| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 38.1 | | CNTROL::JENNISON | Jesus, the Gift that keeps on giving! | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:13 | 8 |
|
I read "What to do when the wine runs out of your marriage" by
Mark Timberlake (?) some time ago. I found it quick and interesting
reading, but more suitable for the Christian Man. It may have
been better if he and his wife had collaborated on the book, showing
both sides of the marriage.
Any other recommendations ?
|
| 38.2 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:21 | 2 |
| _Intended for Pleasure_ -Ed and Gaye Wheat
Don't have the publisher handy.
|
| 38.3 | The Act of Marriage | JUPITR::DJOHNSON | Great is His Faithfulness | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:26 | 4 |
| The Act of Marriage by Tim and Beverly LaHaye (sp?). It was provided
for us during pre-marital counseling by our pastor. Well worth it.
Dave
|
| 38.4 | Biblical roles in Marriage (Part 1) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:31 | 87 |
| Biblical Roles in Marriage
Sunday, July 1, 1990
1 Diagramming the Biblical Marriage
The lesson book I have diagrams several types of marriage:
Pass out the diagram sheets to the class
o The Traditional Male Dominated Marriage ^
/M\
Male Triangle up over Female Triangle down -----
\F/
V
For those of you who think you know that this best reflects my mar-
riage, I would suggest that you do not know Joy and I well enough.
And if I am not to be easily believed, corner Joy someday and ask
her.
The traditional male dominated marriage is often the type of mar-
riage some interpret the Bible to espouse. However, as we shall soon
see, the Bible does not put one or the other into superior or in-
ferior roles. In this model the husband rules the roost and the wife's
sole duty is to obey.
o The Egalitarian Marriage
^ ^
Triangles side by side both up /M\ /F\
---------
The abuses of the traditional marriage are rejected by feminism which
proposes the egalitarian model where each person has equal authority.
While this sounds good on the outside, what the model really es-
pouses is that all roles, tasks and functions can be divided equally
and are considered interchangeable. Differences in male and female
sexuality are down-played and are seen as incidental expect for the
obvious biological functions.
The issue in this marriage is how to maintain individual rights at the
highest level for both partners. This marriage attempts to cut the
cake exactly down the middle, and if one perceives the other to get
a few more crumbs, they cry foul.
-------
o The Egalitarian Submissive Marriage \M/ \F/
V V
Triangles side by side both down
Christian feminist (if this is not an oxymoron) propose the same
type of equality in mutual submission. And while the Bible does call
for mutual submission, this marriage model ignores the unique qual-
ities each gender brings to the relationship.
o Biblical Model for Marriage /\
\--/--\--/
Male Triangle up merged with Female Triangle down \/ \/
/\ MF /\
/--\--/__\
\/
The biblical role for marriage occurs much earlier than what we read
in Ephesians 5. Marriage is an entity that creates a new being when
two people become one flesh.
The sexuality of men and women is different and creates a beauti-
ful interplay of initiation and response between them. Together,
these different and complimentary aspects of maleness and female-
ness are the image of God in human form.
The hardest part people have with this model of marriage is the au-
thority of the husband over the wife. Scripture defines the head-
ship as being leadership grounded in sacrificial love not of dom-
ination.
Likewise, people have trouble with the wife submitting herself to
her husband but this in now way is a position of weakness or in-
feriority. It is a glad and voluntary submission to the husband's
initiating love.
Christ is the perfect example of submissiveness to the initiating
love of His father and it is Christ that Paul uses as the model that
Husbands should use in loving their wives.
The unity between a man and woman celebrates the equality and the unique-
ness of being a husband or wife: the common humanity and the distinct
sexuality. There are roles we each share and others which we do not
because we were created to compliment each other.
|
| 38.5 | Part 2 (last) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:32 | 98 |
| 2 Authority
People, Americans in particular, have trouble with authority. We have
not lived under a monarch for over 200 hundred years so we really have
no point of reference there.
Since Paul uses Christ as the model for husbandly authority, let's see
what Jesus had to say about authority. Open your Bibles to Mark 10:35-
45; focus on verse 42.
James and John, thinking Jesus to be the head of the organization, ask
for places near the top. Jesus follows their line of thinking and then
turns it by saying those places are already filled. The others get wind
of the request and get indignant (because they didn't think of it first).
Jesus calls them all together like a father speaking to bickering chil-
dren.
He then points out in no uncertain terms that the authority structure
in the Kingdom of God is ordered differently than the structure of the
world:
Show the overhead on Biblical Authority
* The rulers of the world lord it over their subjects.
* The mark of leadership in the Kingdom of God is servanthood.
* The Kingdom leader must be willing to be last.
* Christ's life is an example for authority in the Kingdom. Jesus gave
up everything to be servant of all.
And very often we limit Jesus' sacrifice to his death on the cross.
But indeed he gave up his glory in heaven to become one of us to save
us!
3 The Roles
Read Ephesians 5:21-33.
Paul begins this section with mutual submission. The behavior of mu-
tual submission can be found just a few verses earlier in Ephesians
4:32.
The Wife
Paul next addresses wives submitting to their husbands. Remember that
the submission to authority for Christians is voluntary, and based on
his loving sacrifice on our behalf. Christ's headship is healing, for-
giving, and life giving; not dominating.
So Paul is saying that submission to her husband is not a submission
to a headship of dominance, nor is the wife's submission unqualified.
As a loving husband gives himself to his wife, his wife is to be sub-
ject to her giving husband.
The Husband
Paul says to love your wife as Christ loved the church. We have seen
how Christ loved the church; note that Jesus gave himself for the sin-
ful world and did not wait for a purified church. Jesus submitted him-
self to the Father and was a servant to humanity. So we are to sub-
mit ourselves to the Father and be servants to our wives. This is the
authority we should have in our homes.
The authority and submission of the husband and wife are qualified by
the demands of loving servanthood that right relationship in Christ
places upon our marriages.
4 An Antiquated Ideal?
Ephesians 5 is in danger of being replaced in the name of cultural ob-
solescence. Ephesians 5 is not a cultural ideal although some things
have changed in the Bible due to changing values. Peter changed our
dietary habits, for one example. Another example lies in the sacri-
ficial system that was replaced by Christ, once for all. These were
steps away from the physical expressions into the spiritual expres-
sions of purity (or holiness) towards God. It is not what goes into
man that makes him unclean but what comes out of man. Acts of sacri-
fice did not please God as much as righteousness.
Ephesians 5 also steps away from the culture (and physical expression)
of that time. The command to husbands is to love with a love that im-
itates Christ's love. Wives are to submit as unto the Lord. These are
not cultural ideals but spiritual ideals. And before you take an edit-
ing pen to the Bible, consider first what the meaning and reasons are
behind a passage that doesn't quite fit today's American society.
o What does it mean to be submissive *as unto the Lord*?
o What are the *implications* and *responsibilities* of being the head
of the wife?
o What does it mean to love *as Christ loved* the Church?
o Why don't people seek God's mind on these Scriptures, instead of
dismissing what doesn't fit into their lifestyle?
[
|
| 38.6 | Affair-proof your marriage (1989 - Part 1 of 3) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:39 | 91 |
| Affair-Proof Your Marriage
Sunday, May 28, 1989
Lowell First Church of the Nazarene
Mark Metcalfe, Teaching
Today's lesson is about marriage and keeping it sacred. Statistics show
that most of you in the class who are not married will be married some-
day. For those of you who get married, half of you will not stay mar-
ried; or so go the current marriage statistics. Some marriages will
also experience the pain of an extra-marital affair.
We all think we know why marriages fail, or a least we think we know
some of the reasons. But we need to verbalize these thoughts and per-
haps consider some things we might not be aware of. This lesson ap-
plies to people who are married, people who intend to get married some-
day, people who deal with married people, and then just people.
For now, think a minute with me and choose the word that best describes
you [parents'] marriage:
Firecracker
Roaring Fire
Dying Ember
Yo-yo
Dead end
One way street
Roller coaster
Well-worn shoe
Anyone like to reveal their word?
1 Why Do Marriages Fail?
I want to look into some of the reasons that cause troubled marriages
and affairs to occur. I also want to look at some of the things we can
do to guard against these forces that lead us into trouble. I also want
to look at the things that will enhance our marital relationship.
Q. Why do you think some married people violate their marriage vows
and become involved with someone other than their spouse? How would
you prioritze this list?
__ love has died
__ mate is no longer physically attractive (someone more attractive)
__ mate spends too much time away from home
__ no longer have the same interests
__ seduced
__ living out a fantasy
__ revenge
__ suspicion that the mate is unfaithful
__ mate is boring
__ mate has lost interest in you
__ other:
Many people call "involvement with someone other than your spouse" an
affair. We dress up the language so that it is easier to deal with.
God calls it adultery and has made a commandment against adultery.
2 The Effects of an Affair
Q. What effects can adultery have on your life?
o It can make life exciting-secret rendezvous-heightened sex life -
make you feel important
o It can ruin a relationship with your spouse forever-trust is gone-
companionship and friendship is jeopardized -
o It can ruin a relationship with your parents, in-laws, and chil-
dren
o It can cause incredible guilt-you may never be able to forgive your-
self
o It might ruin your relationship with your co-workers
o It might cause you great financial difficulty-alimony-child support-
maintaining an affair has its own costs
o One incident lasting a hour can affect and adversly change your life
completely.
|
| 38.7 | Part 2 of 3 | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:41 | 86 |
| o See Proverbs 6:32-35
PROVERBS 6:32-35
A man who commits adultery lacks judgment; whoever does so de-
stroys himself. Blows and disgrace are his lot, and his shame will
never be wiped away; for jealousy arouses a husband's fury, and
he will show no mercy when he takes revenge. He will not accept
any compensation; he will refues the bribe, however great it is.
3 Ways to Protect Marriage
Now that we've looked at some of the dire consequences that most likely
come from violating one's marriage vows, let's consider what we can
do to protect our marriages, in the present for those of us who are
married, and in the future for those of us who will be married.
1. Forgive the past.
My father once counselled a man who was married to his third wife.
He felt guilty about his divorces and was considering divorcing his
current wife and attempt to reconcile his marriage to his first wife.
This was wrong for several reasons. By divorcing his third wife,
he would commit a sin against her. To remarry your divorced wife
was forbidden in the Levitcal law; it was considered an abomina-
tion. The first wife was since remarried and she would also have
to divorce (which she probably wasn't willing to do).
There are other reasons but this is not a lesson on divorce but a
lesson against affairs that can lead to divorce. Forgive the past
and don't make the mistake of a divorce.
If you have been divorced and remarried, do not dispair. You have
not committed the unpardonable sin. You must be forgiven and live
a life for Christ from where He picked you up. (Be careful not to
presume on God. "God forgives, so I'll divorce now and be forgiven
later." This kind of presumption can be very dangerous to your eter-
nal health.)
2. Do not compare your marriage to other marriages.
On page 70 of your student book, the author warns against compar-
ing your marriage to other marriages. You can tend to glamorize the
other marriage and become disappointed in your own. Your marriage
is unique; as unique as any two people can be.
3. Do not compare your spouse to another person.
This is even more dangerous than comparing marriages. Q. Do you find
people, other than your spouse, attractive? I do. There are some
women I find very attractive.
Q. What do you think is the greatest danger to making comparisons?
I get into danger and trouble if I begin to favorably compare other
women to my wife. For starters, it causes dissatisfaction with one's
spouse ("Why can't George be like him; if only he'd..."). It also
becomes warped in our minds and we fantasize that the other per-
son is perfect in every detail; certainly compared to the mundane
spouse we have.
I have thought it funny to think of TV model, georgeous women hav-
ing grating personalities. Can I generalize and say that beauti-
ful people get preferred treatment a lot-therefore they become spoiled
people and as a result often are not givers in loving but takers
only?
4. Avoid compromising situations.
The author lists a male psychologist that avoids scheduling female
patients at the end of the day. A minister who keeps the person on
the other side of the desk and the drapes open. (My father won't
counsel a woman unless the secretary is right in the next room.)
A make doctor won;t examine a female patient without a female nurse
there.
Refuse to be alone in the workplace after hours with someone and
refuse to take your work out to dinner. Such places are not con-
ducive to work and are conducive to play.
When husbands and wives are apart, don't make compromising plans
to help the one who is alone. Ensure that another person is present
if you want to help out. Some people say that "Absense makes the
heart grow fonder." Other say that "Absense makes the fond heart
wander."
|
| 38.8 | Part 3 of 3 (end) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:42 | 109 |
| 5. Avoid negative models.
The author places soap operas on his hit list of negative models.
He claims "It is impossible to build a great marriage and be a devo-
tee of soap operas.
What do you think of this charge? Soap operas do portray extra-marital
affairs among the characters (95% of the time). Very often, the tragic
circumstances within the legitimate marriage is such that we find
ourselves rooting for the true lovers, who are not married to each
other. What is worse then is that we begin to agree with the rea-
sons these characters give to justify their affairs and it becomes
an adopted value. "It is okay to cheat on your husband in this case-
it won't hurt anyone if no one finds out - this is a one-time shot
and then I am faithful for life." These are all very bad lies.
4 Ways to Improve Marriage
So far, we have examined some of the causes of infidelity and some ways
to avoid putting ourselves into tempting situations. (We do put our-
selves into them most of the time.)
Now let us look at some of the positive actions that we can do to affair-
proof our marriage. Let's start by asking this question:
Q. When was the last time you...
o Complimented your spouse?
o Said, "I love you," to your spouse?
o Spent time alone, talking together?
o Asked for your spouses opinion on an important issue?
o Spontaneoulsy planned to do something unusual?
Q. What are some other things you can list that would be a positive
reinforcement for your marriage?
Q. If you could improve your marriage in one area, what would it be?
What have you done to make that improvement happen?
Q. What advice would you give a son or daughter who is about to get
married? What would you tell them how to build a strong married?
o He has to like himself
o He has to like you more than he likes himself
o ?
5 Place Action Above Feeling
Do you let your feelings rule your actions? If you let your feelings
rule your actions...
You wouldn't have a job much longer.
You wouldn't have clean clothes.
Your grass would grow very long.
While it is nice to have our feelings and our actions in step with each
other, it is not always the case, nor do they have to go together as
we all well know. We go to work even though we'd rather go to the beach;
we make the dinner even though we'd rather eat out.
Love is not different than these other responsibilities in a sense.
Yes, intense feelings can be associated with love. But love is doing
what is best for the one you love; love is making the dinner to feed
the family; love is going to work to put the food on the table; love
is doing.
Read the near-divorce case on pages 78-79. The author claims, "We do
not do what we do because we feel the way we feel. We feel the way we
feel because we do what we do." Do you agree or disagree with the au-
thor?
The author also says, "Love is an art to be learned and a discipline
to be practiced." Do you agree or disagree with the author?
Feelings are important, and we should be sensitive to them. However,
feelings are also fragile, unstable, and unreliable. Do not let love
rely on them alone.
6 Summary
1. Understand some of the reasons why some marriage fail-then avoid
them.
2. Realize the disaterous and tragic effects that an affair can have
on your whole life-then run away from it.
3. Protect your marriage
o Forgive the past, build in the future
o Do not compare your marriage to another marriage
o Do not compare your spouse to another person (real or imagined)
o Avoid compromising situations
o Avoid negative models
4. Improve your marriage-Look for ways to make your mate so dependent
on your love and then do it. Sink the hook deep and keep them on
the line. Have new affairs with your spouse. Actively pursue a closer
relationship with your lover, your mate, your companion.
[end of lesson]
|
| 38.9 | Dr. Crabb's Books | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Wed Mar 03 1993 12:58 | 6 |
| The Marriage Builder, by Dr. Larry Crabb
and
Men and Women, Enjoying the Differences, By Dr. Larry Crabbe
Both are excellent.
|
| 38.10 | Keeping In Touch With Your Mate (1990 Part 1 of 4) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 13:04 | 112 |
| Keeping in Touch With Your Mate
Sunday, July 8, 1990
Lowell First Church of the Nazarene
Metcalfe, Teaching
Last week we talked about the Biblical model for marriage summed up
in the phrase, the two shall become one flesh; that being united in
purpose, love, and spirit.
Bill Cosby asked someone in the audience if he was married and how long?
the man replied "three years." Bill Cosby asked, "and you're still hold-
ing hands?"
He asked another older man who responded that he was married 35 years.
Bill then asked, "Where's your wife?"
It might be a good exercise to copy your vows onto a poster and post
it at work or on your refrigerator. Remember the part where is says,
"till death us do part?"
Christianity is alarmed at the divorce rate and shocked that the church's
rate is not much better. But instead of telling people to hold on tena-
ciously to a dull marriage, we should be telling people of the riches
of fulfilling relationships.
o I need to remind you that each marriage is unique unto itself. I
am not trying to say that your marriage must be just like mine or
anyone else's. God made us unique and that uniqueness is blended
into the unique character of your marriage.
o What I am trying to say is that if you make God the foundation on
which your marriage will stand and put him first, if husbands will
submit themselves to the LORD first and then they will love their
wives as Christ loved the church as the Spirit of God loves through
them; and if wives will submit themselves to the LORD first, sub-
mission to a sacrificial-loving husband is not a problem.
o Allan Douglas pinned me down last week asking who had the ultimate
decision-making authority. I said, "the husband." However, too of-
ten we focus on "what ifs" and not enough on what it means to love
as Christ loved, or submitting as unto the Lord. The question of
this kind of authority almost never comes up.
I also said that 99.9% of our decision-making was done jointly and
Joy had input 100% of the time. Remember the authority model of ser-
vanthood in Mark 10:35-45 that Jesus gave us. The authority the hus-
band has as the head is not to lord it over the wife.
o Husband and wife are one and the same-one flesh; and yet they are
individuals, each bring unique qualities to the relationship. As
such, you should seek ways to nurture your relationship. Building
up your mate also builds you up.
In a world that tells you to become independent and self-sufficient,
the Bible asks you to become dependent on your mate. (Note that this
is NOT saying to create a dependence in your spouse. Like vines that
twist and lace together, so you and your spouse should grow together;
not apart or in a parasite/host relationship.
1 Communication - Keeping in Touch
As individuals, we sometimes come into conflict in our relationships.
A marriage founded in Christ will minimize these events and communi-
cation is an integral part of a growing, vibrant and lively relation-
ship.
Paul also says, "Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths,
but only what is helpful in building others up according to their needs,
that it may benefit those who listen." (Ephesians 4:29)
All relationships and marriages have some difficulty in communication,
but the best marriage situations are those in which both the husband
and wife are willing to work at improving their communication skills.
NOTE
My father has a saying that "the biggest room in our home is the
room for improvement."
I have observed several types of arguments:
o The Spiral Argument-Something starts off this round of fighting,
often something that has little to do with the root of the prob-
lem, and it spirals downward, drifting through one subject after
another until it degenerates into hurtful jabs, breaking off only
when someone leaves.
o The Circular Argument-Something starts this logical debate attempt-
ing to prove a point but the exchange turns out to be one trying
to out-maneuver the other; getting the right to say I was right.
Sometimes the same ground is covered several times in the vain at-
tempt that quantity adds validity. Someone is looking to "win" this
argument because each is convinced that right in on their side.
o The Double-one-sided argument-This is where each party is out to
score the win, instead of paying attention what the other is try-
ing to say. This is largely due to a failure in listening, which
we will discuss a little later.
o The Flashback argument-This type of argument dredges up old dirt
and is a sign of an unforgiving spirit.
We'll discuss the negative tactics of each of these argument styles
during our class.
Many counselors today would say that failure of communication is the
number one cause of unhappiness in marriage. Failure of communication
in a marriage or any relationship is not only not talking to each other.
Communicating negatively is a failure and is destructive.
We need to ensure that our communication lines are open and designed
to build others' self-esteem and communicate the loving care we have
for them.
|
| 38.11 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 13:05 | 94 |
| Let's identify the communication killers. Sometimes, knowing what not
to do is as important as knowing what to do.
NOTE
First off, I do not want you pointing at your spouse if there are
things in here that reflect his or her tactics; that is consid-
ered an attack and isn't helpful in bringing you closer together.
Pointing at yourself is allowed, however. When we recognize some
of these negative traits in ourselves, we can move to correct our
short-comings.
2 Verbal Communication Killers
o Attack Words
- Accusations
An accusation is when you pass judgment on someone. "Yup. That's
him all right." "You did that to embarrass me." This kind of com-
ment makes the other person immediately defensive. Defensive and
offensive posturing is the last thing you want; you're supposed
to be on the same team, not opposite sides.
- Demeaning comments
"I might have expected as much from you." This takes a notch out
of your mate and is a sure way to drive a wedge between you.
- Sarcasm
Little jokes and jabs with an edge can be more hurtful than com-
ing out and saying what you think (not that I am advocating this,
if your thoughts are destructive). I grew up in a family of rapier-
tongued people and it isn't easy to sheath the sword. In proverbs,
the poet laments, "Who can tame the tongue?"
Learn to control your tongue and you will be wise. It says that
too.
Sarcasm is a destructive communication.
- Name-calling
There may be certain pet names that we know will irritate our
mate. Try to eliminate these from your vocabulary.
o Silence-an underrated force, at times. Silence can be one of the
deadliest killers of a relationship.
Silence is sometimes used as a barrier not to enter into a sensi-
tive discussion about In-laws, sex, money problems. It can be used
to withdraw from the responsibilities of partnership. Refusal to
talk about such sensitive things, as understandable as it is, has
the effect of stopping the growth of the marriage in its tracks.
Many couples need the help of professional counselors to enter into
these areas of sensitivity; the refusal to seek help is often the
first step to irreconcilable differences.
Silence is sometimes used because of a person's unwillingness to
verbalize the words, "I'm sorry." "She knows I didn't mean it. She
knows how sorry I am by my actions; I'm not pursuing the fight any-
more."
Remember our roles as mates are to be submissive to one another,
being vulnerable to each other so that we become closer and closer.
"I'm sorry. I was wrong to treat you in this manner. I was way out
of line to call you that." These words go a long way towards bring
you together. (Remember that your spouse may react with a lash, but
do not respond in like fashion. Be the first to rush to your spouse
in love and contrition.)
o Rationalization
The inability to admit when you are wrong often leads to a ratio-
nalization pattern. This kind of person, who has a strong need to
be right, will always come up with some excuse for his behavior.
This is not a Christlike response, and short-circuits open dialogue
between mates.
o Correction
"No, it was mid-November, not early December." I get caught in this
one because details are important to me. There have been times when
I have bit my lip but not as often as I should have. I'm working
on not using this in fights. The book calls this majoring on the
minors.
"I told you so," is a real good thing to endear yourself to your
mate. This type of correction is like a mother or father scolding
a child. No matter how childish your mate acts-and we all do at times-
that child is your mate. You need to keep this in mind and treat
your mate with respect as being part of your flesh.
|
| 38.12 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 13:07 | 71 |
| o Excessive Talking (noise)
Dominating a conversation is not a conversation-its a lecture.
Dialogue is a give and take; speaking and listening. And be care-
ful to listen to what your mate is saying. Sometimes, some people's
idea of listening is pausing long enough to formulate the next line
of argument, not understanding what your spouse is trying to com-
municate to you; they can't wait for their mate to get done to blurt
out their next pearl of wisdom.
o Other
- Using abstract words as a dominance technique (one I employ my-
self, at times; language is a power weapon or tool.)
- Jumping to finish your spouse's sentence is another annoyance.
- Changing the subject.
- Monotone dialogue communicating disinterest or indifference.
- Uncontrolled yelling or nagging
- Using absolutes like "You'll never..." or "You always..."
With such an arsenal at our disposal, how will we ever survive a mar-
riage? Half of the world doesn't. Some of us who do survive the mar-
riage relationship barely survive it. God designed marriage to be rich
and fulfilling.
3 Non-Verbal Communication Killers
But wait, verbal communication is still only part of the arsenal.
o Facial expressions
Pretending not to hear, pretending to sleep with the other is try-
ing to talk to you, putting on false expressions like smiling when
you are really hurting, are all nonverbal communication killers.
Be certain to express interest, willingness, and openness.
o Avoiding eye contact
Avoiding eye contact is a barrier to communication. The eyes can
tell a lot about what a person is thinking.
To use your eyes in a constructive way, try some exercises like look-
ing into your mate's eyes for a full minute. Afterward, talk over
the messages you received about what your mate was thinking and feel-
ing.
It might make you uncomfortable, but it shouldn't - remember, when
two become one flesh, everything is and should be open and avail-
able to the other.
o Avoiding physical contact
Your refusal to touch or allow yourself to be touched during a con-
flict dialogue will be a hindrance to the resolution of the con-
flict.
Sincere touch opens the communication lines and breaks down the bar-
riers. When you were dating, you couldn't keep your hands off of
her. I'm not asking if the touch is the same, but do you still touch
each other? Hold hands? Walk arm in arm?
Mechanical touches diminish your relationship. Your touches must
clearly be sincere.
|
| 38.13 | Part 4 of 4 (end) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 13:07 | 58 |
| 4 What Can Be (Positively) Done?
o Recognize that you and your mate are on the same side. You are dis-
agreeing about an issue but issues are not relationships, and your
relationship to your spouse comes before any issue about sex, money
or In-Laws.
o When you discuss something, face each other, hold hands, and look
each other in the eyes. With such close contact, tempers might be
held in check; conflict is held to a minimum.
All this is designed to disarm the arsenal of weapons each of you
possess for unfair combat. Take the initiative to disarm yourself
and refuse to pick them up. A soft answer turneth away wrath. How
many times must I forgive? How much should you love?
o Ask what the purpose of the conflict is. Too often, tempers flare
over things like a bad night's sleep (grumpiness) and little things
blow way out of proportion. When an argument gets out of hand, it
is not out of line to say, "Wait a minute. What's the issue, here,
anyway?"
o Get the annoyances out of the way in a positive manner. What I mean
here is to throw away the little darts you've been saving in the
event of the Big Fight. All too often we judge who was right by who
has the least mud left on them after everything in the past is dredged
up and flung at the one we're suppose to love unconditionally.
o Forgive the past. This goes along with the one I just used. This
is not simply not using the past. Forgiveness is an act of the will;
it must be done, not simply understood between you.
o TOUCH your mate. We were made sexual beings and the touch of a hand
to hand ought to feel good. Soothe, tenderness, calm, excite, care,
heal, mend, love; your touches should reflect these words.
We need to be touched by those who love us. Communication is so much
more than words from the mouth or penned on paper. Rest your hands
on your wife's shoulders and tell her how much you love the smell
of her, the feel of her; put your hand on your husbands arm when
you're sitting togather.
If you touch your mate only during sex, then you have been miss-
ing some of the sweet moments the enrich and deepen your relation-
ship.
Most importantly, Give your marriage relationship to the One who de-
signed it. Most of the suggestions here apply to secular and holy mar-
riages and relationships. God adds a dimension that enables you to tran-
scend the joys of a relationship into the rapture of holy matrimony.
The Two shall become One flesh!
God has given us a beautiful gift. Do not take it for granted and don't
abuse its privileges. Use it, love it, cherish it, honor it, submit
to it, until death separates you
You may now kiss your bride.
[end of lesson]
|
| 38.15 | | SAHQ::BAILEYS | | Wed Mar 03 1993 13:49 | 2 |
| Married Without Masks by Nancy Groom
|
| 38.16 | LOVE | ELMAGO::RWRIGHT | Press On! | Wed Mar 03 1993 15:12 | 4 |
| L isten
O verlook
V alue
E ncourage
|
| 38.17 | Christian sexuality | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 16:10 | 96 |
| The following is taken from a note in the prior version of this conference.
It speaks of a problem in marriage that is sensitive:
================================================================================
Note 864.22 Christian Sexuality 22 of 27
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 89 lines 9-AUG-1991 15:09
-< [The lack of] Sex is sometimes only a symptom of a deeper problem >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I dealt with another situation that started out as a problem with
a huge gap between the sexual desires of the mates. Usually, we think that
means *He* wants the intimacy (and other related plasures) but she's not
interested. In the case I am about to relate to you, the opposite is true.
Before there are jokes about this, it is a serious matter. Scratching the
surface, sex and intimacy were merely symptoms of far deeper problem
of extremely low self-esteem (on the male's part) and depression.
Depression does not permit any sharing (which is what sex should be) and
can only focus on self (in self-pity or self-disdain). Depression also
seeks to isolate oneself, out of feelings of worthlessness, which can exhibit
itself in behavior that drives people away (snide and cutting remarks being
one of the weapons employed as a tool to do so). The mate receiving these
barbs feels unloved and undesirable and is prone to snap back out of hurt.
Friends are simply turned off and away but the mate has no such escape.
Losing friendships and retaliating reinforces the male's belief of
worthlessness and the spiral downward is perpetuated.
Sex is one of the first things to go in the relationship and will be
one of the last things to return. For a healthy marital realtionship
to return, the spiral must be halted and the arduous and difficult climb
out must be begun.
I relate a story I am told to be true: A woman met with her counsellor
and told him she hated her husband. And she meant *hate*. Nothing the
counsellor said dissuaded her. Finally the counsellor offered her the
greatest weapon of hatred to her. Did she really want to hurt him badly?
She said she did. The cousellor offered this advice:
"For then next 60 days, tell him you love him and do everything you can for
him. Even and especially when you don't feel it, say it and do it. And
when the 60 days are up, pull the rug out from under him and tell him
it was all an act; that you didn't mean it and then tell him how much
you hate him. That will cause him the most hurt you can possibly give him."
The woman agreed to the challenge because she felt she really wanted to
hurt him badly and so she embarked on this program.
At first, there was little response from the husband but it didn't take long
to see the husband respond positively to the constant acts and verbalizations
of love - and more importantly, the woman began to realize and recognize that
what started out as an act and a lie, was becoming her true love and passion
for her husband. She began to doubt her hate and believe that she really
loved him. (Pray for your enemies... you cannot hate someone you earnestly
and constantly pray for. The Lord will change the person you hate, the
situation between you, or *most likely* you heart in the matter and your
hate will turn to love. - just a side note.)
The counselor asked her after the 60 days about telling her husband off
and letting the hatred take its full vengence. She related the new life
they found.
With my friend, I asked when the last time she said "I love you." to her
mate. She responded "a week ago and he laughed" (scoffed). My friend's
esteem has been battered and her own depression is an enemy to healing.
With God's help, she needs to recognize that her mate is not pushing her
away because SHE is unlovely or unattractive, but becauce HE feels unlovely,
unattractive and worthless. When she can love herself again, she can also
love her husband despite the barbs he'll throw.
And here is where one of the major Christian paradoxes comes in: the more
she gives of herself, the more she will receive. The more she will give
her love by her actions and by her verbalizing love (even when she doesn't
particularly *feel* it), the more she will get reutrned to her. He may
scoff but she needs to say, "That hurts me badly, but it still doesn't
change the fact that I love you." It may be that he will begin to believe
one time out of thirty, but if only once, then the spiral upward has begun
and the ratio of actions/verbalization to belief will come down. (And
action cannot be without verbalization and verbalization cannot be without
action. It needs to be said and it needs to be done.
We all know that love and sex are not synonyms, as the world would have
us believe, although they can be intertwined beautifully. Love transcends
the daily and ordinary living. Love exists during the clashes of opinion,
the routine, and the busy, as well as the sensual and romantic. But I
wax off on a tangent.
Pray with me for my friend, please, and for those marriages that are being
divided by the devil. For my friends, that the gloom of depression and
its related complexities will be dealt with by the Comforter; that they
will refound their marriage as the trilogy it should be with Christ at
the head. That the healing of the physical deprivation follow and be
completed by the healing of their spiritual and emotional deprivation.
And for us all, that we remember that we become great by being
a servant, that we become loved by loving, that we become wealthy by
giving, that we become forgiven by forgiving others, including our mates.
|
| 38.18 | And more "Christian Sexuality" from the past... | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 03 1993 16:11 | 97 |
| ================================================================================
Note 864.25 Christian Sexuality 25 of 27
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 24 lines 20-AUG-1991 09:01
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rothel, thank you for sharing your sensitive and personal experiences.
Sexual abuse is Abuse first and foremost and has little to nothing to
do with sex. My heart aches to read of your trauma and is enraged by
the malicious acts of some toward others.
I do wish to speak to Christian marriages. The couple referred to in
.22 is in need of Spiritual healing before anything else. It greives me
to no end to even begin to imagine what some people have endured.
Relationships within the context of "christianity" (in quotes on purpose
because labels do not always make it so) are often difficult enough to heal.
While on vacation, my father-in-law had abook in his home called
"Intended for Pleasure" by Ed and Gaye Wheats ($12.95). I had time
only to read a chapter and skim through the rest. I will be purchasing
or ordering this book at the Christian book store. It speaks to the
love relationship between Christian Mates and deals with topics very
clearly and plainly. The inside cover suggested it would be a good
wedding shower gift; (I think it might, except I will read it cover
to cover first to be sure, and perhaps give it in private, not with a
crowd around - but it was excellent, what I read of it).
This book would not help the situation Rothel touched on. But I am very
glad you have found some who does help you and heals you. Abusive marriages
are another sensitive and important topic that I cannot begin to address.
================================================================================
Note 864.26 Christian Sexuality 26 of 27
TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" 65 lines 26-SEP-1991 13:45
-< Within marriage - some excerpts >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts from "Intended for Pleasure" by Ed and Gaye Wheat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
You have God's permission to enjoy sex within your marriage. He invented sex;
he thought it up to begin with. You can learn to enjoy it, and husbands, you
can develop a thrilling, happy marriage with "the wife of your youth."
The ancient counsel given by father to son, based upon the wisdom of God in
Proverbs 5:18; 19, comes across just as clearly to the reader today: "Let your
fountain [your body parts which produce life] be blessed, and rejoice [or
ecstatically delight] with the wife of your youth... Let her breasts satisfy
you at all times, and be ravished [or filled] always with her love."
It may surprise some of you to learn that the Bible speaks so openly, so
joyously, of sex in marriage.
.
.
.
But not until He had created man and woman did God call for our attention with
"Behold, it was *very* good."
With so many "good" things in the Garden and on earth, only one thing was *not
good*: "And the Lord God said, It is not good that man should be alone; I will
make a helpmate for him" (Genesis 2:18). In those few words God taught us that
for man there is no substitute, no alternative plan, no better companion than
his wife. The void which originally was caused by taking "bone of my bone,
flesh of my flesh" can be filled only by the presence of woman. Since part of
Adam went to make Eve, a man remains incomplete without his Eve.
..."Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave
untio his wife; and they shall be one flesh. (Genesis 2:24). God had first
divided the woman fromthe man when He made Eve. But now He commands them to
be joined together again as one flesh. In this brief counseling session, even
before any sin and its resulting selfishness had entered the human race, we
find three basic commands:
First, when we marry, we should stop being dependent on our parents
or our in-laws. We are to become completely dependent on our mates
to satisfy *all* our needs.
Second, the man is the one responsible for holding the marriage
together by "cleaving" to his wife. Cleaving in this sense means
to be welded inseperably, so that each becomes a part of the other.
Therefore, the man is to be totally committed to his one wife.
Third, we are commanded to be joined together in sexual union, to be on flesh.
.
.
.
As a matter of fact, the sex relationship in marriage receives such emphasis in
the Scriptures that we begin to see it was meant not only to be a wonderful,
continuing experience for the husband and wife, but it was also intended to
show us something even more wonderful about God and His relationship with us.
Ephesians 5:31, 32 spells it out: "For this cause shall a man leave his father
and mother, shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church." *Thus
the properly and lovingly executed and mutually satisfying sexual union is
God's way of demonstrating to us a great spiritual truth.* It speaks to us of
the greatest love story ever told - of how Jesus Christ gave Himself for us and
is intimately involved with and loves the Church (those who believe in Him).
In this framework of understanding between two growing Christians, the sexual
relationship can become a time of intimate fellowship as well as delight.
-------------------------------------------------------------
And this is only a few snippets from Chapter 1!
|
| 38.19 | | DPDMAI::HUDDLESTON | | Sat Mar 13 1993 10:56 | 7 |
| Metcalfe, you really out did yourself. I have enjoyed reading this
note very much. I agree with your statement in .8 "Love is an art to
be learned, and a discipline to be practised".
Donna
|
| 38.20 | The glory is God's | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Sat Mar 13 1993 18:18 | 17 |
| Thanks, Donna. I wish I could say that all that flies off my
fingertips was mine, mine, mine. (Then again, there is some that I
wish to disown, come to think of it!)
A teacher takes ideas and reformulates them for the audience (in this
case, my Sunday School class. Like a chef, a touch of this person's
words, and a touch of my own. I guess what I'm not saying very well is
that I can't claim credit for all of it, for some plow, some plant,
some water, some reap. I am extremely happy, though, when God uses my
contribution for someone's benefit and His glory.
Mark
P.S. Anything I write, except where copyrighted (c) (which is rare)
may be used again by [generic] you - just be sure to clip out
DEC-identifying headers and the like. And may the Lord reap from it
many times its value.
|
| 38.21 | Friend in Trouble | ESKIMO::HIRMER | | Mon Mar 15 1993 18:58 | 18 |
|
Mark,
Thank-you for your words of wisdom and your excellent scripture
quotes. I have printed out many sections of your entries (minus
headers) for a friend of mine who has been struggling with a
destructive marriage for four years (her husband has been
unfaithful often over the years and is verbally abusive) but
she is stuck on forgive "... not seven times, but seventy times
seven." (Matt. 18:22). I have been at a loss as how to effectively
help her scripturally and from a loving Christian perspective.
My hope is that your imputs here will give her some insights and show
her another Christian viewpoint.
In Christ,
Rowena
|
| 38.22 | maybe this was said, but... | DREUL1::rob | depending on His love | Tue Mar 16 1993 06:15 | 11 |
| Re .21 Rowena,
Hi, is this persons husband a christian? Has she taken the matter of his
unfaithfulness (repeated) to the elders in their church?
We should remember that adultery is grounds (biblical) for divorce. I have
to admit that I have not read the other replies, and perhaps that has already
been mentioned. I do not believe that it is a loving "christian" perspective
to ignore someone's sin.
Rob
|
| 38.23 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 10:07 | 14 |
| >We should remember that adultery is grounds (biblical) for divorce.
Rob,
Though you are correct, we must ever rememeber what Jesus said that
this [divorce] was not the way it was intended.
If there is hope for marriage, then every effort should be made to
restore a marriage to what was intended for a man and woman to be: one-flesh.
God illsutrated through Hosea, His willingness to take back, even at a price,
adulterous Israel.
Yes, there are times where divorce is permitted scripturally and times
(I think) when someone should "get out." We must be very careful for those
who may define "[no] hope for marriage" loosely to their peril.
Mark
|
| 38.24 | Anonymous posting | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 10:30 | 47 |
| The following note is posted anonymously:
================================================================================This couple I know, has been married for 24+ years and up until 18 weeks
ago, this marriage would have been considered a model marriage, in fact
one of their four children made that exact comment. They do have four
children with the oldest a first year student in college. Both individuals
confess to be Christian and from what I see, I believe this to be true.
Anyhow, 18 weeks ago, the wife started to question the trust and loyalty of
her husband, but knowing him well, I feel sure that NOTHING outside the
marriage was going on. Although, that seems to have been the spark to set
this mess off. Both had been seeing non-Christian counselors, due to
insurance coverage, but the husband has stopped. Both had been seeing their
Pastor jointly, but on the STRONG SUGGESTION of her counselor, that has
stopped completely. The husband wanted this to continue, as he felt that was
the only way they could work any problems together.
At this point in time, the husband feels that the only alternative is to sit
back, wait and see. It seems that he feels nothing can be done at this time,
on his part, except to leave this to God and prayer.
About 4 weeks ago, the wives counselor, the couples pastor and both the husband
and wife met, and at that point the counselor STRONGLY SUGGESTED that the
husband NOT touch his wife in anyway, even to the point of holding hands. Of
course this is basically the way it has been for the last 18 weeks, even
thou this brother/sister type relationship is NOT by mutual consent. The wife
seems (at least from my viewing of this situation) to be satisfied and enjoying
this type of relationship, in fact, it seems that this is the type of
relationship she has wanted for sometime, no really sure why, except that
she was brought up in an EXTREMELY conservative family, and relationships
were probably a NO-NO, even in marriage.
Both have said openly that they love each other, want to make this marriage
work, DON'T believe in divorce and don't want to hurt the other. The
question is, in this situation is it right to refuse the other marriage
partner any love or relationship. If so, how is masturbation viewed (in this
situation), or even as far as an affair. Is it better to consider something
like an affair while waiting for a marriage to heal, or is it better to just
do the unthinkable, a divorce? Over the last 18 weeks, this situation seems
to have gotten these two people more distant, instead of closer.
Sorry for being so long winded, and I also am sorry for leaving out some
details that I know this couple would prefer not to be shared. But I think
that enough information is here to address the questions asked. No one can
be sure if things will work out, except that God did bring these people
together and God doesn't make mistakes.
Thanks for listening.
|
| 38.25 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 10:43 | 49 |
| .24>
The wife is NOT GETTING BIBLICAL TRUTH. If she professes Christianity,
she'd better be looking into what the Bible has to say.
My brother's divorce is the result (my personal belief) of "counselling"
(supposedly Christian, yet not very biblical!), when his first marriage
culd have been salvaged.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that the wife is not gettnig conselling on
imporving the bond of marriage, but of gaining control of self, building
"self-esteem" (really selfishness disguised), and also control of the
marriage (dictating the circumstances under which the marriage will work).
>The question is, in this situation is it right to refuse the other marriage
>partner any love or relationship.
This is contra-biblical. It is true that one should NOT force the other,
but that a loving relationship is one that wants to give.
50-50 marriages do not work! 100-100 marriages where each gives 100%
to the other *EVEN WHEN THE OTHER FAILS TO GIVE* is what works and
what the Bible calls for.
>If so, how is masturbation viewed (in this situation), or even as far
>as an affair.
I'd prefer to answer this offline. I know the rest of you cannot; if you
send me mail, I'll forward it.
>Is it better to consider something like an affair while waiting for a
>marriage to heal, or is it better to just do the unthinkable, a divorce?
Only if you want to plunge a dagger into the heart of a marriage.
Absolutely not! Waiting for a marriage to heal MUST take steps
necessary to heal the marriage. This counsel is counterproductive
and destructive, as is evidenced by the following:
>Over the last 18 weeks, this situation seems to have gotten these
>two people more distant, instead of closer.
If these couples profess love for each other, and that God is first in
each of their lives, then they need to recognize that ANYTHING THAT
COMES BETWEEN THE HUSBAND AND WIFE IS AN ENEMY TO THE MARRIAGE. This
includes children, this includes career, this includes ANYTHING.
More in the next note...
|
| 38.26 | Biblical counselling... | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 10:58 | 55 |
| For starters, the principle behind a one flesh marriage is NOT a
50-50 marriage. The 50-50 marriage says, "I did my part, now it is your
turn." Marriages must be 100-100. "Husbands, love your wives as
Christ loved the church." "Wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord."
The principle does NOT say that husbands are to love their wives *as long
as they submit*, or wive to sumbit *as long as their husbands love
sacrificially. The principle says to do it, WHETHER OR NOT the other
is holding up their end.
If she has a complaint against her husband for not loving as Christ loved
the church, she has a legitmate complaint against him because he claims
Jesus as Lord but does not heed the Word. If she feels the way to correct
this is to shirk her part of the biblical model, she's dead wrong.
If he has a complaint against his wife for not submitting *AS UNTO THE LORD*,
then he has a legitmate complaint because she professes Jesus as Lord, but
does not heed the Word. If he feels the way to correct this is to demand
her submission, he's dead wrong.
The couple should not say, "this is the complaint amd this is what YOU should
do to change." Rather, they should say, "this is the complaint against ME;
what must *I* do to change?"
They must ask themselves, "What do we want? Do we *REALLY* want to be
married? Do we *REALLY* want a biblical marriage: one flesh?"
If they truly profess God as ultimate authority, the answer will be yes.
Next, they will realize that they DO NOT (YET) have this kind of marriage.
Next, they must DETERMINE THE COST of their desire to have the Biblical
marriage.
In practice, this is the breaking point. "Yes, of course, we want to
be married, a biblical marriage, a perfect marriage of one flesh.
Yes, of course we put God first. What? Submit? I can't get past that
word. What? Love sacrificially to the point of my whole life? Isn't
that a lot to ask? I thought I was the 'head of the home' (ruler).
Wow. This is going to be a lot of effort. I thought love was supposed
to be easy."
Love *IS* easy when the heart is yielded. We are to SUBMIT to each other,
UNDER the KINGship of God!
*IF* they determine the cost and determine also that NO MATTER WHAT THE COST,
they will STRIVE for one flesh as they both submit to the Lord and Bible
teaching (His word on the matter), then they will save their marriage and
it will be better than before and a True model marriage.
Until then, SELF dictates what happens to the marriage and self has been
a poor pilot.
My heart aches to hear about this, and it enraged at the DESTRUCTION of
bad counsel. Anyone who hangs a shingle out is a counsellor. Folks,
GOD'S WORD ENDURES and is PROVEN to work. Depend on it. Rely on it!
It WILL save your life! and your marriage!
Mark
|
| 38.27 | | DREUL1::rob | depending on His love | Tue Mar 16 1993 11:07 | 17 |
| I'm on my way out, but thought that I would quickly comment on a few things.
For one, thanks Mark for making the point clearer. I was not intending to say
that this woman should give up on the marriage. Everything has to be attempted
in order to bring the marriage back in order, but certainly one thing that
needs to be addressed is the sinning husband. If he refuses to repent of his
adultery, then he should come under church discipline. The answer to the
problem isn't to get a divorce, but allowing the husband to continue in sin
doesn't solve anything either.
I would also agree with Mark about this other couple. Obviously (from here)
this woman is getting ungodly counsel. A christian counselor would never
encourage a husband and wife to no longer touch, unless there were clear
evidence of a danger of spreading disease (ie, if the husband had committed
adultery and the question of AIDS should come up). It is never a good idea
to go to a non-christian counselor.
Rob
|
| 38.28 | A few more thoughts | CHTP00::CHTP05::LOVIK | Mark Lovik | Tue Mar 16 1993 11:12 | 34 |
| I won't attempt to address the entirety of the situation in .24 -- I
think a great part of the problem stems from "worldly" counselling
rather than spiritual counselling, as Mark M. has well said.
> in this situation is it right to refuse the other marriage
> partner any love or relationship.
As far as I can see, there is only one scriptural basis for a married
couple abstaining from relationships, and that is in the instance when
it is part of a period of fasting and prayer: "Let the husband render
unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the
husband." "Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for
a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer, and come
together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency."
(I Cor. 7:3,5). (In case the KJV English is not entirely clear, Paul
is speaking about sexual relations between the husband and wife.)
It is interesting to note that the "alternative" to normal
relationships is clearly an area where Satan can easily tempt.
There is a great difficulty in counselling a situation where only one
of the parners in marriage is willing to abide by what God's word
clearly shows. However, I believe that when giving counsel, we should
only counsel for God's best -- directing according to the will of God.
I believe God's will in this situation is clear, and that for the
husband to seek some other relationship would be a violation of God's
will. There is nothing "better".
If someone is unwilling to accept what is clearly "the will of God"
according the the Scriptures, I will give no other counsel. If someone
says "I see what you are saying, but I am not willing for that -- what
if (or, how about)...." I will offer no opinion. If God has clearly
shown what He wants, who am I to offer some other suggestion? No way!
Mark L.
|
| 38.29 | re: .24 | EVMS::GLEASON | The Word of God is living and active! | Tue Mar 16 1993 11:16 | 89 |
| To the anonymous noter,
It's hard for me to express the pain I felt as I read your note; it
was so great that I had to take the time to respond immediately. I
humbly offer my discernment in the hope that it might be helpful.
This marriage is under an all-out attack by Satan, primarily by way
of the non-Christian counselor whom the wife is seeing. Please
understand that by definition, any non-Christian counselor is in the
world and therefore has worldly advice -- this is not to say that God
cannot speak through a non-Christian counselor, but rather that
everything (and I mean *everything*) that such a counselor says
*must* be tested against the Bible with the Holy Spirit. My
strongest advice is that all people involved should stop seeing this
counselor; the very marriage is at stake, and perhaps far more.
I do not at all wish to minimize the feelings that the wife may be
having regarding the nature of relationships, but the solution given
by the counselor, however long in duration it was intended to be, of
not touching is exactly contrary to Scripture, specifically 1
Corinthians 7:3-5, which in the NIV reads as follows:
The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and
likewise the wife to her husband. The wife's body does not belong
to her alone but also to the husband. In the same way, the
husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife.
Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time,
so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together
again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of
self-control.
Why the pastor did not assert this I cannot say, but I can say that,
from what you have written, this period of not touching does *not*
constitute mutual consent for the express purpose of devotion to
prayer. This is the only Scriptural exception to the fulfillment of
marital duty God expects of both the husband and wife, and it is with
good reason: any other reasons for not fulfilling marital duty give
Satan a foothold, of which masturbation is one.
You're quite right that a divorce is unthinkable under all but the
most severe circumstances, and the Bible gives us guidance as to what
constitutes grounds for divorce. Even under those circumstances,
God's desire is to heal, but He does recognize that hardness of heart
on the part of one or both of the partners may prevent this.
An affair is even more unthinkable than divorce is; all affairs,
whether committed in the flesh or entertained in the heart, are
completely and totally Satanic, without exception. Anyone who
engages in an affair of either kind is most certainly walking the
road to destruction discussed in Proverbs 5 as well as elsewhere.
Jesus said that if a man even so much as looks lustfully at a woman,
he has committed adultery in his heart. God cares (very deeply)
about the state of our hearts, whether or not we give in to our
desires and act them out in the flesh. Though the consequences of
acting them out are often more severe, even if we do not act them
out, we have not sinned less in His eyes.
Masturbation is never mentioned in the Bible explicitly at all. But
having had a great deal with experience (and pain) battling it, I can
say that it produces only feelings of uncleanness, and the very urges
it was intended to alleviate are only intensified. Worse, it can
very well become an addiction, and even at best it is an area that
renders one extremely susceptible to Satan's influence. The entire
motivation behind masturbation is the giving to self of a very
specific type of pleasure -- that kind of pleasure that is only meant
to be experienced within the confines of a godly physical union
between husband and wife. It is an intensely self-centered,
rebellious act from which no good ever results. It must not be seen
as an alternative, even a temporary one.
I believe that the correct way to deal with the wife's feelings
regarding relationship is to explore them with her to find out where
they originated and why, so that they may be compassionately
confronted as false beliefs that result in sin, which must be
confessed and repented. The false beliefs must then be replaced with
truths from the Bible so that they may be rendered powerless and
dismissed, as should happen with all of Satan's lies. All this must
be done by a counselor who operates in the leading, wisdom, and power
of the Holy Spirit; only the Wonderful Counselor can possibly deal
with this (or any problem, realistically speaking) adequately; only
He is the Healer.
I do hope and pray that this is helpful; please don't hesitate to
contact me off-line or write again here, whichever you prefer, if I can
help further!
With love in Christ,
*** Daryl ***
|
| 38.30 | Anonymous response to .24 | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 11:17 | 31 |
| Mark, you statement concerning what her counselor is teaching her, is
from what I understand about 120% correct. In fact she seems to be
having a difficult time with her own spiritual issues and "I" think
it stems from her counselors direction. Even the pastor of their
church has offer to pay for Christian counseling, but she seems very
happy to stick with the person she has now. It seems funny that at
times, she seems very strong about continuing this marriage, but after
each session with her counselor, she becomes even more distant and cold
towards her husband. One additional thing, she and her husband use to
pray together each evening and after the joint meeting, about 4 weeks
ago, she stopped this also. Please feel free to add this to the note
if you wish, of course please keep this also ANONYMOUS. thanks Mark.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My response:
She must be asked whether God is paramount in her life or is this
counsellor? If God, then ask her what God has to say about the
counsel she's been recieving.
She MUST come to these conclusions herself, which is why you ask the
questions and leave the answer to her. DO NOT tell her the answer
or force it on her.
This woman is being fed an "empowerment" message. It is utter crap
for True empowerment only comes from One who can give it! This
counsellor is giving empowerment of self, all right. That's new age,
that the old message of the snake in the garden. It *is* a power
but it is a LIE that the biblical way is weak and wrong.
Man, my dander is up! Better stop for a few minutes....
|
| 38.31 | Echoing much of what has already been said. | EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS | Trade freedom for security-lose both | Tue Mar 16 1993 11:40 | 50 |
| I will echo the belief that the non-christian counselling is a major part of the
problem here. What the world views as right and what God views as right can be
very different. Not saying that all non-christian counsellors are bad, but if
you don't know what foundation they are building on, you have no idea where they
will lead you. In particular, the counsellor's STRONG SUGGESTION that she not
be in joint counselling with her husband and pastor sets off all sorts of
warning bells.
And I will also echo to the husband: DON'T EVEN LET THE THOUGHT FLIT THROUGH
YOUR MIND of having an affair to satisfy your sexual urges while your marriage
heals. This would be somewhat akin to beating a bruise with hammers while
waiting for it to heal. God calls us to complete abstinence outside the context
of marriage, and if sex is not possible in marriage right now, then it's not
possible. Many a man (and woman) has remained celibate for years - some for a
lifetime - and you can too.
And finally, I will echo that both husband and wife must examine themselves, not
try to fix the other. Tony Campolo said something about what he does in
marriage counselling that has stuck with me. He tells the people that he is
going to ask them to do something, and if they will do it and it doesn't work,
he will refund the complete cost of any counselling he has done with them. The
couple will usually assent to this, expecting some huge difficult thing. Then
he tells them both to do 10 things each day that they would do if they were
really "in love" with each other. Whether they be little - a note taped to a
mirror, or larger, 10 things each day.
He's never had to refund a penny. People either don't do it, or if they do, it
works. Our culture has told us that love is a feeling. It isn't. Love is a
choice. God tells us to love our enemies. That doesn't mean that we should
feel all warm and fuzzy about them. But it does mean that there are certain
ways that we should act toward them. The same in marriage. And the thing is,
that the feeling will follow the action.
One other thought - Corrie Ten Boom, years after her release from Nazi prison
camps, met one of the prison guards who had tormented her - one who had been
particularly brutal. The person had come to know the Lord and had completely
repented of his past, and he asked Corrie to forgive him. Corrie felt the hate
and anger welling up in her as she remembered what this person had done. There
was not the smallest spark of love-feeling in her for this man. Yet in sheer
teeth-gritting obedience to the Lord, she held out her hand to shake his and
offer her forgiveness. As she touched his hand, a touch that she made not out
of a feeling of love but out of obedience to the Lord to the ACTION of love -
she felt the FEELING of love for him overwhelm her, a love for him as another
child of God, who had been wounded just as she had.
If they both, husband and wife, will act as God has called them to act, even
though it be a teeth-gritting obedience that they don't really want to do, God
will honor their obedience and will heal their relationship.
Paul
|
| 38.32 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 12:03 | 2 |
| .31
Amen and Amen, Paul! Good counsel!
|
| 38.33 | Together | KAHALA::JOHNSON_L | Leslie Ann Johnson | Tue Mar 16 1993 12:15 | 42 |
| RE: Anonymous
I wasn't sure if the person writing was the husband or a friend of the
husband, but I have written this as though I were in part addressing
both husband and wife. I originaly wrote it speaking in third person
- ie they, them, their; so in places where the phrasing is awkward,
it may be that I didn't make the changes too well.
A very sad situation indeed. I too agree with Mark and the others that
to counsel a couple NOT to touch physically is both un-Biblical and counter-
productive to healing a marriage relationship. Physical expression - hugs,
kissing, holding hands, sexual intercourse & intimacy are an integral part
of the marriage relationship. A good book that might help with physical
intimacy is one that has been mentioned in this file before - "Intended for
Pleasure" by Dr. _________ and _________ Wheat.
On the other hand, to engage in extra-marital sexual activity because of
the other partner is witholding that physical intimacy is also very wrong
and destructive to the marriage.
All I can suggest from afar is that you need to pray, pray, pray, and
focus on God, not on yourselves. You each need to examine what your
attitude, words, and actions towards the other has been, and to repent of
any that are not loving, encouraging, patient and seek forgivenes of those
things from the other. You each need to desire to forgive the other, to
actively forgive the other, and to seek the Spirit's help in those areas
where you cannot bring themselves to forgive the other. The example of
Corrie TenBoom that someone else gave is very appropriate here. Where
there are habitual things that the one does that causes the other grief,
agitation, or other negative feelings, you need to work together to identify
these, and either change your perceptions, or change the habits - a difficult
task indeed, but if God is at the center of your hearts, minds, lives,
marriage, then it is not an impossible task.
There are probably some exercises you could do to help attain the above goals,
and a good couselor who is dedicated to helping you reconcile with each
other, and renew your marriage commitments before the Lord could probably
help guide you in those exercises. I hope and pray that God will lead you
both to one on whom you can agree and work with. But most important, God
must be at the center of your hearts.
Leslie
|
| 38.34 | | PCCAD::RICHARDJ | Getting Good At Getting By | Tue Mar 16 1993 12:50 | 14 |
| RE:26
>For starters, the principle behind a one flesh marriage is NOT a
>50-50 marriage. The 50-50 marriage says, "I did my part, now it is your
>turn." Marriages must be 100-100. "Husbands, love your wives as
>Christ loved the church." "Wives submit to your husbands as unto the Lord."
>The principle does NOT say that husbands are to love their wives *as long
>as they submit*, or wive to sumbit *as long as their husbands love
>sacrificially. The principle says to do it, WHETHER OR NOT the other
>is holding up their end.
Absolutely ! A marriage must be 100-100. 50-50 marriages usually fail.
Peace
Jim (happily married for the last 20 years)
|
| 38.35 | Jesus *has* won - hold onto the victory. | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Jesus is coming back | Tue Mar 16 1993 12:51 | 5 |
| I want to add my 'amen' to the preceding. Particularly Daryl's....
Seeing such clear evidence of the influence of that evil spirit
shook me considerably. I'll be praying.
Andrew
|
| 38.36 | | TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON | Roll away with a half sashay | Tue Mar 16 1993 13:38 | 51 |
| Re: 38.24
>Both had been seeing their Pastor jointly, but on the STRONG SUGGESTION
>of her counselor, that has stopped completely. The husband wanted this to
>continue, as he felt that was the only way they could work any problems
>together.
Get rid of her counselor! The counselor's actions make it clear that he
has no comprehension of Biblical marriage counseling, in my opinion. The
counselor must take a lot of the blame for the awful advice given.
>At this point in time, the husband feels that the only alternative is to sit
>back, wait and see. It seems that he feels nothing can be done at this time,
>on his part, except to leave this to God and prayer.
He can love his wife despite this. Reach out to her.
>About 4 weeks ago, the wives counselor, the couples pastor and both the husband
>and wife met, and at that point the counselor STRONGLY SUGGESTED that the
>husband NOT touch his wife in anyway, even to the point of holding hands.
What ridiculous, unScriptural advice. Is this how she is to express love
for her husband and give herself to him? No wonder the situation doesn't
improve but instead worsens.
>The wife seems (at least from my viewing of this situation) to be satisfied
>and enjoying this type of relationship,
Relationship?! What you are describing is not exactly what I think of
a husband-wife "relationship".
>Is it better to consider something like an affair while waiting for a
>marriage to heal...
Are you serious? An affair heal a marriage? What kind of logic is that?
That is the exact opposite of what Scripture teaches.
>Over the last 18 weeks, this situation seems to have gotten these
>two people more distant, instead of closer.
Not surprising at all considering that they are acting in ways that are
conducive to them living seperate lives instead of sharing.
I've read a dozen or so books on Christian marriage (and actually applied
the principles in some of them :-) ) and I have to say that it appears
that this secular counselor as well as the wife would do well to just
read (and heed!) any one of them. Particularly those by H. Norman Wright.
Markem's comments are all right on.
Collis
|
| 38.37 | From Anonymous | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 16 1993 13:41 | 36 |
| To all of you that replied to entry .24, I wanted to let you know that
the couple, or at least the husband in involved will see the notes as you
have posted them. I can tell you he will be extremely grateful for your
suggestions and prayers. Especially the prayers. I get a sense from him
that his feelings about his wives counselor is much in line with several of
the replies, however she seems very happy to stay with her regardless of
her (the counselors) lack of Christian direction. This wife has been seeing
this counselor for at least 18 visits to date, yet the situation seems to
be NO better than it was 18 weeks ago. Since the meeting took place with
the Pastor and counselor, the Pastor, who was deeply involved in working this
situation, seems to have stepped back away from everything and everyone. The
reason isn't clear, except the counselor had several phone conversations with
the Pastor the week before the meeting. Yes, alot can be read into this, but
it just appears difficult to understand as to why the Pastor, who was working
extremely hard to bring these two people back together seems to have dropped
out of the picture, for the most part.
From my view point, it seems that the counselor for the wife is looking to be
the only focus of the situation, since all other help, joint or otherwise has
been cut off at her (counselors) suggestion. In fact the husband has even
asked once, since the joint meeting, if they could start meeting with the
Pastor again, and all the wife says is, no. Several weeks ago, the husband
had made contact with a Christian counselor in Marlboro, and at that time,
the wife had some interest in seeing her, but after the joint meeting, all
outside/joint possibilities are out. It really seems that nothing, if anything
will change or improve unless this counselor says so. Of course, this is just
another opinion.
But I do want to ask you all to pray for this couple, they are a special pair
that has run into a difficult situation and the ONLY solution is PRAYER, and
more prayer......This is the only way to over come any negative input for
outside counselors or other sources.
Thank you so much, each of you.
|
| 38.38 | re: .37 | EVMS::GLEASON | The Word of God is living and active! | Tue Mar 16 1993 13:55 | 27 |
| >Since the meeting took place with the Pastor and counselor, the Pastor,
>who was deeply involved in working this situation, seems to have stepped
>back away from everything and everyone. The reason isn't clear, except
>the counselor had several phone conversations with the Pastor the week
>before the meeting. Yes, alot can be read into this, but it just appears
>difficult to understand as to why the Pastor, who was working extremely
>hard to bring these two people back together seems to have dropped out of
>the picture, for the most part.
*Sigh* This is exactly the sort of thing to which I was referring when
I suggested that the impact of this situation might be greater than
this couple. Through this counselor, Satan is not only attacking the
couple but also their shepherd. If he can disable the shepherd, the
sheep will scatter...
In addition to prayers for the couple, I would like to solicit
prayers for the pastor and for the entire congregation. And I would
urge anyone who might be in a position to speak to and encourage this
pastor to do so with as much love and understanding and as soon as
possible. It is critical that he understand who it is that is really
attacking him and that he put on his armor and let God be his refuge
and strength. If you can, please remind him of Psalm 23 at this time,
for he may be about to walk through the valley of the shadow of death.
In His love,
*** Daryl ***
|
| 38.39 | Praying for wisdom in this matter | RIPPL1::BRUSO_SA | Horn players have more brass | Tue Mar 16 1993 17:04 | 17 |
|
Re: .37
I think your assessment of the situation with the counselor is accurate,
Mark. There is a branch of clinical psychology today that believes that
patients should be totally isolated from outside influences, to the
extent of not allowing contact with family members, physical and
otherwise. The theory is that the patient can process only certain
kinds of information and that information can be controlled only by the
clinician. Nice if it works, I suppose, but I saw this kind of
treatment almost destroy my sister. I think this woman needs a second
opinion.
Sandy
|
| 38.40 | | MIMS::GULICK_L | When the impossible is eliminated... | Wed Mar 17 1993 04:24 | 13 |
|
Mark, or Anonymous Husband if you are reading,
Please be aware that the situation here is so clear as to achieve a
unanimous response in replies, including mine. This is not said in
jest.
Brothers and sisters, we must also be united in prayer for this couple
in this serious situation. The issues are too clear, and other forces
are therefore involved. I bring my agreement with you to our Heavenly
Father in prayer in the name Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.
Lew
|
| 38.41 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Wed Mar 17 1993 09:21 | 50 |
| This note has been bothering me all night, so that I awoke early and
logged in from home....
While I agree that there certainly is an attack on the home, and that
the counsel is deadly... there is something that bothers me... the
wife's point of view.
It is automatically assumed based on one-side that *she* is in error.
I noted one person stating acknowledgement that perhaps the "unknown"
in her life is a contributor to this situation.
When praying folks, lets also remember there is a wounded spirit in this
woman that is allowing ungodly counsel to influence her. Most people
do not seek *outside* counsel if there emotional, spiritual and
physical needs are being met in the home.
Husband, if you are reading this, I'd ask you to ask yourself this
question, tough one as it is, "Have you loved your wife as Christ loves
the Church? Before you answer this, let me also add that entails a lot
more then financial support, going to church, and making love. Did you
listen to her when she needed you? Did you notice her drifting away,
or did it just happen and knock you over? Was it deacon's meetings,
tv sports, work, that took you away so often, while even in her
presence?
The mere fact that the question of sexuality came up as result in this,
disgusts me... but it is also an indicator that there is more wrong
here then *bad* counsel. If your wife had dibilitating disease and
couldn't perform sexually, would you then also think that it *might* be
okay for extramarital sex? If not, what makes this any different?
Basically she is sick, heart sick... Lord, heal that heart.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[DISCLAIMER- If this particularly piece was completely contributed by
the person who wrote for the husband... then he should look at it]
Now, I don't know this situation intimately at all, what I have just
written may seem *strong* and out of place, but its what is on my
heart.
At my church, more and more women come to me about marital problems
after 15-20 years of marriage, particularly as the kids are out of the
next and the woman's role that has fulfilled her and sustained her
through the marriage is starting to leave. She feels empty, alone, her
husband has been so involved in the church and her with her children,
that they don't have intimacy any longer....
Folks pray for the hurt in her life too.
Nancy
|
| 38.42 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 17 1993 10:51 | 19 |
| Thanks for your concern, Nancy. I think if you read more closely, the
anger is directed at the counsellor and not the counselled. The wife is
in danger of being "sucked in" by non-biblical (read worldly, selfish
counsel).
No one has castigated her for the problems in the marriage! They are all
concerned for her full reliance on this outside counsellor.
You are correct to point out that the husband's responsibilities may have
been [even significant] contributors to the situation; and that the wife
may have other things, but this is not the issue these people have addressed.
And if you will look, all answers for BOTH husband and wife are biblical,
in loving as Christ loved the church, and submitting as unto the Lord.
They will both examine and identify their failings, BUT THE CURE IS ALREADY
LAID OUT IN SCRIPTURE, and this is the counsel they need at this time,
rather than more pointing.
Mark
|
| 38.43 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Wed Mar 17 1993 11:09 | 9 |
| That was bitter/sweet Mr. Metcalfe... thanks for clarifying.
Fingerpointing= NO
Ownership Awareness=Yes
Fingerpointing implies only one side is right... not my intention.
Nancy
|
| 38.44 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 17 1993 11:21 | 6 |
| > Fingerpointing implies only one side is right... not my intention.
I know. You were only trying to achieve a balance from a perceived
imbalance. You're okay in my book, sis.
Mark
|
| 38.45 | | KAHALA::JOHNSON_L | Leslie Ann Johnson | Wed Mar 17 1993 11:24 | 4 |
| Nancy,
I think you do raise some significant points. I too was thinking along
those lines during dinner last night. __Leslie
|
| 38.46 | | TLE::COLLIS::JACKSON | Roll away with a half sashay | Wed Mar 17 1993 13:47 | 15 |
| Nancy,
I think your points are well taken. Indeed, husbands
need to look at themselves carefully and evaluate the
love they show for their wives.
I believe that it's Dr. Wheat who claims that if a
marriage lasts more than 5 years and then breaks apart,
the husband is primarily responsible. He's still looking
for his first exception after 25+ years of experience.
Whether or not it's true (and I tend to believe that it
is), it certainly gives a husband pause to think, "what
should I be doing for me wife".
Collis
|
| 38.47 | Anonymous posting (same as .24) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Mar 17 1993 13:53 | 34 |
| Nancy, you are correct in stating you have only heard one side of this
situation, and the husband has fully accepted the fact that he is
more to blame for this mess than she is. In fact, the spark that most
likely set this whole situation off, was the fault of the husband. He has
asked forgiveness from his wife, his pastor and God. It seems though, that
only his wife is having a difficult time with forgiveness, and the question
may be, WHY? Any difficult situation like this, is NEVER one sided. The
husband wants to heal this marriage. He ISN'T the one who stopped the
joint visits with their pastor, it isn't the husband who didn't want to
go to joint counselling. Understandable that both parties are deeply hurt,
but healing cannot take place as long as a wall divides them. No question,
both are to blame, not one. But the question is, are they both willing to
mead this marriage, and are they both willing to follow the word of God
without any changes.
At the meeting where the Pastor, counselor and the couple were present, the
counselor brought up divorce at least twice, even though, both said at the very
beginning that divorce was out of the question. I am not sure why she insisted
on bringing it up, except maybe she just wanted to be sure that this couple
was in agreement. But the question remains, it is correct in the eyes of God
to keep from ones husband/wife without mutual agreement? It is right to put
one individual in COMPLETE control of any affection, including, if any is
to be shown? Well, that is exactly the way this marriage is right now. It
really is more of a brother/sister arrangement than anything else, keep in
mind that this couple has been married for 24+ years and have together made
(with God's help) four children.
The husband has seen all these replies and wishes to sincerely thank each and
every one of you for your inputs, caring and especially PRAYERS. He knows at
this time, that only God will be able work the healing to this marriage,
so he is asking for continuing PRAYERS.
Thanks
|
| 38.48 | Is God Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent? | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Wed Mar 17 1993 14:51 | 68 |
| >Nancy, you are correct in stating you have only heard one side of this
>situation, and the husband has fully accepted the fact that he is
>more to blame for this mess than she is. In fact, the spark that most
>likely set this whole situation off, was the fault of the husband. He has
>asked forgiveness from his wife, his pastor and God. It seems though, that
>only his wife is having a difficult time with forgiveness, and the question
>may be, WHY? Any difficult situation like this, is NEVER one sided.
Thanks for acknowledging that is never one sided. I'm also happy to
hear he is willing to own up to his God-given responsibility as the head
of his home, and admit failure in leadership.
>The
>husband wants to heal this marriage. He ISN'T the one who stopped the
>joint visits with their pastor, it isn't the husband who didn't want to
>go to joint counselling.
I did *hear* this as well. I entered a testimony on my divorce in 66.7
in which a paragraph or two talks about the feeling of being
*powerless*. I hope you will read it and comment here if it applies.
>Understandable that both parties are deeply hurt,
>but healing cannot take place as long as a wall divides them. No question,
>both are to blame, not one. But the question is, are they both willing to
>mead this marriage, and are they both willing to follow the word of God
>without any changes.
And honestly, this cannot be answered, speculated or concluded here.
>At the meeting where the Pastor, counselor and the couple were present, the
>counselor brought up divorce at least twice, even though, both said at the very
>beginning that divorce was out of the question. I am not sure why she insisted
>on bringing it up, except maybe she just wanted to be sure that this couple
>was in agreement.
Sigh, I think we *all* agree this counselor gives ungodly counsel and
cannot be trusted with the fate of this marriage... But, we are
powerless and must let our faith sustain us through prayer asking for the
scales to fall off the wife's eyes on *this* matter.
>But the question remains, it is correct in the eyes of God
>to keep from ones husband/wife without mutual agreement? It is right to put
>one individual in COMPLETE control of any affection, including, if any is
>to be shown? Well, that is exactly the way this marriage is right now. It
>really is more of a brother/sister arrangement than anything else, keep in
>mind that this couple has been married for 24+ years and have together made
>(with God's help) four children.
I had sex for nearly 12 years in marriage and it stopped, I haven't
died. Have agonized somewhat, but haven't died. I *think* this is
ludicrous to bring up at this point.
Now, do I believe it is sin for her to abstain from marital relations
apart from biblical guidelines? Yes! But it most likely is sin that
got them to this point today. Which the husband has already taken
responsibility for. Attitudes must change.. how does he view his wife,
as one who meets *his* needs or one who's needs he must meet?
>The husband has seen all these replies and wishes to sincerely thank each and
>every one of you for your inputs, caring and especially PRAYERS. He knows at
>this time, that only God will be able work the healing to this marriage,
>so he is asking for continuing PRAYERS.
Absolutely the only thing any of *us* can do... God is the healer.
Nancy
|
| 38.49 | When *we* are powerless | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Wed Mar 17 1993 17:21 | 17 |
| extracted from 66.7 [Divorce]
The pain was real, the rejection was real, the anger was real and the
feeling of powerlessness was real. The dream of one spouse, family and
home no longer existed. Thoughts of loneliness, financial struggles,
parental challenges and shame that I failed in my walk with God, once
again all flashed before me. These feelings of loss were worse then
if he had died. At least with death, there are no options, but with
God there were options that could have saved this marriage.
Powerlessness is the epitomy of emotional torture. Yet, it is within
that same feeling of powerlessness therein lies the answer. By admitting
that we are powerless over anything, or another person is exactly where God
want us to be. It is then, that God can do His greatest work within
a person.
Nancy
|
| 38.50 | Anonymous posting... | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 08:51 | 46 |
| re: .48
Nancy, as the author of the anonymous note .24, and one who has strong
knowledge of this difficult situation, I was a little concerned that you
may have missed a point with your comment in .48, about sex being
"ludicrous" to bring up at this point.
I really don't think that was what the intention of the original note (.24),
the situation is that the husband CANNOT touch his wife in ANY way, including
hand holding, hugging, kissing, touching her shoulder, rubbing her back (with
clothes on, of course) along with any other form of physical contact. The
point was NOT that a need was required to have actual intercourse, but the need
to have some method of physical contact, LIKE A HUG, or at the very least, a
squeeze of a hand. Even this typical of "physical" affection is being with
held. It is very clear that the wives counselor wants no contact between the
two, but is this really the way to bring them together, is this really the
way to show love?
From my point of view, being unable to even touch a person in a sign of
affection is "ludicrous". Touch is a very important form of affection.
Unfortunately, it seems that the wife is following the counselors "suggestion"
to the letter, which in any terms seems to be crazy.
Other points that have not been mentioned, at no time in their 24 years of
marriage has the husband EVER struck his wife, he doesn't drink, or smoke. He
has remain faithful to her, and does confess to be a Christian, and does
attend Sunday School and church on a regular basis. They have been sending
their children to a Christian High School and the oldest is presently attending
a Christian College.
Yes, their walk with the Lord did come in question, but they know and
understand that. But the point here is, what is the right advice for BOTH
the husband and wife. Is it right to NOT be able to touch, is it right not
to be able to greet each other with a WARM SMILE and kiss, is it right not to
be able to pat one another on the back or shoulder? The Bible is very clear
as to intercourse, and it does appear that this is being held back, without
mutual consent.
Nancy, I just wanted to try and clear up some of your concerns, the husband in
question agrees with most of your comments and thanks you for them. Please,
PLEASE continue to pray for this couple.
in HIS Name......
|
| 38.51 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 08:59 | 12 |
| Thank you, Anonymous. No one means to place a burden of blame on the
wife, nor should we feel the need for placing ownership of blame on
the husband - for none of us knows the whole situation. This
counsellor is not giving sound advice. The wife is brought up
in these past replies because she is the one receiving and accepting
the words of the counsellor. It is the wife who must consider whether
the advice she is being given is sound and biblical.
----- BUT -----
If marriage is to be ONE, then the solutions have to be for THEM and
not just Him and Her.
|
| 38.52 | Wedding vows (reprinted from my church's manual) | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 09:23 | 102 |
| Matrimony
Minister: Dearly Beloved: We are gathered together here in the sight
of God, and in the presence of these witnesses, to join together this
man and this woman in holy matrimony, which is an honorable estate,
instituted of God in the time of man's innocency, signifying unto us
the mystical union that exists between Christ and His Church. The holy
estate Christ adorned and beautified with His presence and first mir-
acle that he wrought, in Cana of Galilee, and St. Paul commended as
being honorable among all men. It is, therefore, not to be entered into
unadvisedly, but reverently, discreetly, and in the fear of God.
Into this holy estate these persons present now come to be joined.
(Addressing the couple to be married the minister shall say:)
[Man] and [woman], I require and charge you both that, if either of
you knows any impediments why you may not be lawfully joined together
in matrimony, you do now confess it: for be well assured that so many
as are coupled together otherwise than God's Word allows are not joined
together by God, neither is their matrimony lawful.
(If no impediment be alleged, then shall the minister say unto the man:)
[Man], will you have this woman to be your wedded wife, to live to-
gether after God's ordinance in the holy estate of matrimony? Will you
love her, comfort her, honor and keep her in sickness and in health;
and forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto her, so long as you
both shall live?
Man: I will.
(Then shall the minister say unto the man:)
Minister: [Woman], will you have this man to be your wedded husband,
to live together after God's ordinance in the holy estate of matri-
mony? Will you love him, comfort him, honor and keep him in sickness
and in health; and forsaking all others, keep yourself only unto him,
so long as you both shall live?
Woman: I will.
Minister: Who gives this woman to be married to this man?
Father, or whoever gives the bride in marriage: I do.
(Facing each other and joining right hands, the couple shall then ex-
change the following vows: The man shall repeat after the minister:)
Man: I, [man], take you, [woman], to be my wedded wife, to have and
to hold from this day forward, for better-for worse, for richer-for
poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death
us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I pledge
you my faith.
(The woman shall repeat after the minister:)
Woman: I, [woman], take you, [man], to be my wedded husband, to have
and to hold from this day forward, for better-for worse, for richer
- for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till
death us do part, according to God's holy ordinance; and thereto I pledge
you my faith.
(If desired, a ring ceremony may be inserted at this point. The min-
ister receives the ring from the groomsman and, in turn, passes it to
the groom. As he then places it upon the bride's finger, he shall re-
peat, after the minister:)
Man: This ring I give you as a token of my love and as a pledge of my
constant fidelity.
(Repeat for double ring ceremony.)
(The couple then shall kneel as the minister offers the following or
and extemporaneous prayer: )
Minister: O Eternal God, Creator and Preserver of all mankind, Giver
of all spiritual grace, the Author of everlasting life, send thy bless-
ing upon these Thy servants, this man and this woman, whom we now bless
in Thy name; that as Isaac and Rebekah lived faithfully together, so
these persons may surely perform and keep the vow and covenant made
between them this hour and may ever remain in love and peace together,
through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen.
(Then shall the minister say:)
Forasmuch as this man and woman have consented together in holy wed-
lock, and have witnessed the same before God and this company, and have
declared the same by joining of hands, I pronounce that they are hus-
band and wife together, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and
of the Holy Spirit. Those whom God has joined together let not man put
asunder. Amen.
(The minister shall then add his blessing.)
God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, bless, preserve, and
keep you; the Lord mercifully with His favor look upon you, and fill
you with all spiritual benediction and grace. May you so live together
in this life that in the world to come you may have life everlasting.
(The minister may then conclude with an extemporaneous prayer and/or
benediction.)
|
| 38.53 | For All | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Thu Mar 18 1993 11:22 | 56 |
| Dear Anonymous Noter:
The *only* thing to do at this point is to pray that the counselor be
removed from a place of influence in the wife's life...
I need to say something here, not for the benefit of this husband, but
for the benefit of who may read this.
I had to ask myself the question *why* did I choose the counsellor I
had when my father died and I needed to sort through the sexual abuse.
I chose the counsellor because she *validated* my experience. When I
had gone to my pastor and had told him that making love to my husband
had become *disgusting* because of his alcoholism, my Pastor's eyes got
very wide and he listened. I explained that Rafael would be drunk and
smelled like a bar and then would want me to *perform* wifely duties
for him.
My Pastor said these words, "Nancy, I don't think you should deny your
husband in *that* area ever."
You may as well have told me that I was born to be lower then dirt. I
walked out of his office feeling as though I was *nothing* and that my
whole being was created for someone else to use and abuse.
Now, did my Pastor mean that? NO!!!! But he lacked the wisdom and
knowledge to validate me by saying, "Nancy, it is understandable that
you would not want to *do* those things with your husband when he is
drunk and unsanitary, however, "
I put that out there to speculate that in churches women are often not
validated but told to submit at all costs. Submit even if it hurts.
I don't know the plight of this wife, but as a woman, I can say my
*guess* is she went for the counsellor who validated her. Food for
thought.
Now the why for having stated this...
If you are ever in a situation where someone needs counsel, but there
is definite pain or hurt in that person's life, it is *imperative* to
let that person know you *understand* their pain and hurt. Then,
when you need to rightly divide the word of truth with that individual
the unconditional love of Christ has already been established.
My dear friend, Mark Metcalfe, on several occasion has rebuked me in
areas that are sensitive. But I could take the counsel and grow from
it because I *knew* Mark didn't devalue me, he loved as scripture
indicates a friend should love and be a sharpening stone.
People who are *hurting* need the unconditional love of Christ made
evident in their lives. Broken vessels can't receive it, its alien and
God can use and has ordained to use His children to vessels of that
love. It is in my [rambling opinion] that without *that* no Godly
counsel can get through.
Nancy
|
| 38.54 | Amen, Nancy... | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Jesus is coming back | Thu Mar 18 1993 12:00 | 32 |
| � The *only* thing to do at this point is to pray that the counselor be
� removed from a place of influence in the wife's life...
This might be reached in a number of ways - for instance, the blind being
lifted from the wife's eyes, to see through to the godless source of the
counseling, or confusion to the counselor who is relying on establishing
this influence....
� *guess* is she went for the counsellor who validated her.
- It's *most* important, to validate the wife, to see where she is coming
from, and start from there; not demand that she 'be' someone other than she
is or can be.... The needed change in attitude and personality requires a
deep work of the Holy Spirit. To reach there needs a willingness and
yielding to Him. This in turn depends upon a dissatisfaction not only with
the current state, but where it is heading. Both husband and wife need to
have open hearts to Him addresing them in this respect.
So I believe that an effective prayer is that the *Holy Spirit* would open
the wife's eyes as to where the current train of actions is leading - not
to the establishment of an independent superwoman, but to the sacrifice of
precious gifts of life that He has bestowed. Loss, not gain. I emphasise
that the Holy Spirit has to open her eyes in this respect, because she has
a defence against receiving from any other human source. To try without
very definite leading from the LORD would be to erect a rigid barrier
there, but He can reach in and turn people around where humanly there is
just no scope for any change.
"What god is so great as Our God? You are the God who performs miracles."
Psalm 77:13-14
Andrew
|
| 38.55 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:05 | 8 |
| > - It's *most* important, to validate the wife, to see where she is coming
>from, and start from there; not demand that she 'be' someone other than she
>is or can be....
I whole-heartedly agree with Andrew, who is echoing Nancy. If I have not
been clear on this, forgive me.
Mark
|
| 38.56 | From Anonymous | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:06 | 37 |
| RE: 53
Hi Nancy, thank you for for sharing your story with all of us, but
especially to the couple in question. I really think that you and
Andrew (re:54) have focused on the problem, it is NOT necessarily
seeing the secular counselor, it is knowing how to take the words of
her counselor and having the ability to NOT put them above the word of
God. The counselor may be the outlet that this person may need, but
she also MUST know that the truth for this marriage and all of life,
is found only in God's word, no where else. Here is lays the concern,
is she willing and able to distinguish that God's word and teachings are
above this counselor, and (maybe more important) is this counselor
willing and able to let the wife follow the teachings of God?
It is really an awful thing to consider, but why did this counselor stop the
joint sessions with the Pastor, these were the only times when both were
together in a control environment with the word of God right in their hands,
could it be that since the counselor is getting $140.00 (per the insurance
company) per visit of 55 minutes, and she admittedly (in front of their Pastor)
state she was NOT a Christain, could she have other things in mind, other than
real concern for this person. Of course all these things are possible, and
I know that in time, God will work through this. But it is extremely difficult
to see two people that you love so much, going through such hurt and pain, when
all the answers are in God's word.
I guess what I would like to ask is that this couple will pick up God's word
and follow it without question and that as soon as possible, they both return
to each other under the guidance of our Lord. They both have suffered alot,
I know, I have seen this very SPECIAL marriage come almost to an end in the
last 18 weeks. But fortunately, God is with them, for they are "still" not
considering divorce, pray that the counselor will have enough guidance to NOT
KEEP WORKING on this issue.
In HIS Name
|
| 38.57 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:23 | 27 |
| >could it be that since the counselor is getting $140.00 (per the insurance
>company) per visit of 55 minutes, and she admittedly (in front of their Pastor)
>state she was NOT a Christain, could she have other things in mind, other than
>real concern for this person.
She could have "real" concern for this person. Real concern that
Christianity is a "crutch" and burdensome.
This is a question of competing authorities. The pastor's authority,
the counsellor's authority, and the views they represent. In Nancy's
case, her Pastor was an inadequate representative for *his* Authority
because of a {insert reason, communications problem, tact, whatever}.
And no less is this a question of competing authorities between the
advice the counsellor is giving and the Bible. As a marriage guide,
the Bible is an authority; the counsellor is a competing authority
offering an alternate (in her view, enlightened) view that seems to
run counter to Scripture.
We choose our authorities to obey, whether we like it or not. "Can two
walk together except they be agreed?" In other words, the wife (or
any of us) cannot follow conflicting authorities.
Those of us who believe the Bible to be True, there is only One Absolute
Authority, and that is God Almighty. And the Bible is His Word for us.
Mark
|
| 38.58 | A day of Prayer | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Search Me Oh God | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:27 | 23 |
| Time to pray on this and let God do the work...
Father,
There is a marriage ordained by You, dear Lord, that is suffering at
the hands of *self*. Father, may self be rebuked and the stronghold of
Satan be eradicated through the blood of Jesus, Your Son.
Father, may this worldly counsel be removed from this woman's life in
whatever way You see fit. And Lord, I ask that you would give this
husband the courage to mend his wounds and do for his wife, what this
counsellor is doing. Give him wisdom in his words, give him patience
in his desires, and annoint him with Your Holy Spirit, so that anger,
resentment and pain has no place in his heart. Fill him Lord with your
uconditional love, allow him to see his wife through your eyes.
For this woman, Lord, I ask that the scales would be removed from her
eyes and that her heart would be directed towards You. Father, You can
do this, as she envelopes you in her heart, may You permeate and fill
her entire being, so that she would be tender to Your Spirit's
prompting.
I ask all of this in Jesus' name, Amen.
|
| 38.59 | From Anonymous | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:58 | 11 |
| RE:58
Thank you Nancy, your prayer is in the hands of the husband and our God,
please continue to pray for this couple.....I believe they both truly love
the Lord, but that the human part of their life almost distroyed something
that God had created, their marriage.
Please, please I ask that you continue to pray this prayer for them.
Thank you......
|
| 38.60 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 18 1993 13:59 | 3 |
| .58>
I assent to this prayer Lord, with all my heart! Amen and so be it!
|
| 38.61 | re: .56 | EVMS::GLEASON | The Word of God is living and active! | Thu Mar 18 1993 14:21 | 26 |
| To the anonymous poster,
With all respect, I would *strongly* disagree that the issue is not
one of seeing the secular counselor. On the contrary, if my leading
is correct, it is absolutely critical that we pray that she be led to
stop seeing this counselor. Since this counselor is not a Christian,
then any compassion shown to the wife cannot be God's compassion and
instead will become (and has become) a snare to her, even if the
counselor has the most honorable of intentions, because the wife is
in a very vulnerable state. Because of her vulnerability, the
counselor's suggestions will have an extreme amount of power over
her, and counsel that is not of the Holy Spirit will be deadly.
My sense is that much more is at stake here than just this marriage;
the full potential for destruction to the pastor and the congregation
as a whole is very great. This counselor is *not* the outlet that
she needs, but in fact the counselor can perhaps be seen as the type
of outlet that is needed, but from a Christian source.
Of course, I do agree that it is critical that we also pray that the
wife see that the authority of the Word of God supersedes that of any
human and is the only sure Way to healing.
In His love,
*** Daryl ***
|
| 38.62 | Turn the tables. | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Thu Mar 18 1993 19:48 | 38 |
| Amen, Daryl. And to the preceding, but it;sheavy on my heart too, that this
attack is aimed, not ultimately at a marriage, but at the right of the LORD
to care for His flock. As such, it is a most pernicious attack, striking
at the heart of the flock - smiting the under-shepherd, that the wolves
might ravage freely.
The pastor has been displaced from his responsibility of listening to the
LORD on behalf of the needy of the flock. His very office has been
challenged, and his confidence - whether in the LORD, or otherwise - has
been undermined. We need to pray that this will open him to Your wisdom in
these matters. A wisdom which the world cannot refute or answer.
"Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world."
This is not an invitation for us to wield the LORD against our foes, but
for Him to wield us against His foes, to free these in bondage. Of whom
this counselor is one. It is again easy to see her as an enemy, rather
than as a tool of the enemy.
Andrew
=============================================================================
My LORD, satan is overreaching himself when he invades Your territory.
But, LORD, You are glorious and exciting. I've seen You work in such
ways... The enemy reaches out, is cut off, surrounded by Your love, and
overwhelmed. LORD, grant it in this case. My LORD, I dare to ask that
this poor wretched tool of the enemy, this so-called counselor, should meet
with Your love, and be so swamped by it that she cannot utter the words or
wisdom of the world... And, LORD, that this poor wife may see, and
appreciate what has happened, and have her eyes opened to the gulf she is
balanced beside. And of Your arms, holding and protecting her. My LORD,
grant such a revelation as will utterly rout the bitterness and hardness
planted by the enemy, and grant instead, Your love and tenderness. A great
revelation which will make this couple a sword in Your hand against the
forces of evil in days to come. In the blessed Name of Jesus, I pray.
- Amen
|
| 38.63 | | AUSSIE::CAMERON | and God sent him FORTH (Gen 3:23) | Thu Mar 18 1993 20:35 | 8 |
| Re: Note 38.52 by TOKNOW::METCALFE
> -< Wedding vows (reprinted from my church's manual) >-
Interesting... almost identical to the ones we have here in Australia.
Our cultures have not diverged in this area as much as I had feared.
James
|
| 38.64 | Compare not | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Wed Jan 19 1994 11:21 | 28 |
| It is about time to open this topic again with a note about comparisons.
One of the cardinal rules of one flesh is to NEVER compare your mate to
another.
Many times, a husband may compare you to his mother in one area, to
a model on a commercial in another area, to a friend's wife in another
area. Put an end to it, fellas, beginning now. (Same goes for the
wives, too.)
Begin to appreciate your wife without comparisons. The vows you made at
the altar (sometimes in word but always implied) is that you consider
all other women dead to you. That means there is only one woman and
no one to whom she can be compared.
Do not say, think, or entertain thoughts of she is not *as* well
equipped *as* so-and-so. Do delight in your wife, and seek for
ways to be encouraging, even in the face of discouragement. It
will not be long, if you are consistent, before you see a measurable
change in your relationship. And you will see the beauty in your mate
that one-flesh marriages have.
When you are tempted to make a comparison, deny the temptation any
room and redouble your effort to love your wife as Christ loved the Church.
(And you wives are not exempt from this advice either. ;-) )
Mark
|
| 38.65 | What was that, Pluck it out of your Eye! | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Wed Jan 19 1994 12:17 | 7 |
| .64
Amen! When we take our eyes off of our mates, its because our eyes
have been meditating on that which they should not.. otherwise, there'd
be no comparing.
:-)
Nancy
|
| 38.66 | | CNTROL::JENNISON | Unto us, a Child is given | Tue Jan 25 1994 16:20 | 9 |
|
Hmmm...
when we went through Marriage Ministries, we read Proverbs 31.
My beloved Jamie said, "I want that woman!!"
Of course, I shared this with the group at our next meeting
(so we all could "boo" him publicly ;-) )
|
| 38.67 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Jan 25 1994 16:36 | 1 |
| Jamie cannot have her. She is already married to me.
|
| 38.68 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Jan 25 1994 16:38 | 10 |
| .67
Would all the women in this conference join me in a GREAT BIG
PFFFFFFLLLLLLLLLTTTTTTTTTTTTTT @ Mark MetCALFE!
:-)
Nancy
|
| 38.69 | corrected some pronouns... | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Feb 03 1994 15:40 | 96 |
| From 392.20 (Mark Metcalfe) I thought this belonged better here.
> Small divergence (to identifying some male and female differences):
> males are primarily visually stimulated; women are more verbally
> stimulated. A man values more that his wife respects him than that she
> loves him. He'll go and do great things if he knows he is respected,
> even when love isn't as strong. A woman values more that her husband loves
> her. She'll go almost anywhere and do anything if she know he loves
> her. Keep this in mind when dealing with your husband.
Regarding respect: I have joked from time to time saying that "the best
wife is the woman who lets her husband think he is in charge." I haven't
particularly liked the implications of the joke, but I see a different
application. I know that sometimes men and women marry and they are not
at the same level of talent, intelligence, or whatever. And like a
sibling rivalry, jealousy (perhaps on a subconscious level) is an
undercurrent. When one mate out-shines another, it can offer a bed for
jealousy to grow.
I looked at some journal writing I made in 1986. I was ashamed, yet glad
to see that I was candid in my writing. My wife was voted onto the
Sunday School board and I missed being voted onto the church board in a
runoff vote to break the tie for last place. It bothered me that my wife
would be "in" on some of the decisions for direction in the church. It
bothered me that she was going out once a month to these meetings leaving
me at home with the baby and two children. (It was a window into
immaturity that I would not have perceived had I not written down my
feelings at the time; a window into the change God has wrought in my
life.)
On another tack, my wife has a nice choir voice; on pitch and steady, almost
like a reed. But she has no vibrato, and little shape to the sound she
sings, and her voice is not as conducive to duets or solos. This has
disappointed her greatly because she has wanted to and enjoyed singing
with me. (*Please* make no mention of this to my wife.)
And also, Jessica (my second daughter) plays the piano because Miranda (my
first) plays the violin. We were not looking for an orchestra or duet.
We were looking to give Jessica an identity of her own, not having to
measure up to a sister who is two years ahead in lessons.
We have different strengths and weaknesses. Try to think of your mates's
strengths and encourage those. Create or encourage an area where your
mate can shine where you do not.
In the Christian marriage, we know that the husband is the head of the
wife - but we also know the base of a Christian marriage is Christ-like
love. Even though mates are one and equal, there is a hierarchy and
dominance. That is to say that there is a proper context in which the
man is dominant, (and there is an improper context in which the man can
be dominant). The sexual act itself is neutral (I believe) but takes on
_starkly_ different connotations when performed within proper versus
improper contexts. The issue of Christ-like dominance (spiritual
leadership) and respect deals outside of the sexual aspect into just
about every other area.
Are you praised by your friends? Is your mate praised by your friends?
Do you praise your mate in front of others? (I got hammered in 1986
for telling fat, ugly wife jokes even though my wife was neither fat,
nor ugly. She clued me in that telling her that she was beautiful and
couldn't get enough of me in front of others would go a long way in
getting me more sex than telling fat, ugly wife jokes. I tried it for
a while, and it worked! I was *really* stupid, before. I'm probably just
plain stupid, now.)
Tell others within your mate's hearing (and when your mate is not around)
what you really like and admire about your mate. Tell your mate, when no
one is around. If you cannot do this with feelings of love and sincerity
at first, do it anyway as an act of love; the feeling *and* sincerity
*will* follow. Do it even when your mate does not respond in kind; and
even though it is harder, even after he's reacted poorly. Avoid being a
parent to your mate and work on being one flesh.
It is my belief that selflessness will wear down a heart of stone and
convict a man or woman of selfishness deeper than any other accusation.
It does not mean that you have to submit to a demand for sex that makes
you uncomfortable. Saying no is sometimes a response of love. But when
love exists and in the proper context, perhaps there is a place for a yes,
even when no kind of feels better. Anyway, sex is only a part of it.
The campaign of boosting respect must be consistent, and understood that
you are in it for the long haul. When you push a car, the first shove is
the toughest, but soon momentum can help get the car going.
You may only have eyes for your mate, but your mate may see a different
picture. Your mate may see your talents spotlighted while his or her
talents seem invisible. When one is in the spotlight, one belongs to
other people in a very real sense, and a mate can be jealous about
sharing you; a man particularly does not like that thought about his wife.
What does your mate have? (Your mate has you; or at least part of you
because you are shared.) What are your mates pursuits and interests?
(Yours may be in the church and you are affirmed by them.) How and where
is your mate affirmed? What are you doing about it?
Mark
|
| 38.70 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Feb 03 1994 17:41 | 7 |
| -1
Mark, incredible meat to chew on in there pahdner! :-)
Thanks for being so faithful in posting this gems.
Nancy
|
| 38.71 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Feb 03 1994 19:40 | 1 |
| and it was under 100 lines, too ;-)
|
| 38.72 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Feb 03 1994 19:48 | 3 |
| - 1
Yup, it was.. say did you notice the humor in the Bible note?
|
| 38.73 | Finances in Marriage | SUBURB::ODONNELLJ | Julie O'Donnell | Thu Feb 10 1994 17:24 | 10 |
| Sorry if this has already been answered elsewhere, but I couldn't find
anything, although I must admit I only looked briefly.
I will be promising to obey Huw when we get married. However, I am a
bit worried about the financial side of this. I seem to be better at
managing my finances than he is. Should I attempt to take on
responsibility for our finances or will I be disobeying or usurping his
authority by doing so? Would joint responsibility be acceptable? I've
read some Christian books on marriage, but they don't seem to cover
this.
|
| 38.74 | | DECLNE::YACKEL | and if not... | Thu Feb 10 1994 17:45 | 22 |
|
You should spend time and discuss this prior to getting married so that
you will have a good start financially. My wife handles the finances
and we both converse upon large or unusual expenses. We also discuss
the 'normal' everyday financial status so that we are both thinking on
the same level...ie: I may want to spend on something that can wait so
she asks me to not incurr the expense until later.
>or will I be disobeying or usurping his authority.
This statement disturbs me a little. God gives him the authority to
love you. So that through your love towards one another you will
become one. He also has the authority to be the Spiritual leader, with
this authority comes a great responsibility. You submit to his
authority because as he loves you as Christ loved the church you both
will become one in Spirit.
hope this helps,
Dan
p.s. others in here can explain it better.
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| 38.75 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Feb 10 1994 17:46 | 5 |
| .74
What Dan said.... Great Advice Dano!
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| 38.76 | Spend your $$$ together! | IVOS02::GREEN_RI | Bad Spellers of the World, Untie! | Thu Feb 10 1994 18:18 | 32 |
|
Hi Julie,
I can't really speak from the Bible per se, however being newly wed (1
year this April) I can share how Laura and I handle the $$$ in the
house.
To start with, all major financial decisions are made together.
This included writing a budget. Writing a joint budget had to be the
most taxing time of our premaratial counseling. Our Pastor insisted on
it, and I'm glad he did.
You said in your base note that you seem to be better at managing you
finances than your future hubby. I'd recommend that you find out why
that is. It may be that different things are important to him than to
you. Before we were married, I'd inwardly critize Laura for parting
with $200 at Norstrom for a dress. She'd have similar feelings when
I'd leave $50 in Tower Records, or $250 in Ham Radio Outlet.
Now, I am happy when she wears new clothes. I know that the money came
from the clothing fund in the budget (as opposed to the rent fund) and
that she is wearing exactly what she wants.
A book on the topic of money that I'd recommend is Larry Burkett's
_Debt_Free_Living_. The first few chapters are horibally depressing.
They are case studies of Larry's clients who fell into common financial
pitfalls.
I pray that marriage brings you as much (if not more) joy than it has
brought Laura and I
Rick Green
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| 38.77 | You need to know - NOW! | SIERAS::MCCLUSKY | | Thu Feb 10 1994 21:18 | 17 |
| Julie,
You seem to think that you are a better financial manager than your
husband to be - that sounds to me like you need to explore this area
much more fully. You should know and have a plan for how you are going
to manage the family budget, and you should each understand how the
other makes decisions, why past expenditures were made, what the
practices will be with tithing, special gifts, and emergency gifts. I
believe new couples should be showing individual budgets to each other
to help in that understanding. One important thing to remember,
marriage will not change the way you approach money management - you
need to know that now. This is one of the biggest problems in marriage
and it doesn't get better after the ceremony.
In His Love,
Daryl
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| 38.78 | | AUSSIE::CAMERON | and God sent him FORTH (Gen 3:23) | Fri Feb 11 1994 04:09 | 11 |
| Re: Note 38.73 by SUBURB::ODONNELLJ
Your husband to be would be advised to delegate the authority to you,
if you both recognise that you are better at it. Also, he can be the
authority in terms of setting the overall goals; just imagine if the
big banana of a corporation specified to the secretary in the mail room
how many drawing-pins to buy...
Hope that helps... Petria is calling me for dinner, have to go...
James
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| 38.79 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Fri Feb 11 1994 06:46 | 34 |
| Hi Julie,
When we were first married, Ros did the finances, because she was
interested and I wasn't. I soon realised that she felt it was a
'responsibility', so I took it over.
You need to be sure not only of how Huw feels about this now, but of how he
feels about it when the plan is running. As the years roll on, his
awareness of this may change, and he may wish to have increasing involvement.
Meanwhile, if he delegates that responsibility to you, as having a required
skill, to *not* do it would be usurping his authority ;-)
� Would joint responsibility be acceptable?
I'd say it's ideal, if you can hold it in balance. In fact, it *has* to be
a joint responsibility, for either to make reasonable decisions about how
much should be allocated to purchases for which the other is responsible.
� I've read some Christian books on marriage, but they don't seem to cover this.
Maybe Christian books specifically on finance?
� I will be promising to obey Huw when we get married.
Glad you take it seriously. So many think it usurps ones personal
integrity, when in fact it delineates scope, and acknowledges certain
responsibilities - in both directions. ie - Huw takes on a responsibility
to provide you with constraints you are comfortable with, as one whom he
loves, as much as you have elected to operate within them. But I guess the
books *must* have that, from Ephesians 5, etc! The point here is that
money does not equate to authority. It just has an incredibly high profile
in the world's cultures....
God bless
Andrew
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| 38.80 | If done right, it's not usurping... | RANDLF::BALSAMO | | Fri Feb 11 1994 09:24 | 22 |
| re: 38.73 <SUBURB::ODONNELLJ>
Julie,
>Should I attempt to take on responsibility for our finances or will I be
>disobeying or usurping his authority by doing so?
If you both agree, it is not usurping his authority or being
disobedient (I like unsubmissive better) if he delegates this
responsibility to you. Ultimately, he still remains answerable to God for
how your family unit handles the finances.
Since I work all day and Carolyn remains at home to care for Victoria,
she has a little more time to organize the finances, (balance the check
book, pay the bills, etc...) and she is very good at it. On a weekly
basis, we review our family finances and talk about what bills have been
paid that week; where are savings are at; how much we spent on groceries;
do we want to go out to eat this week; etc... Sometimes, I have to "line-
item veto" some things. :-)
Hope this helps,
Tony
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| 38.81 | just my .02 worth | 24004::SPARKS | I have just what you need | Tue Feb 15 1994 09:57 | 22 |
| I agree with the others, if it is delegated then it's fine. A couple
of other points on finances in marriage, from someone who has done it
wrong once, then right.
If possible use a joint account, I've seen lots of distrust start over
separate accounts.
Make joint decisions on anything over pocket change, this may sound
like overkill, but it also keeps you communicating.
If one spouse does the budget, offer to write out the checks
or at least stamp and mail the envelope, keep involved somehow so the
spouse doesn't feel taken advantage of.
Be sure to budget for an allowance for each, of which there is NO
accountability, my wife thinks my Thomas the tank engine stuff is a
waste of money, I think writing letters on fancy stationary over paper
is a waste. Even if it is small, be sure to do this.
BTW Congrats, and have a wonderful marriage.
Sparky
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| 38.82 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Feb 15 1994 11:22 | 17 |
| > If possible use a joint account, I've seen lots of distrust start over
> separate accounts.
In our pre-marital counselling, we were given advice that I think was very
good. It's not incompatible with your statement above.
We were told to be sure that each of us kept all or part of our money
separate so that we would not always be having to discuss what to spend
money on.
Initially we implemented this in a single joint account, but we kept two
separate check registers; the actual balance in the account was the sum of
the two registers. Now we have two completely separate joint accounts.
It has worked well; we have never in 22 years argued over money.
/john
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| 38.83 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Feb 15 1994 11:23 | 26 |
| Some startling statistics about marriage... please forgive me as I
heard these on the radio this morning and cannot back them up other
then with my own integrity of memory:
6 out of 10 marriages divorce in 1990s
60-70% of 2nd marriages divorce
60-70% of married couples who are surviving are unhappy
My Pastor is going to start this Sunday a series on "MORALITY IN THE
FAMILY" that will run for 5 weeks. The main topic will be adultery and
fornication. To go along with the statistics above, my Pastor has
announced a study that says 75% of ALL marriages will suffer an
adulterous affair... and in the churches it's nearing 50%. Its true in
my own church [and before you go judging my church], and its one of the
greatest in all of America. We run an average of 17-1800 per week with
the adult base at 1000. God has blessed North Valley inspite of the
secret sin... but its not secret anymore. My Pastor will be addressing
the important ingredients of a marriage and how to get over an affair
that has already happened.
Please pray for my Pastor as he deals with this delicate situation.
Also, I have posted an announcement of this event on the Digital
Bulletin Board... pray that folks will come.
Nancy
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| 38.84 | | SUBURB::ODONNELLJ | Julie O'Donnell | Thu Feb 17 1994 03:59 | 12 |
| It's exactly the previous statistics that worry me, although we both
believe that once he's got me down that aisle, he's stuck with me :-).
Thanks for all your advice, both online and off. It's been very
helpful and I feel a lot less muddled on the subject than I did.
Neither of us is from a Christian family and so I don't actually have a
model to use except from couples in my Church and in here.
He told me the other night that actually he was only PRACTISING when he
proposed - I took the thing far too literally in flinging my arms round
him and saying YES :-) It's a good job I appreciate his sense of
humour :-)
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| 38.85 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Thu Feb 17 1994 06:33 | 8 |
| � He told me the other night that actually he was only PRACTISING when he
� proposed - I took the thing far too literally in flinging my arms round
;-) good one ... ;-)
I find it an unfortunate usage, that doctors practise on their patients as
well...
Andrew
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| 38.86 | | SUBURB::ODONNELLJ | Julie O'Donnell | Thu Feb 17 1994 08:24 | 1 |
| Knew it was one or the other :-)
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| 38.87 | Covenant Marriage | MIMS::CASON_K | | Thu Feb 17 1994 15:56 | 17 |
| Perhaps someone can fill in the gaps for me. I heard the last part of
a news report where a state (gap 1, state unknown) is considering
instituting what they called a covenant marriage. In applying for a
licence, the couple could either get the standard licence or the
covenant marriage licence. The difference is that the couple agrees
that this covenant marriage can never be dissolved/divorced/put
away/etc.. If at some point in the future the couple decides that they
can no longer remain together then they can petition a judge who can,
after extensive counseling with a pastor and/or a marriage counselor,
legally separate them but the marriage remains valid. The news report
said that this was in an attempt to get prospective couples to take
marriage more seriously.
I wonder where they got the idea for this.
Kent
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| 38.88 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Feb 17 1994 16:22 | 3 |
| Believe it or not it sounds more like the Mormons then anything else.
:-)
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| 38.89 | | MIMS::CASON_K | | Thu Feb 17 1994 16:39 | 4 |
| Could have been Utah. Like I said, I didn't catch which state. But I
don't think that the intention of this covenant is to populate another
planet.
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| 38.90 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Feb 17 1994 17:11 | 8 |
| Oh I dunno about that? Do you have any idea how powerful the Mormon
Church really is? Talk about land and business ownerships... its a
very large organization. The land is typically used in a welfare sort
of way, where the workers on the farm are housed, clothed and fed for
their labor. This is for people who normally would be on welfare.
These farms produce much of the crops used on our produce market.
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| 38.91 | just askin' - no ratholes please | DYPSS1::DYSERT | Barry - Custom Software Development | Thu Feb 17 1994 23:19 | 7 |
| That's odd. Just a few days ago I heard from someone in California that
a "covenant marriage" was in the offing. I understood from them,
though, that the term was being used to denote a same-sex marriage. Has
anyone else heard what is meant by this term? I would hate to think
that the same term is being used to mean such vastly different things.
BD�
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| 38.92 | ex | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri Feb 18 1994 00:33 | 7 |
| A covenant marriage as explained in the previous note sounds like
mormonism...
California is trying to pass a law about same sex marriages, I don't
believe that covenant is the term used... but it could be.
|
| 38.93 | Shades of Nero again | FRETZ::HEISER | shut up 'n' jam! | Fri Feb 18 1994 11:46 | 1 |
|
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| 38.94 | | MIMS::CASON_K | | Fri Feb 18 1994 14:06 | 15 |
| Actually, just following the report of the covenant marriage was a
report on cohabitation benefits in California. They are attempting to
allow cohabitants, male-female/male-male/female-female, to have the same
benefits as married couples. It was not restricted to same-sex but was
inclusive.
BTW, Nancy, what part sounds like Mormonism. Maybe I didn't explain it
right because it sounded to me like two people making a Biblical
decision to covenant together in marriage for the duration of their
earthly lives together. I don't recall any impliction that the
marriage lasted past death. I would have keyed in on Romans 7 if I had
heard that.
Kent
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| 38.95 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri Feb 18 1994 14:28 | 6 |
| The word covenant was used in the marriage ceremony "in the temple" of
a very close friend of mind... the term convenant took on the meaning
of past death... that is why I associate the word with mormon
marriages.
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| 38.96 | | CNTROL::JENNISON | Troubleshootin' Mama | Tue Sep 13 1994 14:17 | 28 |
|
Today marks 9 years from the day I first met Jamie.
A friend invited me to a beach party, and said we'd be
riding with another friend of hers. Jamie turned out
to be that friend.
The party was on a Friday night (yup, Friday the 13th!),
and we quite a bit of weekend traffic. It was a sun-showery
day, and as we sat I traffic, I stared at a beautiful rainbow
and day-dreamed while Jamie and my friend chatted. All of
a sudden, they noticed the rainbow and got all excited. Jamie
said it was the most beautiful rainbow he'd ever seen. I
said, "Oh, yeah, I've been staring at that for about 10 minutes
now!" Jamie and Cheryl were a bit perturbed that I didn't let
them in on my secret ;-)
Anyway, last fall during our marriage ministries course, we
studied covenants. As part of the study, we read the account
of Noah, the covenant between him and God, and the rainbow.
The point of the lesson was the covenant we made when we
married. During the homework, Jamie and I reflected on
the rainbow on the day we met, wondering if it was God's
affirmation of His plan for us.
I like to remember that on this day.
Karen
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| 38.97 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Sep 13 1994 14:27 | 8 |
| Karen,
How romantic and special. Another evidence of His presence in our
lives. Though I dare say some would not see it no matter how brilliant
the rainbow is.
Hugs,
Nancy
|