Conference wahoo::fishing

Well, elsewhere in this conference you'll find a topic or two with a lot
of replies, relating exactly to trailer pullers.

There are a few variables which you haven't filled in your request for
info. Like, where are you, what kind of ramps do you frequent, what kind
of roads do you travel when you pull the boat...

Over the past 32 years I've owned eight boats, all of them trailered. If
I lived in a city close by an "improved" ramp I might agree that you can
have a trailer puller (pulling the very considerable weight you mention)
and get 20+ mpg.

I live in NH, have some formidable hills to climb (on I-93), and use
"average" boat ramps to launch my 24' cuddy.
Boat+engine+fuel+gear+trailer=5600� lbs real weight, not
guestimated. Note that the real weight is considerably more than what the
boat manufacturer said. They lie. Total weight and tongue weight also vary
according to the state of the 120 gal fuel tank. 

My full-sized Bronco with 302 V8 was just slightly _underpowered_ for the
rig. I replaced it (after six years and 104k miles) with another
full-sized Bronco with a 351 V8 and feel that I have an *adequate* rig.

Probably fighting words, and I'll probably hear "Well I pull a Bertram
with an Escort and I've never had a problem" -- but I believe that the
loss of control when the trailer weight (mass) exceeds the pulling
vehicle weight is not worth the mpg gain. That's why I have two vehicles
in the driveway. If I have to make a compromise, I'll either shrink the
boat or eat the bad gas mileage on an adequate puller. I have driven
friends' rigs where the trailer controls the puller and it ain't fun.

On_the_soapbox,

Art

Hummm...

Ever considered running an ad for a used elephant?

They don't rust out.

They'll pull just about anything.

They'll go just about anywhere.

They can hose your boat down to clean it.

and...


They run on peanuts!

heh...heh...

           Well, I can't say much about pulling boats but my wife
    and I own a horse, which gets trailered around a lot.  We were
    told that those so called "mid-size" trucks and such could do
    the job just fine.  But we didn't want to compromise on the safety
    factor of having the proper vehicle to do the proper job.  We own
    a 3/4 ton Chevy 4X4 with a 350 V8, heavy duty everything.  Sure
    we don't get the best gas mileage but on the other hand we've
    never had a problem, at all, towing horse and trailer.  I guess
    what I'm saying is, sometimes it's better to spend alittle more
    for gas and not have to worry about whether or not your vehicle
    can do the job..........
    
           Just my $ .02,
    
               Bob

I realized (last night) that the most extensive trailering info might be
in the BOATS conference. I went over there and did a SHO KEY TRAILER and
here's what turned up:

6, 7, 25, 48, 55, 56, 164, 223, 314, 337, 371, 398

...some of these have long lists of replies, with much experience shared.

The conference is on VICKI::BOATS. If I can figure out how to do it, you
can just hit <SELECT> to add it to your notebook. If not, just add it by
hand.

I take trailering very seriously.

Art

p.s. (You might try the LOCK::4WD conference, also.)

483, 601, 823, 1019, 1127

Marty,
	What your looking for is going to be almost impossible to find for the
money you want to spend. But I'll give you my .02 worth. First off forget 
anything with a 4 cylinder engine. They just don't have the Cubic Inches to 
move the kind of weight your talking about. I'm sure somebody out there has 
moved 3500 lbs with a 4 CYL but this is an extreme.
	There are alot of vehicles with 6 cylinder and up engines rated to pull
the kind of weight your talking about. But as you mentioned you need certain 
things beside the right engine to do this. Usally the bigger the engine the more
weight you can pull. What you really need to pull something is Torque and not 
necessarly Horsepower allthought usally a high HP engine also has a lot of 
torque. 
	If any engine does'nt have alot of Torque because it's smaller, you can
get by this with gearing. You go to a higher numerical ratio. 4.11 to 1 instead
of 3.08 to 1. But the lower numerical ratio gearing gets you better gas mileage.
I believe you can also accomplish this with gearing in the transmission as well.
Speaking of transmissions I would recommend an automatic. The torque converter
in an automatic transmission acts as a great buffer when you first start to pull
something. A clutch on a manual transmission isn't anywhere as near efficient at
doing this. If you don't believe me try to pull something up a hill from a dead
stop with both type of set ups. You'll answer that question real fast.
	But as you know again usally a standard version of a vehicle gets better 
milelage than the automatic version,although the automatics with overdrive now a 
days do a pretty  good job. For the kind of money you want to spend I can only 
think of two alternatives. The first one is a desiel type of pickup.They have 
been around for a while and are usally higher torque engines that get good 
milage. The other engine I know about,is, FORD has made a 300 cubic inch Six
cylinder engine for years. I've owned a couple of these and I got around 20 
miles to a gallon. But I always had the lower numerical ration gearing in my
trucks for the mileage.
	Since 1985 and after, almost all the car and truck manufactors have gone
to smaller cubic inch engines with Fuel injection,Throttle body injection,
Turbos,ect,ect. I own a 1988 Jeep Cherokee with the 4.0 liter fuel injected
engine. I bought it allset up to tow 5000 lbs if necessary. It does get better
than 20 miles to the gallon overall,but obviously not when your towing. The new
Chevy trucks with the 4.3 liter 6 cyl engine also is capable of doing the same 
thing. I would think there's some other manufactors that have engines simaliar 
to mine and the Chevys that have the horsepwoer and torque to do the job and 
still get recent gas mileage.
	But I don't think you'll find a 85 or after for what you want to spend.
I think you'll have to compromise and get something that can safely do the job 
but milage will probably fall between 12-15 Miles per Gallon. Again as someone 
mentioned early don't skimp on getting something undersized to get better mileage,
go with less mileage and more towing capacity.

				Good Luck,
					Gary

    Hmmm, lots of info, but I would think that there's somebody
    out there happily towing boats in the 19 ft range with the
    smaller v6 engines...Does anyone use a Bronco II , chevy
    s10, Toyota or Nissan 4x4 ? I don't have any expectation of
    getting over 20 miles a gallon towing, but all these
    vehicles will do better then that commuting. I also think
    some of these might fall around my price range for a 1985 ???
    I'm not concerned about ramps...I launch everywhere from small
    dirt ramps on Champlain and Ontario to improved ones at hampton
    and Rye. Four wheel low on any of these vehicles makes it a
    non issue. Highway towing seems to be the real problem. 
    My trailer is a single axle so I think it will tend to follow
    better then a dual. I'm adding trailer brakes so stopping
    should be ok too. I used to have a nissan 4x4 but never towed
    with it, and it seems it's curb weight was around 4500lbs.
    Bye the time you add people, gas gear etc. to it it must be up
    over 5000 lbs. This works out to the trailer only being 41%
    of the combined weight of the vehicle and trailer, which
    doesn't sound to bad...Maybe I should put 1500$ into having
    a total engine rebuild on the wagoneer, and dump another
    1500 into a used escort or something....Decisions decisions...
    
    Art,
    I did look through boats and 4wd, but I figured the keyword
    TRAILER would probably give me info on trailers, not necesarily
    tow vehicles,. The net has been super slow lately from here, so
    I didn't bother looking through topics that might not be what
    I was looking for. If it gets better, I'll poke through. (It's
    to the point that when I enter this if I decide to delete the
    previous 3 characters you hit delete 3 times and then wait 30
    seconds!)
    
    Marty

    I tow a 19' Invader cuddy, about 3500 lbs. of boat and trailer before
    gas or gear with an 87 Chevy S10 Blazer. Don't tow often because
    I keep the boat in storage on Puget Sound.  It has enough power
    to tow @55mph on flat road or reasonable (2%-4%) grades.  Over that,
    well.......  Get's it in and out of the water with no problem, the
    marina I use has a very steep ramp and it hauls it out ok.  Don't
    run the ac on hills, you'll heat up much quicker.
    Also, towing shortens vehicle life by some degree based upon the
    size of vehicle, size of engine, how much you tow, how often and
    where.  I don't tow often and it's enough vehicle to handle my boat
    (S10 rated at 5000lbs (w/load distributing hitch)).  Trailer brakes
    are a must, especially with a smaller tow vehicle.  Also, I am not
    sure I would want to try 65 towing that ratio of load to vehicle.
     A heavy wind gust, or that fool in front that stops or cuts you
    off, isn't worried about what that weight will do to you when you
    try to stop it.
    
    Side note
    
    A small utility, even though rated for that towing, sure looks funny
    towing a boat/trailer combo so much bigger.
    
    MJS
    

    re .8
    Does your Blazer have the 2.8 L engine and is it a standard or
    an automatic. It sounds like something like that might be
    ideal. I assume the older s10's (83-85) probably have similiar
    power and towing capacities. 
    
    Marty

Marty,
	I believe a 6 cylinder will do the job for you. As you mentioned a 4x4
would be nice incase you have to use low range for a very steep ramp. If you 
plan to take your boat any great distances I would still try to find something
with a small V-8. On the flats once you get going a 6 cylinder can do the job.
But a long distance,a hot day,steeper inclines,you will surely wish your engine
has enough reserve power to handle an extreme. If this isn't a concern then I 
believe you can find something with a 6 cylinder in it for the price you want.
	Again I'd recomend a automatic transmission. Usally when towing heavy 
loads a transmission cooler and a heavy duty radiator are pluses. Getting a
vehicle that has the tranny cooler on it probably won't happen,but they do make
after market add ons. A heavy duty radiator isn't as uncommon though,usally
any vehicle that has air conditioning,has a bigger radiator installed in it,vrs
the same vehicle without air conditioning. As someone already mentioned the bulk
of your trailer load compared to the size and GVW will determind what else you
need.

					Gary

    re.9
    
    It's the 2.8L automatic.  I purchased it with the trailering package
    which includes tranny cooler, heavy duty radiater, 3.73 rear end
    (Ithink), heavy duty suspension, etc.  Again, it handles the load,
    but don't expect fast uphill (auto Blazer S-10's don't go fast uphill,
    load or not).  For the most part, it drives the same with or without
    the boat.  Make sure you have your tounge weignt set right for the
    combo you are using.
    
    MJS
    

    I've got an Aerostar with the V-6 and I wish I had my old Cheby
    Van with the 350 back, rust or no rust! The V-6 does OK, but the
    gas consumption goes down to 12 (from 23) and hills are ALWAYS a
    downshift.
    
    The load is a single axle with about 3,300 lbs (19 foot I/O). What
    you need to do is get from 5% to 7% of the total trailer and boat
    weight on the tongue. Too heavy and you loose vehicle control, too
    light and the trailer will wander all over the place. (fish tail)
    
    Don

    It sounds like I either have to find one that was set up for
    towing to begin with, or dump another grand into a vehicle to
    set it up properly...That eliminates at least one low mileage
    s10 that I was thinking about. The price was right at 4500 too,
    but it had a 5 speed, and the normal rearend. If the towing power
    is marginal to begin with going with the wrong rearend and a
    5 speed will certainly be unsatisfactory...

    re .12
    Don,
    The boat tows real stable now. It never wonders or fish tails,
    and I've had it up to 70 mph on some of the down hill stretches.
    I really like the idea of the Aerostar. You don't see any used
    ones on the market though. That must say something for them!
    
    Marty
    

>    Third - I got to buy a new truck. A new tow vechile for the baot. Boat
>    is I guess about 2500 lbs (16+ fot glass, 70 hp, 22 gallon inboard
>    tank, gear, + trailer. I own a 4x4 Nissan King-cab. Love it.
>    Its tight, Put a cap on the back so I can still do dump stuff and still
>    go steelheading in NY during winter months and hav protection of gear
>    from the weather. But its a 4 cylinder. I need a 6 in that truck. ANd
>    cant take it anymore.
>    Looking at a Pathfinder. 6 cylinders. But it TOO Pretty. I cant put the
>    BAndit in that. What a mess he makes. How I go to the dump?
>    Who has switched from Japan to USA and the reverse?   
>    PLEASE no USA vs Japan debate.
    
    Jack, since there's a topic on this already, we don't have to rathole
    it.
    
    
    
    

     I wonder what kind of vehicles are the black "Official Bassmasters
    Classic" vehicles ? Probably Blazers or "Jimmys." They must be ideal
    for at least towing a bass boat, since most guys have those monster
    Rangers.
    
    --The Skoal Bandit

    re. 'official bassmasters classic tow vehicles'
    
    Yeap, they're Chevy's but I don't think the merits of the vehicle made
    them the 'official' vehicle, I'd guess that Chevrolet's endorsements and
    sponsorships may have had just a *little* to do with it 8^)... 
    
    Jack, why not another truck like yours, but with the 6cyl? 
    
    Now that I'm towing close to 2Klbs I'm also wishing I had a 6cyl.  I
    can't say enough good things about my Toyota 4x4.  77K miles w/o a 
    problem.  I expect I'll be replacing my original tires and brakes 
    during next month's inspection.
    
    I plan on keeping it another 2 years, putting another 40-50K on it, but
    if I were to replace it today, it would definitely be replaced with a
    another Toyota 4x4, but this time a 6yl extra cab. 
    
    donmac

     I hear ya, DonMac, but I was just thinkin' that even if those guys got
    the 'Chebbys for free, if the vehicle didn't do a good job pulling the
    boats all over the place they'd trade 'em. I thought GM probably
    gave 'em the truck best suited to what they'd use it for. I also
    thought that a Blazer type vehicle would ride better than a truck with
    a cap.
    
    --Bandito

    The boat's notesfile on VICKI::BOATS has many notes on tow vehicles.
    
    Check it out...
    
    Capt. Codfish

    Neither the trucks, nor the boats, that are used at the Classic are
    owned by the contestants.  They are provided by Ranger and Chevy.  
    
    Obviously many of the pros own Rangers, but many do not.  Rick Clunn,
    this year's winner for example is driving/providing-sponsorship for
    Tracker/Nitro.  
    
    Chevy is also sponsoring a bunch of folks lately, but from what I've 
    noticed on the tvshows, surburbans seem more prevelant.  I've only 
    noticed the blazers during the BASS weigh-ins.
    
    Another example, Roland Martin is sponsored by Chevy and drives a
    surburban in his tv show.  However, while down at Roland's Marina 
    at Okeechobee when we fished with pro Steve Daniel, Steve said that he
    tows both his and Roland's Rangers to alot of tournaments using Roland's 
    double decker Ranger Trail with his (Steve's) Ford van.  Roland flies.
    
    Sponsorship is everything. 
    
    donmac

Thats Because Roland has so much money and has so many pokes in the fire he
does not even have the time to prefish the tournaments any more.  The only
reason he still fishes bass is to keep his sponsers happy..

BB

This summer I went from a Nissan King Cab 4*4 to a 4*2 Ford Ranger with the 
4.0L V6

I absloutely love the Ranger. The 4.0L V6 is very smooth and powerful and as 
yet have not missed the 4*4 (winter will tell).

The Ranger is rated for 6k towing but my crawdad and trailer is only 350lbs 
or so thus I have not given it a real workout yet. 

The 2.9l V6 is also good but the extra power and smoothness and quietness of 
the 4.0l is worth it.

I have a black and silver one with black cap (the one with 2 chains hanging 
down from the back since Ford does not put safety chain holes in the step 
bumper only on the barcket attached to the frame) 

I chose the Ford as it has better interior and the split 40/60 reclining seat 
is the only one on the market from the domestic vendors. The US made trucks 
have 2" to 4" more space between the weel wells which I needed for my model 
railroad stuff.

David

    I agree for general use, 4wd isn't absolutely necessary.  It sure helps
    in snow though.  But for pulling a goodsized boat out of the water with 
    a small truck, I would definitely recommend it.  Sure, lots of folks do 
    manage to get by without it, but some folks get stuck. 
    
    Just a couple of weeks ago I pulled a big ski boat out of the Merrimack
    for a couple of guys in a brand new Chevy 1500 that appeard to have
    every possible option except 4wd.
    
    Also, my neighbor recently traded in his 2wd 4cyl Ford Ranger because
    he was having a tough time pulling his boat (70's 16' 125hp i/o
    runabout).  He was looking at small 2wd trucks with 6cyl.  I tried to
    convince him to get 4wd but he thought he could get away without it. 
    He wound up getting a 2wd 6cyl Chevy S10 with extracab and 14" tires.  
    
    He now has a real rough time pulling his boat out of the water.  Most
    of the time he has to have 3-4 guys bouncing on his bumper.  A  couple
    of times he has had to have other (real 8^) trucks pull him out.  I had
    to use my truck to back his boat up a small hill when he stored it.  
    If he had larger tires with more agressive tread he'd proabbly be
    better off.  And a lower gear ratio would definitely help.  But the
    way it is now he's afraid to go to a lauch alone.
    
    donmac
    
    ps: as an aside, i mentioned in an earlier note that i was towing close
    to 2000lbs now, i'm actually probably alot closer to 1500...

    One -- I agree that if your towing is pretty simple -- ie, no muddy
    or wet ramps -- the 2wd is ideal. 
    My first tow vehicle was a VW Quantum - it was FWD and had a 5 cyl -
    yup 5 plugs -- Audi engine. 
    Got real scared at a couple of ramps. One, where you had to first
    back down a long paved hill before you got to the ramp, scared the
    daylights out of me. I kept thinking what would happen if I needed 
    to go forward and straighten it out? (like jackknifed?) Those were
    the reasons I upgraded to a 4x4 nissan.
    I am still thinking. Im now into whether I go with a v6 in a new king
    cab with cap, or the pretty version of the pathfinder(or)gmc product.
    

     Go with the Pathfinder. It will ride better than a truck, which is
    critical to me when I'm hung over after you keep me out at bum bars all
    night. Also, it might be better for those long trips to Pulaski. Plus,
    it ain't my money...
    
    Considerately,
    
    The Skoal Bandit (Who wants to know if it'll work at Deering ...).