Conference wahoo::fishing

>      Note: all fish on friday came on the cheaters.

 Whazzat?

    A cheater is an extra line that you attach to an existing line that
    is attached to a downrigger. The cheater will find its own depth,
    usually in the middle of the bow formed by the line it is attached to.
    How's that Lee!
    
                                        Jeff (Captain)
                                        Team Starcraft

    I have a couple of ???
    
    1) Do you use/have your own boat?
    
    2) Is this the boat your doing all the catching on?
    
    3) What kind of boat is it?
    
    4) How long of a set back do you use / Does it generally change
    w/depth?
    
    5) How often do you go out and get nothing? Ever?
    
    6) How many lb. test do you use?
    
    7) What facility do you work at / How close is it to the Big O?
    
    Hell Lee, I could go on & on. 
    
                                        Jeff (Captain) 
                                        Team starcraft

    
    
      Jeff,
    
       That pretty much explains it, although thats actually what they call
    a slider(slides free on the line) a cheater is as you say an extra line
    attached to the main line, but its put in a fixed position.
     
         The state of NY allows 2 rods per person with 15 hook points max
    per rod. thus allowing you to run cheaters/sliders.
    
              |main line to pole
              | 
              | 
              |  
              |                                                              
     gum band_|  cheater
              |-----------lure
              |
              |  
              | 
              | 
              | 
             *\________________________lure
             **
           downrigger ball& release
    
    
    
       Now I use gum bands so I know exactly where the top lure is and when
    a fish hits the cheater the cheater line slides down to the mainline
    swivel and then you just reel the gum band into the reel and then when
    you reset you can return everything to the exact same spot.
    
      I use 50 lb test for the cheater line because the line ussually get
    wrapped up in the mainline lure and you need good heavy line to take 
    the abuse and also the lure springs back and forth because the mainline
    moves freely from the pole, so when you get a fish on the cheater its
    either inhaled or hooked way out on their lip.
    
       I use a ballbearing swivel with the 50lb line tied to the snap end,
    then I put the mainline through the ring (so it slides free on the
    line, then tie a swivel on the main line.
    
       Then I let out the mainline to the desired length, then attach it to
    the downrigger release then run the downrigger down to however far I
    want the cheater (ussually 5-10 feet) drop the cheater lure in the
    water then tie a gum band on the main line and run the downrigger down
    to the desired depth.
    
         Now I hope this is easy enough to understand, I also want to state
    the state of NH DOES NOT ALLOW THE USE OF CHEATERS/SLIDERS. check your
    local laws before experimenting.
    
                                                   Lee
     

    Well, I'm sure there's lot's of different ways people run cheaters,
    but we run them fixed with a rubber band to a line attached to the
    dowrigger, about 5 to 10 ft up from the ball, maybe 5 to 10 ft back.
    The idea is the fish is attracted to the ball, sees a tempting lure trailing
    behind and a little bit above, and slams it! This then pulls the
    primary line out of the down rigger release, breaks the rubber band,
    and lets the cheater line slide down the primary line (it's hooked
    on with a swivel) until it meets the other lure. It makes for some
    interesting work when the fish gets near the boat because depending
    on how long the cheater is you can't get the fish any closer to
    the boat. Further more, if the fish hits the main line, you have
    to stop while playing the fish and remove the cheater so you can
    continue reeling in...tricky when a big King is on...
    
    I have a few questions about the water temp stuff. I was schooled
    in the thought that salmon would hang out at around the 54 dg. mark.
    The data you show makes it seem that the fish are down in the 40
    dg. water. Would it make sense that the angle of the rigger line,
    combined with the additional height of the cheater put the lure
    up in the 50 dg. water ? Maybe 55 ft down ? One other question I
    had was how fast were you trolling ? We usually try and stick at
    2.7 mph. We'll experiment some from there if we're not hitting
    anything. I'm always curious about the details when someone has
    an exceptional day !
    
    Marty (In New Mexico for a year, but back to the big O next spring!)
     

    Lee, looks like we were replying at the same time...sounds like
    you set up pretty much the same as us...
    
    Marty

    
    
    Marty,
    
    I am kinda wondering why you take the cheater off if the fish is on the
    main line? my cheater length is 4 ft, the gum band is just tied to the 
    main line and the cheater just rides up the line to the gum band and
    stops there so its really not fixed there except for the fact that it
    cant go up any higher than the gumband is tied.
    
      I have found that salmon like the water temps around the 42-48 degree
    range. and you can almost always find lakers in that temo since they
    like the colder water also, I have seen times where you arent doing
    kings and drop the downriggers 10-20 feet and catch lakers( just for
    the sake of passing time)
    
       Trolling speed varries due to current/wind/lures, as a rule of thumb
    I stay around 1.8-2.2 mph, I have gone up to 3-3.5 mph to try and keep
    the lakers off if we are into kings but 1.8 is a good starting place.
    
        During the spring I troll slower because of the cold water and the
    fish are right on the surface and you dont make as mmuch motor noise to
    fan the fish out of planer board range.
    
       Jeff
    
      yes I do have my own boat a 15 foot starcraft,40 hp johnson and 3 hp
    kicker for trolling purposes, yes we have done 99 percent of our catchs
    on my boat, You can tell theres been fish on the carpet ( my wife is
    going to give it a scrubbing this week) 
    
      set backs generally depend on depth of water and fish activity/
    spring I run 100-200 feet off the ball, summer if I am over 40 foot
    down I run between 5-50 foot off the ball, when I run cheaters I go a
    max of 30 feet( at 30ft and a cheater 10ft above the fish gets 40ft of
    slack line before you get tension on him) thats why if a rod pops that 
    has a cheater on it crank the reel as fast as you can and as soon as
    you feel the fish set the hook(kinda hard) a big king or laker have
    hard mouths and you want to make sure the hook is imbedded good, as a
    rule I ussually sharpen hooks every other fish.
     
          This year we have been skunked about 6 times and only 2 full days
    of fishing we did nothing ( what I mean is there were 2 times we were
    out more than 4 hrs and did nothing) and I dont count bass on my trips.
    
        I use 10 lb test, 4 7ft lght action W/ penn 9M level winds for
    spring fishing and 2 8ft lght action shimano and 2 med action shimano
    and shimano 200 GT level winds these are spooled with 14 lb test.
      The 2 med actions are used for down rigging when I stack rods and
    they are used for running dipsey divers/dropsinkers/and monkey balls,
    because with the tension the above mentioned terminal tackle applies
    plus the wicked shock of a king or other big fish hitting causes I feel
    more secure with the med. action rod.
    
       I work in the Rochester NY feild service office as a work
    coordinator, this office is about 15 miles from the lake, I live in
    williamson NY I live 4-5 miles from the lake, I can see about 12 miles
    of the lake from my back yard. I told the wife I need a telescope to
    check lake conditions from the house *)8 
    
       My boat is kept in sodus point NY about .5 miles from the public
    launch on rt 14. we average about 3 days a week on the lake, depending
    on free time I have.
    
     
                                                   Lee
    
      Mark, 
        Can we set up some type of a note for general B.S. like this for
    lake O since this doesnt really pertain to a trip report? We can
    discuss different set ups and techniques of fishing.
    

    Lee,
    We have always put the band through the snap swivel on the
    cheater so the cheater would stay in place. I see what your
    saying about just letting it ride up to that point, but if
    you reel the band onto the spool, does the line play back out
    smoothly when the fish makes a run as it gets near the boat ? 
    It was interesting to hear you use 50 lb. test for the cheaters.
    We have always used 17lb on Ontario, and 8 or 10 on Champlain. I
    don't recall having problems with break off, but the extra strength
    would be a nice idea...I always figured the fish would get line
    shy long before that point...
    
    Does your downrigger ball always show up on your fishfinder so you
    know what depth it's at ? Mine slides out of the cone field as the
    depth increases as the ball starts to track way behind the boat...
    Here's a thought. Even if you track it at 70 ft, it's 70 ft from
    the transducer, so if the angle behind the boat is 30 dg. the actual
    depth the ball is at would be something less (anybody feel free
    to help me with the basic geometry here !)
    
    Marty
    

    You guys must have alot of crap attached to your cable to get a 30
    degree angle. Now, here's my meager setup: I don't use cheaters or
    sliders cause there illegal. I am allowed to use 2 poles per person
    in the boat. I just bought my Starcraft last year and so far I've
    installed 1 Cannon Uni-Troll. Off the ball I like to attach lake
    trolls, cow bells or some kind of attractor. About 2 ft above that
    I use a quick stacker release with my lure a couple of feet past the
    attractors. I guess you could say it looks like a school of fish
    with a straggler trying to keep up (easy prey). At 10ft above this 
    set-up I have another quick stacker that my second pole is attached
    to, set back any number of feet. Now at 2mph with a 6lb ball it is
    running almost straight down. I wiil be going to an 8 lb ball and 
    figure it to run straight down at any speed. I am only going down about
    40 feet max. but sometimes I'll try to rape the bottom @ 60-80ft but
    not very often. What lb. weight do you guys use at Lake O.
    My Starcraft is also a 15 footer. It's a fiberglass bow rider. I have
    a trolling plate mounted on my 88hp outboard. It does work well!
    
                           Jeff (Captain)
                           Team Starcraft

>I don't use cheaters or sliders cause there illegal.

 I looked through the 1990 rule book and I didn't see where this was the case.
Where do you get your information from?

 The Doctah

         Doctah,
    
         When I lived in NH I was told by a F&G officer they were illegal
    even if each lure has a single hook, now mass may be different.
    
         The state of NY allows 15 hook points per rod/30 per person. the
    only problem is if you happen to get 2 fish on 1 pole, especially a
    couple 20+ lb kings your gonna be in for a lenghty battle.
    
         The question about the gum band sticking in the eyelets of the
    pole on the way back out from a run by the fish, in my experience the 
    rubberband either flies back through the eyelets or the mono cuts the 
    rubberband and it falls out of the way.
    
                                        Lee
    ps. I use 10 lb cannonballs and at 3.0mph the start to track back
    alittle, but if I am down 150 foot they start tracking back at 2.2mph
    
     

Jeff and Doctah,

I work in the Rochester office with Lee. I use 11 Lb. 
"Slim-Line" weights that will track true to about 80'
under 2 mph. Somehow I never seem to pick them up on 
the graph, but then I have a 17 deg cone angle. The 
riggers are Penn's with a good depth counter, so I 
don't usually have to worry about it.

My boat is a 19" Chaparral bow rider with a 
Mercruiser I/O.

(and I NEVER get skunked!!!)

Don

    Anybody who has a depth finder / fish finder should do this: Lower 
    your anchor down on the side your transducer is on. I had mine down
    30 feet and could see it on the screen. Now play with your sensitivity
    control. I did this last weekend and feel now, that I have a much
    better idea of what I'm seeing down there. In comparing the size of the
    anchor to the size of the other "blips" I see down there, I get the
    feeling that I'm gonna need a bigger boat!
    
                                      Jeff (Captain)
                                      Team Starcraft

        I am primarily a stream oriented, flyfisherman, but since I have
    easy access to many of Northern Vermont's premier lake trout/rainbow
    trout/LL salmon cold water lakes (ie. Willoughby, Echo, Seymour,
    Caspian, the Averills), I am planning to utilize my canoe, upon 
    occasion, to do some deep water trolling.  Since I am basically a low
    tech kind of guy, and a canoe isn't really built to handle downriggers
    and electronics to any great degree, could any of you experts provide
    some advice on the use of lead core line or dipsey-divers, or other
    techniques from days gone by.
    
         I have had some success trolling small streamers for brook trout
    in Vermont and stocker rainbows in Massachusetts on small ponds. 
    Surprisely, I have had better success while paddling then when using
    my electric trolling motor.  Any thoughts on how I can use my current
    set up for big Lakers, Rainbows or Salmon would be much appreciated.
    
    Russ                                  

    Yes paddleing works better sometimes than an electric because it gives
    a more natural presentation due to the eratic movement instead of an
    electric which will go the exact speed all the time. 
    
    A Cannon Mini-Troll is what you need for your canoe. My wife has 
    one of these small downriggers on her 16' Grumman. It simply clamps
    to the side in seconds. The advantages outweigh (no pun intended)
    the use of leadcore or dipsy divers. The biggest advantage is, when
    you get a fish on, you will not be fighting with 10 pounds of line
    or dragging a dipsy diver up with the fish. Have you ever picked up
    one of those dipsy diver...their heavy...you would need at least 10
    pound test to handle one. I use 4lb test exclusively on my downrigger.
    Nice, clean fight. Plus with a downrigger you know exactly what depth
    your at. With lead core your kind of guessing and it will change with
    trolling speed. Also one kink in the line and it could end your day.
    Mini Trolls cost around $50.