Conference yukon::christian_v7

�    How can we handle the uncovering of secret sin and when does healing
�    begin?
    
1 Peter 4:8
	Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a
	multitude of sins.

James 5:13-20      Some relevant snippets:
	15: The prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; The 
	    LORD will raise him up.  If he has sinned he will be forgiven.

	16: Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each 
	    other so that you may be healed.  The prayer of a righteous man 
	   is powerful and effective.

	19: My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and 
	    someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a 
	     sinner from the error of his way will save him from death, and 
	    cover over a multitude of sins.

Galatians 6:1-2

	Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual 
	should restore him gently.  But watch yourself, or you also may
	be tempted.  Carry each others burdens, and in this way you will
	fulfil the law of Christ.

The love in the fellowship should be such that no-one feels either 
threatened, nor obliged to pretend to be what they're not.  Just all 
learning to know Him together.  Then when the Holy Spirit highlights an 
area in our lives needing attention, help is at hand, and we're all willing 
the fallen one to be upright again - encouraging, not condemning.

At least - this is where it starts with true repentance.

							love
								'rew

    >The love in the fellowship should be such that no-one feels either
    >threatened, nor obliged to pretend to be what they're not.  Just all
    >learning to know Him together.  Then when the Holy Spirit highlights an
    >area in our lives needing attention, help is at hand, and we're all
    >willing
    >the fallen one to be upright again - encouraging, not condemning.
    
    >At least - this is where it starts with true repentance.
    
    I, for one, would not feel comfortable going to my church body to
    unconver my secret sin, as a matter of fact, I'd probably not feel
    comfortable going to my Pastor...
    
    Am I the only one with these inhibitions?  I don't see "agape" in my
    church family... well, there is to some extent, but not to the extent
    of feeling safe to uncover a "secret sin".
    
    But God did provide for me... He provided someone with whom I *know* I
    am safe, that loves God first, and is able to offer me unconditional
    love as a result of that.
    
    But it didn't happen in my church body... sigh.... that grieves me. 
    Not sure the implications of that, just yet.
    
    Nancy
    

� confession out loud to another human being who has "agape", helped me.  As I 
� swallowed pride and shame, and laid my secret sin at God's altar, He forgave 
� me and released me from its power.

� If you have a secret sin in your life, it does have power over you... DENYING 
� that power, only more feeds the sin.  

Amen.  There is a threat that something concealed will be revealed.  The 
enemy holds that threat over us like a sword of Damocles.  

Failing to deal with the sin leaves us 'afraid' to face God, and, hiding
from Him behind the fig-leaves of our imagination, increasingly in the grip
of the sin we're ashamed of, and the fear of discovery. 

Confessing it as per James 5:16 breaks the grip, and I can witness that
this brings terrific freedom of heart.  We are taken from the devil's area
of accusation and condemnation (Zechariah 3:1), into the LORD's area of
cleansing and forgiveness.  I know where I want to live... - where He has
bought me the right to live! 

Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen?
 	- It is God Who justifies.
Who is it that condemns?  Jesus Christ, who died ...?
	- more than that,  ... is at the right hand of God and IS ALSO 
	  INTERCEDING FOR US.

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
...................
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors...

- ie remember that the LORD Jesus died to save us, and is still working to
complete us - Philippians 1:6 - He Who began a good work in you will carry
it on to completion until the day of CHrist Jesus. 

The accuser is the devil, who is doomed to get it in the neck anyway.  
Don't cower before that defeated puppet.

								love
									'rew

    >The accuser is the devil, who is doomed to get it in the neck anyway.
    >Don't cower before that defeated puppet.
    
    I loved that line!!!  What a wonderful image for debilitating Satan's
    power over us... Amen!
    
    Nancy

�    I, for one, would not feel comfortable going to my church body to
�    uncover my secret sin, as a matter of fact, I'd probably not feel
�    comfortable going to my Pastor...

Ug!  NOT the church body - that only comes in the last stage of the
unrepented sin / discipline situation of Matthew 18:15-17 

James refers first to 'elders', and second to 'each other'.  To me, that 
says that the elders might be expected to be trustworthy in this sense (but 
I wouldn't feel comfortable ....).  The 'each other' sounds as if we can 
choose someone we feel we can trust.  Thta person is acting as an 'elder'
in that respect, bearing in mind that from Galatians 6:!, the roles could
be reversed at another time... 

The reason elders are specified in James is, I would imagine, because the 
sort of integrity expected of them is laid down in 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1 
etc, to minimise danger of setting up a sin cell in the church...

�    Am I the only one with these inhibitions?  
EVERYONE has these inhibitions, unless they are hiding behind pride.  
Either a puffed up sort, or an inverted pride of sin... - not Christians.

�	I don't see "agape" in my church family... well, there is to some
�	extent, but not to the extent of feeling safe to uncover a "secret 
�	sin". 
Someone at my church said much the same to me this morning.
    
�    But it didn't happen in my church body... sigh.... that grieves me. 
�    Not sure the implications of that, just yet.

It means that you're at the forefront of something the LORD has to teach 
your church.  Be loving.  Be accepting.  Be the person who can speak the 
LROD into the heart and situation of the broken hearted who are seeking the 
way back into His presence.

It may be difficult.  The leadership may resent this, or ignore.  *Maybe*
they will recognise and value the message the LORD is giving through you.

But you will be born up by the love and prayers of those who are blessed 
into the LORD's presence, through His work in / through you.

Prayer pointer?

							love
								'rew

    .6
    
    'rew, I agree with what you have written here in regards to
    "unconfessed sin" in front of the entire church body...
    
    But what so poorly expressed was that there wasn't *one* person in my
    church, whom I felt I could go to.
    
    That is what concerns me.
    
    Nancy

    Unrelated interjection...
    
    I've tended to believe that God will forgive me if I confess to Him,
    and that I don't actually need anybody here on Earth to confess to.
    So I've not had this sort of problem with secret sin.  Such sins remain
    secret between me and God.  Bringing them out into the open with other
    people may not be a good idea.
    
    My wife gets some confessions from me that don't go further, but in
    that case I'm actually asking her to help me to resist further
    temptation.

    .8
    
    James, 
    
    This is all *so* very true... and many can do this with great relief and
    comfort from God.  However, for some it requres the bonding of agape 
    as demonstrated through a brother/sister in Christ.  This is a very 
    powerful way of reaching into the depths of broken hearts.
    
    For many of us,the concept of a loving father (human), is merely that,a
    concept, not a reality.  As humans, we tend to believe God's love as
    closely resembling our father's.  Therefore, to be able to reconcile our 
    earthly parental images to God's agape, is near to impossible to accomplish
    alone.  

    However, when a person filled with the Holy Spirit, eminates the
    *Father's* unconditional love, we can then receive Him in a
    more vivid way.
    
    Also, on the side, God did not create us to be solo, to ourselves, he 
    created within each of us the need for bonding with the human spirit.  
    As you, James, your mate should be the one to whom your heart's hidden
    secrets are disclosed.. as for any married couple.
    
    For folks like me, God rises one to meet that need.
    
    Nancy
    
    

    "If we CONFESS our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins
    and to CLEANSE us from ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.  I John 1:9, KJV
    
Dear Family,

I want to call your attention to something that plagues each of us, secret 
sin.  It permeates within the Christian family to break down its defenses 
against Satan.  It is oftimes secret sin that destroys marriages, harms our 
children, consumes our teenagers and plagues our elderly.

Not all of the time, but much of the time secret sin is something that an 
individual holds so very shameful, that its power oftimes controls them.  
I've heard many testify that it feels as though consumption has taken place, 
and they have been swallowed by the behavior, to the point, of not being able 
to stop.

Others, have testified, that when the temptation comes, they easily choose to 
accept it or reject it in the name of Christ.  

Due to the abuse in my life, testimony in 38.43 of CHRISTIAN_V6, some secret 
sins were adopted to cover up the pain of the abuse.  Now many will believe 
that it wasn't sin, because it was a natural reaction... sigh, but sin is 
natural!!! :-)

God provided unconditional love, so many of us need that unconditional love, 
and yet as readily available as it is, we do not take advantage of its gift.
Sometimes, I think my secret sin is even hidden from God!! :-)  How silly, 
you might say, but have you ever done that?

I'm not sure what kind of discussion this may spark, but I do know, that 
confession out loud to another human being who has "agape", helped me.  As I 
swallowed pride and shame, and laid my secret sin at God's altar, He forgave 
me and released me from its power.

If you have a secret sin in your life, it does have power over you... DENYING 
that power, only more feeds the sin.  

God's words says that *ALL* things (sin and service) will be revealed, 
nothing will be hidden.  The thought of my standing before the almighty God 
with unconfessed, secret,  sin in my heart to be revealed to everyone in 
the Lambs  Book of Life, leaves me petrified.  

I'd rather take care of it now... wouldn't you?

Nancy


    
    

�                          -< Agree to .8 to a Degree >-
So is it Dr. James Cameron now? ;-)
	sorry ...... to jest on what is a serious problem with the church.

When I referred to finding someone else to share with, it didn't have to be
in the church, as in 'local assembly' - how about a missionary, or church
planting situation, where the missioner may be out of contact with the home
church.  Special situation, for which the LORD provides, but He also cares
for the gems of His flock who are 'planted out' amongst Christians who are,
say, immature enough to value the things of this world too highly - even to
elect elders with eyes blinded by the world's idea of authority and
respectability.... 

Of course, it *should* be found there, but it's a sad truth that very 
often, it's not.  Sometimes the LORD can raise up a confidante from the
most unexpected places.  I have found this to be true.  I have asked for
impossible things (in terms of human contact), thinking I was effectively
'throwing away' the prayer, only to find, maybe over a few days, weeks or 
months, that He could move mountains and liberate prisoners.  That He could 
open doors I had thought were walls.

We have such a precious Saviour.  He has suffered for us so much already.
Protect His place in your heart; keep it holy so that He might dwell there 
without being grieved.....

I am also aware that many people have sought and found relief in counseling 
and support through contacting others in this conference privately.  I 
believe this is to be encouraged.  That is one way in which the body is 
built up and encouraged in faith and walk, as we have opportunity to 
express to each other what He gives us - either publicly or privately, as 
is appropriate to the situation.

� However, for some it requires the bonding of agape as demonstrated
� through a brother/sister in Christ.  This is a very powerful way of 
� reaching into the depths of broken hearts.

I would say that without this there is serious danger, and it shouldn't be 
attempted.  That agap� is essential to know what to say, and even more 
important, what not to say.  We can too easily speak hard truth out of logic, 
instead of gentle truth out of love.  The former is addressed at the head; 
the latter at the heart.  Where the two conflict, the consultee (?) is torn 
in half - given the law, reponsibility, and burden, but without the motivation 
and impetus welling up from the love of the LORD in his heart.

Re the fatherhood of God paragraph; I think I never *really* identified 
'God the Father' with the same image as an earthly human father.  Not sure 
why, except that I had first impressed upon me the awesomeness of God, the 
Holy One, Jehovah.  To that was added His agap� through Jesus' Blood.  And the 
so moving way in which He dealt with me personally, day by day.  This 
became the real meaning of Father to me.  OK, so I had an earthly father
who bore that name, and obviously in human flesh, fell short of that
eternal perfection.  That didn't matter.  None of us (including the 'me' of 
whom I was most aware) attained that image.  We are all still being molded 
under the potter's hand.  But His is the image we (who accept the cleansing
of the blood of Jesus) are all being molded towards, whether as fathers,
parents - single or double, singles (like Jesus)...  And we are all his
children. 

						God bless
							Andrew

>It may be difficult.  The leadership may resent this, or ignore.  *Maybe*
>they will recognise and value the message the LORD is giving through you.

They may also be slow (being able to see only their plans for direction).
It could be that the plans are great on paper, but not where the Lord
is leading.  (I know we digress a bit, but just a bit more.)

What *is* difficult is persevering while the leadership is slow to see the
"forefront of what God has for the church."  The leadership must and will
lead and we will not, and that's the difficult part.  This is why we must
pray for our leadership, for their wisdom and yieldedness to the Lord's
direction.  The forefront is not an easy position.  Ask any goose flying
south; it is easier to be follinwing in the wake of the forerunner.
Nevertheless, remember was Jesus said to Peter (because he also says it
to you and me: "What is that to you?  You must follow Me."

Hi,

Sorry, but I just sort of flew over the other replies, but thought that I would
add my 0,02pfennigs (cents :-).

Even in the Old Testament, the idea of "hidden" or secret sin is that, once
the sin becomes known, the person is guilty (the only exception being when
he touched a dead/unclean animal).  So, I would say, off the top of my head,
that as long as it is "hidden" from you, you are innocent.  Once it becomes
apparent to you (when bringing your gift to the altar, and you there remember
that someone has aught...or someone comes to you in a Matt. 18 context), you
are guilty and must repent.  If your sin is revealed to you through your
own personal reading of scriptures, you must repent.  The emphasis being: when
it has been revealed, you are guilty.  Until then, you have still sinned, but
you are not trying to conceal it, you just have not "seen" it, yet, and are 
"innocent".

If the situation is sin that you are aware of, and that you are refusing to
repent of (ie you are trying to conceal) that is a different matter. From
Proverbs (KJV):

     28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper; but whoso
     confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

In 2 Timothy it says:

     3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of  God,  and  is
     profitable  for  doctrine,  for reproof, for correction, for
     instruction in righteousness:
     3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished
     unto all good works.

ie the scriptures are sufficient (both in the Matt. 18 context and in personal
reading) to reprove.  Although a better word in this case may be to convict,
ie to prove guilt.  In other words, the Word of God is useful for proving our
guilt to us.  Those who counsel must become proficient in the use of the Bible
to teach, convict, correct (set up right again) and instruct in righteousness,
all those who sin (that's all of us :-).

Q: What about sins that I commit that, because I am so used to doing them, I 
do not recognize as sin?

A: See above.  When the Holy Spirit convicts you through His Word, either in
personal devotions, through confrontation from another brother/sister, you are
guilty.  One of the problems that we all have to deal with is the fact that
this "body of death" that we still walk around in is still habitually sinful.
The "old man" that we are to be "taking off" and replacing with the "new man",
is so used to sin, that he (the old man) does it without thinking.  This then
grieves the Holy Spirit, and He then goes about to convict us via the Word of
our sin.

Q:  What if I was raised in a situation where I had a bad father-image, and
now have a problem relating to God?

A:  This can be two-fold.  One, perhaps our earthly father was over-bearing
and we always had the feeling that we had done something wrong, and he just
wasn't telling us.  ie he was holding something against us, angry at us, but
we never knew why.  God is NOT that kind of father!!!  ie Philippians:

     3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high  cal-
     ling of God in Christ Jesus.
     3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus  mind-
     ed;  and  if  in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall
     reveal even this unto you.

Two, our earthly father was unapproachable, ie we couldn't come to him with
problems.  From Isaiah:

     1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith  the  LORD:
     though  your  sins  be as scarlet, they shall be as white as
     snow; though they be red like  crimson,  they  shall  be  as
     wool.

(as just one example).  God's heart and desire (see Genesis 3 also, where God
went looking for Adam, calling after him...or the parables of seeking that 
which was lost, etc.) is to seek us, and see us reconciled to Him.  He is 
always approachable and forgiving.

In general, although many people will tell that this happens, and it does, it
is wrong to compare your Holy Father with your earthly father, period!

Q:  When do I need to go to confess my sin to another person?

A:  Again a multiple answer:

1)  When you have sinned against a person.  God's heart is not only reconcil-
iation with Him, but also between persons.  If you have sinned against a per-
son, you must try to be reconciled with that person.

Part of the reconciliation process should be to enlist the offended person's 
help in overcoming the sin in the future.  It helps that person see true repen-
tance in your life, because they become a part of it, and it changes a hurting
relationship (the relationship is "hurting" because of the offense) into a 
helping one.

2)  When you are having a difficult time receiving forgiveness.  This may
simply be from the Devil's condemnation (general rule of thumb: the Holy Spirit
convicts (showing the way to repentance and reconciliation with God and man),
the devil condemns (telling you that there is no hope, "you've really blown
it this time, God will never forgive...that person will never forgiver"..etc)).
Christ has given us (not just Pastors, although they are usually the best ones
to approach in such situations) the authority to loose sins (see Mt. 18:18 
where the context is dealing with a sinning brother), ie release the person 
from the sin/guilt (see also James 5).

3)  When you have not sinned directly against another person, but have sinned
before God in a matter (particularly sins like sexual temptation) that you
struggle with repeatedly.  Here the reason for doing so is to enlist the help
of another, someone who can counsel you, loose you from the guilt upon confess-
ion of the sin, and to whom you can be accountable in order to avoid falling
into the sin again.  It is also good to consult with someone that can help
you identify the patterns leading up to the habitual sin, so that you can 
learn to nip the sin in the bud (eg someone who is "drawn" into the XXX-movie
because he always walks past it, could simply learn to go the other way, but
there are other examples). 

Well, I'm over a hundred lines, and that's about all of the top of my head...

Rob

� The leadership must and will lead and we will not, and that's the difficult
� part.  
	"When the princes in Israel take the lead, when the people 
	 willingly offer themselves - praise the LORD"
							Judges 5:2

� This is why we must pray for our leadership, for their wisdom and
� yieldedness to the Lord's direction.  The forefront is not an easy
� position.  

Including moderators.  Remember them all, before the LORD, folks.

� Ask any goose flying south; it is easier to be following in the wake of
� the forerunner. 
They take it in turns to lead, but that's a fascinating entry for 'creation
vs evolution'... [ honk, to overtake... ] 

								'rew

One other thing came to mind...

Q:  What if I do not have a Pastor to whom I can go?

A:  There is no real good answer to this question, which is more a problem
than a question.  The problem here is that the Pastor is truely incapable of
providing the counsel and support that you need.  To be crass, perhaps this
"Pastor" has picked the wrong vocation.

The only thing to do here is to seek out someone to whom you can go when you
are dealing with sin in your life.  Someone who will love you in spite of
your faults, but will help you overcome your sin.  In cases such as this, I 
would suggest caution (if not outright avoidance) about going to non-christian
counselors.  Blessed is he that does NOT walk in the counsel of the ungodly
(Psalms 1), regardless if the "counsel" is well-meant.  Perhaps there are
Pastors in the area who have a counseling ministry, and you could go to them.

But, in general, this is a difficult problem, and, unfortunately, all too 
often the case.

The other situation is that you do not feel confident about going to your 
Pastor because you are too embarrassed about the sin to tell him about it.
If you have a good Pastor, you need to overcome your fear.  You may find 
that he is loving, caring, helpful and forgiving...afteral, he should be.

Rob

	'Secret Sin'

        Secret Sin very rarely stays 'secret' very long; at least not in 
        a Christian.

        From personal (and often _painful_) experience, I know this to be 
        true. If you are able to ignore the 'still small voice' in your 
        heart, the Lord has other "methods" of getting your attention.

        Usually He doesn't need to do this, as we will often begin to act 
        'out-of-character' due to the internal strains-and-stresses we 
        place on ourselves. When this happens, people around us notice.

        Most often, those with whom we have the closest relationship 
        (e.g. spouse and children), are the first to see/feel the change. 
        They may not realise just _why_ there is the change, but they 
        *know* something is "up".

        There are _no_ "secret sins". (Ps44:21b-NASV) "...He [God] knows 
        the secrets of the heart." (Matt6:4b-NASV)"...your Father [God] 
        who sees in secret..." God is Transcendent and Immanent(Omnipresent). 
	He sees everything. To mis-quote a popular song "God is watching 
	us...*close up*" He is not distant, He is right here, right now.

        For whatever reason, we adopt 'secret sins'. It is a matter of our 
        own will. No-one holds a gun to our head and says "sin!", we, of 
        our own volition, indeed, willingly and (sometimes) joyfully, sin.

        Especially our 'favourite' sin. You know, that 'little' sin, that 
        'really doesn't matter that much'. But what makes us think that 
        one sin is 'smaller' than any other? Certainly not the Bible. 
        "...the wages of sin is death..." (Rom6:23a-NASV). Note, "sin", 
        not 'the wages of "big sins" is death, but little ones get 
        6months good behaviour bond'. No, *all* sin is viewed by God in 
        the same way.

        And how is it viewed by God? (Job13:23b-NASV)"...Make known to 
        me my rebellion [or transgression] and sin." (ISam15:23a-NASV)
        "For rebellion is as the sin of divination, And insubordination 
        is as iniquity and idolatry." We are rebels against God. Our 
        flesh, our sinful nature is an enemy of God. All creation (and 
        that includes all mankind) is in rebellion against God.

        It *is* natural to be in rebellion against God.

        It *is* natural to have 'secret sin'.

        It *is* natural to be afraid to face a Holy and Righteous God.

        And face Him we will. "God will judge the secrets of men through 
        Christ Jesus." (Rom2:16b-NASV) "...God Himself is judge."
        (Ps50:6b-NASV) "Shall not the Judge of all the earth deal justly?"
        (Gen18:25b-NASV).

        If that is our fate, then what can we do? Isn't there *some* way 
        of escape? "Who will set me free from the body of this death? 
        Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" (Rom7:24b-25a-NASV)

        Jesus is our escape route. "...if you are living according to the 
        flesh (sin nature), you *must die* [my emphasis]; but if by the 
        Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will 
        *live* [again my emphasis]." (Rom8:13-NASV)

        "If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the 
        truth is not in us." (IJn1:8-NASV) If we have secret sin, and we 
        deny that, we deceive only ourselves. God is not fooled. "Do not 
        be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a [person] sows, 
        this [they] will also reap." (Gal6:7-NASV).

        Like all 'bad things', secret sin is best gotten rid of. We need 
        to "...confess our sins..." and "...He is faithful and righteous 
        to forgive our sins and to *cleanse us* [my emphasis] from all 
        unrighteousness." (IJn1:9-NASV)

        And to whom should we confess our sins? To God. All sin is 
        ultimately, against God. There may be others whom we have hurt, 
        and we may, or may not, need to make restitution with them. But 
        God is the One wronged when we sin.

        "...if anyone sins, we have an Advocate["Legal Councel, Barrister"] 
        with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;" (IJn2:1b-NASV).

        Confess your secret sin to God. Expunge it from your life. Live 
        your life in Jesus. He has already paid the price, accept the 
        free gift of God. Choose now, choose Life.

        in Love,
                hazza :*]


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>        And to whom should we confess our sins? To God. All sin is 
>        ultimately, against God. There may be others whom we have hurt, 
>        and we may, or may not, need to make restitution with them. But 
>        God is the One wronged when we sin.

	I think this paragraph is important.

	Those that we need to make restitution with are not always
	prepared for the information.  I think we need to listen to
	God's leading once we've confessed to Him, and allow Him the
	time to work with others.  I believe He will lead us to confession
	with others in His time.

	I write this because at one time, this notion of confessing our
	sins to others had me thinking I had to sit my husband down and
	confess all my sins, one by one, much like I had with the Lord.

	The mere thought of this had me in such incredible fear and bondage.
	I wasn't ready for that, and neither was he.  Now, I let God do
	the leading, and the prompting.

	Karen

re.16

wise move.

I second what Ace said.

    (Sorry, couldn't resist...)  Hazza writes well eh?

� Hazza writes well eh?
Very much appreciated - I mailed him to say so... I'd thought of this note as 
addressing secret - ie compulsive, or habitual sin, where help is required. 
That is where shared confession can restore us to fellowship.  I never
intended to imply that the majority of sins require that sort of confession
to another....   (not that it's the only way for half nelsons, but it does 
help)

Phew, Karen, (.16) I reckon that's enough to stop anyone getting married ;-) 

The motivation to break any type of sin comes from 1 John 3:3 :

  "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself even as He is 
   pure."

 - He is our motivation - isn't that a relief!  Love; not threat of wrath!

1 Peter 1:16 - "Be ye holy; for I am holy"

 - a part of that real character we are learning to be for eternity.

Ephesians 3:12 [ referring to the LORD Jesus Christ ]:
	"In Whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith 
	 of Him" (A.V.)
	"In Him and through faith in Him we may approach God with freedom 
	 and confidence." (N.I.V.)

as well as 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to 
forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

That's the sort of assurance of acceptance and forgiveness that melts the 
heart until sin loses any grip...

The fact that nothing is hidden from God - that He knows our every sin - is 
not only a motivation for us to keep short accounts with God; it's also an 
assurance that when we face Him, no-one and nothing can pull something out 
of the hat and say - "This one's not forgiven - You overlooked it, LORD"

I'm just glad that Judgement day will have NO surprises for God...

That He KNOWS my every failing, spurs me on to remove them, and delights me 
that He chose me (Ephesians 1:4, 1 Peter 1:15), guaranteeing to get me 
there! - Philippians 1:6 :
 "Being confident of this very thing, that He Which hath begun a good work 
  in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

							love 
								'rew

    I agree also.  

    .22-this is Donna----anyhoo, I was really trying to say that I agree
    with .16
    
    
    

    >I'd thought of this note as addressing secret - ie compulsive, or 
    >habitual sin, where help is required. That is where shared confession 
    >can restore us to fellowship.
    
    Thank you 'rew for restating the intention of this topic.
    
    .16
    
    Is right on for the circumstance as described, but does not attempt to
    address the deeper issues.
    
    Nancy
    

	Thanks Andrew and Nancy, for clarifying.

	BTW Nancy, I got that from your notes, but couldn't be
	sure that's where everyone else was coming from.

	Karen

    Dear Family,
    
    Since starting this topic, I have found that many weaknesses that I
    thought had been dealt with, were actually lying dormant.  God used a
    specific incident in which to reveal some pretty revolting things about
    myself to me.  
    
    The pain of facing those things was/is very severe and at times, I'd
    rather gloss it over or go into denial.  Amazing, how God directed me
    over and over again to the 26.1 for me to read my own words and what I
    knew to be true.
    
    I asked God to give me the strength to look in the mirror and face the
    sin in my life and to confess it and ask for help.  He did so.  In
    order to not give folks' imaginations a run for their money, let me
    state, that my *secret sin*, is a common one... one that in my
    experience plagues most Christians.  However, for me, that sin has
    devastating consequences and patterns of behavior that leads to
    destruction of relationships.
    
    You know one of things I said was, "I know that in God there is
    VICTORY!  So, why am I having such a difficult time claiming it?"  And
    rather appropriately the person I was talking to said,"I want my
    victory and I want it NOW." :-) :-) :-)
    
    The part that I'm finding most helpful, is that I reached a point of
    disgust over this sin (until then, it wasn't so bad).  I think for me,
    the turning point of dealing with it was looking at this sin through
    God's eyes.  Now, *that* hurts.  But not just leaving it there, but
    also knowing that His *love* covers it all.  I'm still working on the
    latter, but the first step has been taken to not trivialize the sin,
    but see it for what it truly is.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy

    "But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more
    and more unto the perfect day." Prov. 4:18  I believe that as we
    continue in the path that the Lord has for our lives, His light shines
    on us in an ever-increasing way.  Things that we once might have
    overlooked suddenly appear for what they are.  The Lord, in His
    infinite mercy, doesn't show us the depths of our depravity all at
    once.  But in His mercy as well, He is faithful to bring us to the
    point of recognizing and dealing with the issues in our lives.  If we
    are real with God, and deal (or rather, allow Him to deal) with these
    issues as they appear, the result will be an increasing clarity before
    Him -- His light shining in and through our lives in a greater and
    greater way.  And when that perfect day comes, there will be no
    shrinking back.
    
    Remember, the answer to "O wretched man that I am" is "I thank God
    through Jesus Christ our Lord".
    
    Mark L

    .27
    
    Much wisdom in what you wrote Mark L.
    
    Nancy

Tremendous stuff there, Mark.  I turn from self, revolted, to the relief of
looking at Him again.  And wonder how *could* He love me....  As He touches
each new area of 'me', and it needs to be yielded to Him afresh, *I* could
despair, because I know that however much cleansing I could offer myself
for, it's still foulness underneath. but the work is His, not mine, and He
is faithful.  In Him alone I trust. 

I think the most precious assurance (amongst many) I cling to in this area 
is the one in 1 John 3:2 :

 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we 
  shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for 
  we shall see Him as He is."

I - we - *shall* be like him, in time for eternal bliss with Him...

 - Meanwhile I have to wrestle with the 'now' corollary, in verse 3:
 "And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as 
  He is pure."

Thanks again Mark, for that breath of LIFE...

								Andrew

    Nancy,
    
     Praying for your victory in Jesus, sis!
    
    Gil

    I put this in here, because it is not really religion in the news and
    yet it is indeed sin. Can you image just how clever Satan can be? Satan
    is imposing on us even with our eyes wide open. Check out this article
    from the Wall Street Journal yesterday morning. (Now in fairness to the
    WSJ, they reported this as somewhat humorous, almost foolish, but
    look whose company name is prominently identified!)
    
    This is not the first of any report that has crossed my desk showing
    that Digital is less than a (christian) moral enterprize anymore.
    Oh for he days of Ken Olsen. At least Ken worships God and tried to
    do the morally correct thing in the face of the press, stock holders
    and the workers and families,....*sigh*
    
    This article hit me especially hard, because while serving in the
    Military, I was exposed to "Mind over Matter" and "You are the Source"
    messages. It took SOME TIME to figure out who and what was teaching
    this principle. Now that I am on the other side of the fence, I still
    recall the days and feelings of what it was like to "be my own god".
    
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
From:	ULYSSE::JULLIEN      "Vincent Jullien" 28-APR-1993 11:37:54.39
To:	@USER7:[JULLIEN]TBG_VBO.DIS;17, @USER7:[JULLIEN]TBG_LKG.DIS;4
CC:	JULLIEN
Subj:	I-And now.... VooDoo Sales Training!

I can't beleive that Digital is mentionned in this article! In any case, 
abstain to wear nail polish on your toes during the next Sales Symposium!    
/VJ


Bosses Will Do Almost Anything
 To Light Fires Under Salespeople
 ----
 By Joseph Pereira
 Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal [copied without permission]


  Is your sales staff suffering from burnout? Or lacking sizzle? Don't rake
them over the coals; take them to the coals.

  Fire walking -- the ancient ritual of treading barefoot over a bed of
red-hot embers -- is catching on in sales-training programs.

  A number of companies, including Digital Equipment Corp. and Metropolitan
Life Insurance Co., are trying the mind-over-matter exercise, hoping to fire
up their staffs. Salespeople at the Colombo Frozen Yogurt division of Bongrain
North America recently walked on fire during a seminar in Danvers, Mass. The
company called the session "a fabulous crescendo point for our national sales
meeting."

  Scott Magnacca, a Boston investment consultant and self-improvement guru who
conducted the fire walk for the Andover, Mass., concern, says "a few quick
steps over 1,200-degree coals will result in quantum leaps in sales
performance."

  Though the trek over 14 feet of glowing coals was optional, about 100 of 120
Colombo employees attempted it. Tunes like "Hot, Hot, Hot" and "The Heat Is
On" blared in the background. Mr. Magnacca, in a raspy Joe Pesci voice, barked
such encouragements as: "Cold calling is going to be a piece of cake after you
do this."
  Some participants prefer to tiptoe across. Zone manager Richard Monsees says
he "high stepped it as if charging into the end zone." One saleswoman got a
hotfoot when the polish on her toenails caught fire, but water quickly
extinguished the flames.

  Fire walking doesn't work only for salespeople. In a letter to Mr. Magnacca,
Dina Pandya, assistant director of alumni relations for Babson College, says
fire walking "helped me accomplish my goal of reconnecting alumni with Babson
and making alumni feel good about Babson."

  Mr. Magnacca says there is no real secret to fire walking. (Fakirs have
occasionally confided that wet grass on both ends of the coal pit are a big
help).

  "My only advice," offers Mr. Magnacca, "is that after you take the first
step, keep walking." First-aid kits and firemen are on hand at most of his
fire walks.

  Mr. Magnacca, who is writing a book titled, "Relationship Based Selling,"
devotes most of one chapter to fire walking. "It will help you overcome fear
and procrastination," he says, "In fact, it will help you do anything short of
walking on water."

------- End of Forwarded Message

Hi PDM,

I guess this was an isolated venture, rather than company policy ... I 
hope!  I don't see it on our list of training courses ... yet.

Anyway, I'm still aiming for walking on water, unless I get the walking on 
air first.  And that's going up, not down! ;-)

								Andrew

By golly, there you are about 2 hours ahead of me again, Andrew.

Oh well, as long as you keep putting down my thoughts so well, I can't
complain.

Lew

    As I read stuff like this, I can't help but be glad that I'm a
    CHRISTIAN... you know the STAR TREK FILM, where this guys says, "I know
    your pain" and folks just become hypnotized with him and follow him..
    that's all it'll take.. that's all it'll take.  
    
    We are in a world today where there is so much emotional abandonment
    and substance abuse, that people are going to literally cling to the
    Anti-Christ for comfort... only to be deceived... [heavy sigh]
    
    Sorry if this seems disconnected.. but with all of the Eastern
    Mysticisms coming forth especially in the workforce, it seems like such
    a neat preparation...
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
     That is not off the track of Secret Sin AT ALL! Infact I think of
    Secret Sin as anything that is hidden from the light. That can be
    personal as well as camouflaged mysticism.
    
      No I too am Glad that I have seent he light....
    
       PDM