Conference wahoo::fishing

    Mike,
    
      Sorry, I don't have any feedback on the Ultra-ID Plus, but I
    do have a question for you. I was looking at my Pro Bass catalog,
    and they show the Ultra-ID Plus and the Ultra-ID. They show the
    only difference in the 2 units as the Plus having Temp, Speed and
    Distance log. Does that require you buying a special speed indicator
    (paddle wheel), or is that included in the price of the unit??? I
    didn't see a seperate speed "paddle wheel" listed for this unit in
    the catalog. Also, how accurate do they claim the speed indicator to
    be??? Does it get to the tenth of a mile??? If so, it sounds like a
    good unit.
    
    -Ron-
    

    	Not sure about the ULTRA-ID or the PLUS feature.  However, I was
    "BORROWING" (unfortunately, he learned how to use it ice fishing this
    winter) my brother's FISH-ID last year.  Never had a lick of trouble
    from the unit.  I was getting as good a response from it as the guy
    next to me using a $500.00 Bottom Line unit.  You will get a little
    more definition from the ULTRA than from the FISH model due to the
    increased pixels on the screen.  If you are looking for fish from
    top-to-bottom, this is a plus.  If you ZOOM, it is not as great a
    difference.  Other than that, I fell in LOVE with the unit.  However,
    it looks like my tax refund check will become a Hummingbird LCR400 unit
    rather than a FISH-ID.  (I know, MY SCOTCH IS SHOWING AGAIN!!!!)
    	One thing, if this is for a BASS BOAT, get the extra trolling motor
    foot mount transducer and the switch (unless you're cheap like me and
    design your own transducer switch).  When you are vertical jigging, you
    want the transducer RIGHT UNDER YOUR FEET, not at the rear of the
    boat!!

    
    Hi Guy's,,,,,
    
        I've been trolling for trout from a boat for a few years now. Is a
        depth finder worth having? I'm looking at a new boat and it has one
        included.I was wondering if it will help fill the creel.
    
                                            Thx...................Vic

    Yes it will. W hile it doesn't guarantee a catch it will help you
    locate fish. This is especially good during the summer months when
    the fish could be quite deep. Just put your lure above a couple
    of feet of the fish you are seeing. Works for me.
    
    
                                       Jeff

    According to my partner "Sky" King, Winni has hard water as of
    yesterday.

    I have the Fish ID Plus and have used it for a season. It came with
    
    the speed/temp/distance log. I'm sure the Ultra ID Plus comes with
    the same equipment because the standard Ultra ID and Fish ID don't come
    with the unit. I've really enjoyed using my finder and found it is very
    accurrate in locating structure and dropoffs. The speed indicator is
    very accurate and the temp sensor is good to have in the unit. The
    distance log aleast lets me know how far I've gone for my $20 in gas.
    The difference in the 2 units is the Ultra has a split screen
    capability and some other small features. The screen is not that much
    bigger than the Fish ID but the price is +$120. They both will do a
    good job but for the extra $$$ get the Plus model in either one.
    

    Ron I sent a response on your note but I forgot to add one answer 
    you were looking for. The ID PLUS do measure in tenths in all
    areas speed/temp/distance. I purchased a special trolling motor mount for
    my transducer and have it on the front of the boat. The temp/speed
    device is mounted on the transom. On the Fish Id Plus you have 7
    screens you can chose. On one screen you can get speed temp in large 
    numbers so you can read them from the console of your boat if you
    have the unit mounted in the bow.                              

    
         Ron the Ultra I.D PLus does come with The paddle wheel
     For the price. Which I paid 319.00 out of Bass Pro and I did 
     check in the yard it does read  tenths of a second. Also My
     Boat is 14FT Deep V  combo lake and bass boat. Does any body
     know if the transducer is mounted on the back. Were does it
     pick the fish from. Under the boat around the boat or ahead of
     the boat. Heys lets kept this file open till the lakes start
     to open up.
    
                                     Thanks Again 
    
                                                   Mike Gallo  
                                                 

    re: .6,.7,.8  Info on the Ultra I.D. Plus
    
      Thanks for the info guys. Thinking real serious about getting
    one. Sounds like it will do everything I was looking for.
    
    -Ron-

    re: .8

    	The following is a description of the workings of the transducer
    and LCG to form the picture you see.  If you know this, HIT NEXT
    UNSEEN.
    
    	As for what happens and WHERE you are looking at fish with
    transducer mounting, think of it like looking at something using a
    funnel. Look into the hole at the narrow end of the funnel and put the
    other end of the funnel onto a surface.  ANYTHING located within the
    funnel will look like it is EVERYWHERE within the funnel.  You can't
    see anything outside the cone of the funnel.  The detection of fish is
    done by getting a reflection from the air bladder of the fish.  This
    LOW LEVEL reflection (with respect to the amount of signal being
    reflected from the bottom of the lake) with the second bottom
    reflection, lets the unit show fish as dots (computer inside the unit
    draws the FISH symbol) with another reflection at a greater depth.  A
    smaller diameter funnel will let you see farther than a wide funnel due
    to the amount of data you are trying to pack into your brain.  With
    this in mind, for shallow water, you want a wide beam transducer (40
    degree unit) and a narrow beam unit for deep water use (<=10 degree). 
    Most units come with a compromise transducer of 16-20 degree beam
    width.  
    	Now, the transducer has NO IDEA of WHERE within the beam the object
    it is detecting is located.  So, ANYTHING within the cone will reflect
    as an object.  (3D unit can be used to detect WHERE within the beam the
    reflecting object is located by changing the position of the cone and
    find WHICH angles reflect from the object and which don't.)  So, only
    experience will be able to let you become somewhat proficient at
    GUESSING where the object was below the transducer to cause the
    reflection.  However, in shallow water (~20 feet) your cone angle
    coverage from a normal angle transducer is ONLY about a 5 foot diameter
    circle.  So, if you can't fully fish 5 foot of water to find where the
    reflection (fish) is located that is causing the reflection, either the
    fish wasn't hungry or was cruising at a pretty good clip and isn't
    there anymore anyway.  
    	What is happening in the LCG is that you have a depth flasher (PINGER). 
    Each time the pinger sends out a signal and gets the reflections back,
    it PUTS these points onto the screen of your LCG.  Then, the computer
    in the LCG remembers this information.  When you get the next signal
    back, the computer moves the display over one display unit and paints
    it on the screen and replaces its old information with the new
    information it just received.  So, actually, all the unit is doing is
    painting x-1 number (x being screen width in display units) of old signal 
    data updated with current signal data.  This forms the picture you see
    on the display.  The more pixels (in the horizontal screen) the unit
    has, the more reflections you will have displayed at any time, and a
    greater coverage distance behind the transducer that will be displayed. 
    More pixels in the vertical screen mean a better display of the
    distances between objects stacked below the transducer.  This is why
    pixel count is important to the data displayed by the unit.    
    	Hope this helps you understand what your unit is doing.  I tend to
    find that I become more proficient with something if I know what it is
    doing.   

    Re: .5
    
    I was planning to invite my folks from PA. up for some ice-out fishing
    on Winnie over the Easter weekend. How likely are we to find
    "non-boatable" conditions?
    
    Fred

    Check note #1079.3 for Winni ice out.

    Speaking of Eagle, I need that paddle wheel for my z7000, as
    it broke last year. Has anyone seen one in a catalog, or do they
    have a number for ordering parts from Eagle ??? That was the second
    wheel I've gone through....I used to be able to buy them at a place
    called Ditillio's in Burlington Vt, but now that I've become a
    flatlander I don't know where to get one...
    I think the force of the water at high speeds is just to much on the
    plastic frame work that surounds the wheel. It gives up when your
    cruising close to 50mph....It sure is great when it works though.
    The temp gauge is invaluable too...If you troll much It's a must if
    you want to catch fish on a consistant basis...IMHO...
    
    Marty

On pgs. 276-278 we have

SS-7 speed sensor for user with Z-7500 (not the 7000 as you mentioned).
    #504-043,  $34.97

    Thanks for the info...I'm off to search through here for a number to
    call and get a Bass Pro catalog...I swore I'd never use them again
    when about 6 years ago they sent me a few items and charged my master
    card account for them that I had not ordered. It wasn't like it was
    a mistake. They were doing it and telling you if you didn't want the
    merchandise you could return it and they would credit your account.
    I haven't heard of anyone having similar problems lately so out
    of desperation I'll call. 

On the back page of the Gander Mountain Marine catalog is a special on the 
Eagle Z-7200 LCR at $199.95 (limited quantities).  This unit was discontinued 
last year.

It's a SUPER deal!  It listed in the BPS catalog for $379.97, and offers
192 pixels vertical, Grayline, adjustable zoom, 500 watts p-t-p, up to
1000' depth range (more likely half that, though), plus transom mount 
transducer.  This unit has BETTER pixel resolution than Eagle's Z-9000/9500!
(No speed sensor available for this unit.)

I had called all around earlier this year looking for one and had just about
given up hope.  My order is in!  


-HSJ-

    Well, here's the scoop from Eagle.The bass pro ss7 must be a typo
    or something because Eagle makes no such thing. They make an ss5
    which is the same as a lowrance sw7 which is what they sell for both the
    z7000 and the z7500. I asked a technical rep about problems with
    breakage at speed and he hadn't heard anything about it. He also
    said that they were rated for use up to 100 mph ??? Maybe I have
    hull vibrations in that particular area that the plastic frame to
    the paddle wheel is sensitive to...anyways, eagle wants 79$ for it,
    I called basspro, but their computers are down...oh well, try again
    tomorrow!
    
    Marty
    

    Does anyone have an Apelco XCD-241 or XCD-300?  I'm looking for a
    low-end LCD recorder but have very limited mounting space.  Of the
    Eagle Fish-ID, The Humminbird LCR-400, and the Apelco, only the latter
    seems to have a bracket that will swivel all the way to the top of the
    unit, allowing it to hang below the mounting point.  It also seems to
    be thinner than the others so if I could find room on the panel it
    would be less likely to get too close to the steering wheel.  But
    Apelco has not been mentioned in the major topics on LCD finders.

    I'm interested in getting a portable LCD recorder.  I have a canoe, so
    I have no source of charging voltage from a motor.  A  few
    questions: How long do the batteries on a portable unit last?  Could
    you hook up a solar cell arrangement to charge them up if you had
    rechargeable batteries?   Can you use rechargeable batteries to run the
    unit?  Ni-cads or gel-cell types?  Anyone have any experience with
    portable units?  Any brand recommendations?
    

    I have an Apelco XCD300, and am very pleased with its performance.
    I too went through the process of deciding Apelco/Humminbird/Raytheon
    etc.. 
    I also had to consider my needs vs the cost. I selected Apelco, because
    of the cost over Raytheon(not to mention I could purchase it through
    a Ratheon employee at a reduced cost), but I also believe that the
    options on this model out weigh the competitors. I also needed to mount
    the unit in a small space on a center console. This is a great low
    profile with high resolution. I decided to get the unit with the temp
    and speed, but honestly, that is an option I did not really need
    for salt water fishing, but nice to have.
    
    Joe. 

    I installed my new Apelco XCD241 unit yesterday.  I wound up throwing
    away the mounting bracket and flush mounting the unit to the console -
    took the least amount of space.
    
    The biggest thrill was mounting the transducer while the boat was in
    the water.  I didn't feel like going through the trouble of pulling the
    boat.  Fine finger control isn't great at 53 degrees F, is it?   
    
    I'm very happy with the unit.  The speed and temp are real useful
    bonuses (the latter tells you you're an idiot to do in-water hull work
    at 53F).  It also has a NAV mode where you get just the depth/temp/speed
    but in full-screen characters - useful while underway out to the fish.
    
    The question I have is about the automatic gain setting.   The
    automatic depth range switching is obvious, but for the gain what
    criteria is it using?   If I put the unit in "manual gain" and crank it
    up, at a certain point I start seeing more and more "fish" echos.  I
    believe these are false echoes, so I let the unit decide on the gain.
    
    But how is it deciding this?   How does it know that a fish is fish?

RE: .21

Jim,
I installed the XCD300 in my boat earlier this spring.  You say you got
the navigation, temp, speed and depth readout features with the XCD241? 
According to all the catalogs I looked at, those features do not come 
with the 241, and if you want them you have to buy the 300.  Did I get 
taken by spending the extra money to get those features?

I like mine too, but have also run into the same problem with the gain that
you mentioned.  The manual only tells how to set it, it does nothing to
explain *how* it works, or under what circumstances you should choose manual
instead of auto-gain mode.  After some experimentation I've found it's best
to just leave it in auto mode.  If you set the gain too high in manual mode
you'll see so much echo that it appears there are two bottoms, one about
20-30 feet below the other.

As far as how it determines when a fish is a fish, I haven't the foggiest
idea.

Rick

    You're right, I have an XCD300, not an XCD241.
    
    I also concluded that it's probably best to leave the gain on
    automatic.  If you turn it up all the way you see zillions of "fish".
    Just looking in the water confirms they're not there.
    
    Have you used yours enough to confirm that there are really fish
    where it says there are (in auto gain mode)?
    
    
    

    Recent issues of both In-Fisherman and Trailer Boats had discussions on
    how depth/fish finders function. These issues are this year and I
    believe since March for both mags.  Very basically, fish are just
    another echo to the unit (it is a type of sonar) that is not filtered
    out as noise and is not the bottom.  The size of the fish displayed on
    the unit can be a combination of range, gain and size of fish (or size
    of bait cloud).  As for gain, I also have an Apelco (can't for the life
    of me remember which model) and I generally use manual mode on gain. 
    Basically, I drop the gain on the lowest setting possible to still get
    good clean readings from the bottom.  This eliminates (along with IR) a
    lot of other interference.  It also eliminates smaller fish or trash
    from displaying (I use my boat in Puget Sound and am generally after
    salmon).  I probably do miss some larger fish this way but I prefer
    manual gain to auto.  I found that the gain does not necessarily lower
    as quickly as I would like it in auto mode (due to whatever averaging
    algorithm Apelco use in the AGC) and prefer to control it myself.
    
    Mike S.
    

    On the back cover of this month's BASS Times there is an advertisement
    for Hummingbird's new 3 dimensional unit.  Looks pretty amazing.  Has
    anyone seen any 3d units in use?
    
    donmac