Conference yukon::christian_v7

POA - personal opinion alert

Jesus told the story, but not out of lack of humility but for
the purpose of fulfilling scripture or showing the fulfillment of
prophecy.  Was Jesus being humble when he declared "I am the Way,
the Truth and the Life.  No man comes to the Father but by Me." ?

I'd like us to think about what humility really is, because I do not
think Jesus was being proud, even in this bold declaration: "I and the
Father are One."

The other option was a revelation by the Holy Spirit, but I would sooner
believe that Jesus had a pow-wow with his twelve friends.  After all,
Jesus told Peter, "Satan has asked to sift you like wheat, but I have prayed
for you."  So it is not inconceivable that Jesus also related the story
of events that took place in his desert fast.

(As for John the Baptist - I have to check the chronology of events to
find out when John was imprisoned.  Besides, if John was there and witnessed
these events, I wonder if he would have asked "Is Jesus the Christ or shall
we wait for another to come?")

Mark

Re: 46.1 by TOKNOW::METCALFE
    
>  Besides, if John was there and witnessed
>  these events, I wonder if he would have asked "Is Jesus the Christ or shall
>  we wait for another to come?")
    
    Yet, in John 1, John looked on Jesus and said "Behold the Lamb of
    God....  This is He...."  My personal suspicion was that the question
    was actually conveyed not for the sake of John the Baptist, but for
    John's disciples who were sent to pose the question.  (I don't agree
    with those who think that while he was imprisoned, John began to have
    doubts.)
    
    Mark L. (sorry for the diversion from the main topic)

Where Scripture is silent on something, we must be careful in conjecture, 
not to go beyond what is given, because we can be biased by so many 
external influences, and need to be on our defence spiritually.

However, we are told that Jesus taught His disciples things which went 
beyond what they could then understand (particularly about the crucifixion 
and resurrection), and they were certainly aware of demonic warfare.

�    Did Jesus tell his disciples about his victory over the devil in such 
�    detail ? This doesn't sound like what a humble person like Jesus would do. 

I think the problem here may lie in presupposing *how* Jesus told them 
about this event.  the conflict with humility presupposes that He would be
boasting.  However, possibly His teaching to the disciples on fasting went
deeper than that given to the crowds in Matthew 6:16-18.  Or even Matthew 
17:21.  Fasting is an area of definite spiritual warfare, and when you move 
into that area, you can expect the enemy to raise his opposition.  Could 
Jesus not have told the disciples "Setting aside the appetites of the flesh 
for a while to plead before the Throne brings you into close conflict with 
satan.  he will then be liable to attack through the lust of the eyes, the 
lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, as from the beginning.  On 
entering my ministry he assaulted me with these temptations from..."

I'm not trying to say "it happened this way"; that's the danger of probing 
where we are not told.  I'm just trying to say there are many ways it could 
have happened, and we can't rule them out because of our own limitations.  
Remember, Jesus was tempted in every way - just as we are- yet without sin 
(Hebrews 4:15).  And without pride, in either the achievement or in the 
telling.  And I think that's something it's hard for us to understand - 
no vestige of prideful sin tainting our achievements....  So He *could* 
have told them.  Equally, these passages *could* have been recorded by pure 
revelation, though I do not personally think that was how God operated in
this instance.

							God bless
								Andrew

    Interesting question (and answers). I always just assumed that the
    stories showed up in the Gospels the same way certain other no-witness
    stories made it there - the Holy Spirit.
    
    Consider some similar questions:
    	How did Moses know what happened "in the beginning"?
    	How did Isaiah know about the fall of Lucifer?
    
    	BD�

Hi Barry,

I think some of these would be direct Holy Spirit inspiration (or 
revelation), but there are also other sources which might 'include' 
revelation, while not being totally inspired Scripture.  For instance, the 
Book of Enoch.  The volume we have today is very suspect in areas, 
obviously tampered with by later sources.  However, it contains the odd 
fragment, like the quote in Jude 14-15, which, by it's inclusion in Jude,
must have been itself inspired.  What did God talk about to Enoch, in 
Genesis 5:22-24?  I doubt if they were dumb in their walk, even if their 
communication went deeper than words.  And I suspect it went beyond the 
weather (even the rain included in the long-term weather forecast;-).

When Moses was on the mountain, he was given such details of the tabernacle
that he could check it out precisely for approval after it was all made. To
me, the repetition of 'as the LORD commanded Moses' (Exodus
39:1,5,7,21,25,31,32), the almost anxious inspection of Exodus 39:42-43, 
and the pointer of Hebrews 8:5 indicates that Moses wasn't checking 
dimensions against a plan, but checking that what he now saw made on earth 
corresponded precisely to a heavenly reality which God had revealed to him.

�    	How did Isaiah know about the fall of Lucifer?
Isaiah is such a powerful book!  Consider the millennial revelations it
contains, in chapters 11 and 65-66, the Messianic revelations in so very
many places....  Even the revelation about lucifer, as you mention in
chapter 14...  How did he cope with everyday life, after walking so close
to the eternal, immutable God...?  Barry, that guy just *had* to have
walked with the LORD pretty much like Enoch- keyed in by his confession and
volunteering in chapter 6.  Only his burden wasn't to describe his walk but
to pass on what he heard. 

There are other interesting places, where we hear what went on behind 
closed doors.  For instance, in Acts 4, Peter and John were hauled up 
before the Sanhedrin to give their defence, but are turned out while their 
case is discussed (:15).  However, the passage continues to record exactly 
what the decision was...  Who spilled the beans?  I believe it is clear 
here that there were some on the council who's hearts were convicted, and 
who joined the disciples; they could be open to share what transpired in the
discussions.  A good candidate appears to be Gamaliel (cf his direct quote 
in a similar situation in Acts 5:34), but he need not have been the only 
one.  I find most exciting the mercy of God as displayed in Acts 6:7, where 
'a large number of priests became obedient to the faith', and I wonder how 
many of them were going about the business of preparing the sacrifice, when
the curtain before the Most Holy Place was torn in half (Matthew 27:51),
opening the way.... Hebrews 10:19-22 

					He is love indeed...
								Andrew

    Well, this is why it is foolish to take the Bible literally. The
    Story of creation is  allegorical and not necessarily fact. In fact
    the  first two books of Genesis were not written until five hundred
    years after the following books. This would mean that the author of the
    first two had the following committed to memory before he even began to
    write. 

    As far as the temptation goes, the Dead Sea Scrolls  have teachings
    in them that are the same as the Sermon on the Mount. The Essenian sp?
    sect which dwell in the desert, are thought to have contributed  some
    writings of the Scrolls. The Essenians we know were Jewish hierarchy
    that broke away from the temple in Jerusalem because they believed
    that the leaders had lost the true spirit of their faith. Were the 
    Essenians followers of John the Baptist or teachers of John the Baptist? 
    Did Jesus  stay with them in while in the desert and the temptation
    story came from those of them who became his followers ?  Only
    speculation here, but the more I learn about the human side of Jesus,
    that being he was more like us than we realize, except he was without
    sin, the more I'am awed by Him. It took a truly divine person of great
    love to do what he did, especially being he had all the human limitations 
    we have.

    Written inspiration is for teaching concepts of faith or morality and
    need not be factual. So although the lessons in Scripture are without error,
    as historical fact, many times they are. The story of the temptation is 
    true as a lesson if it was merely inspired. If it is historically correct,
    then someone had to be a witness to it and I don't believe  the apostles 
    were nor did Jesus convey what happened to them. I think if he did, the 
    writers would have written the story as quoted by Jesus. 

    IMHO of course.
        Jim

>    Well, this is why it is foolish to take the Bible literally. The
>    Story of creation is  allegorical and not necessarily fact.

Two declarative statements that are an [in]subtantiable as opposing
declarative statements.

>    In fact
>    the  first two books of Genesis were not written until five hundred
>    years after the following books. This would mean that the author of the
>    first two had the following committed to memory before he even began to
>    write. 

Or have it dictated.  Either way, what is the problem?

>    Only
>    speculation here, but the more I learn about the human side of Jesus,
>    that being he was more like us than we realize, except he was without
>    sin, the more I'am awed by Him. It took a truly divine person of great
>    love to do what he did, especially being he had all the human limitations 
>    we have.

I'm with you here.

>    Written inspiration is for teaching concepts of faith or morality and
>    need not be factual.

Nor does it preclude the possibility that they COULD BE factual.

>    So although the lessons in Scripture are without error,
>    as historical fact, many times they are. The story of the temptation is 
>    true as a lesson if it was merely inspired.

True enough.

>    If it is historically correct,
>    then someone had to be a witness to it and I don't believe  the apostles 
>    were nor did Jesus convey what happened to them. I think if he did, the 
>    writers would have written the story as quoted by Jesus.

An opinion like the other who have speculated.  I believe Jesus told them
what happened in the desert.  The story may have been related rather
than saying "Jesus said, 'this is what happened to me in the desert.'"
In relating the story, the writer says, "This is what happened to Jesus
in the desert."

>    IMHO of course.

Of course!  :-)  Thanks for that added clarity.

Mark

      Hi Jim,
    
        My heart said "amen" when I read your beautiful thoughts on
        the humanity of Christ.  If it is realized that the sinful
        flesh does not include the mind, rather is a terrible source
        of temptation TO THE MIND and a source of temptation which 
        Christ out of love for us "took" well might we say with greater
        wonder "How great Thou art!"
    
        Consider Romans 7:13-24 as an experience which Christ also 
        'took'.  He grew in wisdom and stature and as He saw God's love
        in deeper light, that combination of the "commandment coming"
        (God's love seen in greater depth) and the flesh saying "YOU are 
        that sinner" (as sinfulness is revealed in greater depth by God's
        love) was an experience Jesus took in order to be our Example.
    
        Its amazing.
    
                                                   Thanks,
    
                                                   Tony

    (46.4)  I tend to agree with you!