proves we are wrong
    and results in this:
    
    	God RESISTS the PROUD and gives GRACE to the HUMBLE.
    
    

    Trust has nothing to do with forgiveness.  They are two separate
    actions that do tend to become entertwined at times.. .but they are not
    one and the same.
    
    I can forgive someone, but not trust them again right away.
    
    

    
     >>Trust has nothing to do with forgiveness. 
    
    
    	What is forgiveness?

    
    >Hi Bob,
    
    >It's never fantasy.  Everyone experiences the need to forgive at some
    >level, and however trivial, that 'most' that they experience is their
    >owne
    >personal biggest hurdle in forgiveness.
    
    
    	To experience the need for forgiveness requires an offense to first
    be inflicted.  We cannot forgive someone when the need to forgive is
    not present.  To say that we would forgive someone if they did this or
    that is a fantasy and can not be proven until one is afflicted with the
    pain of the offense.  No one will experience the need to forgive
    without being offended or afflicted first.
    
    >It's not a question of forgiving
    >in imagination the wrongs others suffer, but of ensuring that one's own
    >heart has only forgiveness.
    
    
    	Based on the note I wrote originally I do not understand what you
    are saying here.
    
    	I do not believe one can posses forgiveness.  Forgiveness is an
    act.  It is manifest in an action.  I have no forgiveness until the
    need arises that all that I am will make the decision to forgive.  My
    heart may have the fundemental element of spirit that enables me to
    love or to forgive but I do not posess it.  It is God.  He is not mine
    I am His.  Will I act according to His character or will a choose an
    alternate foundation from which to launch "whatever".

    Forgiveness is acquiescing blame.
    
    Trust is a different issue...words fail me now to describe this though.

    
     >Of course, that makes forgiveness a totally selfish act!  [:-)
    
    	Absolutely.

RE:         <<< Note 55.97 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

       
   > When God forgives us do you think God also forgets?
    
    

    Yes (I'm not Andrew of course).  



   Jim

Forgiveness declares a person legally "not guilty."  It makes no claim 
of innocence, by the way.  In many cases, as with God's forgiveness, 
this legal declaration is in the form of a PARDON for the offense(s)
committed.

When we are forgiven of God, we are certainly guilty!  But because of
the price paid by Christ on our behalf, we are declared "not guilty by
reason of pardon" when we turn to Him in faith.

Forgiving another person is not different.  You have the power to pardon
someone who has committed offense against you.  That is, you will not
hold the charge against them.

Mark

    Mark,
    
    When God forgives us for an offense, does he also forget it?
    
                                      Patricia

    I'm not Mark, but it was my understanding that he does.
    
    
    dlh

    	Bur *we* are not God.

>    When God forgives us for an offense, does he also forget it?

***   What do the Scriptures say?    ***

*  He will remove our sins away from Him as far as the east from the west.

*  He'll forgive your transgressions and remember them no more;  
   Though your sins be as scarlett, they shall be as white as snow.

My other window is scrolling by with "remember" and other searched so the
above is from memory.  The second one I think is in Isaiah.  Someone
will confirm.

    
   > I agree with Nancy that the trust and forgiveness are two different
   > things.
    
    
    	There was a older gentleman who had befriended a young neighbor
    boy.  The man was retired so he spent much of his time grooming his
    lawn which was splendid.  The young boy enjoyed running and playing on
    the finely manicured lawn and the older man enjoyed the fact that the
    boy received so much satisfaction from playing there.
    
    	One afternoon while the boy was playing he spotted a worm and he
    decided that he would like to go fishing so he ran home and got his
    mothers small garden hand shovel and went digging for the worm.  As a
    result of his quest he had dug many small hole all over the lawn.  When
    the old man had seen what the boy had done he became upset and made the
    boy go home.  Shortly after that the boy came back and apologized to
    the man saying that he was sorry for what he had done.  The old man
    had been out in the yard attempting to repair the damage but it was
    apparent that the attempt was futile.  The wounded landscape would
    never quite be the same.  The old man accepted the boys apology but
    felt it was best if the boy did not play on the lawn any longer.  The
    boy left and was very unhappy.  
    
    	As each day passed the boy and the old man would wave to each other
    and speak from time to time in the drive but it was never the same for
    the young boy.  Eventually the boy grew and took on landscaping as a
    career and to this day he spends his life making peoples lawns a
    beautiful as he can but he never seems to forget the old man. 

    re .112 And the moral of the story is....?
    
    Not only does God give us the freedom and ability to forgive others, but He
    also gives us the ability to forgive ourselves.  Romans 8:1 says that
    there is no condemnation in Christ Jesus.  If we are feeling condemned
    then its not coming from God, but from the deceiver.  God will CONVICT
    us of sin (He also convicts us of our righteousness in Him, by the way)
    but that is to get us to turn back to Him, not to punish us for the rest of
    our lives.  There is valid guilt and there is false guilt.  Once we have 
    confessed our sin and turned back to dependance on our Father, then any 
    more guilt about that action becomes false guilt (the guilt has already 
    served its purpose).  
    
    None of us has done anything to deserve God's forgiveness, but He sent
    His Son to become sin for us, that we might become His righteousness (2
    Cor 5:21).  I have dug up many a whole in our heavenly Father's yard,
    but yet He still loves me, forgives me, and is patient with me to
    behave like who He has already made me in reality.  Not only that, but He
    still desires for me to come and have an intimate walk with Him in His 
    yard. His love for us is beyond comprehension.  We are to forgive others in
    the same manner as we have been forgiven.  If we don't, we're only hurting 
    ourselves by harboring bitterness.  We can't do that in our own power,
    however, but only by allowing Him to live through us (Gal 2:20, 
    Rom 6:6-7,11-13).
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    
    >re .112 And the moral of the story is....?
    
    
    	Let each person find the moral of the story as they see it.
    
    	

    Earlier on the question was posed to define forgiveness.  There have
    been some good definitions but I thought I'd throw one more into the
    pot.
    
    One of the Greek words for forgive is APOLUO.  It is a form of the
    Greek word LUO which means to loose or to remove the bonds.  By adding
    the prefix APO it means to loose utterly or completely.  Eveyone, I'm
    sure, is familiar with the account of Jesus raising Lazarus from the
    dead so I'll not recount the entire event but after Lazarus came forth
    out of the tomb Jesus turned to his disciples (who by this time were
    probably having a party) and told them to loose him from the bonds of
    his graveclothes.  Lazarus was wrapped in linen and his face was
    covered with a cloth.  Even though the one who is the Resurrection and
    the Life spoke new life into Lazarus the disciples had to remove the
    graveclothes.  The word used here for loose is LUO.  Now I know that
    the story of Lazarus is not about forgiveness per se but the use of the
    word gave me a pretty strong impression of what forgiveness (APOLUO) is
    about.  It's about releasing the person from their bonds removing the
    hinderances to their functioning as a spiritual being.  Jesus said that
    whoevers sins you remit (forgive) shall be remitted in heaven and
    whoevers sins you retain (unforgive) shall be retained in heaven.  I
    believe that unforgiveness causes a block in that person's life which
    keeps them from proper fellowship with God.  The act of forgiveness
    is giving up our right to exact justice for an apparent wrong done to
    us.  When God forgives He chooses to forget, not because He has a lousy
    memory but because as far as He is concerned it has no bearing on our
    relationship to Him any longer.  We, as humans, will never be able to
    forget completely nor let the offense in some way taint our life but we
    can choose to minimize the bearing it has on our relationship to that
    person and to God.

Good, Kent... thanks.  Appreciated that.  I believe that the remission and
retention refers to 'in the heavenlies', rather than 'in heaven', 
indicating that this is the perception in the spiritual realm.

In the gospels, unforgiveness is hit very hard.  It's an important block.


							Andrew

>    God will CONVICT
>    us of sin (He also convicts us of our righteousness in Him, by the way)
>    but that is to get us to turn back to Him, not to punish us for the rest of
>    our lives.

Just a comment and not a criticism about the use of the words convict and
convince.  We sometimes use them interchangeably.  As in "I have a firm
conviction, so I am convicted of the truth."  Similarly, "I feel convicted
of sin."

The Holy Spirit convinces men of sin; causes them to know the truth of
it.  We stand convicted - under sentence of the wages of sin.  It is a 
state of being rather than a state of knowing.  When we are convinced of
our depravity (God's initiative, Calvinists take note of this Wesleyan
who is saying this), we know the truth and must choose (you Wesleyans can
now breathe a sigh or relief).

Thank God for PARDON from sin and a peace that endureth.
Thine own dear blessings to cheer and to guide.
Strength for today, and bright hope for tomorrow.
Blessings, all mine, with ten thousand beside.

Okay, okay.  I don't break out into song all that often in notes, but it fit.

Mark

    	re moral of story:
    
    	(Great story, BTW)  I really don't know what the moral is, but
    	I would think that the old man is now smiling upon the boy's 
    	chosen profession.  The boy carries a piece of the man in his heart.

    Regret comes to mind as I read this story.  It's more about regret and
    consequences.
    
    There are consequences to our behavior.  When we sin forgiven doesn't
    mean that we are completely relieved of the consequence.  Sometimes it
    does as in eternal salvation.  But God also created a law in human man
    that renders consequences.
    
    Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you.
    
    Be not deceived God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall
    he also reap [in this temporal life].
    
    

    The moral may be the same as regards the prodigal child parable.
    
    Which child was actually the prodigal child?
    
    What was the greater sin?
    
    Digging wholes in the yard or destroying a precious relationship!
    
    Perhaps the boys chosing to go into landscaping shows his forgiveness
    of his older friend!
    
                                  Patricia

>    Which child was actually the prodigal child?

Just an aside.

"Prodigal" means wasteful and, like "Trinity," is a label.

(Going back before the story by the way, Patricia, do you think God forgets?)

What I like about the lesson of the prodigal son is the reaction of the
father to the brother who stayed at home.  On the one hand, we have a son
who takes his inheritance and squanders it in the far country.  On the
other hand we have a son who doesn't take the benefits of sonship. 

Luke 15:31 shows the father telling the son, "All that I have is yours!"

Sometimes, I've felt like the prodigal son's brother, but I'm going to
take the father at his word and exercise the benefits and rights of sonship.

Mark

    By the way, it is a wonderful story.  It is like the parables that
    Jesus tells.
    
    The story is open ended and there is no one right answer.
    
    It confronts and challenges all conventional wisdom in that there is no
    one right answer.  Each one of us brings ourselve to the story and gets
    the answer we need.
    
                                    Patricia

| <<< Note 55.122 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>



| I don't think God forgets.

	I agree Patricia.

| I was hoping I could get a straight answer on the question though.

	Guess I won't answer then. I wouldn't want ya to laugh! :-)

>    I don't think God forgets.
>    
>    I was hoping I could get a straight answer on the question though.
    
I thought by answering with Scripture, it was as straight as you could get.
I believe that God intentionally forgets because He says He does.
That's simple and straight and backed up by Scripture.

It's okay that you don't think so, but the perception isn't borne out
by Scripture.  I also know that the Devil reminds us of our failures and
some people think that God is recalling it.  But then God wouldn't be
true to His Word, which He is.  The Devil is the accuser and uses past
failings to defeat God's children.  We may have trouble intentionally
forgetting and because of this, we have a hard time thinking that God
could intentionally forget, but then He's God and we're not.

Mark   

    God intentionally forgetting is sort of like creating that rock too
    heavy for him to pick up!  
    
    Patricia

    I just read a chapter in "Victory Over the Darkness" by Neil Anderson
    today (it's only taking me about 2 months to read it 8^) ).  Anyway the
    chapter is called "Healing Emotional Wounds from Your Past" and deals
    with forgiveness.  I thought it might be appropriate to include some of
    it here.  His definition of forgiveness:  "Forgiving is not forgetting. 
    People who try to forgive by forgetting offenses suffered usually fail
    on both counts.  We often say that God has forgotten our sins (Heb
    10:17).  But God is omniscient, so even He cannot forget.  Rather, He
    separates Himself from our confessed and forgiven sin by determining
    never to use it against us (Psa. 103:13).  You can forgive without
    forgetting.
    	Forgiveness does not mean that you must tolerate sin. [Mr. Anderson
    gives an example]  No, forgiving someone doesn't mean that you must be
    a doormat to their continual sin....It's okay to forgive another's past
    sins and, at the same time, take a stand against future
    sins....Forgiveness does not demand revenge or repayment for offenses
    suffered...Forgiveness means resolving to live with the consequences of
    another person's sin.  In reality, you will have to live with the
    consequences of the offender's sin whether you forgive him or not.
    	You may say, "I can't forgive this person because he hurt me so
    badly."  Yes, the pain is real.  Nobody has really forgiven someone
    without ackowledging the hurt and the hatred which are involved.  But
    until you forgive that person he will continue to hurt you because you
    have not released yourself from the past.  Forgiveness is the only way
    to stop the pain."
    
    Mr. Anderson then lists 12 steps to walk through the process of
    forgiving someone who hurt you in the past.  If anyone is interested,
    let me know and I will post.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    
    Bing
    
    
    

�         <<< Note 55.108 by POWDML::FLANAGAN "I feel therefore I am" >>>

�    When God forgives us for an offense, does he also forget it?
    
I'm not Mark today, but as you're hoping for an answer, I'll take a stab at 
it ;-)

We have various things to contend with in considering this which, on the 
face of it seem incompatible.

God is all knowing.  He is eternal and unchanging.  He should - by all our 
measurements - be incapable of forgetting anything.  

 "Does He Who implanted the ear not hear?
    Does He Who formed the eye not see?
      ....Does He Who teaches man lack knowledge?
  The LORD knows the thoughts of man...." 
						Psalm 94:11  

    "I the LORD do not change..."		Malachi 3:6

- but there again, He is inconsistent with evil, or any unrighteousness :

  "...O LORD....Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate 
   wrong."

In resolving these, I believe that we have to be aware that we are temporal 
creatures, while God is eternal.  He sees our temporal sins as passing 
things which can be neutralised (by Jesus' blood on Calvary).  To Him, the 
sinfulness in which we dwell here is totally visible - more so than to us, 
who are limited by the physical senses...

 "If we had .... [committed sins] .... would not God have discovered it, 
  since He knows the secrets of the heart."

There is an answer in Isaiah which resolves these :

 "I, even I am He Who blots out your transgressions, for My own sake, and 
  remembers your sins no more."
						Isaiah 43:25

God, the eternal, the immutable, sees our sins as something separate from 
us.  When we are cleansed from them, they no longer exist.  They are not 
part of eternity, part of 'the real us'.

�    When God forgives us for an offense, does he also forget it?

He has cancelled it out so that it no longer exists.  If it did exist, He 
could not open heaven to us.  If it does not exist, He can scarcely hold it 
in remembrance against us.

This is the heavenly reality which is what He can give to those who accept 
sanctification by the LORD Jesus.  The final fulfillment is in 1 John 3:2 :
 "When He appears we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is."

It is because we know that this is our fulfillment, that we, yearning for
it, find our satisfaction in striving to be pure like He is pure.
(paraphrasing v 3). 

The cancellation of sin from time is a big thing, even for the eternal God.
This is why it is so terrible to spurn His sacrifice, and act as though our
own pseudo-righteousness were adequate.  It may well be superior (in our
eyes) to the outward righteousness, even of people who are trusting in
Jesus' blood, and are therefore part of the battle.  But it still cannot
start to compare with the righteousness and perfect standard of God, Who
wants to bestow His perfection upon us, even though its fulfillment
necessarily only appears when our lives here are completed. 

I don't feel very articulate tonight - it's evening here in the UK - but I 
hope that I've managed to convey something of what gives a total assurance 
and peace to my own heart, knowing that my God knows my every sin, and has 
really cancelled it out totally for eternity.  Beyond my feeble grasp, but 
well within my Father's.

						In Jesus' love
								Andrew

Sorry - I forgot to mention where a couple of references came from :

  "...O LORD....Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate 
   wrong."
							Habakkuk 1:13

 "If we had .... [committed sins] .... would not God have discovered it, 
  since He knows the secrets of the heart."
							Psalm 44:20..21

						Andrew

>    God intentionally forgetting is sort of like creating that rock too
>    heavy for him to pick up!  

Cute, but I don't see a correlation.  .128 sums it up very nicely, I thought.
I hope you'll see that "blotting out" is something that God can do.
It misses the mark to limit God with our time-constrained limitations.

Is God on a time line?  In other words, is He progressing through history
along with us?  Does He get older and older?  If the answers to these
are no, then what is remembering and forgetting?  One can remember
"the future" as well as "the past" if one is outside of time.  Forgetting
(or blotting out) is in the same concept.

Mark

"I Forgive You, Mother" -- Robert Bruce, Herald of Holiness, May 1995

I have never really known my real mother.  She left our family when we
were small.  We would see her from time to time, but eventually she
stopped coming altogether.  Several years later, we heard that she died
of complications caused by alcoholism.  My two younger sisters and I had
lived with our father, who was devoted to us and loved us.  He dedicated
every spare minute to us, and you know it wasn't easy for a single
parent to hold a job and raise three young children.

While I was in seminary at Chandler School of Theology, I did a
quarter's residency as a chaplain at Emory Hosptial in Atlanta.  We had
daily evaluation sessions, and one day we were sharing about the
importance of family in our lives.  As the discussions moved around the
group, touching and moving stories were being shared about mothers and
how important each was.

When it came my turn, I had to admit that my mother did not play a large
part in my life and that I really didn't care to remember much about
her.  The memories I did have were very painful to tell.  One occurred
when I was very young.  As a preschooler, I was playing with matches in
our backyard and set a vacant lot on fire.  As punishment, my mother
burned the ends of all my fingers with the match until they blistered.

I remembered another time when she had run away, my father had taken us
with him to go find her and bring her back to the family.  After he
talked her into getting into the car with the family, on the way home,
she jumped out of the moving car.  The picture of her rolling down the
embankment of the two-lane highway is imprinted in my mind and is as
painful as if it just happened yesterday.  I remember my mother getting
back in the car all scratched, bloody, and dirty, and I remember feeling
so alone and frightened.

At that point in my story, some students in the group were crying and so
was I.  But then I remembered something that happened when I was very
young, about 5 years old.  We were living with relatives in Indiana
while my father was in school, and I remembered my mother playing the
piano at a gathering.  I'll never forget how everyone stood around her
in awe while she played and how her long, graceful hands went up and
down the keys in a melodic ecstacy.  Later, when I began my musical
studies at age 13, some of my relatives said that I inherited my musical
abilities from her.  I went on to receive numerous piano scholarships
for college and graduated with a degree in music before going on to
seminary.

This didn't mean much to me until that day in the hospital when my
superior observed the beauty of the situation.  The very person who had
deserted our family when we most needed her, who abused me by burning my
fingers, and who caused our family untold pain was the very one
responsible for the most precious gift I had... my music.

Though my mother had passed away, I reconciled with her that cold, rainy
day at Emory Hospital in Atlanta, Georgia, and I learned that eve as
much as I wanted to forget my mother, God wanted me to forgive her and
be thankful for her.  In spite of the painful memories I had associates
with my mother, I must acknowledge her, thank her, and love her for the
gift she unknowingly shared with me -- the gift of music.  I forgive
you, Mother.

    One has asked me how an abuse survivor forgives their abusers,
    especially parental ones.  
    
    Whether or not you've been abused as a child each person reading
    probably has had to forgive someone in their lives who weren't
    repentent for their actions.  Can you share your beliefs about
    forgiveness?

    
    Yes, I can share my experience about forgiveness of my earthly father
    (though I'm not sure it is actually forgiveness).
    
    My father does not know what love is.  He traded my (and my siblings')
    youth for philandering and the pursuit of selfish interests.  He
    provided for us materially and he disciplined us consistently (and
    mostly fairly) but he never showed true love toward me.  I was terribly
    resentful of this as a young adult.  After Jesus saved me I began to
    understand my dad more and more and why he is the way he is.  I also
    began to understand myself and why I am the way I am (to a degree only
    of course).  I felt compelled to forgive my father but it is really
    impossible in my mind to forgive those who are not repentent and who
    never confess their need to be forgiven.  It is not forgiveness per say
    that I have experienced for my dad but overlooking his faults and his
    failures.  I have forgotten the injustice of it all and no longer
    harbor resentment or ill feelings toward him for what he did and didn't
    do.  Jesus and the life I now have overshadows all of that stuff so as to 
    make it inconsequential.  This is true freedom!  I now love my father
    even though he still can't love me back in any really meaningful way. 
    But I honor him and I pray for him (most importantly).  It's pretty
    awesome to know that you are the only person on the earth praying for 
    someone.
    
    I reserve forgiveness for those desiring to be forgiven, which I give
    freely.  By God's grace I overlook the faults and offenses of those who
    are unrepentent and ignorant of love.
    
    jeff
    

    Jeff, my Brother,

    I must admit to experiencing some difficulty with this...

>    I reserve forgiveness for those desiring to be forgiven, which I give
>    freely.  By God's grace I overlook the faults and offenses of those who

    I immediately think of "Father, forgive us our sins in the same manner
    we forgive those who have sinned against us" Mt6:12 (paraphrased).

    I was forgiven *before* (long before) I sought forgiveness. So were
    you.

    I dunno - I just have difficulties.

    God Bless you my Brother,

			    Harry

	Nancy,

>> Whether or not you've been abused as a child each person reading
>> probably has had to forgive someone in their lives who weren't
>> repentent for their actions.  Can you share your beliefs about
>> forgiveness?

	...and forgive us (me) our (my) trespasses, as we (I) forgive
those who trespass against us (me)...

	That about sums up my beliefs about forgiveness.  I'm just
awfully glad that God sees fit to forgive me for all of the wrongs
I've done, and that makes it easy (and imperative) for me to forgive
any wrongs that others may do to me.

	I guess Jeff's point may be that forgiveness can be offered,
but isn't fully *given* until it is fully *received and accepted*.

						FWIW,
						Bob Sampson

Hi,

I could not be who I am today unless my Lord Jesus died for me. We are all
agreed on that, however Romans 8 tells us:

"..while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

I knew nothing about Jesus, his ways and his love and yet he still died for me,
he still wanted me, there was hope, not in my actions, but in his actions. If
there is a person that I cannot or will not forgive, Jesus died for them too and
he wants them and loves as much as he loves me. If my Lord can forgive me then I
should be able to forgive that person as they are no worse than I was before
Jesus saved me. This is what the parable of the "unmerciful servant" is about in
Matthew 18:

  27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him,
and forgave him the debt.
  28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which
owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the
throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

Can I face my God after he has forgiven me my debt and then say to him, "what
about so and so they own me......"

The important thing to remember is that while we are not forgiving we are
judging and the Lord tells us that "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be
judged". 

To summarise, Luke 6:37 "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and
ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven"

These are not different things these are the same from different sides, to judge
is not to forgive, to forgive is not to condem.

God bles you all,

PS. I have encluded Luke 6:32-38 for further reading....


Luke 6,

  32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also
love those that love them.
  33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for
sinners also do even the same.
  34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for
sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
  35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again;
and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest:
for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
  36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
  37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be
condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
  38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and
shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the
same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

	Jeff,

	I was just reading back through this topic.  There's some
	great stuff in here!

	I'd like to point out 55.49 in response to your note about
	your father.

	I can understand your feelings on the subject, but can't
	find scriptural support for them.
	
	Karen

	Yesterday's Focus on the Family broadcast was a talk
	by Dr. Archibald Hart.  The topic was resentment.

	There was so much good stuff in there, I need to get the
	tape so I can review it frequently.  It's a must have for
	my library!

	Some of the key points:

	when someone has hurt us, one of the first steps to letting
	go of resentment is to try to put the hurt they have caused
	us next to the hurts we have caused God - kind of puts things
	in perspective, no ?

	Forgiveness is giving up the right to retaliate for the wrongs
	done to us.

	Karen

God gave me a fresh vision that my father and my mother was loved before 
the foundation of the world, that the "so loved" included them.  And 
that He is their judge.  And only through believing that God is 
righteous and just can I forgive them, which is in essence handing them 
over to God for judgement.  Most of us confuse forgiveness 
with absolution.  This is the crux of unforgiveness for many.
    
    Early on in this discussion I asked the question what if you're not
    asked for forgiveness?  Can you give what hasn't been asked for... and
    the answer is an unequivocable YES!  For Christ died without our
    asking.  If we were to use Christ as an example for our lives, then we
    would die to self to allow others to live.  For by losing our lives, we
    gain enternity.  
    
    I believe that unforgiveness is pride.
    
    
    

Yesterday's entry in "God Calling" speaks directly to forgiveness:

   Self dethroned - that is the lesson, but in its place put Love for
   Me, knowledge of Me.

   Self, not only dethroned but dead.  A dead self is not an imprisoned
   self.  An imprisoned self is more potent to harm.  In all training-
   (in Mine of you and in yours of others) - let self die.

   But in each  blow to the life of self you must at the same time embrace
   and hold fast to the new Life, Life with Me.

   It is not a dead self that men have to fear, but a thwarted, captive,
   imprisoned self.  That self is infinitely more self-centered than a self
   allowed full play.  But to you, my children, I teach a higher
   science-law than even freedom of the self.  I teach death to the self.
   No repressions, just death.  Petty self-life exchanged for Divine Life.

   And now I can make more clear to you what I would say to you about
   forgiveness of injuries.  It is one of My commands that as you seek My
   forgiveness, so you must forgive.

   But what you do not see is that you, the self in you, can never forgive
   injuries.  The very thought of them means self in the foreground, then
   the injury, instead of appearing less, appears greater.

   No, My children, as all true Love is *of* God, and *is* God, so all true
   forgiveness is of God and is God.  The self cannot forgive. Kill self.

   Cease trying to forgive those who fretted or wronged you.  It is a
   mistake to think about it.  Aim at killing the self now - in your daily
   life, and then, and not until then, you will find that there is nothing
   that even remembers injury, because the only one injured, the self, is
   dead.

   As long as it recurs to your mind you deceive yourself if you think
   it forgiven.  Forgiving injuries can be one way of feeding a self-life.

   Many deceive themselves in this.

I'm not quite with them on "Cease trying to forgive," we need to try to
forgive while we are still being transformed into Christ's likeness.  But the
essence of this is right on.  Our focus needs to be on being transformed into
Christ's likeness, on exchanging our inherently resentful and unforgiving
natural self for the Loving and Forgiving self of Christ living in us, rather
than on white-knuckling it through 'forgiveness.'

Paul

God doesn't just promise to forgive our sins, He promises to forget them.  I
think we had this discussion before of whether God actually forgets.  It's
hard to picture an omnipotent God forgetting things.  But however it works,
He chooses to no longer know about our sins.  Jer 31:34: "For I will forgive
their wickedness, and I will remember their sin no more."  Also Is 43:25, Ps
103:12, and Heb 8:12.

There was a great story in a book I read this week about the completeness of
God's forgiveness.  There was a time of ministry in a church, and God was
working powerfully in prophecy through one man.  There were three pastors and
their wives being prayed over, and without knowing them this man, through
God's revelation, spoke about their past, about their current struggles, and
then gave prophecies of what God was planning in their future.  This was all
done publicly, with the whole church praying and listening.

When he got to the last person, one of the wives, he began to speak about her
past, and then stopped.  He said "There is a very serious sin in your past."
The woman blanched, sure that her worst fears had come upon her.  Her sin was
now going to be exposed before this whole congregation.  The man continued:
"I asked God what this sin was, and God replied 'I don't remember.'"

The woman received a great healing and release.  She had never been able to
really believe that God would forgive that sin, she had repented and agonized
over it countless times, yet still was unable to accept God's forgiveness.
But knowing that God had not only forgiven it, but forgotten it, she was
finally able to accept His forgiveness.

Have we *forgotten* the sins against us?

Paul

Amen to that Paul,

>>I think we had this discussion before of whether God actually forgets. 

If the dicussion has been had before then I don't want to start it up again,
however the key is the difference between forgetting and refusing to remember.

Which ever way you look at it God's action (or inaction!) is wonderful, love
only sees good. We ALL need God to refuse to remember about our past.

>>Have we *forgotten* the sins against us?

This sometimes can be the most difficult thing to do. It is a strange situation,
a person could be quite willing and able to forgive other people, except when
that other person is themselves! If I were God I would not forgive me! This is
almost as bad as not forgiving someone else, it is parallel to saying "if I were
God I would not forgive so and so" and we are back full circle!


Thanks for that note Paul.

    
    I looked up the word "forgive":
    
    forgive.  1. to give up resentment against or the desire to punish;
    stop being angry with; pardon  2. to give up all claim to punish or
    exact penalty for (and offense); overlook  3. to cancel or remit (a
    debt).
    
    Apparently I am a very forgiving person toward my father.  All of the
    elements in the above definition are included in my entry or are at
    least included in my thoughts behind the entry.  Sometimes we forgive,
    apparantly, without the offender being repentant and sometimes we
    forgive when an offender is repentant.  
    
    jeff

    I was subjected to years of emotional and physical abuse as a child. 
    My father was a violent drunk and my mother was too intimidated to do
    anything about it.  It was one of the major reasons why I left home
    when I was 17.  Those last few years before I left, months would go by
    without my father and I speaking a word to each other.  Lots of
    bitterness and hate were built up.  I won't go into more detail, but I
    think you get the picture that this wasn't a very good environment.
    
    However, this story has a happy ending.  My father finally quit
    drinking while I was away and he accepted Christ as his Savior a few
    years later.  Yet I was still cautious whenever I had the rare
    opportunity to see him.  When I finally knew he was a changed person, I
    was finally able to forgive him - something that meant a lot to him and
    promoted healing.  Today we have a great relationship and we've
    recovered most of what was lost.
    
    I'm not sure why, but forgiving my mother was more difficult and didn't
    occur until within the last year.  I was harboring some bitterness for
    lack of protection and the guilt finally got to me.  It was surprising
    how well it was received, as if she suspected it.  She wept over my
    forgiveness!  The healing has started between us too.
    
    I've said this before in here, but sometimes you just have to forgive
    others so that God can work in your life and lift you up.  Even if the
    offending party isn't aware of what happened, we often have to let His
    light shine through us.  It's not easy to do, but the blessings from
    the Father are awesome.  The burden has been lifted and I feel I'm
    finally over some of the baggage that comes with abusive environments.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    .144
    
    Amen and Amen!

    
    Well I can only echo what's already been said here albeit from a
    slightly different perspective.  My dad worked in psychiatrics.  This
    is an industry where they really counsel you on placing the blame
    and dragging up all kinds of things from your past.  But Dad always
    came at it from another angle - a Christian perspective of forgiveness.
    My Dad called himself a Phillipians man.  And when we used to talk
    about this issue he always went to Phillipians.  I was just glancing
    at Chapter 2 and can see why.  It is very hard to be of one mind and
    consider others better than yourselves when you're holding a grudge,
    if not impossible.  Could hanging onto hostility bring another even
    one step closer to Christ?  Doubtful.  I believe as Dad did that
    forgiveness is healing to yourself and not just the other person.
    
    I also thought of the prodigal son.  His father did not wait till he
    asked for forgiveness.  He had already forgiven him when he was a
    long way off.  This was a humble man who so completely loved his son.
    I don't think that humility can coexist with unforgiveness.
    
    However, I will add that there are times we may forgive others but for
    our own well-being do not need to expose ourselves to their continued
    abuse.  Also we cannot forget that just because we have forgiven or
    been forgiven that there may well still be consequences for our
    actions.  Indeed a reading about King David would give us all a 
    reminder of that.
    
    Jill