Conference wahoo::fishing

I understand the paradox of the situation but the laws on this are very clear.
A short is a short ... dead or alive.  If F&G allowed folks to keep "dead" 
shorts because it would be wasteful to throw them back, guess how often 
shorts would just happen to be "dead"!

PLay it safe and throw them back...

-HSJ-

     I would toss a dead one back.Undersize is undersize.After
    reading about the way Maine F&G treats law abiding fishermen,
    (read a couple of notes back)I wouldnt want to get caught
    with undersize fish hidden away.
    
                                      Mike

    	I would throw the fish back. One reason is that it's against
    the law, and two, the fine is enough of a deterent as I can think
    of much better ways to spend $45 (or more).
    
    	Another reason is that I can think of at least a half dozen
    fish I'd rather eat than landlocked salmon, as in bass, perch, smelt,
    cod, cusk, wolf fish, etc., etc... I have cooked a lot of fish a
    lot of different ways and can think of no fish that is more over
    rated as being a good eating fish than a landlocked salmon.

    	RAYJ

    
     I throw'em all back......any fish is good eatin' for the ospreys....
    and I enjoy watching those dive-bombers, especially young ones,
    splash around when the action isn't hot.
    
                                               Tight_Lines
                                               Spring Creek Steve
    

    Here on Lake Ontario, we have a "Slot Limit" for Lake Trout, What
    that means is you are not allowed to keep Lakers between 25" and
    30" in length. This is supposed to be the most reproductive size
    fish. Try landing a 29" Laker and then having to release it because
    its "Too Big"!!! I personally don't mind because I get a lot of
    other fish (Salmon), but when I take a guest out and tell them they
    have to dump it back in----not too popular!!
    
    I also would not keep undersize fish, but then I have never caught
    an undersize trout or salmon on Ontario (the limit is 9")!!!
    
    Don

    	All those dead under-sizers make good fodder for the Northerns,
    too.  (Not to mention Muskies, bass, etc.)  If nothing else, they
    make the only thing that they are good for in the first place,
    fertilizer.  LLs and trout are too greasy for my taste buds.

    Thanks for the replies.  I guess I'll always put back even the dead
    shorts.  The reply about the game wardens from a few notes  back
    was the one that did it.  Right now I know the warden in my area
    and he knows me as a law-abider.  I don't ever want him to think
    otherwise.  Thanks guys.
    

    The question I have is how does the fish get into that condition
    in the first place???  Its because of being unable to remove the
    hook effectively without hurting the fish.  There is a very simple
    way to avoid the problem of killing undersized fish.  Its by snipping
    the barb of the hook which allows for an easy and safe hook removal.
    To lose your hook is worth preserving the life of a fish should
    there be a difficult situation.  A small investment in a long shaft
    pair of snippers will make the fish, you and the law happy.
    

    Yeah, I've seen ham-fisted fisherman wrestle with trying to extract
    a treble hook from a small fish for a few seconds, then yank it
    out, tearing the fish's jaw all apart, throw the fish back in, and
    say "Aw, he'll be alright..."
    

I've heard that it is best to just cut your line/leader short and leave the 
hook there. That is what I usually do. I understand the hook will be gone
within 2 to 3 days due to the fishs body chemistry.

Any truth to this?

John I.
    

    >I've heard that it is best to just cut your line/leader short 
    >and leave the hook there. 
    
    I agree with you, John, provided the fish is not bleeding heavily
    from the gills or internally.  If there is a lot of blood from
    the swallowed bait, you might as well keep the fish - it won't
    survive.  The heart, spleen, and liver in the higher fishes -
    bass and their panfish cousins - are in the meaty part of the
    fish in the area under the pectoral (forward-side) fins.  If
    the hook has turned and damaged these organs, the fish has had it.
    
    >I understand the hook will be gone within 2 to 3 days due to the 
    >fishs body chemistry.
    
    That's a popular misconception.  A fish's digestive juices aren't
    radically different from our own, and the hooks we use are made 
    of metals designed to resist corrosion from either acidic or
    alkaline sources.  But the value of simply leaving the hook there
    is that it may not interfere with digestion at all.  Fish have a
    constriction below the throat called the pharynx.  If the hook 
    does not restrict the passage of baitfish through the pharynx into
    the stomach, then (probably) little harm is done.  The pharynx
    simply closes about the hook shaft after the food has passed in to
    the stomach.  If the pharynx is damaged while the hook is removed,
    then water will flow in and out of the stomach, diluting the
    digestive juices and essentially starve the fish.
    
    Far more dangerous to the fish in catch-and-release fishing is the 
    possibility of lactic acidosis - basically acid-filled blood which
    comes from the life-and death struggle the fish puts up to avoid
    being landed.  The fish has lost the efficiency that it normally
    has to pull oxygen from the water due to the excess acid built up
    from the muscles during the fight.  If the fish comes up belly up
    and shows little fight alongside the boat, have him for dinner.
    He's literally fought himself to death.
    
    If the fish is still doing well, the fisherman has to hold it up
    by the lip for all to see and  get pictures for everybody. The
    little guy gets pretty short on air.  This can also increase the
    acidosis problem.  The key is to get it back to the water quickly,
    but hold it gently if it lets you while it gets its second wind.
    Returning it to highly oxygenated water is always best if you have
    the option- a riffle, for example, is better than a warm, still
    pool.
    
    Dave

    

     Dave, that's the best, most succinct explanation of two different
    topics that I have seen yet in this conference ! Great job (and
    I hope the Ultra Light fanatics paid attention to the part about
    fighting a fish to the point of shock...)!
    
    --The Skoal Bandit (Who ain't fought enough lately...)

    >              -< Attaboy, Dave! >-
    
    Gosh, thanks (blush, rub toe in dirt).
    
    ;-)  Dave

    Just one nit,
    
    If the fish comes to the baot and he/she looks in bad shape meaning not
    putting up to much of a fight that doesn't mean that it's dinner time
    for you.  
    
    Once the fish is unhooked every effect should be made to revive the
    fish, excluding mouth to mouth!! This should be done by either
    (depending on size of fish) holding its tail and gently moving the fish
    back and forth to push water through it's gills or gently hold him
    underneath and do the same as above.  When the fish is revived you'll
    know because he'll swim away.
    
    					Bart Lasky 
    

    Recently I caught a real feisty smallmouth fishing off a dock at
    night. He hooked himself pretty good, so it took me a while to
    get him loose (of course he kept squirming for a while after I caught
    him). Anyhow, the first time I lifted him up to get a goo dlook
    at him and try to measure him, he flipped loose and dropped on the
    dock. I picked him up again and he did the same thing - it made
    me feel bad to see him getting beat up like that, so I didn't
    try a third time - I just laid him down on the dock and measured
    him against the boards (16�"), then I lowered him gently into the
    water. He just sort of floated... so I got hold of him again, opened
    his mouth, and pulled him through the water a few times. He revived 
    enough to slowly swim off, but I was afraid he might have had internal
    injuries. He was probably dazed - I hope so. I didn't see any dead
    bass floating around later, so I am assuming he recovered.
    
    I bet he won't snap at a spinner bait again, though!
    
    Ed
    

    He'll probably go after a spinner in a few hours, Ed.  Some fish don't
    even suspend after being released (which is the usual behavior) - they
    move away and continue to feed as though nothing happened.  I'm sure
    some of the fishermen in here have a story about the Fish Who Wouldn't
    Go Away.  Some fish are in such highly competetive waters (e.g,
    northern bass who are in the middle of the food chain rather than
    at the top) that they become incredibly aggressive during feeding
    periods so they can hide longer when the bass-loving pike come out to 
    play.
    
    re: trying to revive a fought-out fish:
    
    I agree that it's worth a shot, but the notion of moving the fish
    back and forth to get water moving over the gills is another popular
    misconception.  Just holding the fish gently in the water is enough;
    the gills don't need the motion.  Suspended fish breathe as well as
    moving ones.
    
    Dave

>    I agree that it's worth a shot, but the notion of moving the fish
>    back and forth to get water moving over the gills is another popular
>    misconception.  Just holding the fish gently in the water is enough;
>    the gills don't need the motion.  Suspended fish breathe as well as
>    moving ones.

 Well, I beg to differ. There is no question that suspended fish can continue
to breathe. However, when attempting to revive a fish, moving it gently 
through the water helps because it causes more water to go through the gills
(and hence, more oxygen). The idea of moving the fish is to get it more
oxygen, which is what you have deprived it of while it was out of the water.
If you don't believe me, the next time you have a really exhausted fish, don't
move it in the water. It will probably have a much tougher time reviving (if
it can.) I suggest you only try this experiment on a fish that you plan on
eating. Then, try moving the fish a little bit. It really makes a difference,
or so the empirical evidence indicates.

 The Doctah

    Re last 2:
    
    It does seem to make sense that moving water over gills is more
    effective at providing oxygen to the fish than just holding it in
    the water, just like air needs to pass over our own lung tissue.
    Besides, if you watch a fish suspended in the water (like your fish
    tank) you do see the gills (ok, gill plates) moving slightly as
    the fish pumps water thru its system. I compare moving a tired fish
    thru water (with its mouth open) to us taking a deep breath when
    we're over-exerted.
    
    Just my common-sense-type observation...
    
    Ed
    

    Sorry, I still disagree, but my reasons get pretty involved.
    If you're really a glutton for punishment get a copy of Kyle's
    Biology_of_Fishes from the library.  It explains it pretty well,
    but it's usually only inflicted on unsuspecting biology students
    who think they want to make a living in fisheries and wildlife 
    management.
    
    Let me try and give a better justification for my point of view on this
    and then drop it.  In some sense this is a nit anyway, because a big
    fish fought to a stupor on ultra-light tackle is so close to death
    anyway that anything you to do try and revive it is probably better
    than nothing.  But, contrarily, an acidotic fish can swim away looking
    kinda OK and a few minutes later the shock may kick in.  It will often
    just swim lazily for the bottom and never recover.  The point is that
    the acidotic fish doesn't always have trouble respirating - the trouble
    is that the blood can't absorb the oxygen from the gills with enough
    efficiency to keep it alive more than half an hour. You can wet the
    gills all you want to, but the fish is still going to die.
    
    Ok, now about the moving back and forth bit -  The problem with moving
    the fish back and forth is that it doesn't wet the gill filiaments like
    you'd expect.  If the Doctah means leading it around by the nose, then
    you may be doing some good.  A little motion may help the fish out of a
    stupor (but it won't help the acidosis for reasons mentioned above).
    
    But moving it backward and forward can push the water in the wrong
    direction.  The fish normally  takes in water through the mouth and
    strains it over the gill filiaments through each of the gill chambers
    to the gill opening.  The gill filiaments and baffles separating the
    chambers are structures which work well only in one direction.  They're
    actually adapted to keep water from moving the opposite way, to keep
    stuff out of the gills which might strangle the fish.  (There's are
    strainer-like things called gill rakers in most fish on the mouth side
    to keep junk from coming in the front door.)
    
    The point to all this is that the fish only gets useful water when it
    moves forward and its mouth is slightly open.  The "back and forth"
    motion does not create an `artificial respiration' action that you
    might expect, because the water has to be sucked in by muscles you
    can't push like the human diaphram is pushed during artificial
    respiration - the structures are different.  Moving the fish
    backwards can actually suffocate the fish - try it sometime.
   
    Some biologists actually think the gills aren't relied on during
    recovery from stress.  The fish seems to store oxygen in the tissues of
    the air bladder, an organ which normally isn't used in respiration.
    Some lab tests with suffocation suggest that the fish actually draws on
    this as a reserve supply of cached oxygen for the blood.  It may be
    that the resting fish is using "pre-breathed" oxygen while the acid
    level comes down.
    
    Biologists (well, mostly the poor starving research assistants)
    regularly stun fish in labs to do different kinds of lab procedures on
    them. They're trained to just hold the fish quietly and let it rest as
    it comes to before releasing it.  That's the way I learned it and it's
    stuck with me since.
    
    Dave
    

 Yes, I did mean leading the fish around by the nose, as it were, when 
referring to reviving tired fish. Very large fish are best revived by 
having the boat move forward very slowly while you hold onto the bill
or other structure (preferably no the mouth in a very toothy critter :-).

 Usually I put the fish back in the water quickly enough where I can
just sort of toss them in. Every now and then I catch one on light line
that needs to be revived.

 RE: Dave

 It's ok. We can disagree. There isn't full agreement in the fisheries
community, so each can do what they feel is best for the fish. I personally
feel that it can't hurt to help them get more water over their gills,
so I move them when necessary. It does seem that they revive faster this
way. In any case, do whatever you think is best; anything that makes us
try harder to keep the fish alive is bound to have a net positive effect.

 The Doctah

	Just thinking about party boats for bluefish, all the wasted
	fish, and why catch and release isn't used more on these trips.
	A main problem is gaffing the fish to get it onto the boat.
	I wouldn't think a gaffed fish would have much of chance of
	surviving at all...  So what do you do ?  It's not easy to haul
	one of those fish up onto the crowded boat without a gaf.

	/Ken

    I saw a thing in last month's In-Fisherman about a stiff net
    cradle they're starting to use for big muskies which looks a lot
    like the kind of cradle used for moving dolphins in labs.  It
    consists of two long pieces of wood (2x4xfish-length, I guess) with
    a strong net between them.  The cradle is dropped flat along
    the hull into the water with lines attached to all four corners.
    The fish is worked to the side of the boat and the cradle is then
    drawn up around it.  I imagine something like that is workable for
    blues and tuna and the like.
    
    While at the dentist this morning I looked over a back issue of
    Field and Stream which had a spoof on angling terms in it.  
    `Angle' appears to be related to the latin word for `hook', from
    whence come our terms `angler' and `hooker'.  `Catch and
    release', according to this article, is the term for a pardon 
    program  for convicted poachers.  And a `bellyboat' is a party barge 
    for beer-drinking bluefishermen.
    
    Yuk yuk yuk ...
    
    Dave

There are several solutions, all of which have a negative effect on the
productivity of the boat.  

1)  Ask each person as they board how many fish they would like to take home.
    Once "n" fish are caught, stop gaffing.  This means using one of the below
    methods or going back to the dock.  The latter option stinks for those who
    paid to CATCH the fish (the bigger reason than eating, in my experience).

2)  Net.  Blues are tough to net and tough on nets.  Of course they don't have
    a solid hook in them and they are much more likely to thrash around making
    danger for passengers and making it harder to remove the hook.

3)  LONG leaders, long enough to grab and lift the fish in.  This has all the
    negatives of the net idea plus the tangle factor.

It is in the best interests of the party boat to use the gaff.  I don't think
there is a great solution, except that each person should know the value of
the fish and not massacre them just for the heck of it.  I personally have never
wasted a blue (or any other fish for that matter). There are always people who
will gladly eat them.

Tim

	The fishermen paying the 50 cents for the fish are going to get fish
for there traps one way or another, the things just don't work without bait.
So what's the big deal?  

Mike

    The big deal is that they are wasting a valuable resource.  Doesn't
    it make more sense for them to use the remains of fish that have
    already been fillet for the market?  Besides blues are lousy bait,
    the flesh is too soft and breaks up too fast in the trap.  Yellow
    tail carcasses make much better bait as they hold up much longer.
                                        
    Jeff (who has pulled many a pot)

> 	The fishermen paying the 50 cents for the fish are going to get fish
> for there traps one way or another, the things just don't work without bait.
> So what's the big deal?  

	At Hilton's, they just throw the fish overboard into the river -
	crab food - according to the mates.  Such a waste... 

	For the party boat Gaf n' Release problem, maybe someone could 
	invent 8-foot-long needle-nose pliers :-)  Be hard to fit in the 
	back pocket though...

	/Ken

 When I am fishing for blues for fun, I use a 20' shock leader. If it's
heavy enough, you can use it to pick the fish right up into the boat. The 
fish does thrash around abit, but can be unhooked with care. A fish that
has thrashed around and is released stands a much better chance than a gaffed 
fish. Blues are tough to lip gaff unless so tired that their chances for
survival are already slim.

 The Doctah