Conference yukon::christian_v7

    >Jacob at the instigation of his mother,
    >Rebecca,  stealthily....
    
    Funny how there's always a woman egging the man on.
    
    8*)
    
    Richard

    Proverbs is probably the most relative book to go through to answer
    your question about *words* and their consequences.
    
    In Proverbs the first scripture that comes to mind is a word spoken in
    due season is very sweet a contrasting scripture is the
    one that says it is better to dwell on a rooftop then in a house with a
    *brawling* woman... :-)
    
    Words are powerful, remember God *spoke* the world into existence. 
    God's *words* are quick and powerful and sharper then any two-edged
    sword.  The *word* of God is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for
    instruction in righteousness.
    
    Tis better to not vow a vow, then to vow a vow to God and break it!
    
    Once the words have been spoken, as in creation, they now have been given
    existence. Have you ever spoken in wrath, then apologized?  But the person 
    to whom you have spoken has already been effected by the angry words.
    
    Words are powerful, for with the mouth confession is made unto 
    salvation.

I'm rambling,    
Nancy
    

re: Note 35.0         Jacob and Esau      

    Mike,
    
>    In Genesis, chapter 27, Isaac, in his old age bestows his blessing on
>    Jacob instead of Esau.  Jacob at the instigation of his mother,
>    Rebecca,  stealthily acquires the blessing of his father through
>    subterfuge.  When Isaac realized his mistake, why couldn't he re-issue
>    the blessing to the rightful recipient?
>    Is there some unmentioned power or dynamic at work here with regard to
>    the spoken word?  Are there other examples of the irrevocable power of
>    the word to be instrumental in determining or having a causative impact
>    on a situation or circumstance?

One aspect of how this turned out should be kept in mind. The way this
ended up with the younger being served by the older (which was not the norm)
was revealed to Rebekah by Jehovah. This was when the infants were struggling
in her womb and she inquired of Jehovah as to the meaning of this. Jehovah
said that two national groups would be separated from her inward parts and
one would be stronger then the other and the older would serve the younger. 
(Gen 25:22,23).
Also, Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a meal of stew and bread. He did 
this with a sworn oath, thereby giving up any right to his birthright, showing
how little he valued it. (Gen 25:29-34). In spite to this when Isaac asked 
Esau to hunt for venison and make a meal for him of it Esau started out to do
this even though he was no longer entitled to blessing as 1st born. He would
have been breaking his own oath (his agreement with Jacob) if he had accepted
Isaac's blessing. Basically, Esau wasn't being too honest now was he?
I mentioned at the start about Jehovah revealing information to Rebekah.
Because of this information, and knowing what Esau was trying to do was wrong,
was probably why Rebekah intervened and helped Jacob.
As it ended up Isaac wouldn't retract his blessing. It may have been because
he perceived Jehovah's direction in the matter. Isaac told Esau, as had been
revealed to Rebekah, "your brother you will serve" (Gen 27:40)
                                                              

Genesis 49 records Jacob's own blessings upon his sons before he dies.  
This was prophecy.  Not prediction, or optimistic (or pessimistic) last 
wishes.  It was not in Jacob's power to reverse them.

I sometimes think it would be interesting to know what would have happened 
had Rebecca not intervened.  What God would have given Jacob as words of 
blessing for each of his sons, and how he would have come to terms with 
it...

�    Are there other examples of the irrevocable power of the word to be 
�    instrumental in determining or having a causative impact on a situation 
�    or circumstance?
    
In Judges 9:14-15, Joshua does not question the Gibeonites lie, that they
have come from outside the region, so makes a treaty with them.  Although
this is in contravention of the LORD's command (Deuteronomy 7:2), because
the word is given, it stands as an oath before the LORD.  So when the
nation returned to the LORD, after some unrecorded incidents under King
Saul, they needed cleansing from an attempted purge of the Gibeonites (2
Samuel 21:1). 

								Andrew

    I for one do not believe that the power of the spoken word is as
    powerful as some would make it seem. Man, in and of himslef, does not
    have the power to enact creation from his spoken word the way God does.
    However, God places a lot of importance on the words that come out of
    our mouth. O.T. law stated that once a man makes a vow God will require 
    of him its fulfillment. I would think the same would hold true of a
    father's blessing.
    
     Isaac's words had no power to cause Jacob to rule or Esau to serve,
    since Isaac was only a mortal man. However, Isaac, like Jacob after
    him, apparently was prophesying when he spoke these things. If this was
    the case then the Holy Spirit was behind these words and thus they
    would come to pass.
    
     Sandy had some good background on where Rebekah, Isaac, Esau and even
    the LORD were coming from in the situation.
    
     Another instance that shows God puts importance to what we say is
    found in Matthew 12:33-37 where Jesus tells the Pharisees that a man is
    to be judged by even the idle words that come out of his mouth since
    thay reveal what is in his heart.
    
    So be careful what you say.
    
    To sum it up, OUr words are important to God and should be to us as
    weel. Thay do not have any mystical destiny setting power as some
    misled You-Create-Your-Own-Reality folks believe. Words can build up
    and tear down people though (James 3:1-12). So please, season your
    words, written as well as verbal, with generous amounts of love.
    
    Gil

Hi,

I agree with Gil.  I shy away from the teaching that man's words carry the
creative power similar to God's.

However, we must all be well aware of the damage, or the life, that we can
bring by our words (life and death are in the power of the tongue).  I'm
sort of in the process of putting together a lengthy teaching on slander,
etc.  As soon as it's done, I'll drop it in here for further discussion.

Rob

    
    In Matthew 5 Jesus himself had some teaching regarding vows and a 
    person's word. The verses I had in mind are found at Matt 5:33-37.
    From the NWT verses 33 "Again YOU heard that it was said to those of
    ancient times,'You must not swear without performing, but you must
    pay your vows to Jehovah.' 34 However, I say to YOU: Do not swear at
    all, neither by heaven, because it is God's throne; 35 nor by earth,
    because it is the footstool of his feet; nor by Jerusalem, because
    it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor by you head must you swear,
    because you cannot turn one hair white or black. 37 Just let YOUR
    word Yes mean Yes, YOUR No, No; for what is in excess of these is from
    the wicked one. 
    
    I see this as meaning that we need to be sure of what we commit our-
    selves to because we're held to it in Jehovah's eyes. In God's eyes
    verbal agreements are as binding as written ones are to this world's 
    court systems; maybe even more so in some cases. 
    
     robin 

    :-)
    
    Boy, it never ceases to amaze me how an analogy can turn into a
    religion!!!! Yikes!
    
    You guys do realize when I said once a word has been spoken that it is
    now in existence, where it weren't before... thus words create
    or become as Gil said evidence of what is in the heart.
    
    Why am I explaining...seems simple to me.
    
    Nancy

Matt 5:33-37 KJV
Again, ye have heard it that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:  But
I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven, for it is God's
throne: nor by earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem;
for it is the city of the great King.  Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, 
because thou canst not make one hair white or black.  But let your 
communication be, yea, yea; nay, nay; for whatsoever is more than these 
cometh of evil.

	Yes, but..

	Keep in mind that the Lord works *thru* men as His deputy authorities.
So that "whatsoever things you bind on earth shall be bound in the heavens,
and whosoever things you loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens".
This indicates that the Lord's purpose is dependent upon the church's binding
and loosing on the earth. How do we bind and loose? By prayer which is uttered
from our spirit through our lips back to God.

	In this sense we do speak things into being.

Regards,
Ace

There are some interesting replies here.  I notice many reference later
scriptural texts especially the N. T.  I'm of the belief that there must
be more to this story than merely to dismiss it as another of the many
instances of Divine Providence in action.
Word power and mysticism aside, a venerable old man, a patriarch if you
will, has been maligned by trickery.  Upon discovering the deception, 
Isaac was intensly angered.  This was definitely not the same condition
of prophesy that Jacob would later pronounce on Joseph's sons.

Just as Isaac's eyes were unable to discern the truth, we might miss the
message too if we do not attempt to examine the text for a lesson.
It seems significant that Isaac makes six specific entreaties trying to
identify the correct son to whom the blessing is to be given.  These
six proofs or tests involve all five senses as well as intuition.  
I believe this indicates very subtly a deeper meaning to be conveyed.
For me, the metaphor of sight is too strong, not only here but else-
where in scripture to be ignored.  The vulnerability of faith, even
when tempered with judicious examination, is demonstrated most profoundly
in this story of mixed blessing.
    
    Mike
    
    
    

.11>Upon discovering the deception, Isaac was intensly angered. This was 
.11>definitely not the same condition of prophesy that Jacob would later 
.11>pronounce on Joseph's sons.

Let's take another look, Mike:

Genesis 27:33 KVJ
And Isaac trembled very exceedingly, and said, Who? where is he that 
hath taken venison, and brought it to me, and I have eaten of all before
thou camest, and have blessed him? yea, and he shall be blessed.

Yes, Isaac seems to be angry, BUT in the same breath declares his word
to be binding.

>I believe this indicates very subtly a deeper meaning to be conveyed.
>For me, the metaphor of sight is too strong, not only here but else-
>where in scripture to be ignored.  The vulnerability of faith, even
>when tempered with judicious examination, is demonstrated most profoundly
>in this story of mixed blessing.

Then please elaborate so we may understand your meaning more clearly.

Also examine again who were the persons in the wrong.  Certainly Jacob
for his deception, but also Esau for the despising (and selling) of
his birthright, and *even* Isaac for intending to thwart the prophecy
in Genesis 25:23 declared by God:

  And the Lord said unto her [Rebekah], Two nations are in thy womb,
and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one
people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall
serve the younger.

  So the "vulnerability of faith" seems to be a failure of faith and
not vulnerability of a [supposed] strong faith.  Isaac wanted, by evidence,
to follow tradition with the firstborn rather than the prophecy of God.
God foretold otherwise so that no matter what the intent was on the parts
of Isaac, Esau, Jacob, and rebekah, His Word remains True.

Mark

    -.1 (Mark)
    
>Isaac wanted, by evidence,
>to follow tradition with the firstborn rather than the prophecy of God.
    
    Dunno if he wanted to follow tradition so much as his own heart.
    Earlier in the passage we are told that Isaac loved Esau and Rebecca
    loved Jacob.  Ultimately, it is this love that motivates each of them
    to do what they did.
    
    Isaac loved Esau.  The last thing he wanted to do was fulfill God's
    will by giving Jacob the blessing.  He wanted to bless the son he
    loved.  Is it possible that Isaac, knowing that Jacob was God choice,
    made sure that Rebecca knew of his request to Esau to get him some
    game, so that she could set up the 'trick'?  That Rebecca's trick
    enabled Isaac to accomplish God's will without breaking his heart?
    That Isaac knew all along that it was Jacob and not Esau that he
    was blessing (count how many times he asks "is it really you?  how'd
    you do it so fast?  it's not Esau's voice?")?  
    
    Oh, well.  It's a theory! :)
    
    Sue

It is a plausible theory, but a theory.  And I don't differ with you either,
Sue about Isaac loving Esau (the firstborn) and this fact does not conflict
with tradition.  :-)

Mark

    
    Rebecca is the one who shares the greatest guilt in the story.
    She chose not to let Esau receive the blessing of his father in
    a mis-guided attempt to "help" God's prophesy along.
    Her lack of faith in God's capability of handling the foretold
    pre-eminence of her son Jacob brands her as the one "of little
    faith."
    
    Mike
    

Greatest guilt?

Jacob had only needed to say no.
Isaac determined to bless Esau.

Sorry, plenty of guilt to go around.

MM

    An Evangelist, John Goetsch that recently preached in my church, said
    something that really had an impact on me, it was,
    
    "God doesn't need to use *sin* to get His will accomplished."
    
    Nancy

...And how foolish to think we can change God's will by our own [contrived]
means.  And *this* is one of the lessons I take from this passage.

Thanks, Nancy.

� Re    <<< Note 35.5 by MCIS2::BERNIER "Quit Ye Like Men... 1 Cor 16:13,14" >>>
Hi Gil,

�    I for one do not believe that the power of the spoken word is as
�    powerful as some would make it seem. 

I didn't think this was the point under discussion?  I understood the
paternal farewell 'blessing' in certain cases (including this one) to be a
word of prophesy given from the LORD, rather than coming in any way from 
the mind of the father pronouncing it.

As per 2 Peter 1:21
 "For prophecy never had it's origin in the will of man, but men spoke from 
  God as they were caried along by the Holy Spirit."

- but this is what you put later on...  maybe I've picked you up on a
wrong tack here... 

Words can be significant in terms of spoken blessings and curses, on self, 
as well as upon others, but their effect is limited upon those who can 
recognise and claim the power of the Blood to cover them.

Fear etc (especially spoken) gives a door for the enemy to enter with a
curse, as in Job 3:25, but perfect love casts out fear, etc (1 John 4:18)


	"They overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb
		and by the Word of their testimony;
	 they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death"

						Revelation 12:11

 	- and the 'him' who is overcome is explicitly the accuser...


Would Isaac have been so ready to accept and deliver the Word of the LORD 
if he had fully realised (rather than just suspected) the swap?

What effect did this experience have upon Jacob, when the LORD moved him to 
cross his hands for Ephraim and Manasseh's blessing in Genesis 48:14...19-20
Admittedly he didn't have the vested interest of favoritism, as far as we 
know.  But I would think this must have made quite a moving recollection 
for him....

� "God doesn't need to use *sin* to get His will accomplished."

Amen.  And I sometimes wonder about the people who have a promise from the 
LORD, and yet seem to think they have to take it's fulfillment in to their 
own hands.  Like Jeroboam...  Setting up idols to retain the tribes the 
LORD promised and gave him, in spite of God's offer to make him a dynasty 
if he remained faithful.  Crazy guy.....

� -< I'm with Gil, hi Gil :-) >-
	Got back to Dresden yet, Rob ? ;-)

								'rew