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Conference wahoo::fishing

Title:Fishing Notes- Archived
Notice:See note 555.1 for a keyword directory of this conference
Moderator:DONMAC::MACINTYRE
Created:Fri Feb 14 1986
Last Modified:Fri Sep 20 1991
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1660
Total number of notes:20970

1654.0. "beaucoup deep-sea questions" by DECEAT::KELLIHER (Ed Kelliher) Fri Jul 26 1991 13:49

    
          Just to characterize the questions that follow, I'm someone who
    fishes with the Yankee Fleet out of Gloucester often.  I don't own a
    boat, and am no where near the class of most fishermen in here.  I
    pay my money, jig hard, and typically come home with 3-5 6-8 lb. cod.
    The last time out, I pulled up a 14 lb. wolffish and thought I died and 
    went to heaven.  I've never caught more than a � dozen keepers, and
    have caught only 1 fish greater than 20 lb. (that was my very 1st time
    out, and so I had little appreciation for what I had caught; in fact,
    it was a 23 lb. wolffish, and I was going to throw it back in due to
    its looks !)
    
          I sense if I were lucky enough to join one of you other folks on
    a trip or two as a mate, I'd drastically improve my technique (I tried to 
    hook up with CC once or twice last year, but my calendar wasn't very 
    forgiving at the time).  I'd really like to be able to do this, but am
    not sure what the right way to go about it is.
    
          I've read, printed out, and gathered statistics on all the
    saltwater entries of the conference relative to gear.  I then merged
    this information with what the Yankee Fleet ship's mates and captains 
    told me, and that formed what I now own and use: a medium-action Penn
    slammer with a Penn 113H reel, 50 # test mono., 14 oz. diamond jig with
    2 pink rubber shrimp teasers hanging above.
    
          The conference clearly leans toward using dacron line lead by
    some length of (100) # test mono off a heavy duty snap swivel.  The 
    Y/F folks clearly prefer all mono.  So my second question is "describe
    the rationale of the 2 different views".
    
          Question #3 is "why not all dacron ?" (or, "why a mono leader?").
    The notes in here regarding the elasticity of mono don't "finish off"
    this debate.
    
    #4: "As soon as you feel the line get tugged, exactly what do you do
         next ?  Do you time the hook-set differently depending on the line 
         (dacron vs. mono) ?"  From what I've read in here, it would seem
         that's the case.
    
    #5:  The Y/F discourage use of a snap swivel entirely ( I think the
         argument centered around line entanglement if I remember
         correctly).  So here would be a disadvantage of a charter vs. a 
         private, right ?  Is this going to force me to go to all-dacron,
         or do I ignore their recommendation ? 
    
    #6:  It seems reasonable to me that you'd want to tip one of the pink
         teasers with some clam or shrimp to put scent in the area of the
         jig, making the offering more realistic or enticing...yet the Y/F
         strongly discourages this practice.  Can I get some clear reason why 
         not ?  
    
    #7:  Please describe the direction of an optimal jig cast relative to 
         (either) wind, wave, or current.
    
    #8:  What are the factors that determine the rating system (vg,g...?)?
         What's the schedule of "vg" days through December ?
    
    Thanks for all your help.  I hope to hear from and join one of you
    captains.
    
    Ed
    
    
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1654.1Opinions like whiskersMSDOA::CUZZONEClear the ropes!Fri Jul 26 1991 16:0132
    Ed,
    
    I'm not a captain and don't have answers to all your questions but I'm
    so full of opinions that I have to reegularly give them to others to
    keep from exploding.
    
    RE: All mono on Y/F - I've been out on Y/F a half dozen times and out
    on a few other head boats too.  I suspect that this is an economic
    decision.  So much line gets cut (and that comes out of the Y/F
    pocketbook as opposed to lost jigs that must be paid for by the
    patrons) that I would select the cheapest alternative if I were running
    Y/F.
    
    RE: "juicing up" a teaser - in my experience, bait has attracted
    dogfish faster than jigs by a long shot.  In fact, I'd be happier if
    they would do away with the clams entirely.  I don't know if a little
    calm juice in the water would hurt much but cod seem to be attracted by
    the flash of the jigs more than the smell of the clams.  I've caught a
    fair number on the surgical tubing and I'm not sure why.
    
    RE: success - it sounds like you're doing alright already.  After all,
    it's up to the captain to put you over the fish.  From that point, it's
    a combo of skill and luck who gets the biggest and most fish.  That's
    why I always put $1 in the pool.  Two things can help - position on the
    boat (I try for the stern, second choice is bow) and advice from other
    folks on the boat.  I learned more from watching the cook work a jig
    one day than from listening to the mates.  Keep your eye on the
    lucky/skillful and ask for advice later when they're not so busy.
    
    This may not help much but it might help a little.
    
    -SSS-
1654.2Hope this helps (hit next unseen if uninterested)MLTVAX::LUCIAHere, fishy, fishy...Mon Jul 29 1991 15:36140
Ed,

Since Bruce is on vacation this week, I'll share with you my experience, 
which is 100% due to his instruction.  My qualifications?  I would 
approximate at least 1000 codfish for this year and last...

>           <<< WAHOO::SYS$SYSDEVICE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]FISHING.NOTE;2 >>>
>           -< The Fishing Notes - Home for wayward Terminal Anglers >-
>================================================================================
>Note 1654.0                beaucoup deep-sea questions                   1 reply
>DECEAT::KELLIHER "Ed Kelliher"                       63 lines  26-JUL-1991 12:49
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    
>          I've read, printed out, and gathered statistics on all the
>    saltwater entries of the conference relative to gear.  I then merged
>    this information with what the Yankee Fleet ship's mates and captains 
>    told me, and that formed what I now own and use: a medium-action Penn
>    slammer with a Penn 113H reel, 50 # test mono., 14 oz. diamond jig with
>    2 pink rubber shrimp teasers hanging above.
>    

The 113H is the defacto standard codfish reel.  I personally use an 8' 
custom-made �Sweet Stick for codfishing.  50# mono has been my choice, 
although we've hit some really deep water lately (>300') and so I've been
considering dacron.  I use the norwegian stainless jigs (Rustov/Slovoken or 
something like that) in the 6 to 26 oz range.  The diamond jigs are almost 
as good.

>          The conference clearly leans toward using dacron line lead by
>    some length of (100) # test mono off a heavy duty snap swivel.  The 
>    Y/F folks clearly prefer all mono.  So my second question is "describe
>    the rationale of the 2 different views".
>    

Ah, the debate rages on.  Mono stretches.  When you jig in less than 200' 
of water, you sweep the rod tip up which stretches the mono like a rubber 
band.  When the rod tip hits the top of its swing, the mono snaps tight and 
the jig FLIES off the bottom.  It's a little-known fact that the big fish 
go for smaller jigs and slower jigging action.  I use the smallest jig that 
will hold bottom (depth and wind being the two primary factors).  Over 200'
you don't get the best hookset.

Dacron doe�sn't stretch, so the jigging action with the rod tip i
transmitted untouched to the jig.  You also get a better hookset, 
especially in deep water.

>          Question #3 is "why not all dacron ?" (or, "why a mono leader?").
>    The notes in here regarding the elasticity of mono don't "finish off"
>    this debate.
>    

I firmly believe that codfish are not line shy, so go ahead and use all 
dacron, except for a leader with the teasers (see end of this not)

>    #4: "As soon as you feel the line get tugged, exactly what do you do
>         next ?  Do you time the hook-set differently depending on the line 
>         (dacron vs. mono) ?"  From what I've read in here, it would seem
>         that's the case.

I set the hook as hard as I can as soon as I get a bite.  Usually, they 
pick up the jig as it's falling, so the line goes slack (i.e., you are 
anticipating feeling the weight of the jig as it falls and it never comes)
This is why I generally lower the rod tip, rather than putting any slack in 
the line.  I can also maintain better feel of the bottom and thus I can 
differentiate between a fish and the jig hitting bottom.

>    #5:  The Y/F discourage use of a snap swivel entirely ( I think the
>         argument centered around line entanglement if I remember
>         correctly).  So here would be a disadvantage of a charter vs. a 
>         private, right ?  Is this going to force me to go to all-dacron,
>         or do I ignore their recommendation ? 

On a party boat, the less hardware, the fewer tangles.  I always put one on.
Again, see the bottom of this note for my rig.

>    
>    #6:  It seems reasonable to me that you'd want to tip one of the pink
>         teasers with some clam or shrimp to put scent in the area of the
>         jig, making the offering more realistic or enticing...yet the Y/F
>         strongly discourages this practice.  Can I get some clear reason why 
>         not ?  
>    

They don't want to give up the clams!!! They cost $12-$15 a gallon at 
wholesale prices!

>    #7:  Please describe the direction of an optimal jig cast relative to 
>         (either) wind, wave, or current.

Always throw DOWNWIND/CURRENT if the boat is drifting (not anchored).  Most 
party boats anchor 'cause it reduces line tangling.  Thus, when your jig 
falls to the bottom 200' below, the line is straight up and down when you 
begin jigging.  If the bottom structure is only a few square feet, drop the 
jig straight down and jig on an angle, letting slack out as fast as the 
boat drifts in order to leave the jig on the structure.

>    
>    #8:  What are the factors that determine the rating system (vg,g...?)?
>         What's the schedule of "vg" days through December ?
>    

Who knows.  A good day has enough wind to make sure you cover the bottom, 
but not enough wind so that you can only make 2 or 3 jigs before resetting.


>    Thanks for all your help.  I hope to hear from and join one of you
>    captains.
>    
>    Ed
>    

Tim's codfishing business end (learned from Bruce):


main line            |
50# ande tournament  |
green                o
                     ||
                     ||
bimini twist         ||
                     o offshore swivel knot
                     []
                     [] 225 test Rosco barrel swivel (#9)
                     []
                     | 5"
                     |
leader, 80# mono     +----- dropper loop with teaser
                     |      which is home made 6/0 limerick bucktail in
                     |      yellow, white, blue or green/white two-tone
                     |
                     | 18"
                     |
                     +----- another teaser
                     |
                     | 5"
                     |
                     []
                     [] 225 test Rosco barrel swivel (#9)
                     []
                     The jig
1654.3Some possible answersVICKI::DODIERFood for thought makes me hungryMon Jul 29 1991 15:4744
    	I'm no expert but I'll take a stab at a few of your questions.
    
    	Why the dacron with the mono leader ?
    
    	Dacron has the least amount of stretch for a line, followed
    by nylon and then mono, which has the most. In 100' or so of water
    you'll probably not see/feel much difference. At over 200', there is
    likely enough stretch to cause a difference. It's my opinion you get
    a better hook set and more sensitivity with the dacron at depths greater 
    than 200' vs. using mono. 
    
    	A lot has to do with the skill level of the fisherman though. A skilled
    person using mono will most likely outfish a less skilled person using 
    dacron.
    
    	The reason for the mono leader is a little stretch (give) is desirable
    in the event you wind up drift fishing. If you catch bottom while
    drifting, the little bit of stretch gives you enough time to flip the 
    lever, let out some line, and then try working the snag loose.
    
    	As far as hook sets with jigs, many times they hook themselves or
    you hook them when you go to pull the jig. Of all the fish I've ever fished 
    for, deep sea bottom fish have been the easiest. When you feel them, set the
    hook. A good pole will determine how well you feel them. The pole can
    mean the difference between feeling them nibble versus feeling them
    after they've hooked themselves. I got an 8' cod rod (Bruin I think)
    for my father at P.K. Zyla's in Hookset,N.H. for $32 and the
    sensitivity of it was extraordinary for the price. I'd highly recommend
    them to anyone, especially those on a limited budget.
    
    	My "theory" about teasers is this. Fish are somewhat competative
    when it comes to food. A small fish (jig) going after a baitfish/shrimp
    (teaser) triggers the response in a larger fish (cod) to beat out the 
    small fish (jig) by either going after the perceived baitfish or the small 
    fish itself. If there are shrimp in the area and you use a shrimp teaser, 
    a piece of bait may adversely affect the action of the teaser. It also 
    increases the chances of getting a dogfish.
    
    	As far as the swivel, I use one because I sometimes like to switch
    from jigging to bait, if the dogs aren't bad, to try for wolffish and
    cusk. If you lose your rig to a snag, it typically breaks after the swivel 
    meaning a new rig can be snapped on in no time too.
    
    	Hope this helps..........RAYJ