Conference wahoo::fishing

>    What are the Massachusetts regulations on ski doos [or whatever
>    these personal watercraft are called] ? What kind of licenses
>    and safety/courtesy tests are required?
>    
>    I think they are a menace. At Chauncey Lake in Westboro recently:
>    

	I read in the Westfield (MA) daily news just the other day about
the Fish and Game (or may be Registry Of Motor Vehicals) patrolling
Congomond(sp) lake, a 'common fluid' between MA and Ct (Southwick MA.).

	The lake has a very high usage by recreational boaters and averages
one boating accident per week. The artical stated that a 'Jet-Ski'er was
'pulled over' and written up for ..................

		No Operators Certificate	(Operator age - 15 [I belive])

			and

		No Fire Extinguisher

	Smells like the're viewed as a legal, motorized, water-craft!

	Any Jet-Ski owners out there who care to shead some light on this
one?



	Last August in Sodus Pt. New York (Lake Ontario), on a day that we
were 'blown off' the lake by 6' - 8' swells. I watched in horror as a
Jet-Ski came into the same area (by the break-water) where more than a dozen
bathers were body surfing (good surf for a lake) and began to ASSault the
waves with a total disregard for the people around him! There were kids out
there swimming with mom and dad and this bASS-hole is climbing out of 4'
6' troughs right into their midst! (Quick - get me my GUN!)

				Joe Whittemore - From where the Westfield
						      Meets the Westfield
							 By the Westfield
							     In Huntington (MA)

       Mass. is working as we type to come up with regulations for these
    things. I've seen a few of them and I think one of the reg's. for
    ownership is brain-death.
                                            Denny

    Every body of water in New England (and every where else, I guess)
    is having the same experience as yourself. Mass will probably have
    to do what N.H. has already started. The state has restricted the
    use of jet ski's on bodys of water less than 500 acres?? or some
    where around there. And the towns bordering these waters that the
    state allows them on are holding town meetings and placing a local
    restriction on their use. I heard that one body of water was
    restricting the use of these jet ski's from May through October.
    Maybe they'll freeze in place and next spring all they have to do
    is jump on, start it up, wait for the ice to break through and ride
    for one month. Thet way they'll have all summer to get ready for
    the next freeze. Har-Har!!!!
    
    
    John
    

    It's too bad. Of course it's not the machines, but the operators
    that are to blame. The problem is that jet-skis have the greatest 
    appeal to people who suffer from "raging-hormone syndrome" (my term).
    The same people who operate any other vehicle with utter disregard
    for anyone (even themselves, in some cases). Mostly (almost
    exclusively, who's kidding whom?) young-buck males with something 
    to prove and an excess of hormonal aggression to burn off, and in 
    their haste are utterly oblivious to the idea of self-restraint.
    
    I wish I had one..! Of course *I'd* use it responsibly!!
    
    Ed

    

    	I strongly agree with Ed in .4. This is not directed at anyone
    in particular here so I hope nobody takes offense but I hate this
    "Those damn <insert item here> are so dangerous something must be
    done" type of statement/mentality. This tends to produce those "We
    have to protect the general public against themselves" types of
    laws which wind up taking another bite out of our personal freedoms.
    
    	A jet-ski can be as enjoyable and safe (or dangerous) as any other 
    recreational vehicle. Let's call this for what it really is. It's
    really an operator problem, not a jet-ski problem.
    
    	The reason I hate the above statement so much is that being
    someone who hunts as well as fishes, I've seen the same arguement
    applied to guns. Unfortunately (for responsible jet-skiers) there 
    is no large lobby to support them and legislation seems to be
    following the emotional plea of the general boating public to impose 
    specific and severe restrictions on them.
    
    	If someone were to operate a boat in the manner that some have
    described jet-skier's doing, there are sufficient laws on the books
    now to punish them. So why is a jet-ski any different ? By applying
    and **** ENFORCING **** the very same laws that other watercraft must 
    adhere to, you solve the problem without creating more bureaucracy.
    
    	RAYJ_who'll_step_down_from_his_soapbox_now
    
    BTW - A large triple treble hooked lure flying past a half naked
    jet-skier would most likely convey to them the thought that they are 
    operating closer than the fisherperson felt was a safe margin. If
    they still didn't get the idea, set the drag appropriately and ......
    
    ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZ ;-)
    	

    Realistically. Of course, it's the operator. One can drive a mufflerless
    Harley hog around a quiet residential neighborhood with some degree
    of responsibility I suppose. Or, buzz the same neighborhood at 
    100 feet in a jet aircraft. I would ban neither device. However,
    there is no real enforcement on the lakes I use and, after a talk
    with some of our fisheries people [the same ones who put the signs
    up at boat ramps banning these vehicles but do not enforce laws] it's
    hard to be encouraging. Sorry to say, I would ban automatic weapons,
    too. As for the use of a good lure: tempting. Just as piano wire
    was to some ranchers who didn't like snowmobilers near where I
    lived in Wyoming... Sometimes the introduction of a new vehicle
    IS the problem. We don't have a constitutional right to all things
    that move, transport, are personal or even fun.
    
    Anyhow [speech almost over], what do we do when we see someone
    knocked unconsious in the water, or kids being buzzed, or the
    peaceful lake is blasted by a buzz saw twice the decibal level of
    a 75 horse outboard?
    
     

CONCORD (AP) - The state Safety Department has issued the first total bans
under the jet ski petition process set up by the Legislature last session.

Safety Commissioner Richard Flynn ordered jet skis prohibited on Deering
Lake in Deering and Upper Kimball Pond in Chatham after residents there
petitioned for the ban under the program. The bans can't take effect before
Oct. 1.

Residents from 30 different lakes have petitioned for restrictions on the
use of jet skis.

Jet skis already are banned from lakes with a surface avenue of less than
75 acres, and they cannot be ridden within 300 feet of shore or in coves.

Residents petitioning for restrictions or bans of the jet skis have said
they threaten swimmers' safety and the environment.

    re:6

    > We don't have a constitutional right.........
    
    	What ever happened to the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit
    of happiness. I would say operating a recreational vehicle "within
    the limits of reasonable laws" falls under the last category. Is
    this stretching things ? Maybe, but if I were to operate a jet-ski
    within the limits of the existing water craft laws, it certainly
    doesn't interfere with your rights to the pursuit of happiness.
    Does a ban do the same thing for the responsible jet-skier ? 
    
    	Another point is since all waters are considered public, this
    affects water craft type recreational vehicles more so than
    snowmobiles, 2/3/4-wheelers, etc., as they can be operated on private land.
    
    > what do we do when we see someone knocked unconsious in the water,
    > or kids being buzzed, or the peaceful lake is blasted by a buzz
    > saw twice the decibal level of a 75 horse outboard ?
    
     	What would you do if you saw the operator of a boat doing the
    same thing ? I would say the local police would be a good place
    to start (after pulling out and attending to any unconscious people
    first of course ;-). If they couldn't do anything I'm reasonably sure they
    could point you to the appropriate authority that could. BTW - There
    are noise level ratings water craft must adhere to by law. There
    are most certainly laws against operating water craft in an unsafe 
    manner (i.e. to close to swimmers, other boats, etc.).
    
    	I really have a difficult time with creating more laws when the 
    problem is that the current laws simply are not being enforced.
    It's so much easier to place the blame on an inanimate object and
    ban it than it is to do the right thing.

    re:7 
    
    	Bob, please don't take offense at this. I'm not trying to shoot the
    messenger, just make a point.

    > Residents petitioning for restrictions or bans of the jet skis have 
    > said they threaten swimmers' safety and the environment.
    	   ----
    
    	If this isn't a classic "We must work to ban those evil implements
    from hell" type of mentality I'll eat my shorts. The "they" I
    underlined as used in the sentence above refers to an inanimate 
    object which in and of itself does not threaten swimmers safety or the 
    environment any more than a boat does.
    
	All-in-all, I have not heard a single VALID argument for creating
    more laws to restrict/ban jet-skis any more than any other water craft.
    If there are any I'd be interested in hearing them.

	It's a sorry state of affairs whenever rights/privileges are taken 
    away from everyone because of the actions of a few.
    
    	RAYJ
    
    BTW - Contrary to what this must look like, I am not a jet-ski owner
    and don't plan to be in the near future (unless I win megabucks ;-)
    

    re:.8
       Ray, You don't think the size of the lake/pond is a valid argument?
                                              Denny

    I was fishing a local lake until after dark last night.  When I
    approached the ramp there was jet-ski hanging around the launch.
    When I returned with my truck to take-out (after maneuvering around 
    his car parked practically on the ramp where it's "no-parking") I couldn't 
    believe he was putting-in.  It was pretty much totally dark, no lights
    on the jet-ski, and a couple other boats still out on the lake - and
    this guy is just blasting off into the darkness.
    
    I agree with Ray that it's the individuals who are using them unsafely
    that is the problem - and not the machine itself.  
    
    However, I think I can honestly say that I have never come across a
    jet-skier that was following the boating rules and regs that the rest
    of us try and adhere to.
    
    donmac   

       I agree with donmac 100%. Haven't seen a 'sane' one yet either.
                                                  Denny

 There are a number of jet-ski riders that are simply jerks. They have made it
impossible to fish places like Robinson Pond in Hudson. They buzz around people
in canoes, they ride too closely to stationary boats and swimmers, and show
a shocking disregard for anyone but themselves. For this reason I think it is
reasonable and proper to restrict the use of jet-skis to places with sufficient
acreage to allow for coexistance with other water users. On small ponds, this
coexistance is simply not possible.

 The other thing that has to happen is for the drivers of these personal
water conveyances to be cited for reckless operation when appropriate and
fined. Additionally, one must be 16 years old or under the direct supervision
of an adult to operate. Any infractions or destruction caused by underage 
drivers would render the adult in charge liable.

 With these measures, jet-skis, swimmers, fishermen, and pleasure boat
operators could all utilize public waterways in the most peaceful and efficient
manner.

 The Doctah

    Hey Ray, you just don't want to sit in that chair for two weeks
    nodding off while the pros/anti's slug it out on the House floor,
    admit it!! Esp. when other more important issues could be discussed
    and voted on.
    
    BTW, we (doveaholics anonymous) may be looking for someone to sponsor
    a Bill for next year. What do you think????
    
    
    John.

    Re .8	WELL SAID!	To be honest about waterway problems
    I would have to say that I have been bothered more by water skiers
    than Jetski's. It seems thay get a kick out of buzzing close to
    fishermen working a bank etc.. The way I look at it if they are
    within casting distance their too close. 
    
    Rich

    Sounds like there's a serious problem with the enforcment
    of current waterway laws,not just by jet-ski users.There
    are idiots in all kinds of craft out there going crazy
    and getting away with it.Until the current laws are properly
    enforced,adding new laws is a waste of time.

    I think that instead of fines, confiscation of the offender's craft
    would be more effective. Fit the period of confiscation to the offense,
    including permanent confiscation with the craft auctioned off for
    the most serious offenses. Criminal penalties could be imposed for
    additional criminal acts commited as well, but I think that the
    threat or experience of confiscation would have them think twice.
    After a few real confiscations, they'd all tone it down a bit.
    
    As far as an acreage limit, that's another matter...
    
    Ed
    

    I was up at Sebago lake 2 yrs ago waterskiing behind a boat my
    father-in-law rented. There was a jetskiier buzzing around the cove we
    were skiing in  and was following us around trying to use our wake to
    get some air on his jet ski. This bothered me since I was skiing and if
    I wiped out I didn't want to be run over w/ the jetski. Well I did wipe
    out but fortunaltely enough I got one ski off and held it up so the
    jetskier could see me. So he turned away and sped off towards the boat.
    He went full throttle towards the nice big wake the boat was putting
    out. He crossed about 20' behind the boat. Yup, you guessed it. He was
    airborn all right except w/out the jetski. He caught the towrope and
    that stopped the jet ski on a dime and sent the rider ass over
    tea-kettle flying for about 20' or so. I thought he was dead for sure.
    He managed to remain conscience and got back on his jetski and slowing
    putter out of sight. Never saw him again after that. We did have to pay
    $10 for the ski rope but it was well worth it to see that guy go flying
    and it probably damaged the jetski some since he drove sooo slowly out
    of the cove. he seemed to be having a bit of trouble w/ the steering
    mechanism. Just thought some of you might get some enjoyment out of
    this little episode. 
    /Jay

HI 
LET ME START BY SAYING I AM A JETSKIER.
    ALL MY LIFE "32 YEARS" I LIVE ON THE WATER DURING THE SUMMER.
    JETSKIS HAVE BEEN FOR SALE FOR 15 YEARS. BUT HAVE BECOME VERY
    POPULAR IN THE 3 OR 4 YEARS. I HAVE OWEND ONE FOR 4 YEARS.
    SOME OF YOU HAVE A BAD ATTUDE "QUICK - GET ME MY GUN"?
    " FLY A LARGE TRIPLE TREBLE HOOK " POINT MADE.
    I HAVE SEEN MOTER BOAT OPERATORS DO EVERY THING ALL YOU
    TALK ABOUT. TRUE??
    NOT TO MENTION DRINKING.
    IT IS TRUE THERE IS A FUEW BAD APPLES OUT THERE,AND IF YOU SEE 
    ONE YOU SHOULD TRY TO TALK TO THEM. THE SAME LAWS APPLEY TO 
    EVERYONE. BOATS + JETSKIS. MOST WILL LISTEN , I LOVE TO JETSKI
    AND I TRY TO RESPECT ALL BOATERS RIGHTS. BUT IT IS TOUGH WHEN
    YOU GET NO RESPECT FROM A PERSON IN A BOAT OR A PERSON ON THE 
    SHORE. JUST REMBER WHEN JETSKI ARE GONE THEY WILL WANT TO BAN
    SOMTHING ELSE. MABEY MOTER BOATS? OR SOMTHING YOU LOVE TO DO.
    LETS TRY TO LIVE TOGETHER PLEASE.
    
    THANKS CHRIS
    
    
        
    
    

  Until yesterday we'd had little trouble on the lake where spend most summer
weekends.  Yesterday the jet-skis seemed to come out of the woodwork. I believe
the machines themselves contribute to the problem.  What is the lure of a
jet-ski vs a boat... MANUEVERABILITY.  I watched for hours as these machines
twisted and turned and jumped and dived and...  What makes these craft so
attractive to the "raging hormones out of control" crowd is their quick
movement.  Unfortunately as a boat operator I have come to expect the worst out
of other watercraft out there.  At least with boats (pulling skiers or
otherwise) there is some predictability due to the craft themselves.  They can
only turn so fast without flipping over.  Jet skis on the other hand can (and
do) turn and stop on a dime.  This manueverability places any predictability on
the operator.

  It seems to me that the jet-ski operators who wish to 'cowboy' around should
have either a time slot or portion of the lake set aside for them to do the
stunts when or where they are neither endangering other boat traffic nor are
endangered themselves by other boat traffic.  If they are willing to run in more
or less straight lines, more or less follow the rules of the road, and
otherwise be a 'small boat' out there then they should be able to do so.  If
they insist on exploiting the unique features of the jet-ski, then they should
be segregated the rest of the boating population...

Al

 CHRIS- don't type all in caps. It is an eye strain and is considered rude.

 I'm glad you like to jet-ski. I think that you can agree that some small
bodies of water are unable to support both jet-skis and canoes/sail boats etc. 
I don't think that jet-skis should be totally banned, but they should be
restricted to areas where they are not a menace and where they can play safely.

 The Doctah

    I am glad that Chris has made his feelings known as a responsible
    jetskier. This whole issue is beginning to remind me of my early
    years riding a motorcycle. Back then, anybody on a motorcycle ran
    the risk of being labelled in a very unflattering way, and possibly
    being run off the road by a nasty motorist. Guilt by association,
    I guess. Nowadays all sorts of people ride motorcycles - I even
    see (and I never thought I would) more and more women riding large
    road bikes. I even passed one matronly lady on a BMW last night.
    
    Anyhow, I think that responsible jetskiers should be allowed as
    much access to the waterways as any powerboaters, but extreme penalties
    should be levied against those who misuse the machines, due to thier
    great potential for injury to others.
    
    Ed
    

    I hate to say this, but this sounds like a gun control argument
    to outlaw jet skis.  
    
    In my opinion, the rider should be dealt with; not the tool.
    All to often we do the wrong thing.  The jet ski isn't the
    problem!  The rider is!
    
    Fishing boats hate jet skis, right?
    
    Sail boats hate Bass boats, right.
    
    So right now while we're sitting here condeming jet skis, they're
    condeming those ^&%^&%&^%^&*^*&^ fishing boats in the sailing file...
    ..........you know, those
    obnoxious 17 foot metallic flake bass boats with the 200 hp Black
    Max!  The ones that cut off the sailboats and don't obey the rules
    of the road.  "Why they almost flipped our sailboat on their way
    out to their fishing hole......muffy has bass boat trauma now!"
    
    I am relatively positive that at least one person in this conference
    did something this weekend that was less than safe with his or her
    boat.
    
    Sorry guys.  My opinon, fwiw, is that jet skis ought to be legal
    and should have the same access to water as we do.  They should be able
    to use this access at the same times.  We must count on them to use
    safe boating practices with regard to other craft.  
    
    What this may mean is that operators should be attending boating school
    and be licensed.  Then they would understand the rules of the road and
    be committed to follow them  under penalty of fine or whatever.
    
    Besides, it looks like another opportunity for Taxachusetts.
    
    

re .22	Nothing personal, but is it my imagination or are all those
    idiots on the nations highways licensed? I'm sure if you totaled
    the amount of idiots on the road that you encountered during a 8
    hour period, then totaled the amount of idiots you ran across during
    an 8 hour period on the water you would find there are more idiots
    on the road than the water. 
    
    I don't need another fee from this state! Do you? 
    
    Rich

    > Nothing personal, but is it my imagination or are all those
    >    idiots on the nations highways licensed? 
    
    
    Are we talking about cars?  I think they have licenses.  I do.
    
    The way I see it, either responsibility of jet ski drivers is
    enforced or they will be banned.  Since I don't have a jet ski,
    it doesn't really mater to me.  I just hate to see people's fun
    ruined unless it's destructive.
    
    
    

    
>    What this may mean is that operators should be attending boating school
>    and be licensed.  Then they would understand the rules of the road and
>    be committed to follow them  under penalty of fine or whatever.
	    
>    Besides, it looks like another opportunity for Taxachusetts.

    
    
>    Are we talking about cars?  I think they have licenses.  I do.
    
	The point I am trying to make is licenses probably won't solve
all the problems of the waterways. I really hate to dig deeper into my pocket
for one more fee. I know if you renew you boat registration in Worcester they
give you a booklet on the rules of the waterways, at least they have given me 
one every time. Maybe they should send them out to people that renew through
the mail. 

>    The way I see it, either responsibility of jet ski drivers is
>    enforced or they will be banned.  Since I don't have a jet ski,
>    it doesn't really mater to me.  I just hate to see people's fun
>    ruined unless it's destructive.
 
   	Hey I couldn't agree more! The problem hear is lack of enforcement.
The byproduct of enforcement is conformance, but we all know its easier to
ban an object than enforce current laws, you know just like firearms.

Rich 
    
    

    Hey. I just thought of the perfect solution to all the "I hate those
    *INSERT YOUR FAVORITE THING HERE* problems!
    
    Lets make a Law that requires every Bassboat,Skiboat,Sailboat,Runabout,
    Seadoo's ect.... to carry an Assualt Weapon on board! How many people
    would want to Piss off another person then!
    
    Just like in that town in Fla. that make gun owership manditory
    last year!
    
    Personally I'll opt for tradition and mount a 10 pounder swivel
    cannon on the bow.  "Take that you scurvy dog!"
    
    

    re: .27
    
    Hey Walt...Then I can use a shoulder launched missle from the beach
    
    			RIGHT????
    
    Bagel

    May I submit that comparing jetski's to guns is suspect on at least
    two points: first, it is an example of the domino theory -- if "A"
    falls, then "B" and "C" will also fall.  (This may be true, but
    it is far from certain.  If jetski's are banned, I'd say that
    motorcycle owner should worry more than gun owners...)
    
    Second, there are restrictions on guns today.  Ownership of fully
    automatic weapons has been restricted since the 1930's, there are
    "restrictions" around civilian ownership of bazookas and morters,
    etc.
    
    Personally, I just don't buy the argument that banning jetski's
    will lead to anything else.  A good starting point might be to restrict
    jetski's from operation on public waters <insert semi-smiley face
    here>.  Then we can just go back to cursing skiers!

    Russ,
    
    You've drawn some interesting conclusions here.  
    
    I never said that banning jet skis would have any effect on gun
    legislation whatsoever.
    
    What I said was that the attitude of banning jet skis because there are
    a few kooks out there is similar to gun control logic.  What I mean,
    and I think I said is, that rather than ban the tool the kook uses to
    manifest his/her tendencies we should try to deal with the individual.
    It seems that everytime someone uses any gizmo to offend someone else
    we immediately try to ban the gizmo.  Let's focus our attention to the
    offender and let those people who respect other's feelings enjoy
    themselves.  In other words, let's respect their feelings as well.
    
    I'd be willing to bet that each of us has seen at least one person with
    a jet ski that has demonstrated respect.  Can we give this guy a break?
    
    /brett
    
    p.s.  I'm not really a moral guy, but as an ex-surfer, I hate being
          descriminated against because of the few......

    re.30
         Bingo!!!  My feelings exactly, when are we going to start
    making people responsible for there actions rather then blame the 
    jetski, gun, boat, waterski, motercycle etc. etc.       
    
    Jeff (who has seen alot of obnoxious drivers but is still not ready
          to ban cars)                                           
    

    Jeff Lange here....
    
    My opinion/possible solution on disrespectful water sporters in general 
    would be a more beefed up patrol of the waters...Yeah,yeah I know...pay
    cutbacks put a damper on this...but it still needs to be done.
    
    I fish, I love to fish...I don't like being "buzzed" by power boats
    or jet skis...I don't think many do enjoy it. Waterways are supposed
    to be for everyone. Re: a few...The operator of the watercraft should
    be punished if need be...ejected from the lake if he endangers other
    watercraft....
    
    Last sunday Sully, and I were fishing the Agawam river in Wareham
    Ma. There is a spot on this river that bottlenecks thru some pilons
    that once used to be a bridge I guess...anyway it has just
    enough...JUST ENOUGH room for two boats to pass thru...one at a
    time would be much safer cause I'm talking "maybe" six inches to
    spare with two...any way I'm fishing this spot, my boat was
    stopped...and here comes a Bass Tracker...on plane...pulling a guy
    on a knee-board....WOOOOOOSH...right thru this 15? foot section
    of water....If it wasn't for my reversing the trolling motor in
    time, this guy would have run right over us....
    
    So Sully try's to get thru with his boat....and WOOOOSH...the guy
    does it to him in the exact same spot...What an Arse! He was obviously
    a fisherman...with trolling motor, depth finder etc.etc.etc. on
    his boat. I could not believe a fellow fisherman would have such
    disrespect for another...but he did, and I got his number. i figure
    if he fishes federation, it would most likely be the East division,
    which our chapter does....and if I ever see him at a tourney sure
    a s--- he won't be fishing it...
    
    So it's the individual.....Fifty lashes with a 5/8 oz jig-pig would
    be sufficiant

    How about a nice floating 2-by-4 between the pylons?
    

    It wasn't the knee-boarder that got me t'd...it was the retarded
    driver of the Tracker....earlier that day we saw him flying under
    the route 25 bridges (6 feet of water) with the pedestal seats up,with
    people sitting in them....
    
    Does anyone know an Environmental Police Officer? I tried the Registry
    of Motor Vehicles...but I couldn't get his name out of them...

    Having looked over the debate I started here maybe it's fair to
    say the following:
    
    	o  there is nary a good word about these devices
    
    	o  the best that can be said is that we don't need more
           regulation [eg. jet skis as analog to gun or there is
           too much regulation/taxation already]
    
    	o  large numbers of people [eg. residents around many NH lakes,
           growing number in Massachusetts], many of whom are probably
           pretty conservative or individualistic [I'll bet the majority
           of cabin owners on Lake Wentworth or Rust Pond in NH are
           registered Republicans] but consider these devices a particular
           threat, menace, etc. that transcends the right of owners
           to use them at all times, in all places.
    
    	o  using a jet ski on many ponds is like 'shouting fire in a
           crowded theatre'. In other words some constitutional rights
           may be superceded by others. 
    
        o  the onus there is not only on the user and the state
           [licensing, etc.] but on people who make machinery to
           design products that respect the environment.
    
    

>    	o  there is nary a good word about these devices
>

	Except that they are fun. 
   
>    	o  the best that can be said is that we don't need more
>           regulation [eg. jet skis as analog to gun or there is
>           too much regulation/taxation already]
 
	agree
   
>    	o  large numbers of people [eg. residents around many NH lakes,
>           growing number in Massachusetts], many of whom are probably
>           pretty conservative or individualistic [I'll bet the majority
>           of cabin owners on Lake Wentworth or Rust Pond in NH are
>           registered Republicans] but consider these devices a particular
>           threat, menace, etc. that transcends the right of owners
>           to use them at all times, in all places.

	your blaming the problem on the machines.  These machines pose
no threat or menace to these people.  Owners who abuse them and to not follow 
the rules of the waterways are the ones posing a threat.
    
>    	o  using a jet ski on many ponds is like 'shouting fire in a
>           crowded theatre'. In other words some constitutional rights
>           may be superceded by others. 

	What?  If I go out and use a Jet-Ski properly and within the laws 
and regulations already in place who's constitutional rights do I supercede?
    
>        o  the onus there is not only on the user and the state
>           [licensing, etc.] but on people who make machinery to
>           design products that respect the environment.
    
 
	And how are Jet-ski's different in regards to the enviroment then
the any other motor boat on the waters?


	The solution to this problem has been stated many times in the previous
replies, better enforcment of the laws/regulations already in place.

Mike   

    
     Hi All,                                        
    
        i don't want to get involved in this conversation, but i saw
        this bumper sticker on a car in Dedham Saturday and it read:
    
        

                           SAVE A WHALE 
    
                         HARPOON A JET SKI
    
                                                   
                                                       8^(   ;^o 
    
                                                    8^) 8^) 8^) 8^)
                                                        dr. dick
    
    

    Now theres a sport that will appeal to Jet Ski owners. The reason for
    having one is for that thrill of adredalin, Right? Just like racing
    motorcycles in the dirt (I've done that) or Sking down a mountain at
    light speed (Yah!) or many other"On the edge sports" 
    
    Lets take some Jet Skis offshore to the Tuna Grounds and set them up
    with Harpoons! Tie a couple of hundred feet of line off to the bow,
    and you would have a real Nantucket Slighride! Kinda like ropeing a
    steer on a horse, but much wilder & wetter!
    
    Besides what a payoff!!!!
    
    Advantages are having speed & mobility to get right up on the TUNA! and
    being close to your target dosn't hurt eather!
    
    Harpoon Roundup. For the Adventureous only!

    re: 'shouting fire' etc.
    
    Shouting fire in a crowded theatre is not in effect when the user
    is in a place where other people's rights are not being abridged
    [eg in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean]. However, where there
    is overwhelming evidence of nuisance, noise, etc. on relatively
    small ponds and lakes it becomes another matter. Obviously, if
    everyone was considerate, the machines were quiet, etc. people
    like me would not be on a toot around this. Law enforcement would
    be great, but it is a practical impossibility, what with hundreds
    of small ponds, etc. in New England.
    
    By the way, I am not a lawyer and wouldn't claim 'shouting fire',
    which is usually used with free space cases, is concretely 
    applicable here. 
    
    Again, when a machine brings the absolute worst out of people
    [in particular environments] the machine, as well as the people, may need 
    to be regulated. This does not mean it should be banned. Effective 
    mufflers, speed governors, etc. may be alternatives. And, if people
    become more considerate in their use as time goes on, regulations
    can be changed accordingly.
    
     

    There is a nice front page article in this month's Montachusett
    Review concerning watersports.  It gives an 800 number for
    reporting violations.  It's 800-632-8075.  It states there 
    are new regulations prohibiting jet skis from jumping wakes
    of another boat  and cannot exceed headway speed ( 6-8 mph )
    within 150' of shore, a swimmer, or a waterskier.  Penalties
    range from $50 - $500. 
    I found the article quite informative and will send a copy to
    anyone who sends me mail with his name and mailstop.
    
    Gone fishin