Conference wahoo::fishing

    John,
    
    Kudo's for having the courage to take on such a massive project.  Its
    A GREAT idea... I have a friend who has a summer camp on lake winnni
    at the end of meredith bay. with 2 30' foot docks and I'm sure we could
    even get a boat that day if need... You a welcome to use this site to
    explore, and we would like to see the results and work/help you... For
    more info please contact myself @dtn264-1354 or send mail to TRACTR::
    POWERS. I know a big part of this project is to find out how much
    damage the lake is in from negitive feed back, but will there be any
    positive feedback such as (Clean area, plenty of bait fish, lots of
    big fish, clean water, lots of crayfish, ect, ect) you know what i
    mean...
    
    Keep up the good work - you have our support!
    
    Mike Vaillancourt
    
    
    

    I did a quick dive in long pond in Littleton a couple of years ago to
    use up a tank.  All I found was mud and beer bttles.  The problem with
    fresh water after you kick up a cloud of silt, visibility drops to nil.
    
    
    C-,

How do you handle that kind of trash without slicing your hands up? Do
you wear gloves?

You folks are doing a good thing. I hope you keep it up.

Art

>and another species (possibly
>          of the herring family [?], but definitely not white perch or
>          sucker) were seen sheltering.

 Whitefish?

>They appeared pale and sluggish and made no moves to defend themselves when 
>confronted. 

 Water temp?

>The undisturbed silt was cratered in the standard "moon-
>          scape" with regularly spaced, soft shallow depressions. (What
>          causes this moonscape is unknown.)

 Once used spawning beds? 

 the Doctah

 My only other guess regarding the sluggishness of the crayfish is perhaps they
are being poisoned by something (which sounds plausible given your description
of the lake).

    Crayfish could be moulting, eh? This would also account for the pale
    color. Just a guess.
                                              Ken

    What was the water temp? They do hibernate for the winter. 
    One question, why would your group pick that time of year to
    do your survey/cleanup at Whites? That is peak trout fishing time
    at that pond. Where there any irate fishermen, or did you stay clear
    of them?

    Rich

    > Crayfish came out of hibernation about a month and a half ago, based on
    > other bodies of water I have been in. (I do "float around" alot,
    > gathering data and just plain continuing to learn.)

    Thats other bodies of water. I don't think you can say that is true
    for Whites, all waters warm up differently. Whites warms slowly.
    If you said you were are Walden a moth before you might have some 
    credibility.
        
  ><No Flame Here>
   > There were fishermen all over the place. They stayed clear of us. Our
   > effort was supported by the two civilian groups that take
   > responsibility for the pond as well as by the Town of Concord. A
   > fisherman can get as irate as he likes for two hours as far as I'm
   > concerned.... More than half the trash comes from fishermen.
    
     No one should have to stay clear of you. Your high and mighty
     attitude really detracts from what you are trying to accomplish.
     Did you personally see fishermen deposit more that half the trash,
     or did you surmise that. Be realistic please. I used to live in the
     area, and fished that pond hundreds of times. I NEVER saw one fisherman
     deposit any trash in that pond. Not to say that it doesn't happen.
     What you write, will be taken as fact by some unaware individuals.
     Please stick to the facts.

    re: last few
    
    I didnt see John's attitude as high and mighty. I also tend to believe
    his presumptions on where the trash came from. For the most part the
    individuals who read and contribute to this notes conference and others
    are much more aware of "doing the right thing", to coin a phrase. There
    are lots of other people who are not part of this enlightened network
    community, and they (for the most part) do not do the right thing...
    
    I feel very strongly about the communication and exchange of ideas in
    this conference and others. And I think it promotes an awareness and
    attitude that is commendable. But that is another topic..
    
    As far as the fishermen staying away from the divers. That is the
    correct action to take. John correct me if I am wrong, but I believe
    there is some law/rules that dictate giving divers the right of way.
    
    Don

    
     Don,
     
     Take a breather.
    
     First of all folks, WE are all intitled to use the water.
     
     No-one group or individual has the right to block a section of a
     great pond in Massachusett without some form of permit speifically
     drawn and granted by all governing bodies. So basically if Mr. Diver
     tells me I have to leave the area, and he does not have a permit
     to block off that particular area , I can tell him exactly what to
     put in the coffee cup with the bottom missing.
     
     However, if Mr. Diver came over to me and said he was cleaning up the
     pond and would like to clean the section I was fishing on and would
     I mind trying another spot for a while, then I think you'd find a 
     whole different answer.
    
     Just a thought for your future endevors,
    
     _ Dave
    

    
    Dave,
    
    I dont need to take a breather, I am not upset in the least. I just
    viewed my opinion on the replies to John's statements. I guess I'm
    siding myself but I feel strongly about what he and his organization
    are tring to do. When I read his note I did not receive the impression
    that he was mightyer than anyone...  
    
    As far as we are all intitled to use the water, I agree. There are
    rules of common courtesy however. I would not expect the diver to
    boldly go into an area and order you out. Your suggestion on how he
    (the diver) would achieve the best results, by being polite and
    explaining the situation is quite accurate. My referance to staying
    away from divers stems from the fact that they are in a very
    compromising position. Once down, he is isolated from what may be going 
    on above and may be unaware of a dangerous situation. If an accident 
    were to happen, the loss of life far out weighs the possibility of
    picking up that once in a life hawg. (well it almost out weights that
    possibility)   :^)  
    
    I still wear a fishing hat.
    Don
    

    
           I agree partially with Johns statement about the trash.
    I have seen it many, many times.  "Fisherpersons" leaving their
    trash behind, worm containers, lure wrappers etc.  I don't believe
    that he was calling all of us "litterbugs".  But, there are a few,
    the same as "hunters" who discard their waste in the wild.  Why
    is it, which is mainly why I'm read-only most of the time, that
    just about anything someone writes in notes is picked apart and 
    twisted around.  
           I believe that what they are doing is a great thing and
    I would like to think that we as sportsmen, would offer our full 
    support.  I don't think we need to debate who left trash and who
    didn't.  John, you and the other divers, keep up the good work!!
    
                Bob  

     I just don't agree with what I read is that OK?    

     I dont see any :-), so I am assuming that you are totally serious.
     I'm sure the people that dropped the anchors and rods/reels, lost
     lures just threw them in the water to litter the pond. So John what
     should we do about those fishermen? Ban fishing there, would that be
     better? Beer cans, Oh ya its only fishermen that drink beer. Beer cans
     don't float,  the same as cigarette butts. Nope that couldn't be 
     anybody but fishermen.  

     As far as picking someone apart, thats B.S., I see something that is 
     written as fact and I dont agree with it, I'll dispute it. He's
     picking apart fishermen in general. That detracts from the sport.
     people get the wrong impression when they read B.S. like that.
     "Oh fishermen did 50% of the littering? Well we will have to get rid 
     of them." 
 
     Oh ya I lost a 1/8 oz grub at Singletary Sunday, what should I do
    about it? 

 >   1. Source of the trash
 >   You may be right. There may be others who drop anchors,
 >   rods/reels, lures, beer cans, coffee cups (with the bottoms cut
 >   out---tell you anything?), and cigarette butts too far out for anybody
 >   to throw. 

    	Just a thought but in line with the spirit of the note. One thing
    that would probably help some of these areas (if they don't already have 
    them) is to have a trash barrel/s at the access points (ramps) and/or 
    other convenient locations. 
    
    	I was up at the back side of Pawtuckaway yesterday and noticed that
    there was no barrel. This would most likely help to keep some of the
    trash out of the water and on shore.
    
    	RAYJ

    Problem with that idea is that the town has to empty those barrels, and
    you know how their budgets are.  Fisherman also tend to get well off
    the beaten path, before depositing their trash.
    
    This situation has angred and embarassed me for years.  How can
    fisherman, who presumably have an appreciation for the environment,
    willfully litter so much.  I now carry plastic garbage bags with me
    whenever I go out.  I always take out more than I take in.  No, I don't
    enjoy doing it, and I shouldn't have to, but for now it must be done.
    
    I debate over whether this is the right approach, because if your
    always cleaning up peoples mess, they might begin to expect it.  I just
    can't leave it there.  People will see me picking up the trash, and
    probably assume I'm just going for the deposit bottles and cans.  I get
    the strange looks when I start picking up the fishing line, worm
    containers, food wrappers, etc..  Hopefully they then realize why I'm
    doing it, and hopefully it makes a lasting impression.
    
    Tight Lines...
    
    Al, who's looking forward to the day when the trash bags not necessary.

    re: .22
    
    I would have to agree, but at least you're not alone.  We
    have been taking quite a beating from Mr. H-C over in the
    powerboats (VICKI::BOATS) conference.  See the most recent
    replies in notes 85, 791, 800, 816 and 823 if you're
    interested. 
        
    Rick

    Being a diver I can attest to the garbage on the bottom of lakes
    and rivers I've dove in. I know the fish didn't put it there but
    I never tried to single out any one group of water users that did.
    I can see by the previous note that John is working agendas in
    both notes and I can also see that John is getting individuals in
    both notes a little worked up with his innuendos. Why not just say
    that there are human beings that use the water as a garbage can.
    I think its great that a team of people want to clean up the mess
    that didn't belong there in the first place. So why I think informing
    the general public on the types of trash you find is valuable. I
    believe this might cause some of those folks to think twice before
    littering the waterways. Implying that one group is the major cause
    will not help your crusade.
    
    My $0.02
    Ray
    

    Gee Ray, when I lost that grub on the bottom, if I new you were a 
    diver I would have had you over the side slicker than s___. maybe 
    thats why you didn't tell me ;-).

    John, I am by no means trying to attack what you are doing. I think it
    is commendable that you are showing the initiative to make people aware
    of the crap that gets thrown in the water. No one likes being grouped
    into a class (fishermen) that is getting blamed for something they
    may not have done. I take exception, my trash stays in my boat and
    comes home with me. I dont want to see "Fine for Fishing" signs,
    although the Keg might. Anyway keep up the good work, just blame someone
    else :-).

    BTW, just write your speech in here, it would be better for the
    environment if we all didn't drive to Danvers :-). 

    Rich

    RE: .37
    
    John,
    	I'd like to say that your "stated goals" are admirable and that I
    fully agree that there is far too much trash and pollution in our
    waters.  I also feel that as I read more of what you have to say in all
    the different notes that I find myself wondering what your goals really
    are.  You claim to "tell it like it is", yet I can't help but feel that
    most of what you say is mostly opinion as well as spectulation.  You
    have all the right environmentalist dialogue.  I have no doubt about
    the volume of trash that you find but where it comes from seems to be
    mostly your personal opinion.  Fishermen don't generally throw rods
    overboard any more than they TRY to lose outboards.  Last I knew
    cigarette butts did not sink right where they were dropped nor did
    beer cans that could just as easily have been tossed in near shore and
    floated around till wind and wave action filled them with enough water
    to make them sink.  You talk about trash hidden under the silt.  If it
    was visible and you were doing a cleanup why wasn't it removed?  If it
    was not visible then how do you know it was there?
       What am I getting at?  I'm not really sure.  If you really are as
    concerned with all these underwater living things why haven't you spent
    more time studying the animals and the habitat that you claim to be
    protecting?  You say you can't tell whether a fish is a largemouth bass
    if you can't see its lateral line?  You talk about seeing all kinds of
    other fish that you can't identify?  You talk about lakes turning over
    in the spring?  I'm sorry, but it takes more than buzz words and
    claiming to be doing what's best for everyone concerned to convince me.
       I had given some thought to volunteering my boat for your survey at
    Winni.  Your attitude is what changed my mind.  You see, I've got a
    new boat and the owners manual tells me to spend some time at full
    throttle as part of the break in procedure.  I am thankful that you
    told us to stay out of "your" part of the lake.  After all, we still
    don't know where all the sewage from "your cove association" goes.
    
    					B.C.

 To be honest, I can't see what all the fuss is about. I think John is doing
a very important and helpful service for the angling community and the community
at large. I applaud his efforts.

 I hear alot of complaints about his blaming much of the problem on fishermen.
I think that alot of the problem lies with fishermen. I also think that it's
important that we all do our part to ensure that all of the fishermen that we 
know are NOT being part of the problem. I went fishing with a guy who tossed
his empty beer can on the ground. I picked it up and told him I'd never fish 
with him again over it. He told me to lighten up. Sorry- I can't agree.

 Most of us would never intentionally harm the environment. Sometimes we are
thoughtless though. If we can raise our awareness to the point where we no 
longer make the little mistakes that contribute to the problem we'll all be
better off.

 Like hunting, I get the feeling that this is a case of a few slobs ruining it
for the many. I don't mean to preach to the choir or anything (cuz I know you
guys are all careful about picking up your trash etc) but I can't stand it when
I drive for hours and hike through the woods to find a "pristine" pond and find
all sorts of trash from fishermen� (or anyone else) strewn about. It's a drag.

 Anyway, my point is that John is doing something that we ought to be grateful 
for. And I think that people might want to stop focussing on his "attitude"
or his "hidden agenda" and compare what he's doing to what you're doing. I
can deal with a little bit of "holier than thou" from someone who's doing 
something better than I can deal with the inevitable "well I didn't do it."
Nobody said you did. it's a case of "if the shoe fits..." If it doesn't, don't
worry about it. I don't.

 The Doctah (who has not always paid enough attention to taking care of his
trash but who's trying to make up for it now...)

    
     I wish I could say what I want to you Levesque but I know it'll
     get deleted in a keystroke.
    
     If you want to put yourself in that stereotype don't drag the rest
     of us with you. 
    
     I have to go... I have to rip the bottoms out of some coffee cups
     and throw some beer cans in my local fishing hole. That's my
     "holy-er than though" attitude and remember were all entitled
     to our opinions here, it's an open forum.
    
      - Dave
            

    Wasn't there an old sang about honey and vinegar? 

    > I wish I could say what I want to you Levesque but I know it'll
    > get deleted in a keystroke.
    
     MAIL works just fine.

    RE: .42
    
       I'm not trying to make a big fuss about it.  I said that I agree
    with his stated goals.  I too am one of those pain in the ass guys
    who makes people turn the boat around to pick up butts, I give people
    who litter from cars a REAL hard time also.  I was raised to love and
    care for the environment.  If John is being completely open about his
    ultimate goals that's great.  If he's doing everything he can in the
    time he has to devote to it that's great too.  Just don't tell me that
    someone is an expert on environmental issues if they're not.  I'm not
    writing this to beat on John.  I do feel however that there are far
    too many self appointed experts out there today who feel that all they
    have to do is say that something is good for the environment and every-
    one is supposed to jump on the band wagon and support them.  I'm sorry.
    You talk about hidden agendas?  They're everywhere today.  Bills don't
    stand a chance of going through congress without some special interest
    group wanting to tack something onto them.  People are out raising
    money for charities without even knowing where all the money is going.
    I'm the type who asks lots of questions first.  I don't support every
    cause that sounds good up front.  If John tells me he has a team of
    marine biologists, or even marine biology students, going down for a
    scientific study of what's down there he stands a much better chance
    of getting my support than he does with a group of divers who are
    going to get an hour or two of training on what to look for and then
    give me their opinion of what they saw.
       Call me an asshole if you want... call me anything you want...
    But I'm going to keep raising questions and keep waiting for straight
    answers.
    
    			B.C. 

>    I do feel however that there are far
>    too many self appointed experts out there today who feel that all they
>    have to do is say that something is good for the environment and every-
>    one is supposed to jump on the band wagon and support them.
    
     I'll agree with this.
    
>    But I'm going to keep raising questions and keep waiting for straight
>    answers.
    
     There's nothing wrong with this. I do it myself.
    
     If it appeared that my note was directed towards you; I apologize. I
    wasn't directing it to anyone in particular. I got a general sense that
    people were getting on John's case for the sake of getting on his case;
    maybe that was inaccurate. Anyway, I wasn't trying to alienate anyone.
    We are all in this together. I don't think anybody wants to see
    habitats get destroyed.
    
     If all of us take back every piece of trash that we generate, that is
    very good. Unfortunately, it isn't good enough because those that came
    before us didn't bother to do that. We have to undo the damage that has
    already been done in addition to preventing further damage from
    occurring. I don't know about you, but I don't have alot of free time
    to go around cleaning up after other slobs, so when I hear that
    somebody else is taking that initiative, I feel pretty supportive.
    
     Now maybe John's notes in other conferences support the "hidden
    agenda" theory, maybe not. I don't know; I haven't seen them. I am
    willing to take what he says at face value even while I question some
    of his conclusions because at least he is willing to put forth more
    effort than I am. I figure that has to count for something.
    
     The Doctah
    

    Anyone who also follows the powerboats conference knows that
    the "fuss" about.  Apparently John has deleted most of the 
    inflammatory comments in the boats conference that I had mentioned 
    in a previous note, but left the ones in which he says all the 
    "right things".  Let me try to sum up the ones that were deleted: 
 
    - Anyone *accidentally* who kills a diver while a flag is displayed,
      is guilty of borderline second degree murder.

    - No water skiing should be allowed anywhere on the Concord River,
      including the wide open sections in Bedford and Billerica.

    - No one should be allowed to waterski anywhere near John's house
      on Lake Winnipesaukee.  John and his neighbors are armed with
      with binnoculars and will report anyone who does so to the Marine 
      Patrol.  We have been assured that while this area is not presently
      a "no skiing zone", he will see to it that it is soon.

    - Anyone whose boat goes over 35 mph and cannot limit themselves
      to that speed has been requested to "please stay away for the 
      whole summer".

    - Did I miss any?

    I'd just like to say that not all of us can afford to own our own
    home on Lake Winnipesaukee, and the only way we can enjoy it is from
    our boats.  Any home owner who proposes to legislate all the fun out
    of boating and blames all the problems on everyone but himself should 
    also keep an eye over their shoulder.  Because if he succeeds, the 
    next group to come along will be whining about the destruction of the 
    lake's shoreline and the surrounding land, and will be attempting to 
    have all the houses torn down and the land returned to nature.  After 
    all, if we're going to limit access and restore the lake why not go all 
    the way?  It would be pretty tough for any homeowner to argue that his
    house, septic system, man made beach, dock, etc. aren't contributing 
    to the rape of the lake.  I'm sure every homeowner who is concerned 
    about the lake would comply and tear down his house, right?

    Rick

     I'm afraid that, IMO, fishermen are a big part of the problem. As I've
    said before, when I go into Wachusett Reservoir, I find all kinds of
    garbage - and it's fishing garbage (Line, bait containers, etc.). I
    don't think that a "Small percentage of fishermen" could do all this,
    unless they're workin' 3 shifts and bringin' bags of crap in with them.
    
     All I can do is make sure I don't do it, give those who do a lot of
    heat and encourage folks who are active in the environment. It doesn't
    hurt to join TU, BASS or other organizations either.
    
    --The Skoal Bandit

    I see now that some of the fuss is due to other issues/opinions that
    have not been a topic in this note. In fact they seem to be from
    another notes conference.
    
    Do we need to bring them up again or shouldn't we stick to this topic's
    title.
    
    Don

    Yes, John post your reports.

    For the dieing off of bass, when do you see the most dead fish?
    my experience has been in the early spring. That would lead me to
    believe that they are dieing from oxygen depletion over the winter. 
    If they were summer kills I would attribute more to being gut hooked, 
    or poor handling.

    Rich

    Yes, please post the reports.  I find them interesting and useful.  I
    liked the one on White's since I've fished there off and on for over 30
    years, but never knew what was "underneath."  
    
    I do have to admit that I winced at your comments about the trash being
    mostly the result of inconsiderate fishermen (my words, not yours), but
    then there are groups that I'm sure I generalize upon too.
    
    Keep the reports coming.  And say hello to Larry Twaits for me.  He
    lives next door to my dad.
    
    Pete

    
      Please post them ! I do enjoy reading them.
    
    
                                                       kiv

    I, too, would like to continue to see your reports.
    
    On a different, but related subject....you mentioned coffee cups with
    the bottoms cut out.....and that we should know what that meants. Well
    I'll say it....I don't know what that meants. Could you or anyone else
    please enlighten me. If it is sensitive and would cause moderator(s) to
    take some corrective action, contact me offline via mail or phone
    287-3308.
    
    						Thanks in Advance
    						Ed (Its' a Lunker) G.
    

    John,  Please do continue...
    
    
    Ed G. ,   As soon as you find out about those cups,  let me know too! 
    I did sctatch my head, in wonderment, when I read that.
    
    
    Don

    John,
    
    	while you're writing maybe you could fill me in on something.
    I was boating the Sudbury River and the Concord last weekend, and
    I noticed areas were posted "Don't eat fish, contamination" ! 
    What is the cause of this "known" contamination ?
    	In particular I remember the signs near the boathouse on RT 62.
    Anyone else aware of what the problem is ?
    
    
    			Steve

       Some bait fishermen cut the bottom out of the cup and slide it
    down over the end of the rod.  When a fish takes the bait the cup is
    pulled off the rod and signals the fisherman like a flag dropping.
    I'd suggest either one of the commercial signals (there is a great
    variety on the market) or, if you're too cheap or can't afford them,
    we used to use a tin can with a flat strip of wood across the top.
    Wrap your line once around a small rock and place the rock on the
    wood.  When a fish runs with the bait you hear a CLUNK as the rock
    falls in the can.  If there are 2 or more people fishing at night you
    use different sized cans and rocks to kind of personalize the sound.
    
    				B.C.
    
       Don't forget to take the can with you when you leave!

    Steve,
    		Mercury Poisoning. Were is from? Not sure, but the 
    Wayland and Sudbury dump are very close to.

    Is there a hospital in the vicinity?  Back in the '60's some Lake
    Champlain mercury poisoning was attributed to the hospital.  Seems 
    they thought since the mercury sinks to the bottom it would be 
    harmless.  
    
    We were warned not to eat fish from the lake more than once a week....
    
    (We used to live near Nourse's at Malletts Bay.) 
    
    Nancy

    I'm a few days behind on notes so I haven't read all the previous
    replies but - 
    
    I too enjoy reading these comments from the deep, it's educational
    for me.
    
    -donmac
    

 I'd appreciate it if you'd continue to post the DES reports.

	If you think Schoodic is a clean and healthy lake now you should have 
seen it 20 years ago. You did not need scuba equipment to explore the bottom 
at 20' plus depths; you could just swim around and look down. Thanks for the 
ice out notice.  Jim

PS I will send email to request the report

	John,

	What I meant was,  20 years ago you could swim and look down 20 plus 
feet and see rocks and a clearly defined shadow of the rock. Over the years 
there is now some moss/ silt on the rocks/ bottom and the bottom is not as 
clearly defined. As youngsters my cousins and I would do down east version of 
diving. You sit in a inner tube and find the approiate size rock, place the 
rock on your stomach and paddle out to the spot you want to dive, hold the 
sides of the rock and roll off the tube in suto surface dive. We could get 
down 20 feet in a hurry and look around for a while then start back up for 
air. We were able to recover a small outboard for a neighbor this way. 
Just don't get your hands pinched between the rock and bottom at the end of 
the decent...ouch.

Jim

	Our family has a waterfront camp near the Brownville Junction town 
ramp. The camp adjacent to the ramp used to be a general store / marina. The 
Aires bought it in the mid eighties and converted it to a camp. I not sure 
they still own it though cause they built a new house a liitle father away.

 I highly doubt that you were seeing brown trout fry for two reasons. First
and foremost, the size of the fish you describe sounds too small. When I was
a kid, we had a beautiful little stream by our house which was populated with 
wild brook trout. I saw tiny trout, some of which still had egg sacks on them,
and they were about a third of an inch long, minimum. I don't think that the 
fish you describe are large enough to be trout. Second, the number of fish you
see sounds mighty suspect in a pond that needs to maintain a heavy stocking 
program to keep a population of catchable trout. It seems to me that in order
for you to see a concentration of that many fish, the natural population would
have to be healthy and capable of making a significant spawn. It is not my 
impression that the trout in this pond are numerous enough to allow such a
prolific spawn, though my information on the pond in question is second hand.
Then again, not being an ichthyologist, I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound
like brown trout fry to me.

 The Doctah